Gun Making - 1860 style

[LJP]

Kevin,
I understand and agree with your statements completely!
What I am lamenting is the loss of skills by individuals from the general population. A museum should not be the only place that "the skills of yesteryear are preserved"
CNC machining does not replace the ingenuity of a highly skilled artisan, whether that artisan is a cabinetmaker, machinist or carpenter.
There was a time when ALL craftsman learned the basics. Today they load machines, with no clue as to how to make the part they are "making".
And the shame is, they don't care.
Larry

 

[RGR]

I think the point of the ones concentrating on the old fashione skills, rather than CNC work is that not very many CNC guys could produce even the guns these natives did, as many would not know where to start.

The skills and techniques are forgotten. How many of us could produce a master square for example without modern machinery? Or even just a shop use square ?

How many boy scouts can start a fire without a match? Not many, is the answer to both questions.
and I guess if we can't see the importance of asking the question, than I guess we can't see it.

It is not that the CNC machines are not needed, but we take the work someone else did for granted. If the wheels ever fall off of society, thee is gonna be a huge sorting out of neck tie wearing folks, and those with old fashioned ingenuity, that can produce a master square without a machine.

Was reading a story about a famed violinist, who, used a Stradivarius. The gushing blue haired lady says, "Señor, your violin sounded so beautiful tonight". He smiled, held the violin up to his ear, "I don't hear a thing"......

So again, "it's never what we Have, it's what we do with what we have"?)

 

[Walt]

I thoroughly enjoyed reading this wonderful story. I enjoy reading about the history of technology. You don't have to worry about civilization falling apart to appreciate the amazing skill and determination that built a machine tool industry from pretty much the same starting point as the example in this story.

Not so sure I would lay the blame for today's basic tech illiteracy at the feet of the schools. The teachers I know work hard to meet the goals handed to them. No Student Left Behind meant that districts with collective poor test scores could face funding cuts. I remind you that this was a program that wasn't foisted on the USA by some intellectual elite, it enjoyed a broad spectrum of support across America.

I agree that the schools are short changing kids whose interests lie outside of the usual college prep education track. However, there is precious little enthusiasm among the public for funding programs in schools that don't go toward boosting test scores.

On a personal note, my college educated son who can't find work in his field has discovered that he needs to know some basic automobile maintenance to keep his 1995 Saturn running, because he can't afford to pay a mechanic to take care of everything that's going wrong. He's become good at finding instructional videos on YouTube, and Dad's shop is suddenly a more interesting place than it used to be.

Walt

 

[lrsglory]

There is so much truth here. I would like to share a true story. Many years ago I was employed by several industrial distributors as their Cutting tool specialist. Did this fora about 10-12 years. I attended 3 factory schools on carbide and cutting tools with different distributors. I was hired to be the goto man for carbide and cutting tools. The salesman set it up and I went in to get the business. Setup machine tests, solved machining problems. etc. We received an invitation to visit an engineering group at Battelle Institute, Columbus, Ohio. Once there, the problem was presented. They were hired by a major American Gun maker. I know now it was Colt. This was the problem That Battelle was contracted to solve. Colt was loosing its gunmakers at a fast pace. Mostly thru retirement and death. There were no new skilled craftsman coming up at Colt. The machines, tooling, fixtures etc. were worn out, I saw pictures of just some of the drill fixtures used. They looked like they had been put together in a Blacksmith shop. Just shot. It took really skilled craftsman to obtain the quality and accuracy that colt was famous for. They knew that it took years for individual to attain the high level of skill to make top quality guns on outdated machines and tooling. They simply were not going to be there. They were investigating converting their entire manufacturing facility to CNC machines. With a few weeks training and a compliment of programmers. a novice could be producing high quality parts for Colt at an astounding rate. I'm not sure where this ended up at or what manufacturer was able to get the business if any. Truly sad, No one was smart enough to see the problem coming. I was fortunate enough to take my training under a master Toolmaker. I regret that I was only able to work under him for 2 years. What a loss. He was lead over 25 tool & due makers at North american in Columbus. I was never given the opportunity to transition to CNC. Many years back when CNC hit american manufacturing, all I heard was I was being replaced by a kid with a cnc vertical maching center. Wouldn't need a jig and fixture builder anymore. Funny thing happened. $200,000 machine, 24 x 60 table to produce one part. They soon realized the tool changes were killing them. Back to the jig and fixture builder. Build me a fixture that will hold 25 parts on the table. That way every tool that comes down drills, taps, mills, etc 25 parts before it retracts and brings the next tool in. 24 tool changes per every tool saved. Now they were making money. Oh well. I am not at all against CNC. We all benefit from them but the trade has suffered imensely. Just look at the ads. They are desparate for CNC machinist. Not taught in the schools. American manufacturing still won't spend the money to train the replacements that are so sorely needed. If you don't learn from history, you are destined to repeat it. Put a lot of these people on a BP and tell them to lay out a 8 hole pattern without dro's and they can't do it. The trade apprenticeships have to be brought back. Its the only way. Thanks for tolerating my unload. I feel better. and believe me I mean no disrespect for any CNC machinist out there. We all have our part to play. and we are all needed.

 

[RGR]

Another Basic question, how many guys do you all know can sharpen a pocket knife free hand?

Thats again correct, not very many, young or old. But since the schools and TSA have made pocket knives illegal, I guess it won't matter? No joke, I believe the Brits have made common knife carry a crime.

Another example of where Americans are dropping the ball, and not sure what to do about it. One step son, Colombian born but raised here from age 15, well they were two years ahead of our stud
ents in math skills. Colombia now we are discussing, ahead of our kids in math skills. Must be all the unions and high paid teachers Colombia has????

Anyway raised him as my own, his father had a small furniture factory in Cali, a good guy, so the kid was around tools of some sort all of his life. So he wants to be an architect. Blessed with the Mind to do it, he now has a masters, and taking all the tests to be licensed.

At his graduation though, of all the students going down, one could count about 20 brown kids for every gringo. Brown kids from envy country on earth. Very few from downtown Iowa, or NB, or OH.

The above is NOT a rascists statement from this old MO redneck, it is simply a fact.

Went to dinner that night with him and his buddies. One Syrian, Colombian, Honduran,Mexican, an Algerian even, and me and the one white kid from Dallas, kind of stood out like the nickle in the goats butt.

They laughed about being the UN version of architects.

I am betting though the street dance and advanced finger painting, and other liberal arts classes, had a lot of white kids, looking for an easy degree which as others have noted, they can compete with a Bunch of other kids that have wasted 4 years or more.

Its a huge problem guys. I don't have many answers , not even sure the right questions are being asked, but we need to admit a problem exists.

I suppose all the trout will not make it upstream anyway? nd the cream generally rises to the top?)

 

[railfancwb]

Remember, the functions of USA K-12 schools are 1) be sure the unionized teachers are well paid and have many opportunities for promotion out of the classroom, and 2) provide conforming cogs for commerce and industry and cannon fodder for the military.


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[ScrapMetal]

Remember, the functions of USA K-12 schools are 1) be sure the unionized teachers are well paid and have many opportunities for promotion out of the classroom, and 2) provide conforming cogs for commerce and industry and cannon fodder for the military.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Your second point may have been true in the past but I think their focus has changed more towards training them to abhor the military (and country) and to keep them useless and ignorant so they are dependent on the government for everything.

JMHO

-Ron (One kid in college and two in High School)

 

[MontanaAardvark]

Good topic - near and dear to my heart.

My real job (I'm on vacation today) is as an engineer. Electrical. I won't bore you with details, but it's kind of esoteric stuff. But I've always been a do it yourself guy. I've done woodworking, I'm sitting in front of an oak wall unit I built around 30 years ago; I've made fishing rods, and lures; I've cut gem stones and made jewelry from them, both hand-wrought (sheet silver, metal saw, files, acetylene torch kind) as well as lost wax cast; when I was a teenager, I built electronic kits, as an adult I designed my own radios and made them; I've made my own guitar - I forget all the things I've made. I always wanted to do machine work, and my wife got me started in '03 with a Sherline lathe. That has grown to a more capable shop.

I think building and working with tangible things like hard metal, offsets the inability to see the things I'm controlling in my radios.

There's an "illness" among us high tech workers that goes "the computer can do anything". Years ago, I knew a woman who was a graphic illustrator. An artist. She said she wanted to learn AutoCad so she could be a mechanical designer. There's a lot more than learning a software package to being a mechanical designer! Guys who have never touched a milling machine think they can get a CNC machine, press a button, and it will make metal things for them. I guess that it can, to some extent, but there's a lot of room for the artistry of the guy on the machine. CNC makes it easier on production - it makes it easier to make a bunch of things just like each other. For the one-off or one of a kind, it doesn't make as much sense.

As a society, too many people have bought into that idea that if they go to school, they automatically get a good-paying job and they look down on people who get their hands dirty. As Mike Rowe says, there was a poster in his high school class that showed a picture of a guy in a cap and gown with a school behind him opposite a guy in some sort of workman's clothes in a shop of some kind with the caption "Work Smart - Not Hard". Get that degree and all you have to do is show up. You don't have to get sweaty working. That encouraged American students to be lazy. That's why schools stopped doing shop classes; too many people don't want to do things anymore. To further RGR's point, American kids get their bachelor's degree in engineering and go start working. I'm as guilty as anyone. Once you get into the Master's programs, the percentage of foreign students goes up over 50%. Doctoral students are almost all foreign - at least, in my field.

How many times have you heard there's no manufacturing in America? We make everything in this country except cheap consumer goods. I've been working in electronics manufacturing since 1976, and throughout that time people have been saying we don't do any electronics manufacturing in this country, or it's all moving to China. The company I work for exports to China. Automation like CNC means fewer people are needed to do the work.

I'm getting too rambling, but it's a good subject. I'm interested in rifling barrels and those things, just to say I've done it, or that I can do it. I'm interested in figuring out all of these things. It's not just that they're good skills to have if times go bad; they're always good things to know.


Bob