Face milling with a small mill.

just to add to darkzero's (which are right on!) comments, Stefan Gotteswinter tends to do very accurate work, and doesn't (usually) use indexable cutters on his mill. He does use brazed on carbides from time to time.

That's exactly what I mean. I have the same style mill as Stefan. I was surprised at the size tooling he uses. He rarely uses big endmills or indexable cutters like you said. Even his choice of vise, he uses a small tool makers vise where most of use are using big Kurt style vises! Because of him I'm starting to use 3/8" endmills more where before I used 1/2" the most.
 
3/8" is a nice size for endmills in many respects.

As far as the Superfly goes, its big advantage are the inserts Tormach pairs with it. The aluminum inserts are razor-sharp with lots of top rake. I'd guess 15 degrees of top rake on those inserts. They can chip if you aren't careful, but generally they leave a mirror finish on 6061 aluminum and will take a surprising DOC. I don't have the cut parameters I was using on the Tormach 770 at the office makerspace handy, but I think I was running 0.010" DOC at 1000 sfpm and 0.002" chipload or thereabouts. On my Taig at home I keep the DOC at 0.002" when using a fly cutter.
 
Ken, I had a mill very much like yours until Christmas, when I upgraded to a larger one (I may write it up when I get it working). I used 3/4" HSS 4 flute end mills for very light facing work (.010 DOC) and found it quite fast enough - and - it was quite fast to do a large surface. I used a smaller face mill in Aluminum, but the finish was no where as good as using an end mill.
 
For the past 2 days I have been using the search function here on what tools to use for face milling Aluminum and mild steel, especially when the milling machine the tool goes onto, is a mini mill.

Ken, let me play Devil's Advocate here for a minute. In your original post, you were looking for tooling to face aluminum and steel parts on a mini-mill. I assume by facing you are looking to produce a flat, smooth surface such as you would require when squaring a part at the start of the project. Is this still the goal or have you moved on to profiling?

Not to detract from the excellent discussion but I raise the question because if you're facing to square parts, end cutting with end mills are not the most efficient way to do that. Face mills will do it but your little mill is somewhat limited by the size you can use so, again, this is not the most efficient way to do the job.

If you are looking to face each surface so you can square it then the most efficient tool for that is a flycutter. It is not the only way, true, but it is the most efficient way and is likely to provide the best surface finish. If you are looking to face and size a part, a good flycutter will do this as well. Not only that, a flycutter requires the least amount of power for the surface area it cuts provided you are going for a facing cut instead of stock removal.

As I re-read this thread tonight I sort of got lost in all the information and while all of it has been interesting and educational, I wonder if the goal hasn't been lost.
 
Ken, when you are referring to the number of cutting points on a cutter, that is what is known as flutes. But keep in mind the number of flutes on an indexable cutter vs the number of flutes on an endmill is not really the same. For smaller than say .75" or so, you probably won't find an indexable endmill with more than 1 flute/insert. but let's just say that there was. The endmill will probably perform better cause it has a helix where the insert just has a single straight edge for each flute. Also at the end of the endmill, each flute has a longer very positive angle cutting surface than an insert which would just be a tip & dependent of the nose radius.

Not to discourage you but on a smaller size mill, you may just be better off with an endmill & not in such a large dia rather than an indexable endmill. On my larger benchtop mill, the largest endmill I use is 5/8" (but not for hogging). I can take deeper depths of cuts with a smaller dia endmill than I can with any of my indexable tooling. It may require more passes but in the end you still might be removing the large amount of material faster than an indexable. Also keep in mind with an indexable endmill & depending on it's geometry, you get some harsh beating similar to a flycutter so if you don't have a rigid machine, that will limit you as well.

Point is you can't always find an alternative for a good ol endmill. It may be that you just need to find the right type of endmill & I'm not sure if anyone talked about that yet. Try a 4 flute coarse roughing endmill for steel, so much more free cutting than a regular endmill for fast material removal. Or for aluminum try a 3 flute roughing endmill or even a high helix 3 flute. The high helix 3 flute endmills work great in aluminum.

What's interesting is that Stephan Gotteswinter even uses the 3 flute high helix endmills for roughing in steel. He also has an endmill shootout video.
hi DZ, great post ,thanks for the links , I probably have watched them twice already but even today I enjoyed watching his videos and reconfirm a points that already worked for me and my situation with a small mill.
I referred to the number of cutting point as points and not flutes for one reason and that was to compare two specific (indexable)end mills and decide which type of inserts would require less power to do its job, one had two TPG inserts ,each with a cutting radius 1/32" was doing the cutting and the other end mill had 3 APKT which the whole edge of the inserts would need to contact with the surface of the workpiece as oppose to the two points of the TPG inserts . saying two points versus three edges (I thought )would relay what I was imagining and inquiring about, better.

You and a few others correctly pointed"on a smaller size mill, you may just be better off with an endmill" which is the direction I'm looking at but for my face milling I'll go with 3/4" size to cover more surface in less time.
 
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Ken, let me play Devil's Advocate here for a minute. In your original post, you were looking for tooling to face aluminum and steel parts on a mini-mill. I assume by facing you are looking to produce a flat, smooth surface such as you would require when squaring a part at the start of the project. Is this still the goal or have you moved on to profiling?

Not to detract from the excellent discussion but I raise the question because if you're facing to square parts, end cutting with end mills are not the most efficient way to do that. Face mills will do it but your little mill is somewhat limited by the size you can use so, again, this is not the most efficient way to do the job.

If you are looking to face each surface so you can square it then the most efficient tool for that is a flycutter. It is not the only way, true, but it is the most efficient way and is likely to provide the best surface finish. If you are looking to face and size a part, a good flycutter will do this as well. Not only that, a flycutter requires the least amount of power for the surface area it cuts provided you are going for a facing cut instead of stock removal.

As I re-read this thread tonight I sort of got lost in all the information and while all of it has been interesting and educational, I wonder if the goal hasn't been lost.
Hi mike,I think this thread like many others I've seen,took a different direction for many good reasons but I , was looking for a cutting tool that was faster than my 1/2" roughing end mill to square parts, I never was after a nice finish, just to square up stock I have mainly used my roughing end mill, remember mike I could only take no more than .020" DOC with each pass on mild steel,( bit more on Aluminum ) so I said to myself,wouldn't it be great if I could do the same thing but faster?
This thread as I said made me learn what could actually would work with a mini mill without spending money to find out :D, based on what I've learned and what I know with my mini mill, I finally bought two end mills, one is a 3/4"(fine tooth) roughing end mill like Dabbler was suggesting in post #53 , to be used in facing roughing,end milling, squaring parts etc.if I needed a better finish I do have a fly cutter and will use that or my 3/4" regular 4 flute end mill, I tried this approach on a small piece of aluminum and I loved it.

My second purchase has not arrived yet but I kinda went against recommendations of the majority here and bought a 1" indexable end mill with two TPG222 inserts,3/4" shank, I have a good feeling it'll do just fine for light facing jobs, we'll see how it turns out.
I have come to the conclusion that end mills are my best friend as long as I have a small mill, I'm kind of resigned to the fact that I need to go slow and shallow with this mill ,I do like my fly cutter but all I have used it for was for a nice finishing job on a wider than usual stock,I normally don't need a nice finish and don't use wide stock so again,end mills have become my goto cutting tool.
Thank you again Mikey for all your help whether here or behind the scene with your pms and great advice.
Thank you all for contributions,thoughts and comments, I can safely say my initial inquiry has been answered and I think I have made an informed decision based on what I've learned from this thread.two thumbs up to every one.
 
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I referred to the number of cutting point as points and not flutes for one reason and that was to compare two specific (indexable)end mills and decide which type of inserts would require less power to do its job, one had two TPG inserts ,each with a cutting radius 1/32" was doing the cutting and the other end mill had 3 APKT which the whole edge of the inserts would need to contact with the surface of the workpiece as oppose to the two points of the TPG inserts . saying two points versus three edges (I thought )would relay what I was imagining and inquiring about, better.

Although it doesn't matter since you made your purchase already but I just wanted to point out that APKT inserts also cut on the corner & not on a full edge. Pretty much all polygon shaped inserts are configured this way. Cutting on a full edge will be much more prone to chatter (like with a lathe form tool). A round insert would have the most contact but a circle is not a polygon.

Please be sure to let us know how it works out. I'm very curious as well.
 
HeyKen, one last word on your purchases. Right after I sold it to him, they guy I sold my mill to bought an accusize facing mill in 2" and used it to face a 3/4" wide piece of hot rolled steel with the scale on. It left a beautiful finish (I nail tested it). He was only able to take a .010 cut with it, and I suspect it rattled the heck out of the machine.

So I predict that your 1" indexable end mill will work. A note on saving wear on your machine, however. Instead of the usual 2/3 engagement, try for 90% (to get less impact), and take shallow cuts (although each insert geometry needs a different minimum to work correctly - .004 is the bare minimum for any carbide at slow speeds). Please let us know what you find, and pictures are always appreciated! [.010 is a great starting spot]
 
I've been searching for a small face mill for my Clausing 8530. The largest collet I can use in the spindle is 1/2". Given that limitation can anyone suggest a source for a 1/2", straight shank, indexable face mill?
The smallest I've found is 3/4".
Thanks
 
I've been searching for a small face mill for my Clausing 8530. The largest collet I can use in the spindle is 1/2". Given that limitation can anyone suggest a source for a 1/2", straight shank, indexable face mill?
The smallest I've found is 3/4".
Thanks
Check out ebay,I found a few 1/2" all end mills with a single insert, here's one on Amazon:

Accusize - 1/2" 90 Deg Square Shoulder Indexable End Mill w/ APKT11T308 Inserts, #0056-0914
There's better description of this tool on Amazon .ca :
  • 90° Cutting angle;Screw down insert;Radial rake angle: -10°;Axial rake angle: +7°
  • All types of square shoulder face milling, side milling and full slot milling (shaft end mills) of steels, alloyed steels, stainless and heat resistant steels, case irons and aluminum alloys.;
  • Fitted with 10° positive rectangular insert allow high depth of cut and feed per tooth
  • Uses APKT / APHW / APKR_APHT / APMT insert (sold separately);Cutting Diameter D: 1/2"
  • Shank d1: 1/2";OAL: 3-1/4";ap: 0.433";No of Insert: 1;Screw: M2.5 x 6.5;Insert: APKT11T308
 
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