# Pm-25mv - Took The Plunge.



## Iceman (Apr 18, 2016)

I'm on House 1.o, shop 1.0.

I have been slowly putting together a small RDT&E lab down in the basement. Climate controlled, clean, and ideal year round tinkering despite the obvious shortfall - its a basement, I have to contend with stairs. This creates a weight limitation which at the moment coincides with my budget/space requirements.

I needed something bigger than a "mini", but smaller than a BP - that left the RF-45/or clones. Or something in the G0704/PM25 size range. I decided that a tool this size will suit me until house 2.o/shop 2.0+. \

I'm a prior aircraft mechanic, current flight engineer, and pilot. I chase summer working in the polar environments. Since 2001 I have been a part of US FIRST robotics - from 2001-2004 as a student, and from there a mentor. I have cut my teeth as a machinist/welder helping to restore an escort/destroyer floating museum. I'm no classically trained machinist or engineer. I'm somewhere in the middle. 

I learned on a BP, and Southbend lathes, I restored a Wade 8a lathe in high school. I'm guessing i'm a bit young and green compared to most. But I think my creative problem solving will eventually get a few chuckles out of most.  

Pictures to come. 

Winter is comming.

-Iceman


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## brino (Apr 18, 2016)

Iceman,

Welcome to the group!

You will find this a very knowledgeable group of people that are very generous with their knowledge.

But please....no talk of winter coming yet....we just finally had a decent weather weekend!

-brino


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## Iceman (Apr 18, 2016)

Fair enough, I did enjoy the warm weather today - but I am just back from north of resolute bay. During the boreal summer I am up there and in Greenland, and in the Austral summer I migrate to Antarctica. So, for me, winter is always coming (not me complaining though - I run hot so I am well suited to the cold). 

Thank you for the welcome. 

-IM


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## jer (Apr 18, 2016)

Welcome Iceman, but I'm ready for spring here.


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## Iceman (Apr 18, 2016)

-Like Christmas. Freight deliveries tomorrow.

I have created a (hopefully) ingenious solution to lower the machine down the stairs.

-IM

With all the cold - I appreciate the warm weather, just glad I have A/C.


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## Iceman (Apr 18, 2016)

R8 drill chuck - GMT. Maybe I learned with poorly maintained tools, but this thing is a piece of art.
I also acquired an R8 ER25 collet chuck/collets, and a 4 inch vise.


(I should make it clear I am not affiliated with GMT) But I did spring on some early presents for myself and adding pictures for others to see should only benefit others looking at similar products. Just don't want to come off as Preachy for one product or another.

-IM


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## jbolt (Apr 19, 2016)

Which FRC team do you mentor for? My daughter did FLL in 2011 and First Robotics 2012-2015. I still mentor and help with manufacturing. FRC Team 971 Spartan Robotics.


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## tweinke (Apr 19, 2016)

We like pictures !


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## Iceman (Apr 19, 2016)

Team 250, and helped to start up team 4508. 

The UPS ref called a foul on the play, delay of game - mill delivery tomorrow now. How thee play with my heart and do not know.

-IM


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## compsurge (Apr 20, 2016)

Looks good. GMT is good stuff. You might want to hold off major purchases from them until November sales.

Enco has a 20% off and free shippig coupon today if you need some cutters.

Since you're doing FRC, you will likely want a boring head (used 2" Criterion) for the 1.124" holes for press fitting the common 1.125" bearings.


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## lpeedin (Apr 20, 2016)

Welcome to the forum! Always glad to hear of another PM brother!  I look forward to hearing your review of your new mill once it is all set up and you use it for a bit.  I looked long and hard at that one, but ultimately went with the new 727 model.  It seems that all of the guys on her lover their PM 25's.  Let us know if you need anything.


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## Silverbullet (Apr 20, 2016)

Hi and a great big welcome, Your starting off with some good tools ,take care of them and they will take care of you. Good luck and stay kool as you seem to like that.


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## Iceman (Apr 21, 2016)

Sore.

 Me and my buddy were able to move it downstairs in one trip assembled. I will not be removing it that way. I built a wooden ramp over the stairs and used a block and tackle set up to belay the mill down the ramp - had a slow stable descent. Machine looks amazing, very well built and cleaned up great. 

Initial impressions and very good. The ways look well finished and all axis's move smoothly throughout their range. The precision adjust on the front for the Z didn't feel like it was doing anything (wasn't doing anything), but I removed and reinstalled the side quill lowering handle and it started to engage. I then realized the precision adjustment turns what looks like a conical shaped brass bushing which activates the side lever. So, I'm going to clean the grease off of it and take a better look at it. Minor gripe but some of the paint flaked off near the base during the set up process. It's like a new car - you try to keep it scratch free until the first scratch occurs. So I guess in a way I'm already passed that.


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## Iceman (Apr 21, 2016)

So I started to disassemble - partly to learn more about the design and partly to figure out what is causing the notchy less than buttery smooth precision quill movement. I'll clean it and inspect the gears, relube with moly and reinstall - gears need a break in period I understand but catchy and rough early on should be inspected. 

Also I noticed some slight imperfections on the casting on the mill table rift side pocket.


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## Iceman (Apr 21, 2016)

I can be a perfectionist, not an issue here. It's a machine tool - not expecting 100k performance and features - but nothing says I can't expect smooth operation either. Not overly concerned with casting defects as they appear superficial and only in the one spot. 

One new gripe- the removal and installation of tooling - I think a power draw bar is a future mod. The spanner wrench that came in the little tool box is a tool blank with no protrusions - so no way to use it. I felt like a spanner until I realized the issue - no fault of mine. 1% rule is in effect (1% smarter than the tool).


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## Iceman (Apr 21, 2016)

Going to the metal mart for some steel- I need to make a level able machine base - I want to raise it a few inches and it rocks enough to through a concert.


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## tweinke (Apr 21, 2016)

Keep us posted!


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## Iceman (Apr 21, 2016)

Womp womp - no t nuts that fit the 12mm table. I don't know why but I assumed they were 1/2 or 5/8. Oops. Online metals sent the wrong stock so instead of some a2 square tool steel from which I could have made t nuts they sent me A2 drill rod, not into rely useless for another project but on this case- it does not help.


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## Iceman (Apr 21, 2016)

Ahh - the website for PM states 1/2 T-slot size. That explains my confusion. I also fixed the spanner wrench by using it properly.

Z-Axis precision feed was smoothed out by removing the pin that is installed just aft of the precision adjustment knob on the right side - this pin keeps the shaft in the head and engaged - if there are any burrs on this is like there were on mine this could certainly be the culprit.

-After deburring/smoothing the pin was reinstalled (in case there is any confusion)

-IM


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## Iceman (Apr 21, 2016)

The machine is broken in, cleaned, lubed, and inspected. Started the initial tramming and already very happy with how close things are out of the crate. I may have to use some unapproved "t" nut substitutes to mount the vice to make real T-Nuts, but be a good first project on it. 

IM


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## wrmiller (Apr 21, 2016)

If I recall, I basically just took a file to my half inch t-nuts and made them fit. Didn't take too long.


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## Iceman (Apr 21, 2016)

What hold down kits are people using for the 12mm T-Slots?


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## wrmiller (Apr 21, 2016)

I think Little Machine Shop (LMS) has some?


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## Iceman (Apr 21, 2016)

I just ordered a 7/16" inch set, 11.09ish mm - from HHIP.  I guess we will see - for the price I'm not expecting anything magical, but at least it should get me mostly up and running.


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## compsurge (Apr 21, 2016)

The $60ish set from Amazon or Enco. BTW Enco has 20% off and free shipping today!


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## Iceman (Apr 21, 2016)

HHIP 3900-2112 steel 58pc clamping kit for 7/16 table slot 49 bucks with prime shipping on amazon. So, 1$ more from amazon but I know I'll get it by Saturday. No experience with Enco. I got worried that I missed a deal but I don't think I did too bad. Thank you for the heads up though! 

-IC


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## lpeedin (Apr 22, 2016)

I have purchased a few things from HHIP and have been very pleased with what I received.  Their shipping is quick and the products have been good.


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## Iceman (Apr 22, 2016)

1018 CR T-nut blanks. I figure I have the mill might as well start using it.

I chose 3/8 24UNF for the threading - biggest size I felt comfortable with the width of top of the nut and the fine threading for increased holding strength. Feel free to tell me why this is a bad call. I try to learn something new everyday. 

I see the forum likes to rotate images now. IM


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## compsurge (Apr 23, 2016)

I'd use 3/8-16 since that is the standard thread for clamping sets. You can also get 3/8-16 threaded rod at Home Depot in a pinch if you need some custom height clamping setups.


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## Iceman (Apr 23, 2016)




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## Iceman (Apr 23, 2016)

How have I gone this long without having this in my day to day life?


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## Iceman (Apr 23, 2016)

#love

The pictures looks like I milled off the logo due to lighting - at least up to this point the vise has no apprentice marks.


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## Iceman (Apr 23, 2016)

For anyone curious - I was using a 1/2 inch 4 flute roughing end mil with a TIALN coating - with a DOC of .3" at 1200 rpm. I'm not a machinist - but this worked beautifully on the PM-25 on 1018 CR steel. This makes me unbelievably happy. I probably always played it ultra conservative while I was learning on the BP 16 years ago, but I'm happy to take my time - far exceeding my expectations so far. Not production speed but when everything you make is a "prototype" - this thing rocks.


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## Iceman (Apr 23, 2016)

thr HHIP arrived today (didn't I order them last night?) looks like a great set! The t nuts look like they will work fine - however I will continue to fabricate a matching pair of precision T nuts designed for this table.


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## stupoty (Apr 23, 2016)

RegisG said:


> PM1030





compsurge said:


> I'd use 3/8-16 since that is the standard thread for clamping sets. You can also get 3/8-16 threaded rod at Home Depot in a pinch if you need some custom height clamping setups.



Yeah threaded rod comes in handy for a bit of extra reach on an odd clamping situation.

Also for my self I've found it very handy to have Tee nuts with a range of threads for using smaller toe clamps that I have made and for fixing parts down through holes in the part, so I have 1/2" Tee nuts with M6 M8 M10 and M12 threads, come in quite handy.  

Stuart


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## Iceman (Apr 24, 2016)




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## Iceman (Apr 24, 2016)

Went with the 3/8x16 - much better than how I had the vise mounted before, although the washers I used are a tad too large.


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## Subwayrocket (Jul 12, 2016)

By how much did you end up raising you mill with the base you were making ?  Today I am welding on leveler legs to my base I built, I can weld them so it raises the PM940 anywhere from a min of 1.5" or up to 3" depending on how I do it. How much do people generally raise PM25,45,932,940 mills ? I am only 5'9" . Thanks much


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## bartives (Jul 12, 2016)

My base raised my PM-45 by 6 1/4 inches, table height is now 41 inches.  Helps to limit bending over and prevent back pain when running mill.  Highly recommend you get table as high as possible, it will make working with your mill much more enjoyable.


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## Subwayrocket (Jul 12, 2016)

bartives said:


> My base raised my PM-45 by 6 1/4 inches, table height is now 41 inches.  Helps to limit bending over and prevent back pain when running mill.  Highly recommend you get table as high as possible, it will make working with your mill much more enjoyable.


 Thank you !   How tall are you , i'm only 5'9"  ...I can flip the parts over and get about 5-6" of raise , just don't want to raise it 6" if that's what works for a 6 foot tall guy .
Again, thanks much for responding, I appreciate it !


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## JR49 (Jul 12, 2016)

Subwayrocket said:


> just don't want to raise it 6" if that's what works for a 6 foot tall guy .


            Subway,   I will give you the same advise that I was given about a year ago, when I was building the base for my PM 932.  Stand up straight with your arms and shoulders hanging as they normally would, have someone measure from the floor to the middle of your elbow (where it bends). That is the height you want the table to be. I was a little leery about putting it that high, but it has been perfect for me.  Good luck with the new mill,  JR49


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## Subwayrocket (Jul 12, 2016)

JR49 said:


> Subway,   I will give you the same advise that I was given about a year ago, when I was building the base for my PM 932.  Stand up straight with your arms and shoulders hanging as they normally would, have someone measure from the floor to the middle of your elbow (where it bends). That is the height you want the table to be. I was a little leery about putting it that high, but it has been perfect for me.  Good luck with the new mill,  JR49


 I just took a measurement,  and coincidentally , that is the height I've had the table of my drill press at ...and it's comfortable for me ...so it looks like that advice works.
Thanks much , I appreciate it !


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