Getting started: Shop questions

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ArmyDoc

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Hi, I've been wanting to build a shop for several years now. I'm finally almost in a place where I can do it. I don't have a lot of experience - I worked with a CNC Mill and a manual lathe when I was an undergrad engineering student, and that's about it. I am approaching this as a hobby. I have made my living as a surgeon, first in the army, now at the VA. But I am starting to slow down, and thinking about retiring in the next 10 years. I want to explore the interests I never had time for when I was a younger man.

I think the hardest part about getting started in this is that you don't know what you don't know. I've tried to I've done a lot of reading, and I think I'm at the point where I can start asking questions and making some more concrete plans. To that end, I'm going to start three threads - the first on the shop itself, the second on the lathe and the third on the mill. Since you can't really have a shop without a location, I'll start with the shop itself. The first question people ask when people ask for advice is "What do you want to do?" So I'll try to answer that first, and then ask the quesion's I've thought of.

I have a small farm. I want to build a shop, and I've identified 4 things that I'd like to be able to do in it. First, I want to dedicate part of it for processing our animals for food. This will be non-commercial, strictly for our own food. But my wife says "Your building a shop? Great, you can move your [*stuff] out of my kitchen." So that is a must. I don't need a lot of space for this. A 4x6 cold room, a sink and a 5x5 area to do the actual processing. So, round figures, something like an 8x10 area. The actual kill and initial cleaning will be done outside, so only the hanging and cutting of the meat inside. (I know, not machinist related, but need to know what I plan for when designing the over-all shop size.)

Next, I want an area for machining. I expect I will need an lathe, and a mill. I'm not sure what size of each yet. It's been hard for me to define what I want to do, because I don't plan to do this for money. I have wide ranging interests, and I want to be able to explor them. For example, I want to work on smaller items, such as machinist's puzzles and executive "toys" in brass and aluminum. I have an idea for a 3d maze, that would be brass and acrylic, about 3 inches in size. I would like to be able to mach chess pieces, not more than 2 inches in diameter. Model steam engines are a possibility. On the larger end, I want to be able to make / repair things for the farm equipment. On project I am working on (just design phase right now) is building a mini-baler to run with my bob-cat for baling pine straw. Also, I find a lot of the projects I'd like to try are actually tools. I watched a great video on building a belt sander that seems do-able, for example. I also am an avid shooter, mostly with pistol. I would like to be able to do some repair work / frame refinements and possibly engraving work. So, that should give you an idea of the types of projects I am interested in.

Third, I want an area for welding. My son is a welder (works mostly in MIG, but some TIG) He has his home unit, that he said we could keep in the shop and I could use when he wasn't. (This would obviously benefit him also, in giving him a place he could do things at home... and yes I am shamelessly attempting to make it to his benefit to spend more time with his old man.) My interest in welding is only for farm machine repair, and the small baler project I mentioned.

Finally, at some point down the line, I would like to have a small forge. This would allow me to do tempering, and who knows, maybe I would get into some blade-smithing at some point.

I am currently planning on a 24x 36 ft shop. I'm planning on doing a pole-barn construction, Insulated, concrete floor with AC ( I live in georgia, AC is pretty much required in the summers, as well as to keep the humidity down in the shop so your tools don't rust.)

The first question I have, is regarding power for the shop. I've read a lot of posts talking about 3-phase power for mills and lathes. Would it be worthwhile to run native 3-phase to the shop? Since I'm starting from scratch, I imagine I could put in anything I want... Or is it better to run single phase, but then use a VFD, so you get variable speed from that?

Any other suggestions or tips are greatly appreciated. If you were to build a shop from scratch, what things would you want to ensure that you did, or did not do?

Thanks again,
 
I did build my shop from scratch a few years ago. Space was the biggest problem as land is more at a premium in the UK, but the size that you've suggested would have suited me fine. I've had to make do with 8 x 15 ft. There's always that other machine that you didn't know you wanted when you started out.

Some of your suggested projects (farm eqpt repairs) sound like you'll need a reasonably sized machine. The "toys" could be made on hobby-sized equipment. I started metalworking with a 7x12 lathe, added a compatible sized mill and outgrew them within a couple of years. They were good to learn on though. I traded up to several old machines (I enjoy reconditioning / rebuilding old machines), which brings me to another of your queries, as all of mine are now 3 phase. I don't have and couldn't reasonably afford 3 phase to my shop, so I use VFDs on all of them, but I have 35 years experience in the electronics industry so wiring them up and configuring them is not a problem for me. You could use a rotary phase converter to generate 3 phase or get proper 3 phase installed which would save you re-wiring the equipment.

The one thing I did in my shop which I'm grateful I did was to have two parallel I-beams intalled end to end which I've used to make a hoist. Not having floor space for an engine crane to shift heavy things is not a problem. With the floor space you've stated, I don't think that'll be an issue for you.

I hope these ramblings have been of some use. Good luck with the build. Its a great and useful hobby and there's a wealth of experience here ready to offer friendly advice.

Rob
 
First of all welcome to the forum and thank you for your service!

It sounds like you have a very good idea of what you need in a shop but I think you're not giving yourself enough room to do all these different things. IMHO the minimum size for what you're proposing would be 40' x 60', that's what I had built for my business a few years back and you'll be amazed how quickly that can fill up. The initial cost for putting up the building isn't much more than a smaller shop and you'll be glad you went larger in a very short time.

You will definitely want to divide the space and have multiple entrances for your different uses, keeping welding and grinding activities away from machining space is a great thing to do if you can not to mention food processing areas which should definitely be isolated from these activities.The good thing about pole barns, or any clear span building is you can configure it however you like and you don't have to decide everything right away. One of the things lots of folks do is leave part of their pole barn with a gravel floor for storing equipment and such, another consideration is going as high as possible so an office, apartment or storage area can be built above. On my building I specified one long wall to be build stronger for a possible lean-to at a later date.

Power:
Yes. If you can have three phase run from the road definitely do it. Just depends on your local power company but installing it shouldn't be much more than single phase and you'll be able to run most of the tools available for our hobby without converting.

While it seems attractive to buy smaller machines now as you start researching you'll find that often larger industrial machines are available for the same or even less than the prices hobby size machines go for. This is because the market for big older manual machines is pretty limited due to most shops running CNC. Small machines command a premium since most of us don't have the ability to build a big shop with three phase power at our homes. You can do small work with large tools but doing larger work with a small machine is a lot more difficult and farms often have "large" jobs that need to be done. Don't discount the fact that even if you don't plan on doing work for money once your shop is set up your neighbors may need things done for their operations.

Welcome and keep asking questions, this is the right place as no matter what the folks on here try to help everyone regardless of their needs or ability.

Cheers,

John
 
Welcome to the site. As john said above, you will never regret going larger than you think you will need, and it is always cheaper to go up than out. 15-16' ceilings will give you room for loft space/second story, which will give you plenty of storage, so you can keep your shop space clear of clutter. Insulation is always money well spent, as it will save you money on your AC in the long term. I went R-38 in the ceiling and am going to add another 6" for a total of R-57. 3 phase power would be great if available for reasonable cost. Here it would be prohibitively expensive, but you can always go the VFD, or RPC route for your 3 phase needs. I built my shop with large (9x 12') doors on opposite ends, so I could drive through, which has worked out well. Mike
 
When I started my journey some 4 years ago, I had a Taig micro-lathe that I had used to clean up commutators for RC racing motors and a few other things, I knew I was going to be building several rather large telescopes, so I started to watch youtube videos on machining. If you lookup:: oxtool, Abomb69, DoubleBoost, This Old Tony, ClickSpring, Nik C Colyer, and MachineShop101; you will have thousands of hours of entertaining videos on machining.
 
I know they brought 330 volt to the pole outside the house, because when they were discussing our build they asked about needing 220 vs 330, and I said I didn't know, but at some point wanted to build a shop. The two guys looked at each other and said in unison "330". Is that the same as 3 phase? The tranformer is less than 50 ft from the future shop site.

Originally, I was going to build the shop as an addition to the barn, but that would put it about 350-400 ft from the house. My wife said I should put it closer because I then I wouldn't have to walk very far when it rains. Since I was planning it as an addition to the barn, the design was pretty much determined by the barn dimensions. - that's where 24 x36 came from. I took my initial guestimate of what I would need (24x24 - garage sized) and increased it by 50%. Wow, 40x60? That seems huge! Also need to think about roof height. Previously that was defined by the barn as ~ 12 ft at the walls and ~ 16 ft at the center. Does that seem like a good height?

Good point about sectioning off incompatible activities. Keeping the food processing separate was a no-brainer; I'm not a fan of metal filings in my lamb - regardless of its value as a source of dietary iron! But I hadn't thought about grinding / welding / forging as being detrimental to the fine tools, though I suppose should have. Would you divide the shop in half then? Put those activities one one end and the Mill and lathe in another? Should I put up a wall, or is just keep separated by space?

I'm on lunch at work right now, but I'll try to post a rough draft of my plans either tonight (or tomorrow depending on the honey-do list when I get home).
 
Great! Designing and outfitting a shop is one of the fun parts!

Single-phase 120/240 power would be what I would do. Like others have said, you can create your own 3 phase power as needed. I tend to go large on the power side because it is expensive to upgrade later. I would suggest at least 100A panel. It is not that expensive. If you don't have a long cable run to your transformer the cost is pretty reasonable. I would consider 3 Phase to be a "nice to have" but if it is reasonably cheap and not too much extra on a monthly bill maybe go for it.

Other things:
Tall shop doors for ease of installing all the equipment you will be buying.
I think that bright and consistent lighting is a very important consideration too. Some shops only have code minimum lighting or worse. I find that leads to eye fatigue.
Outlets, outlets, outlets everywhere! Include some 120/240V - 5 Wire outlets here and there for larger equipment.
If you can have a loft for storage, do it!
Bathroom? Water?
You can turn small stuff on a large lathe but not vice versa.
Consider an alarm system depending on your local crime patterns.

When you get to the right point, you might want to lay out your shop equipment to scale in a CAD program of some sort, not forgetting stock storage and handling space. Eg. Space for infeed/outfeed of stock at a vertical band saw or to left/right of a horizontal band saw. Some of that can be handled by putting equipment on wheels and strategically placing near a door or coincident with the infeed/outfeed space of another equipment etc. Also, a designated assembly / repair space, should be planned in near an overhead door so you can also pull in tractor for maint. etc.
I have used Grizzly's Workshop planner. Easy to use and has lots of pre-configured equipment. There may be others.

I wish I had:
Not been on work travel to be sure
the vapor barrier was put under my concrete slab, which was in the contract but builder "forgot".
the house wrap was installed (builder assumed that since it was a shop, it wasn't needed)
Gone larger than 24x36'. My shop is stuffed with woodworking, metalworking and other equipment. Hard to find room for assembly.
Insulated from the beginning, not later on.
Sub-fed power from my house panel. Presently it is a separate meter that is charged $25 minimum per month. (A surprise policy change from the power company a few years after I built the shop). Some slow shop months, I might use $1 in power...
Planned the HVAC better. I have hotspots / coldspots and will need to redo my HVAC at some point.
 
Since your shop is quite a distance from the house, a way to control at least the exterior barn lights and HVAC from the house would be nice. I have that situation and it is nice to arrive at a nice warm shop and be able to see where I'm going after dark.
 
Hi there,

I can't say I've ever heard of a 330 volt service, usually it's 220/240 or 480 that are most common in the US, your power company will be able to tell you what's available but it sounds like the utility workers were looking after you. If your farm is also a business there might be some different programs than just for homeowners, ask them.

Yes, it seems like 40' x 60' is huge but trust me it won't once you start putting stuff inside. What I would do is 14' high 10' wide doors on both ends which sounds excessive, but if you have the space on your property it will let you drive a semi truck/trailer through from one end to the other. Sure you don't think you'll ever do that now but you might have a big RV in the future, or maybe your son will....

As for partitioning it I would plan on a machine shop to one side, if it's small maybe 15' x 20' long ways. This is where those extra strong poles that can support a lean-to come in, if you want to expand later you'll be halfway there since the shop ceiling doesn't need to be too high. Put up walls and give yourself a separate entrance so you can just cool/heat a smaller area where you will be working. The processing section could be adjacent with a bathroom between maybe? Welding, grinding, blacksmith stuff could just be in a corner of the remaining space.

Sit down with your builder and discuss what they have done for other clients, also maybe visit any neighbors who have shops/barns you admire; most folks love to show off their spaces to interested neighbors. There are a bunch of shop build threads on this site and others so check those out. See how things have worked out in the longer term for those who have built new or added on.

Cheers,

John
 
No matter how big you make your shop, in a few years it will be full. It's a law of nature :)

If you have 3 phase available it's much more economical to run it while you are building than add it later. Check with your power company to see if it is available in your area. You can look at the power lines that run by your place to get an idea.

If you have 1 insulated line on the pole only single phase is available:

Single-phase-pole.jpg

If you have 3 insulated lines 3 phase is available (well it's there, but it's up to your power company if it is available to you or not)

3phase.jpg

If your lines are underground it's time to call the power company.
 
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