# Fowler edge finder



## GunsOfNavarone (Dec 16, 2019)

So I have been using a Mitutoyo manual after finder. I'll tell you, that just doesn't work for me. Maybe it's a missing chromosome...I don't know. I moved on to an Electronic Fowler edge finder and if course it didn't come with a battery...whatever. The info sheet that came with it said "One 12v battery". 12v? Weird but again, whatever. Went online looking for 12v battery...yup, car batteries and the like came back. However I did come across a 12v 23a battery. Here's where it gets confusing. The battery compartment is 3" long ( minus threaded cap, 2.5" . A 23a battery is just under an 1" long and remember , info sheet said "One 12v battery", but any way you slice it, 2 wouldn't be long enough and 3 would be too long. 
Anyone have one of these? What battery do you use and how many 
Thanks guys


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## Chuck K (Dec 16, 2019)

Extra Battery for Fowler Electronic Edge Finders - 54-575-601
					

Offering a huge selection of industrial tool sales online. Find over 100,000 metalworking products, precision measuring tools, power tools & accessories.




					www.penntoolco.com


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## darkzero (Dec 16, 2019)

I've got 2 of them. Both use 12V 23A batteries (same unit purchased yrs apart that came in different style cases) & both of mine came with batteries. They use only one. 23A batteries were commonly used in older automotive keyless entry & alarm remotes. Newer ones don't use 23A batteries anymore so not sure what else uses 23A batteries.

I'm surprised you are having trouble with the Mitutoyo. Although I use the Folwer one more often I have PEC conventional edge finders & I trust them more. The Fowler one I use a lot cause they're quick & good enough (accuracy) but mainly when I don't want to mar the finish of a finished part. Useless for non-conductive parts or when I'm using something to protect the parts when clamped. But a jumper takes care of the latter, I'll just use a scale to complete the circuit cause it's always around. I'll use a conventional anytime the accuracy is more important, they're more accurate than the Fowler/SPI.

There's 2 models that Fowler/SPI offer though. The other one is the break away ball tip type that costs more than double than the standard one. Not sure what battery those use though.


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## kb58 (Dec 16, 2019)

Probably 1.2V with a typo

Edit: I though tiny 12V batteries went away decades ago. Who remembers 69V batteries for tube equipment? I thought so!


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## Asm109 (Dec 16, 2019)

My garage door opener remotes all use the 23 12 volt battery.  Inside it is a stack of 6 coin cells.


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## darkzero (Dec 16, 2019)

Yep, I forget what size the cells are inside but they are a standard cell size that you can buy, wrap in tape & use in place of a 23A. But that was back when 23A cells were sold for too much money.


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## higgite (Dec 17, 2019)

Energizers - $3.58 for 2.



			https://www.amazon.com/Energizer-Mercury-Alkaline-Batteries-Packaging/dp/B00004YK10/ref=sr_1_7?keywords=23a+battery&qid=1576587623&sr=8-7
		


Tom


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## macardoso (Dec 17, 2019)

I've been using the Tormach break away ball type edge finder for years now and love it. Always wondered how to edge find more accurately. Just found this!






Watch at the 6 minute mark. I bet everyone knows this already but it was new to me!


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## Tinkertoy1941 (Dec 17, 2019)

From where I was instructed by and old Journeyman machinist the youtube video above leaves a whole lot to be desired.


In my experience of running Jig Bores, Jig Grinders and CNC machines the chair pictured above is the most accurate and most efficient way to pick up the edge of any part. It is also the most economical for if you are really $$ wise you can make your own!


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## hman (Dec 17, 2019)

GunsOfNavaron -
Though I can sympathize with you for having trouble with a traditional (spinning) edge finder, I gotta say that I still prefer it over any of the ones (like the electronic type) that don't involve spindle rotation.  If the collet or chuck is a bit off, a non-rotating edge finder will be off by whatever error there is in the holding device.  Suburban Tool has a neat video that demonstrates how accurately a spinning edge finder works, even when deliberately placed way off center:


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## macardoso (Dec 17, 2019)

Tinkertoy1941 said:


> From where I was instructed by and old Journeyman machinist the youtube video above leaves a whole lot to be desired.



I'd love to learn more. That video was the first time I had ever seen a truly precision edge finding. Is the goal of the "chair" to hit both edges with the indicator until the reading is the same?


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## higgite (Dec 17, 2019)

I got a Fisher audible edge finder last year and have been using it since.





I trust that it’s audible, but I can’t hear it with the mill running, so I rely on my eyeballs to tell me when it has found the edge. The DTI method in the video intrigued me, so I ran my own experiment on my bench mill with my edge finder vs my Mitutoyo DTI. The two readings were different by about the width of a tick mark on the X-axis dial, maybe .0002”. And it was repeatable. That’s closer than my machine can machine anyway and I don’t do production work, so I’m sticking with the Fisher edge finder until something cheaper, easier and faster comes along. Plus, I felt like the guy with two watches… which one is right? ymmv

Tom

Edit: Sorry for the large size of the pic. Maybe a moderator could shrink it a little?


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## GunsOfNavarone (Dec 18, 2019)

So I didn't realize there were replies here. I knew 23a wouldn't work just by how much room was in the edge finder and it wasn't evenly divided by the length of the 23a...but that's the only 12v I could find. 2 batteries leave about 1/2 of space, 3 batteries won't fit. Reading thread now....


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## GunsOfNavarone (Dec 18, 2019)

darkzero said:


> I've got 2 of them. Both use 12V 23A batteries (same unit purchased yrs apart that came in different style cases) & both of mine came with batteries. They use only one. 23A batteries were commonly used in older automotive keyless entry & alarm remotes. Newer ones don't use 23A batteries anymore so not sure what else uses 23A batteries.
> 
> I'm surprised you are having trouble with the Mitutoyo. Although I use the Folwer one more often I have PEC conventional edge finders & I trust them more. The Fowler one I use a lot cause they're quick & good enough (accuracy) but mainly when I don't want to mar the finish of a finished part. Useless for non-conductive parts or when I'm using something to protect the parts when clamped. But a jumper takes care of the latter, I'll just use a scale to complete the circuit cause it's always around. I'll use a conventional anytime the accuracy is more important, they're more accurate than the Fowler/SPI.
> 
> ...


Mine is like this one....what is that piece with the resistor? Mine doesn't have that piece


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## GunsOfNavarone (Dec 18, 2019)

hman said:


> GunsOfNavaron -
> Though I can sympathize with you for having trouble with a traditional (spinning) edge finder, I gotta say that I still prefer it over any of the ones (like the electronic type) that don't involve spindle rotation.  If the collet or chuck is a bit off, a non-rotating edge finder will be off by whatever error there is in the holding device.  Suburban Tool has a neat video that demonstrates how accurately a spinning edge finder works, even when deliberately placed way off center:


Yeah the Mitutoyo just slowly move slowly to the side as I slowly turn the the x axis wheel. I was under the impression they just to side when edge is found. If it was when it centered itself.....that would be MUCH easier. I'm running about 780 rpm.


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## darkzero (Dec 18, 2019)

GunsOfNavarone said:


> Mine is like this one....what is that piece with the resistor? Mine doesn't have that piece



That is the "electronic" part of the edge finder. It's the module that contains the LED that lights up on contact. If your's doesn't have that you should return it for another.


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## darkzero (Dec 18, 2019)

GunsOfNavarone said:


> Mine is like this one....what is that piece with the resistor? Mine doesn't have that piece



Is it missing for sure or possibly just stuck inside the unit? No reason really for it to come out but mine does. Like can you see the red LED through the holes near the tip?

Edit: Well since you say a 23A battery is too short I suppose it really is missing on yours?


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## Tinkertoy1941 (Dec 18, 2019)

The rotating edge finders with an experienced Journeyman machinist can guarantee an accuracy of plus/minus of .0015 and that is not close enough for gage work. The small rotating diameter is on the edge just as the small diameter just moves off center and that depends on the skill of the operator!

The spindle being tramed "swept with an indicator to read .0000 in four directions) to the table is required to qualify to even get close to the +/- .0015 tolerance! 

The chair method of finding an edge takes all the guess work out of finding an accurate edge!


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## GunsOfNavarone (Dec 18, 2019)

darkzero said:


> Is it missing for sure or possibly just stuck inside the unit? No reason really for it to come out but mine does. Like can you see the red LED through the holes near the tip?
> 
> Edit: Well since you say a 23A battery is too short I suppose it really is missing on yours?


so yeah.....Mine is a hollow shell...nothing inside. I had Amazon credit the sale. Guess I'm gonna look for something else. Since the side kick version  doesn't work for me, what would you all recommend that is easy to distinguish that you have found the edge of a work piece?


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## darkzero (Dec 18, 2019)

GunsOfNavarone said:


> so yeah.....Mine is a hollow shell...nothing inside. I had Amazon credit the sale. Guess I'm gonna look for something else. Since the side kick version  doesn't work for me, what would you all recommend that is easy to distinguish that you have found the edge of a work piece?



Ah that sucks but at least Amazon took care of it. Sorry, if I may ask, did Amazon ask you to return it? If not, wanna sell me the empty shell?

Aside from a conventional edge finder & the chair method, another option is a wiggler. If your conventional is kicking out to the side, sounds like it's working fine. That's what they are supposed to do. Although some cheaper ones don't work that well if the sliding surfaces aren't lapped well (not expected from Mitutoyo) or is gummed up from old oil.

There are other options & methods for edge finding but are much more expensive (like a 3D- edge finder) or take longer (like a good ol DTI).


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## GunsOfNavarone (Dec 18, 2019)

Tinkertoy1941 said:


> From where I was instructed by and old Journeyman machinist the youtube video above leaves a whole lot to be desired.
> View attachment 308081
> 
> In my experience of running Jig Bores, Jig Grinders and CNC machines the chair pictured above is the most accurate and most efficient way to pick up the edge of any part. It is also the most economical for if you are really $$ wise you can make your own!


I would love to know how this even works! I can't wrap my head around it, can you send some light?


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## macardoso (Dec 18, 2019)

GunsOfNavarone said:


> I would love to know how this even works! I can't wrap my head around it, can you send some light?



Tinkertoy1941 might have a better explanation than I do, but it seems that the "chair" is precision ground such that the lower edge is precisely midway between the two walls of the fork on top. If you were to hold this firmly against the part (or use the magnets), and then sweep a tenths indicator inside the fork, you should be able to dial in the machine where the high reading on each wall of the fork is even.

When this is true, you would know your spindle centerline is exactly midway between to two walls of the fork, which also means it is directly above the edge of the part (within the resolution of your indicator).


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## higgite (Dec 18, 2019)

Tinkertoy1941 said:


> The rotating edge finders with an experienced Journeyman machinist can guarantee an accuracy of plus/minus of .0015 and that is not close enough for gage work. .....


Are these people mistaken about the accuracy of their rotating edge finders or am I missing something?



			https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/84033356
		


Fowler 3/8, 1/2 Inch Shank Diameter, 0.0002 Inch Accuracy, Edge Finder Set 
Specs
Type                                               Edge Finder Set 
Head Contact Type                        Cylindrical 
Head Diameter (Decimal Inch)       0.2000; 0.5000 
Shank Diameter (Inch)                    3/8; 1/2 
Accuracy (Decimal Inch)                 0.0002 
Number of Pieces                           4 
Includes                                          (4) Attachments; Plastic Sleeve 

Tom


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## macardoso (Dec 18, 2019)

I'm pretty sure that is the diametrical accuracy of the tool. That is quite different from the accuracy of when it "breaks" on an edge. The exact accuracy and repeatability of this action is far from perfect. It will also vary depending on the cleanliness and age of the tool.


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## doc55 (Dec 18, 2019)

I have made a few of the electronic type. I show them in my videos. The one you show broken down if you remove the resistor then you should be able to use a 3v watch battery.  I couldn't make about the color bands on the resistor but I'm betting its around a 7.5ohm. I also made an electronit height setter to set tools at exactly 1.00 I have drawings if anyone is interested. The edgfinder I know I have drawings for it also just not sure were I put them.


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## doc55 (Dec 18, 2019)

Tinkertoy1941 said:


> From where I was instructed by and old Journeyman machinist the youtube video above leaves a whole lot to be desired.
> View attachment 308081
> 
> In my experience of running Jig Bores, Jig Grinders and CNC machines the chair pictured above is the most accurate and most efficient way to pick up the edge of any part. It is also the most economical for if you are really $$ wise you can make your own!




I have one of these also to get a dead on position you can do the same with little block and sweep the face of the block and the edge of the piece you want to find the edge of.


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## Tinkertoy1941 (Dec 19, 2019)

When you use a magnetic CHAIR as shown in the picture
	

		
			
		

		
	



	

		
			
		

		
	
with a tenth indicator the reference  edge will be within .0001 TIR when inspected with a CMM "Coordinate Measuring Machine".
Sweeping the inside of the chair eliminates mistakes, such as spindle not concentric, drill chuck with run out and many other thing that could possibly go wrong! 
Did anyone forget to subtract one half of the contact diameter before setting edge Zero!!


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## GunsOfNavarone (Dec 19, 2019)

I know we're a bit off now, good stuff don't change, but I did reorder the same unit, no way the second will be half missing. It's like the R8-er32 chuck I purchased. The first was rubbish, the second works fine. Quality control doesn't exist in China.


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## mmcmdl (Dec 19, 2019)

Any edge finder was a no-no on any of our jig bores or jig grinders . You used a .00005 reading indicator only and you were taught this as an apprentice .


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## GunsOfNavarone (Dec 20, 2019)

mmcmdl said:


> Any edge finder was a no-no on any of our jig bores or jig grinders . You used a .00005 reading indicator only and you were taught this as an apprentice .


I can’t argue with that. Thankfully I’m not working with tolerances that’s small that I have to worry about that but I would like to learn the “most accurate “ way of doing it. I’m already painfully slow, I’m hoping to do setup quickly so I’m going with electronic but would like to get manual edge finder working.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Dec 25, 2019)

Merry Christmas all!
Anyway, just a final update, kind of interesting. So, Amazon let me keep the incomplete gauge (Amazon is pretty decent on their policies) credited me ttge $40 and sold me a new one for $20. The new one is complete and works, HOWEVER....
LOOKING at the two there are some difference and a large quality issue. Obviously the brand name model number are much harder to see than the other and the actual problem on one isn't flush and quite dinged up. I would be concerned on the centering of the probe. I ended up using the original shell with the new guts. It did include batteries this time. I'm going to check run out on both, even though you don't have it rotating when using, there could be a solid .010 runout, but who knows. Is one a knock off? They are different& I wouldn't see any other reason for the difference and quality.


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## middle.road (Dec 25, 2019)

Joe Pie has a very good video on the subject.
When you need dead nutz, and all the pieces required are laying in the tool chest
Me personally, I don't need another gadget around that takes batteries. Can't seem to keep up with all of them as it is.


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## homebrewed (Dec 26, 2019)

Regarding the projected surface technique described in the video (and the chair method as well), the skeptic in me wants to point out that they both assume the spindle is perfectly trammed.  This is because the work and projected edge are at different heights.  OK, the error will be pretty small but it won't be zero.  Minimizing the delta-z (and potential error) would be easier with the projected surface method.

I find my wobbler-type edge finder plenty adequate for my current needs but it's interesting to see how one could do much better without really fancy or costly measurement devices.  It would be a good way to test other types of edge finders, too.

A good discussion!


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## middle.road (Dec 26, 2019)

homebrewed said:


> Regarding the projected surface technique described in the video (and the chair method as well), the skeptic in me wants to point out that they both assume the spindle is perfectly trammed.  This is because the work and projected edge are at different heights.  OK, the error will be pretty small but it won't be zero.  Minimizing the delta-z (and potential error) would be easier with the projected surface method.
> 
> I find my wobbler-type edge finder plenty adequate for my current needs but it's interesting to see how one could do much better without really fancy or costly measurement devices.  It would be a good way to test other types of edge finders, too.
> 
> A good discussion!


If the spindle isn't trammed in properly, I wouldn't even bother to continue. You'd be fighting a losing battle.


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