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Feed wire sizing to my garage

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stupoty

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#61
Same, but mine are fluorescent rescued from the skip when my (very eco-conscious) workplace went over to LED lighting - positioned to light the main breaker panel for house and shop as well as the spinny sharp things, cost me not a penny apart from the twin & earth to wire them in!

Dave H. (the other one)
Not a penny now that's a total bargain :) I've got a couple of T8 LED "Tubes" I think you can upgrade to them when your tube gets dim. Presumably the current battery backup in your maintained fitting drives a 240v inventor so might be compatible. I'm driving mine with T8 end caps wired direct to 240v no drivers.

(apologies for dragging the posts off topic) :0

Stuart
 

Rustrp

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#62
Well, if I offended you, don't think you are somehow in a small group of people. I offend a LOT of people.
That being said.
First question I would ask on this, why do you need to bury the cable to begin with? Is there a law that says it can't be done with areal cable?
Poles are reasonably cheap if needed and you could run areal wire out to the building and eliminate the trench and rigid pipe path.

Now for a bit of reason to do as much as you can instead of going with a minimum.
Say you feed it with the 3 runs of 12/2 that someone suggested. And then a killer deal on a larger lathe that needs 30 amps to run falls in your lap. 12 gauge wire is good for 20 amps not 30.
Point here is finding machines on the used market is sort of funny when you are on a budget. First the little table top 110 units are there. The Central Machinery stuff from harbor freight and similar low buck low quality gear. Then you get into the mid sized gear that people want new prices for (at least in my area of central Ohio and you aint far enough away that Ohioians aren't buying there) and it's 40 years old or better. But that's what everyone wants so they will pay the premium. Then you get into the bigger industrial gear that is heavy and hard to move and the price goes back down. But that stuff uses bigger motors and requires more power. But it's cheap to buy. Dragging something home to find out it can't be used sucks alot more than not having it at all. Trust me. I too know about being broke. Watching stuff rust away that I didn't have the money to invest in at the time and it sat and was ruined.

As far as how to do it on a shoestring.
First it doesn't ever happen overnight. It takes time to put together everything you need to do a project. Electrical systems don't come in a box that you buy and assemble. And that's actually a good thing, because you can buy your wire this week or month or whatever and maybe get some 4 square boxes to put outlets in and then next week get the outlets and faceplates. Once you have that stuff then it's the panel. and then later the breakers. do it slowly and it will come together.
The other thing to do is check the scrap yards for rolls of wire and long sections of cut wire.
As long as it's long enough and the correct gauge then it will work. Color isn't important. If it's all orange, so be it. You grab a roll of white, black, red and green tape and mark your conductors.

So don't be offended,,, be motivated to figure it out. Or be offended and let that motivate you. Yes, family comes before all else. Don't assume I don't know about that either.
There's no law that says it can't be done above ground (aerial) but the laws are are more plentiful on how you go about doing it. The task of getting the wiring into and out of the building are more complicated. Just one example.
 

4gsr

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#63
You can do as I did a few years back when I had my 20" L & S lathe. I ran 90 feet of 6ga. SO cord from the meter/breaker box to the lathe. Tied to a 50 amp breaker or I should say, had a 50 amp outside plug mounted on the breaker box that the SO cord connected to. Worked out nice. When not in use, unplug, roll up the SO cord, yeah, 90 feet of 6 ga. cord gets heavy, too, put away in storage. I have several lengths of SO cord that I use for various machine/motor applications in my shop. And yes, I use a appropriate amperage size breaker/fuses for each installation.
 

Keith Foor

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#64
Thought of something else. In sourcing a panel and the feeder cable for the main run to the barn.
Find houses that are being torn down and ask for the panel and wire. Don't bother with pulling wire out of the wall but a workable panel is a workable panel. Also, if the house had overhead feeder coming from the street then grab that too.
It will typically be aluminum wire but that's ok.
It's common to be spliced together so if you need to get 3 sections and put them together to make it work then that's ok as well.
Thing with joining them is they have to have crimped barrel connectors used to be done right.
The tools for these barrels are very pricy so have an electrician do the splices on the cable.
 

magu

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#65
So on the note of running above ground.... I'm putting in a fence that will run directly from the back corner of the house to the garage. While certainly not orthodox, would there be anything wrong (code wise) with running along the fence? Im thinking I could run ridgid or thermoformed pvc under the botom rail? 1" I could out a facce board on the inside of the rail to hide it, and it would be off the ground and away from danger.
 

jim18655

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#66
So on the note of running above ground.... I'm putting in a fence that will run directly from the back corner of the house to the garage. While certainly not orthodox, would there be anything wrong (code wise) with running along the fence? Im thinking I could run ridgid or thermoformed pvc under the botom rail? 1" I could out a facce board on the inside of the rail to hide it, and it would be off the ground and away from danger.
No problem at all as long as you can meet the support requirements and it's protected from damage. PVC should have an expansion fitting for the length so it doesn't twist and bow and pull the straps off. Good idea.
 

tq60

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#67
Before spending bucks or labor make a few sketches and call them plan a to plan X and visit your local building department and they will give correct advise to what is required where YOU LIVE.

It may be less work or money and be better too...better to ask.


Another way to "cheat" is to use a plug in to connect.

Say it is a 50 amp total then at the main panel install a 50 amp outlet and use 50 amp plug and wire to supply sub.

Now it is nothing more than an extension cord...used that trick way back when inspector was having fits due to too many staples holding romex...Second inspector gave advise to circumvent first pain in rear inspector.


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337Z using Tapatalk
 

LarryJ

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#68
Are you using direct bury cable or conduit? You could save on the expense now by installing a large (2") PVC conduit and up-size the wire later. It's more expensive overall but might help you out now. I wouldn't do less than 100 amps for the equipment you listed. The welder might have substantial draw and don't forget about running some type of heat in the winter.
That's a great idea, Jim, and it wouldn't cost but $50-100 to do.
 

LarryJ

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#69
Hi all, I'm looking for some advice. I'm looking to add power to my detached garage so I can run my machines and do a bit of tinkering. My question is what size wire I need, the run will be 70', it will power some lights (>2amps), a little old radio, and 1 thing at a time (it's just me, I can't weld, run a mill and a sander all at once). I will be installing a 1 HP vfd to power both my mill and lathe (240 3ph, 3/4 and 1/2 Hp respectively) I will also install 8 outlets.

Can I use 12/3g wire for this?

My plan would be to put half the lights and half the outlets on each circuit breaker, that way if I blow a breaker I won't lose all my lighting. I would then use both legs to feed my vfd as well.
Lighting on one leg and outlets on the other is the norm, I believe.

Ditto the suggestions to put in a load panel. A 200a service box is only $40 more than a 100a, too. If you're doing it yourself, you're already saving $500-1,000, so splurge. <g>

I'd run 12/3 in the shop for the 120v outlets and 10/3 for the 240v outlets for upgraded welders in the future. I added three 240v outlets in my 2-car shop after moving in and they'll handle the welders. Looking back, I should have put in five 240v outlets since I have wood and metalworking tools. Instead, I built a 30' 10/3 twistlock extension cord later.
 

autonoz

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#70
There are so many variables when deciding what to do. With what your doing I would not go less than a 60 amp sub panel. Now you will need to go on line and locate a chart that will give you the size wire which I am pretty sure is #6 and what size conduit you can run #6 through. If you use EMT you will want 3/4. Do your research and do it right the first time. Definately run seperate circuits for your outlets and lights. 20 amp for outlets with #12 wire. I just installed a 100 amp subpanel with main breaker in panel. #2 AWG wire through 1 1/4 conduit. All my shop circuits are 20 amp and will also be putting in 240 once I decide where my machines are going to be. Make sure your first outlet is a GFI, then your others can be regular outlest run in a series behind it. If your pulling a permit make sure you follow code as it will bite you in the hind end later. Also for safety reasons. I cannot stress enough to do the research on wire size, conduit size for wire fill, and j box sizes for wire fill. Also make sure you are not running more conductors through the size conduit you are using if you are running conduit inside and multipe circuits through the same conduit. Ground all boxes and use seperate neutral for each circuit. You can share grounds with more than one circuit. Again if running conduit inside go 3/4 conduit for multiple circuits it will make pulling wire much easier than through 1/2"
 

Blackjackjacques

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#71
For your small simple single phase system fed from 240 V - a quick way to figure out what you need -
Sum the kW ratings of all the equipment you think you will be running at the same time, and add a 50% load growth margin.
Then divide that number by 240 V to determine conductor ampacity (size).
So lets say you sum up the kW rating of all your simultaneous equipment to be 5 kW, for example. Plus 50% makes that 7.5 kW, and 7.5 kW/240 = 31.25 amperes. If you are using UF-B, you can use No. 8 protected by a 40 A 2-pole breaker Despite what the code permits, I never like to run UF without some protection, and I frequently use either liqua-tite flexible conduit, or PVC conduit.

If you doubled up No.4, then you have plenty of capacity and the doubling up of conductors may not be an issue for your jurisdiction. It will depend on what edition (and sections) of the NEC your jurisdiction adopts -- if any. Additionally, such a practice is permitted in many other venues and is an accepted and safe practice if basic rules are followed - which is likely the case in your circumstance of being installed by a licensed electrician.

Good luck
 
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