[Newbie] LMS 5100/7350 vs. Grizzly G0602

[addertooth]

The plastic gears are a snap to replace. You undo an allen head bolt, and pry the plastic gear off... slide on the metal one, and tighten the allen screw back down. It took me about 5 minutes to do a full gear change from plastic to metal. Like you, I saw some videos of people damaging the plastic gears, and was equally concerned. Now, with 2020 hindsight, I realized that the damaged plastic gears might have been an effect of them stalling the lathe, or crashing the carriage into the chuck. There are people who have used the plastic gears for years with no problems. You do have to pay more attention to adjusting the "banjo" (a simple mechanism which adjusts the Lash between the gears), when you have plastic gears for the fullest engagement without friction.

 

[Boswell]

I've been very happy with the Grizzly machines that I have bought over the years. (and btw, I don't own a monster truck). I also have a PM-45M that I am just as happy with. Never used any tools from LMS so can't comment on them. As for lifting. Many engine hoist will easily disassemble into more manageable pieces. If that does not work then you can go the Egyption route and use ramps or incremental cribbing techniques. Lots of ways to lift heavy things.

 

[Aaron_W]

You've got a jump between the LMS lathes and the Grizzly 10x22, the 8x16 (Grizzly G0768) and 9x20 (Grizzly G4000) lathes are substantially larger / heavier than the 7x16, but more manageable to move than a 10x22. My 9x20 was a fairly easy job to load in the truck with two people (myself and the seller) without any disassembly. You would have to be prudent but I suspect with some ingenuity it would be possible to figure out a way to get it onto a bench with one person, and some disassembly.

A 10x22 at over 300lbs would still be pretty strenuous and really demands some mechanical help or a couple of strong friends. The 8x16 weighs around 150lbs, the 9x20 250lbs but you can knock off a fair amount of weight by removing the chuck, carriage and tail stock.

LMS also sells an 8.5x20 which falls right between the common 8x16 and 9x20 and I'm really not sure which machine it is more closely related to. It is substantially more expense though and getting close to the cost of the PM1022.


Another option for going with the larger lathe, is making a wheeled stand. Then you could use an engine hoist outside the garage where you have some room to get it onto the stand and then wheel it inside. Use locking or retracting castors or just jack it up off the wheels and block it once it is in place if you don't need to move it around.
The 9x20 I have, a prior owner mounted the factory stand on some 2x6"s and then mounted castors. It works pretty well, and the 2x6s are long enough to make it pretty stable.

Lathes on wheels are generally not considered ideal but on a short squatty lathe like a 10x22 probably not that big of an issue.

 

[RJSakowski]

When I moved my G0602 up to the bench in my basement shop, I used a sky hook and a come-along. The sky hook consisted of a length of 1" threaded rod straddling two floor joists with a piece of 1" pipe for a spacer. Considering that there is no concern about several people standing close together on the floor above< I was confident that the rig was capable of supporting the weight of the lathe.

I located the bar at the center of the 2 X 8" joist. Nuts and washers were used to securely fasten the rig.

 

[Scorn64]

I've been very happy with the Grizzly machines that I have bought over the years. (and btw, I don't own a monster truck). I also have a PM-45M that I am just as happy with. Never used any tools from LMS so can't comment on them. As for lifting. Many engine hoist will easily disassemble into more manageable pieces. If that does not work then you can go the Egyption route and use ramps or incremental cribbing techniques. Lots of ways to lift heavy things.

I’m leaning toward the Egyptian route but I think I’m going to limit the weight to about 250 pounds. I’m currently looking at the Grizzly G4000. I don’t think it’s as good a deal as the 602 but the 400+ pounds is more than I want to deal with. I do like that the 4000 has a quick change gear box. They aren’t in stock, but it says more on the way. Hopefully it hasn’t said that for years.
Has anyone had any experience with the G4000?

 

[Aaron_W]

I’m leaning toward the Egyptian route but I think I’m going to limit the weight to about 250 pounds. I’m currently looking at the Grizzly G4000. I don’t think it’s as good a deal as the 602 but the 400+ pounds is more than I want to deal with. I do like that the 4000 has a quick change gear box. They aren’t in stock, but it says more on the way. Hopefully it hasn’t said that for years.
Has anyone had any experience with the G4000?

If you look at the different vendors many are having issues with stocking lathes right now.


I have an older Enco 9x20 which is essentially the same lathe. I've even used Grizzly parts on it. There are several members here who have one of the 9x20 variations including the G4000. Mine was bought last year sort of as a project so I haven't done a lot with it, but my initial impressions are that it is a decent small lathe, and certainly seems better put together than the Harbor Freight 7x10 which is the only 7" lathe I've seen up close. I'm sure the LMS is nicer as well.

From a space perspective you get a lot of lathe packed into 3 feet (well technically 37"). It is only a few inches longer than my Sherline lathe although much heavier. The 10x22 lathes are about a foot longer.

There is a fairly large community of 9x20 owners and tons of improvements online that people have done to make to these lathes better. Glass is half empty, they have room for improvement, glass is half full there is ready access to ways to make them better.
As they come I don't see any critical deficiencies other than size / weight and that will apply to most small lathes, the improvements are more in the nature of fine tuning to individual wants / needs. The basic design was taken from the Emco Compact 8, so it has been around for 40+ years.

A couple of things with the 9x20. It does not have a reverse or backgear. Few of these smaller import lathes do have a backgear, so it is not a particular failing of this design. I believe the Grizzly G0602 also lacks a reverse, so not losing anything there. There are plans for adding a reverse gear that does not seem terribly complex. At least one member here has made a back gear set up for his 9x20.

It is a belt drive so you change spindle speeds by moving the belts on the pulleys, most of the the 7" and 8" lathes (and some of the 10x22) are variable speed, so you just turn the knob to change speeds. Variable speed is nice, but I don't find belt changes to be a big deal.

The gear box is mostly to control the power feed speed. You can do a few different threads on a set of change gears, but you will still be dealing with change gears to do threading. This is true on any of the import lathes until you get up to the 12" size or $6000+ budget. Ability to get a full quick change gear box on a small lathe is one of the biggest advantages small vintage lathes have over the current batch.

The G4000 has a metric M39 threaded spindle which is basically unique to the 9x20. It would have been nice if they used the more common 1-1/2"x8 as there are a lot more used chucks out there using that thread.

The G0602 is a bigger heavier lathe, but it seems to have most of the same good and bad points as the G4000, the main advantage being a 25mm (1") spindle bore vs 20mm (0.78").

 

[higgite]

I’m leaning toward the Egyptian route but I think I’m going to limit the weight to about 250 pounds. I’m currently looking at the Grizzly G4000. I don’t think it’s as good a deal as the 602 but the 400+ pounds is more than I want to deal with. I do like that the 4000 has a quick change gear box. They aren’t in stock, but it says more on the way. Hopefully it hasn’t said that for years.
Has anyone had any experience with the G4000?

FWIW, the G0602 weighs 330 lbs. The 400+ lbs is the shipping weight, 432 to be exact.

Also FWIW, I have an LMS 5500, 8-1/2 x 20, bench lathe, which is the predecessor to their current 7500 model, the main difference being the control panel. Both weigh 220 lbs, which was light enough for my son and I to lift and set it on a rolling tool chest from Lowe’s or Home Depot, I forget which. It has worked out well for my small work area. I roll it into its own little niche in the corner out of the way when idle and being on casters has not been a problem when using it. I have never used a Grizzly machine for comparison, but thought this info might be helpful.

Tom

 

[Scorn64]

FWIW, the G0602 weighs 330 lbs. The 400+ lbs is the shipping weight, 432 to be exact.

Also FWIW, I have an LMS 5500, 8-1/2 x 20, bench lathe, which is the predecessor to their current 7500 model, the main difference being the control panel. Both weigh 220 lbs, which was light enough for my son and I to lift and set it on a rolling tool chest from Lowe’s or Home Depot, I forget which. It has worked out well for my small work area. I roll it into its own little niche in the corner out of the way when idle and being on casters has not been a problem when using it. I have never used a Grizzly machine for comparison, but thought this info might be helpful.

Tom

I feel much better about dealing with this size than the larger. I also liked that their were no gears in the spindle vs. the smaller.

I’m wanting to buy a mill after this and I want to be able to create some of my own tools. I started out my adult life as a welder/fabricator but ended up a automation software engineer the last 25 years so I’m kind going back to my first interests. I know the LMS is going to be a much better lathe but the cost would delay me from buying a mill (and lathe accessories) for a longer while.

Do you see the throw as large enough on this class lathe to make useful machinist tools?

If you look at the different vendors many are having issues with stocking lathes right now.


I have an older Enco 9x20 which is essentially the same lathe. I've even used Grizzly parts on it. There are several members here who have one of the 9x20 variations including the G4000. Mine was bought last year sort of as a project so I haven't done a lot with it, but my initial impressions are that it is a decent small lathe, and certainly seems better put together than the Harbor Freight 7x10 which is the only 7" lathe I've seen up close. I'm sure the LMS is nicer as well.

From a space perspective you get a lot of lathe packed into 3 feet (well technically 37"). It is only a few inches longer than my Sherline lathe although much heavier. The 10x22 lathes are about a foot longer.

There is a fairly large community of 9x20 owners and tons of improvements online that people have done to make to these lathes better. Glass is half empty, they have room for improvement, glass is half full there is ready access to ways to make them better.
As they come I don't see any critical deficiencies other than size / weight and that will apply to most small lathes, the improvements are more in the nature of fine tuning to individual wants / needs. The basic design was taken from the Emco Compact 8, so it has been around for 40+ years.

A couple of things with the 9x20. It does not have a reverse or backgear. Few of these smaller import lathes do have a backgear, so it is not a particular failing of this design. I believe the Grizzly G0602 also lacks a reverse, so not losing anything there. There are plans for adding a reverse gear that does not seem terribly complex. At least one member here has made a back gear set up for his 9x20.

It is a belt drive so you change spindle speeds by moving the belts on the pulleys, most of the the 7" and 8" lathes (and some of the 10x22) are variable speed, so you just turn the knob to change speeds. Variable speed is nice, but I don't find belt changes to be a big deal.

The gear box is mostly to control the power feed speed. You can do a few different threads on a set of change gears, but you will still be dealing with change gears to do threading. This is true on any of the import lathes until you get up to the 12" size or $6000+ budget. Ability to get a full quick change gear box on a small lathe is one of the biggest advantages small vintage lathes have over the current batch.

The G4000 has a metric M39 threaded spindle which is basically unique to the 9x20. It would have been nice if they used the more common 1-1/2"x8 as there are a lot more used chucks out there using that thread.

The G0602 is a bigger heavier lathe, but it seems to have most of the same good and bad points as the G4000, the main advantage being a 25mm (1") spindle bore vs 20mm (0.78").

I feel much better about dealing with this size than the larger. I also liked that their were no gears in the spindle vs. the smaller.

I’m wanting to buy a mill after this and I want to be able to create some of my own tools. I started out my adult life as a welder/fabricator but ended up a automation software engineer the last 25 years so I’m kind of going back to my first interests. I know the LMS is going to be a much better lathe but the cost would delay me from buying a mill (and lathe accessories) for a longer while. I guess the probable improved accuracy with LMS would be beneficial to tool creation though.

Do you see the throw as large enough on this class lathe to make useful lathe/mill/general machinists tools?

 

[Aaron_W]

Depends on what you want to make, but yes I think it is large enough to be useful for a lot of small tool and machine projects. I bought a small die filer kit and a minimum of a 9" lathe is recommended. The G4000 is really an 8.75" swing but based on another person that built the kit their 9x20 was just able to handle it.

Obviously the bigger the lathe the less often you think if only it were a little bigger, but 8-10" with around 20" between centers is a capable size. Until you get to a 12x36 or larger I think you are going to be stuck making some compromises, in size, quality and features.


You will also see some lathes mention having a "true imperial or inch lead screw", the G4000 and many other import machines have metric lead screws, with inch hand wheel dials, so on a larger part you need to compensate for the slight difference (25mm vs 25.4mm). Of course this doesn't really matter if you have a DRO or make a point of checking your actual sizes vs trusting the handwheels.


In addition to Grizzly and LMS, you could also look at Dro Pros. A little more than Grizzly and little less than PM. They do offer an 8x16" for about the same price as LMS's 7x16, with or without DRO and an inch lead screw, don't know if the extra 1" of swing would make you feel better about the price. I have no experience with the company. Dro Pros Weiss lathes

 

[Scorn64]

Depends on what you want to make, but yes I think it is large enough to be useful for a lot of small tool and machine projects. I bought a small die filer kit and a minimum of a 9" lathe is recommended. The G4000 is really an 8.75" swing but based on another person that built the kit their 9x20 was just able to handle it.

Obviously the bigger the lathe the less often you think if only it were a little bigger, but 8-10" with around 20" between centers is a capable size. Until you get to a 12x36 or larger I think you are going to be stuck making some compromises, in size, quality and features.


You will also see some lathes mention having a "true imperial or inch lead screw", the G4000 and many other import machines have metric lead screws, with inch hand wheel dials, so on a larger part you need to compensate for the slight difference (25mm vs 25.4mm). Of course this doesn't really matter if you have a DRO or make a point of checking your actual sizes vs trusting the handwheels.


In addition to Grizzly and LMS, you could also look at Dro Pros. A little more than Grizzly and little less than PM. They do offer an 8x16" for about the same price as LMS's 7x16, with or without DRO and an inch lead screw, don't know if the extra 1" of swing would make you feel better about the price. I have no experience with the company. Dro Pros Weiss lathes

Thank you. I hadn’t heard of Dro Pro. They are very interesting and may be closer to what I’m looking for.

I was thinking saying I want to make tools was a bit too generic. I don’t have anything specific I want to make beyond some woodworking MFT stuff that I could technically make on the little sherline I already have. I would like to make some internal acme thread stuff, but I won’t have the skills for that for a while. I just want to be able to have things to make to enjoy my investment that also have some usefulness.

As I understand it, imperial lead screw is better at doing both imperial and metric threads? I live in metric for the work I do (I work for a Japanese company) but I do want to be able to cut imperial as needed.