Need help- Given some CNC stuff and I have NO clue

[spumco]

but these guys are LITTLE compared to what this Galil was supposed to be able to handle

Don't confuse 'powerful' motion controller hardware with 'powerful' motor. A powerful motion controller simply means it's very fast, accurate, and the trajectory planner is refined. i.e. smooth. Think really complicated robot moving gracefully. Lots of number crunching, but maybe that robot is only the size of a poodle.

3-phase - just because you don't have 3p piped directly to your Workshop O' Doom doesn't mean you can't have it. Digital phase converters are available that magically transform the 220VAC single phase in to sweet, sweet 3-phase 220VAC to run those quiet, powerful industrial motors and so forth. And there are variable frequency drives (VFD) that do the same thing for an individual motor. No need to panic the neighborhood busybodies thinking you're setting up a production line.

I think they are BOTH part of the mix now

Yes and no. If you sell all your Bugatti parts and buy a turn-key CNC mill, you may not have to learn so much about the electrical pixies behind the curtain. You can get to learning G-code, CAD/CAM/tools, feeds and speeds, etc.

I find this stuff interesting even if my head hurts from time to time. And learning a bit about motion control and electronics (and electrical) has saved me quite a bit of money - but it's cost me quite a bit of time. I had to, essentially, start from scratch with the entire motion control system and anything electrical on my mill before making any chips.

Learning how not to crash the machine and plow through expensive tools and vises has been delayed. My machining 'apprenticeship' has been delayed quite a bit while learning the backstage stuff, but it's also helped me diagnose and repair a couple of sick 'pro' CNC machines for friends. Win-win: they are back to making money and I now have three 20hp VMC's to play with (supervised) whenever they're idle. And there may be a dual-spindle, twin-turret, live tool, 8-axis turning center in the near future... The crashes are going to be EPIC.

So... while I suspect folks here are interested in helping you design & build a monster control system, don't count out the possibility of selling it and buying a smallish turn-key CNC mill and jump-starting your new hobby. No matter what you'll be learning about control systems and electronics and stuff - but maybe you can fiddle with that stuff while you're actually using a machine.

 

[Boswell]

I am one that bought a turn-key system and have not looked back. I have a background in electronics and control systems so building was an option but this way I got to jump right into learning how to make widgets instead of widget makers. Everyone seems to have there own preferences in this regard so, the only wrong answer is the one that has you doing something you don't like.

 

[silverforgestudio]

I'll just weigh in as a second contact.... Jim's CNC software would be the only game in town. IMHO, the Mach efforts to use Galil was a complete bust. I will say setting up galil for the first time is quite the challenge. But you end up with a control far advanced over the hobby market stuff.

Thank you for the chime in! Good info about setting up the Galil as well- Im not at the "mach" level yet ( I mean looking at software) so the note about that is appreciated.
-Stay tuned and thank you!

3-phase - just because you don't have 3p piped directly to your Workshop O' Doom doesn't mean you can't have it. Digital phase converters are available that magically transform the 220VAC single phase in to sweet, sweet 3-phase 220VAC to run those quiet, powerful industrial motors and so forth. And there are variable frequency drives (VFD) that do the same thing for an individual motor. No need to panic the neighborhood busybodies thinking you're setting up a production line..

-True that- I have a retired "Federal" Cop behind me who does a LOT of finger wagging and is the main reason I know my Local Fire Marshal on a first-name basis... and the reason I have a line of lovely decorative bushes and landscaping behind my house...

Yes and no. If you sell all your Bugatti parts and buy a turn-key CNC mill, you may not have to learn so much about the electrical pixies behind the curtain.... saved me quite a bit of money - but it's cost me quite a bit of time.... don't count out the possibility of selling it and buying a smallish turn-key CNC mill and jump-starting your new hobby..

Well I agree- and Im time rich compared to my money- and the learning is part of the fun for me. I have mulled this over hard and still am on the fence about selling vs keeping- I think once I figure out what I have left to get/scrounge/buy/acquire to make this thing work I will have a much better picture of how it can all "fit into" a decision. The other consideration is that As I couldnt afford these parts "off the shelf"- This is an opportunity to play with something (although older) that I would not be able to in my normal world.

To all helping here- I appreciate it- That being said this adventure has to have a plan... this is what Im working on. If I KEEP the stuff and go for it- I will commit to it.... If I SELL and capitalize other things in the shop- it will still be a useful journey... I have to consider what my limits are and how adept I am in learning and adapting to a LOT of new info. This "Plan" is being hashed out and hopefully will center some things for me- in the shop and with the path. But for now I am focusing on the KEEP portion as this is a place I wanted to get to in the future (It just got dropped off here a little early in my lap! HA!)

I am one that bought a turn-key system and have not looked back.... I got to jump right into learning how to make widgets instead of widget makers.... Everyone seems to have there own preferences in this regard so, the only wrong answer is the one that has you doing something you don't like.

Sage advice- thank you- Stay tuned and get a chuckle (and maybe offer a hint or two!)

 

[silverforgestudio]

So here are the motors I was given- I thought I only had one set... as I unwrapped and unpacked little scrap parts and bits and bobs- these guys were all hiding in the styrofoam nuggets and plastic baggies... I have reached out to MOOG and dug a bit on the CNC forums as a guest- the ELCOM servos have had a rough life (see spindle?/ shaft areas and overall wear) but the others dont really look like they were ever installed!

ELCOM- I have googled numerous versions of the numbers on the label- I can get NO matches- can anyone tell me what model or part number/series these are?


MINNEBEA- These little guys are cute! They are all still in the box- and the stickers I figure are a clue as to the wiring- and the boxes all had "4mm .7 machine tested" hand written on them"


MOOG- these say DC motor- not stepper... and I do not feel the "cogging" when I spin the shaft like on the steppers- is this a different function item or a spindle (as it has a square shaft tip)??? I have reached out to MOOG and I will tell you folks (NO affiliation) these guys were awesome and down-home in speaking to me as a complete newbie to their product. The fellow in the technical dept took my info and said these were older and he would fwd me some info via email. Just cool customer service! He did NOT know if it was a spindle variant- so we shall see


VEXTA- these were wrapped and I do not think have ever been opened. I was able to get schematics but Im not savvy enough to know what the info means (not yet anyway)


TBL-S AC Servo... this hefty little thing (weighs between 4-6 pounds) and is AC- it was hiding out in the bottom of the box


These are the items I have to play with with the other boards and controllers- Are these compatible?
In my mind Im saying... "Who is ready to find a lightening bolt to wake up the Bugatti-Frankenstein?"

 

[silverforgestudio]

Im just gonna post what I have discovered so if someone has/is looking for the info hopefully it will be a good reference. There are quite a few items I was able to dig about in for these guys and hopefully the collective can fill in the gaps or point me in better directions if I am going off base.

ELCOM- So the top line of the data plate is the part number- only hits I received were off of an auction site- Joined the CNC Zone forums so I could dig a bit deeper- and their database has NO hits to this model. I reached out to the customer service number for Pennnmotion Pittman/Elcom... was consumed... Ahem... Acquired by Amtek... the Elcom rep I dealt with was definitely not interested in helping a little guy out- the reply I received was "these items are ranked obsolete and as such we do not supply any information" Which left me at square one- and when I replied and asked what the model/part number was his answer was "These are obsolete" a one liner email. I will be trying back.

I dont think these were any sort of CNC use- Did an online chat with an Elcom/Pittman" distributor and was told "the 5000 series DC Motors were marketed to printing and biomed application industries" The tech was supposed to fwd a catalog with the 5000 series- but it has yet to shsow up in the email.

MINBEA- These little guys are/were found in printers and from what I can gather are pretty robust offerings for their time. Found a few bits of info and one source where the schematic was listed. 1.8 deg= 200 steps/rev so not a very "fine" tuned stepper- but for a start it may be what is needed (baby steps- pardon the pun!)
-Nice thing about these is their size and adaptability to me anyway- But then again Im not exactly knowledgeable

MOOG- OK so these guys are the surprise of the bunch- the numbering system is fairly straightforward: C= NEMA size L=Length W= Windings M=Options and these models are still used fairly extensively but not in CNC environments- mostly in automation or pick/pull systems. If these are like the newer gen of the C23 series w same specs it has 250 oz/in torque but at 24V.

Vexta PH2610- These guys were found in mainly Biomedical equipment from the readings and searches- although were used quite extensively by "homebrew CNC" guys into the early 2000's... Found 3 hits in CNC Zone for them around 2010 and earlier- but they show up a LOT in medical equipment like the Bone Densimometer HOLOGIC QDR1000.

TBL-S AC SERVO So this doorstop in searches only produces multiple pages in non-english and when asked to translate... yeah... it aint pretty... I have sent a RFI to the company. the catalog images I get do not look like the same housings so I am pretty sure this is a discontinued model as well (go figure- sense a trend yet? HA!) There are several other series LIKE the TBL-S but nothing schematic wise in my googly searches.

So it looks like these were from an automation or biomed or printer repair facility with a government contract- the other bits and bobs from the box contents were "Milspec" order and replacement parts and repair tag info.

Although these are not "CNC" specific- they meet the steeper motor requirement and in some cases (the Minbea hit from CNC Zone) one or more folks have used them in that capacity.

Now my question has changed into not WHAT can I build- but CAN these be used to build...?

If the answer is yes- My logic says next step is testing and verifying everything works and picking the best parts to move forward with.... Please let me know if Im at least headed in the right direction!

My gut says go with the MOOG (1st choice for large router build) the Vexta (1st choice for small wax milling unit) and the Minbea are the backups with the Elcom group as sacrifices to the experimentation bench and as slave motors.

Please weigh in and hope all have a great weekend!

 

[JimDawson]

You have really done your homework.

I'm going to have to do a bit of research, but for building a small CNC the VEXTA motors might be the best, you can use those with a standard micro-stepping drive. The ELCOM motors might run with your servo amps, but not sure of the specs.

 

[silverforgestudio]

Thanks Jim- Like Spumco said- Ill be learning for a long time to get the "angry pixies" to dance in the right order... The Vexta seem to be the "best" option for now as well as the Moogs are actually servos not steppers:

Here is the MOOG spec from the actual schematic the fellow sent-


So I think the "Servo" versus "Stepper" argument eliminated the MOOG from the build as it would seem to add a host of other variables. Im literally reading and learning on the fly here so please bear with me while these things sink-in and are processed...

Here is the best argument Pro/Con list for servo/stepper that I have found so far and it was very revealing to see the difference: LEGACYCNCWOODWORKING- SERVO vs STEPPER

So the MOOGs are gonna be used for another project possibly... someday... maybe...

 

[silverforgestudio]

I am separating the postings as I don't want to confuse one topic from the next

This note is about considerations for building with the Vexta's as the stepper.

Gantry weight and overall machine build- for any use with metals the gantry, frame and rails need to be fairly robust or at least rigid enough to resist twist and deflection and resistance from the materials being cut. I do not think (please correct me if I am wrong) the Vexta steppers would be served well on a machine for aluminum and wood-carving as they will rapidly be stressed pushing through denser/harder/more resistant materials.

This being said- the Vexta series would seem to be perfect for a small wax-carving setup. I imagine my platen to be 16x18 inches (workable space). My difficulty there is a lack of a 4th axis stepper- so finding if the Minbea or one of the Elcom would be appropriate there may assist.

The next consideration I am encountering is the ball-screw, rail or belt drive for a build. Anyone have an opinion or thoughts? Pros/Cons?

Thanks in advvance and I hope all are having a great Saturday night- the wife gave me the night off so Im grubbing through a host of CNC links!

Be safe folks!

 

[Boswell]

so what is it that you want to cut? Wood, Aluminum, Steel, Plastic? A gantry system that might use belts to move the head around would be a mess for Steel.
What kind of accuracy do you want to hold. Many people on this forum would likely think that plus or minus .001" would be the minimum accuracy to metal work. It would probably be overkill for wood (but I don't really know). Ball Screws seem to be the best for reducing backlash and that needed to maintain tight tolerances in CNC systems. I am sure more people will jump in here but how you answer these two questions will determine a lot of what choices to make. BTW, are you thinking of building the structure or buying a manual Mill and converting it?

 

[silverforgestudio]

@Boswell- So to answer your questions- I want to cut waxes and patterns for investment casting with a smaller mill... and I have dreams of a larger mill (think X-carve or Shapeoko) for doing wood/aluminum.

This adventure wasn't really a part of the plan initially so its been a good exercise in scrounging for information and seeing what is really out there. I still am UN-familiar with things like expected tolerances and what is considered a "tight" machine so pardon my ignorance a bit as this is added to the learning curve.

In wax- I want to carve things like belt buckles and other pattern items- but am fast realizing I will need a 4th axis. So detail work and tighter tolerances. I may be getting too ambitious there as well as the Vexta steppers Im not sure how "smooth" of an arc they can carve (the Vexta are 1.8 degree and I do not think they can half-step... so that may be a bit rough for resolution in smaller spaces/carvings)

The larger mill would be for patternmaking for greensand castings as well as things like plates and jig building for other hobbbies. The larger option will be on the back burner as my little motor cache has good chops for a bit of push and pull... but not enough muscle to grind through harder (more resistive) materials.

The limitations of the size of the steppers and now the understanding I've got a few servos instead of steppers limits my build.

And I plan on building the structure- I have a foundry and capability to do some machine work- and with a smaller unit it may be just a big enough project to not overwhelm the real-estate on my bench.