SolidWorks Maker Version

[extropic]

Long time SolidWorks user, worked as consultant since 1997 with SolidWorks. Might suggest for those looking for a replacement for SW to look at Onshape. Started by the folks that started SolidWorks and since it is web based there is nothing to install and it will run on any platform. It will run on an iPad too.

I just looked at Onshape website. Normally I abhor web based applications and cloud based anything. When you say "web based" is that the same as cloud based? Please clarify.
Another factor for me is data transmission charges. I wonder if you have any idea how many megabytes of transmission would be required to load the app, design a flat washer (simplest type of part) and save the file over the web? Same question for a more complex part/assembly of parts (your choice)? I hope you have some example of a more complex part/assembly that you can describe.

 

[gedkins]

I just looked at Onshape website. Normally I abhor web based applications and cloud based anything. When you say "web based" is that the same as cloud based? Please clarify.
Another factor for me is data transmission charges. I wonder if you have any idea how many megabytes of transmission would be required to load the app, design a flat washer (simplest type of part) and save the file over the web? Same question for a more complex part/assembly of parts (your choice)? I hope you have some example of a more complex part/assembly that you can describe.

A disclaimer first, I do not work for nor do I have any professional affiliation with Onshape or PTC, their parent company. Onshape is browser based and runs on AWS servers (the cloud). The only processing that takes place locally is the screen refresh. All of the processing is done in the cloud. This is the reason the lowly iPad or low level desktop can run it without bogging. For example, when saving a file, it's not saving it locally and shipping it up to the cloud, it's just saved on the cloud server. So there is very little data being pushed back and forth. The "app" is in the cloud entirely. You open a browser and log into your account and off you go. Like any other CAD system Onshape can make very complex geometry and assemblies. I only bring it up because Onshape has the benefit for users that are not savvy with loading software and license management because there isn't any of that. Now it's not cheap, keep in mind it competes directly with the likes of SolidWoks and Fusion, however, it is less expensive than SW Professional.

 

[extropic]

@gedkins, I understand your disclaimer. No problem. I just wanted to ask.
I don't understand your rationale when you write "For example, when saving a file, it's not saving it locally and shipping it up to the cloud, it's just saved on the cloud server. So there is very little data being pushed back and forth. The "app" is in the cloud entirely."
I think what you're saying may be that neither my file(s) nor the app is ever native on my machine. The only data transfer is for each and every keystroke/pick required to produce the design and the download a printable file. I just have no idea what those keystrokes add up to (Kbytes).
Since the personal version is free, It shouldn't cost much to do a test.

Another element that needs to be mentioned is that, for the free version, saved files are PUBLIC. The same CAD functionality With PRIVATE (on the cloud ) file storage cost $1500 per year at this time.

I guess I'll have to sign up for the free version and design a few flat washers.

Possible rant starting here: I'm asking you because of your stated experience going back to the 90's.
I was a ProE user (at a major aerospace electronics company) starting in the early 90's and ending when I retired in late 2003. I never had to transition to Wildfire. Over the years, I truly resented how PTC altered the user interface as new versions were released. I seem to be one of a minority who were completely comfortable with the pulldown menu based UI because I would create personal hot key sequences that worked perfectly for me. Adding new functionality, no problem. Superseding the previous UI style in favor of an Icon based system was unacceptable to me. What I resented was that PTC would drastically change the UI without regard to the impact on legacy users.

Did/does any developer respect legacy users enough to include a legacy user interface option when they release new versions?

I imagine that most every CAD system UI may be Icon based today (for the last 20 years for that matter). Therefore minor Icon adjustments are implemented with little negative impact on longtime users. That makes my question moot, doesn't it
The pulldown menu/hot key UI system worked great for me. With the little introduction I had to an Icon UI, looking over the shoulder of other users, I found it NON-intuitive or worse. The Icons were a foreign language that held no value for me and I didn't want to learn it.

Maybe a more answerable question is, are there any contemporary CAD systems that use the pulldown menu/hot key UI?

 

[gedkins]

@gedkins, I understand your disclaimer. No problem. I just wanted to ask.
I don't understand your rationale when you write "For example, when saving a file, it's not saving it locally and shipping it up to the cloud, it's just saved on the cloud server. So there is very little data being pushed back and forth. The "app" is in the cloud entirely."
I think what you're saying may be that neither my file(s) nor the app is ever native on my machine. The only data transfer is for each and every keystroke/pick required to produce the design and the download a printable file. I just have no idea what those keystrokes add up to (Kbytes).
Since the personal version is free, It shouldn't cost much to do a test.

Another element that needs to be mentioned is that, for the free version, saved files are PUBLIC. The same CAD functionality With PRIVATE (on the cloud ) file storage cost $1500 per year at this time.

I guess I'll have to sign up for the free version and design a few flat washers.

Possible rant starting here: I'm asking you because of your stated experience going back to the 90's.
I was a ProE user (at a major aerospace electronics company) starting in the early 90's and ending when I retired in late 2003. I never had to transition to Wildfire. Over the years, I truly resented how PTC altered the user interface as new versions were released. I seem to be one of a minority who were completely comfortable with the pulldown menu based UI because I would create personal hot key sequences that worked perfectly for me. Adding new functionality, no problem. Superseding the previous UI style in favor of an Icon based system was unacceptable to me. What I resented was that PTC would drastically change the UI without regard to the impact on legacy users.

Did/does any developer respect legacy users enough to include a legacy user interface option when they release new versions?

I imagine that most every CAD system UI may be Icon based today (for the last 20 years for that matter). Therefore minor Icon adjustments are implemented with little negative impact on longtime users. That makes my question moot, doesn't it
The pulldown menu/hot key UI system worked great for me. With the little introduction I had to an Icon UI, looking over the shoulder of other users, I found it NON-intuitive or worse. The Icons were a foreign language that held no value for me and I didn't want to learn it.

Maybe a more answerable question is, are there any contemporary CAD systems that use the pulldown menu/hot key UI?

@extropic,

Wow, excellent thread. Lots to address. Let's start with my background for a sec so I can set the table for my response. I started out as a drafter on the drafting board for a larger defense contractor. 2 years into my stint there I started using Applicon Bravo (parent company Schlumberger acquired them in 1980). That was it, I was hooked. I knew CAD was going to be my future. My first stop in the CAD world was Computervison in Bedford MA. 5 years later I ended up as employee 63 at PTC. Nearly 6 years later I went to a reseller for PTC that was developing an in-house CAD data manager. After that I went out on my own as an industry consultant in CAD data management. For a short time I worked for SolidWorks writing some of their early user manuals. Suffice to say the CAD universe is a small one and that many of the players from the early days moved in the same trajectory and I kept bumping into them. Still do.

To address your UI experience and disdain for the icon driven interfaces (which I can thoroughly relate to) it was pretty much all thanks to Apple and then Microsoft, with ComputerVision and SolidWorks jumping on the bandwagon of icon driven interfaces. Pro/E started life on UNIX workstations and was written as what is called a "state" machine architecture. Internally, this is a somewhat clunky, compared to modern code "event" driven structures. When SolidWorks arrived on the scene in 1996 as a PC based product running in Windows, this essentially changed all CAD interfaces running at the time. SolidWorks changed the dynamic of user interfaces from that point on. Every major player in CAD changed their UI to chase down SolidWorks which became an unparalleled success in a very short time. it was not just the interface that did it. It was the price too. SW was $3995 for the software running on a 8-10k PC vs. $20k to start for Pro/E and then at least that again for the UNIX box.

To answer your final question. No, I do not believe there are any mainstream CAD systems using pulldown text-based menus anymore. Interesting to me is that Computervision's used a Verb-Noun-Modifier approach that lasted for years as a paradigm for CAD user interfaces, ex: Insert Line Horizontal which "leaked" into Pro/E since the founder of PTC had worked at Computervision developing their surfacing package.

Hope this proved interesting and not too long winded,

 

[extropic]

@gedkins
Thank you. Not too long winded and very informative.
I was pretty sure my favorite UI was dead and buried.
Too bad for me. ProE was such a pleasure and is very high on my short list of things I miss from my career.

 

[verbotenwhisky]

@extropic,

Wow, excellent thread. Lots to address. Let's start with my background for a sec so I can set the table for my response. I started out as a drafter on the drafting board for a larger defense contractor. 2 years into my stint there I started using Applicon Bravo (parent company Schlumberger acquired them in 1980). That was it, I was hooked. I knew CAD was going to be my future. My first stop in the CAD world was Computervison in Bedford MA. 5 years later I ended up as employee 63 at PTC. Nearly 6 years later I went to a reseller for PTC that was developing an in-house CAD data manager. After that I went out on my own as an industry consultant in CAD data management. For a short time I worked for SolidWorks writing some of their early user manuals. Suffice to say the CAD universe is a small one and that many of the players from the early days moved in the same trajectory and I kept bumping into them. Still do.

To address your UI experience and disdain for the icon driven interfaces (which I can thoroughly relate to) it was pretty much all thanks to Apple and then Microsoft, with ComputerVision and SolidWorks jumping on the bandwagon of icon driven interfaces. Pro/E started life on UNIX workstations and was written as what is called a "state" machine architecture. Internally, this is a somewhat clunky, compared to modern code "event" driven structures. When SolidWorks arrived on the scene in 1996 as a PC based product running in Windows, this essentially changed all CAD interfaces running at the time. SolidWorks changed the dynamic of user interfaces from that point on. Every major player in CAD changed their UI to chase down SolidWorks which became an unparalleled success in a very short time. it was not just the interface that did it. It was the price too. SW was $3995 for the software running on a 8-10k PC vs. $20k to start for Pro/E and then at least that again for the UNIX box.

To answer your final question. No, I do not believe there are any mainstream CAD systems using pulldown text-based menus anymore. Interesting to me is that Computervision's used a Verb-Noun-Modifier approach that lasted for years as a paradigm for CAD user interfaces, ex: Insert Line Horizontal which "leaked" into Pro/E since the founder of PTC had worked at Computervision developing their surfacing package.

Hope this proved interesting and not too long winded,

You missed a few steps, Solidworks can from Solid Edge, they licensed the Solid Edge engine developed by EDS out of Dallas. Solid Works and AutoDesk Inventor both use the EDS engine. Additionally AutoCAD has been around since the early 80's and became a thing in the mid and late 80's for 2D drawing and then moved into the 3D world using third party add ons, I received my first CAD training on AutoTrol 1000 running on a VAX11780 in 1983 and used prime Medusa a couple times in the late 80's but I was on the board primarily until 1991 when I was trained in AutoCAD and started using it at that time. We still use 2keys and write lisp routines for AutoCAD to this day, it allows you to use explicit commands, tool bars or pull downs and has added ribbons, what ever the user is comfortable with and BricsCAD is identical in operation and command structure. I can operate 12 or 13 different CAD software's some of which are very operation specific.

SolidWorks, Solid Edge and Inventor are really Machinist packages as is ProE also.