12 x 36 lathe is a good size to start. Big enough for gun work and small enough to load and move with a good engine hoist. Not much more $ up front and significantly more machine. I have run lathes in an industrial setting for most of 40 years and have never needed or wanted DRO. The mill is a different story. I have used mills without in many shops but the DRO is a real time and mistake saver on a mill. For simple stuff a mill without DRO is fine until you try to mill a bolt circle without a dividing head.
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New to machining and metal works, can I get a sanity check before I write one
- Thread starter ropedrag
- Start date
I wanted to thank each of you for the input and also remind everyone that the 11x27 is maxing out the available space I have to work with, without selling out the future space for having a mill and welding table. Which in reality is a bit space suspect as it is.
Hell, everyone pushes the 12x36 or larger so hard it makes me wonder if I should skip the whole idea of a lathe if I cant have one at least that big.
I know the DRO is really only a "nice to have" feature on a lathe and by no means a deal breaker so I typically flip flop at least twice a day, but I think I'll hold off so I don't cheap out on micrometer sets, depth gauges, dial indicators, etc.... and buy good quality measurement tools.
Hell, everyone pushes the 12x36 or larger so hard it makes me wonder if I should skip the whole idea of a lathe if I cant have one at least that big.
I know the DRO is really only a "nice to have" feature on a lathe and by no means a deal breaker so I typically flip flop at least twice a day, but I think I'll hold off so I don't cheap out on micrometer sets, depth gauges, dial indicators, etc.... and buy good quality measurement tools.
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A lot of members here do have smaller lathes, quite a few of us have 9", 10" and 11" lathes. Some have mini lathes. Few people ever consciously think to themselves I wish I had a smaller lathe, unless they are moving it. I don't think it is uncommon for even those with a large lathe to think, if only it was a little bigger from time to time.
I think a lot of those who recommend going as big as you can is because they started smaller and found they wanted bigger. Unless you come from a machining background and have used a variety of machines it is hard to really pick a perfectly sized machine. I started with much smaller machines, and eventually bought larger. I have no regrets on buying the mini machines and I still use them for the projects I bought them for. I simply found bigger projects that required bigger machines.
The smaller lathes are still quite capable, just limited to smaller work. Even my tiny Sherline will cut steel.
Most of the readily available smaller lathes do lack some of the features of the 12" and larger lathes, like a full quick change gear box. This may also play a part, the 11" and smaller tend to be thought of as hobby machines and may make cost conscious choices. 12" is about the smallest size of "professional" lathe.
Many of the older lathes of the 9-11" size did have a QCGB as an option, but that is no longer the case, so you will have to rely on manually changing gears to do your full range of threads. This is a convenience issue, not a capability issue. It is easier / faster to move a couple of levers vs opening the cover and swapping some gears around but the material being threaded doesn't care. A lot of members here worked professionally and still have that time is money perspective, so something as inefficient as change gears is a no go for them. For somebody who does this purely as a hobby may not give the extra time a second thought.
You've also mentioned gunsmithing and 12x36 / 13x40 are very popular sizes of lathe with those doing that kind of work which may also be driving a lot of the comments in that direction.
The PM 1127 is a very nice lathe (by specs, and reputation I've not personally used one) but I understand it does require the use of change gears. It has a large 1-1/2" bore equal in size to the PM 12" and 13" lathes. It has a D1-4 spindle which is preferred over the threaded or bolt on chucks used on most of the 10" and smaller lathes. It does have a shorter bed but if you don't plan on doing rifle barrels, that is likely not an issue.
The PM1127 is about a foot short in length than most 12x36 lathes.
Something else to consider particularly if you have done wood working, is on a lathe the work is largely contained within the foot print of the machine. Unlike like a table saw where you may have oversized stock to account for, you don't need a lot of room around most metal working machines. Coming from woodworking, it took me some time to accept that I basically just had to find room for the machine.
In addition to the mill and welding table, make sure to leave room for a metal cutting powersaw of some sort. Most new people seem to forget about this (I did) and relying on an arm powered hacksaw gets old fast.
Anyway I can be long winded but don't be discouraged if people are pushing you towards a machine bigger than you feel you have the room for. Only you know the limits of your space and budget. I will leave you with two photos from my shop though as some food for thought.
These are my original mini-lathe and mini-mill with the (still small by machine tool standards) larger machines I eventually added. When I started out I was sure there was no way I could fit machines bigger than the mini-machines into my house. Necessity finds a way (holiday decorations and gardening tools can live just fine in a shed instead of the basement
). My larger mill and lathe are of a similar size to the PM1127 lathe and PM25 mill, I am quite content with them.
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Ropedrag, most of what needed to be said has been said but I did want to add that it looks like its coming down to a choice between a PM1127 or a PM1236. The 1236 is about 11" longer so the space thing matters. However, it might be better to get a smaller welding table and get the bigger lathe (you shouldn't be welding near your machine tools anyway).
I happen to really like the PM1127 specs. It has most of the good stuff a lathe needs except for a QCGB but if you plan to do any gun work then a longer bed is going to come in handy and like cubic inches, there is just no substitute for length. In addition, the 1236 isn't just longer, it is over twice the weight of the 1127 and that is going to translate into more rigidity.
Now say you don't do any gun work but just want to make stuff. Either lathe will work for you but the 1236 has a QCGB and that is a big deal. Changing gears is not that much of a hassle but over time, you will be happier with a QCGB; trust me.
My personal lathe, an Emco Super 11 CD, is only an 11 X 24 with a 1-3/8" spindle bore and it is more than enough for my simple needs. However, it has all the good juju that a good lathe needs and it will be the last lathe I ever buy. Knowing what I know now about what a good lathe should have, I would highly recommend you put some thought into a smaller welding table or find someplace else to put that table and consider the 1236.
I happen to really like the PM1127 specs. It has most of the good stuff a lathe needs except for a QCGB but if you plan to do any gun work then a longer bed is going to come in handy and like cubic inches, there is just no substitute for length. In addition, the 1236 isn't just longer, it is over twice the weight of the 1127 and that is going to translate into more rigidity.
Now say you don't do any gun work but just want to make stuff. Either lathe will work for you but the 1236 has a QCGB and that is a big deal. Changing gears is not that much of a hassle but over time, you will be happier with a QCGB; trust me.
My personal lathe, an Emco Super 11 CD, is only an 11 X 24 with a 1-3/8" spindle bore and it is more than enough for my simple needs. However, it has all the good juju that a good lathe needs and it will be the last lathe I ever buy. Knowing what I know now about what a good lathe should have, I would highly recommend you put some thought into a smaller welding table or find someplace else to put that table and consider the 1236.
ropedrag, on belay!
we hear you, floor space is the problem. Since you want to be equipped for learning general metal work and don't have specific tasks/jobs planned, a 1127 will give you many hours of learning pleasure. Chances are you will spend more time making tools and tooling than actually making other things.
There has been some very creative shops set up in limited space. One fellow set up a full shop in a container. The versatility of his shop was an inspiration. In my case, milling on the lathe has been sufficient (so far
). Making my own milling attachment was super fun.
The only unavoidable truth for me is to get the best quality measuring equipment from the start. Not only are quality calipers and micrometers way more pleasant to use but you can actually trust what they say! You can't work to more precision than your instruments can tell you.
we hear you, floor space is the problem. Since you want to be equipped for learning general metal work and don't have specific tasks/jobs planned, a 1127 will give you many hours of learning pleasure. Chances are you will spend more time making tools and tooling than actually making other things.
There has been some very creative shops set up in limited space. One fellow set up a full shop in a container. The versatility of his shop was an inspiration. In my case, milling on the lathe has been sufficient (so far
). Making my own milling attachment was super fun.The only unavoidable truth for me is to get the best quality measuring equipment from the start. Not only are quality calipers and micrometers way more pleasant to use but you can actually trust what they say! You can't work to more precision than your instruments can tell you.
I am not knocking the 10 or 11 inch lathes. In one shop I worked in (as the only Machinist and Welder) we had two lathes. An older Logan 10 x 24 and a really old 20" x 8'. I did some really nice work on that little lathe. Probably 75 percent of the lathe work was done on the small lathe. If 11 x 27 is what you want, by all means get that one. I went the smaller rout when I bought my first lathe too. It had to go in the basement of a house I was renting. When I got a place of my own, I bought a 12 x 36. Now I own a 14 x 40 and sold the other two. You can see the progression here. A lot of people start small and go bigger with time. I was quite happy with the 12 x 36 and would have kept it. I got a swinging deal, $1000 for a damaged but almost new 14 x 40.
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Mikey brings up a great point: Change gears are THE WORST. I had them on my Logan (until I added a QCGB, not a trivial task!) and would never want to go through having them again.
What many miss is the gearbox is NOT simply for selecting thread pitches! It doesn't matter if you never end up cutting threads. They are ALSO used for changing auto-feed rates! The auto-feed is basically the only good way to get a consistent feed (for the purposes of consistent surface finish!) and being able to tweak that speed without spending 10 minutes fussing with gears is a god-send.
What many miss is the gearbox is NOT simply for selecting thread pitches! It doesn't matter if you never end up cutting threads. They are ALSO used for changing auto-feed rates! The auto-feed is basically the only good way to get a consistent feed (for the purposes of consistent surface finish!) and being able to tweak that speed without spending 10 minutes fussing with gears is a god-send.
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Did you check out the 1228VF-LB, seems it's just 10" longer and not much more expensive.
It also has a QCGB.
BTW Skip the DRO for the lathe, you can add one later if you really want, but not on a mill, worth the money.
David.
It also has a QCGB.
BTW Skip the DRO for the lathe, you can add one later if you really want, but not on a mill, worth the money.
David.
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Mikey,
I had to check out your lathe.
I didn't know these were made in Austria.
They appear to be a great choice for a hobbiest seeking a quality lathe.
Here is one on Ebay in California. Not cheap.
11" x 25" Emco Maximat Super 11 Tool Room Lathe with Grinding attachment | eBay
(1) 11" x 25" Emco Maximat Super 11 Tool Room Lathe. Swing over bed. . Equipped with Spindle bore. 1". 6.5" & 6" 3 jaw chucks. Distance between centers. Approximate weight.
www.ebay.com
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- 8,644
Aaron, you also bring up some good points.A lot of members here do have smaller lathes, quite a few of us have 9", 10" and 11" lathes. Some have mini lathes. Few people ever consciously think to themselves I wish I had a smaller lathe, unless they are moving it. I don't think it is uncommon for even those with a large lathe to think, if only it was a little bigger from time to time.
I think a lot of those who recommend going as big as you can is because they started smaller and found they wanted bigger. Unless you come from a machining background and have used a variety of machines it is hard to really pick a perfectly sized machine. I started with much smaller machines, and eventually bought larger. I have no regrets on buying the mini machines and I still use them for the projects I bought them for. I simply found bigger projects that required bigger machines.
The smaller lathes are still quite capable, just limited to smaller work. Even my tiny Sherline will cut steel.
Most of the readily available smaller lathes do lack some of the features of the 12" and larger lathes, like a full quick change gear box. This may also play a part, the 11" and smaller tend to be thought of as hobby machines and may make cost conscious choices. 12" is about the smallest size of "professional" lathe.
Many of the older lathes of the 9-11" size did have a QCGB as an option, but that is no longer the case, so you will have to rely on manually changing gears to do your full range of threads. This is a convenience issue, not a capability issue. It is easier / faster to move a couple of levers vs opening the cover and swapping some gears around but the material being threaded doesn't care. A lot of members here worked professionally and still have that time is money perspective, so something as inefficient as change gears is a no go for them. For somebody who does this purely as a hobby may not give the extra time a second thought.
You've also mentioned gunsmithing and 12x36 / 13x40 are very popular sizes of lathe with those doing that kind of work which may also be driving a lot of the comments in that direction.
The PM 1127 is a very nice lathe (by specs, and reputation I've not personally used one) but I understand it does require the use of change gears. It has a large 1-1/2" bore equal in size to the PM 12" and 13" lathes. It has a D1-4 spindle which is preferred over the threaded or bolt on chucks used on most of the 10" and smaller lathes. It does have a shorter bed but if you don't plan on doing rifle barrels, that is likely not an issue.
The PM1127 is about a foot short in length than most 12x36 lathes.
Something else to consider particularly if you have done wood working, is on a lathe the work is largely contained within the foot print of the machine. Unlike like a table saw where you may have oversized stock to account for, you don't need a lot of room around most metal working machines. Coming from woodworking, it took me some time to accept that I basically just had to find room for the machine.
In addition to the mill and welding table, make sure to leave room for a metal cutting powersaw of some sort. Most new people seem to forget about this (I did) and relying on an arm powered hacksaw gets old fast.
Anyway I can be long winded but don't be discouraged if people are pushing you towards a machine bigger than you feel you have the room for. Only you know the limits of your space and budget. I will leave you with two photos from my shop though as some food for thought.
View attachment 327801
View attachment 327802
These are my original mini-lathe and mini-mill with the (still small by machine tool standards) larger machines I eventually added. When I started out I was sure there was no way I could fit machines bigger than the mini-machines into my house. Necessity finds a way (holiday decorations and gardening tools can live just fine in a shed instead of the basement
When I went looking for a lathe I went for what I knew. A 13" South Bend. I used one in High School and later in my 20's. I found one and it suited me well until I was forced to start the search again.
I found my current lathe at a local equipment dealer. I ended up with a 7.5 HP 15X50 Colchester.
I probably don't need a lathe this big but on the other hand I have been able to do everything I have needed so far.
It's hard to know what the perfect lathe is when you are starting out. I would have to agree though, lean toward a larger machine = more rigid = more capable. IMHO