Mills for Gunsmiths

[MC]

Years ago I bought a HF round column mill and it has worked pretty well. I have built AR's and 1911's using it and the products have turned out rather well. To me a DRO is a option I cannot afford but I have a fair amount of experience running a mill. I recommend a knee mill though and as heavy as you can afford. Between work holding equipment and tooling you can burn through a pile of money. Nothing destroys tooling faster than a mill.

I have absolutely no mill experience other than watching videos but I'm very comfortable with hand tools. I hear what you're saying about knee mills but they're a little steep for a hobbyist starting out. I often tend to overdo it on purchase but I'm not sure I could in this hobby.

 

[wrmiller]

A little background, I've been building 1911's, AR's and doing minor smithing on my own guns for several years now. Mostly filing, fitting and finishing. I'm getting the bug to buy a mill and just came into a substantial bonus check that has me even more motivated. The Precision Matthews models with the 3-axis DRO look particularly interesting but the reality is I have about zero real experience machining, just watching videos. In fact other than the recent smithing, drafting experience, and some seventh grade metalshop I have very little experience with metal. I am an experienced woodworker however.

My machine budget is ~3K and I realize there is substantial tooling that needs to be purchased as well. Any recommendations on the PM machines or others. I'm not inclined to buy a used Bridgeport, etc. because I really don't know what I'm looking at.

Thanks,

Mike

Hi Mike, does your ~3K budget have to cover tooling also, or just the machine?

 

[mksj]

As a starter mill, I really like the PM-727V and leaves a lot of budget for a DRO, power feed and tooling. The travel (X, Y and Z) are very commendable for a mill of this size. Seems to be a new model that has a 6 speed gearhead plus variable speed so effectively it equivalent to a large Hp variable speed mill that usually have only 2 speeds, and you get 40-3000 RPM on the PM727V. With the 3 axis DRO, a X axis power feed, and the 5" Homge ultra hi precision swivel base vise you are at your 3K budget. You will want to add a R8 collet set, a High Precision Keyless Drill Chuck, some end mills/cutters, and probably a 52 piece 12 mm clamping set. The stand will be another 2 bills.

http://www.precisionmatthews.com/shop/pm-727v/

 

[tweinke]

As a starter mill, I really like the PM-727V and leaves a lot of budget for a DRO, power feed and tooling. The travel (X, Y and Z) are very commendable for a mill of this size. Seems to be a new model that has a 6 speed gearhead plus variable speed so effectively it equivalent to a large Hp variable speed mill that usually have only 2 speeds, and you get 40-3000 RPM on the PM727V. With the 3 axis DRO, a X axis power feed, and the 5" Homge ultra hi precision swivel base vise you are at your 3K budget. You will want to add a R8 collet set, a High Precision Keyless Drill Chuck, some end mills/cutters, and probably a 52 piece 12 mm clamping set. The stand will be another 2 bills.

http://www.precisionmatthews.com/shop/pm-727v/

I agree with mksj on the 727v if the v model would have been out when I bought my 727m that's what I would have gotten. I have been very satisfied with my 727m, good size work envelope for its size and it behaves well for a mid size machine in its price point. It certainly is not a Bridgeport or the like but satisfies my needs well for size vs cost and shop space.

 

[MC]

Hi Mike, does your ~3K budget have to cover tooling also, or just the machine?

My rationalized separation is that should be the Mill w/DRO + base. It's not a hard and fast budget as much as a target. I've been known to get excited and overbuy but that doesn't appear to be the danger here. The best description is I'm trying to get my feet wet with something I won't regret and can do a reasonable job. If I have to mill a little proud and fit rails with files, I'm ok with it knowing I'm starting with a more even base. And my guess it that's worse case.

 

[MC]

As a starter mill, I really like the PM-727V and leaves a lot of budget for a DRO, power feed and tooling. The travel (X, Y and Z) are very commendable for a mill of this size. Seems to be a new model that has a 6 speed gearhead plus variable speed so effectively it equivalent to a large Hp variable speed mill that usually have only 2 speeds, and you get 40-3000 RPM on the PM727V. With the 3 axis DRO, a X axis power feed, and the 5" Homge ultra hi precision swivel base vise you are at your 3K budget. You will want to add a R8 collet set, a High Precision Keyless Drill Chuck, some end mills/cutters, and probably a 52 piece 12 mm clamping set. The stand will be another 2 bills.

http://www.precisionmatthews.com/shop/pm-727v/

The 727 is on my short list as is the 30MV and maybe even the 932. They start to stretch my mental budget but I'm really good at self-justification. Pretty much a pro at it if you ask my wife.

 

[mksj]

The 833T doesn't appear to have a 3-axis DRO option from PM at least from my early research.

All you have to do is ask, they can outfit whatever you want at a price. But for the 833T you are looking at 3.6K with a stand, almost 4K with an X powerfeed (which you are going to want) and say another $500-700 if they install the DRO. Almost all these benchtop models come with a spindle DRO, so I would just get an inexpensive 2 axis DRO for X and Y. A column scale (Z axis) is icing on the cake, but I never needed one on my previous bench top mill. A basic 2 axis DRO with scales will run about $200-300 for ones with glass scales, the DRO/scales are fairly easy to install and you save a lot of $$. A great first time project and lots of info online and here. With the new 727V, you get a wider speed range, the only advantage on the PM-30MV is gaining 7" of X travel and belt drives are quieter. The PM-30MV is 220V only. Size wise, the PM-727V is a sweet smaller mill. I would probably bypass the PM-30MV and go directly to the PM-932Mw/3axPMDRO at 3K with DRO, X and Z axis drives. At 1100 lbs with the stand it is a much beefier mill, and you will love those power drives. On these heavier bench tops, cranking the head (Z axis) up and down gets old very fast.

So if you want to blow your budget, then the 833T is definitely a lot more capable and refined mill, but when all is said and done you will be doubling your budget when you start adding a DRO, power feed, vise, and tooling. Think of what you will be doing, and what you think your needs will be. If in 1-2 years you out grow the smaller mill, should be very easy to sell or use the smaller mill for secondary operation work.

Your are transitioning from wood to metal, so at least you have the skills around machinery. I was in the same position 6 years ago, and milling (and for that matter turning which I got into 3 years ago) came very naturally to me. Like wood, you look at what the material/chips are doing and the feel of the machine, there is lots of reference material as to how to get started. Like wood working, always have a healthy respect for using the machinery and never get lackadaisical when operating it. If you do not know, then ask and read first.

All good choices, Good luck.

 

[wrmiller]

You will want as much vertical travel as you can get, and the best rigidity/mass you can get in your price range. Most of my work is done in a vise and if I have to use a drill chuck to drill a receiver or top end you can run out of room real quick. Also, the heavier machines will be more stable with the head raised up towards the top of the column.

I guess it really depends on if you're shopping for a starter machine that you will later upgrade, or you are looking to buy once and enjoy forever. Knowing what I do now, if I was shopping for a good bench mill for pistolsmithing/gunsmithing I wouldn't even hesitate: I'd get the 833. Even if I had to wait a few months to be able to afford a good dro for it. Second priority would be a really good quality vise. And then a good quality DRO

The 833 is a very high quality mill from a materials (castings), and machining standpoint. Necessary for accurate and repeatable positioning IMO. The higher quality castings do a better job of dampening vibrations too, which means you will be spending less time cleaning up tooling marks in whatever you are milling. The hardened and ground gears will also 'print' less on your machining. And hand scraped ways. On top of that it already has a one-shot oiler on it which will extend the life of your machine. I put one on my 9x40 when I had that and the difference was very noticable.

The 940 or 932 might need some 'tuning' on your part to get them where you want them functionally. Depends on your level of pickiness I guess.

 

[brav65]

The 833T doesn't appear to have a 3-axis DRO option from PM at least from my early research. I'm inclined to get a mill with DRO and would prefer not to add it after the fact. All that said I appreciate all the inputs because I'm just rank beginner on all this.

Don’t Ben afraid of installing a DRO it is pretty easy, I did it and had zero machining experience.

 

[Hozzie]

If your budget is firm, the 932 is really your only choice, especially if you want a base and any powerfeed. I don't have down powerfeed, but I do have X PowerFeed and I bought a DRO from Matt later and put it on myself. All in, I am probably at $3100 or so. I also do my own gunsmithing, but only on rifles, but I think it will do anything you need. It won't be finished as well as the 833, but it isn't a bad machine.

If you move the budget up to 4k, then definitely go with the 833. I have the 932M and the 1440GS lathe. Had I to do it over again, I would definitely go with the 1440GT or 1340GT as I see a bigger difference in the quality of the lathe than the quality of the mill (at least for my use).

Actually in the next couple of years I will probably move up to one of his Knee Mills and 1440GT lathe, but for now, the ones I have do the job just fine.