Advice on machine choice

esmith

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Looking at buying a benchtop mill and am having some issues deciding. I've narrowed it down to three choices:
  • 4190 Deluxe HiTorque Mini Mill
  • PM-25MV
  • PM-728VT
There is obviously a big spread in the size and cost of these, which is my issue. I can afford a PM-728VT with DRO and a vise, clamping kit and some tooling but it is pushing my budget leaving nothing for things like an x-axis power feed, power drawbar or power lift. It also doesn't leave much budget let for additional tooling. It is also pushing the space I have for a machine to the limit. The PM-25MV would seem to be the logic choice at that point as it frees up a fair amount of budget for tooling and accessories. I know this machine will work for me for a bit, but I'm also pretty sure I will want something larger as my projects tend to grow in size and scope.

This sort of leads me to my third option. Go with the 4190 Deluxe HiTorque Mini Mill which I know I will outgrow, but I can invest in the tooling and accessories now and make a jump to a larger machine when I have a larger budget (and maybe a larger space). I could then potentially also do a CNC conversion on the HiTorque when I get a larger manual mill.

I appreciate any advice. This will be my first mill (well, I have a Nomad 3 but don't really count that) and am trying to get some more perspectives and a better understanding of how much a limited budget for accessories and tooling initially will be a problem. I already have indicators, parallels, etc.

Thanks!
 
Look at the specs between the PM25 and 728T. The 728T is not only higher quality (made in Taiwan), but it has a larger working envelope despite being about the same physical size as the PM25.

You can always add things like power feed, DRO, tooling later. You can't easily add build quality or travel distance.

I'm very pro small machines, but the 4190 seems to very much fall into a which one of these things doesn't belong in this case unless the smaller size is more desirable than you are saying.

If you think a machine is too small for your needs it probably is.
 
You’ll get plenty of opinions here. One theme that will be pretty common, is that getting machines is never a bad thing. Of course there are then about a thousand flavours to the conclusion that you should buy a machine. Everyone’s situation is a bit different, so the right machine for one person may be a poor choice for the next person.

I am a proponent of buying as much machine (as large as you can manage and the highest quality) - forget about the bling and future follow-up stuff. The machines on your list are small, entry level machines - that is fine. Within that group, get the biggest and best that will fit your space.

Of course you also need some tooling. I caution you against the path that I and many others have taken - to purchase tooling because it is cool and would sure be handy some time. I have lots of stuff that is still new in the container, been sitting for years. Me, I’m okay with buying tools because I might need them someday - some of those weird purchases have saved the day for me, but others have just sat. My budget is okay with this approach. If you are budget conscious, only buy what you actually need, over time you will build up a good kit and not break the bank.

Upgrades to size or quality can only be done through buying another machine (nothing wrong with having lots of machines, that is also a common recommendation here - since there is no such thing as the perfect mill, lathe etc). This advice was given to me prior to the first machine I got - that was a 15” swing lathe in near new condition (towards the large end of the “small lathe” class). It cost a bomb for a young guy to play with, that was 41 years ago, I still use it a lot, the price is long since forgotten - one of the best decisions of my life. If you get something too small and crappy, you be reminded every time you use it.
 
Look at the specs between the PM25 and 728T. The 728T is not only higher quality (made in Taiwan), but it has a larger working envelope despite being about the same physical size as the PM25.

You can always add things like power feed, DRO, tooling later. You can't easily add build quality or travel distance.

I'm very pro small machines, but the 4190 seems to very much fall into a which one of these things doesn't belong in this case unless the smaller size is more desirable than you are saying.

If you think a machine is too small for your needs it probably is.
If you think it’s too small it probably is. Many of us start out without a clear picture of what future projects will be. That’s where the common advice of “buy the biggest and best you can” comes from.

You say you have limited space but is that self imposed, or due to a physical restriction? This hobby tends to grow to the available size so it’s worthwhile taking a critical look at whatever seems like you couldn’t part with and imagine the space you would have without it.

Also, you list only new machines. If you open yourself to used ones you should be able to pick up a used RF30 for less than the mini mill. Although they aren’t perfect they do have the advantage of mass which is more important than you might think.

Bridgeport style knee mills are as popular as they are for good reason. I had an RF30 but when a 3/4 size knee mill came available locally for a decent price I decided to change my small shop layout to accommodate it.

Long ago I gave up a Gorton 1-22 mill that was gifted to me. I didn’t think it would fit into my garage after I sold the business that I had it in before. Now I know I could have made it work, and it would have saved me from going down a fairly expensive path in the long run. Fortunately, I have one at work now if I need something more capable than what I have at home.

Best advice I can give is take your time and select whatever you think will be best. It may work out that you’ll go through several machines before you settle on the “perfect” one. There’s nothing wrong with upgrading as needed but buying anything that doesn’t meet your needs can only bring frustration.

If you can find a member here that lives close to you ask if they’ll let you come and check out their shop. You may be surprised what folks can fit into a small space when they want to.

Cheers,

John
 
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Thanks everyone for the advice. It sort of seems to be lining up with what I have been thinking, which is that the PM-728VT is probably the best option as long as I can make it work in my budget. A few other questions that came up:

Constraints on space
I live in a townhouse currently and my shop is literally my first floor. This leads to a few constriants. The first is that everything has to fit through a standard door. This creates some difficulties for anything larger then benchtop. The room itself is also somewhat limiting at the same time. Being on the first floor, one wall has to be mostly free so there is a clear path from the door to the stairs to the rest of the house. There is also an alcove that I can't block off and a bathroom which means that there is another wall that is only about half usable. I am slowly working on reorganizing so that even if the PM-728VT is a bit cramped right now, it won't always be. Interesting side note, being greated with a shop when someone first comes over hasn't been as big of an issue with dating as I first thought it would be.

Used machines
I'm up for a used machine and have been keeping an eye out around me (lookin in all of Washington down to North Western Oregon). I have seen some come up that I would love but they tend to be either too large, a step down from even from the 4190 or a CNC conversion without an option for manual milling. I am specifically looking for a manual mill as while I have enjoyed designing things in Fusion and figuring out tool paths, the amount of setup and time that takes isn't worth it for a lot of the things I do as they are 1 off parts. Even if I design them for other reasons, figuring out the fixturing and tool paths, while a great learning experience, isn't so great for getting things done. There is currently a Grizzly G0720/SIEG SX4 in the Portland area that I have been considering (new to the forum so I don't think I can post a link yet). At $4,500 it seems like a good deal, but I'd have to rewire it to 110V and logistically it is more of a challenge (weight, size and a 3 hour drive). If anyone has any thoughts on this machine, I'd love to hear them. It would come in about the same as the PM-728VT with a DRO installed.
 
At $4,500 it seems like a good deal, but I'd have to rewire it to 110V and logistically it is more of a challenge (weight, size and a 3 hour drive). If anyone has any thoughts on this machine, I'd love to hear them. It would come in about the same as the PM-728VT with a DRO installed.

That price seems high. The G0720 is no longer sold by Grizzly, and what seems to be its replacement the G0761 is only $3500 brand new.
 
One thing that the wording of your latest reply possibly suggests might be the nature of tasks you're performing.

Will you be using this mill for any paid work (I mean definitely be used in this way, as opposed to a wistful hope)?

If so, that adds a great deal of weight to the advice to go as good and as big as you can.

If you're going to depend on your machine tools for any notable part of your income, you're going to want to do the best that you can, to make sure that income stream is not interrupted by hitting the edge of your work envelope or the job taking longer (due to you having to account for the threat of losing precision/finish with deeper cuts).
 
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"If you think it’s too small it probably is. Many of us start out without a clear picture of what future projects will be. That’s where the common advice of “buy the biggest and best you can” comes from."
I bought a mill before ever using one. At the time, I had a 24x28 building for a shop. I bought a PM 940. It was as large as you can go on a 'bench' mill. OK, it's big. and around 1000 lbs. Only a couple times have I used the full length of the table, or got close to using up all the 'Z' height.

These days, I'm in one bay of a home garage - about 13x20. Something a bit smaller would probably been a better fit, but, the 940 works!
 
Upgrades to size or quality can only be done through buying another machine
For the overwhelming majority of purposes, I'd definitely agree about size (if we're talking work envelope; with one exception more of which later).

However, 'quality' (depending on what we mean by 'quality') can be improved, and notably so. Whether it's worth the investment in time, and sometimes money, is another thing.

What do I mean?

Well it seems, no matter the size, Chinese machine tools tend to come with less than perfect QC out of the box.

From what I've read on here and other places, the 'larger' Chinese lathes from reputable importers (benchtop lathes of 9x and up) seem to be a little rough and ready, but largely without fundamental in-built flaws.

Once you've disassembled, cleaned, deburred, adjusted and generally tidied these larger Chinese machines, there's not much more room for improvement in 'quality' terms.

On the other hand, the mini-lathes (7x lathes), again from reputable importers, do have a lot of room for quality improvements (and yeah, that's hardly a glowing endorsement of these mini lathes :grin:)

The notable lack of rigidity (I'd call it a quality issue, because it's the cost cutting that has led to the the bed being too narrow and the design of the ways and shear plate mechanism keeping the saddle from moving, being hard to adjust well and not really sufficient) can in part, be ameliorated by fettling the saddle, lapping the undersides of the ways, both on the rear and front ways and in between the ways and introducing an additional shear plate in between the ways.

The headstock deep race ball bearings can be replaced with tapered roller bearings or angular contact bearings.

The headstock base (where it makes contact with the bed) can be fettled to get better and more square contact with the bed. The same can be done with the tailstock.

The spindle flange can be trued up to improve contact with a chuck.

The sliding surfaces on the saddle, cross slide and top slide can all be lapped to improve contact with their opposite numbers.

Needle bearings can be added to the carriage, cross slide, top slide and tailstock to improve feel and reduce backlash.

The cross slide leadscrew nut can be modded or replaced to reduce backlash.

The cross slide can be modified to allow extended travel or an extended version bought.

All the knobs and handwheels themselves can be replaced with improved shop-made or bought versions.

The top slide can be swapped out for a T-slot equipped model (available from LMS and elsewhere).

And of course, finally there'll be the minor deburring and adjustment and tidying that you'd do to any of these Chinese machines.

Mill-equivalent-to-the-above-mentioned improvements could be done to one of the Chinese mini mills too.

Would all this potential headroom for improvements make buying a Chinese mini mill or mini lathe a fundamentally good idea?

Eh, unless one had specific budget or space constraints that forces one's hand, probably not. Buy bigger and better, I reckon.

That said, doing these kinds of machine upgrading, rebuilding and fettling tasks does teach you an awful lot about machine tools (and no, not just that you ought to have spent more money :grin:). So there can be a benefit there.

Of course the OP can, space-wise and financially, afford one of PM's Taiwanese mills, so none of this is particularly relevant to them, but these threads are here for anybody to read, now and in the future so, the information above might be useful to someone at some point.
 
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