12" machinist level

The level I use is the Moore and Wright ELM engineers' level. It has a resolution of .0035 inches per foot A description can be found here.

The Starett 98-8 or 98-12 are just fine for any machine setup. They are good to .005" per foot.

I should add that the only machines in my shop that are level are my metal lathes. That's for convenience of getting close to bed alignment before the 2 collar (or 'dogbone') test.
 
No disrespect meant but let me offer another perspective on the utility of precision levels. I move my lathe at need and have helped move and level my friend's lathes more times than I care to remember. I use a Starrett 98-6 for preliminary leveling only and use a Kinex precision level to do the precision leveling. The difference between the two levels is speed.

A Starrett 98 is not very sensitive. If you put it next to my Kinex and move the surface enough to move the Starrett bubble one line, you will peg the bubble on my Kinex to one side. If you level the surface with the Starrett so the bubble is centered, you might get the Kinex to approach center, maybe. This relates to speed in that to do a final level you will need to do a 2-collar test. If the lathe is sorta level with a Starrett 98, it can take literally hours of test cuts to get close to level and I'm not joking. You'll cut, adjust the one leveler, cut, adjust, check the bubble and find it hasn't moved, cut, adjust and so on. Eventually, you settle for close enough is good enough. I'm not making this up; this is from personal experience and it is why I own a precision level.

With my Kinex, I am usually one or two cuts away on a 2-collar test from being dead level. That means zero difference between the two collars.

The difference is speed.
 
I do agree with what you said: My technique differs, and with my 3.5 thou per foot/div level I get pretty close, and my '2 collar' is usually in the range of about .002. I'll get more practice this month as I am rebuilding my 15X60 and moving all 3 lathes to new locations in my shop...

I find fiddling with the precision level (Mine is .00025 per foot/div) takes me as much time as doing the last bits in the 2 collar. Just personal preference and using what techniques are comfie for us. :encourage:

My tagline used to be "put 10 machinists in a room and you'll have 20 ways to do something"
 
Thanks, Dabbler.

About a year ago, I finished adding 300 square feet to my shop so now my lathe sits in one place. For years prior, I had to move that lathe if I needed space. Since it is on leveling casters, I just moved it and re-sited it afterwards. I had to level and calibrate it every single time and I cannot begin to count how many times this happened. I own an Emco Super 11 and it is capable of great accuracy if I take the time to level it well. Having a precision level greatly sped up the process, which is why I am convinced that these levels are worth the time it takes to calibrate them and then learn how to use them.

Here is one example of the 2-collar test results I took for an article I wrote. The lathe was leveled with my Kinex level and the 2-collar test was done to finalize it.

emco.JPG

As I recall, this sequence took all of 10 minutes to do.

I meant no disrespect. I just wanted to make it clear that there is a clear utility to these precision levels.
 
mikey said:
No disrespect meant but let me offer another perspective on the utility of precision levels. I move my lathe at need and have helped move and level my friend's lathes more times than I care to remember. I use a Starrett 98-6 for preliminary leveling only and use a Kinex precision level to do the precision leveling. The difference between the two levels is speed.

A Starrett 98 is not very sensitive. If you put it next to my Kinex and move the surface enough to move the Starrett bubble one line, you will peg the bubble on my Kinex to one side. If you level the surface with the Starrett so the bubble is centered, you might get the Kinex to approach center, maybe. This relates to speed in that to do a final level you will need to do a 2-collar test. If the lathe is sorta level with a Starrett 98, it can take literally hours of test cuts to get close to level and I'm not joking. You'll cut, adjust the one leveler, cut, adjust, check the bubble and find it hasn't moved, cut, adjust and so on. Eventually, you settle for close enough is good enough. I'm not making this up; this is from personal experience and it is why I own a precision level.

With my Kinex, I am usually one or two cuts away on a 2-collar test from being dead level. That means zero difference between the two collars.

The difference is speed.
Click to expand...
Let me ask this, @mikey Would you use the Starrett to get the table that the lathe is on, close, then use the Kinex to get it dead on? From there (and this is where we probably differ), I would then do a collar test and adjust twist in the bed. To me leveling the lathe on the table which is level is just quadrupling the work. Again, for me, as long as the table is level and the lathe is cutting dead on, I'm happy. I tried to level the ways on a level table and I was chasing that for a long while, just to change it so the collar test was acceptable.
 
mikey said:
Thanks, Dabbler.

About a year ago, I finished adding 300 square feet to my shop so now my lathe sits in one place. For years prior, I had to move that lathe if I needed space. Since it is on leveling casters, I just moved it and re-sited it afterwards. I had to level and calibrate it every single time and I cannot begin to count how many times this happened. I own an Emco Super 11 and it is capable of great accuracy if I take the time to level it well. Having a precision level greatly sped up the process, which is why I am convinced that these levels are worth the time it takes to calibrate them and then learn how to use them.

Here is one example of the 2-collar test results I took for an article I wrote. The lathe was leveled with my Kinex level and the 2-collar test was done to finalize it.

View attachment 323101

As I recall, this sequence took all of 10 minutes to do.

I meant no disrespect. I just wanted to make it clear that there is a clear utility to these precision levels.
Click to expand...
@mikey so loosening the the front foot a 1/4 turn, I'm going to assume SOMETHING wasn't level when checking after operations were over?
 
GunsOfNavarone said:
Let me ask this, @mikey Would you use the Starrett to get the table that the lathe is on, close, then use the Kinex to get it dead on? From there (and this is where we probably differ), I would then do a collar test and adjust twist in the bed. To me leveling the lathe on the table which is level is just quadrupling the work. Again, for me, as long as the table is level and the lathe is cutting dead on, I'm happy. I tried to level the ways on a level table and I was chasing that for a long while, just to change it so the collar test was acceptable.
Click to expand...

My personal approach to leveling is to use the Starrett 98-6 on the cross slide first. I remove my compound and use the 98-6 to get the cabinet pretty level in X and Z. Once the cabinet is pretty level, I use a machinist's square to site the 98-6 so it sits in the center of the cross slide and square to the X-axis. Then I adjust the levelers under my lathe to get it square on top of the cabinet. I level it at the chuck end, then the tailstock end with the 98-6. Then I switch levels and put my Kinex square on the cross slide and repeat this process, again using the levelers under the lathe. Once this is done and the lathe is level according to the Kinex, I lock the lathe down to the cabinet and confirm the level has not moved. Then I move on to a 2-collar test.

When I do a 2-collar test, I usually use the levelers under the cabinet to tweak the final level. The ones under the lathe are too sensitive and it changes when I tighten them to lock the lathe down so I use the cabinet levers instead. This works well and is much faster for me to do. It is surprising how much the cabinet can influence the lathe but we're talking tenths here. For what its worth, this is how my process has evolved.

I have done many trials to hone this process down to its simplest form, mostly in self-defense. From start to finish, if I am very lucky, I can move my lathe and get it level in less than half an hour. Typically, I do not have to level the lathe on the cabinet. I can usually just level the cabinet and run a 2-collar test and get it done quickly but if I have done heavy work on the lathe then yes, I may have to adjust the lathe levelers, too. Then it take a little longer.

I normally check my level every six months as part of my semi-annual maintenance routine so that precision level is an important part of my kit.
 
GunsOfNavarone said:
@mikey so loosening the the front foot a 1/4 turn, I'm going to assume SOMETHING wasn't level when checking after operations were over?
Click to expand...

Let's make sure we're clear on what level means. Using a precision level to get the lathe "level" simply means the bubble is dead center when you're done. Since my level is sensitive to 0.02mm/M, level is pretty damned level BUT it is not dead on level. No spirit vial is level to the tenths over the length of the lathe. To get the final leveling done, a 2-collar test is about as mandatory as it gets. The 2-collar test allows us to dial in that last bit of resolution we need to make us feel comfortable that the lathe is as level as we can get it.

You can ask anyone who has leveled a lathe before. The ability to simply dial in a lathe to tenths tolerances by turning a cabinet leveler is a big deal.
 
Agreed with you on the tenths thing.

No offense taken.

It's just that I haven't used my precision level (.00025 in/ft/div) in about 10 years. I do everything the same as you, but I'm using a level with a little more resolution than the Starret 98, and so I get to skip the one step.
 
I should add that a well-leveled lathe will change over the ensuing two weeks or so. It may be dead level today but two weeks from now, it will not be. It may take another tweak on your levelers to re-level it and then it will usually stay put for a while. If you do heavy work or do a lot of roughing, things can move. You need to check your level if this happens and you should also check it from time to time to make sure the lathe retains its accuracy.
 
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