Machining 4140 Chrome Moly

Thanks all, HSS it is. This is just what I wanted to hear. Although I like carbide for its speed and finish, I always have better luck sneaking up on a precise dimension with HSS. There's many a time that I hog something down with carbide and then switch to HSS for that final pass or two.
Ed P
 
I said nothing about HSS inserts. I referred to carbide. But,HSS inserts do exist. Perhaps for those who cannot learn to grind their tools? I'd never have bought them,even when I was starting out,I could grind tools properly.

Carbide FINISH? HSS will deliver a better finish if used correctly. HSS will take a keener edge.

This 8" long cannon is in as turned condition,cut with HSS tools. Not yet polished with any abrasives at all. I don't know if I will bother to polish it. The little moldings around the barrel,and the cascabel knob,and the ogees at the breech,and all other fancy work were cut with W1 carbon steel cutters I filed out with needle files and hardened. They could do a hundred barrels like this with little wear. I make my knurls out of carbon steel,too. No knurling here,but my other pictures that show old fashioned microscope knurling were made by me from carbon steel.

Remember,those great looking old time steam engines,locomotives,and iron clad ships were all made with carbon steel tools,often lubricated with soapy water. Soapy water was used in English shipyards to drill holes in armor plate,with carbon steel drills. They just ran them slow.

They'd have thought they'd died and gone to Heaven if they suddenly had HSS tools to use!!!:)

Also see an 18th. C. fancy pencil that uses 3 MM leads. I had no 3MM leads on hand,so just turned down a pencil to initially use. All the moldings were made with W1 cutters,and the rope knurl was made from W1 also. This was left as turned with W1 and HSS tools. I have no means to harden HSS.

canon 5.jpg IMG_0191.JPG IMG_0192.JPG
 
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I'll be cutting a Savage breech plug into a McGowen barrel that they advertise as "4140 Chrome Moly" steel. Can I use HSS steel tool bits on that or do I need carbide? I regularly turn & bore with both but my threading bits are all HSS.
Thx
Ed P

Generally find the harder the material has been hardened to it will machine better with carbide if its N the finish with carbide is not very smooth here we find comercial 4140 is imported hardened to about 27-30 Rockwell C HSS works ok
R
 
On the issue of HSS vs Carbide... I really think BOTH are valuable tools and it's good to learn both. HSS is probably cheaper for the home hobbyist and furthermore, unless you're working with sharpened carbide (as is the case with carbide threading inserts) there's no way you can use it to take off 1 or 2 thou and get a clean finish. Only HSS can do that. Also, as George pointed-out, many lathes cannot muster-up the RPMs and power needed to cut with carbide when working on stock less than about 3/4" diameter. Once you get below 3/4" you need to spin about 1500 RPM (or more) to use carbide.

As for finish... With soft steel, no bit (HSS or carbide) will give you a mirror finish -smooth, yes, mirror no. I'm able to get mirror finishes on brass or bronze using HSS but not when working on soft steel.

With that said, when I work on moderately hard steel (Rockwell 25 up to about 38) I can put an absolute mirror finish on metal that almost looks like it was chrome plated. The lathe is nothing special, just a 1236 gearhead with 1.5 HP motor that spins up to 1800 RPM. I can never do that with HSS -and then again, there are times I undercut a piece by a few thou and when that happens, good old HSS will save the day. The finish might not look glossy but in the end, I get the diameter I need...

They're both necessary -if you ask me...

Ray
 
On the issue of HSS vs Carbide... I really think BOTH are valuable tools and it's good to learn both. HSS is probably cheaper for the home hobbyist and furthermore, unless you're working with sharpened carbide (as is the case with carbide threading inserts) there's no way you can use it to take off 1 or 2 thou and get a clean finish. Only HSS can do that. Also, as George pointed-out, many lathes cannot muster-up the RPMs and power needed to cut with carbide when working on stock less than about 3/4" diameter. Once you get below 3/4" you need to spin about 1500 RPM (or more) to use carbide.

As for finish... With soft steel, no bit (HSS or carbide) will give you a mirror finish -smooth, yes, mirror no. I'm able to get mirror finishes on brass or bronze using HSS but not when working on soft steel.

With that said, when I work on moderately hard steel (Rockwell 25 up to about 38) I can put an absolute mirror finish on metal that almost looks like it was chrome plated. The lathe is nothing special, just a 1236 gearhead with 1.5 HP motor that spins up to 1800 RPM. I can never do that with HSS -and then again, there are times I undercut a piece by a few thou and when that happens, good old HSS will save the day. The finish might not look glossy but in the end, I get the diameter I need...

They're both necessary -if you ask me...

Ray
Yeah, I hear that. The harder I push my carbide tooling the better it works but on something that's already got a lot in it or that belongs to some one else I just don't have the confidence to take a heavy cut right down to size. I usually have that pesky cupla thou that I have to take care of with HSS. Thanks, Ray
Ed P
 
Yeah, I hear that. The harder I push my carbide tooling the better it works but on something that's already got a lot in it or that belongs to some one else I just don't have the confidence to take a heavy cut right down to size. I usually have that pesky cupla thou that I have to take care of with HSS. Thanks, Ray
Ed P

One word: Practice!
 
The whole issue here is that it seems that all too many guys never learned to grind a tool bit; 50 some odd years ago, my machine shop teacher, who had apprenticed to the trade and taught at the Mare Island Navy Yard apprentice school during WW-2 gave each student a piece of key stock and showed them how to grind a turning tool; when he showed proficiency, he was given a new 1/4" HSS tool bit, and it was his for the semester, same thing for a threading and round nose tool. Folks nowadays seem not to even want to learn how to grind a tool, and yes, most have lathes that cannot use carbide to any advantage due to lack of speed, power and ridgidity.
It was a big learning curve when I started apprenticeship in a shop that used carbide for most work other than threading and form tools. Some guys thought that they were cutting the fat hog using carbide on the planer (6 ft X 6ft X 15 ft with 35 horsepower) With a properly ground HSS tool I was able to take roughing cuts on it more than twice the depth and feed and equally as fast travel.
Bottom line, carbide is vastly over rated for the hobbyist, especially for threading; they are way too easy to chip and expensive; I use a form ground threading tool from Aloris, it is a wonderful thing, as you just grind it on top to sharpen it, and they last a long time and are automaticly set to the proper alignment when the holder is clamped up. They are also available in the acme thread form. The holder is made so that the tool can be used upside down for left hand threading using spindle reverse and traveling from right to left; this does not work so well for lighter machines and threaded on chucks that cannot be run up good and tight!
 
I never managed to unscrew a chuck threading upside down,not even on my first lathe,a 12" Sears Atlas. Guess I knew how to screw a chuck on. And how heavy a cut to take.

I did have instruction from an old Navy machinist in college. Every old lathe had a screw on chuck,I think. I was assigned a beat 16" South bend. It cut a .015" bulge in a 24" cylinder. He could whack a piece of plate held vertical in a milling machine vise,take a 2nd. cut,and have it come out square. Learned a few good tricks from him.

This guy wore old WWII vintage neckties,real short,fat ones with hula girls on them!! Always pulled loose,and never clean. The college was making him take night classes to get a degree,which was really stupid. He had knowledge and experience that no silly pedagogical experience in some classroom was going to help one whit. This was in the early 60's. He continued to let me go back there and use machines after my classes were done. The machine shop was located under the concrete stadium of the college. It was populated with old WWII war board marking machines. Lots of wear. They had little steel,but a huge amount of brass. I recall a huge propeller shaft at least 12" in diameter and 20' long laying on the floor. How they picked it up to get it on a saw,I have no idea(or what kept it from crushing the saw,either!!) This was the nature of pickings from Federal surplus back then.

My classmates were ALL retired Navy chiefs going on the G.I. bill. I was the only one fresh out of high school. Great bunch. One made a wheel for a go kart out of BRASS!! He made a huge amount of shavings. It was terribly wasteful,but we had brass on hand that size,not steel.
 
The whole issue here is that it seems that all too many guys never learned to grind a tool bit; 50 some odd years ago, my machine shop teacher, who had apprenticed to the trade and taught at the Mare Island Navy Yard apprentice school during WW-2 gave each student a piece of key stock and showed them how to grind a turning tool; when he showed proficiency, he was given a new 1/4" HSS tool bit, and it was his for the semester, same thing for a threading and round nose tool. Folks nowadays seem not to even want to learn how to grind a tool, and yes, most have lathes that cannot use carbide to any advantage due to lack of speed, power and ridgidity.
It was a big learning curve when I started apprenticeship in a shop that used carbide for most work other than threading and form tools. Some guys thought that they were cutting the fat hog using carbide on the planer (6 ft X 6ft X 15 ft with 35 horsepower) With a properly ground HSS tool I was able to take roughing cuts on it more than twice the depth and feed and equally as fast travel.
Bottom line, carbide is vastly over rated for the hobbyist, especially for threading; they are way too easy to chip and expensive; I use a form ground threading tool from Aloris, it is a wonderful thing, as you just grind it on top to sharpen it, and they last a long time and are automaticly set to the proper alignment when the holder is clamped up. They are also available in the acme thread form. The holder is made so that the tool can be used upside down for left hand threading using spindle reverse and traveling from right to left; this does not work so well for lighter machines and threaded on chucks that cannot be run up good and tight!
John, AKA benmychree, wrote this seven years ago.
It seems to be just as relevant today as it was then . The more I learn, the more I'm turning to HSS. I still love carbide but HSS works very well too.
I have been working with annealed 4140, when I'm done I'll have to do a DIY heat treat.
John told me a while back, when I asked, Can I machine hardened 4140? >>"Yes, it is machinable, just slow down a bit and take enough feed that it breaks the chips, don’t baby it with tiny depth of cuts. It’s good stuff."">>

It does, be it carbide or HSS tooling.
I appreciate the wisdom of these guys/gals. We are so fortunate to have them in our forum.
Very few of the members that were active five years ago post today.
It's too bad.
 
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