Need some help understanding threading gearsets on a Seneca Falls Star 30

PHPaul

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We're getting some desperately needed rain today, so good day to putter in the shop.

My Seneca Falls Star 30 came with a fairly complete set of change gears and I thought this might be a good opportunity to start learning how to cut threads.

Here is the threading chart on the machine:

sfchart.jpg


Gear positions are labelled "Stud", "Inter" and "Screw"

Here is the gearbox:

sfgeartrain.jpg


My initial assumption is as follows:

B is the "Inter" which I suspect means "Intermediate".
C is the "Screw" which is the drive screw for the apron

That leaves A as the "Stud" which is actually the spindle of the lathe. Not exactly intuitive.

Another possibility is that B is the "Stud" as it's just a shaft for an idler gear to turn on.

Also B requires two gears. The spindle drives the outer gear and the inner drives the threading screw. Seems to me the chart should specify 4 gears not three.

Anybody care to "un-confuse" me? Thanks in advance.
 
They sound like reasonable assumptions. Set up a pitch, put a sharpie marker in place of a tool, throw some round stock and see if you get what you expect :)
 
Oops...:apologize:

A little more information - There's a spacer on the spindle that allows the spindle (or stud?) gear to drive either the inner OR outer intermediate gear. Also discovered (doh...) that the intermediate idler is adjustable in two directions to allow for larger diameter gears in the intermediate position.

Finally, there ARE a couple of thread pitches that do indeed specify two gears for the intermediate position.

These discoveries seem to lend credence to my initial assumptions. Of course, I'm still interested in hearing from anyone with actual experience with this or similar lathes.
 
Your assumptions are correct. In cases where only 1 gear is specified for the intermediate shaft the spacer behind the "stud" is removed. The gear is pushed back on the shaft and driven by the inner most woodruff key. The spacer is then placed on the outer woodruff key and the assembly is held in place by the spring clip.

In cases where 2 gears are specified on the intermediate shaft the gear on the stud is moved to the outer woodruff key and the spacer is placed on the inner key.

Your shaft and gear arrangement are identical to the one on my Seneca Falls Star #20 machine. In cases where 2 gears are required on the intermediate shaft the outer gear is the first listed in the combination. An example would be like the 3rd row down on your threading chart i.e. 24/48. The 24 tooth gear is the outer gear, and the 48 tooth gear is the inner gear. Also note the intermediate shaft is a threaded stud held to the "change gear yoke" by a washer and nut on the backside. Depending on the gear configuration the stud and yoke positions can be adjusted to allow the gears to mesh properly.

I tried to upload a copy of the Seneca Falls catalog #27 second edition, but it was too large for the server to handle. This and other catalogs are available from the Vintage Machinery website:


The parts list starts on page 43 and goes through page 45.
 
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@projectnut - Most Excellent, Sir. Thank you very much!

Okay, new question. No threading dial and (at the moment) no reverse capability. Is threading even possible? I know there are techniques for threading without the dial, but as far as I know, they require the ability to reverse the lathe.

EDIT: Checked the plate on the motor and it is reversable. Ordered a drum switch.
 
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Threading would be possible, but quite limited; if your leadscrew is 8 TPI, you can cut 8, 16. 32, 64 by closing the half nuts anywhere, that is if the thread is a factor of the leadscrew, you can close anywhere. A thread dial from any lathe that has the same number of leadscrew threads should be adaptable to your lathe. If it were possible to stop the lathe quickly, you can stop, disengage the half nuts, and move back even inch distances and re engage the half nuts (while the lathe is not turning). Bottom line, find or make a thread dial.
 
@projectnut - Most Excellent, Sir. Thank you very much!

Okay, new question. No threading dial and (at the moment) no reverse capability. Is threading even possible? I know there are techniques for threading without the dial, but as far as I know, they require the ability to reverse the lathe.

EDIT: Checked the plate on the motor and it is reversable. Ordered a drum switch.

Glad to hear your motor is reversible. Your solution for threading is the same as mine. I installed a 1 hp 110/220 single phase 1725 rpm reversible motor and drum switch on my machine to accommodate threading. Like most machines of this vintage a threading dial was not an option. If you look through the catalogs on the Vintage Machine website I don't think you'll find a single Seneca Falls machine that lists it as a standard or optional feature.

When starting a thread (either internal or external) I select and install the necessary gears, and chuck up the stock. I then back the carriage off about an inch or so from the stock before I engage the lead screw. Engaging the gearset and leadscrew for several revolutions before engaging the cutter in the stock eliminates the play. Set the cutter depth to about .002" and make a pass. You can scribe a pattern on the stock that can be measured with a thread gauge. Each pass will require backing the cutter past the end of the stock to a similar start position to keep proper registration.

Without a thread gauge threading to a shoulder can be tricky. You have to either A. shut off the machine and let the cutter coast to the end point, then back off the cutter and reverse the machine, or B. leave the machine running and have the coordination to back off the cutter and reverse the lead screw before crashing. Since the chuck on these machines is threaded to the spindle there is the possibility that it can come unscrewed should you try an instant reverse. My machine will go as slow as 40 rpm when in using the back gear and the largest cone on the spindle pulley. To date I have not unscrewed the chuck, but most threading to a shoulder has been done using method A.

Often times on an external thread I cheat and make the stock longer than necessary. Then I can turn down a section to a diameter smaller than the root of the thread and put that end in the chuck. Now you don't have to be so precise as when to stop or back off the cutter. You can let it run until the full diameter section of the shaft is threaded then shut it off as the cutter passes onto the smaller diameter portion of the shaft. Then back off, reverse, and repeat until the proper thread depth is achieved.

Another method is to use a longer piece of stock and just cut a groove at the end of the length needed to be threaded and follow the same procedure as mentioned above. When finished threading just part off the unneeded section.

Essentially you shouldn't disengage the leadscrew if you want to keep proper registration.

I have used these methods to cut hundreds if not thousands of threads using my Seneca Falls machine without a thread dial. I must admit it is far easier to do the same procedures on my Sheldon machine with a quick change gear box and thread dial. As benmychree mentioned any thread dial from a machine with the same pitch on the leadscrew should work. Maybe I'm old school, but these methods have worked for me so I see no need for a thread dial on this machine. If I'm in a hurry or lazy I'll use the other machine.

Here are a couple [pictures of my machine. Note I mounted the drum switch on the left front leg of the stand. It's in a convenient place so I don't have to move or reach over anything to use it. I also have a gravity tension on the motor belt. Should I do something stupid the belt will slip rather than crashing tooling or stripping gear teeth.

DSCF8081A.jpgDCP00839.JPG
 
Also, realize that machines like this one had reversing overhead countershafts powered from a lineshaft, so that they had instant reversing, and could easily stop at a shoulder and return to the starting place without opening the half nuts; my 9" Monarch Jr. lathe has this but also it has a thread dial from the factory.
 
Nice setup, @projectnut !

sfswitch.jpg


I currently have the motor switch mounted on the change gear housing. I'll likely put the drum switch in the same place. Might make a bracket to get it vertical. Need to have it in hand before I decide.
 
Bear in mind that the drum switch will not instantly reverse the motor rotation; the motor must coast down to a speed that allows the starting switch to re engage before it will reverse, if the switch is simply thrown over to reverse without this happening, it will simply continue rotating in forward and possible crash. Grainger used to sell an instant reversing single phase motor that would be much better for this application/use.
 
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