Debate switching to solar power

[BGHansen]

We went with a ground mount stuck in the back corner of the fenced in "dog/chicken" yard. Ours isn't the most efficient wiring-wise as we have some long runs. The panels (circled in green) have their DC line buried along the fence line (you can still see the dirt path), through my wife's garden to the corner of the pole barn. Then routed in conduit under the eaves to the invertor which is mounted on the outside of the barn (lower LH corner). Our main panel is in the barn with buried 150A service running to the house. The inverter back feeds the main panel at the barn. I questioned the placement of the inverter (outside) as it's right adjacent to my shop's service door, why not put it inside? Our Generac inverter is meant to be outside and needs to be accessible to the power company and/or fire department can shut it down as we're back-feeding the power lines.

Our batteries are in the house with an auto-transfer switch to energize a few circuits if the grid goes down. There's a DC and AC line running from the inverter to the house. That run is still visible in the photo (below the trees and next to the car parked next to the then open trench); runs from the inverter to the corner of the garage. Then in conduit under the eaves to the back of the house. The AC line runs to the transfer switch, DC runs to the batteries. If we're running off battery power, the batteries send DC from the house to the inverter at the barn. The inverter then sends AC either to the main box in the barn, or AC back through the transfer switch line in the case of a power outage. Probably close to 1000' of wiring to get the solar from the panels to the batteries and back to the house.

Our was a turn-key system installed by Pink Energy. I see "click-bait" for similar systems with (we generate 8400W and have 18 kWh battery backup) for around $20K. Those are typically roof-mount, I can't say if the structure for our ground-mount was more expensive or not as we didn't want the panels on our roof and never priced it that way. After our federal tax credit, we paid about $30K more than we could of if I'd have done the work myself. At my ancient age of 62 at the time, NO THANKS! It wasn't a lot of difficult work, but I chose to write a check as the crew of 10 or 12 guys kept pretty busy for two days putting in our system. Other "stuff" we got was replacement LED bulbs for every light in the house, and they topped off our blown-in ceiling insulation from the settled 8" thick back up to 14".

Bruce

 

[Janderso]

California has multiple rate plans to chose from. They all have a lower base rate that quickly rises depending on how much electricity you use and in all but one plan the time of day that the electricity is used. I believe that most meters in California are now reversing and time of use meters. I can go online and see how much electricity I used during any given hour during the day. This is updated every day.

Why does California have such high rates? Remember reading about all those wild fires and the huge settlements that were paid. Those settlements didn't come out of PG&E's pockets. PG&E like all utilities is guaranteed a small profit. They were allowed to raise the electrical rates to cover those losses. PG&E's customers paid those settlements through higher utility rates.

I think the PUC could have done a better job of monitoring their maintenance practices. It was PG&E who took responsibility for starting the Camp Fire which took our home, shop and displaced over 25,000 people.
That’s all I’m going to say.

 

[Janderso]

Because of all the cloudy days and rain this year compared to last year, our solar production is half of what it was last year to date.
I’m not complaining, well maybe a little.

 

[Janderso]

We went with a ground mount stuck in the back corner of the fenced in "dog/chicken" yard. Ours isn't the most efficient wiring-wise as we have some long runs. The panels (circled in green) have their DC line buried along the fence line (you can still see the dirt path), through my wife's garden to the corner of the pole barn. Then routed in conduit under the eaves to the invertor which is mounted on the outside of the barn (lower LH corner). Our main panel is in the barn with buried 150A service running to the house. The inverter back feeds the main panel at the barn. I questioned the placement of the inverter (outside) as it's right adjacent to my shop's service door, why not put it inside? Our Generac inverter is meant to be outside and needs to be accessible to the power company and/or fire department can shut it down as we're back-feeding the power lines.

Our batteries are in the house with an auto-transfer switch to energize a few circuits if the grid goes down. There's a DC and AC line running from the inverter to the house. That run is still visible in the photo (below the trees and next to the car parked next to the then open trench); runs from the inverter to the corner of the garage. Then in conduit under the eaves to the back of the house. The AC line runs to the transfer switch, DC runs to the batteries. If we're running off battery power, the batteries send DC from the house to the inverter at the barn. The inverter then sends AC either to the main box in the barn, or AC back through the transfer switch line in the case of a power outage. Probably close to 1000' of wiring to get the solar from the panels to the batteries and back to the house.

Our was a turn-key system installed by Pink Energy. I see "click-bait" for similar systems with (we generate 8400W and have 18 kWh battery backup) for around $20K. Those are typically roof-mount, I can't say if the structure for our ground-mount was more expensive or not as we didn't want the panels on our roof and never priced it that way. After our federal tax credit, we paid about $30K more than we could of if I'd have done the work myself. At my ancient age of 62 at the time, NO THANKS! It wasn't a lot of difficult work, but I chose to write a check as the crew of 10 or 12 guys kept pretty busy for two days putting in our system. Other "stuff" we got was replacement LED bulbs for every light in the house, and they topped off our blown-in ceiling insulation from the settled 8" thick back up to 14".

Bruce

View attachment 442765

Sure is a nice piece of property Bruce.
That would run well over a million bucks in my neck of the woods. Every time we think about looking for a home on an acre or more we just need to cough up about $300,000 more money. Then you have to refurbish the kitchen, bathrooms, new hardwood floors…… I’m married

 

[Provincial]

What nobody talks about is the huge emissions that it takes to make solar panels and especially lithium ion batteries. The emissions to make the panels and batteries far exceeds the emissions saved over the life of the system. Solar electrical panels and lithium ion batteries are not recyclable. Well the aluminum frame is recyclable if you remove solar crystals. My local recycling company won't even accept whole solar panels. Costs more to separate out the aluminum than the aluminum is worth.

Also the business model where utilities are required to pay retail for the surplus energy put back into the grid is not sustainable. Electric rates in California are skyrocketing because of this. Also batteries only have an average life expectancy of 7 to 8 years. Charge them incorrectly and they will fail much sooner. If one fails they all have to be replaced. A battery bank is only as good as its worst battery. The electric vehicle market is just starting to feel the effects of the high cost of replacing the batteries. $10,000 plus and only dealers can do the replacement. Something to do with the computer systems. I have heard horror stories that it costs over $20,000 to replace the batteries in a Tesla.

Then you have the roof leak problems for roof mounted solar panels. It is not a question of "if" but "when" or how soon the roof will start to leak. My house had both solar electric and solar water heating panels on the roof. The electric panels were removed just prior to my purchase. The system was installed in 2003 by the then owner who was a solar installer. You would think that he did the best possible installation. I don't know when the roof start to leak. When I moved in in December 2021 every penetration was leaking. Everyone of them. The leaks must have been going on for awhile because when I removed the remaining solar hot water panels to reroof my house last fall every one of the lag bolts just pulled out of the roof. The wood around them was rotted.

I think that there is a place for solar energy. But it is not the cure all being touted. I lived off the grid for 9 years on my sailboat. The last 7 years solar provided all of my electricity with a battery backup. Unless it was cloudy for more than 2 or 3 days. Then I would have to shut down my freezer and not open it until the sun started to shine again. I got tired of this and stopped using the freezer. Think of the life style changes living without a freezer. That system is still working after 15 years of use. I have replaced the batteries twice.

Even with all of the problems I was going to install solar electric at my house. I had bought the panels from a solar company that had gone out of business. Was going to ground mount the panels in my backyard. My HOA would not allow ground mounted panels. Had to be on the roof. No way I was going to do that. Anybody want to buy 12 panels. $125 each. Or make me an offer.

We installed solar on our shop roof. The array is about 16x40 feet. The roof is standing seam with no external fasteners, and the solar panels mount using clamps on the standing seams. The only penetrations are three (three phase power) conduits that run down to the inverters. Those are essentially the same a plumbing vent pipe penetrations, which are very trouble-free.

Over the years, we have converted entirely to standing seam metal roofs. With 50+ inches of rain a year, they are the least likely to leak. One composition roof on a detached garage lasted for 30 years without a leak, and we replaced it with standing seam ahead of a failure. We live in a forest, but have big enough hayfields around the "compound" for fire protection. The metal roofs provide better protection against airborne cinders, which often cause structures to burn.

Until about 15 years ago, we had several shake roofs, and would have probably lost them to forest fire, had one happened.

One large machine shed has a corrugated aluminum roof that was installed in 1950! It expands and contracts a huge amount, and makes a lot of noise on a Summer day with scattered or broken clouds! The challenge with this is keeping fasteners in place and water-tight. The original fasteners were galvanized nails with a lead washer. Thermal expansion would jack them out of the wood roof purlins.

Our current deal with the power company is that they keep track of our input from April 1 to March 31 and credit our bill at the normal rate. We use little power in the Summer, and most in the Winter, when we augment our wood stove with a heat pump. If we produce more power than we use in a year, the power company gets the excess for free. We have two 15-amp 120V circuits we can use directly, so it provides a backup if the commercial power goes out and there is enough sun to energize our solar. Being out on the Boonies, and used to power outages, we have gravity water, wood heat, a 6 KVA diesel generator, and now solar power. The shop is heated by a commercial forced-air waste oil furnace, and I have developed enough source for waste oil that I had to turn up the thermostat to 60 degrees in order to burn what comes in. That is somewhat hotter than I like when working, unless painting or having glue set up. I shut off the furnace, which has a heat exchanger and and external exhaust, when painting, since I am paranoid about fire.

I'm seriously looking at putting the "outdoor" unit of a heat pump water heater inside the shop! It would help cool the shop a little during the warm part of the year, and the waste oil heater keeps it plenty warm in the cooler part of the year.

 

[BGHansen]

Sure is a nice piece of property Bruce.
That would run well over a million bucks in my neck of the woods. Every time we think about looking for a home on an acre or more we just need to cough up about $300,000 more money. Then you have to refurbish the kitchen, bathrooms, new hardwood floors…… I’m married

Hi Jeff,

Thanks and we enjoy it a lot! The other picture was just the house, wife's garden, 40' x 96' barn and the fenced acre. This is our property; 64-acres with 5/8 mile of river on the south border.



Our next "project" (which at this point in my life "project" will be in quotes a lot of the time. That's to signify I'm writing a check after others do the work) is having a 2-acre 15' deep pond put in. My wife and I have decided to stay Michiganders for the most part as we don't want to have to maintain a second home. So, we'll be spending about what a second home would cost to make our current home our year-round refuge. One of her dreams has been to walk out the front door and catch dinner. It might be a few years before we get fish in it, but this is what'll be going in give or take once we get the permits.

One "project" leads to another project (note the no quotes!). I'll put up a gazebo, shed and bury power to it once we get the 35,000 yards of dirt moved after the pond is dug. I've got a Case 580 backhoe and Ford F600 dump truck, but I won't be moving 8000 loads (4 1/2 yard truck) with my equipment. We have a nice trail on the river but it needs some filling in and grooming. That'll be one of my summer/fall projects (no quotes!) this year and next. And yes, we recognize that we are very fortunate.

Bruce

 

[Aworoeuw]

Each solar panel is usually around 18 square feet, so you’d just need to measure out how much roof space you’ve got to work with. If you don’t want them visible from the street, sticking them on the back or side should work fine as long as they get plenty of sunlight.