Info and parts needed for logan 912 11" lathe

[Shiseiji]

I don’t think you are completely wrong, and i don’t really think they are trying to take advantage of me. It was just confusing to get so much vitriol from them for asking a question. I started very clearly that i intend to buy parts, but that i couldn’t afford those parts. But i received a couple of long, condescending messages Explaining lengthily about how i clearly don’t understand how business works. I don’t owe them my business, it just seemed like unduly angry response to a fairly innocent question. Can you explain why it is justified to charge 1500% markup on a part that seems to usually cost $7. Maybe there’s something im missing, maybe it really did cost them a Heck of a lot to commission a custom run of Belleville washers to exacting specs. It was surprising, and so was the severity of the response. I wrote what i wrote above in reaction to the multiple angry responses i got after asking a question on the forum, not because i am offended that Logan sells a service to customers. You don’t really have all the context here.

No, I can't justify it. And I honestly didn't read every post and am saddened if there was vitriol. I've been on forums since usenet, and sadly have learned that there people I'd rather just avoid. I'll share something I posted on that forum a while back. There is much we don't know. Always dangerous when we decide to judge others.

EDIT: And you may simply been a victim not knowing you walked into a situation primed by a very recent discussion on spindle bearings and cost. In part, very much by accident, started by me simply posting a link to a site with information on double row bearings I thought was explanatory about the 10" front bearings and perhaps some insight in why they cost what they do from Scott. A posting I very much regret though it was made in 100% innocence. No idea what kind of anthill I was kicking. But what's done is done. The topic is Logan Spindle Bearings with 51 postings in just a few days.

• We don't know if his are commercial off the shelf or special order.
• We don't know if he purchased 10,000 as the smallest lot he could get at a price point he could afford for a special order.
• We don't know what kind of bank note he carries to keep this in stock.
• We don't know if he has held onto warehouse space to store the amount of stock he had to purchase
• We don't know how many times he has had to move the stock from one site to another
• We don't know how many times he's had to deal with upgrading inventory control systems to manage the stock, or at what cost.

So we have to assume that all of that is a simple "cost of doing business" and the profit "should" come from some other item. Like the bearings for the 10" that people have screamed about for decades because he wouldn't share the specifications. "They" all being disinterested parties in what their money is worth vs. Scott's money. But that's the real point isn't it? Capitalism in a nut shell.

Much of inventory control has "gone away" in modern manufacturing in the move to just in time delivery. And that has it's own costs.
So we assume he is trying to turn a 1500% markup but we really don't know a lot, if anything about his costs to keep the inventory on hand. And, to me, the very real danger that once it's gone, or Scott says "I'm retiring and my kids don't care about this little lathe side business." it will be gone. Why should he take his time to even scan and pay a web hosing site to maintain all the information he may have? I have a Clausing 8511, it's a single handle wye axis 8520 with a factory BP M-Head. You should hear the screams over what Clausing charges for the parts they have. "But" if they don't have it they will, very kindly, send you a pdf of the original engineering drawings. But you won't get one for the stuff they are still selling.

I'm not qualified to judge what's selfish and what's enlightened self interest based on all the unknowns. Please see what Scott posted recently about bearings after it appears to me he just got fed up with the attacks on the prices he charges for those. His information is enlightening, including on the rear bearing of your 11". I suspect if you could gleam an idea of what the preload is supposed to be based on the bearings then from that what washers are needed. How much is your time worth and the risk to the machine? If there is any risk? Darned if I know. I re-looked at the parts diagram. If it is to be believed, then the washers are installed concave to concave, or both convex sides "out".

Nice job with the pictures, I'm sure they will benefit someone else in the future.

Caveat. I know I'm just another idiot with an opinion. So all of this is just opinion from a guy who saw two people close to him loose businesses for what I thought was a failure to see reality . . . For what that's worth.

Ron

 

[eweissman]

No, I can't justify it. And I honestly didn't read every post and am saddened if there was vitriol. I've been on forums since usenet, and sadly have learned that there people I'd rather just avoid. I'll share something I posted on that forum a while back. There is much we don't know. Always dangerous when we decide to judge others.

EDIT: And you may simply been a victim not knowing you walked into a situation primed by a very recent discussion on spindle bearings and cost. In part, very much by accident, started by me simply posting a link to a site with information on double row bearings I thought was explanatory about the 10" front bearings and perhaps some insight in why they cost what they do from Scott. A posting I very much regret though it was made in 100% innocence. No idea what kind of anthill I was kicking. But what's done is done. The topic is Logan Spindle Bearings with 51 postings in just a few days.

• We don't know if his are commercial off the shelf or special order.
• We don't know if he purchased 10,000 as the smallest lot he could get at a price point he could afford for a special order.
• We don't know what kind of bank note he carries to keep this in stock.
• We don't know if he has held onto warehouse space to store the amount of stock he had to purchase
• We don't know how many times he has had to move the stock from one site to another
• We don't know how many times he's had to deal with upgrading inventory control systems to manage the stock, or at what cost.

So we have to assume that all of that is a simple "cost of doing business" and the profit "should" come from some other item. Like the bearings for the 10" that people have screamed about for decades because he wouldn't share the specifications. "They" all being disinterested parties in what their money is worth vs. Scott's money. But that's the real point isn't it? Capitalism in a nut shell.

Much of inventory control has "gone away" in modern manufacturing in the move to just in time delivery. And that has it's own costs.
So we assume he is trying to turn a 1500% markup but we really don't know a lot, if anything about his costs to keep the inventory on hand. And, to me, the very real danger that once it's gone, or Scott says "I'm retiring and my kids don't care about this little lathe side business." it will be gone. Why should he take his time to even scan and pay a web hosing site to maintain all the information he may have? I have a Clausing 8511, it's a single handle wye axis 8520 with a factory BP M-Head. You should hear the screams over what Clausing charges for the parts they have. "But" if they don't have it they will, very kindly, send you a pdf of the original engineering drawings. But you won't get one for the stuff they are still selling.

I'm not qualified to judge what's selfish and what's enlightened self interest based on all the unknowns. Please see what Scott posted recently about bearings after it appears to me he just got fed up with the attacks on the prices he charges for those. His information is enlightening, including on the rear bearing of your 11". I suspect if you could gleam an idea of what the preload is supposed to be based on the bearings then from that what washers are needed. How much is your time worth and the risk to the machine? If there is any risk? Darned if I know. I re-looked at the parts diagram. If it is to be believed, then the washers are installed concave to concave, or both convex sides "out".

Nice job with the pictures, I'm sure they will benefit someone else in the future.

Caveat. I know I'm just another idiot with an opinion. So all of this is just opinion from a guy who saw two people close to him loose businesses for what I thought was a failure to see reality . . . For what that's worth.

Ron

And I’m sure part of the struggle for a guy like mr Logan is to both stay afloat and to not appear like he is price gouging. I am actually sympathetic and i do understand how hard it is to run your own business, especially one that has to deal with a bunch of know it alls on the Internet second guessing everything. It was also annoying to be the second guy ( or 120th?) to step on the snake and Be the lucky one to get the venom. It’s fine though, i think They’re all over it now. And i did find the bellville washers in there and got it adjusted and it seems to be working a lot better. Now i just need to find a decent 3 jaw Chuck for this thing. Maybe you know more about this, but my south bend heavy ten came with a 3 jaw that is clearly original, and centers up nicely even though the register dia Of the back plate is a clearance fit to the spindle register. Is it just that the threads are cut to a better tolerance and it centers up that way? This Logan has a 2 1/4- 8tpi spindle too, i have a lesser quality Chuck that fits from a Chinese lathe i used to have that i scrapped but it does not ever center up better than about .005 or .006
It was better on the Chinese lathe. More like within 1-2 thou. I don’t suppose there’s anything i can really do about this other than buying about back plate and cutting it on the lathe. I’ve just never quite been able to sort out if it’s primarily the register dia that is supposed to locate the Chuck, as older American lathes with threaded spindle noses often seem to have back plates with large clearance..?

 

[Nogoingback]

I think the vitriol stems from the fact that folks constantly gripe about Logan's parts prices and make assertions about "greed" and
price gouging without having the facts, or a sense of perspective. I imagine Scott is getting tired of hearing it.

Scott is selling parts for machines which, in some cases are as much as 80 years old. Try buying parts for Ford or a Chevy that was
build that long ago and see what your dealer has to say about it. The quantities he's selling have to be pretty small as well, which
means that he has to buy things in small quantities to avoid carrying a bunch of inventory. When I bought my 10" Logan a few
years ago, it needed a bunch of work: Scott supplied, with the exception of some castings, EVERY part I needed to get my machine
back in working order. This made the difference between a machine that now is capable of productive work, and a pile of scrap.

As far as the bearings go, the 10" machine has an odd ball bearing with no easy off the shelf solution. Scott didn't design the thing,
so griping at him has a bit of the shoot-the-messanger kind of feel to it. The cost of the bearings, which I bought, was a small
percentage of the total cost of my lathe and I don't regret buying them. Good bearings are sort of important in lathes, I think.

As far as his prices go, some of them do seem a bit high, but since we don't know what he pays, it's tough to judge and lets face
it, he does need to make a profit while putting up with customers that sometimes seem pretty ungrateful. One of the reasons
I bought a Logan was because I knew that parts were available: owners of lots of other old brands should be so lucky. And,
if I'm honest with myself, this is a hobby, that strictly speaking isn't necessary at all and yet I've dumped a fair amount of $$$
into it, and I have a very modest shop. Many folks around here have spent far more. The cost of a few parts from Logan isn't
a big deal in the long run.

 

[Nogoingback]

This may be wrong information, but i think i read that the rear bearing on the 11” lathe is a sliding fit in the headstock casting and needs preload from the take up nut and Belleville washers. But i am not certain of that.

Looks like I was wrong about the 11" headstock by assuming it was like the 10" machine. Sorry about that. Learn something
every day...

 

[Shiseiji]

Been lots of discussions on this too. Here is my $.02 from what I've read and to me makes the most sense. The "end " of the backing plate needs to seat on the flange of the spindle. This prevents the backing plate from "hanging" the chuck on the spindle. Now how do you know if the backing plate is off by .008 or if the chuck jaws are worn, or both? 1st try checking with the mating surfaces with a dye. You might get away with simple Sharpie. If you aren't getting good contact then it's lapping time to be sure you aren't hanging on the spindle threads. See what difference if any you have. If you are getting good contact, then I'd be inclined to distrust the chuck.

A quick overview, please do your own research! The general consensus appears to be to use a ring/"spider" around the jaws and tighten outward to grind them. Cover the ways etc. with aluminum foil and rags to keep grit off the lathe. A dremeI tool can be adapted to the tool post. Can't get inward pressure without using some part of the the untrustworthy jaws to press against and of course that part won't get ground.

Ron



Ron