How to power my new 10EE?

[purplepicker]

Hi all,
New member here. I'm Cecil, live in East Tennessee. I just recieved as a gift a Monarch 10EE S.N. 38019 built in 1953. It is now in my shop and ready to be cleaned up, drained, refilled, lubed and powered up.
Background:
The Monarch is a base model.. which means that it did not come with thread cutting or taper attachment. It has the original 3 jaw chuck, a bison 4 jaw, what appears to be a 2J collet nose (no drawbar or closer), and a phase II Aloris wedge type size C block with 4 tool holders. Although there is no leadscrew and no gearing to support threading there is a feed rod and the apron and crossfeed auto feeds work fine. I have operated the machine and there seem to be no issues as to operability.....Yet.
Now that it is mine I do not intend to operate it until I have thoroughly cleaned and lubricated it.
I have purchased the manual for the machine and now know all the lube points, reservoirs and oil types. I would guess that the lubricants have not been changed in at least 15 years if not longer. Fortunately it has been used lightly for those last 15 years.
I was pleasantly surprised to find that although it was made in 1953 it is pure reliance Motor-Generator drive....NO TUBES!!!!.
It has a 4.6 hp 3450 rpm 3phase motor wired 240 driving a 2.5 KW 230 volt DC 3450 rpm generator with belt driven 115 volt DC piggy-back exciter
The generator drives a 3 hp variable speed 230 volt DC main drive motor.
There is a 1/4 hp 240 V 3 phase coolant pump circulating from coolant nozzle to chip tray to sump and back to nozzle. I will not power this motor up any time soon because the sump is LOADED with a huge wad of rust bonded swarf. The pump might not be usable.
The Main Drive Motor speed is controlled by two linked rheostats. One controlls the generator field current which results in controlling the generator output voltage which is supplied to the main drive motor. The second rheostat controls the motor field current. By linking the two rheostats the main drive motor is supplied with high field current for low speed operation and lower field current for higher speed operation.
Now the questions:
Since I have no 3 phase power I will obviously need to either buy a static converter or a VFD or go directly to 240 volt DC motor control and eliminate the Motor Generator entirely.
It would seem that I would need at least 7 or 8 HP in a static converter due to 33% loss and hard start. Or I could probably get by with a 4 or 5 hp VFD since it could spin the 3 phase motor up slowly and avoid the hard start.
The other option of maybe 4 hp DC motor controller is a little more hazy due to the way the reliance drive controls both Armature voltage and field voltage for maximum torque at speed.
Any ideas or recommendations from those who have been there and done it... or just have an opinion.
Thanks,
Cecil

 

[DMS]

Wow, that's a heck of a gift

I have a VFD on my milling machine, and am very happy with it, though getting it tuned took me a little effort. It's a Hitachi WJ200. VFDs are nice because you have a lot of control over startup, braking, etc. Another option is a rotary converter (RPC). I don't have much experience with either, but I know there are others here that do, and I'm sure they'll chime in.

If it were me, I would avoid modifying the existing electronics if possible; these machines were really well designed. In other words, don't mess with perfection

 

[purplepicker]

Thanks for the reply DMS. The machine was in a business which is closing soon due to the death of one of the owners. My wife is a good friend of the widow who is still temporarily running the shop. My wife has been helping with the administrative stuff and running errands and I have helped out a little running errands and doing some light machining. I mentioned that the monarch was so much faster than my old 16 inch Cisco on repetitive operations because I don't have any kind of brake on the Cisco (overhead drive with huge cone pulleys and 1 1/2 hp single phase motor. I spent almost as much time waiting for the lathe to slow down as I did machining. I bragged on the Monarch so much that she decided that since my wife and I would not accept anything for our help I would have to take the Monarch. It was a nightmare making room in my shop (gave away a Hammond surface grinder to make room) and picking up and installing the Monarch. I used up 2 long days and a lifetime of brownie points with 3 friends getting the moves done.

I would really like to not touch the DC Drive motor and backgear. That leaves static converter, rotary converter, VFD, and DC motor control after bypassing the MG set. Of course most of the Bells and whistles of the VFD would be wasted since I would pretty much set it up for a soft start at 60 Hz and leave it there till I turned off the lathe. Keeping in mind of course that I would have to bypass all the Start/Stop, overloads, and any other portion of the 10ee MG motor that could unload it from the VFD. The basic simplicity of the static converter and the VFD make them the front runners at this time. I'm still looking at prices. I probably have a couple of weeks of cleanup before I would power it back up because I don't want to do any more damage than might have already been done by not providing proper PM.
Cecil

Cecil

 

[Nightshift]

Cecil, that's a nice gift indeed. I have a '52 EE and have a DC motor controller powering the 3hp Reliance DC motor directly. I put all my controls in a custom built panel mounted just over and behind the headstock on a slight angle towards me. It's really nice having everything handy. My original motor-generator-excitor is not being used, but I saved everything in the event I ever wanted to return it to original setup. My DC controller sits down under the lathe pan where the M-G unit used to be. My DC controller is custom built and provides me with both low armature and high field controls. Finding a good used DC controller that is designed for both might be a bit of a challenge, but you definately want both speed ranges. I'm attaching a pic of my control panel so you can get an idea of my setup. You are gonna love the 10EE ... it is a dream to run.

I am very familiar with VFDs as well, since I have at least 6 of them running other 3-phase equipment in my shop ... Bridgeport mill, Southbend lathe, Boyer-Schultz surface grinder, Baldor tool & cutter grinder and a couple vertical belt grinders. VFDs are my first choice as I much prefer to maintain the original 3-phase motor rather than swap it out for a single phase version. I find 3-phase power is much smoother with more torque and the VFD gives you speed control, e-stop, reverse, etc. However for DC motors like the 10EE (and my drill press), a properly sized DC controller does the same thing and in the case of the 10EE, allows you to eliminate a lot of hydro-sucking motors and generators just to make DC power for the DC motor. Fyi for what it's worth. Cheers, Bill

 

[purplepicker]

Bill,
Thanks for the input. Your machine is beautiful. Mine could use a paint job but I putting that way down in the critical path. I am very interested in your DC controller. I am pretty handy at electronics, BS degree and 50 years or so of building my own stuff. I thought about using a fractional hp scr control for the field since I have a couple laying around and building a control for the armature or trying to modify an existing 180 volt controller to get closer to the 230 volts needed for the beast. I think the 180 volt spec on most controllers is not the top end because most of the DC controllers I have (Minarik's) will overspeed a motor above its spec speed. I am just not sure how much above spec I can make one go. Obviously the 220 to 240 single phase at full wave rectification will provide more than the 230 needed for the motor.
I ordered the manual for this machine from Monarch and find that most of the info is pretty general except for the wiring diagrams which are spot on.

I have converted a Millrite and a couple of lathes to CNC and due to the lack of threading and taper on my 10ee I will eventually add a servo on the the crosslide (easy) and also one on the saddle (ballscrew where the leadscrew would have been, not easy but doable). An all electronic Motor control makes CNC even more attractive.

I would really like to drain, flush and refill all the oil reservoirs as suggested by the manual but don't see any obvious drains. Maybe I'm supposed to siphon the old stuff out?

Any chance of more detail on your controller and a clue as to how to empty the oil tanks?
Thanks again for the input.
Cecil

 

[Nightshift]

Cecil, sorry I can't give you much info on my DC controller since I didn't build it. I'm the 3rd owner and the previous owner of my 10EE had an electrical engineer build it for him 30 years ago when he first acquired the lathe from the original owner. He had no 3 phase power (same as me) and this was his solution to make it go. Luckily he saved all the original parts and passed them along to me when I bought it from him. All the wiring was oil-soaked and not in conduit, so the first thing I did was to re-wire everything between his hi voltage and lo voltage modules and the small control panel the engineer had originally built for him. He wasn't using the main contactor on the back or the start/stop buttons on the lower front housing, so when I rewired it, I put these back in service with new Allen Bradley contactor and switches. I then started to design a much larger panel to add control switches and lamps. The 2nd owner told me the DC controller was designed for full power to the motor at 220v which was as close as he could get to 230v. It operates very well with a smooth speed range both thru low armature and hi field.

When I first got my 10EE, I tore it completely apart to inspect everything. I'm one of very few people who can show you pictures of what the bottom of a 10EE base casting looks like This base casting weighs in around 1,500 lbs! Turns out, other than the rewiring, all it needed was a few oil seals to stop oil leaking from the front gearbox shafts. There are a few places where there are drains for the oil reservoirs. Remove the left end covers to start and here's a list of them:

1. the back gear attached to the DC motor. Fill on the top, drain on the bottom and a sight glass for the proper level (didn't add a pic)
2. the lower gear case is filled thru a large 1" dia bronze cup with screw top, has 2 drains (1/4" pipe x 4" long with caps) below this fill cup, and a sight glass to the right of the Feed/Thread lever. I put 90 degree street elbows on mine to help control the drain flow, but yours will just have caps on the ends of the pipes
3. rear headstock bearing cavity is filled thru the little port left of the tach and has a sight glass directly below it. To drain, you have to remove the sight glass
4. front headstock bearing cavity ... same as the rear
5. main headstock reservoir is filled thru the hole on the very top (remove the chrome plug), has a sight glass below the right edge of the tach, and is drained thru the 1/4" x 4" pipe a few inches under the spindle lock
6. carriage is filled thru the right angle git cup on the top front of the apron, has a sight glass below and left of it, and drained thru the plug hole on the lower left edge of the apron (I added a 90 degree elbow to mine)

I've marked up a few pics to help point these out. Sorry for the crappy quality. Hope this helps. Cheers, Bill

 

[purplepicker]

Bill,
Thanks so much for the lube drain info. I guess if I had spent a little more time under the covers I should have found them. I tried to get the site glass loose but after removing the 3 screws I could not get the glass and ring to come out. I tried sticking a rod into one of the screw holes (not all the way to the threads) and prying and I tried to get a xacto blade under the edge but no luck. I think either the gasket has varnished itself to both surfaces or the ring has been "painted in" or both. I think I'll make a slight hook on the end of the rod and see if I can get a purchase on the under side of the ring through the hole. I've got all the rest of the tanks drained and refilled. I'm using Mobile Velocite light or medium as called for in the manual except for the apron and tailstock where I'm using vactra. These may not be the best choices but they are what I have until I can line up a bucket of what you are using.

I picked up a 7.5 hp 240 3ph Reliance motor today for $40 and ordered a preassembled RPC panel for $160 including shipping. I could have built the RPC cheaper from scatch but I decided that I wanted to go ahead and get it running. After all the total sunk cost so far is $200 for the RPC panel and idler and 4 lunches for my friends who helped me move it. I might have owed them a lunch anyway.

Everything I have read in the forums and on the various RPC vendors sites says that a 7.5 RPC should handle the 4.6 hp MG set starting under no load just fine. I can't really imagine ever loading this beast down to its full potential. I've got an ancient 1 inch Cisco with overhead drive cone pulleys powered by a single phase GE tri-clad 1.5 hp motor and I can count on my two hands the number of times I have stalled it in the last 30 years.

Two issues: The backgear pulley end oil seal leaks. The oil drips down onto the inside of the pulley and gets slung all throughout the compartment. In your rebuild did you have to replace this seal and if so was it a stock bearing supplier item or did you have to get it from Monarch.
Someone has tightened the apron feed handwheel clutch so tight that I can't get it loose. I'll have to put a strap wrench or something similar on it but I don't want to force anything til I'm sure which way to turn to loosen. I would assume counterclockwise to loosen but would feel much better if you could confirm that.
Thanks again for the help and the pictures,
Cecil

 

[Nightshift]

Cecil, I'll try to cover your Q's off here ...

- those sight glasses are hard sometimes to get off, especially if they've been on there for the past 60 years! The key is to twist (rotate) the outer aluminum ring to break the seal. If not mistaken, I generally just find a small allen cap screw that is slightly larger than the holes in that ring, and "tap" a couple of them into 2 of the 3 holes. Then take a screw driver or pry bar and use the protruding bolts to rotate the ring just enough to break the seal. Then you can easily pop them out, and dig out the glass, screen and seals from behind it. I made up new gaskets before I replaced all mine as I hate seeing a 10EE drip like my old Harley

- your 7.5 hp RPC will be perfect to start the lathe. I've always been gonna built one, and actually have the motor, box, contactors, etc to build one, but I've just never done it. All I would need to buy are the capacitors. I guess its because I have too much of my equipment already up and running great on dedicated VFDs. And there isn't really another piece of equipment I actually need to buy for my shop, so my head keeps saying why bother building an RPC at this point.

- my backgear really doesn't leak, at least not much. There is some seepage over the past 60 years, but certainly not enough to fling oil around, so all I did was change the oil in the gearbox. But in terms of bearings, your local supplier will definately be able to provide replacement bearings. Just get the old one out so you can measure it, or see the numbers on it, and any bearing house will be able to hand you a replacement. This is also true for any other bearing or oil (lip) seals that you might need. My bearing supplier didn't have the right size lip seals I needed, but had them for me within 2 days from their supplier.

- I'm not clear on your issue with the apron feed. You say handwheel clutch so I'm assuming from that you are not talking about the lever operated autofeed clutch. I guess it can't be that as your not under power yet. On the front of the apron handwheel there is a knurled knob to pushes in/out to engage/disengage the handwheel. When I had the carriage off, I can't recall what the clutch looks like for that handwheel. I'll take a look in the manual and see if that refreshes the memory.

Cheers, Bill

 

[purplepicker]

Bill,
Thanks for the tip on the sight glass. I tried prying but not twisting. I even ran a #10 tap into the ring just far enough to catch and tried pulling but to no avail. I'll try the twist.
The reason I need the sight glasses out is that some of them are so dirty that its hard to see the level. Which brings us to the back gear oil seal. The sight glass is really clouded over and when I was putting in the oil I couldn't see the level. There's no way to get a dip stick from the fill hole to the sump so I was just guessing how much it would hold. I guessed wrong!! I realized my error when the oil started dripping out around the shaft. Upon looking at the parts diagram I see that there is no seal, just a slinger. I had put in way too much oil. After I let the oil overflow into a bucket overnight I pulled the drain plug and dumped the remaining oil into a container. I put about two thirds of that back into the fill hole and with a flashlight on the sight glass I determined that that was about right. I am guessing that the previous users probably overfilled the back gear as well except they proceeded to run it with the drip.
The apron feed wheel I'm talking about is the big seven or eight inch wheel used to move the apron manually. It has the knurled knob in the center and I can see the clutch teeth which would disengage if I could make the wheel pull away from the apron. Problem is that the knurled knob does no move... left or right or in or out. It has some scuffing on the knurling as if someone applied a pair of channel locks or something similar. I didn't know whether it disengaged the wheel by turning or pushing or pulling because it doesn't seem to respond to any of those. If it is supposed to pull out I will look more closely into that.
The belts on this machine are 1/2 inch wide A or 4L size. The main drive belts are gates 6886 which is a 4L 86 inch outside circumference and the exciter belt is a gates 2290 which is a 4L 29 inch.
the exciter belt is shot and looks like it came on the machine. The spindle drive belts are usable but I want to replace them. I am a little surprised that the Main drive belts are 4L or 1/2 inch. I would have thought that they would have been bigger. Do you recall if the main drive belts on yours are 1/2 inch wide?

Thanks again, you have been a huge help. I hope someday I can be as helpful to someone else.

 

[Nightshift]

Hi Ross. I think it would be worth your time to remove all the sight glasses and give them a good cleaning. Not only so you can actually (easily) see the levels in all the reservoirs, but more importantly, you will know those cavities have been fully drained, cleaned and properly filled ... and that's most likely the 1st time that's happened to your 10EE in the past 60 years! I could see the oil levels in all my sight glasses, but I still went thru this exercize as I wanted to know everything was done right.

Ok, on to your next questions.

- on the apron handwheel clutch, to engage/disengage the clutch, that knurled knob on the outer end of the shaft is a simple push/pull. The shaft under the knob is probably caked with 60 years of gunk which has solidified and preventing the knob from sliding on the shaft. On the outside end of the knob is the retaining bolt (it has 2 small holes in it). Just take c-clip pliers to stick in those holes and unscrew the bolt. Then you can pull the knurled knob off and clean everything up.

- yes the spindle belts are 1/2".

Cheers, Bill