MT2 Holder stuck in taper

[woodchucker]

@C-Bag thank you. Great idea.
I took the head off, propped the end of the quill on some heavy parallels, fit the fork, I had to grind / file it open to fit.. Which was what I wanted a good fit. And it took quite a number of blows to loosen it. I don't think the bearings took the force by propping the quill the way I did. When I was banging on the draw bar last night I do believe I may have brinelled the bearings. That was a lot of force. I am done for the day. The last few days have had too many issues, one thing after another. So I can relax. I will build a new draw bar. I like the way mine is setup so it self ejects the taper. Not sure why this one jammed up. I stuck my finger up, nothing up there, I can't see anything, the holder was clean. There were not enough threads in my opinion engaged. My new draw bar will be longer. I may also go to a hex on top vs a square, thinking that there would be more surface area, and less prone to twisting.
I have some 12L14 but considering using 1144 for the new draw bar. I have to silver solder a washer onto the end to make it work with the topper on the quill.

@DAT510 yep, thanks, but I was very familiar with them. I have made my own in the past for servicing some chucks. Just then I had a mill.. I was not looking forward to sanding the taper ...

BTW the hf forks are soft. The end mill holder cut into the metal of the fork. My old forks never had that happen. I am sure they were drop forged, these may have been cast. Of course now that I am relaxed, I think I have an idea where my tie rod fork is... But for $10 I am not going to complain.

As far as bearings, I hope I don't need them. I would have to find NOS. Years ago a guy on here posted about replacing them, we had pm'd back and forth, and his solution was to find a looser class of bearing. A c3 if I remember. I would not want to go to a looser bearing. I want to keep it tight.

 

[woodchucker]

I guess I'm confused here. A Morse taper is a locking taper and force applied from machining operations and/or a drawbar can seat it well but I have never had a situation where it couldn't be released.

I have an MT2 taper and a drawbar to retain it for my lathe. To release the taper, I loosen the drawbar a couple of turns and tap the end of the drawbar. If that is your setup, I would just reinstall the drawbar, and give it a sharp rap with a hammer. Make sure that the drawbar engages several threads to prevent damage to the MT2 holder. If the drawbar is damaged beyond use, a length of steel bar should also work. Just use a bar of larger diameter than the drawbar threads. 1/2" or 9/16" should work fine.

I know that a draw bar can be hammered and release the collet. If you read up in my post, I had tried this without result.
I had pounded it to smithereens and no luck.

The draw bar in a Clausing is 3/8.. That's all that fits in the quill. No larger. So the rod flexes as you hit it. The slight amount of room in the sleeve is enough to allow it to coil like a spring (think like a sine wave : exaggeration but you get the point I think). It's not large enough to transfer enough energy. I have had a lock up before. I would not use all thread because of how little strength that will impart in compression. In tension all thread is fine.

 

[C-Bag]

@C-Bag thank you. Great idea.
I took the head off, propped the end of the quill on some heavy parallels, fit the fork, I had to grind / file it open to fit.. Which was what I wanted a good fit. And it took quite a number of blows to loosen it. I don't think the bearings took the force by propping the quill the way I did. When I was banging on the draw bar last night I do believe I may have brinelled the bearings. That was a lot of force. I am done for the day. The last few days have had too many issues, one thing after another. So I can relax. I will build a new draw bar. I like the way mine is setup so it self ejects the taper. Not sure why this one jammed up. I stuck my finger up, nothing up there, I can't see anything, the holder was clean. There were not enough threads in my opinion engaged. My new draw bar will be longer. I may also go to a hex on top vs a square, thinking that there would be more surface area, and less prone to twisting.
I have some 12L14 but considering using 1144 for the new draw bar. I have to silver solder a washer onto the end to make it work with the topper on the quill.

@DAT510 yep, thanks, but I was very familiar with them. I have made my own in the past for servicing some chucks. Just then I had a mill.. I was not looking forward to sanding the taper ...

BTW the hf forks are soft. The end mill holder cut into the metal of the fork. My old forks never had that happen. I am sure they were drop forged, these may have been cast. Of course now that I am relaxed, I think I have an idea where my tie rod fork is... But for $10 I am not going to complain.

As far as bearings, I hope I don't need them. I would have to find NOS. Years ago a guy on here posted about replacing them, we had pm'd back and forth, and his solution was to find a looser class of bearing. A c3 if I remember. I would not want to go to a looser bearing. I want to keep it tight.

I’m so glad that worked Jeff. I’ve had several of my R8’s of dubious quality go in really tight and was sure I was in for it when I tried to remove it, but they came out just fine. I know exactly where both my pickle forks are as they have gotten me out of some tight messes.

 

[tq60]

Using a butterfly impact...?

That may be your problem.

Just for fun, use same tool on same size bolt, put something in the vise to bolt together and use your Impact the exact same way.

Now get a torque wrench and see how much torque is needed to get it loose.

We have a BP, host use a wrench to tighten, fingers can spin it most of the way.

We likely are not doing as tight as needed but have not stuck one yet.

You have limited power, no need to be able to hold for 10 hp when you only have 1.

Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk

 

[JPMacG]

I have had MT2 tapers get stuck in my mill. I once had to beat on a solid steel bar with a 5 lb sledge hammer. AFAIK I did not damage the bearings, but I was very worried.

Why the mill's MT2 taper usually releases easily but sometimes gets stubbornly stuck is a mystery. My lathe headstock uses an MT3 and has never been a problem. My lathe's tailstock uses an MT2 and that has never been a problem.

 

[woodchucker]

Using a butterfly impact...?

That may be your problem.

Just for fun, use same tool on same size bolt, put something in the vise to bolt together and use your Impact the exact same way.

Now get a torque wrench and see how much torque is needed to get it loose.

We have a BP, host use a wrench to tighten, fingers can spin it most of the way.

We likely are not doing as tight as needed but have not stuck one yet.

You have limited power, no need to be able to hold for 10 hp when you only have 1.

Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk

I have had more problems tightening by hand than with the butterfly. I mostly have problems getting the collet undone. I don't use the tap it out method, I use the topper on this to force it back out. As I discovered the other day, I bent the drawbar trying to pound it out. The 3/8 is tightly captured until the area where the taper fits in. Then it is open, the draw bar bent trying to force it out. Also because the bar is 3/8, its very springy, so it does not send a lot of energy down when tapping, or actually unscrewing. I wish it had a bigger bar capability. Even 1/2 would be much better.

 

[G-ManBart]

I had something similar happen with a newly acquired 8520 and before I did a search here I remembered the Jacob's chuck wedge trick. I was going to post a thread on the topic, but did a search and found this one. I won't create a duplicate topic, but figured the pictures might help someone. I made the wedges for drill chucks so I had to open up the slots a bit...gave me the first chance to use the Clausing.

Two wedges...use two hammers alternating hitting from one side with the other hammer supporting the opposite wedge (sort of like an anvil/hammer setup) and it took maybe 30 seconds to pop the end mill holder loose. I put scrap steel plates on the table and then piled some shop rags on the steel plates to protect the older....worked well. I'm pretty sure that end mill holder had been in there for ages!

 

[rock_breaker]

Would it be possible to use 2 pieces angle iron. 2 pieces of 1/2" all thread, a haudraulic jack and a stout piece of shafting to make an extended ram? My interpretation is that a small piece of steel or ? has gouged into the morse taper and the mill spindle, hopefully I am wrong.

 

[Jake M]

Using a butterfly impact...?

That may be your problem.

Just for fun, use same tool on same size bolt, put something in the vise to bolt together and use your Impact the exact same way.

Now get a torque wrench and see how much torque is needed to get it loose.

I like this, and I recommend it to anyone who "impacts" things regularly. One quickly finds that impact guns are very unpredictable, until you start reaching the top of their range, that's when they become kind of predictable, and give you a feel for what's happening.

The method though- Backing off, from static to dynamic friction, is the biggest problem, but there's a dozen other factors that make this a decievingly inaccurate way of double checking. Depending on the bolt size, head design, length of the threads engaged, the percent of yield that you're at, and amazingly to me, how long it has sat there. (I'm talking about a second or two, ten seconds, several minutes, a couple of days. Not rust and that sort of thing, the clean metal...) it might be 15 to 60 percent deceiving. The way to double check yourself is as you said, impact the bolt to "just right", but then mark the bolt (or the socket), back the bolt off (make sure the torque wrench is a style that allows this without damage, or use a different wrench to back up), and then tighten the bolt to that marked position. That's where you'll read the torque from, is what it took to repeat the position. Not what it took to unscrew it.

 

[tq60]

My suggestion for the impact wrench then torque wrench is not to calibrate the use of impact wrench but instead to measure the general amount of torque applied.

The abundance of battery operated impact screwdrivers has caused many a striped screw.

We see folks using them to install equipment that somehow just will not stay in place.

The variable peed ones allow for slowing down and avoiding stripping but this still requires knowing what you are doing.

The TEK screws allow fast bad work where the old days of drill the hole then drive screw in by hand took much linger but better results with general skill set.

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