When to trade cars

[Aaron_W]

Electronic controls will kill vehicles. The newer the vehicle the worst it gets. Unfortunately older cars are being sidelined as the repair parts are getting worst via quality controls from cheap and cheaper vendors and customers. Even a simple set of points is getting harder to find that last longer than 1000 miles. Cheap overpriced.

So it comes down to select the poison you want to die by.
Pierre

This is what I was going to say, all of these people talking about having 200,000, 300,000 miles on their cars have something in common (other than being Hondas and Toyotas), and that is they are older cars, 2000, 2010 etc. Sure part of that is it takes time to rack up those kinds of miles, but the more insidious part is those older cars are have far fewer critical systems to fail.

I'm concerned with the life expectancy of new cars going forward because of all the additional electronics in them.

I have a long history with Toyota, my first car was a 1989 Toyota Tercel, although I got it nearly new it already had issues caused by the prior owner. As a broke kid, I was terrible about keeping up with the maintenance. Despite real neglect I still got 250,000 miles out of it over an 8 year period. Next car was a 1996 Tacoma, I ran that until 2014, when it was wrecked with just shy of 300,000 miles. Currently have a 2008 Toyota Tundra with 220,000 miles and I have to keep reminding myself it is an "old" (16 years) truck because it doesn't act like it.

I've got a 2014 Subaru Forester with a touch over 100,000 miles on it. I've been very happy with it, but while it hasn't required any "are you kidding me" repairs, it has required more than any Toyota I've owned.
In fairness though Subaru kind of pushes technology. They were one of the first to offer a CVT (in the 80s) and they are relatively mechanically complex cars, with a weird engine (boxer), and full time all wheel drive. Comparing it to a Corolla or Civic is hardly a fair comparison.
I also suspect Subaru engineers parts to be good enough, but not too good for cost, and weight savings and sometimes their estimate of "good enough" isn't.
It is a small company selling kind of niche cars, so they have made some goofs in the name of efficiency. They will never live down the head gasket thing, even though it was only a thing for a few years on a specific engine. Since they have a very small line up making a goof is far more visible than with a large company like Ford or Toyota.
I had to have the rear wheel bearings on mine replaced at 100,000 miles, although it was only an $1100 repair, which these days is a pretty cheap repair. I've had cars with the original wheel bearings with over 200,000 miles on them. If you do a search of Subaru forums, the wheel bearings are a known issue.
My Forester is old enough that I don't have any of the "driver assist" stuff.
I've driven a lot of similar cars, RAV 4, Hundai Santa Fe and Tucson, Ford Escape, and we test drove a Honda CRV. I don't like any of them as much as the Forester. I just put 2000 miles on a 2024 Toyota RAV 4 in mixed driving, nice car, but I was happy to get back to my Forester. The Forester handles better, feels zippier, has better visibility, and I like the ergonomics of the cargo area better.

I think it is very fair to say Subaru is not a Toyota, or Honda. Honestly, I'm not sure if new Toyotas and Hondas can uphold the reputation of the older cars and trucks as the cars are so much more complicated. Are there going to be lots of 2024 Toyota Corollas the road in 2044? I'm not sure.

Anyway recommendations for a new car? No idea, I'm not sure myself what I'm going to do when the Subaru gets to a point where I'm not confident in its reliability. I may very well own the last "new" cars I buy. I travel a lot for work, and rent cars a couple times a year for 2 weeks at a time, giving me more than a test drive feel for them. I used to enjoy getting a rental, I got a new car for a couple of weeks. These days they are nice, but they are so busy with their driver assist, auto start stop etc and small windows (for crash safety) that rather than enjoying a new car, I find they make me very happy to get back to my "old cars".

That said this is how cars are going to be until we get our flying cars. Toyota or Honda are still probably the best option even if they can't live up to their past reputation.

 

[jwmay]

Anyway recommendations for a new car? No idea, I'm not sure myself what I'm going to do when the Subaru gets to a point where I'm not confident in its reliability. I may very well own the last "new" cars I buy. I travel a lot for work, and rent cars a couple times a year for 2 weeks at a time, giving me more than a test drive feel for them. I used to enjoy getting a rental, I got a new car for a couple of weeks. These days they are nice, but they are so busy with their driver assist, auto start stop etc and small windows (for crash safety) that rather than enjoying a new car, I find they make me very happy to get back to my "old cars".

I gotta say I really hope you’re wrong. Surely there will still be base model cars without all the fancy gadgetry?

If you’re right though, I guess I’ll just keep my sebring going. I’ll put a predator engine in it and keep rolling. Lol

 

[Larry$]

My history with older cars was mostly good. I could service them my self. No electronics. They lasted a couple of hundred thousand miles+. Now I don't know... Honda?? The local Toyota dealer is kind of a loser. Tesla is out of my price range but interesting. I like the idea of filling it up in the garage over night. Range is plenty for us.

 

[Aaron_W]

I gotta say I really hope you’re wrong. Surely there will still be base model cars without all the fancy gadgetry?

If you’re right though, I guess I’ll just keep my sebring going. I’ll put a predator engine in it and keep rolling. Lol

A lot of this stuff is mandated, so it is base equipment.
I am not aware of any new car that has not adopted the "tablet" in the dash center. Some of more distracting that others, and they seem to have been standard equipment since 2010-ish. My 2008 Tundra doesn't have one, my 2014 Forester has a small one, most of the rental cars I get have a rather large one.
Since 2008 a back up cameras or radar / sonar detector has been required to help prevent backing into pedestrians. In 2018 it was changed so that only back up cameras meet this requirement.
Start / stop systems are not required, but pretty much all cars include them now, as I believe it helps them meet CAFE standards.
Automatic braking systems are common and there is talk of it being mandated in the next few years.
Lane keeping systems are very common but not required and I haven't heard of any proposals to require them, yet...

I think buying a new car without all of this stuff will soon be like finding a new car with a manual transmission. I'm seriously thinking about dumping some money into my 1985 Volvo 240 and using it as a daily driver again if the Subaru starts giving me too much trouble.

 

[Jake M]

I gotta say I really hope you’re wrong. Surely there will still be base model cars without all the fancy gadgetry?

If you’re right though, I guess I’ll just keep my sebring going. I’ll put a predator engine in it and keep rolling. Lol

I think that's spot on. New cars do all kinds of things, and it's only going to get worse. The market wants more buttons and more touch screens. Even the most basic of the base models is going to that model. Everything takes multiple button pushes, on a touch screen or on a drill down menu, or on the equivalent of a drill down menu, there's so many switches you can't just bring your hand to them anymore, you've gotta look....

I just bought an "almost new" car (you can't buy these right now, it's a trade in from somebody who regretted the hybrid option for exclusively highway use), because the math for me (25000 miles per year) just doesn't support the "new" price for old simple cars, the OEMs don't support them with quality parts, and the aftermarket offers very inexpensive, yet very short lived replacements.
My "new" Maverick is by every metric a "nicer" car than the 1999 Ranger which it replaced. But starting with my high school beater, of all the vehicles I've owned, that Ranger to this day (I still own it), at not quite four hundred thousand miles, and 25 years old, is absolutely the most relaxing car I've ever driven. (I know they're "trucks", but neither of those is a "truck"... ). That ranger, I crank the window to where I want it and it stays there. Express windows? Screw that. Not just Ford, most cars, I'm trying to find the switch panel without looking down and just feeling the buttons has windows going everywhere... What is that? That ranger, when it's dark, I turn the lights on. New stuff? The dash is so convuluted that you can't see it without backlight, so instead of turning lights on at night, I've gotta bugger with dual dome light switches down low on the left dash to get the dashboard light to light up in the day time. And remember to shut it off, otherwise it's literally blinding when I get in before light in the morning. But that's better. The transmissions... Good lord the transmissions. That ranger just went into and stayed into whatever gear I put it in. And when I parked, I set the brake. When I left, I released it. Every time, every trip, everywhere. Now, it's a three step approval process (and on some now, you've gotta button click confirm the car's assessment of who's in the car and if they're belted in) to get out of part, auto neutrals if you're too stupid about shifting... And the auto parking brakes... Got to have the right handshake to get it to set, and three handshakes to get the damned thing to release. Thank god they did that, because in that old ranger, if I didn't release the brake, I might stall the engine and embarass myself when I'm leaving Walmart... So now I sit there embarassed at Walmart with an entire pre flight checklist before I'm allowed to go anywhere.... O dang, something I bought has confused the rear seat occupancy sensor and it needs to be removed... Thank goodness the particular one I bought is "dumb" enough to let me buckle the seatbelt to override that one, you know, if I wanted to put groceries in the back seat instead of an open bed? I guess I'm a rebel in that department aren't I... And the heater. I get it, people like automatic, and that's fine. Fifteen buttons/knobs to get that done... You have to look down and figure it out. And if you've got wet shoes, you've got to figure out how to outsmart the dam thing because it "thinks" you don't really want "max" on your feet, so it moderates that for you. And if you happen to enjoy driving with the windows down, forget it. That bugger is one confused little microprocessor trying to figure that out... At least that part only lasts until the inscessant droning starts, that modern cars do so violently with their sloped back windshields.....

Yeah, I hate it. But change is coming, and it's not stopping. And for all my squalking, I am actually happy to have my new car. I drove that Ranger half of it's life and the better chunk of it's miles. it's had a good life. So I do my best to embrace what is in my financial best interest, and I can't make financial or practical sense of keeping an older car going, because the ones that are capable of that, they're getting too old to do that. But I've gotta say that every time I do drive that ranger (It's staying until the plates and insurance time out), that ranger is a relief. That's how it's supposed to be. Simple, easy, intuitive, and just does what I ask. Never any more, and never any less. And outside of steering, you could do it blindfolded. Tactile switches. Tactile radio buttons. They just work.

Oh yeah... The Phone thing- I've got a visor thing in that Ranger. Touch once, and it's answered. Touch again, and it's hung up. What else do I want to do when I'm driving? The GPS in that Ranger, I mounted that on the rear view mirror mount. Zero mistakes (this was the Jeep that went away to get the new car,but still), that GPS is happy to tell me which lane to be in when I'm at a seven lane interchange with some stupid reverse crossover bridge thing where left goes right and right goes south, and I'm trying to stay east... It has NEVER held back a driving direction because the phone needed answered before it could make up it's mind which was more important. That was the final straw (there are LOTS of other straws), that was the final straw, and my phone will never again be giving me directions to anywehre....

But it's all flashy and fancy and lighting up with things for me to touch.... So it's gotta be better, right?

Anyhow, yes, I'm venting a little, but as I said, time moves on. You can hold out as long as it's practicable, but at some point if you don't move on, you're just left behind. I moved on, on purpose (with regrets, but on purpose), because at some point, it's the only thing that makes any sense. And as I said, although I really resent some of these "mandatory improvements" and "market driven changes", I am happy to know that it is the right decision. Even if it is blowing up the dash and screaming at me to "stop now, collison allert" every time there's a parked in a driveway around the next corner, it's getting to where it's more frustrating (and more expensive) to fight it than it is to go along with it. It's the future, and I WILL learn to get along with it...

OK, one more vent- The new to me plow truck... Do you have any idea how long it took me to figure out how to turn off the bung hole tickler, since that's about the last activity I'd like to engage in when traffic is a problem. In all fairness it "probably" depends on how heavy you are and how you fit the seat, but really.... Thank goodness they made that one optional. Jeesh. Usedta be you had to drive to the other side of town for that sort of service.

Anyhow, rant over. New cars are different. There's a high concentration of us here who fear change, I'm one of 'em, but time moves on. It's not the end of the world, it's just different.

 

[Aaron_W]

My wife's Subaru Outback has 140,000 miles on it and was just at the dealers for an oil change and inspection. Two oil leaks, the semi-self driving system camera & computer have quit working, the check engine light is on continuously. They said it will need brakes on it's next service. Wife only wants the dealer to work on it because it's "safer." She likes that car. But I'm looking at how much it may cost to fix the electronics and oil leaks by a dealer and thinking maybe it's time for a new car. I always serviced my own cars. And drove them until they wouldn't go any more. We drove Hondas for a long time with less costs. My daughter drives a Toyota and it has cost quite a lot in repairs. Electronic failures, plastic parts breaking and a long list of stuff that should last the life of the car but.... Recommendations for a new car??

Getting back to your specific issues. If you can convince your wife to let you do some of the work, Subaru's are well designed cars and actually fairly easy to work on. Since they share many parts across the different cars, parts are not too expensive (relatively). Brakes are not a big deal, they are a wear item.

The electronic issues and check engine light are the things that would have me worried, but I don't do electronics and I don't own a reader to know what the check engine light is on for. The check engine light is on in my Tundra because one of the tire pressure sensors isn't working, that is in addition to the TPMS light... The check engine light could easily be nothing, it may just be telling you the driver assist stuff isn't working (duh).

Last have you priced new cars? Even a $5000-6000 repair would be palatable to me, so long as I wasn't worried I was throwing good money after bad.

 

[Larry$]

so long as I wasn't worried I was throwing good money after bad.

There's the catch!

 

[nobog]

I'd consider a Subaru if they got rid of that flat 4 and put a I4 in there.

 

[Jake M]

I'd consider a Subaru if they got rid of that flat 4 and put a I4 in there.

The new ones are a lot better than the older ones, by leaps and bounds, you don't need the Subaru Tune up every 60 to 90 thousand miles but that's still a problem. (The Subaru Tune Up if you don't know, pretty much entails taking the engine out, replacing the head gaskets, timing belt, water pump, cam seals, block seals, pretty much taking it down to a short block, and refreshing everything that has a gasket or a seal in it. They're simple, so it's not the undertaking it is on other vehicles, but it's still obviously a big deal). Anyhow, the new ones are Way improved in that department, but still not on par with "everybody else".
Anyhow, the I4 "could" happen if the market demands it, but it's gonna take redesigning the car, and pretty much giving up everything that makes a Subaru a Subaru. Their rather unbelievable AWD system (which as I say, most owners NEVER get to take advantage of), is what keeps them selling cars.
And the rust..... These things rust in the desert. I think Subaru is happy to let the maintenance drive the owner's to make a call on them, before they get "forced out" by the rust.
I agree, that'd be a wonderful thing, but I don't see it happening any time soon.

A Wankel engine would fit in there pretty nice. Those are seeing some new interest from several manufacturers, although I've got no idea if they're just being revisited on principal with newer manufacturing technologies, or if there's an actual development that's gonna get them over their own batch of "quirks".

 

[Larry$]

A Wankel engine would fit in there pretty nice. Those are seeing some new interest from several manufacturers, although I've got no idea if they're just being revisited on principal with newer manufacturing technologies, or if there's an actual development that's gonna get them over their own batch of "quirks".

I'd vote for an I4, simple easier to work on, last for ever. The Wankel is a neat idea but short life. Why is a V6 used? Miserable contraptions to service.