5/8 precision chuck run out

Driveslayer45

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has anyone purchased one of these recently and if so what does your run out look like? Just got mine from PM Thursday night, put it in the mill and put a TI on it to see about .004" run out using a 1/2 endmill. tested at the nose taper and on an endmill. The same endmill in a collet has no runout, at least not within the range for me to measure. The specs on the PM site say .001, so .004 seems excessive. i emailed PM Thursday evening but not heard back yet. just wondering what everyone else's thoughts are.
 
has anyone purchased one of these recently and if so what does your run out look like? Just got mine from PM Thursday night, put it in the mill and put a TI on it to see about .004" run out using a 1/2 endmill. tested at the nose taper and on an endmill. The same endmill in a collet has no runout, at least not within the range for me to measure. The specs on the PM site say .001, so .004 seems excessive. i emailed PM Thursday evening but not heard back yet. just wondering what everyone else's thoughts are.
Seems really high to me, especially if you have <<0.001" TIR as a baseline. What is the chuck mounted to? Check the taper, etc.
 
has anyone purchased one of these recently and if so what does your run out look like? Just got mine from PM Thursday night, put it in the mill and put a TI on it to see about .004" run out using a 1/2 endmill. tested at the nose taper and on an endmill. The same endmill in a collet has no runout, at least not within the range for me to measure. The specs on the PM site say .001, so .004 seems excessive. i emailed PM Thursday evening but not heard back yet. just wondering what everyone else's thoughts are.

Are we talking a drill chuck here? A link would help.
 
I assumed PM's Precision keyless chuck, but that's an excellent question.
 
Can you tell us where the run out is coming from? I know that sounds facetious but you are reporting 0.004" TIR on the shank of an end mill and there are numerous interfaces in between the spindle and that end mill.
  • Is this an integral chuck or is it a chuck with a Jacobs taper installed on an R8 arbor? This is two interfaces.
  • What is the run out inside your spindle taper, taken at and averaged over three separate spots in the taper? This is your baseline and without it you cannot attribute any deviation to a thing inserted in the spindle taper. This is another interface.
  • And then there is the effect of clamping something in a 3 jawed thing. This is the interface with the biggest potential for run out.
A drill chuck typically has 3 jaws. The way to look at this is like a 3 jaw chuck on your lathe. As we all know, putting something that is precision ground into a 3 jaw chuck will cause substantial run out simply because it is a second operation chucking. In order to have that precision part run true you must either dial it in with a 4 jaw independent chuck if accuracy is important or use a collet if accuracy must be close and fast.

Due to the nature of the beast, a drill chuck will tighten variably because it relies on a threaded spindle. Depending on the diameter of the thing being clamped, the jaws will locate on that threaded spindle at different spots and those spots will differ every time you clamp something in the jaws. The same thing happens with a lathe scroll chuck; different spots in the scroll causes the jaws to run out like crazy.

So, expecting low run out on a drill chuck is expecting a lot just based on the mechanics of the thing. Throw in all those interfaces and you have an even greater amount of uncertainty.

The other thing to understand about drill chucks is that not all chucks are made equal. The jaws of a 1/2" Albrecht chuck are ground and hardened. Each jaw is 0.195" thick and are accurately machined. The jaw guide is likewise machined and hardened and then ground. The spindle is a precision ground Acme leadscrew and the head of that spindle has slots to match the machined contours of each jaw. When the chuck is closed on a round thing, everything moves pretty precisely and repeatedly but even an Albrecht chuck will run out due to the nature of a 3 jawed thing; it has a run out of less than 0.04mm/0.0016".

Sorry, didn't actually intend to go off like this but drill chuck accuracy, while important, has to be tempered with the knowledge that a drill is not a precision tool. Just the drill alone will add thousandths of inches of run out all by itself so if the chuck is anywhere close to 0.002 TIR (and you're sure its the chuck and not something else) then I wouldn't be too concerned about it.
 
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sorry i should have included a link but i was on my phone.. i am referring to the PM precision 5/8 keyless drill chuck. https://www.precisionmatthews.com/shop/58-high-precision-keyless-drill-chuck/

"What is the chuck mounted to? Check the taper, etc." <-- it's mounted in the R8 spindle of my PM-727v, which when measured with the same test indicator (TI) has no measurable run-out (by me)

"Can you tell us where the run out is coming from?" <-- my initial response is 'if i knew that i might not be asking anything', but as that is probably a little to glib since you're trying to be helpful i'll say i am not sure. i measured it at the top smooth section above the gripping surface and on the tapered nose, the smooth area. both show about the same. which also is close enough to the reading i get on the endmill to make me believe its something in the mount.

I ordered this particular one because i wanted an integrated chuck and its advertised run out is .001"

"drill is not a precision tool." <-- so i recognize this as true, and everything else you said i accept as so.. when i use a collet (which i know is more accurate) and the same end mill shaft i get no readable runout I have to believe the chuck is out of spec .. but if you can tell me how i should check it i certainly will, perhaps I am completely wrong in my procedure and expectation.
 
Can you tell us where the run out is coming from? I know that sounds facetious but you are reporting 0.004" TIR on the shank of an end mill and there are numerous interfaces in between the spindle and that end mill.
  • Is this an integral chuck or is it a chuck with a Jacobs taper installed on an R8 arbor? This is two interfaces.
  • What is the run out inside your spindle taper, taken at and averaged over three separate spots in the taper? This is your baseline and without it you cannot attribute any deviation to a thing inserted in the spindle taper. This is another interface.
  • And then there is the effect of clamping something in a 3 jawed thing. This is the interface with the biggest potential for run out.
A drill chuck typically has 3 jaws. The way to look at this is like a 3 jaw chuck on your lathe. As we all know, putting something that is precision ground into a 3 jaw chuck will cause substantial run out simply because it is a second operation chucking. In order to have that precision part run true you must either dial it in with a 4 jaw independent chuck if accuracy is important or use a collet if accuracy must be close and fast.

Due to the nature of the beast, a drill chuck will tighten variably because it relies on a threaded spindle. Depending on the diameter of the thing being clamped, the jaws will locate on that threaded spindle at different spots and those spots will differ every time you clamp something in the jaws. The same thing happens with a lathe scroll chuck; different spots in the scroll causes the jaws to run out like crazy.

So, expecting low run out on a drill chuck is expecting a lot just based on the mechanics of the thing. Throw in all those interfaces and you have an even greater amount of uncertainty.

The other thing to understand about drill chucks is that not all chucks are made equal. The jaws of a 1/2" Albrecht chuck are ground and hardened. Each jaw is 0.195" thick and are accurately machined. The jaw guide is likewise machined and hardened and then ground. The spindle is a precision ground Acme leadscrew and the head of that spindle has slots to match the machined contours of each jaw. When the chuck is closed on a round thing, everything moves pretty precisely and repeatedly but even an Albrecht chuck will run out due to the nature of a 3 jawed thing; it has a run out of less than 0.04mm/0.0016".

Sorry, didn't actually intend to go off like this but drill chuck accuracy, while important, has to be tempered with the knowledge that a drill is not a precision tool. Just the drill alone will add thousands of inches of run out all by itself so if the chuck is anywhere close to 0.002 TIR (and you're sure its the chuck and not something else) then I wouldn't be too concerned about it.
@mikey, this looks like another one of your well written guides that you might write up and we'll get it into the download section.



Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk
 
@mikey, this looks like another one of your well written guides that you might write up and publish in your book.



Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk

FTFY ;)
 
Okay, that helps a lot. So, your PM-727 has zero spindle run out - that's very good, by the way! You are using an integral chuck so that eliminates two potential interfaces. Now we need to determine if that shank is accurate. If it is, then all other run out should be attributable to the chuck itself.

Here's the part I'm not clear on. You said, "i measured it at the top smooth section above the gripping surface and on the tapered nose, the smooth area. both show about the same. which also is close enough to the reading i get on the endmill to make me believe its something in the mount." I think you're saying you checked the exposed part of the R8 shank, the nose of the chuck and the end mill shank and got the same reading of 0.004", is that right? If so, then that shank is not accurate and it might be time to return or exchange it since it clearly exceeds their stated run out specs.

If you do return it, it might be a good idea to tell them how you checked it and the method used; you checked static run out of the spindle and got zero, then checked the R8 shank mounted in that spindle and got 0.004", and so on. It will leave them no leg to stand on and they will have to work with you to resolve it.

Good luck.
 
@mikey, this looks like another one of your well written guides that you might write up and we'll get it into the download section.

I thought about doing a "How to check concentricity in the hobby shop" once upon a time. Might be time to put that back on the radar because it is a source of frustration for our guys. Let me think on it for a bit. Then I have to find the time to do it. If I don't get something up inside of a month or so, remind me, Dan.
 
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