Is there a dedicated thread where techniques can be uploaded for beginners, without breaking self promotion rules?

[Parlo]

Hi, beginner here. In fact, I'm one of the people who would hugely benefit from this idea, but lack the experience to use it.

Seems paradoxical, but let me explain.

When you're a rank beginner, and you want to make a milling hammer, you look for plans to make a hammer.

Then you start trying to figure out what tooling you need to make said hammer. It's not self-explanatory so you ask 3 different machinists

Machinist A tells you you need a,b,c
Machinist B tells you you need a,c,d
Machinist C tells you you need d,f,x

And so on.

And the thing it takes a while to know is - they're all right. If you use THEIR lathe/mill, THEIR vise, and THEIR brand/size tooling - you can build a perfect hammer using those suggestions.

But what if you don't have their equipment ? What changes?

The answer is - everything. And nothing. But maybe something. And neither they nor you will know for sure.

So what does a beginner do? We buy a,b,c,d, f, and x, usually of substandard quality to make up for the quantity necessary, get substandard results because we focused too much on HOW those machinists did something, rather than WHY - and get frustrated.

Or we get terrified of breaking the machine, our tooling, or ourselves and simply don't ever start.

Especially with the cost of bar and round stock right now. Buying a bar of machinable brass and stainless steel to make that hammer will set you back almost $50, because beginners don't have robust piles of metal stock just lying around to make those things from.

This is the same reason we don't use search much. We're looking for the exact set of circumstances that benefit us without understanding the over and underlaps, so we get either no results or too many.

I'm looking for information about MY machine, or MY situation, and I lack the knowledge to understand that the advice given applies to all of the machines and situations, in some instances.

So if we're going to build a thread like this, it needs to focus on WHY the part needs that particular end mill or tap, not HOW so that we with the Taigs, HFs, Atlases, Proxxons, and Unimats can take that information from you with your Bridgeports and Clausings and apply it to OUR build.

[gets off of soapbox]

Thanks for the post it really helps to know what you need.

You are wise to concentrate on learning the why as this will give you the knowledge to tackle problems with whatever tools you have. I hope the various content encourages you to continue to acheive you full potential.

Good luck.

 

[STEMtheMachining]

Well said.

I don't want people to get the wrong idea, I as a beginner am hugely greatful for the community here, and I've learned a great deal of information from my time here.

I just don't have the experience to apply that information yet.

The problem is that just like any skill, the things experienced machinists take for granted are ******* magic to us. And I mean basic things, like cutting a radius on a part in the mill.

Is that easy? Is it something that is beyond a beginner's skill? I don't know. I just know that the plans I have call for one, and I have no idea how to set up, clamp, or even what cutter bit to use. So I just sit there staring at my plans and my metal, and nothing is built.

So if there was going to be a thread such as this, it would need to be:

a) fundamentals ONLY, each operation explained in detail
b) scaleable to smaller (read: hobby) machines so that they're approachable to anyone with any machine
c) a full list of materials, types of tooling, and clamping materials needed for each project so at least we beginners have a starting point to work from

 

[Parlo]

@Parlo
What you proposed in the OP is very difficult to implement as witnessed by the fact that you didn't reply with any solutions to my questions.

However, I don't think anyone is disrespecting or disregarding your commitment and experience.

I took your 'new forum' idea to be sincere and well meaning, so I tried to explore, define the idea and to point out some challenges in implementing it. I think it's pretty clear that your 'new forum' is unlikely to become a reality.

H-M has various members who are experts in many varied fields. Many of them manage to contribute within the current structure. That being said, please answer one question for me. Why would you prefer to have a 'new forum' rather than respond to questions or create your own threads within the current H-M forum(s) structure?

I'm sorry that my answers were not clear, I sincerely tried to answer all your questions. If there is anything else you need clarifying please let me know.

Why would I like a new forum?
It allows a place where a common group can post tips at random without answering specific questions. Hopefully there will be sufficiently variable content on all machining topics which will viewers will find entertaining and helpful from a trusted source. I'm sure there are lots of answers out there just waiting for the right questions.

 

[Parlo]

Still need to be careful comments on Uploaded YT vids.
I got in trouble commenting on a video on here, seems the YT "star" is a lurking member.

Are you referring to me?

 

[Jim F]

Are you referring to me?

No.

 

[STEMtheMachining]

@Parlo
What you proposed in the OP is very difficult to implement as witnessed by the fact that you didn't reply with any solutions to my questions.

However, I don't think anyone is disrespecting or disregarding your commitment and experience.

I took your 'new forum' idea to be sincere and well meaning, so I tried to explore, define the idea and to point out some challenges in implementing it. I think it's pretty clear that your 'new forum' is unlikely to become a reality.

H-M has various members who are experts in many varied fields. Many of them manage to contribute within the current structure. That being said, please answer one question for me. Why would you prefer to have a 'new forum' rather than respond to questions or create your own threads within the current H-M forum(s) structure?

For me personally - the biggest issue is that the beginners forum isn't really "beginner" enough. Right now we have threads in there about how achieve sub 10 thou accuracy with a massive 440 3 phase surface grinder, or how to set up a VFD, or how to clamp an aluminum car rim to use a boring bar in a Bridgeport.

Those really aren't beginner questions. Beginner questions are "How do I clamp X?" or "how do I do this operation?" "How do I measure accurately with a micrometer?" Things like that. Things that most hobby machinists take for granted because to them they're as natural as breathing.

But because they're in a beginner forum, beginners (like myself) get into the weeds and get lost quickly, leaving more frustrated than we arrived.

The beginners forum has become really the default Q&A section because it's not narrow in scope. Any question goes there.

So maybe the solution is to have a beginners forum that is basically limited to "machining operations 101 and the questions that students ask instructors in those kind of classes" and then create a journeyman's forum where those slightly more advanced but nonspecific questions can be placed.

I love the stickies. Those are perfect. I think some more are needed, including links to some peer-reviewed sources for beginner projects that can be done in a typical hobbyist machine shop, and maybe some tutorials of really REALLY basic operations that beginners can use to build a foundation of knowledge.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Shotgun]

Ah! Diversity is our strength, but you have to recognize it and then take it into consideration.
@Parlo, it looks like you're from GB. I could be wrong, but it has been my experience that you guys put a lot more weight on titles, people in positions of "authority" and certifications. OTOH Americans, and especially the ones that are willing to build their own stuff, couldn't care less about a slip of paper you got from a school or training program. What I see you asking for is a forum that is only contributed to by "credentialed" people. Nothing wrong with that, American culture just doesn't put much stock in it. We want to see what you've done, and reserve the right to ignore what you have to say.

That is not the only example of the stark difference in culture. In GB, and Europe in general, there are a lot of rules and regulations controlling a person's home shop, as I understand it. It was argued to me that the government has a responsibility to protect a person from himself. That won't fly here for one second. The closest you'll get to that sort of regulation is your insurance company refusing to pay if you burn your shop down. . . if you have insurance.

And, then there is the fact that the guy that has been doing this so long that he has forgotten more than I'll ever know is often as not TERRIBLE at helping a new guy. When I was building my first airplane, I showed a welding sample to the old guy at the airport. He said I was burning my metal. I still don't know what he meant. Quite different from the guy that explained how to know I had the speeds and feeds correct. The max cut is when chips are breaking, come off a golden brown, and then turn blue in the pan. That guy wasn't certified in anything.

 

[matthewsx]

One of the best tips I got when I started here was to buy a textbook

 

[matthewsx]

One of the best tips I got when I started here was to buy a textbookView attachment 432492

I know, sounds silly but I'm still working my way through this thing a few years on. I keep it next to my bed and if I have trouble sleeping it's right there.

I'm lucky though, I grew up with an engineer father who built things in our home shop. He never had a lathe or a "Bridgeport" just made due with his drill press and circular sander and went to his friend's shop when he needed something he couldn't figure out how to do on his own.

That's one of the biggest take a ways I'd like to share with new hobby machinists. There are ways to do things without buying fancy tools and accessories if you use the best tool you have, your mind....

I once heard that apprentice machinists in Germany start with a file, a square, a vise and a block of steel. Don't know if it's still true but the idea was they couldn't move on to machine tools until their block was perfectly square (to the satisfaction of the instructor).

This is what I like about hobby-machinist.com....

I've been involved in online DIY communities since before the world wide web and this forum is probably the best managed and best attended that I've ever been a part of.

I probably spend 25 hours on research for every hour spent working in my shop, still I get it wrong a significant amount of the time. That's what makes it a hobby rather than work....

Cheers,

John

 

[STEMtheMachining]

Ah! Diversity is our strength, but you have to recognize it and then take it into consideration.
@Parlo, it looks like you're from GB. I could be wrong, but it has been my experience that you guys put a lot more weight on titles, people in positions of "authority" and certifications. OTOH Americans, and especially the ones that are willing to build their own stuff, couldn't care less about a slip of paper you got from a school or training program. What I see you asking for is a forum that is only contributed to by "credentialed" people. Nothing wrong with that, American culture just doesn't put much stock in it. We want to see what you've done, and reserve the right to ignore what you have to say.

[/QUOTE]

This doesn't always work out in our favor. Nothing turns a $100 job into a $1000 job like someone who watched a 15 minute youtube video and then thought that they were an expert in something because they "did their own research" by excluding everything that DIDN'T match their preconceived notion of how it should be done.


We ignore fundamentals taught in those programs (and the basis of those degrees) for "results" , even if they're done in a manner which is dangerous, or will rely on a much more costly fix down the road. People pay their "friend" to come add in an additional breaker to their panel for their new shop breaker, and they will do it in the cheapest way possible, completely oblivious to the long term dangers because they lack the fundamental knowledge to grasp their significances. Until they wake up to their house burning down because they overloaded the panel, didn't use the right awg wire for the amperage, or calculate the load properly.

We see it in here all of the time, especially when anyone dare mention any tools or equipment from the store that rhymes with Barber Plate. The experienced machinists get all righteous on them, explaining how surface quality, tolerances, and their durability make them worthless, and then the other side retaliates by saying that all brand-name tools are just overpriced marketing scams made in the same factory, and their personal favorite youtuber made this using that exact tool and it came out fine, so the expert doesn't know what they'e talking about.

The reality is that they're both right. The guy from Clickspring can take those HF Chinesium tools and get beautiful results out of them because his fundamental knowledge and experience fills his toolbag with enough tricks that he can compensate for their lower quality. But without that knowledge and education - you'll either settle for subpar results, or you'll have to buy tools with higher tolerances.

Experience without knowledge is tunnel vision and results in a limited skillset. Knowledge without experience is academic and results in a different but equally limited skillset.

You need both.