How difficult is 316 stainless to machine?

CyChtiZen

I find your post interesting and informative.

I have treated 316 stainless tubes like copper at work, in peening it to improve adhesion (or mechanical interlocking) by a silicone-rubber glue that was applied to the outside of the tubes. I used a ball-peen hammer. I showed a French coworker how to peen the tubes.

At the end, your post suggests that hot, work-hardened metal of the 316SS swarf is porous to diallyl disulfide, and that the dially disulfide enters into it and reacts with the iron to produce iron sulfide -- embrittling the metal. Is this what you meant, and do you know that it happens?

Karl A
 
At the end, your post suggests that hot, work-hardened metal of the 316SS swarf is porous to diallyl disulfide, and that the dially disulfide enters into it and reacts with the iron to produce iron sulfide -- embrittling the metal. Is this what you meant, and do you know that it happens?

Karl A
Hi Karl !
Effectively, if you have an access to a X-ray fluorescence spectrometer or any mass spectrometry analysis, you will find in the swarf a local alloying with low-boiling point elements, like sulfur; if you are using this technique.

It is not linked to any porosity; it's a phenomenon which is not occurring at the macroscopic nor microscopic scale : the austenite crystal, with 14 atoms per item is crystallyzed following a Face-centered cubic variety; this crystal is able to incorporate by atomic diffusion some amounts of light elements (sulfur, phosphorus, maybe lead tetraethyl could maybe a way to corrupt the swarf, but with the extratoxicity of this compound I will not test it). This microalloying occurs by the insertion/translocation mechanism.

On a comparable approach, it is much more easy to machining commercially pure titanium or titanium-based alloys with garlic juice.

Because the titanium swarf formation is leading to gain of hardness via a cold drawing deformation. But the heat generated by the mechanical energy leads the constituents of air (dinitrogen and dioxygen mostly) to react badly with titanium, leading to titanium compounds which are ...ceramics. As hard as titanium nitride can be. Indeed, TiN coating are specifically used to enhance the hardness of cutting, sharp edges of tungsten carbide powder metallurgy (sintered after hot isostatic pressing) inserts.

That's why titanium becomes harder by an additition of oxygen.
ASTM A182 or B348 grade-1 contains low contents of oxygen, it is the softer delivery of commercially available titanium.
ASTM A182 or B348 grade-4 is commercially pure titanium with much more addition leading to higher tensile strength and reduced ductility/elongation values.
Grade-5 alloy is containing 90% of titanium with 6% of aluminium and 4% vanadium; but the reactivity of the titanium base with air constituents is also very high, especially above 450°C : the dioxygen of air diffuse on several µm below the surface... thus leading to higher Vickers hardness values.

The same mechanism occurs with iron related to carbon, but usually we are not welding with carbon black blowtorches or rich flames, as AC/DC can do in their concerts ^^

Remember that old blacksmiths were making quenching of yellow-bright steels, which are FULLY in austenitic phase at this luminous temperature, with ...buckets of urine.
Allowing austenite to dissolve quantities of carbon and nitrogen from urea.

It's the base of the carbonitruration process.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonitruration (not available in English but in 10 other languages, sorry)


So, by machining titanium alloys with garlic juice, you will obtain a microalloying effect leading to swarfs which are much more easy to brittle; as it can also ease stainless steel or other metals with high elongation ratio; specifically Fcc-crystalization metals are from those with high A% values.

Beware of the smell ^^ Especially with buckets of **** ^^
Best regards from France !
 
Last edited:
Hello from France !

I can provide to you some tip-n-tricks.

Most of the common stainless steel alloys are today "austenitic" grades. As per AISI nomination rules, it's the famous 3-hundred class.
304L is called in nuts & bolts "A2".
316L is usually called in bolts & nuts "A4".

Some improvements of these austenitic family have been made since decades. 303, 321, 318, 309...
BUT

The suffix "-L" stands for "extra-Low Carbon content".
The suffix "-H" stands for "Hard", meaning much more carbon content.
See here :

Austenitic steels are similar to copper.
Austenite is a crystal able to dissolve/contains LOTS of carbon, because the periodic item contains up to 14 atoms into the cubic item; which reapeats billions of times.

The common and rusty steels are ferritic steels. They contains only 9 atoms per item; as the famous "Atomium" monument near Brussels, Belgium shows. With 9 atoms, the basic items can't contains lots of carbon. that's why most of cemeted "carbon" steels are showing under microscope some aggregates of nearly-pure iron, called ferrite. And plumets of carbide tri-iron, Fe3C, called martensite.

The results are a mix of ferrite, and perlite (ferrite which contains "plummets" or "feathers of martensite.


With the stainless steels of the 3-hundred class, consider that you are machining copper.
Why it is important to think like this ?

Because copper is a soft, ductile material. If you pick an hammer, it is VERY EASY to dent copper, even with a soft hammering.
Stainless is also a soft and ductile metal, but it's content of carbon is not really creating an harder alloy : the carbon is able to disperse; so it's not +0,5% of content that will change its properties.

The issue is ...in your kitchen. If you are picking a spoon, they are usually made of austenitic steel.
If you bend the spoon, you will sense heat formation at the bending site.

If you bend on the other direction, the manual effort becomes much more difficult.
The heat is also generated.
If you bend more, or changing the direction of effort, the stainless steel spoon becomes very hard to bend, if you are pursuing your efforts, the spoon will break in two parts.

This phenomenon is called "work hardening".
That's why a "cold drawn steel" is much, much more stiff than "hot-rolled steel".

The more you are deforming the stainless steel, the more you are dividing the small grains of the matter, creating lots of crystal dislocations.


When you are machining stainless steel, the curved swarf is then MUCH MORE harder than the base material. And the heat is transferred into the sharpe edge, very high temperatures will lead to loss of sharp edges of the cutting tool.

The cold drawing hardening can only be cancelled by powerful heating. In this case, we are dealing with the scarf. The hotter it will be, the softer it will behaves. Red-hot ones are softy.

So, one of the trick is to use ...garlic's juice, from the cloves. It contains diallyl disulfide and its related compound.

The garlic contains plenty of sulfur-based compounds. When pouring this liquid, its cools the carbide insert or the HSS edge. But in the stainless steel dislocations network, the sulfur can be added INTO the swarf.

...leading to embrittlement of the swarf. The rest of base material is not under dislocation or cold drawing, so there is no alteration by sulfur.



Best regards.
And désolé for the powerful-n-infamous smell that will escape from your workshops. It will pursue you days and nights.

Garlic is a very rich sulfur-containing plant, avoid to send to your skin the juice, its contents will burn you badly.

It can leads to permanent conditions (allergies, and diallyl disulfide/garlicin can be deadly when handled in large quantities !
I have been watching a Dr on Youtube that thinks combining Lemon and Garlic in your daily water is beneficial to you. He insists you chop the garlic give it 5 minutes and then add it to your drink... That's full garlic juice.. Who's right, you or the Dr.
Or both..

Good info about the Stainless though.
 
Hi !
Here is the statement about garlic secondary effect that can be a huge concern for some people :
Using it on a daily basis can lead to adverse effects, mostly skin conditions/ulcerations and most of all : a "wearing" of you ability to discern flavors. The more you will use it, the more you will be exposed to a powerful allergic reaction, even being an adult.

The olfactive bulb is a small, specific, sensitive amount of nerves and specific cells. So be careful, use this tip-n-trick wisely.

Always consider to reduce the mixing of garlic juice with the soluble oil melange, by capturing the garlic juice after machining, via some absorbent towels, absorbent papers, or zeolite-based cat's litter.
 
Last edited:
CyChtiZen,

I don't have access to any mass spectrometers. The best that I would be able to do to measure the amount of sulfur in the swarf is to burn a piece in a sealed container of oxygen, and then inject a sample of the gas into a gas chromatograph to determine the concentration of sulfur dioxide.

I don't understand why FFC containing more atoms than BCC results in greater and faster substitution by N, O, and S, but I accept that it does. I can say that a higher number of atoms means more degrees of freedom, but that is a standard or doctrinal answer. I don't think that the metal atoms themselves know whether they are in in FCC or BCC.

Here's a link to a Wikipedia article describing carbonitriding in English:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonitriding

Karl
 
Thank you so much for your reply Karl, I will update Wikipedia by modifying the french link towards this English article.

The reason why Fcc can contain much more foreign atoms than Bcc is : the side of the cubic base item is MUCH MORE bigger in Fcc than in Bcc crystallization more. Sorry for the use of Angströms units (a tenth of a nanometer), but for iron/steel crystals, the side of the cubic basic item is as follows :
Fcc : b = 3,60 angströms
Bcc : a = 2,886 angströms

Because Fcc are bigger in size, we have for each Fcc item 8 tetraedric sites, or 4 octaedric sites per item which are able to contain usually smaller atoms than the constituents of ferrite/austenite crystals.
That's why austenite can contain much much more carbon than ferrite. ...or phosphorus, sulfur.

When we consider the extreme toxicity of phosphorus compounds (esp. white phosphorus) ...let's chop finely some garlic cloves ^^

When using X-ray's crystallization diffraction technique, the scattering effect is greatly influenced by the shape of the crystallization mode.
That's how we can measure formally the ratio of a "duplex" stainless steel which contains both structures. Very interesting for saving costs : we use less nickel (4% instead of 10 to 12%) and the Pitting Resistance Equivalent Number (PREN) is much, much more higher than PREN's fully austenitic 3-hundred class alloys values.

------------------------

I think that this experiment deserve a nice experiment with state-of-the-art measurement techniques; like Raman's spectrometry.
Maybe some universities in US could be reached by some H-M administrators, as a request for experiment ?

It should be so niiiiice.
Here in France with elephant's bureaucracy which are ruling crumbling laboratories like Conseil National de la Recherche Scientifique (CNRS) or Commissariat à l’Énergie Atomique (CEA), we cant wait centuries for making a $600 experiment : providing a rented CNC mill if not available sur-le-champ, a decent vise, a bag full of garlic cloves and some stainless steel (and commercially-pure titanium) bars with ladle analysis certificate issued by a decent steelmaker. And a jar of soluble oil for making a comparizon of final composition with/without garlic's juice.

Et voilà ^^
Here in France, prior to this moment that will never arrive, feel sure to pay taxes, while waiting.

We could be more accurate between a traditionnal tip-n-trick and a very nice experiment about how fast some elements can migrate when cold working is applied ^^

The garlic's juice is usually applied chez Dassault for the national weaponry procurement program.

Best regards !
 

Attachments

  • Cubique centré vs Cubique à faces centrées - cristallographie.gif
    Cubique centré vs Cubique à faces centrées - cristallographie.gif
    8.7 KB · Views: 6
Last edited:
CyChtiZen,

I found a lab exercise for making and studying models of FCC, BCC, and HCP using ping pong balls. Perhaps I will do it.
http://www1.coe.neu.edu/~jaisaacs/lab1.html

I know of x-ray diffraction analysis for determining spacing in crystals. I have not done any.

I don't think that garlic juice will produce a measureable improvement over soluble oil, in the chip produced when turning/cutting stainless steel. Getting sulfur into austenite is a diffusion process; diffusion processes are slow. The juice will cool the chip very quickly, and the amount of sulfur in garlic juice is relatively small.

Some fireworks produce golden sparks using compositions of potassium nitrate, charcoal, sulfur, and carbon steel filings. When they burn, the compositions expel droplets of molten, glowing potassium sulfides (K2Sx) into the air The droplets contain the carbon steel filings. The potassium sulfides protect the filings from the flame and the air. As the droplets fly through the air, the potassium sulfides slowly burn away. When the filings become exposed to air, they ignite and burn -- producing their effect a second or two after the droplets were expelled into the air.

My example shows that diffusion is relatively slow even at high temperatures.

Karl
 
Last edited:
Back
Top