Buying my first lathe

[Siggi]

Hey y'all,

apologies if this has all been hashed out here before, but I'm looking to buy my first lathe. The only experience I have is a high school class, which is now well behind me. I have a little Taig CNC machine, which has whet my appetite for metalworking for realz .
I've been reading up on what's what, and the general advice seems to be to buy the biggest lathe you can afford. I think the biggest lathe I can afford is going to come down to space. I'm pretty sure I can fit a 12x36, which also seems to be a reasonable size for getting a fully-featured lathe (e.g. cross power feed, reverse feed, quick-change gearbox, etc).
This is for general messing around, I don't really have any concrete projects lined up, as is - apart from e.g. building a touch probe for the mill.

I'm in Montreal Canada, and I've looked around a little bit for local dealers or used machines, not much I've found so far. Do you all know of options here?

I'm currently looking at the Grizzly G4003G vs. the Precision Matthews PM1236. They're fairly similarly priced and tooled, but what I like about each over the other is as follows.

Grizzly G4003G:

• Has a runout spec on the spindle and claims high-precision bearings.
• Has a D1-5 cam-lock mount vs. D1-4 on the PM.
• Has the 5*8 Norton quick-change gearbox.
• 1.57" spindle bore, vs. 1.5".

Precision Matthews PM1236:

• Has a foot brake.
• Has a feed clutch and carriage stop.
• Comes with a cast-iron stand (as an option).
• Max spindle speed is 1850RPM vs. 1400RPM for the Grizzly.
• Comes with a coolant system, though I don't expect that'll be much use to me.

I've had a chat with Matt over email (super-nice guy), and I'm currently leaning towards the PM1236. I wonder whether/how much I'll regret giving up the Norton gearbox, though. Are there other things/features I'm overlooking or should consider?

Siggi

 

[Bob Korves]

On the Grizzly, the runout spec may have little to do with reality, the D1-5 is much more expensive to buy tooling for, the tooling is more rare and harder to find, and I do not see the value of it if you do not have a significantly larger spindle bore. .07" larger does not really add much usefulness, unless I am missing something. Don't take me wrong, it is probably a fine lathe, and lots of them have been sold, but I do not see the gain in value for the increase in price.

The PM has a good reputation. The extra spindle speed will be useful.

 

[ezduzit]

Find a quality used machine in excellent condition that comes with a comprehensive set of tooling.

 

[Glenn Brooks]

Second what Bob said. If it were me, I'd buy the PM lathe - no question.

I have a d-1-5 spindle on my old 1950 standard Modern 12x48" Utilathe. D-1-5 tooling is very hard to find and expensive. Also the MT 4 and MT 5 spindles that usually go with D-1-5 lathes headstock and tailstock centers, drill chucks, etc, are more expensive and heavier - way overkill on a 12x36" Lathe.

If you decide to compare with used equipment, there is a used lathe dealer in Toronto that usually carries a bunch of Standard Modern Lathes. I think the company name is HH Roberts. Utilathes are fantastic, nice, robust lathes. Canadian built originally. They have 15 or so Utilathe in stock, according to their website. Pricing usually significantly cheaper than new.

Glenn

 

[mikey]

I wonder whether/how much I'll regret giving up the Norton gearbox, though. Are there other things/features I'm overlooking or should consider?

Siggi

So, instead of levers on the Grizzly, you have knobs that do the same thing on the PM1236 - you give up nothing other than levers.

The feed rod clutch is rarely used unless you're going to make an assault on your carriage stop; its more of a "just in case I walk away when I shouldn't" kind of thing rather than a useful thing.

I agree with Bob - D1-4 is more than beefy enough for a 12" lathe and the cost of a D1-5 chuck is considerably more, and they tend to be larger. I don't see what you'd gain.

A top speed of 1400 rpm is very slow for a lathe, especially if you plan to use carbide tooling. 1800 isn't much faster, though 1800 is better than 1400. My lathe goes to 2200 rpm and even that is marginal at times. Both will get down to about 65-70 rpm, which is faster than I would prefer but with no back gear, it is what it is.

If I were going to buy a 12" lathe today, I would seriously consider the PM 1236-T. Overall, a better Taiwanese machine with a beefy spindle and tailstock quill. Spindle run out =/- 0.0001" - not bad, and I would expect the reality to be better when I measured it. I'm not sure if this is a good first lathe but I could live with it for my last lathe. And besides, PM has a stellar reputation for after sales service and that alone would push me to a PM lathe.

Good luck. Tough decision in a class that has some really good players in it.

 

[Siggi]

So, instead of levers on the Grizzly, you have knobs that do the same thing on the PM1236 - you give up nothing other than levers.

It looks like the PM1236 offers a range of 20 feed settings from the gearbox, and you can get another 20 by switching change gears. The range of feeds looks to be 0.0019 through 0.0120 or 0.0078 through 0.048.

Of those 20 only 12 are valid gear cutting settings without changing gears, so in one setting you get 16, 18, 20, 24, 28, 30, 32, 36, 40, 48, 56, 60 all in with just knobs, then you need to change gears for 19, 38 or 22, 44, and 26, 52.

On the Grizzly you can choose any of 40 feed/thread settings without messing with change gears - whether this is going to matter to me in practice I don't know, but for a hobby lathe I put a bit of weight on convenience.

The feed rod clutch is rarely used unless you're going to make an assault on your carriage stop; its more of a "just in case I walk away when I shouldn't" kind of thing rather than a useful thing.

The PM1236 comes with a micrometer carriage stop, which seems like it's intended for repeatable feed stops?

A top speed of 1400 rpm is very slow for a lathe, especially if you plan to use carbide tooling. 1800 isn't much faster, though 1800 is better than 1400. My lathe goes to 2200 rpm and even that is marginal at times. Both will get down to about 65-70 rpm, which is faster than I would prefer but with no back gear, it is what it is.

Thanks, that's good data.

If I were going to buy a 12" lathe today, I would seriously consider the PM 1236-T. Overall, a better Taiwanese machine with a beefy spindle and tailstock quill. Spindle run out =/- 0.0001" - not bad, and I would expect the reality to be better when I measured it.

Yeah, I've looked at that one too, but it's a fair bit more money if you tool it up to match the PM1236. Also doesn't come with a cast iron stand, foot brake nor the feed clutch etc...
Clutches for klutzes .

Good luck. Tough decision in a class that has some really good players in it.

Thanks.

 

[Siggi]

Thanks everyone who's weighted in. Looks like the D1-5 is not the advantage I thought it might be, that's good to know.

Find a quality used machine in excellent condition that comes with a comprehensive set of tooling.

I'd dearly love to, but there doesn't look to be much to be had around this here frozen tundra I live in.

 

[Bob Korves]

then you need to change gears for 19, 38 or 22, 44, and 26, 52.

And how often do you plan to be using those threads? More threads are possible than the ones that are listed. Also look into what metric threads the lathes are capable of and how you get there...

 

[ezduzit]

...there doesn't look to be much to be had around this here frozen tundra I live in.

You are considering a new one which is shipped from Taiwan. Not sure I see the problem with local availability.

 

[Siggi]

And how often do you plan to be using those threads?

Well, I guess that's the $0.20 question, innit .

You are considering a new one which is shipped from Taiwan.

I'd much prefer a gently used older lathe, with scads of tooling for less money. I'm considering new mostly because I'm not finding anything used available around where I live.