Erector set part number 'ED' triple drum hoist

[BGHansen]

Hi guys,

Thanks for all of the kind comments! I've learned a lot from reading other guys posts and think I've come up with some decent ways to make stuff. Not always the best way, so appreciate any comments on techniques that could cut out a little more time. Just documenting the processes I use which maybe will help someone else out at some point. There's always more to learn in this hobby!

Honestly, this is not a completely philanthropic endevour on my part as I sell what I make. I sold the 36 'ED' hoists from my first run for $175 at shows. On eBay they went for between $160 and $225. The 'BM' clam shell buckets go for $150 at shows, made 24 in the first batch around 8 years ago. I have an order from a collector/dealer who wants 10 of them, but I'll cut him a deal . . .

I'll continue posting some of the other parts that use techniques I've learned from others or come up with on my own. The biggest enjoyment I get out of making these parts is coming up with new and better ways to make them.

There's a picture attached of a blue wooden shift knob that was included in sets with a motor from 1938 - 1958 or '59. It's 5/16" diameter, 7/8" long and has a 5/32" hole up the middle 1/2" deep. I used to make them on my Rockwell 10 x 36 lathe with a taper attachment. Ran the 5/32" drill bit in the end of the dowel, then backed it off just a touch. Left the bit there to act as a tail stock center of sorts. Then plunged in a HSS parting tool at the top of the knob near the drilled end to break the grain of the wood. Then ran the HSS parting tool along the side with the taper attachment set at a 3 deg. angle. Little bit of triangular file work to radius the knob handle at the drilled hole and the end of the knob, then finish parting off. I could make around 40 an hour with that process. I made up around 300 of them for a show and sold them all for $2 each. At the end of the show, a guy asked if I had any more of the knobs, "nope, but I can make more, how many do you want?" 500 . . . Not a typo, 500 of those wooden knobs. No doubt he was planning on selling them at a profit, but I was happy working for $80 an hour at $2 each.

However, I was not looking forward to standing at the lathe for 13 hours making shift knobs! So, I cut the knob profile into a piece of O-1 and hardened it. The cutter acts like a scraper on a wood lathe. It worked really well and got me from around 40 per hour up to around 80. I did develop a very bad habit of stopping the lathe by dragging my hand on the spindle nose protector (was using 4-C collets on the Rockwell). I later made a brake lever that mounted to the lathe bed with a pivot on the back side. The lever was simply lifted manually until the top side (it was made from hickory) dragged on the spindle protector.

Bruce

 

[4GSR]

Bruce,

You're doing a fantastic job on these reproduction Erector set parts. I've reproduced some of the simpler ones like the light sockets and bearing plate used in the 12-1/2 set out of the round plates from the Type III parts and that's about it.

I bought a reproduction 'ED' one a while back from one of the sellers on eBay. 5344, you know whom I'm talking about. It's not a perfect reproduction of a original AND not near as nice as yours. If you have any left after the show, I want to purchase one from you if you don't mind. And I might even buy one of the clam shell buckets from you too.

Keep up the great works of art!

Ken

 

[BGHansen]

Bruce,

You're doing a fantastic job on these reproduction Erector set parts. I've reproduced some of the simpler ones like the light sockets and bearing plate used in the 12-1/2 set out of the round plates from the Type III parts and that's about it.

I bought a reproduction 'ED' one a while back from one of the sellers on eBay. 5344, you know whom I'm talking about. It's not a perfect reproduction of a original AND not near as nice as yours. If you have any left after the show, I want to purchase one from you if you don't mind. And I might even buy one of the clam shell buckets from you too.

Keep up the great works of art!

Ken

Hi Ken,

I'm sure we can work something out. I'm good with the barter system, most of what I sell gets turned into more stuff for my shop.

Bruce

 

[BGHansen]

Bruce,

The only thing better than your results in making reproduction parts is your awesome level of documentation of their making.
I'd like to try making some punches and dies someday, and your posts teach me so much.

I truly appreciate you sharing this!
-brino

Hi Brino,

Not that I'm making them correctly, but I haven't had too much of a problem making punches and dies. It boils down to turning and/or boring to an accurate diameter. Naturally helps to have the tooling and good equipment to start with. I've posted a number of POTD's making punches and dies for my Roper Whitney #218 press. The punches are either 1/2" or 1" diameter, round holes are easiest as it's all lathe work. I use O-1 drill rod for the most part but have used 4140 or even 304 stainless when the material being punched is something soft. Bought a 12" length of 1.3" diameter O-1 off eBay for $25 shipped, use that for the 1 1/4" dies.

Use an oxyacetylene torch to harden. I probably don't hold them at cherry red long enough to be "by the book"; usually around 3-4 minutes. Quenching is in an old steel coffee can with motor oil, be prepared for an occasional fire (goes out on its own pretty quickly). I temper using a Thermolyne hot plate purchased off eBay for around $50. It'll heat up to 700 F, well within the range needed for steel. Again, probably don't hold them at temp long enough, usually around 5 minutes, then a quench in motor oil. I monitor the temp with a HF laser thermometer, but watch the color also. I control the temp by fiddling with the rheostat on the hot plate, an oven with a set temp would be nice.

Made my first punch/die a year ago for knocking 1.35" diameter disks from a fiber material. I used to stack up rough cut blanks on a bolt and turn them to diameter which took around 45 minutes to make 30. Now I can bang out 30 in about a minute. Of course, took me 3 hours to make the punch and die, but I learned a lot and now don't even hesitate taking on making them.

Best regards, Bruce

 

[BGHansen]

I love seeing your threads. Besides the great job you do on the parts, the detail in your production process is great to read. Thanks for sharing.

Thanks for the compliments. I got out of making repro parts around 6 years ago to get more stuff done around the house. Now that I'm caught up (for now . . .), time to get back in the shop! I did a poor job of documenting and storing my tooling and fixtures, and forgot some of the nuances of some of the parts. Doing a better job this time making up work instructions and documenting the process here!

Thanks again, Bruce

 

[BGHansen]

Hey Bruce, are you having any fun?
Fantastic work, takes me back to when I was a little kid. Just about everything I learned about mechanics I got from my Mechano and Erector sets. (long before Gilbert)

CHuck the grumpy old guy

Chuck,

Thanks! Probably not an original statement, but a bad day in the shop usually beats a good day doing anything else. It keeps my mind active trying to come up with better/quicker ways to do things. Plus it helps keep my hobby shop self-supporting. I had a rather larger Erector set collection that's slowly getting whittled down to a reasonable size. I sold a 1918/19 No. 44 Master Engineer's set for $960 and bought an AHP AlphaTIG welder. Don't miss the Erector set, really like the welder! My wife is very supportive and wants to learn how to run everything. Might get her posting on the forum some day!

Best regards, Bruce

 

[tweinke]

Keep up the good work! I always enjoy reading your project posts so keep them coming.

 

[Mr Mike]

Here’s another thread of an Erector set part reproduction. This one is Gilbert Erector set part number ‘ED’, the triple drum hoist. First the obligatory history lesson . . . Gilbert introduced this part to the Erector set line in 1927 and included it in sets (just the largest two sets, size No. 8 and No. 10) in 1927. The gearing in the hoist can be set up in different ways. For the most part, the hoist was set up with two ‘CJ’ 36-tooth gears on the upper drum and one ‘CJ’ 36-tooth gear on the middle drum. The upper crank had a ‘P12’ 12-tooth pinion gear on it which engaged either both ‘CJ’ gears on the upper and middle drums, or just one ‘CJ’ on the upper drum. This was achieved by sliding the crank back/forth in the side plate holes. The middle drum has a friction brake of sorts to keep it from free-wheeling when the crank pinion is disengaged from its 36-tooth gear.

The lower crank has a ‘P49’ 18-tooth gear on it which engages with a ‘BF’ ratchet. The ratchet edge jams into the 18-tooth gear and allows the crank to only turn in one direction. The child would have to manually release the ratchet by pulling back on a finger catch to turn the drum the opposite direction.

Gilbert illustrated a number of crane models that used the ‘BM’ clam shell bucket and ‘ED’ hoist. The clam shell bucket had a counterweight, which when raised or lowered relative to the bucket itself opened or closed the bucket. Perfect application for the ‘ED’ hoist and the upper two drums. The upper drum was strung to the counterweight and the middle drum to the clam shell itself. The child could slide the upper crank to engage just the upper drum, then turn the crank in either direction to open or close the bucket. Then slide the crank so both drums were engaged, then turn the crank to raise or lower the bucket with the bucket opening staying put. The lower drum was strung to a crane boom. Turning the crank without pulling back on the ratchet raised the boom. The child would grab the lower crank, pull back on the ratchet, and turn the crank to lower the boom.

You’d think that the ‘ED’ being in just two large sets (a very nice 1927 No. 10 set sold at auction for $17,000 in 2006) that there wouldn’t be a lot of demand for it. Well, there isn’t, but I made 36 of these ‘ED’ hoists in 2008 and sold them all (with no advertising) in 4 years. Time to make some more . . .

Like the thread on the ‘BM’ clam shell bucket, the ‘ED’ hoist has a number of parts that will be broken into individual posts. I’ll quickly go over how I made the parts for the 36 assemblies made in 2008, then how I do them now.

First big change is the steel stock used. Gilbert nickel-plated a lot of their parts from 1913 – 1953. The 2008 batch were made from plain steel and nickel-plated. I have a 2-gallon nickel plating set up from Caswell Plating, but went with a commercial plater at the time because of the sheer volume of parts I had made up. Unfortunately, the plater I used back then is now out of business. So, out of laziness, I went a different route and made all of the nickel-plated parts out of 304 stainless steel in a 2B finish. That finish looks very close to nickel plating. The jury is still out on stainless or plain carbon steel; I’m currently looking at a new commercial plater.

The first part I’ll cover are the main side plates. There are two side plates with 18 holes and 6 slots that are joined by three steel rods. My original repro batch had the side plates done by gluing a paper hole template to the steel blank which were then center punched, and the holes were punched on my Roper Whitney #218 punch press. The paper template also had the trim edge of the side plates which were cut on a shear and with aviator snips.

On to 2017 . . . For the next batch I took advantage of the addition of a DRO on my mill. I measured up an original ‘ED’ side plate and knew the (X, Y) coordinates of all of the holes and the corners of the trimmed edge of the plate. Made a punch template on the mill for the current run. Started by indicating a plate of 3/8” CRS to the mill table, then started spot drilling and drilling holes for the side plate holes. By the way, the holes were roughly 11/64” as Gilbert used 5/32” rod stock for axles. The corners of the trimmed edge were drilled with an 1/8” drill instead of the 11/64”. Plan was to transfer punch those holes, then trim the side plates to size by basically going dot to dot.

I had to make a modified 11/64” punch for my Roper Whitney punch press as the stock punch wasn’t quite long enough to get through the 3/8” steel, 0.036” side plate blank and the die. Simple lathe job here, made up 2 of them so I had a backup.

Started the side plates by gluing a template for the foot flange slotted holes. Knocked in the holes with a 0.172” x 0.281” slotted punch. Then folded the flange on my DiAcro brake.

Next, the side plate is clamped to the 3/8” steel punch template. The clamp is a piece of 3/8” bar stock and has a 10-24 cap screw with its end turned to 11/64” to act as a locating pin to hold the side plate in the correct position.

I used an 1/8” transfer punch to mark the corners of the trimmed edge of the plate. Then knocked through the 18 holes with my modified 11/64” punch. The side plates have a LH and RH side which is accomplished by flipping the blank on the 3/8” punch template.

The edges were trimmed to the corners using a 4-ton notcher. The first hit is just off the transfer punched hole so I had something to see while lining up the next cut.

Next are the steel rods that hold the side plates together. These are 3/16” rod stock with a shoulder turned to 11/64” inch. The ends are peened to the side plates to hold them together. I use a spotting drill to countersink a hole at the end of the rods. Makes it much easier to peen over than a piece of solid stock.

Bruce

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WOW this brings back memories of being a kid...
Your doing Very cool stuff here Sir.. Finally you can build all the expansion sets you ever wanted..

 

[Silverbullet]

May i ask a question? My father had an old set from way back , he was born in 1925. When I was the only son I was supposed to get his set. Well it got stolen and I bet pawned for nothing. But the question , I remember only seeing it a few times , there were cool old style wheels and rims about 3-4" dia, and the parts were much heavier then the one I got on a Christmas . The box was wood I think lid was black , had a motor a wooden battery box also?? . About 12"x36" box approximately , I'd like to find a picture of the sets or the number . I'm almost sure it could build a model a type model or truck . I know I'm babbling along it just really ****** me off my niece stole tons from my mom's house.

 

[BGHansen]

Probably a No. 7 1/2 White Truck set. Here are some photos of some of the No. 7 1/2 sets in my collection. They were sold from 1926 - 1932. Sets changed pretty much every year with additional and/or changes to parts. The most collectible set is the early 1926 one in a brown wooden box with cast-iron wheels. That version was only sold for a short time, then the wheels were changed to stamped steel. The 1927 set added a large truck body used in the dump truck model along with others. The box changed to a red-painted one in 1928. In 1929 the truck front axle changed from cast iron to sheet metal. Also, the truck springs changed from bent pieces of 1/8" thick x 3/8" wide strap steel to a more realistic stamping. In 1931 the box changed to a recessed lid with a truck model label on the inside. In 1932 the motor was changed to a 110V P56G motor from the battery-powered P58 motor.

Or, could be a 1928 No. 8 or 1929/30 No. 9 set. I've got pictures of those attached also. The 1926 & 1927 No. 7 1/2's were in a brown-stained wooden box about 22" x 9" x 5". The 1928 - 1932 No. 7 1/2 sets were in red-painted wooden boxes about 23" x 11" x 6". The 1928 No. 8 was in a red-painted box about 26" x 11" x 6". The 1929/30 No. 9 was in a red-painted wooden box about 29" x 11" x 6".

Currently prices are a little soft as compared to 10 years ago. The early 1926 set might go for $750 - $1000. The 1927 - 1932 sets anywhere from $300 - $400. The 1928 No. 8 around $600. The 1929/30 No. 9 around $1500.

Bruce


1926 7 1/2


1927 7 1/2


1928 7 1/2




1929/30 7 1/2


1932 7 1/2


1928 No. 8



1929 No. 9