CZ Rami jammed

I know you can’t out guess a jury, but in a truly self defense situation, why would using a handload for defense be an issue unless the prosecutor can prove that a commercial “self defense” load would not have produced the same result? Just asking.

Tom
It isn't the prosecutor you have to worry about it is the shyster lawyer for the person shot or their estate who will make it look like you wanted to shoot someone so bad you created your own "special load" to do it with, even after you have been found not guilty in criminal case or charges were never filed. The levels of proof between criminal and civil cases are large. From "beyond a reasonable doubt" to "preponderance of evidence". Beyond a reasonable doubt is a very high bar and results in more guilty people walking than innocents being convicted by a huge margin. Preponderance of evidence is a very low bar indeed and allows jurors to subjectively determine your intent. And the shyster lawyer will use everything you have said or did in the past that he can find to make it look like you were looking to shoot someone. Even reloading your own ammo.

I am sure if I ever have to use a gun in defense of my self they will look at my past Facebook postings and forum postings and they will come across little gems like, "I don't use a handgun for home defense, I use a shotgun or a rifle because I want whoever I am having to shoot to have the greatest possibility of ceasing the actions which lead me to shoot them to stop. Shotguns and rifles are better than handguns at that. If I could I would use a howitzer for home defense, sure it is a pain to clear the house with it but if you have to shoot someone and make them stop, the howitzer is the way to go."

Add in there that buckshot and high velocity rifle ammunition is more likely to stop within a wall in a house than any handgun bullet and it adds a level of safety for those I don't intend to shoot being hit by rounds that hit walls instead. Handgun ammunition and defensive handgun ammunition specifically is often designed to be "barrier blind" and often create significant damage on the other side of walls.

As far as prosecution goes I don't think there has ever been a case that hinged on the ammo having been handloaded. Sure prosecutors will bring it up but it isn't likely to result in conviction unless other evidence also points to guilt. That whole beyond reasonable doubt thing, just because you spent hours crafting and creating "deadly ammunition" doesn't mean that the person really didn't need to be shot. They were still waving a knife, pointing a gun at you or pounding your head on the pavement.

And many states have applied immunity from civil cases to shootings which were determined to be justified. Meaning, if the prosecutor doesn't charge you or the trial ends with a not guilty finding, you can't be sued for your use of deadly force. You can however be sued for someone breaking into your home and slipping in the bath tub which lacked a bath mat. I mean, that is just so negligent of you.

To me the use of factory ammo for defense is about reliability. Factories produce very reliable ammunition. Of course there are the occasional rounds that don't go boom but they are truly the exception which is why they are so notable when they happen.

We have all seen pictures of a factory loaded case with a primer in upside down or the bullet not seated fully or too far but they are literally 1 in a million even in cheap FMJ range ammo. When you step up to defensive ammo the chances are even slimmer.

For "factory reloads" they just aren't produced to the same standards as factory new. Having .357 Sig cases in 40S&W ammo is a sure sign of that. The not so visible sign of it would be the primers they got cheap that were produced at some point in the past and lost in a corner of a warehouse for decades.

Many of the defensive loads also incorporate sealants on the bullets and primers meant to keep moisture out and that is lacking on hand loads and factory reloads.
 
I would clear this issue and be on the horse over to Reno or other free state to stock up. Just me though. By the eay what is a live Id?
CH
 
In California, we have a new form of identification. It's called, "Real ID". I misspoke when I mentioned, Live ID.
It looks like a driver's license but has magical powers.
With this new ID, you can enter a Federal Building and board domestic flights.
Oh and you can purchase ammunition.
Without it, you are not allowed to do those things I mentioned.
To purchase ammunition, you need the ID of course, next you have to pay $50 for a permit that includes a background check. If you buy 3,000 rounds or more it is legal for you to be tracked by the DOJ.
If you drive out of state you can not bring in more than 50 rounds of ammunition.
I wonder what competitive shooters are doing about that rule?
It is always educational when I go to renew my CCW. We get to learn about all the new laws.

Edit-I should add, in order to qualify for the Real ID, I had to prove my residence with two bills or communications from insurance or medical etc. showing the same address. Also, I had to take in my passport and social security card.
So, the Real ID proves I am a US Citizen and the residence has been confirmed.
 
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Real ID is not just a California thing, it's a nation wide program. It basically is supposed to improve the accuracy
of information of driver's licenses so that they can be used in lieu of passports on domestic flights. But obviously,
California has found other uses for them...

 
I did not know that. It seems California is taking the ball a few more yards.
 
I have a US Passport card that I use for identification when my drivers license isn't sufficient, like going through airport security. Yes it's an extra card to carry but that way I always have two forms of ID with me if needed.

As a 6'3" 240lb black man I worry more about others mistakenly thinking I'm a threat to them, and being shot without cause, than I am about having to use a gun for self defense. Maybe others live in more dangerous areas than I do but even when I travel through high crime areas I've never felt the need or desire to have a gun with me.

When I was younger I had guns for recreational shooting I sold them to buy my race car and had a whole lot more fun with that. The two firearms I currently own were purchased to defend my family against one specific person who had actually threatened my wife, and seemed mentally unstable at the time. I don't use them for recreation because I purchased them with the knowledge that I might actually have to kill someone.

I've spoken many times with veterans and retired law enforcement officers who have taken a human life, its a trauma you never really recover from regardless of the circumstances. I don't think I would want to put myself into a position where I had to make that choice.

Please don't take this as a political statement but rather as a human one, be safe out there....


John
 
I've spoken many times with veterans and retired law enforcement officers who have taken a human life, its a trauma you never really recover from regardless of the circumstances. I don't think I would want to put myself into a position where I had to make that choice.
I am reminded every two years when I take these classes. Yes we can protect our family and it is a life changing event in the event you need to use deadly force. The personal trauma and the financial consequences run far and deep.
After the criminal issues are worked out there is the civil trial to follow.
 
I don't think I would want to put myself into a position where I had to make that choice.

I didn't think I would make a post like this. I've never talked about it here, and I don't ever bring it up in real life either, but I guess today I feel comfortable enough. John M, you struck it when you said "make that choice." Even in battle, it's a decision and a choice to take action. In combat, it is often confusing and the information to make a rational decision to kill or not isn't always there. If it's obvious who the bad guy was and the need to stop them was clear, I never lost a wink of sleep for my actions. I'm okay with those decisions. But once, before I had gained more experience, I chose not to shoot for lack of information. Not shooting turned out to be the wrong choice that day, and I felt bad for my inaction despite my intentions to act justly. After that, I swore never again, so I made the choice preemptively to shoot first and ask questions later. Well, that's not a good policy either, and another bad day came around where I acted without hesitation on a situation that I thought I understood in the moment. Turns out that was also the wrong choice, the situation was not as I interpreted it and that choice cost me the better part of a decade worth of feeling bad about myself and avoiding all social interaction on account of needlessly taking a life. Actually, the toll that took went well beyond that. I feel like I gave up my humanity for that decision. It was a heavy price to pay for being a tough guy, since my conscience isn't rigged for callousness. I still regret my choice that day, but I don't beat myself up too bad over it now that 15 years have passed. There are a few other things that have changed as a result for me. Living home in America, I will never kill someone for stealing a package off my porch or the stereo out of my car. I can think of so many things I've heard people say they'd shoot someone for, even if it's just their legal right to do so (castle doctrine) and not an actual threat to their life. I can only hope it's big talk and nothing more from those folks. How would you really feel after killing another man for digging through your trash can? It's trespassing, maybe, but worth taking a life over? It ain't as easy as it seems in Hollywood. So take those decisions seriously. You'll have to live with yourself for the rest of your life if it isn't perfectly justified. Take my word for it.
 
Well this thread de-evolved rather quickly. I thought we were talking guns/pistols here? :)
 
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