# South Bend 9A gut check



## chunkstyle (Mar 31, 2020)

Hello all.

I recently picked up an older south bend 9A lathe. Looks to be a 1946 from the documentation and serial #. One of the things that has been nagging me is the infamous 'ridge' it has on the front way starting about 9' from HS and goes for about 6-7". The heavy wear area, correct? You can catch a nail on it here but only in this area. Laying a thin .001' piece of shim stock along the ridge flushed the ridge out and a nail won't catch any longer.
Using the saddle lock test, if I turn the lock from tight to where I can move the saddle the bed length (4 1/2') takes about a skinny 1/8 turn.
Finally, I put a dial indicator on the front left portion of the saddle and placed the dial over the flat, unworn portion of the TS flat way area. The set up was done as close to the HS as possible, dial zero'd out and run down the length of bed. In the ridge area of the front V way the dial showed a .004" raise on the dial. Odd to me as a shim of .001 flushed out the v way ridge to the wear portion of the V way but that's what the needle repeatedly showed.

The reason I post all this is I'm starting to break the machine down for a felt and cleaning. I don't know enough to know what's within a reasonable amount of wear from experience. Don't want to invest in a full blown paint resto if the machine if too worn to warrant the effort.

Attached is the new tool with the apron off for cleaning and re-felting.

Any insights or recommendations from those with more experience here would be appreciated. That would be most everyone here I would guess.


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## chunkstyle (Mar 31, 2020)

Whoops, should have mentioned the lathe is not bolted down or leveled, simply setting on the original owners bench. 
Thanks


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## DavidR8 (Mar 31, 2020)

I think the most commonly used means to measure wear on the ways is by mounting an indicator on the tailstock because it travels on separate ways which are not subject to the same degree of wear as the ways for the carriage.
Other more experienced folks will chime in here too


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## brino (Mar 31, 2020)

hi @chunkstyle ,

To me, the proof is also in what level of precision you need.

I'd suggest you finish the clean-out of errant chips, ensure all the lubrication passages are clean and "wicked" as appropriate, and then re-assemble and test.

Centre the tailstock as best you can, then cut a bar between centres.
How much taper do you end up with?
Is it too much for the projects you want to do?

Much time and money can be spent in the pursuit of perfection......when really it is impossible to reach.

-brino


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## chunkstyle (Mar 31, 2020)

Thanks for the replies.

As far as precision, I’m not planning on making airplane parts. I m  as kee we a living with a wood shop and have an occasional buggered up thread to fix/replace or a bushing to have made. Hoping to learn to do some of these things and more myself. Do you clamp the dial to the TS and measure the saddle rise and fall or measure the front way of concern?

What may not be a big deal for wear in the wood world may not cut it in the metal machining world. I just didn’t know what was too worn to qualify as beyond an effort.
I’ll continue cleaning and re-felting. May and do the bar test when it’s put back together. I just didn’t know what was ballpark unacceptable wear to warrant going further than general clean up a and felt replacement.
Thanks for the advice. It’s appreciated.


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## matthewsx (Mar 31, 2020)

I'm with Brino here, you have a 75-year-old machine that has earned every last bit of wear (experience) that it has. Put it back together and make some chips, that's the only way you'll know if it will be accurate enough for you.

Chances are it will work as good or better than what you could buy new for what you spent on it. For me I still haven't gotten good enough to think my 100-year-old Seneca Falls lathe isn't accurate enough. Even if you eventually decide you need better you will learn an awful lot making the best parts you can with the lathe you have. It's not like you're deciding if you want to buy it, that decision was made already so you might as well get your money's worth.

If it pleases you to give it a paint job by all means do so. Old South Bends seem to carry a premium so making it look good is probably not time wasted no matter what.

Cheers,

John


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## chunkstyle (Mar 31, 2020)

Thanks Matthew. Sounds like the real test will be in the cut. Not unlike wood machinery.
 I grew up around Seneca Falls, by the way. Passed the old manufacturing building regularly. Knew about the treadle powered woodworking equipment they made. Didn’t realize they made a line of metal lathes. Just read about them. Learn something new. They look really nice. Gotta love old machinery.

I’ll soldier on and continue the pull down. Had some post purchase worry I guess. Watched the Tubal Caine videos where he goes over inspecting lathes. He mentions some wear is unavoidable. I expected some. Started worrying it may have been to much.

saddle and TS shoe no ridge wear by the way. Came with a multitude of 3-4 jaw chucks, drill chucks, cutting bits, reamers, etc... guess I should worry less about ‘usability’ and more on how to use. Reading my brains out here. Looks like a good 6” machinist level is on my shopping list.


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## matthewsx (Mar 31, 2020)

The level is nice but not absolutely necessary. Really the only time twist/taper comes into play is when turning long parts, most of the stuff I do isn't long enough to worry about. Get is set up as close as you can without going overboard and start learning how to use it.

Cheers,

John


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## silverhawk (Mar 31, 2020)

If you need it in good shape, you can find a machinist who can scrape the ways in for you. I side with Brino, though. Keep it together for now, and try. First things to do are to get a bar of round stock that is almost as big as you can and center drill the ends. Put it between centers, and check the headstock side with a dual caliper on the carriage. Then flip the bar and check the tail stock side. 

Bring the tail stock into alignment that way. Then try to turn a bar down. You can then measure SOME of the wear by measuring at regular points along the bar. You don't need it level, just bolt down the headstock end first, and slip a bar or ball bearing under the tailstock to allow it to roll front or back. Don't bolt the tailstock down, the casting should relax into its original shape and give a temporary level. 

joe


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## brino (Mar 31, 2020)

chunkstyle said:


> Reading my brains out here.



if you need any more.....
There are several versions of the Southbend book "How to Run a Lathe" in the downloads section here:
Southbend, How to Run a Lathe
(I think you need to be a paying member to help support the server costs to access downloads)

It covers parts, operations, tool bits, etc.

-brino

EDIT Here's a newer version:

SB How To Run a Lathe - 1966 27th Edition (56).pdf


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## SLK001 (Mar 31, 2020)

Don't worry about the little wear you have.  Clean it, refelt it and start making things.  You can still make good parts.


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## pjf134 (Apr 2, 2020)

As you learn how to use the lathe you can work around the difference in wear, many machinist do that in shops. The wear is mostly near the chuck on most machines. You can use a longer piece of stock to get to the spot that is most useful. If your gearbox works just clean it up because it can be a pain to take apart and put together. The shafts have tapered pins and mine were facing the wrong way to get out because my gearbox was frozen up and took awhile to free up to take apart. My whole 1968 SB9A was rusted and nothing moved, but all gears and wear parts were like new.
Paul


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## chunkstyle (Apr 2, 2020)

Thanks everybody.

In for a penny, etc..  I decided to go ahead and throw in a paint job. Cleaned up the oil ways and cleaned up the old crud. Paint on the sunny side is so-so. chips easily and there's always a bit of dirt under it. Not the best prep. Slightly better than a tractor. I'll leave the wear worry for now and concentrate on the rehab. Appreciate the SB instruction book link. 
 Apron progress so far. Thought I'd have more time to undertake the project with the work stoppage but I'm managing to stay busy in the shop so I'tll be catch as catch can. 
Using  lacquer thinner,  wire wheels, Die grind sander disks. Don't have any chemical stripper so it will be softening with the thinner and elbow grease for now. 
Half nuts were fairly worn so they were sent out for rebuild while the apron work gets done.

Again, the help here is appreciated.


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## chunkstyle (Apr 2, 2020)

If I get within the front porch of your lath, PJ, I'll be happy with my efforts. THat lathe and bench look really nice to my eyes. Why the Link belt? Was there any advantage to that type over a traditional leather belt or something you had on hand?


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## Liljoebrshooter (Apr 2, 2020)

Hey pjf134, is that a Citation in the background of your pic?

Joe


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## brino (Apr 2, 2020)

chunkstyle said:


> Why the Link belt? Was there any advantage to that type over a traditional leather belt or something you had on hand?



There are a few advantages with link belts:

1) reduced vibration since the links can shift a little they can help compensate for some mis-alignment
2) you do NOT have to remove your lathe spindle bearings and the stack of shims to put it on
3) you can keep 10 feet of this "on the shelf" and replace nearly any belt you need to (in the same belt width)

-brino


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## pjf134 (Apr 2, 2020)

The first pic is when I first got the lathe and picket it up with the 94 s10 and unloaded it by myself. The 84 Citation 2 was my everyday driver back in 2011. Both chevy's are gone now and have been replaced. Somewhere in the photo gallery here is some pics as I was rebuilding the lathe. The link belt on the lathe works great and it takes about 2 minutes to install and is quiet and does not slip. The motor belt has to be a v belt so it will slip if something goes wrong. I did work about 2 hours a day for about 4 or 5 weeks to get it to that shape and the drawers were later on. The lathe is dirty now because of use. I had to take the gearbox all apart because the oil dried up in it and was stuck with the taper pins going the wrong way too.
Paul
In the photo gallery 115 are some pics of the resto.


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## tobnpr (Apr 14, 2020)

Takes a lot of wear to really affect diameter variance due to tool drop.
Raised this question about mine (barely visible ridge, I can feel it- like yours) on PM a few years back when I acquired it.
I forget the math involved...but it takes a lot of carriage drop to get to big numbers.

Mag base on the tailstock, dial indicator on the front left corner of the saddle, both tight to the headstock.
Preload the indicator, zero out and begin cranking towards the far end of the bed. This will "map" the bed for you.

More important to make sure the bed is straight with no twist (machinist level) and tailstock is properly aligned.

Bed wear/tool drop is only a factor when turning longer lengths- and can be compensated for as mentioned once you learn your machine- where you need to hold tighter tolerances.


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## chunkstyle (Apr 29, 2020)

Hi all. 
Just an update on the progress of the lathe. Started in on the apron first and found the half nut threads were pretty worn. Sent them out to be rebuilt and the results look pretty good to my eyes. I disassembled everything, cleaned, oiled, re-wicked, reassembled and painted. the thread dial is off and being re-painted. 




Saddle is getting disassembled now and I've determined the cross feed nut also needs to be replaced. Threaded the nut onto the screw by hand and checking for slop and there is noticeable play on any section of the screw.


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## chunkstyle (Apr 29, 2020)

While I was working on the apron I was ruminating on building a new bench. I decided to simply augment the original  cabinet with some drawers. 
The original cabinet is built between two cast iron trestle style legs that are connected by 1.25" steel rods running between them and thru bolted. It's not elegant but is built like a bomb shelter. The previous owner built his cabinetry around the steel rods and left a large cavity between the cabinet and tabletop. I simply built a chest of drawers to fit into the cavity and stow all the tooling that came with the lathe.


The left bottom drawer needs a drawer pull. All the material was left over plywood from a current job I'm doing in the wood shop.


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## chunkstyle (Apr 29, 2020)

Here's some of the stuff that's getting stowed. I'll be looking at other work spaces on the forum for getting more organized as a work space but for now it's just being used for convenient storage.


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## chunkstyle (Apr 29, 2020)

more stuff...


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## chunkstyle (Apr 29, 2020)

Plus a bunch of bits, reamers and taps. Spent many evenings cleaning up a box of tapered shank drill bits. All of this came out of an unheated garage so it was beginning to haze with rust but most everything cleaned up nicely with elbow grease. 
I'll have to come up with some proper storage cabinetry for it all. Here's the bits in a shoe box with a nice coat of oil..


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## chunkstyle (Apr 29, 2020)

My current problem is getting the gear box mounting screws out of the gear box. Tried using an 18V makita impact driver but no luck. They won't budge. I would usually try heat but that doesn't seem to be an option here. Anyone have any suggestions on getting these machine screws to break free? Any help will be appreciated.
Thanks again.


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## silverhawk (Apr 30, 2020)

Your usual go-to should help. Remember, those are taper pins holding the shafts in place, so they only come out and go in on one direction. If either side gets peened over, they become harder to remove. With heat, go slow and heat (it doesn't have to be much) the whole casting. Make sure the casting is solidly supported, and a good whack in the right direction should get it going on a pin punch. I was very worried about breaking my casting, but ultimately had to resort to heat with a 3lb hammer. Do not miss and hit the casting. 

joe


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## chunkstyle (Apr 30, 2020)

Thanks for the reply Joe.

My description of the problem may have been muddled.
Actually, what I'm getting hung up on are the three mounting screws that attach the gear box to the lathe bed. The screws are located on the top of the lathe bed next to the HS and screw into the top of the gear box attaching it to the lathe bed. They take a flat head screwdriver and my Impact driver won't budge any of them.


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## silverhawk (Apr 30, 2020)

Ah. Use something to lift against the gear box, then, as the weight of the box compounds the problem. You might need to soak it for a few days in break-free juice like PB Blaster. WD-40 is small potatoes when breaking something loose that has been locked in place for decades. If you need a good home made juice and you have some automatic transmission fluid and acetone, mix a small amount of 50%/50% (the shelf life of the mixture is poor), then fill the holes above the screw heads and let it soak through. Just remember, paint and acetone don't mix well. It is nearly as effective as Krill oil.

joe


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## silverhawk (Apr 30, 2020)

And by lift, not lifting the whole thing. Maybe 20lbs of lift. The intent is to reduce the weight of the gear box on the threads. Once the screws have soaked for a few days, use a hand held impact screw driver (make sure it is set to loosen and not tighten), and a few good whacks with a hammer should break it. Once it starts turning, it becomes a little difficult to hold it up while screws are removed. A second pair of hands is always helpful. 

joe


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## chunkstyle (May 8, 2020)

Another update...

Had battles with the saddle. The cross feed collar was a real stubborn P.I.A. to unscrew with the pin wrench. Things were said, things were done. The collar gave way and the screw is now out on the bench for cleaning/inspecting. The cross feed collar's pin hole was already wallered out from what I guess is a previous disassembly. I've added to it as it was a real grunt with heat to get it to break free and unscrew. I'm thinking of using 'Never Seize' when reassembling here.


There is a gap between handle and dial of the cross feed. The resto book is saying to add a shim washer. I'm guessing most are using shim stock to make a washer out of? It's what I plan to do unless there is a simpler alternative.

A similar amount of wear can be found on the saddle ways as there was on the bed ways. At least it looks consistent along the length.

Hope everyone is staying safe and healthy!


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## chunkstyle (May 8, 2020)

My plan is to get the saddle ship shape and reassembled and move on to the spindle. I'll feel much better attacking the three gear box mounting screws with my newly arrived impact drive and hammer with the head stock removed and out of harms way.


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## chunkstyle (Apr 27, 2022)

A quick update with a quick question for anyone.

I've gotten the apron, saddle, spindle and gear box disassembled, cleaned, felted and re-wicked, re-assembled.
New cross feed nut on the  and half nuts.
Lots of hardened grease in the gearbox. Scrubbed all gears in parts washer till shiny again, oiled. Ditto back gears. Bed was power washed. Rack was de-greased and oiled.
New brass plugs for the cross feed dials. Old ones were missing/went missing.
The cross feed dial had a gap of about .015". Shimmed the feed screw and now the gap is gone. Slop in the cross feed screw is now .004'. Good enough?
At this point I'm just going to clean and re-felt the countershaft assembly. Clean up electric motor switch contacts. Throw a belt on and start learning. Problem  is  I found with the countershaft and bearing  galled up about 5/16" in from the large pulley end when I disassembled.
	

		
			
		

		
	







I'm wondering if this galling is recent or 40 years old? I'm thinking it may not be the worst thing if this doesn't get fixed right away? What's the worst that can happen if it's cleaned, re-assembled and run?


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## DavidR8 (Apr 27, 2022)

I'm not an expert by any stretch but I'd make sure there are no offending burrs on the countershaft axle or the bore and then I'd run it. If I recall correctly from my countershaft assembly the bearing surface is quite wide, at least an inch so there's still plenty of surface to bear the load.
Again, I'm not an expert....


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## SLK001 (Apr 27, 2022)

The galling is probably from oil starvation sometime in your lathe's life.  Stone off any high spots on the inside of the pulley and do likewise for the shaft.  If you keep it properly oiled, you'll won't have any problems.


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## tq60 (Apr 27, 2022)

Shaft looks good, other not so much.

Oil starvation and maybe dirt.

Belt also way too tight.

Cast iron softer than shaft so shaft won.

Polish shaft.

Many options for other side.

Creative idea...

Shift gears to windmill...?

Aermotor windmill heads A version had poured in Babbet.

B version has a slide in bearing sleeve, 2 versions.

One babbitt, other a resin material.

The housing is worn out bigger with real rough spots, perfect for epoxy to grab.

Some good epoxy, not the 5 minute cheap stuff but the good cures very hard stuff.

I suspect there may be something like brass shavings that are suitable for bushing like support and softer than steel that could be mixed in with the epoxy.

A dummy shaft could be made along with a plastic liner that both would fit the hole to become the mold.

You could first make certain no high spots inside.

Experiment with epoxy and brass powder/shaving mix on scrap, you may need to use a die grinder with carbide cutter to make the chips.

Experiment with filling with tooth paste, smear into grooves then work in liner and shaft.

Once you get the paste correct, and the filling figured out, clean hole with acetone then rub the paste into the grooves and get it coated well.

Insert the plastic liner then dummy shaft.

Let cure for a week.

Remove parts then with file carefully shape the epoxy, only enough for shaft to fit properly.

Remember to use a good quality correct belt so it can work without being too tight.

Good correct belt should not need too much force.

Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk


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## chunkstyle (Apr 28, 2022)

Thanks everyone. 
Kinda hoping that was the case as the bore grooved bore does have plenty of good length left in it. Thanks for the repair idea tq60. If it really bugs me I'll have a good idea of what can be done to do a repair. 

For the first time I'm beginning to see some daylight and hope to have it running by this weekend. Have some electrical cord/ motor connection ugly to clean up. 

Thanks for the advice, much appreciated.


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