Jobs Employers Can't Fill

[rickard]

At the same time as these things were going on business owners less and less wanted to hire and train employees. You can see that still in the help wanted ads. They all say X number of years experience required.

Well I hate to tell you but kids got to be "TOO GOOD / Too Lazy" for the apprenticeship Program than forget them let them live in gutters! why should a Shop PAY you to TEACH YOU A SKILL that will serve you for the rest of your life ? Seriously ?

 

[Rbeckett]

Fortunately I am a product of the tech ed boom of the late 70's. I was never going to fit in a college atmosphere and I had other ideas all along. I took an industrial arts block at the local high school and never looked back. I have made decent wages through out my carreer, but I was never going to get rich. I was also going to be exposed to oils, lubricants, heavy metals and hot fumes. Stuff I would not trade for a million dollars even today. Was it ardous (SP?), heck yeah, but we all joined together and got the job done and kept the plants and factories going regularly. When I started out I was mentored by an old gray haired dude that was an A-hole. I could never meet his standard, no matter how hard I tried. He was actuallyy training me to replace him. He retired and I took his job. And thanks to him and his school of hard knocks I managed to keep the plant operating at 98+% all the time. Later I found out that our plant was the model for the rest of the company and it was all because of him. Young students today are missing so many opportunities because it has been drummed into them to go to college and get a "professional" job from child hood. I agree, the industrial arts programs need to be restarted and master craftsmen and women employed to train the next generation of machinists, electricians, electronic techs and installers. There are so many youngsters who could benefit from an industrial arts education much better than as a pro in some office. Imagine if every child had a decision to make and selected his or her carreeer path in high school and followed it. How many world class machinists and repair persons would we have? America was built on the backs of these intrepid souls and I for one am proud to be a craftman and not a Dr of some esoteric skill with no practicle value. It is time the polititcians and bean counters took stock of the situation and made the neccessary corrections before we fall firther behind and unable to fix the stuff we depend on every day. Just my humble opinion.

Bob the wheelchair craftsman

 

[jbarton]

etard,
One problem we have here is finding people that can pass a drug test. We have a real problem with meth in this part of the state and we have a no tolerance policy. We've lost some good machinist and welders because they couldn't keep away from the drugs. We have more work than we can handle right now. Working in the Engineering dept I have no idea what the pay is like. I've been told it is low for the industry... but then I wouldn't know what good is.

I think Froneck is right... take the low pay, don't complain... prove your worth. That is what happens here.. this place is a marvel for doing things that no one else can seem to do. That may be why we're so busy. Many of the best move on to high pay jobs with bigger companies... we joke that we are the training center for 3 large chemical plants... but it is true. We have people here that are under 1 year and a few with over 20 years here. We recently lost one that was the best... he went for double what he was making here... but was sad to go.

Maching wasn't my trade... CAD and Software design... has always been mine but it is the same in every industry. Prove yourself, demand respect and never put the customer down.

 

[Tony Wells]

Tony, your a good business man and a great guy so I respect your opinion on this matter. I personally would love to get into the business and I would come with a fairly decent toolbox for the trade. The fact is, I haven't seen a fair wage for experienced machinist in the area, let alone the offer for apprentice positions at $10/hr wages. MY shop teach at the local community college said he had internship positions but only for the experienced. :think1: I'm going to school, but now I need experience, huh? What would you suggest I do? Should I make a Turner Cube to prove I have some skills on a machine and just take it around to the local fab shops asking if they have work? Is it crazy enough to work?

First, thank you for the compliments. I try.

I think it is a great thing that you have enough interest to want to actually work in the field. We need more that do.

Having tools in and of itself is actually worth little to a prospective employer. That's because they're easy to get, and there's no way for them to know whether you stole them, inherited them from Grandpa, bought them at a garage sale.......or built them up over years of work in the trade. On the other hand, not having tools is a death-blow in most shops. Don't count on everyone believing what you tell them, so be conservative in stating your qualifications. Make it believable. Don't deliberately undersell, but never, ever exaggerate.

Unfortunately, there isn't an easy answer to your dilemma. And it varies across the country. I can only give you generalities, and a few specifics that apply here. When help wanted ads are placed in the paper, or employment agencies are used to screen out prospects, all sorts of people apply. The open ads bring out people who think they are machinists, people who want to be, people who used to be, and people who heard it was a good job. All sorts, in other words. The agencies sometimes do a fair job of filtering out some of that, but they can be misled also. People will lie, and are sometimes desperate for a job. Notice I said "a job", not "to work". It's to your benefit, even with little or no real shop experience, to convince the interviewer that you WILL work, not that you just want a job.

If in your area the wages are depressed, you need to know why. Is it because there is little industry? Is it because of lots of industry that has brought people flocking in from all over so that employers have their choice of a virtually unlimited pool of experienced workers? Is it because they have exhausted the pool and are now convince that no one is going to apply that is worth a top wage? Lots to find out during this process. Depending on the reason, it may not be the right area to consider for a career. What is the history of the machining industry in your area? Government contractors? Heavy industry? Oilfield? Plastics manufacturing? Durable goods? Knowing that may tell you whether the wage situation is temporary or long term.

As far as taking samples of your hobby work around, I'd say no. If you can get the interviewer to go as far as a shop tour, ask decent questions about the machines and operations you see going on. I know that can be tough if you are just starting out, but it can be done. Just don't try to sound like you know more than you do, all without revealing how little you actually do know. See note above re: exaggerating. One thing that definitely helps is knowing your prospective employer. Find out what they make, who they sell to, what their market share is, and a bit of the company history. That shows you are interested in the company in general, not just, again.....a job.

If they are really interested in hiring someone, and you want it to be you, explain your situation in such a way that you want to join for the long term and grow your own skills and experience with them, based on something you know about the company and product. If you can't do that honestly, it shows. Perceptive interviewers will pick up on that. And of course, part of all this depends on getting past HR and to the real decision makers: Shop Foreman, Plant Manager, Superintendent, etc., depending on size of the shop. Small shops you may get interviewed directly by the owner. Generally, they will be impossible to fool, since they usually are machinists themselves.

One other point usually under-emphasized is Quality Control. Do you know how to check your work? It's one thing to make stuff....yet another to determine if it meets drawing requirements. One shop I worked in had a program where new hires spent 2 weeks orientation working/training in Inspection. Seems risky, and the burden was heavy on the department, but it was easy to weed out the ones who really couldn't read a print or micrometer. On the machine, you'd better be able to defend your quality. If you don't/can't check the part you just made, you're wide open for QC to be all over you.

Looking for a trainee position, which is exactly what the case is if you have never actually worked in the profession, can be difficult. That's even more the case if the labor market is flooded. It's then like a buyers' market. Why hire you when they can hire an experienced hand? You have to provide the reason. Of course, knowing someone who works there can help. Nepotism is alive and well in machine shops. But if you don't, about all you can do is apply, hope for an interview, and see if you have opportunity to do the things I have suggested above. You may have to accept a low grade job just to get your foot in the door, even if you have mad skills. Unless you have a track record with other shops to point to, they don't exist until you pay your dues. Sometimes it isn't pleasant, sometimes it takes time, sometimes the employer takes advantage of you and hires you for grunt work, knowing you won't be advanced, but not caring, because you are filling his immediate needs. In those cases, just move on and use that experience. But never diss your former employer, no matter how bad it was. It's bad form. Use diplomatic language to describe your reason for departure if you decide to leave.

I'm sure there are other thoughts on the matter, but I've only had one cuppa so far....and I need at least one more.

Oh, and forget fab shops unless you want to be a drill press operator or something. Look for a real machine shop. Real fab shops rarely do real machining.

 

[rickard]

Etard:
The Problem you have is YES You went to a fancy school to learn how to operate the machines, but I've never in my experiences seen any one Graduate from a school Tech/Trade or College and know how to do or even What his job is! I my self can or can Figure out how to operate almost any CNC Machine out there, based on my experiences in the Tech industries and experiences with Automation systems. But I am in no way qualified to walk in to a shop and say "I CAN DO THAT JOB". the thing about the apprenticeship system is you not only learn the machines, but you also learn the Expectations of your job is and how to do it.so yea you're gona not make big pay till you prove yourself

 

[Tony Wells]

Also have to factor in the number of unemployed union machinists who are very well trained at certain tasks, and paid very well, moving into areas where businesses have historically been non-union. They can't find positions comparable to the jobs they lost, at the pay they lost. Those may be a large portion of the "machinists" who claim they can't find work. It may be that their skill set just isn't what employers in other areas need. So we may appear to have a glut in certain regions, but it is false, and the potential employers haven't figured all this out yet.

***Note: DEFINITELY not starting a union vs non-union argument.***

 

[rickard]

Not to change the subject but congress continues to issue 125,000 work Visas a month adding 1.5 million foreign workers in this country every year! Wonder where all the Jobs went and why the pay is lousy!

Frank

Well Frank at the Risk of being Punched Out by our leaders. BLAME THE UNIONS, and the AMERICAN Worker that won't work. There is NO reason on God's green Earth a man should get paid $35 + / Hr to turn bolt 37. If Unions had not got so Proud of their wages, we'd still have a Coal industry and a Steel Industry. My Mother is from DEEP southern Illinois in what was a coal Producing area of America, but then the unions came along and everybody started demanding unreasonable wages. Pretty soon it cost more to Produce the Coal than they could sell it for. NOW EVERYBODY is out of work with the mines closed, and on Welfare! If we want Mfg. Jobs back in America workers have to get real, you can't produce affordable cars if Union Labor is $35 + /hr! in my working life I have been Lucky enough to work with Japanese workers and see their work ethic. if their work station need cleaning, they will stay the extra hour to clean it, w/o overtime. if they can double their quota, they will because what is good for the company is good for them. where they will do any job that needs doing, the Lazy American will say I turn Bolt 37 19 times an hour it's in my Union Contract! No I won't sweep the work space it's not in my contract. the Japanese Worker has a symbiotic relationship with the company, while the American Worker has a adversarial Relationship.

 

[Tony Wells]

I guess I started the thinking about Unions, but only an observation. Let's not go down the Union or not trail. It ends badly. As does the Political trail. Both of those are too far away from our primary topic. I know we all have opinions, and that likely they are the same, or at least similar. But it's too negative in tone, and no need to express our harsh opinions where there likely are some who feel quite the opposite. It's just best to stop here. I won't lock the thread, it's got lots of good in it, but let's drop the Union and Political talk parts.

Thanks guys!

 

[roygpa]

I'm stuck at trying to find the exact center of a shaft).


Roy

 

[roygpa]

Can't we all just get along? I started this thread because I thought it was a good thing. Perhaps I am too simple but I thought a high demand for machinists along with a low supply, would eventually drive up wages. I didn't mean for anyone to start picking on one another or arguing. I didn't think that happened here, just on the other not so friendly sites.

Froneck: I did understand, and thanks for doubling back for confirmation.

Mods: If you see fit, please lock this thread.

thanks.

Roy