Wiring for New Vintage Pushbutton Box

Susan_in_SF said:
Hi
I ran into a beautiful vintage power hacksaw. I have no pics of it now since, due to its weight, I had to remove the cast iron lathe-like legs off to load into my car. I bought this vintage NOS pushbutton switch for it. It is a Westinghouse model 1033369 E. I could not find any wiring info online. Before turning to a $100/hr electrician (San Francisco rate last time I hired one), I was hoping someone here can tell me how to wire this station. Here are some pics.
Thanks, Susan
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I think we need a little more information about the saw. Being "vintage" and on a cast iron stand it sounds like it might have been an industrial or commercial model. If it is, it's likely that it is a 3 phase motor and could be greater than 1 hp. I have an older Racine power hacksaw that uses a 3 phase 1 1/2 hp motor. They made other similar models with 2 hp 3 phase motors. I would guess yours is a 6"x12" dry cut saw in that you said you could disassemble the legs it and put it in your car. The wet cut saws of the same size generally run in the 600 lb. to 800 lb. range so I doubt you could load it into anything smaller than a pickup truck.

So far everyone has made the assumption the switch will match the wiring and phase requirements of the saw. Unless I missed it the OP hasn't given us any information what so ever about the saw. We have no idea of the hp, voltage or phase requirements.

Please give us a little more information.
 
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This is an informative thread, BUT please remember that you guys can disagree without being disagreeable. That is what distinguishes our forum from some others. Certainly, guys as smart as you can make your points without using words that someone will take offense to, like "ignorant", "fool" or "suck it up". There are people from all over the world on this forum and everyone is welcome and has something to offer.

Remember the Golden Rule here:

DO NOT BULLY OR DISPARAGE OTHERS:
6. You agree that you will treat everyone with respect. You agree not to bully others with your opinions or disparage their opinions. Public tantrums, threats to leave, etc. will not be tolerated. This forum is about machining, let's keep it there! Cyberbullying will NEVER be tolerated on this site. If you are a regular on forums that permit or encourage this, you are unlikely to fit in here.
 
British Steel said:
Actually, no - there's a (rest of the civilised-) worldwide move towards double-pole switching particularly for power outlets serving "portable appliances" and within those appliances, I suggest you read the latest edition of the Wiring Regulations that apply in the UK (17th edition, with a few addenda while we work up to the next*) for a good "grounding" - THIS IS NOT AMERICA.

How the world outside the USA practices electrical installation - we don't split (centre-tap) a single 230-volt phase for two 115-volt services, our distribution is three phases each of 230v to neutral (which is at earth potential, or *should* be), domestic service is normally one of the three phases plus the neutral (which *may* be tied to local earth, called PME in European parlance, and IS ALWAYS earthed at the distribution transformer ("substation" in non-technical terms)), industrial / commercial service takes all three phases plus neutral for 230v (phase-to-neutral) ancillaries (lights, computers, small heaters, kettles :) ), 415v (phase-to-phase) for heavier loads (machinery, air conditioning, heating etc.).

Earth-leakage breakers aka ELCBs (similar in concept to the USA's GFCI which senses current actually from the ground wire so require adequate ground connectivity) have been overtaken by Residual Current Circuit Breakers or RCCBs, ( AKA Residual Current Devices, RCDs), they don't directly measure earth or neutral current, they measure imbalance in the supply (30mA is typical. they go as low as 5mA for medical applications, up to 100mA for use only to protect cabling, e.g. buried sub-mains) so should any current not flow in and out through the phase and neutral (or the 3 phases and neutral) indicating a current to earth, they trigger and shut down the supply. Hence the name "residual current"- they DO NOT rely on earth cable continuity, and will trip safely without a cabled earth if there's a "dangerous" current imbalance.

Rest-of-the-world wiring is rather different from the USA, e.g. if a neutral wire fails/goes faulty, we don't have appliances dying or catching fire, as there isn't the risk of low-power, low- (115) -voltage equipment finding itself supplied by 230v, ours is 230v all though and a failed neutral just stops everything working (BUT can leave everything potentially live through the other conductor - hence double-pole switching in case of phase-neutral reversals).

Some examples of common-or-garden household electrical fittings:
UK-standard RCD:
https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Images/Products/size_3/CPR100.JPG

Dual Pole switched (UK) sockets:
https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/BG822DP.html

Dual-pole MCB (Magnetic Circuit Breaker - found in consumer electrical supplies)
https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/CM9810B.html

"Incomer" main supply switch fitted at far end of a consumer unit - note it's double-pole:
https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Manufacturers/Contactum_C/CP_Range_Main_Switch/index.html


This is the site for my local electrical supplies house (part of a nationwide chain), no endorsement intended nor association other than as a happy customer! This is all vanilla, standard-fit stuff for homes / premises built since well before the last millennium ended.

Dave H. (the other one - and a qualified electrician for the UK, along with electronic engineer)


* BS 7671: 2008 (Seventeenth Edition) 3rd Amendment - 2015 . British Standards Institute, about $100 US, following it is *compulsory* for any electrical work that attaches to any kind of supply above 12 volts.
https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/BK1717slash3.html?ad_id=15790937220&source=msn&kw=wiring regulations&matchtype=e&qry=wiring regulations&msclkid=5c061636477a13c0fb064c87f981e464
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Actually, a North American Ground Fault Interruptor does work on current imalance and is not connected to ground per se. They are (last time I looked) allowed to be installed on old branch circuits that lack an earth conductor, as they are considered a substantial safety improvement.
 
Some very old US residential services have fused neutrals. I've never run into one but the advice is to replace the fuse with a piece of copper tube, or otherwise bypass the neutral fusing. It's more common in older houses with "knob and tube" wiring to find light switches in the neutrals and our house (1924) had some of this. Without color coding on the wires it was a bit of a pain to sort out. Up to maybe the early 1960s it would be common for a power tool to have a two-prong plug not polarized in any way. Obviously both legs needed to be switched else there would be a 50% chance of the frame being hot with the switch off. A lot of radios and TVs, though, had a line connected chassis. Now, with polarized plugs it may not be strictly necessary to switch both legs of a tool, but it's better practice to do so. Miswired outlets with hot and neutral reversed are not that unusual.

But this is a different issue from switching the neutral in building wiring. Occasionally this seems necessary when using a transfer switch and multiple sources--like say a generator. This can get a bit complex.
 
Bi11Hudson said:
The bottom line here is that we are here to assist a woman in San Francisco (Ms Susan) with an electrical problem. And last I checked, that city was inside the United States. They may do things in the UK the way they want things in the UK. But in this country, we do things the way things are done here. Like it or not, that's the way things are done here for the last couple of hundred years.
Edit
Bill Hudson​
Click to expand...
Thank you Bill!
 
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I appreciate all the various info/opinions. I apologize for the late reply. I had unexpected family medical issues to focus on. Anyways, for my little power hacksaw, the motor that was originally on it was a beat up single phase, 110v, 1725rpm, 0.5hp Delco motor. It looked seriously thrashed, so I left the motor with the seller since I have many vintage motors (in much better shape) with the same specs in my garage. I may put on a 3/4 hp motor on it, though. Even though it ins all cast iron, I all afraid of putting on all motor much larger than what was sold with it. I hope this info helps.
Susan
 
Susan if it was my switch the first thing I would be doing is testing the contacts with my ohmmeter and see if they are momentary or not. Then go from there. Maybe need to add a relay but I'm sure it could be made to work, and it sure looks cool.
Mark
 
There is a lot of fantastic information here- thank you guys for posting it.
 
@Susan_in_SF,

Does the saw already have any switches?
Either control off/on type or say a limit switch to turn it off at the bottom of the stroke?
If it has a limit switch, it may already have a relay too. Then we just need to be sure it's sized okay for the slightly bigger new motor.
-brino
 
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