10EE Problem

Ck Robby Nowell on YouTube, he has the same type with the tubes, he had problems too. But he shows ALOT of what he found wrong , broken wire , contact points stuck and arkin not locking just cleaning fixed lots of the reason . Very clear videos and you can see it all.
 
Everytime my EE has gone down, I have looked for all the catastrophic issues, the ones that signal death or a major headache. Every time the problem has been fixed by cleaning the contact points or finding cracked wire in motor, or a stuck switch. None of these problems took $10 to fix. None of these fixes required me to get rid of the WiaD set up. I still have 8 rpm to 3000 rpm with enough torque at 8 rpm to pick any 10 guys reading this and fling em across the room.

I can not speak for Monarch but I would be dumbfounded if they would do a regrind, refit and replace and tune drive for the price Matt mentions. My guess is the out the door price would be closer to double that. If you really don't need bottom end torque then going the 10 hp route with no back gear case works fine. Given that Matt has a 75 machine, relatively easy to trouble shoot, its seems prudent to spend a bit of time researching the obvious gremlins. There are only a few hundred at most pertinent posts on PM regarding that era machine, if it was me I would start reading and then rereading. Lots of guys have marched down this road before. I can not speak to Karls machine, don't have any first hand experience, but I have checked out numerous conversions, some of the very expensive Fanuc controller machines. Bottom line for me was they all stunk, in one smelly way or another, no bottom end, poor speed regulation under load, huge cabinet slung off machine, no ability to turn below several hundred RPM with any kind of control. Made me want a MG or WiaD machine. I did not care for the noise of MG machines so I found a half decent WiaD machine, only slight cobbling evident by prevous shop maintenance guys.

I know there was at least one maybe more very detailed chronicling of a conversion over on PM, I believe it was low HP, kept the back gear, beautiful work, owner was happy, worth some time checking out in my view.

Matt if you decide to chuck it all, I will buy your C16J/ 5665 tubes from you if you care to part with em.
 
Read Robby Nowell and tried some of his tricks. No help.

Seems the consensus here is to go the 10hp replacement route. I'm not yet convinced and continue to hope Monarch will say, "Just press this button and everything will be OK".
 
You are looking at easily 1.5-2K to do a replacement VFD system, so I would go through a systematic checklist to see what has failed and try to stay with the original DC motor system. If you look at most VFD lathes they use a 2 speed headstock gearbox to achieve a speed range of around 50-2500 RPM. With a 10 Hp single speed, you are pushing the low end and would have less than 1 Hp to the spindle at low RPM. If there is a way to use the 2 speeds with either a 5Hp or 7.5Hp 3 phase motor, that would be more ideal. Just having read about 10EE conversions, the stock DC system is worth keeping unless it is a major failure.
 
MattM said:
Read Robby Nowell and tried some of his tricks. No help.

Seems the consensus here is to go the 10hp replacement route. I'm not yet convinced and continue to hope Monarch will say, "Just press this button and everything will be OK".
Click to expand...

Maybe things have changed in last 15 years since I last talked to Monarch, but then they did not support tube machines other than selling what parts they had on hand. In other words, they did not work on them, only replaced the system with solid state drive. I don' t think Monarch is going to have the answer, the answer is going to lie in systematic trouble shooting on sight. I don't spend much time (any) on the Monarch board at PM, my machine works, but if I was in Matt's shoes I would read over and over every post starting at post one, book mark everyone related to Modular machines and start ruling out the obvious stuff. The easiest place to start is which tubes light up? Are all the fuses in your main disconnect good, start at the beginning and go from there. It could easily be something as small as corrosion on a disconnect fuse, or snot in the contactors, drag a piece of paper thru those contactors every year or so. There are so many places to look do it systematically from the beginning. Get the schematic and study it till it all makes sense. If the machine worked the other day and doesn't now and you did not see smoke or smell burning its likely something little and maybe intermittent.
 
Monarch was very helpful when I needed help on my 1972 modular machine. They answered questions and tested tubes and speed pots for me.
Ask for Scott, he's the guy that travels around the country repairing Monarchs. Tim is Monarch's tec. guy.

There is a Ton of info over on the PM board.

Hal
 
Talked to Tim at Monarch today. He ran me through some simple tests with my multi-meter. Nothing wrong. Then he said, "try tuning up the speed dial". I did and Bingo everything worked. I must have inadvertently turned the speed to zero. Talk about a simple solution.

I qualify as the Dumbsh.t of the year for not thinking of that.

Now, I learned a lot from this debacle. First let me say the tube was bad. Then let me say the people at Monarch are the greatest. Thank you Tim and Steve. Essentially these machines are mechanically the same as those shipped 80 years ago. However the drive system today is vastly different. Monarch has a limited supply of electrical/electronic parts but once they are gone that's it. Tim suggested that I prepare for the day that my old electronics give up the ghost or get too expensive to resusicate. The machine will be mechanically good probably forever. He said they were shipping one today that is pretty much mechanically the same as the ones shipped 50 years ago. List price? 120k. I'm going to stockpile parts to convert my machine to 3phase VFD. In fact I'm thinking about doing it before I have to. That way I may be able to sell tubes and other parts to partially offset the conversion costs.

From reading this thread and others on HM and PM I have come to the conclusion that the consensus is that the way to go is 3phase VFD and there is nothing to fear. Many have successfully done it . Why shouldn't I?

I gratefully thank all here who shared their wisdom.
 
I am glad it worked out for you and saved you a lot of $$ in not having to invest in a complete new system. Although I have built/installed dozens of VFD control systems and probably helped 2-3X more with their conversions, I am still a proponent of trying to stay with the 10EE drive system you have for the immediate (10-20 years) future. A VFD drive will not give the same low speed performance as the machine's DC drive. The basic 10EE control/drive system is very basic (from a component stand point) and if you factor that the tubes can/have lasted for decades, pretty much everything else in the control system is replaceable at a nominal cost. That is why the tubes for this lathe command such a high price, they have not been made in probably 50+ years. These tubes do come up on eBay and some of the different machinist forums so it may be something to consider having a back up tube. The VFD technology is constantly changing and if a VFD is not used on a regular bases, the capacitors can deteriorate with lack of us, one reason why companies that keep backup supplies either rotate them into to use or have specific procedures to power them up on a regular basis. If you do continue with the stock drive, do not turn the machine on/off frequently during the day, tubes will not last as long with frequent on off thermal cycling, so leave the machine on during your work session, turn it off when you are done for the day.

This previous post is worth reviewing: http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/monarch-10ee.49216/
 
MattM said:
Talked to Tim at Monarch today. ...

From reading this thread and others on HM and PM I have come to the conclusion that the consensus is that the way to go is 3phase VFD and there is nothing to fear. Many have successfully done it . Why shouldn't I?

...
Click to expand...

Good to know Monarch still has great service.

Wise decision. You are going to want a 15hp vfd to power a 10hp motor if you are using 220 single phase input. eBay is your friend here, should find a deal if you are patient. I just seen Dealers Electric has them for $800.

Scrounge the local used jockeys for a three phase motor, should get that for $100 or even better.
 
mksj said:
I am glad it worked out for you and saved you a lot of $$ in not having to invest in a complete new system. Although I have built/installed dozens of VFD control systems and probably helped 2-3X more with their conversions, I am still a proponent of trying to stay with the 10EE drive system you have for the immediate (10-20 years) future. A VFD drive will not give the same low speed performance as the machine's DC drive. The basic 10EE control/drive system is very basic (from a component stand point) and if you factor that the tubes can/have lasted for decades, pretty much everything else in the control system is replaceable at a nominal cost. That is why the tubes for this lathe command such a high price, they have not been made in probably 50+ years. These tubes do come up on eBay and some of the different machinist forums so it may be something to consider having a back up tube. The VFD technology is constantly changing and if a VFD is not used on a regular bases, the capacitors can deteriorate with lack of us, one reason why companies that keep backup supplies either rotate them into to use or have specific procedures to power them up on a regular basis. If you do continue with the stock drive, do not turn the machine on/off frequently during the day, tubes will not last as long with frequent on off thermal cycling, so leave the machine on during your work session, turn it off when you are done for the day.

This previous post is worth reviewing: http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/monarch-10ee.49216/
Click to expand...
Thanks for the tip about leaving the machine on. I do tend to turn it on and off frequently because the blower is annoying.
 
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