I'm thinking about selling complete DRO kits (with scales)...

I agree with others, in that there's too much machine-to-machine variation. Additionally, part of the appeal (for me, at least) is the inherent flexibility for weird setups allowed by having to choose my own scales. I imagine you'd be swamped just working with people to come up with a kit for their machine... Let alone offering support.

You likely wouldn't have time left to work on the app itself, which is the real draw of this system. Time better spent getting all the features functional, and for support and improvements once you've got a complete product.
 
Well, I the people have spoken :)
Thank you everybody for great feedback and insights. There is an old proverb along the lines of "you seeks advice when you know the right answer but you don't like it". In this case most responses confirmed by apprehension about selling scales.

So, to be more clear, my main motivation was to offer a better end-to-end experience option. I.e. right now you can build a TouchDRO unit from scratch, flash the firmware from the downloads section and be up and running for $30 or so. You can spend $120 and get a partially assembled kit that comes with better input stage and better firmware, or you can buy a $300 that comes with a ton more features, performance, etc.

I tried talking to some suppliers but those conversations didn't go anywhere.
* DROPros for some strange reason doesn't want to sell individual scales (even though they charge about as much for three scales as for the kit with a display). They expressed no interest in offering a kit with a TouchDRO unit.
* Ditron/Sino/Aikron gladly accept my referrals, but when I asked if they could offer a package deal with scales only, they all went silent.
* Haven't tried talking to Precision Matthews to see if they'd consider bundling their MagExact scales with TouchDRO, but I suspect they would not be interested.
* Already got burned by SIEG/LittleMachineShop - they are selling a knock off version of TouchDRO form 2014 with 10-year old app burned into a POS Chinese tablet.

I have some homework to do now. I guess I'll start with revamping the list of recommended scales/suppliers. At this point I've tested at least one of almost every scale you can get on the market these days (missing two Newall models and a buchSony/Magnescale, since they have more models than I can even count), and waiting for RLS to ship my order...

Random tangent - I need to have some sort of garage sale. I counted 57 scales in my "test scales" drawers, including 7 different AcuRite units, 2 Newalls, 2 Mitutoys, 2 Heidenhains, 2 Sony/Magnescales, 4 Electronica/EMS, 2 M-DROs, one and a ton of Chinese stuff... One of those days y'all will be able to get a really good deal on some "barely used" DRO scales :)

Thank you
Yuriy
 
ycroosh said:
Haven't tried talking to Precision Matthews to see if they'd consider bundling their MagExact scales with TouchDRO
Click to expand...
Naturally, nobody should take business advice from me :big grin: but would the worst consequences of trying just be a "No"?

Obviously if the benefits to you of PM giving a "Yes" answer were outweighed by the costs to you in time and/or money (a "Yes" could come with conditions that were too onerous) then that "Yes" wouldn't be one you'd want, but would it not be worth trying to have the conversation?

I'm in the UK so I don't have "a horse in this race" but just some thoughts that are worth as much as you probably think they are. ;):big grin:
 
ycroosh said:
Well, I the people have spoken :)
Thank you everybody for great feedback and insights. There is an old proverb along the lines of "you seeks advice when you know the right answer but you don't like it". In this case most responses confirmed by apprehension about selling scales.

So, to be more clear, my main motivation was to offer a better end-to-end experience option. I.e. right now you can build a TouchDRO unit from scratch, flash the firmware from the downloads section and be up and running for $30 or so. You can spend $120 and get a partially assembled kit that comes with better input stage and better firmware, or you can buy a $300 that comes with a ton more features, performance, etc.

I tried talking to some suppliers but those conversations didn't go anywhere.
* DROPros for some strange reason doesn't want to sell individual scales (even though they charge about as much for three scales as for the kit with a display). They expressed no interest in offering a kit with a TouchDRO unit.
* Ditron/Sino/Aikron gladly accept my referrals, but when I asked if they could offer a package deal with scales only, they all went silent.
* Haven't tried talking to Precision Matthews to see if they'd consider bundling their MagExact scales with TouchDRO, but I suspect they would not be interested.
* Already got burned by SIEG/LittleMachineShop - they are selling a knock off version of TouchDRO form 2014 with 10-year old app burned into a POS Chinese tablet.

I have some homework to do now. I guess I'll start with revamping the list of recommended scales/suppliers. At this point I've tested at least one of almost every scale you can get on the market these days (missing two Newall models and a buchSony/Magnescale, since they have more models than I can even count), and waiting for RLS to ship my order...
Click to expand...
At least your investigations yielded some good insight into how some of the manufacturers might respond to end user issues using a different DRO "head."

ycroosh said:
Random tangent - I need to have some sort of garage sale. I counted 57 scales in my "test scales" drawers, including 7 different AcuRite units, 2 Newalls, 2 Mitutoys, 2 Heidenhains, 2 Sony/Magnescales, 4 Electronica/EMS, 2 M-DROs, one and a ton of Chinese stuff... One of those days y'all will be able to get a really good deal on some "barely used" DRO scales :)

Thank you
Yuriy
Click to expand...

Garage Sale!!!!
 
I think support would be really difficult, and might eat all of your time. Installing the scales isn't easy, and I fear that you'd get wrapped up in that.

I see a few alternatives:
  • Amazon Store, where people select options from a list you made, so you get referral $$.
  • A deal where you get upfront money from a customer, then buy the scales and test everything before sending it to the customer. It would add a lot of cost, as the shipping could be substantial. But they'd get a tablet, TouchDRO and the scales they wanted - all assembled and tested.
 
Hi Yuriy,
***missed seeing page three before I wrote this but I’ll send it on for the sentiment.

Too bad dropros aren’t interested. I‘ve bought all my scales (glass and Electronica) from them and found them great to deal with. I told them they were for use with TouchDRO and they seemed curious. They never tried to sell me (or even mention) their own readout products.

*********

What you already accomplish as a one man shop already borders on superhuman. I can’t imagine the toll of adding sales (web) management/purchasing/inventory management/pre-sales support/order management/ shipping/returns/after-sales/etc on you, your family and (selfishly) us TouchDRO users who would like to see you put your efforts into the evolution of your real value-added stuff (e.g. the app, hardware and firmware).

Just my thoughts born of my awe for what you do accomplish and my own occasionally painful tendency to bite off way more than I can chew.

Cheers, Louis
 
Last edited:
Backporch said:
Hi Yuriy,
***missed seeing page three before I wrote this but I’ll send it on for the sentiment.

Too bad dropros aren’t interested. I‘ve bought all my scales (glass and Electronica) from them and found them great to deal with. I told them they were for use with TouchDRO and they seemed curious. They never tried to sell me (or even mention) their own readout products.

*********

What you already accomplish as a one man shop already borders on superhuman. I can’t imagine the toll of adding sales (web) management/purchasing/inventory management/pre-sales support/order management/ shipping/returns/after-sales/etc on you, your family and (selfishly) us TouchDRO users who would like to see you put your efforts into the evolution of your real value-added stuff (e.g. the app, hardware and firmware).

Just my thoughts born of my awe for what you do accomplish and my own occasionally painful tendency to bite off way more than I can chew.

Cheers, Louis
Click to expand...
Louis,
So far the overwhelming response has been "that a really dumb idea; don't do it" :) Frankly, I needed the reality check, and really appreciate everyones input.
I spent some time this weekend redoing the list of recommended scales (there is a now a new sticky at the top of the forum). Hopefully that will be heplful.

The thing that I need to solve somehow is that 90% (or more) of the time I spend on customer support is due to people getting bad scales. Just this week I had:
* Sino scales that were showing random errors. Turned out that the encoder was scratched and there were metal chips inside (the customer bought them new from AliExpress)
* Scale from AliExpress that was causing a dead short when plugged in. Turned out that "Shield" was shorted to 3 pins, including 5V
* iGaging scale that is jumping all over the place - the cause is a new revision that can't handle the timing that was standard up to about 2 years ago
* iGaging scales where 2 work on all inputs and one doesn't work on any inputs - still trying to convince the customer that it's a scale problem, since two out of the three are OK
* "I have an old mill and TouchDRO doesn't want to work with the scales; I'm sure they are compatible"
* "I have PM mill. It came with some scales from Precision Matthews, what do you think is the pinout?"
* "I am trying to use Shahe scale with an adapter I got 2 years and it's not reading at all; the old scale works fine but is too short"

The other 2 email threads are:
* I just flashed a pre-made board with the firmware I found on your site (which was for a different unit) and now nothing works"
* "My adapter stopped working but when I unplugged the probe and let it sit, it's now working again".

It's only Tuesday...

I've been putting a lot ot effort into tuning things that i can control to reduce the support load. Scales (and touch probes) I can't control. I get that people are looking for a deal, but what happens is that sellers on AliExpress cut every corner they can find to reduce the price. The QA is non-existent and after-sales support is even worse.
I'm not comfortable telling people "sorry, you got crappy scales, it's your problem", so at end I spend most of the time as "tech support" for Chinese scales, instead of working on new functionality, user manual, videos, etc.

Anyway, rant over, but if y'all have ideas how to fix this, I'm all ears. I have a ton of cool stuff on my to-do list...

Regards
Yuriy
 
ycroosh said:
'm not comfortable telling people "sorry, you got crappy scales, it's your problem", so at end I spend most of the time as "tech support" for Chinese scales, instead of working on new functionality, user manual, videos, etc.
Click to expand...
Time to put a disclaimer on your site about the use of cheap Chinese scales. List approved vendors. And a line about "you're on your own" if you choose to buy (crap.) It won't idiot proof you, but may let you off the hook for problems not your making.
 
Larry$ said:
Time to put a disclaimer on your site about the use of cheap Chinese scales. List approved vendors. And a line about "you're on your own" if you choose to buy (crap.) It won't idiot proof you, but may let you off the hook for problems not your making.
Click to expand...
Well, part of the problem is that people don't read, and then it's really hard to tell people "you're on your own".
First of all, I can't be sure that this is not my problem, so still need to go through proper troubleshooting, etc.
Second, based on my experience, people don't care about these nuances and get upset.
Those are also louder than happy customers. I was told at one point that it takes 10 happy customers to counter one unhappy customer.

Real story from last week:
A customer (first name Nick) bought a scale from eBay that had a dead short somewhere.
After a few emails we established that the scale was a problem, so he started a return on eBay and right away got a full refund (kept the scale).
Emailed me asking how he can now fix the scale, since he got if for free.
I told him (very politely) that I can't spend time on this, and since he got a refund and we have established the the TouchDRO unit is fully functional, since his other 2 scales work perfectly well with it. Suggested that he should purchase a scale from one of the recommended vendors.
Got a long email complaining how he is disappointed in my service, and how he was expecting more help.
Two hours later I get an email from another customer (Adam) , who placed an order a day earlier asking me to cancel it.
When I asked for a reason, it turned out that Nick and him are friends. Nick told him that I blew him off rudely, didn't care to stand behind my product, and that Adam should buy a complete DRO from the eBay seller, since they were much more professional and actually care about their customers.

So this one customer cost me at least 2 hours of extra time, and because I didn't spend more time, cost me another order (and $27 in transaction fees to cancel the payment, etc.). And this was on a "reasonable" end of things. I also had a customer a few weeks ago who bought a TDA-420 adapter, tried to plug iGaging scales into it, and blew up 6 different scales from 5V supply. Then started a chargeback for his credit card payment, left 1-star review for the app (which Google removed due to policy violation), and now is calling me daily from various numbers to get a refund for his damaged scales...

Anyway, it's cost of doing business (probably), but my life was so much easier before I added the "Contact Us" form :)

Regards
Yuriy
 
I feel your pain.

When I had my shop I calculated that about one tenth of one percent of customers could never be pleased no matter what I did. I still tried to make sure anyone who walked out of my business was happy with whatever goods or services they paid for. However, when you start costing me money because of something you did that's where "service" came to an end.

I won't go into any specifics here but I had customers hurt themselves being stupid, folks who brought me junk and insisted it should be fixed for $20, a guy trying to rip me off by pretending something was stolen from his boat, etc.

Anyone who purchases your product that participates in this forum can see just how much work you put into supporting it and all your customers. If they're not on here maybe they don't see it but I'm sure you work just as hard for them. I agree that you should have a solid written policy that spells out what you support and what you don't. You owe it to your paying customers to limit time spent on dealing with problems you didn't create and can't resolve.

Then, don't loose any sleep over that 1/10th of 1%....

John
 
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