CNC decision paralysis - Probably Tormach

echesak

echesak

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I've been planning to get a CNC for a while. But I finally made a firm decision and am downsizing my astrophotography gear. I'm planning to use the funds to purchase a CNC machine. I've gone through a lot of analysis looking at Bridgeport-style, converting my Series 1, and some of the high-end machines (Haas, etc.). After weighing a lot of options, I decided that something in the low/middle of the road was probably best for me. I'm not really interested in starting from scratch (like a conversion). I don't have the funds nor ceiling height for something like a Haas Mini-mill.

So I had decided on a Tormach. I consider it sort of a half-way DIY machine. Off the bat, it sounds great. ~$9k for a 3 axis CNC machine. But start adding a stand, tooling, vises, a 4th axis, shipping and tax, and now you're at the $20k mark. I was just wondering what others had done in this decision process.

This might not be the right frame of mind, but I'm thinking that by the time I get around to buying some of the accessories for the machine that the machine provider won't be in business, or will have moved on to a new generation machine. So buying it all up-front is a little insurance.

I'm definitely tired of thinking about all the scenarios. But does it make sense to spend $20k on a Tormach? Any thoughts?

Eric
 
I have no opinion on the Tormach, as I know nothing about them.

My personal preference would be to buy a good used machine. I would not be deterred by an old or dead controller, but the price would be adjusted (way down, like scrap price) accordingly. You can always upgrade the controls, there are several options for this.

As long as the machine is in good mechanical condition, the electronics are the easy, and reasonably inexpensive part. Normally the servos are the last thing to fail, and that is where the real money is if they are AC servos, brushed DC servos are pretty reasonable. I did a complete control retrofit on my machine, including installing a z-axis (it started out life as a 2 axis machine) for about $7500. I used the existing DC servos on the X and Y axis and a stepper on the Z. I also have expansion capacity if I need a 4th or 5th axis. And no, I'm NOT using Mach3.

It sounds like you would consider tackling a CNC conversion on your Series 1, so that tells me you have the skills and confidence to fix up a good used machine that is already a CNC.

I hope I am not throwing too much of a kink in your thinking.
 
echesak said:
I've been planning to get a CNC for a while. But I finally made a firm decision and am downsizing my astrophotography gear. I'm planning to use the funds to purchase a CNC machine. I've gone through a lot of analysis looking at Bridgeport-style, converting my Series 1, and some of the high-end machines (Haas, etc.). After weighing a lot of options, I decided that something in the low/middle of the road was probably best for me. I'm not really interested in starting from scratch (like a conversion). I don't have the funds nor ceiling height for something like a Haas Mini-mill.

So I had decided on a Tormach. I consider it sort of a half-way DIY machine. Off the bat, it sounds great. ~$9k for a 3 axis CNC machine. But start adding a stand, tooling, vises, a 4th axis, shipping and tax, and now you're at the $20k mark. I was just wondering what others had done in this decision process.

This might not be the right frame of mind, but I'm thinking that by the time I get around to buying some of the accessories for the machine that the machine provider won't be in business, or will have moved on to a new generation machine. So buying it all up-front is a little insurance.

I'm definitely tired of thinking about all the scenarios. But does it make sense to spend $20k on a Tormach? Any thoughts?

Eric
Click to expand...


Eric... Finally have some time to respond more thoroughly...

I resisted CNC for the longest time but realized my business was suffering w/o it. For me, a conversion was out of the question; time and space to do the work being the biggest factor. Also, CNC is much harder on the ways and most manual mills lack hardened ways. A one-shot lube system is a requirement and I didn't want to spend that much time completely disassembling a machine to drill/tap 2" of cast iron. I also considered the higher end units but power requirements were too great for the circumstances at the time. I also looked at the small mills but, I know they simply struggle, get beat-up fast -and can't do the work my shop needs to produce.

At the time, I also knew I would not be doing high production... I just needed to make a few handfuls of parts that are one step up in complexity too difficult to do manually. I settled on the unit mentioned earlier because I have the manual version of that mill -and it's a known workhorse and fits my work envelope.

If you have prior knowledge of CAD and CAM, that machine is totally plug and play. I wrote the user guide for it which gives you step-by-step setup instructions and many people have commented their amazement that everything works perfectly. The problems you'll likely hear are attributable to either or both a lack of prior foundation CAD/CAM and/or basic machining.

I cut parts with that machine and most everything comes out within a thou (0.001") of spec. It's been rock solid and I had one job that kept it running 10 hours a day for two weeks. -Not a single hiccup.

The weak points:

I don't like the pendant that comes with it and for 160 bucks, upgraded to this: http://vistacnc.com/b07_pendant_P1/pendant_p1A-S.htm It makes all the difference in the world and I now find myself using the CNC mill and just doing simple manual parts controlling with the pendant.

Mach 3: Mach 3 works and does what it's supposed to but, it's poorly documented. The existing documentation just rambles and is several versions out of date. After reading the documentation 25 times and watching countless YouTube videos, I learned enough to make it do what it's supposed to. You will need a decent (and dedicated) host computer to run Mach 3 -and that's to be expected. I put together an Intel Atom dual-core board with a low-end version of Windows 8 and it's more than adequate (by a factor of 5 or more). I have discovered that Mach 3 has it's quirks so, erring on the side of caution, I kill and restart the program frequently. It has never caused a problem -because I proactively manage it's good behavior.

I have been looking for another controller for it (for my purposes and for Matt at Precision Matthews) but, it adds $1500 to the cost -and it seems the general market-place would rather take their chances on Mach 3.

... The machine is very useful. In one job alone, it paid for itself and all the software too. Aside from a leaking oil line coupling (replaced with a 99 cent part from the hardware store) it hasn't had a single problem. It enables me to make parts I wouldn't dream of making on a manual machine -and I have strong background in manual machine operation. I honestly hate to admit this and many people here will be disappointed but, "I'm a CNC convert" now.


Ray
 
Thanks Ray & Jim...

@Jim: I had thought a lot about converting my mill, or buying another. I had also read a lot about updating the controller of an older machine. I've always liked the Centroid unit. But I'm sure there are many others out there. I guess my biggest fear would be to get a machine that would need more work than expected, creating a situation where I had neither the cash to get another machine, no a working machine. It also seems to be a little difficult to locate those older machined that are in decent shape, mechanically. Something else I need to be careful with is power. I've converted all my 3 phase machines to VFD, but a larger CNC machine would probably need a total re-wire to work on single phase.

Do you have any good sites to watch for these machines?


@Ray: I'd never heard of the folks that you recommended and I've been looking at CNC machines for many years. If you're affiliated with them, you might mention that they'd benefit from some work on their search engine ranking.

The smaller of their machines looks similar in size to the Tormach. I like the longer warranty and the hardened ways. I definitely see the benefit there. From my initial look at them, it would appear that the machines might be a little less expensive and have some advantages. I'm looking over this info now and will probably have some questions...

Yep, i'd definitely be interested in seeing some Vid's

Thanks for the replies,

Eric
 
echesak said:
Thanks Ray & Jim...

@Jim: I had thought a lot about converting my mill, or buying another. I had also read a lot about updating the controller of an older machine. I've always liked the Centroid unit. But I'm sure there are many others out there. I guess my biggest fear would be to get a machine that would need more work than expected, creating a situation where I had neither the cash to get another machine, no a working machine. It also seems to be a little difficult to locate those older machined that are in decent shape, mechanically. Something else I need to be careful with is power. I've converted all my 3 phase machines to VFD, but a larger CNC machine would probably need a total re-wire to work on single phase.

Do you have any good sites to watch for these machines?


@Ray: I'd never heard of the folks that you recommended and I've been looking at CNC machines for many years. If you're affiliated with them, you might mention that they'd benefit from some work on their search engine ranking.

The smaller of their machines looks similar in size to the Tormach. I like the longer warranty and the hardened ways. I definitely see the benefit there. From my initial look at them, it would appear that the machines might be a little less expensive and have some advantages. I'm looking over this info now and will probably have some questions...

Yep, i'd definitely be interested in seeing some Vid's

Thanks for the replies,

Eric
Click to expand...

Eric,

Just so you know, Precision Matthews is a thriving company, AAA business rated for 15 years. To maintain some degree of control over product stability, he only purchases his machines from the same 4 factories. Any given model always comes from the same factory. He has just about saturated their ability to produce and if he orders the same models from other factories, he won't be able to get them with the features/customizations he's chosen. A large part of their business is selling heavy, precision/industrial equipment in the PA area. Most of that is not shown on their web site. Long story short, boosting our presence on the search engines would create an epic headache as, our most common machines are typically spoken-for before they arrive at the loading dock. In addition, only he and 2 other fellows (Mark and Travis) do all the setup and inspection before shipping them. [I'm about to head-up there soon to help. Currently, I do most of the sales and technical (phone/email) support -but, I know my way around machines and machine shops reasonably well].

Just so you know, PM is a basic-foundation company that does not employ "talking heads" to answer the phone and tell people what they want to hear -regardless of the facts. They are all great people and if there's a problem with the machine or order, it will be addressed. Generally speaking though, they are so busy, it's hard for them to spend lots of time on the phone -and that's were I come into play...


Ray
 
I did a conversion on a used BPT clone that I got locally. It was cheaper than a Tormach, but it was a heck of a lot of time and effort to get done. I am pleased with the results, though I am using the quill for the Z-axis, and so travel is limited. I feel that square column mills are better in this respect (Like the RF-45 clone that Ray has, and the Tormach). The nice thing about Tormach is that they have a lot of dealers, and a lot of add-ons for their mills (like an ATC and power drawbar). They will all cost you though. If I were to do it again, I would purchase a Tormach, or an import square column mill to convert (I would also look at the PM version, they did not exist when I was looking originally).
 
Here you go... Please follow this thread. There are two posts that have links to videos. This will also give you an idea about what goes on in my custom shop. -Mostly work for private yachts but, other things too. I also do welding, critical-part heat treating etc... I don't claim to be a good videographer and the vids show it all, pimples and warts...

In one vid, you'll see a hole came-out undersized but that's because I grabbed an old endmill. I have multiple sets of duplicate tooling for roughing and finishing. The G-code was setup to run with a fresh bit and I grabbed a worn one. The whole was otherwise perfectly dimensioned and it cleaned-up with a reamer in a jiffy...

Also, I cut these parts at a slightly slower than normal feed rate because, it was the first time cutting the part. After seeing the first part, I tweak feeds/speeds accordingly but in this case, there were only two parts -not worth the time to touch-up the toolpaths.

http://www.hobby-machinist.com/showthread.php?t=23636&page=2




Ray
 
echesak said:
Thanks Ray & Jim...

Something else I need to be careful with is power. I've converted all my 3 phase machines to VFD, but a larger CNC machine would probably need a total re-wire to work on single phase.

Do you have any good sites to watch for these machines?

Thanks for the replies,

Eric
Click to expand...

A Rotary Phase Converter would solve the power issue, at least within the limits of the available power to your shop. A Series 1 size machine probably won't have a spindle motor larger than a 3 HP, well within the range of a single phase input VFD. Most of the control systems normally are single phase anyway. My controls just plug into 120V. The exception to this would be AC servo motors, they may want 3 phase.

I pretty much just keep my eye on Craigslist, fleaBay is another option. Fortunately I live in an area that that is pretty industrial so there is a pretty steady stream of equipment for sale. If I really really want a machine, I'll look in a 1000 mile radius, but the price has to be right for me to go that far. I don't worry about shipping, I can handle 10K lbs with my truck and trailer.

Ray is offering a good option also.
 
I ran a small CNC machine shop out of my home garage for 5 years in Colorado prior moving back to Oklahoma recently. It was a separate two car garage with standard overhead doors and 8' ceiling height. I went with Fadal mills had two VMC-15's at different times. It takes about a half hour to unbolt the Z-axis motor and lay it over and it will just clear and overhead door on skates. I would then pick the spot I wanted to park it. At that point I would take out sheetrock between two ceiling joists and box in an area with sheetrock which would allow the Z-Axis to extend to full height. I purchased one for $15,000 with a little tooling used it for two years and sold it for $20,000. Six months later bought one for $5,000 that just needed an encoder replaced. I spent $250 and did the repair myself. I ran that one for two years and sold it for $17,500. If you take your time and keep searching these bargains can still be had in Fadal machines. Parts and service are still available. I currently have access to a Haas TM-1 tool room mill. Its a great little machine but limited on spindle speed. I ran them on a small rotary phase converter.
 
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