Help me set up a home shop for gunsmithing.

[ranch23]

Wonder how long a guy could gunsmith off of $100,000???????????????????

 

[November X-ray]

Wonder how long a guy could gunsmith off of $100,000???????????????????

Not very long around here, $200,000 would not last long either, but think of the fun one could have in the meantime!

 

[twowheelinjim]

I started buying machinery out of desperation when a local machine shop charged me $50 bucks to turn down a barrel shank about .032" . I had found an old Marlin .22 bolt action rifle that had a nasty barrel. It looked as if the thing had hung out of an old barn through a knot hole for several decades. The action and stock was decent and required very little clean up. I had a spare barrel taken off of a Ruger 10/22 and decided to use it on the Marlin. After getting the barrel home it didn't even fit. So after fuming for a while I went down to Harbor freight and purchased a milling/drilling/ lathe machine. Getting the machine home was a pain. It took three neighbors to get it out of the truck and into the shop. I made a sturdy wooden stand for it and I got started. I ran that machine for about five years making everything from mower brackets to tractor bushings, and everything else that could fit the limited travel of this machine. I outfitted it with a four jaw chuck, a small rotary table and an assortment of cutters and bits. Eventually the work I wanted to do was getting limited by the machine's capacity. A neighbor sold me his South bend Heavy 10 and that solved most of my lathe issues. The SB came with a compliment of tooling and accessories including several chucks and a collet system plus a six position turret. He purchased the lathe in the mid sixties and solely used it for cutting acrylic knobs; he made thousands of them on the lathe. This was about the time I got into serious gunsmithing. With a larger bore thru the spindle I was able to fit larger caliber barrels for turning. I was now able to re chamber and crown barrels for myself and a few friends. I also learned how to thread etc. Once again I had a need to mill and the HF mill drill machine was holding progress back. Within 50 miles from home a machine shop was closing down the man's son ran an ad on Craigslist selling various items. I had a hunch they had other things common to machine shops so I called and asked if they might have a milling machine they would be willing to part with and to my surprise they did. I drove down to inspect the mill for a few minutes and spent nearly four hours looking at what a lifetime machining business looked like. The owner was an old Navy man like me and kindly gave me a great deal on the machine including everything I would need to get started. I sold my HF machine on CL to get enough funding for the new to me mill. The new owner was very happy to get a machine that was in good order and well complimented with tooling and accessories. I hear a lot of bad things about the HF machines but if one uses them according to their capacity they are not terrible. I enjoy gunsmithing work and would pursue it but for now I just work on my own projects and occasionally work on friends guns, believe me when the word gets around they will flock to you. I have learned patience and being careful as I would feel terrible if I ruined a customer's prized rifle. I have made weaver rails, grips, adapters, pins, and other accessories for various types of rifles as of lately. Another machine to consider would be a surface grinder. I have probably spent over $8000 on machines and tooling spread over 5 years getting the shop set up to put a figure on it. If gunsmithing is what you want to pursue, do it. Eventually it will pay off the initial investment although don't count on it happening in a year. I make more money making and rebuilding old obsolete tractor parts for a few folks in my area than anything else. I encourage you to attend a few classes at the local community college to learn machining as a start.

 

[twowheelinjim]

I know you think that as a lot of money. Not seeing the part or knowing what had to be done the price seems reasonable. First what would have happened if they turned the barrel down .040? Maybe .050? Now in your shop you have to think of that too. Suppose someone wanted sights put on their rifle and you drilled into the bore? The other is accuracy. did you give them a tolerance .032 +/- .001 or something like that. If you said remove .032 with no tolerance the implied tolerance for that would be +/1 .0004. Technically .032 would mean you didn't want it .033 or .034. But you can use the Universal law of rounding if the preceding number is odd 5 is rounded down but if even 5 is rounded up.


Mr. Froneck, $50 bucks was a lot of money. Since you began ranting about numbers, I guess I'll have to stray away from the original topic and explain.
I went to a nearby shop where they do machining and fabrication type work such as building stair cases and hand rails for commercial applications. As I got close to the front door the few guys hanging around the smoking area asked me what I wanted. I showed one of them my barrel and receiver. I explained the receiver opening measures 21/32 ''or, .65625 and the barrel measures 11/16 or .6875. the barrel shank is about 3/4'' long. I asked for a .002 interference fit so I could press the two parts together. He took my money and instructed me to meet him around the back of the building. As I got around the back, a garage door was open and I could see him tossing my barrel into a grungy old lathe and without even measuring began to cut. He called me over and asked to see the receiver. Without any calculations or measuring tools he made a second cut and said I should be able to file it until it fit and proceeded to check messages on his cell phone. Yes, that was worth $50 bucks; as in lesson learned. It was that jack ass that motivated me to buy my own machines. I should go back and thank him except that shop went out of business.


How concentric did you want it? I see guys saying 3 Jaw chucks will hold .001 TIR or less. I don't know where they are getting those chucks but I never had one! I had over 100 chucks in my shop mostly top brands made in USA. None had that accuracy! Never seen a 3 jaw chuck give collet accuracy! Maybe new out of the box but never over years of service. So then you need to put it in a 4 Jaw Chuck. I know a few top smiths that don't own a 3 Jaw chuck! So now you have the time required to indicate your barrel in the chuck.



I know you are trying to be helpful but you are coming across as a jerk. The guy just wants to know how to get his shop prepared to do gunsmithing work and is requsting information, please try to be helpful. I'm trying to explain how I got started as an example.


When you get the lathe and other stuff you'll soon find that the machines were the cheapest part only a large one time expense but your tooling will far exceed the machine cost. Again this goes in your price.


There you go- That's a great observation. It's things like this that helps folk's figure out what to expect if getting into machining.


When you get into machines and using them for business you will find there is a big difference between Hobby machines and the commercial. I don't have any "Hobby" machines. Everything I have it the top of the line machines.



That statement is a bit pompous and you should retract it. Don't forget you are logged on the hobby machining forum. If everyone had an unlimited budget then top-of-the-line machines such as yours could be procured by everyone and you wouldn't be special anymore. Seriously, you should read what you are typing back to yourself before posting. I appreciate the fact that you are trying to be helpful but do it in a positive sense. Maybe I'm wrong on your approach and if I am, I apologize. See, I have a German friend that is a wonderful machinist. Whenever he is observing someone machining he sometimes blurts out comments like: That looks like szhit, I cut better. The actual translation is: Your feeds and speeds are a bit off for the diameter part you are turning, please allow me to suggest a better solution. He really is a kind, friendly person and is more than willing to help anyone out but as a child he apprenticed in Germany where child labor laws are different. Exposing young boys to grouchy old men make young grouchy old men....



You SB is probably at the bottom of the list of US made commercial machines. Don't get me wrong it's a good machine and some were made for industry. But it will not hold a candle to a Hendey, Monarch, Sidney, Leblond, Pratt & Whitney etc.



You are probably right... but I get offended when fools hate on my lathe...
Once again, seriously? I'll tell you what the best lathe is in the entire world....the one you have access to when you need to turn something. I have ran an assortment of lathes both CNC and manual. My little tiny Heavy 10 can hold it's own and is more than capable of accuracy.

 

[12bolts]

Not to inflame the situation, but this is one of the best comments I have seen on this forum.

.....I'll tell you what the best lathe is in the entire world....the one you have access to when you need to turn something.

Something that a lot of potential machine users could take to heed. If it will do the job asked of it then its a winner.

Cheers Phil

 

[Nelson]

Frank,

THIS board is about respecting everyone else's machines. It is also about respecting their opinion, whether you agree or not.

PLEASE remember those two principles BEFORE you post. If people are stating that they will not post anymore for fear of being browbeaten and/or that you are coming across as hateful or heavy handed, that is a problem for us.

I realize that you are trying to be helpful and appreciate that but
PLEASE respect others, and their opinions!


Nelson
on vacation in Mystic, Connecticut

 

[Bill Gruby]

I sincerely hope the bad vibes are out of the way now. In the first post here r14 said two profound words that should have set the form of this thread. Apparently they were missed, he said, "I'm new". Being new all posts should have been able to be understood by anyone. To me that means nuts and bolts posts, not undermining any other posts so that one is more important than the other.

This Forum thrives on the idea that it is a level playing field for all. Myself I can hold my own with the best but that to me is unimportant. What is important is the fact that I can work with all levels at their pace. I don't care if the same question is asked over and over. I will keep answering till it is understood. We all need to learn to do that. On a forum such as this one, people skills are extremely important. We are no longer in the dark ages.

With that said let's bring this topic back on track and help r14 build his shop. Let's not let it go astray again, it is not fair to r14. Nuff said for now.

"Billy G" :nono:

 

[twowheelinjim]

r 14, are there nearby gunsmiths working in your area? If there are, perhaps you could inquire about some apprenticeship training. Going directly to the source and witnessing the daily operation will give you a feel as to what you need. From what I remember visiting my local gunsmith, he had a very simple knee mill and an old lathe. The bulk of his work involved hand tools such as rasps, files, various screw drivers, punches, jigs, etc. He specialized in pistols and that involved serious hand fitting of various components. The actual machining portion of gunsmithing can be small. There's a difference between manufacturing guns and gunsmithing. One other thing I noticed in his shop was wood working equipment. He built stocks and inletted them.
What drew me to the hobby of gunsmithing was the combination of working with wood and metal. Add some precision and you have something interesting. Here in the south there is an overabundance of firearms to be had for little money. I prefer buying old guns especially if they are broken or missing parts. I began by practicing on my own projects. After completion I usually sell or trade them for more projects. After a while I started getting requests for simple parts such as firing pins or trigger guards. I really think gunsmithing requires passion and tenacity with a bit of compulsion. if this is the path you are contemplating, it's not a bad one.

 

[jumps4]

i'm not trying to be sarcastic but you guys are posting to someone who has not posted in hobby machinist since the 8th of august
?
steve

 

[Bill Gruby]

"r14" is not the only member that could be reading this thread. The info posted here is for everyone. He may also be watching and start posting again.

With that in mind, keeping it going is a good thing in my humble opinion.

"Billy G"