Preferred carbide insert brand/s?

[GrifterGuru]

Probably a bit of a "hot button" subject, open to many points of view, but I am looking at what I am spending on Carbide inserts and wondering if I am actually getting the best deal or not...

Sure, I am not paying "over the odds", but I get the impression I am paying for "middle of the road" quality and yes, I have dealt with a few "cheap" inserts and yes they were junk and no, I did not purchase them, they came supplied with tooling and were summarily replaced, the freebies being tossed because they were that bad.

On average, I am am paying £15 - £20 GBP ($19.60c - $26.13c USD) per box of inserts, not inclusive of ER or IR threading inserts and yes, I have paid higher for specific inserts, but only of one, possibly two types.

So, what I am asking is this...

Which "brand" or, if you prefer, "manufacturer" is your preferred option and why?
What makes that "brand/Manufacturer" good for you?
What pros/cons do you see with that brand?
Is it about value for money or quality over quantity?
Is it about longevity of the insert/s?

 

[m1kemex]

I've never paid retail pricing. Most of what I use comes from eBay: whatever I can find for cheap.

After some trial and error, you get to understand which grades and shapes of inserts work best, and which are dumped into the surplus market because they don't. I mostly avoid C2 / K10/K20 because unalloyed carbide is not good for metal machining. It's too brittle and has chemical affinity with iron, so it wears faster than normal; or chips. I also avoid simple shapes like round, square, triangle and such. Most don't have enough relief angle to be useful and can't really be placed in a cutter in a way that really replaces solid tooling. It's really just old (obsolete) tech.

Some time ago I purchased a large lot of Kennametal steel grade inserts (it has niobium / tantalum carbide and proper toughness) and haven't had the need to buy more ever since.

 

[Ischgl99]

I mostly buy Kennametal for the simple reason they come in 5 packs instead of 10. I wasn’t sure which grade/chip breaker I wanted, so didn’t want to buy 10 inserts that might not work. I get them through Ebay mostly, but carefully check the packaging to make sure they look like they are authentic. I’m using mostly K5010 grades in the LF and UF chipbreakers.

For aluminum inserts, I am very happy with Korloy H01 style inserts. I have bought some budget ones from www.latheinserts.com that work well, but I prefer the Kennametal and Korloy, they seem to perform a bit better.

 

[GeneT45]

I have been pleased with inserts from Kennametal, Iscar, Sandvik, Hertel, Accusize/Northward, Oxolotl.ct (amazon), Shars, Satpistoul (amazon), and Zousmin(amazon).

Years ago I gave up on inexpensive import inserts, but a face mill purchased a few years ago (Northward) turned out to be excellent, so I started dipping my toes back into them and much to my surprise the quality of almost all that I have tried recently beats anything I bought 10-15 years ago. Many seem to be on par with brand-name inserts that cost literally 10x as much.

GsT

 

[Huub Buis]

I have hobby mill and lathes that aren't rigid. To get just a bit chip breaking, I use the small size inserts (CCMT06, DCMT07, etc) that are coded for Finishing (VP15TF). I rarely can cut deeper than the insert nose radius so using top quality professional inserts will add very little to my machining result. So I still use the cheap (AliExpress) inserts. Most are from LYYZ, Koesort, Korloy and Iscar. Maybe I get their counterfeit parts. Nevertheless, I am very pleased with how they perform.
The inserts I bought form AliExpress matches and sometimes outperforms the inserts I bought from my local and German suppliers. I guess these are also rebranded cheap once sold at a high price. I never tried Sandvic, Kennamatal and other top brands.

 

[GrifterGuru]

@Huub Buis

You say you can't cut deeper than the insert nose radius? Thats is strange... Using manual pressure, on a 7x, I can get anywhere from 1/4 to 1/2 (or more) the length of the insert as depth of cut with CCMT06/CCGT06, DCMT07/DCGT07, RCMT06/RGCT06. Granted, I don't do it often, but when I need to I can, material dependant.

 

[Huub Buis]

No, for my 70 kg mini lathe the 0.5 mm in steel is about the max. On the 300 kg bigger lathe I can cut a bit deeper but than the finish reduces drastic unless I screw down the feed from 0.1 mm/rev to 0.05 mm/rev. Both are Chinese desk top lathes that aren't rigid.
I also don't want to stress my lead screw nut to much and don't want the chips to get all over the place in my very small 3x4 meter hobby shop.

 

[GrifterGuru]

No, for my 70 kg mini lathe the 0.5 mm in steel is about the max. On the 300 kg bigger lathe I can cut a bit deeper but than the finish reduces drastic unless I screw down the feed from 0.1 mm/rev to 0.05 mm/rev. Both are Chinese desk top lathes that aren't rigid.
I also don't want to stress my lead screw nut to much and don't want the chips to get all over the place in my very small 3x4 meter hobby shop.

That is strange that even with my 7x16 Sieg SC3 bench-top lathe I can get quite impressive cuts whereas you seem not able to? maybe my experience with lathes helps or maybe it is that I don't use powerfeed whilst I get material down to just above the size I need. Or it could be that my SC3 is brushless? who knows.

Try NOT using power feed and manually traversing the carriage. You might be surprised at what can be done. Speed plays a part as does feed rate. You will be able to "feel" how the material is cutting and the lathe will tell you where it is happy through the feedback.

What "70kg mini lathe" do you have?

 

[m1kemex]

almost all that I have tried recently beats anything I bought 10-15 years ago. Many seem to be on par with brand-name inserts that cost literally 10x as much.

Carbide tooling companies operate a lot like pharmaceuticals: 90% (say) of their profits come from blocking competition via intellectual property. When patents (that should be understood as legal monopolies) expire, everyone can make equivalent products without that legal burden.

I think I mentioned it in a different thread. Things like magnetic drills and laser range finders are just not novel anymore and the Chinese are just pumping such products into the market at nearly cost price. Carbide inserts are mostly 1970/1980s technology. On top of that, most carbide tooling sold right now is just recycled carbide from older tooling. It's yet another industry built on the business model of repurposing scrap into valuable products.

 

[Huub Buis]

That is strange that even with my 7x16 Sieg SC3 bench-top lathe I can get quite impressive cuts whereas you seem not able to? maybe my experience with lathes helps or maybe it is that I don't use powerfeed whilst I get material down to just above the size I need. Or it could be that my SC3 is brushless? who knows.

Try NOT using power feed and manually traversing the carriage. You might be surprised at what can be done. Speed plays a part as does feed rate. You will be able to "feel" how the material is cutting and the lathe will tell you where it is happy through the feedback.

What "70kg mini lathe" do you have?

We are quit of topic but it shows that using carbide on non rigid desktop hobby lathes can give good results.

Both my lathes are from HBM, a company in the Netherlands that sells hobby level lathes. Both lathes needed a full service and some tweaking right out of the box but are now repeatable and accurate.

• HBM300, 70 kg, 21 mm spindle bore, 80 mm chuck, BLDC 500W, contact angle bearings, 15 years old
• HBM BF290, 300 kg, 38 mm spindle bore, 160 mm chuck, 1.5 kW brushed DC, tapered roller bearings, 6 years old)

Most of the time I use the lathes in CNC mode so I can set the feed, speed and cutting depth accurately and repeatable. In manual mode I can take a 1 mm depth of cut in mild steel (hot rolled) but only because I feed much slower than in CNC mode. The finish however is like the cutting sound, not good. To me, that isn't a surprise because I have done extensive feed and speed testing on both my lathes so I know what to expect.
I can cut deeper than 0.5 mm in steel, but not with a finish suitable for a bearing fit.

My bigger lathe is more rigid than the small lathe but still not rigid. If you look at the picture you see a massive stud for the tool post mount. The tool post it self is flimsy and has a lot of over hang. If you set it at full extension (70 mm range) the overhang increases. I added 4 aluminum studs to support the tool post and that makes a real difference. If I have time, I will replace the whole setup by a solid tool post support. In CNC mode, the tool is placed above the aluminum studs and the gibs are adjusted (locked) to maximize rigidity. That makes things better.
Even if I can't take heavy cuts, I have no problem getting a decent finish on any of the steel (most of is is unknown type) I have in stock and (CNC) turning to 0.01 mm diameter tolerance requires 3 finish passes of the same cutting depth and one measurement before the last finish pass.

Most of the time, I make small ( 3 .. 40 mm) parts (prototypes) so taking heavy cuts isn't a real option most of the time.

HBM BF 290 lathe later version
HBM 300 lathe later version

The tool post setup of the HBM BF290 lathe.