# 1-2-3 Block Recommendations?



## Uglydog

I've been using some unhardened 123 blocks I made from cold rolled on my mill.
They've worked well enough for most set ups. However, I been wishing for something far more accurate for inspection. 

Yes, fabbing some from this chunk of 1" O1 tool steel is option, but in the absence of a grinder I don't think I will be pleased with my results. 

I'm good with used precision shop made and import. Ebay can be problematic for precision instruments/tooling. 
Does anyone have recommendations for a reliable source for precision 123 blocks? 
Or, have someone have extra good used ones they want to sell?
Note: I don't have a jig bore? Thus, I don't need silly accurate/precise. 

Daryl
MN


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## royesses

I have this set from LMS $29.95 .0001 in all measurements and ground hardened:
http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2881&category=


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## tomh

Try to find a set that the bolts will  fit through the unthreaded holes. There are a lot of sets out there on ebay and through some importers that the bolts don't fit. I have a set that I got from enco and  not being able to use the included bolts they have very limited uses.
If you can talk with the seller to make sure that they do otherwise you are wasting your money.


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## Billh50

you will find sets with through holes, some through and some tapped, as well as solid ones. I like the ones with both threaded and through holes. These can be bolted to angle blocks or flat plates for various setups. Most all of them are accurate as for size.

here is a set with both through and tapped holes.
http://usaknifemaker.com/123-block-set.html


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## chips&more

I have collected several 1,2,3 block sets through the years. And can probably count on one hand the times I have used just one set. And I’m sure it was not for the reference of any of its size measurements. Can’t explain why someone needs them and why I do not? I am in my toy house just about every day too. However on a similar note. I do have and use daily, parallels of various sizes. I have many sets of them and use them. I have working sets that I don’t mind seeing a scratch or two on them. And then I have like new sets that I baby. I even have the spring wavy ones that come in handy…Dave


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## rgray

The cheap ones are plenty accurate. They are $12.00 a set from CDOC. They won't bolt together but I've never needed that as I have angle plates.
I'd be happy with 123's with no holes but they are more money, seems backwards.
I'm usually using them as spacers on the surface grinder, and I keep one with the lathe and use it to square the tool post off the lathe spindle, and even off the chuck face at times...they are way more accurate than needed for that.


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## sanddan

I have 2 sets of 123 blocks and use them often. I'd love a set of 246 blocks also.


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## Uglydog

tomh said:


> Try to find a set that the bolts will  fit through the unthreaded holes. There are a lot of sets out there on ebay and through some importers that the bolts don't fit. I have a set that I got from enco and  not being able to use the included bolts they have very limited uses.
> If you can talk with the seller to make sure that they do otherwise you are wasting your money.


 
tomh,
Thank you for the reminder! This is exactly what I was hoping for was some input before I drop some $ on stuff I cannot use.
Daryl
MN


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## Uglydog

Interesting short video from Suburban Tool. ..





Daryl
MN


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## 12bolts

royesses said:


> I have this set from LMS $29.95 .0001 in all measurements and ground hardened:
> http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2881&category=


From the website _"The blocks have 23 holes through them. Five are threaded 3/8-16 NC, and the other through holes are 5/16" diameter." _What is the point of that? It just makes them as useful as a solid block!
edit Although I guess they are lighter........

Cheers Phil


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## wawoodman

Does drilling them out relieve stress before grinding, or something?


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## royesses

12bolts said:


> From the website _"The blocks have 23 holes through them. Five are threaded 3/8-16 NC, and the other through holes are 5/16" diameter." _What is the point of that? It just makes them as useful as a solid block!
> edit Although I guess they are lighter........
> 
> Cheers Phil


I have not come up with a reason for 3/8 threaded holes with 5/16" through holes or a reasonable excuse for making them that way. Seems that all the Asian blocks are that way. I did watch that Bailey video last year hoping to find out why, but no such luck. I use them as spacers, cheaper than solid blocks.

Roy


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## Billh50

not sure why they have 5/16 thru holes instead of 3/8. probably because they can use the same drill for both thru and threaded holes. But the threaded holes are handy at times to bolt an angle block from behind with a 3/8 screw so no screw head is in the way.  The thru holes can be used to bolt it to a plate when the screw head would not be in the way.


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## Uglydog

On my shop made 123s I've found that my counter bored through holes handy to bolt the block to the table.
Because I have tapped right angle blocks I've scraped in I haven't bolted the 123s together.
However, I've found the tapped holes in the 123s handy for bolting small parts to the blocks.
Seems like I've been doing more mill work that doesn't hold in a vise.
The 123 also work well on my RT as well as the mill table.


Daryl
MN


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## EmilioG

Suburban Tool has a value line of import blocks and other tools. Must be well made if ST are putting their name on them?  The ST value line 123 blocks do not bolt together though. $25.00

The USA ST 123 block set is $111.00 plus shipping. These are nice. Moore Tool 123 blocks are awesome also.  Where do they sell new Moore Tools 1 2 3 blocks?


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## Profkanz

Uglydog said:


> Interesting short video from Suburban Tool. ..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Daryl
> MN


I like the Moore set a lot. No protruding bolt heads. Sometimes a small bolted up angle plate is just what is needed.


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## Profkanz

I'm sure the ones where the bolts don't go through are made on CNC mill and all holes drilled with a 5/16 drill. Some holes are then tapped 3/8-16.
Some programmer in China who had no as to what these were for should have used 3rd tool for the clearance holes.


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## petertha

I'm no expert but my gut tells me someone from Knockoff 123 BlockCo figured it was less expensive to drill all pilot hole size & tap every odd one. A) without fully understanding how they were intended to be used or B) maybe just pulling the winky-winky on people (like me!) who didn't know better. I fully admit buying these & figuring I must not be using them properly. The Suburban video was valuable in highlighting this point - completely useless if the intent is to stack & bolt them together. Yes they knockoffs, yes are still useful, yes they are accurate & reasonably priced. Its just that they don't perform this function which in hindsight for me would be very desirable. Why they continue to be sold in this configuration many years later would be a great thesis topic. Maybe the herd mentality (speaking as one from the herd): low cost & misinformed criteria. Until either/or dissipates, why change the drill bit  

I did notice offshore blocks that DO have clearance + tap hole combinations like the classic bolt-together blocks. For the most part they are sold in 'matched' sets of 2. Not sure why exactly. Makes me suspicious. Even on those you have to read the fine print in terms of the hole patterns & some do a lousy job elaborating & properly detailing. Either the middlemen distributers themselves don't understand what they are flogging, or its broken English trick to make you just throw the dice & buy them thinking 'logically they would work this way'.


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## petertha

Example from Travers. Nothing hinting of the through bolt capability in product description. But if you 'believe' the picture....
http://www.traverscanada.com/1-2-3-2-4-6-blocks/p/466271/?keyword=1-2-3 blocks

This one  shows the stack up & hints at that capability
http://www.traverscanada.com/universal-1-2-3-block-set/p/57-020-413/


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## EmilioG

Yes, they cost more than import blocks, but these are so well made and bolt together perfectly.
Suburban Tool Precision USA 1 2 3 blocks.  They use 5/16-18 SCHS, 1" long.


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## Reeltor

I do love well made precision tooling.  Everything Suburban Tool makes is really nice.  I just can't justify the cost for the low tolerance stuff I (i pretend to) machine.


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## EmilioG

I never pay top dollar for any of my tools. I always find a good deal somewhere.


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## scwhite

tomh said:


> Try to find a set that the bolts will  fit through the unthreaded holes. There are a lot of sets out there on ebay and through some importers that the bolts don't fit. I have a set that I got from enco and  not being able to use the included bolts they have very limited uses.
> If you can talk with the seller to make sure that they do otherwise you are wasting your money.


Brown & Sharp 1-2-3 blocks have the tapped hole in them I have two sets 
    I love them


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## Andyjb

I buy a lot of my tools second hand i have a guy near me deals in good quality used tools from companies that have shut down some is ex military very good value it some time pay's to shop around/


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## gi_984

Second the Suburban  Tools 1-2-3 blocks.  Yes, they are expensive but will last a lifetime if cared for.


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## Andyjb

The Suburban tool's one look very nice i have got stuff from the little machine shop in the past they are a nice firm to deal with also some time buy from US ebay i have a Atlas 10 lathe love the US made machine's and tool's but the post to  the UK  kills it.   Just got a Rhodes shaper machines made in the USA and England back in the old day's were made to last now it all come from the over sea's.
Love the forum some great stuff on here have spent a lot of time just reading the post i'm a new boy on here but hope to pick a few tips from you guy's my main love is steam engines big and small.


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## KBeitz

I just bought the cheap sets and re drilled the holes with good bits...


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## Cadillac

One thing I've notice a difference between offshore and American made ones is the details. The hole clearances like said and the worst thing is crowning around all the holes. Blue up a surface plate and rub. Every hole will have a ring around it and nothing surrounding it. I have both solid a ones with holes. Precise ones and shop ones.


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## Forty Niner

KBeitz said:


> I just bought the cheap sets and re drilled the holes with good bits...



I was thinking about drilling the holes out to body size as well.  The tapped holes in my cheap set are 3/8" x 16tpi.  The untapped holes measure around 0.350" (not 5/16" as others have noted)  So the holes are only about 0.025" undersized. 1

So KBletz, how difficult were they to drill?  Did you destroy any drill bits?


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## BaronJ

royesses said:


> I have this set from LMS $29.95 .0001 in all measurements and ground hardened:
> http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2881&category=



Some time ago I bought a similar set from MSC for £19.99 + vat here in the UK.
Made in China of course.  I was quoted well over £120 for a Moore and Wright set.


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## Winegrower

I use these blocks way more than I ever thought I would.   So much so I now have three sets, one with holes.   Never have used the holes.


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## P. Waller

B&S set $80.00
Not worth making them for that little money
http://www.penntoolco.com/brown-sha...MI08jKo4_N3gIVywOGCh3m8Al6EAYYBiABEgLn4_D_BwE


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## KBeitz

Forty Niner said:


> I was thinking about drilling the holes out to body size as well.  The tapped holes in my cheap set are 3/8" x 16tpi.  The untapped holes measure around 0.350" (not 5/16" as others have noted)  So the holes are only about 0.025" undersized. 1
> 
> So KBletz, how difficult were they to drill?  Did you destroy any drill bits?



I'm cheap... I use cement bits to drill anything thats hard.
When you buy them new they are not sharp. Put and edge 
on them before you try. They also will catch and break if
you'r not careful.


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## rwm

rgray said:


> The cheap ones are plenty accurate. They are $12.00 a set from CDOC. They won't bolt together but I've never needed that as I have angle plates.
> I'd be happy with 123's with no holes but they are more money, seems backwards.
> I'm usually using them as spacers on the surface grinder, and I keep one with the lathe and use it to square the tool post off the lathe spindle, and even off the chuck face at times...they are way more accurate than needed for that.



CDOC is the Colorado Dept of Corrections. I have no plans to be in a position to use their blocks....
Robert


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## rgray

rwm said:


> CDOC is the Colorado Dept of Corrections.



Ooopps just the one finger typing or a little dyslexia. CDOC just rolls of the tongue so much nicer than CDCO. But If you want machine tools CDCO may be the preferable website.


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## hman

rgray said:


> Ooopps just the one finger typing or a little dyslexia. CDOC just rolls of the tongue so much nicer than CDCO.


C'mon now ... you weren't typing with your tongue, were you ?


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## Bob Korves

KBeitz said:


> I'm cheap... I use cement bits to drill anything thats hard.
> When you buy them new they are not sharp. Put and edge
> on them before you try. They also will catch and break if
> you'r not careful.


Has anybody checked them before and after drilling to see how much the geometry moved?  My guess is that the case hardened drilled blocks might be susceptible to that.  If not, I might try it, and I do have a surface grinder if it goes bad, though then my grinder and my skills will be the real issues...


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## Cadillac

I agree the blocks will move. Problem is they are never oversized so any grinding will make them just set up blocks. Which I can’t tell you if I ever used them as a gauge block other than parallels.


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## Bob Korves

If the blocks were .996 x 1.995 x 2.997, it would make no difference to me at all.  If they were ever used where dimensions actually matter, then the actual numbers could be used, just makes the math slightly busier.  The bigger issue is whether I could keep them accurately square and parallel to within a few tenths overall and with closely true 90 degree corners and parallel faces.  Not as easy as it might sound...


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