We are assuming that you will be able to adapt the transmission to bolt to the new engine, and that is the first thing that has to happen...
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Car clutch questions (trying to make something from nothing)
- Thread starter GoceKU
- Start date
So, this won't be helpful as to what clutch to use but I have to ask what other modifications are you planning for this project?
I had friends in high school who owned Toyota Land Cruisers and every so often the idea of swapping a V8 into them would come up. I've had the opportunity to see a few of these swaps and many others in different cars for on road, off road and racing use. The biggest thing most folks who attempt engine swaps fail to account for is how the increased power will affect other systems on their cars.
I built and worked on classic, custon and race cars for many years so I've seen quite a few nice engine swaps and lots more failed ones. The best swaps are usually installing an engine that was offered by the factory into a car that wasn't supplied with it in the first place. That way all the parts needed are known and possibly available at a scrapyard.
Take your swap for example, I haven't looked up the horsepower and torque curves for the Niva but I assume the specified an engine with low hp but relatively high torque at low rpm. That's what you need for most off-road applications and why so many of the Land Cruiser engine swaps really didn't make the vehicles better. If you put in an engine with more hp but a torque curve which places peak torque at a higher rpm you will need to rev the engine higher at a time when control is more important. There's an old saying about this, "horsepower sell cars but torque wins races."
Another consideration is if you want to achieve higher speeds by increasing your hp you will also need to improve the braking so you can stop as well. If you added a few hundred pounds with a larger engine that complicates things even further. Bigger brakes add unsprung weight, and everything from the tires through the suspension components, drive train components, cooling and exhaust systems will need to be addressed. Also, a physically larger engine will be harder to work on in a small engine compartment and may require modifications to the firewall and other areas.
So, I guess what I'm saying is work through all the parts of your plan on paper before you spend anything on parts to do the swap. Some cars have had lots of engine swaps done to them and components for doing so are available on the aftermarket. Other cars you will need to figure everything out yourself since you're building a one of a kind custom. Have others done the swap you're thinking about so you can see what they did and ask questions from someone who has "been there and done that?" You indicated that aftermarket parts availability is an issue for you so will you be able to source everything you need from a local scrapyard or make it yourself?
So, basically what I'm saying is you've just completed an extensive project rebuilding this car; do you really want to spend another few years swapping the engine? Will you make the car less desirable to collectors (if there are any) by doing an engine swap? And finally, are the limitations of the original power plant bad enough to justify changing it, or can you just do some tuning to get what you need from it?
Cheers,
john
I had friends in high school who owned Toyota Land Cruisers and every so often the idea of swapping a V8 into them would come up. I've had the opportunity to see a few of these swaps and many others in different cars for on road, off road and racing use. The biggest thing most folks who attempt engine swaps fail to account for is how the increased power will affect other systems on their cars.
I built and worked on classic, custon and race cars for many years so I've seen quite a few nice engine swaps and lots more failed ones. The best swaps are usually installing an engine that was offered by the factory into a car that wasn't supplied with it in the first place. That way all the parts needed are known and possibly available at a scrapyard.
Take your swap for example, I haven't looked up the horsepower and torque curves for the Niva but I assume the specified an engine with low hp but relatively high torque at low rpm. That's what you need for most off-road applications and why so many of the Land Cruiser engine swaps really didn't make the vehicles better. If you put in an engine with more hp but a torque curve which places peak torque at a higher rpm you will need to rev the engine higher at a time when control is more important. There's an old saying about this, "horsepower sell cars but torque wins races."
Another consideration is if you want to achieve higher speeds by increasing your hp you will also need to improve the braking so you can stop as well. If you added a few hundred pounds with a larger engine that complicates things even further. Bigger brakes add unsprung weight, and everything from the tires through the suspension components, drive train components, cooling and exhaust systems will need to be addressed. Also, a physically larger engine will be harder to work on in a small engine compartment and may require modifications to the firewall and other areas.
So, I guess what I'm saying is work through all the parts of your plan on paper before you spend anything on parts to do the swap. Some cars have had lots of engine swaps done to them and components for doing so are available on the aftermarket. Other cars you will need to figure everything out yourself since you're building a one of a kind custom. Have others done the swap you're thinking about so you can see what they did and ask questions from someone who has "been there and done that?" You indicated that aftermarket parts availability is an issue for you so will you be able to source everything you need from a local scrapyard or make it yourself?
So, basically what I'm saying is you've just completed an extensive project rebuilding this car; do you really want to spend another few years swapping the engine? Will you make the car less desirable to collectors (if there are any) by doing an engine swap? And finally, are the limitations of the original power plant bad enough to justify changing it, or can you just do some tuning to get what you need from it?
Cheers,
john
I think you'd screw up the weight distribution a great deal with a V6 up front instead of a small inline 4. If we're just pie-in-the-sky dreaming here, I'd suggest a 2l 4 cylinder Euro diesel instead, though weight might still be an issue I guess. On the plus side though, same volume in the engine bay, torque curve would be a good match for off-roading and winter driving and the fuel economy would be better too. Just an idea.
3l v6 PRV engine = 331 lbs.
VAZ 21061 engine = 298 lbs
1.6l VW TDi engine = 300 lbs stripped long block
Not much to say about weight once the numbers are up. The TDi has a cast iron block, so it is heavier than most. For engine swaps, the install weight of a TDI adds 400 lbs to an equivalent aluminum I4, and this swap has a reputation for ruining weight distro in small vehicles.
I've been daydreaming about a third swap for my Samurai with a Mazda KL-DE V6, because they are tiny and light and I need a better redline because I'm overgeared for road travel. The power and torque numbers look just fine to me for a stock transmission with a stage 1 clutch. I think the Lada I4 makes similar numbers to the Suzuki G16, so the PRV engine swap should be great in theory. These two swaps are very similar.
VAZ 21061 engine = 298 lbs
1.6l VW TDi engine = 300 lbs stripped long block
Not much to say about weight once the numbers are up. The TDi has a cast iron block, so it is heavier than most. For engine swaps, the install weight of a TDI adds 400 lbs to an equivalent aluminum I4, and this swap has a reputation for ruining weight distro in small vehicles.
I've been daydreaming about a third swap for my Samurai with a Mazda KL-DE V6, because they are tiny and light and I need a better redline because I'm overgeared for road travel. The power and torque numbers look just fine to me for a stock transmission with a stage 1 clutch. I think the Lada I4 makes similar numbers to the Suzuki G16, so the PRV engine swap should be great in theory. These two swaps are very similar.
My buddy has a Samurai that he tows behind his RV; fun little car but I barely fit in the passenger seat and it sure feels like you're pedaling hard on the highway. He did take me off-road a little bit though and it seems pretty competent for such a little thing 
Engine swaps can be a lot of fun, or not depending on how well it's planned and what the ultimate goals are. No doubt a blown 502 in the back of a VW bus is pretty cool but it definitely fails on the practicality side. Hanging around race tracks you get to see a lot of "alterations" from stock, plenty of folks who think they know better than the original engineers but very few who actually do.
The main thing for any modification regardless of how big or small is to be clear on what the goals are, otherwise you'll never know if you succeed or failed. Wanting more top end speed is pretty common among modifiers, I had a Triumph TR 4 that would scream at modern highway speeds so I definitely understand that. The original/factory solution was fitting an overdrive unit to the transmission, one common modification was swapping in a modern 5 speed unit. I never did either but probably would have if I still owned that car today.
In vintage car circles there's always disagreement between the purists and the modifiers. I'm firmly on the side of "it's your car, do whatever makes you happy." However, I've seen lots of mods that not only don't achieve what the person originally wanted but actually decrease the value, safety, or functionality of the ride in question.
Seeing the work the OP has already done I don't have any doubts he can pull off an engine swap. I would just encourage him to write down all the goals of doing so and also what the possible downsides are as well. Finally, look at ways to achieve some or all of the goals without swapping the engine (turbos come to mind).
JMHO,
John
Engine swaps can be a lot of fun, or not depending on how well it's planned and what the ultimate goals are. No doubt a blown 502 in the back of a VW bus is pretty cool but it definitely fails on the practicality side. Hanging around race tracks you get to see a lot of "alterations" from stock, plenty of folks who think they know better than the original engineers but very few who actually do.
The main thing for any modification regardless of how big or small is to be clear on what the goals are, otherwise you'll never know if you succeed or failed. Wanting more top end speed is pretty common among modifiers, I had a Triumph TR 4 that would scream at modern highway speeds so I definitely understand that. The original/factory solution was fitting an overdrive unit to the transmission, one common modification was swapping in a modern 5 speed unit. I never did either but probably would have if I still owned that car today.
In vintage car circles there's always disagreement between the purists and the modifiers. I'm firmly on the side of "it's your car, do whatever makes you happy." However, I've seen lots of mods that not only don't achieve what the person originally wanted but actually decrease the value, safety, or functionality of the ride in question.
Seeing the work the OP has already done I don't have any doubts he can pull off an engine swap. I would just encourage him to write down all the goals of doing so and also what the possible downsides are as well. Finally, look at ways to achieve some or all of the goals without swapping the engine (turbos come to mind).
JMHO,
John
yeah, I wondered about that 
To be honest, even just a modern small fuel injected 3 or 4 will be night and day difference to the old carbbed Niva engine. I don't know what they put in the Ford Fiesta/ Mazda 2 anymore (or even if you can get a junked one in Macedonia), but that would be a good match. Something like a 1.3 or 1.6l 3 or 4 cyl. A 1l 3 cyl turbo would be pretty neat too!
To be honest, even just a modern small fuel injected 3 or 4 will be night and day difference to the old carbbed Niva engine. I don't know what they put in the Ford Fiesta/ Mazda 2 anymore (or even if you can get a junked one in Macedonia), but that would be a good match. Something like a 1.3 or 1.6l 3 or 4 cyl. A 1l 3 cyl turbo would be pretty neat too!
Clutch swaps can get ugly real quick.
Swapping the disk, needs to fit within the stock flywheel, and pressure plate, and have the right spines to fit the tranny.
A pressure plate needs to fit in the bell housing, and work with the selected throwout bearing. The linkage also needs to work with the frame, and bell housing, and fit the throwout bearing.
Hydraulic clutch stuff makes a lot of the easier, but still not something that one can easily look up parts needed on the web. Often the simplest path is to look at hewer versions of the same, or similar vehicle.
Swapping the disk, needs to fit within the stock flywheel, and pressure plate, and have the right spines to fit the tranny.
A pressure plate needs to fit in the bell housing, and work with the selected throwout bearing. The linkage also needs to work with the frame, and bell housing, and fit the throwout bearing.
Hydraulic clutch stuff makes a lot of the easier, but still not something that one can easily look up parts needed on the web. Often the simplest path is to look at hewer versions of the same, or similar vehicle.
I'm a big fan of 4 cylinder diesels, but not VW i prefer Peugeot diesels, i do drive them every day, i want something with a bit more RPM and lighter, the PRV v6 i have in mind is close to 60kg lighter than a diesel especially when you figure that any diesel needs a big turbo and intercooler to produce any power. The PRV i have sitting in my garage is Peugeot ZPJ 3.0 167hp and 235 Nm of torque. One good thing is that engine has a short crank and the gearbox needs a long one, that said i have more space for adapter plate. The modern mazda/ ford engines i can find them but i need to get a whole parts car and parts for them can be expensive, espacily clutches. I did buy a spare 4 speed gearbox from a Lada sedan (same as the one in my Niva). Ratios are 1st 3.6, 2 gear 2.1, 3rd 1.3 4th 1:1 the transfer case then lowes them high1.2 and low 2.1 and both diff are 4,3 gear ratio. With tires 25" to 27" make the little niva very slow.
Suzuki Samurai was inspired from a lada niva, they even have some small interchangeable parts, like the headlamps, wheels, driveshaft U joints... i'm not sure who copped who but they both are incredibly capable little things. So much underdriven drivetrain barely usable on the road, more like a tractor then a car.
That's kinda what I was saying about engine swaps. The character of your little car isn't one of a fast road car, it's probably engineered perfectly for what it does which is going over rough terrain in tight spaces. Every design has trade-offs and often it's best to understand and live with them.
I get that you have an engine that might work for a swap but if it were me I would drive the Niva as is and improve things incrementally before I started on swapping the engine out. At the very least it will give you time to plan and gather parts before you jump into it.
Cheers,
John
I get that you have an engine that might work for a swap but if it were me I would drive the Niva as is and improve things incrementally before I started on swapping the engine out. At the very least it will give you time to plan and gather parts before you jump into it.
Cheers,
John