Choosing between a PM 1236 and a PM 1340GT

That is very typical. One key dimension to watch is "bed width". This class of machine are mostly 7 1/4" bed width.

These home shop 1236, 1340, 1440 class of machines just have headstock spaced slightly higher, possibly a different size spindle feedthrough. That really doesn't make them more capable, and probably even makes them LESS rigid.

You won't see a significant weight increase until you see a machine with something like a 9" bed width, and that step in size generally comes at a 2X cost.

PM does sell a Taiwanese machine called the 1440TS (and 1440TV), which has a 9" wide bed, and sells for $9000-10000. Well worth the extra $$$, if you can swing it.

Don't drool on your keyboard...and no, I don't have one of these. For better or worse, I went with a home-shop class of machine, and spent the money I save on a Tormach 1100. But if you have this kind of money to spend, than this (or the equivalent Eison or Victor) seem like a good choice:
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I briefly talked with Matt about the PM1440TS, 1440TV and the 1440ET that he carries. All Taiwan made machines. Matt described them as big brothers to the PM1340GT, same quality just bigger and heavier. Also a much bigger price tag. They look like great machines but nearly double the price. The 1440TV and TS had wider beds and much heavier than the 1440ET. Matt doesn't show these on his website so if interested contact him directly and inquire.
 
Well... made the decision.... Ordered a 1340GT! Matt only has one left... it is single phase 220V. The other option is to wait until around Christmas for the lathe. The mill I am buying is in stock, so I probably will just deal with the motor issue.

Now I have a decision to make on the motor:
*Use the single phase motor for a while...
*Order a 3PH motor and swap it now--and get a VFD... If I do this, there will be a single phase motor available if anyone wants to buy it... I probably will swap it without running it, so the motor will be 'new'.
*Order a BLDC variable speed motor and add variable speed to the lathe... (I realize I can do this with a VFD also).
Any input on this motor issue would be most appreciated... I would really appreciate specific motor make/design/model #'s and the reason for that motor.
BTW: I already understand the part about phase overlap which tends to smooth out chatter and rough finish at very low turning speeds.

The reason I went with the 1340GT is the higher quality, fit, and attention to detail of the Taiwanese machine; it is worth the $$$ to me... so I went with quality.

Part of what made it a bit less painful... was a friend introduced me to a person that needs a considerable amount of custom parts made... so a sizable amount of the difference in $$$, will come back in fees for parts made.
Karma can be a real doll sometimes.. when she is not being the opposite... LOL

THX to all who added their thoughts, the comments in this thread were most appreciated!

GA
 
Derned... I do not like being in the 'plastic' category...

How many more posts do I have to make to get beyond being 'plastic'... :angry: grin
 
Derned... I do not like being in the 'plastic' category...

How many more posts do I have to make to get beyond being 'plastic'... :angry: grin

Congrats on the PM1340GT. I think you made a good choice. I fall in love with mine all over every time I fire it up. It is a joy to operate.

Post up some pics and thoughts when you get it up and running. We like pictures.

Plus more opportunity for you to climb above "plastic".:))
 
BLDC motors are basically a 3-phase motor run on DC and digitally controlled in a closed loop system. The motors themselves are more efficient, i.e. same hp output in a smaller package with a pretty broad torque range and constant speed/current options.

But the only ones I know of that come complete with a display and controller are a 1100w and 2200w (1.5 and 3hp) kits. The motors spin to 6k which would be great on a mill but I'm fairly certain I wouldn't want to be in the same room with a lathe spinning that fast!
 
Not sure why one would use a BLDC in this application due to the limited choices of motors/drives and 2- 4X the cost over an AC inverter/vector system. Something like the Leeson Metric Inverter motor and a Teco VFD would be under $400, with a Hitachi WJ200 or Lenze SMV Vector VFD around $500. Use a true vector motor, you push it up a few C notes.

Most Inverter rated motors in this power/frame size can provide a 10:1 CT, vector rated motors can provide full torque down to 0 RPM. Both will provide full horsepower from base speed to 1.5-2.0x base speed. I was looking into suitable vector motors for the 1340GT, but purchased a 3 phase version. Even the stock (non-inverter) motor operates smoothly down to low RPMs without cogging, but the motor whine at the lower speeds was pretty bad until I set the VFD frequency to 8KHz. I would expect an inverter/vector rated motor to behave much better, so you are probably better off replacing the single phase unit. The biggest issue with switching out the stock motor, is limited space in this area and ability to switch belts (due to lack of travel) if this is still used. I believe the stock motor has a 90 IEC frame, a NEMA 145TC frame may fit with some mods. Drop in metric VFD replacement that I was looking at included the 2HP 1800RPM Leeson (192205.00) true metric series, WEG, or something like a Brook Crompton. You would need get the motor dimensions and check the fit. Marathon (and a few others) have vector rated motors (Y551, Y526) that I also considered, but I am not sure if you can get it to fit because of the encoder output shaft being to long and they have a larger diameter case (so very little travel to adjust the belt). The advantage of a true vector motor like the Marathon series is there are no low speed cooling issues. Baldor also makes a vector rated motor in a 145 frame but it is very expensive and sizing is still an issue.

http://www.electricmotorwholesale.com/LEESON-192071.html
http://www.electricmotorwholesale.com/BROOKCROMPTON-BC4M002-4.html
http://www.electricmotorwholesale.com/MARATHON-Y551.html

I purchased my 1340GT with a Hitachi WJ200 Inverter. These have 100's of programmable variables, so far it has been a bit of a nightmare to get everything set-up and working correctly. Without interfacing the WJ200 with a computer to program would be challenging, and I have had problems with the USB driver (recognizing the inverter) and the programming software. I am sure this is not a problem for experienced individuals, but I have already spent 2 days trying to work out the inverter issues, and I have installed a number of other VFDs in the past.

There is a nice write-up of a lathe VFD conversion with a Leeson Metric motor at the following link:
http://www.projectsinmetal.com/wp-c.../Install-VFD-on-Grizzly-G0602-10x22-Lathe.pdf

I might consider replacing the stock 3 phase motor down the line, in that case I would get rid of the stepped pulley and probably go to a fixed 1.5:1 ratio, the stock ratios are ~1:1 and 2:1. I have replaced the stock belt with a Gates BX24 and BX25 Tri-Power cogged V-Belts. These are much smoother and work better on the smaller pulley sizes, unfortunately I needed a separate size belt size for each pulley position due to lack of enough travel on the motor mount. The BX25 would be perfect for a 1.5:1 ratio. I will post pictures of my VFD conversion when I get the VFD programming worked out.
 
THX WrMiller and MKSJ for the replies... honestly I do not know much about the class of motors for this application.
In my world of heating and AC; we mostly use NEMA size 48 and 56 motors, 120 and 230V PSC; and ECM (electrically commutated motors--basically a 3ph motor with similar electronics to a VFD, albeit controlled automatically by airflow requirements) are becoming more popular in heating and AC equipment. On my service van, I have some test instruments for these ECM motors.
Back to machine tools:

I really appreciate the long post MKSJ... very informative. And since you have the same model lathe... your comments are more applicable.

It appears the BLDC motor is not a realistic option, so I am back to two choices:
*Use the single phase motor for a while, then replace it... or
*Replace the motor with a 3PH and VFD now.
I suspect if I do not even connect the power to the single phase motor, I have a better chance of selling it (and perhaps for a better price)... so it seems the conversion now would be the better route. So the next thing is to choose a motor.

From reading your post... it appears an IEC90 or NEMA145TC frame is the appropriate size... and THX for the links to a few motors.
When you say size can be a restraint, are you speaking of diameter of the motor, or the length (or shaft length also). Probably need to do some googling and learn about motors specific to this application. Would hate to order a motor and have it shipped... only to find it will not fit... :(

On this issue of torque at lower speeds: this 'TC' rating mentioned above... Is higher or lower better in relation to torque/HP at lower speeds? THX
The vector motor sounds like the really good one... however that is expensive.

I have been doing some reading up on the Hitachi WJ200 series of VFD's... they look like good units. Is that software easily available, or is it costly? Is there a download link?

Thx again for the input, any other input would be much appreciated!

John/GA
 
So a few suggestions, as I had many of the same questions when I was looking into this "before I received the lathe". So lots of conjecture, and most of the motors I had been looking at would not fit or were overkill. I can only give suggestions, but one needs to review all the specs (motor dimensions) and see what actually will work.

1. It would be doubtful that one would get much for the stock motor whether new or "slightly used". But worth a try. I doubt anyone would have an issue, if it was lightly used for a month. These are not very impressive motors next to the likes of a Baldor or Marathon. They are made in Taiwan, but beyond that I could not find any information on the OEM motor company or ratings beyond the nameplate.

2. Constant torque rating is the range that constant torque is maintained below the base frequency, so a 10:1 suggests that the range is 6-60Hz, a 1000:1 essentially 0-60Hz, above the base frequency (60Hz) torque drops off with speed for all AC motors. Vector motors can provide very high start up torque, locked rotor torque. Horse power is linearly decreased below the base frequency down to 0 RPM, so at 30Hz one has ~50% of rated horse power. Above 60 Hz, horsepower is maintained up to a rated motor speed, and 1800 RPM motor can easily be run at something like 80 or 90 Hz without problems, Vector motors are easily rated to 2-4X base frequency with no HP loss. There is a lot of information available on-line that goes into greater detail. If you look at VFD lathes and mills, many in the smaller 1.5-3 HP range have 2-3 manual speeds, the rest is taken up by the VFD. In my 1340GT I am currently using a 20-80Hz as a usable range with the vectorless VFD settings, which provides better power delivery with greater torque. Inverter rated fan air cooled motors (TEFC) should not be run continuously below ~15-20Hz due to the potential for overheating.
http://www.marathonelectric.com/motors/docs/manuals/SB371.pdf

3. I did not pull out my stock 3 phase motor to measure it up. You should be able to do this and get the exact measurements to determine the exact frame size. The stock motor dimensions are smaller than most of the replacement motors I was looking at, both overall length and diameter of the housing. Also location of the control box needs to be the correct orientation when mounted. The Leeson IEC metric allows the base to be mounted in multiple 90 degree position, the marathon also have the correct outlet box orientation. The Marathon Vector motors have impressive specs, but I think it is just too long and the diameter too large (these are TENV, no cooling fan is used so larger fins) to get it into the space, let alone have some adjustment room for the belt. But one needs to measure it up, and unless you need a very wide speed range I do not see the benefit in this application. In a 2 speed mill, I think it is more warranted because of the wide speed ranges needed (and high RPM).

4. Hitachi software is available at no cost from their site.
http://www.hitachi-america.us/ice/inverters/products/ac_variable_speed_drives/wj200/

Software:You must first install the PDN driver first before connecting your VFD
http://www.hitachi-america.us/ice/i...e_sales/software_dloads/?WT.ac=pro_smm_sss_sd

Then install the ProDriveNext 2.1.1 English
http://www.hitachi-america.us/ice/i...software_dloads/prodrive_next_software_dload/

At least for me the software was difficult to use and quite primitive, but I couldn't see manually programing from the VFD keypad. Out of the box the WJ200 will not respond to any commands, until you reassign the inputs. Some functions like the Jog need to have both a jog command and a direction command to function. I am still trying to get mine to behave correctly, along with safety interlocks that I am implementing.

I did toss the whole lathe control board, I have a new phenolic board with a DIN rail for a DC power supply and relay controls for all functions. A bit over the top, but allows some interlock and configuration controls over standard hard contacts. Also all the switches on the front lathe panel have been changed and reconfigured.

If you get into it, I would be happy to provide further information, but I am no wizard on these things. Just need to do a bit of reading and figure what you need/layout.
Mark
 
Well... after hesitating and thinking and hesitating and thinking (repeat, repeat)...

Asked Matt if he would mind if I waited for a 1340 that came with a 3PH motor. He said no problem... so I will get the mill soon and the lathe for Christmas.

In the larger picture... this may take some of the stress off setting up the shop... as I will only have one machine to concentrate on.

THX to all of you who posted help with the motor question... the posts were informative and helpful>
The posts on the Hitachi VFD are particularly helpful... learning about it now will save some scrambling when the lathe arrives.

THX again to all who posted on the motors!!!

GA
 
Well...

Christmas has come and gone... it is the new year... the holidays are over...
We went back to work...

And I do not know where my 1340GT is yet...

Thought I would post to this thread and ask if anyone who has a 1340GT in this batch... has heard anything from Matt/Nicole???

THX

John/GA
 
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