Brown & Sharp Surface Grinder

[Robo_Pi]

When I bought my B&S SG (for $200) I couldn't see it running first. My biggest concern was the spindle condition since replacing the bearings can be quite expensive. If you can see them running, do it and check the spindle bearings. If they can't run it, turn it over by hand and see if you can feel any rough spots. I was lucky and found a diamond in the rough... well, maybe not a diamond, but good enough for my use for $200!

Sounds great! I wonder though if it would be a very good idea to turn it on without taking it apart to make sure the bearings are well greased or oiled (whatever they use). Turning it on to test it could potentially damage good bearings that might have otherwise been salvageable. I've ruined dry bearings that way before so I'm very leary about turning things on before I inspect the bearings up-close and personal.

Another expense will be adapters for mounting the grinding wheels. Try to get some with your deal. The mag chuck is a big plus as well. It's easy to spend more money after the initial cost of the machine just to get it running and fully operational.

I doubt that they would be willing to throw anything in at this price. They actually have this "marked down" from $312. A price I definitely would not give them for this machine. But $218,? Maybe. Although I would definitely grab the Taft-Pierce for $235 first.

 

[GL]

If you want to play, and the price is not a problem, go for it

 

[Bob Korves]

Right now the goal is to gain some experience, have some fun, and maybe end up with a usable grinder for odd jobs.

That makes good sense.

As a tool bit sharpener it wouldn't need to be very accurate at all. On a 1/2" tool bit we're only talking about being accurate over 1/2". That should be doable.

True, and a good use for a surface grinder, but it does take time to set up for compound angles, and is much easier with an magnetic angle $ine plate or other universal type fixture.

I wonder though if it would be a very good idea to turn it on without taking it apart to make sure the bearings are well greased or oiled (whatever they use). Turning it on to test it could potentially damage good bearings that might have otherwise been salvageable.

Correct. Don't try to run either of those old machines that have been sitting around. Turn the bearings slowly by hand, but don't force them. Feel for roughness and for play in both directions. A bad spindle is usually a deal breaker to a hobbyist looking at an old surface grinder.

One of the reasons I'm thinking about this is because I just ground a 1/2" threading tool bit using a home made 30 degree sled on a bench grinder. I actually got the job done but it took forever.

Surface grinders have all kinds of usefulness with small quick grinding jobs. Even making a washer or nut thinner. The mag chuck is most of the magic. It sounds like you have your head in the right place to look at them and maybe pick one up. Just trying to make sure you see reality reasonably clearly. I should talk, I bought a 1946/1947 B&S 2L with a known bad plain bearing spindle which was disassembled, and the rest of the machine pretty much an unknown. It works well now... And I bought it from benmychree, who is a straight up man.

.

 

[Robo_Pi]

Thanks for the insightful comments Bob,

Here's some more questions I'd really appreciate your wisdom on.

They have two more surface grinders close to my price range. They are asking $299 each for these.

I'll ask questions following these photos.

First let me say that the original grinder I posted, (the rusty Brown and Sharp) had the motor located on the lower back and was apparently driven by a belt?

I just realized the Taft-Pierce has its motor mounted directly on the grinding wheel shaft behind the machine.



They also have this Do All grinder for $299 No mag chuck here either.


I just noticed the Do All also has the motor mounted directly on the grind wheel shaft




Finally they have this Covel grinder also for $299 This one has a mag chuck on it.


But notice the back of the Covel. No motor sticking out. Is the motor in the base?



These all have 440 3-phase motors. So I'm guessing that I'm going to need to replace the motor with a 120v or 240v standard residence electric. For my use I would actually prefer to run it on 120 if possible.

In any case. I wonder which motor style might be the easiest to replace?

I kind of like the Covel. Where is the motor on the Covel? Can't tell by the photo.

I might be willing to go as much as $300 for a potentially better starting project. That would be about my upper limit for a surface grinder right now. I like the style of the Covel. It kind of looks like a vertical mill the way the handles are laid out. I like old-fashioned looking stuff.

Anyway I just thought I'd toss this out here. I'll most likely need to replace the motor with something that can handle my resident electric service. So how the motor mounts might be something worth taking into consideration. I also like the fact that on the Covel there' s no motor sticking out the back of it making it possible to push up closer to a wall. The ones with the motor sticking out the back are going to take up a larger footprint in the shop. Although even though the Covel saves back space, it's got those big handwheels sticking out on the front. I'll probably be banging into those all the time.

Always trade-offs to be consider.

 

[Dabbler]

Even if these are 'practice' rebuilds, $200-$300 is a small price to pay for the entertainment! I paid over $2200 for mine and I'm still rebuilding it! 14 months on....

 

[Robo_Pi]

Even if these are 'practice' rebuilds, $200-$300 is a small price to pay for the entertainment! I paid over $2200 for mine and I'm still rebuilding it! 14 months on....

My thinking as well. Besides I really don't need a surface grinder. I just want to play around with one.

My "Big Plan". Is to also get a nice lathe and vertical milling machine to rebuild as well. But I'm willing to pay about a grand a piece for those. My total "allowance" for play is $2500. So we'll see what happens.

People might say, "Why not just wait until you're ready to buy?" But actually posting all these potential finds and asking questions about them helps me to learn a bunch of stuff in the interim. Just like with these grinders. I only just now realized that they all have motors mounted differently, so that might be something useful to consider in the long haul.

I'm probably not going to actually buy anything until mid summer. In fact, these particular machines will most likely be long gone by then and I'll have to choose from whatever new has come in. They already sold two lathes and a milling machine I had my eye on. I'm currently looking at a really nice lathe for $999, but I'm sure it will be long gone by the time I'm ready to buy. None the less I actually learned a lot just buy posting about those potential purchases. So I hope it's ok to keep asking questions.

When I finally do pick up the real thing I'll have a much better idea what I'm getting into.

 

[Asm109]

I would plan on running 220V single phase to the grinder and then buying a VFD to run the motor.
Assuming the 440V motor is running and has not had the smoke let out.

 

[Bob Korves]

Thanks for the insightful comments Bob,

Here's some more questions I'd really appreciate your wisdom on.

They have two more surface grinders close to my price range. They are asking $299 each for these.

I'll ask questions following these photos.

First let me say that the original grinder I posted, (the rusty Brown and Sharp) had the motor located on the lower back and was apparently driven by a belt?

I just realized the Taft-Pierce has its motor mounted directly on the grinding wheel shaft behind the machine.
View attachment 287420


They also have this Do All grinder for $299 No mag chuck here either.
View attachment 287421

I just noticed the Do All also has the motor mounted directly on the grind wheel shaft

View attachment 287422


Finally they have this Covel grinder also for $299 This one has a mag chuck on it.
View attachment 287423

But notice the back of the Covel. No motor sticking out. Is the motor in the base?
View attachment 287424


These all have 440 3-phase motors. So I'm guessing that I'm going to need to replace the motor with a 120v or 240v standard residence electric. For my use I would actually prefer to run it on 120 if possible.

In any case. I wonder which motor style might be the easiest to replace?

I kind of like the Covel. Where is the motor on the Covel? Can't tell by the photo.

I might be willing to go as much as $300 for a potentially better starting project. That would be about my upper limit for a surface grinder right now. I like the style of the Covel. It kind of looks like a vertical mill the way the handles are laid out. I like old-fashioned looking stuff.

Anyway I just thought I'd toss this out here. I'll most likely need to replace the motor with something that can handle my resident electric service. So how the motor mounts might be something worth taking into consideration. I also like the fact that on the Covel there' s no motor sticking out the back of it making it possible to push up closer to a wall. The ones with the motor sticking out the back are going to take up a larger footprint in the shop. Although even though the Covel saves back space, it's got those big handwheels sticking out on the front. I'll probably be banging into those all the time.

Always trade-offs to be consider.

Check to see for sure if the motors are 440v only. Often they will be 220/440v. Look on the motor tags. 3 phase runs smoother than single phase does, and a VFD makes it easy to hook up. The motors directly behind the spindle are a more recent idea. They eliminate belts, which take a lot of hardware to make them work ,and the spindle/motor assembly is also more easily and simply able to go up and down while they are running. Belts introduce some mechanical noise into the spindle, which seems not to hurt much, but the direct drive spindles, with just spider shaped rubber Lovejoy couplings, are inherently smooth and simple designs. After 20 years, the coupling gets loose and you change the Lovejoy coupling, easy to find at any motor shop or Grainger for a few dollars. Easy to do, reliable, simple. My old 1940's B&S 2L grinder has a 126" long, 2" wide reinforced rubber flat belt than runs over 4 idler pulleys and the motor and spindle pulleys. It also has a heavy counterweight arm on one of those pulleys. If the belt falls off a pulley or breaks, the expensive belt is likely to be ruined, and all those components can add noise to the spindle that is supposed to run dead smooth. In reality, the heavy spindle on my grinder that runs in stout bronze bearing boxes seems to run dead smooth, so maybe with all the inertia and the reinforced rubber belt it runs smooth. I would not be surprised if B&S put a lot of effort in the design to make it all run smoothly, cuz' it still does more than 70 years later. But really, to me the newer direct drive style spindles make a lot more sense, and must be both more robust and hugely less expensive to design, build, and maintain. Beyond the spindle belt and hardware, my grinder also has a 1x36(?) leather flat belt that runs the power feeds and the table traverse, through a whole mass of shafts, gears, and other mechanical stuff that keep the heavy table moving smoothly from end to end, absorbing energy in an incredible spring contraption and then feeding it back in the other direction, and the other belt also moving the table over in adjustable increments to the front or to the rear of the saddle for cross feeds. All have adjustable stops and adjustable step overs in either direction. It takes ~10 minutes to lube everything before starting the motor running. To make a machine like that today would be prohibitively expensive. But, it still soldiers on, in decent condition, everything works, 70 years later.

The Covel you posted the picture of is a very old design, which says nothing about it's quality. It is all about the execution when it was designed and made. Any of these old machines need to be checked out very carefully before buying them. A lot of the parts are special made, custom stuff, and parts are not available for them except if you get lucky and find a used part off another old machine. Think seriously for a while about things you will have to repair or make from scratch. Too much of that or too difficult and the project often languishes.

Bottom line, all those styles work fine if they are well designed and taken care of. Don't be in a big hurry to say yes to one, check it out carefully, and ask yourself if it looks like something you really want to get into a long term relationship with...

 

[C-Bag]

My thinking as well. Besides I really don't need a surface grinder. I just want to play around with one.

My "Big Plan". Is to also get a nice lathe and vertical milling machine to rebuild as well. But I'm willing to pay about a grand a piece for those. My total "allowance" for play is $2500. So we'll see what happens.

People might say, "Why not just wait until you're ready to buy?" But actually posting all these potential finds and asking questions about them helps me to learn a bunch of stuff in the interim. Just like with these grinders. I only just now realized that they all have motors mounted differently, so that might be something useful to consider in the long haul.

I'm probably not going to actually buy anything until mid summer. In fact, these particular machines will most likely be long gone by then and I'll have to choose from whatever new has come in. They already sold two lathes and a milling machine I had my eye on. I'm currently looking at a really nice lathe for $999, but I'm sure it will be long gone by the time I'm ready to buy. None the less I actually learned a lot just buy posting about those potential purchases. So I hope it's ok to keep asking questions.

When I finally do pick up the real thing I'll have a much better idea what I'm getting into.

This is a great place to do your "plan". Sometimes you can follow a thread here and get what you need. Sometimes you just have to jump in like you did. SG's are a very deep subject and my foray into the abyss of gathering intell on them here was very satisfying. But it also made me very cautious as there are very few SG's around here and I've only seen basket cases for $4-500 and never $2-300 like you seem to have endlessly. Sketchy ones start at $1k+ and I'm not sure the more expensive ones don't have problems. Best of luck and good hunting.

 

[Robo_Pi]

Check to see for sure if the motors are 440v only. Often they will be 220/440v. Look on the motor tags. 3 phase runs smoother than single phase does, and a VFD makes it easy to hook up. The motors directly behind the spindle are a more recent idea. They eliminate belts, which take a lot of hardware to make them work ,and the spindle/motor assembly is also more easily and simply able to go up and down while they are running. ,...

Thank you very much Bob, for sharing your vast knowledge. You're about to earn this website a donation from me. I have no problem paying for quality information as you have been providing.

I'm actually pretty heavy into electronics. Only more into the computer end of it, like Arduino and Raspberry Pi. Most of the motors I work with are usually either small PM motors, stepper motors, or servo motors. All usually running on anything from 5 volts to 24 volts. So I have a lot of experience with that sort of thing. But when it comes to large AC motors I really don't have much experience.

If I can use the motors that come on these machines with my current 220v residential service, I'll definitely go with that. I didn't know that 3 phase motors would be compatible with standard residential electric service. So apparently I have a lot to learn about these motors. It appears I'll be dealing with the same motor issues with the lathe and milling machine too. I was thinking that I would need to replace the motors on all of these. I used to have a Bridgeport Mill, and a large South Bend lathe. Both of those ran on regular 110 AC. As far as I can remember that's the way those machines where when I bought them. I don't recall having motor issues with those. But that was quite some time ago.

Bottom line, all those styles work fine if they are well designed and taken care of. Don't be in a big hurry to say yes to one, check it out carefully, and ask yourself if it looks like something you really want to get into a long term relationship with...

I'm in no hurry to actually buy. But I am kind of anxious to learn before I buy.

I do have one consideration that may come into play. I don't like to drive long distances anymore than I need to. I also don't really feel like driving around picking up three different machines from three different places. The place where I'm finding these machines is 200 miles from me. From what I have seen thus far they seem to have a large overturn in inventory and they appear to have some pretty good prices, at least in terms of what I'm willing to pay.

Ideally I would like to set things up so I can just pick up all three machines in one fell swoop. One trip to rule them all.

I'm far more picky about the lathe and vertical mill. So when they have a lathe and vertical mill I'm happy with I'll probably just grab whatever cheap surface grinder they happen to have on the floor at that time. Just so I can pick them all up at once and saving having to make another trip. Not to worry about saving money. I just don't like to travel anymore than I need to. So this is something I'm considering.

I might consider something closer if I find something on Craigslist, etc. We'll have to see how things work out.

The other thing nice about buying everything at this one place is that they will load everything on the trailer lickety split. Usually when you buy something heavy from someone on Craigslist you end up spending a day trying to inch the machine up trailer ramps, etc.

Anyway, these may seem like trival concerns. But it's just the way I operate. When I do make this trip I just want to make one trip and come home with all three machines on the trailer. So it's not exactly a matter of impatience. It's just that I don't want to spend all summer going around buying three different machines.

The other thing too, at least with the surface grinder. At the price I'm willing to pay, it's not going to be the end of the world if it turns out to be total junk. As I've already suggested, some money could be recouped by the scrap yard, and selling whatever parts on the machine I might be able to sell.

It's not like I'm paying $2500 for a surface grinder and ending up with absolute junk. That would be major loss.

Losing $300 with some potential recovery via scrap metal and parting it out isn't going to be a life-altering loss.