# Time for a modern TIG machine.  What do you like?



## pontiac428 (Jul 10, 2022)

I have had my trusty early-1970's white face Miller Dialarc HF and water cooling setup for... decades.  Actually, I love the big transformer welder.  The arc is sublimely stable and DC welding is a treat.  AC leaves a lot to be desired though, since it has no wave tools (like balance) and the pure sine takes more of the machine's amperage capacity to drive than square wave welders.  To add perspective, this is a 700-lb machine that does not hit 100% duty cycle until a meager 125 amps.  I have had no issues getting parts for the welder, having had to replace the rectifier and HF start relays some time back.  And also, big surprise, I'm running out of space so a smaller footprint will help.

A modern welder with a switching power supply and more parameter control is what I'm after.  I've only ever owned blue, having grown up among some real old-school Miller careerists.  That also meant cool stuff like getting a tech-refurbished Millermatic 35 power tap welder for my 20th birthday.  Dad spotted the Dialarc in his sales territory and dragged it back to me way back when, too.  I don't have any connections anymore for dealer pricing and what-not, which was nice when I wanted a modern MIG.  So I'm paying retail or buying used.

So far I have found a deal on a new Dynasty 210, but that's a lot to pay for a 200-amp machine.  The duty cycle isn't very robust, and the added cost of a cooling unit makes the bottom line a bit too rich for my blood.

I would be happy with a Syncrowave 250 DX, if and only if it came with all the wave tools and timers.  90% of those machines came in vanilla trim for production.  They are out there though, and the price is very nice compared to a new entry-tier Dynasty.  Of course these are scattered all over the country, so I'd have to buy sight unseen, just like buying used iron.  Maybe that's not bad, but it could backfire big time if a board is burnt or something like that.  There are no new boards.  

Our resident fanboy @General Zod's posts on his gushing love for HTP welders has got my attention.  I think he waits 'till game day, paints HTP on his chest, and chases cars up and down his street shouting HTP! HTP...!  I figure that kind of spirit has to come from somewhere, maybe they are good welders...   I'm eyeballing the Invertig 301 system.  I've never run one, but they look good on paper.  They're made in Italy, who may have gotten their noodles from the Chinese, but they're still an EU company when it comes to manufacturing.  The price is good for a new welder.  I don't know if HTP will have the longevity of the blue, red, and yellow welders out there.  It's hard to put into perspective the difference between a 5 year old company and a 100 year old company if I have plans to own an use their product for the next 30 years.  I need more reassurance before I jump.

I have some trust in ESAB (has owned Tweco, Victor, Thermal Dynamics, Jackson, etc. for some 20 years).  They've been bought and sold by conglomerate holdings corporations during the long run, but still have provided service continuity for out-of-production machines.  I just don't think ESAB has me in mind right now, I don't need portability and automatic global input voltage capability, I want power, control, and versatility out of the features I'll have to pay for.

There are also hobbyist brands that I have never heard of or never heard anything good about.  Anything that looks like a version of a harbor freight welder is in the prior category, Everlast falls in the latter.  Change my mind if you've run something that you liked!

So that's it, I'm looking for a better, more modern commercial TIG machine than the one I have.  What TIG gives you a warm happy tickle when you dial it right?


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## WobblyHand (Jul 10, 2022)

I've been pretty happy with my HTP InverTIG 200.  I've had it now over 10 years.  Pretty easy to dial in.  I splurged on a water cooler and water cooled torch and really like it.  At least when I bought it you could get decent length leads and ultra flex cables which helps quite a bit.  HTP consumables seemed to be fairly priced.  HTP also used to stock other companies consumables if I recall correctly.  

Bought my TIG rig when I decided I wanted to alter my 304 stainless exhaust system.  Welded on quick disconnect flanges and slightly altered the exhaust geometry.  Got dual flow meters so I could run a purge on the back side.  Didn't want solar flux in my exhaust system.


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## Aaron_W (Jul 10, 2022)

My only experience is with Miller, I have a 220 3 in 1 which has done everything I can ask of it, and I used a Dynasty 210 or 280 in class. The Dynasty is a nice machine with a lot of features but well out of my budget and as a very novice welder I couldn't take advantage of half the features anyway. 

Many of the name brands have shot up in price, my 220 has increased in price by 1/3 in the 3 years since I bought it, and it appears the other models have as well. ESAB and Lincoln seem to have had similar price increases.

No personal experience with other brands but I hear only good things about HTP and there are many positive reviews of some of the cheaper import brands. Prime Weld and Everlast seem to offer very well equipped machines for very reasonable prices. Even the Harbor Freight Vulcan and Titanium welders get mostly positive comments, but the users commenting on the imports tend to be hobby guys, not sure how they would hold up to heavy use.


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## Reddinr (Jul 10, 2022)

I lucked into a deal on a Miller 325P (350P?, I forget) MIG maybe a dozen years ago.  It is a power-house that I've barely cranked up beyond 250A.  I got it for about 1/3 price so I bought it even though I didn't need that power.  It is a realiable beauty with a lovely blue color.

I have an Everlast TIG, 250A that has been reliable the last couple of years I've owned it.  It is a better welding machine than I am a welder.
I have welded on a Miller TIG and my welds were no better (or worse) than with the Everlast.  It is not blue but I would buy it again.


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## Abrasive (Jul 10, 2022)

I had been 100% Miller since 1999 or so, but I picked up an HTP Invertig 221 a few months ago and am really impressed.  It lights off super smoothly even at the lowest end of the range.  Normally great low end performance costs a lot more…. (Hello, Dynasty.)

The Invertig is a great machine, and the people at HTP are super nice folks.


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## C-Bag (Jul 10, 2022)

I’m only putting my 2c in so I don’t lose track. I’d started looking at a small tig setup and several mentioned Everlast but the one that got my most attention was the Primeweld 225X. There are a bunch of reviews on YouTube that just love it and say it’s more than a hobby tig. And for less than $1000 with what seems like all the bells and whistles it’s $300 cheaper than the HF Ac/dc tig and seems a much better machine. But I’m not a tig welder and having to do a lot of research to make up for experience.


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## NCjeeper (Jul 10, 2022)

Reddinr said:


> I have an Everlast TIG, 250A that has been reliable the last couple of years I've owned it.  It is a better welding machine than I am a welder.


Me too. Although I don't have much torch time with it so can't really comment on durability.


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## Toro5xi (Jul 10, 2022)

Htp Invertig 221. Just using an air cooled torch but works great for my needs.
Got to say if looking for something basic and not doing aluminum I had a Miller Diversion 180 before the HTP.  Really worked well and great for someone new to tig.


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## C-Bag (Jul 10, 2022)

Just out of curiosity and probably to kick myself, but what do you think of a Syncrowave 250DX?

When my brother was moving he begged me to take his but I didn’t know anything about tig, and the thing looked as big as a house with all the cables and boxes. I’m not sure but the added killer was it was 3ph, or that was my impression. He got it as a settlement and said he’d had it on CL for months and nobody wanted it.


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## TBinKC (Jul 10, 2022)

I've had an Everlast 255ext tig welder for about 3 or 4 years now and it has been rock solid. I thought I had a problem once when the HF arc wouldn't start but after a quick discussion with a tech and a little closer look at what was going on, my foot pedal was in precisely the right position with an extension chord not allowing the pedal to be properly depressed. Totally embarrassing moment all on me. I have since purcahsed a MIG setup from them too with equally good results. I own a Miller Engine drive and other equipment.. but use the Everlast(s) for most of my indoors shop work.


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## pontiac428 (Jul 10, 2022)

Thanks for the discussion and input.  I think my choices are down to three:  HTP Invertig 301, Miller Syncrowave 250 DX (if fully optioned), and the Dynasty 210.  All three can overlap in price but there are a lot of factors in arriving at a deal.   The HTP represents the best value, and they deliver to my door.  The other options will come down to opportunity and diligence, as always is the case with machinery.


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## great white (Jul 10, 2022)

Everlast powertig 250ex here. Absolutely no complaints for my hobby use.

Its a lot of dials and knobs instead of display panels (the amperage display is digital) but its also approx 1,000 bucks less expensive than the next highest model, the 255ext.

I would recommend it to friends or buy another if I needed to.


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## koenbro (Jul 10, 2022)

Another vote for the HTP Invertig 221 (with water cooler). 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## koenbro (Jul 10, 2022)

Another vote for the HTP Invertig 221 (with water cooler). 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## davidpbest (Jul 11, 2022)

Everlast 255 Ext here and exceptionally happy with it.   https://www.everlastgenerators.com/product/tig-stick/powertig-255ext


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## MrWhoopee (Jul 11, 2022)

AHP AlphaTIG 200. Very happy with it. Would buy again.


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## Aaron_W (Jul 11, 2022)

C-Bag said:


> I’m only putting my 2c in so I don’t lose track. I’d started looking at a small tig setup and several mentioned Everlast but the one that got my most attention was the Primeweld 225X. There are a bunch of reviews on YouTube that just love it and say it’s more than a hobby tig. And for less than $1000 with what seems like all the bells and whistles it’s $300 cheaper than the HF Ac/dc tig and seems a much better machine. But I’m not a tig welder and having to do a lot of research to make up for experience.



One suggestion I have after doing a lot of shopping for my welder is look at video reviews specifically looking at the user interface. This is something that differs from brand to brand. I used Miller almost exclusively while learning to weld which I am sure had an impact on my control preferences. I was primarily looking at the Miller 215, and 220, Lincoln 210mp and Esab 205 and 215. All of these machines are very similar in performance and reputation, but I liked the user interface on Miller the best.

The fact my local welding supply can service Lincoln and Miller in house also helped sway my decision, some brands require shipping the machine out for repairs which can get expensive. This is one benefit I can see to HF among the import brands, any trouble in the warranty period, just go to HF and swap for a new one.


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## DavidR8 (Jul 11, 2022)

Big vote here for the Primeweld 225. Mine has been flawless and their customer service is unbelievably good. I think the Primeweld represents the best value on the market.


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## C-Bag (Jul 11, 2022)

Aaron_W said:


> One suggestion I have after doing a lot of shopping for my welder is look at video reviews specifically looking at the user interface. This is something that differs from brand to brand. I used Miller almost exclusively while learning to weld which I am sure had an impact on my control preferences. I was primarily looking at the Miller 215, and 220, Lincoln 210mp and Esab 205 and 215. All of these machines are very similar in performance and reputation, but I liked the user interface on Miller the best.
> 
> The fact my local welding supply can service Lincoln and Miller in house also helped sway my decision, some brands require shipping the machine out for repairs which can get expensive. This is one benefit I can see to HF among the import brands, any trouble in the warranty period, just go to HF and swap for a new one.


As with anything, software or hardware, it has a lot to do with what you learned on. Besides the glowing reviews on YouTube of the Primeweld 225 and them getting 100% on customer service including paying for shipping, the complete controls with individual knobs is a big deal for me. Most younger people don’t mind small digital interfaces that you scroll through menus. I am NOT wired that way and hate them with a passion. So the 225 having all the controls over parameters that some cheaper machines don’t even have right on the face with well marked knobs totally appeals to me. Also there are several of the lower end HF, and Everlast machines for sale used. I have a tendency to wonder why. Unless it’s one of the machines I’m interested in then all logic and caution is forgotten


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## DavidR8 (Jul 11, 2022)

@C-Bag the analog controls on the Primeweld were a big selling point for me as well. Trying to learn TIG technique and the interface simultaneously was not appealing. Plus it's easy to reach up and tweak one setting without having to navigate to a function that's two levels deep while wearing gloves.
Of all the machines I looked at on the HTP InverTIG 221 had a comprehensible interface. But that comes at a very high price.


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## G-ManBart (Jul 11, 2022)

pontiac428 said:


> Thanks for the discussion and input.  I think my choices are down to three:  HTP Invertig 301, Miller Syncrowave 250 DX (if fully optioned), and the Dynasty 210.  All three can overlap in price but there are a lot of factors in arriving at a deal.   The HTP represents the best value, and they deliver to my door.  The other options will come down to opportunity and diligence, as always is the case with machinery.


I own a Syncrowave 250DX and have had literally 20 or 21 other Syncrowave 250 and 250DX welders in the past few years.  I made it a hobby of buying them, cleaning them up, replacing anything needed and making them as nice as possible...some literally looked like floor demo models when I was ready to sell them.  With that said, the optional pulser and sequencer aren't in the same boat as far as capability goes compared to a newer inverter machine.  Don't get me wrong, I love mine, but if you really want a useful pulse, variable frequency, different wave forms, etc, you might look at something newer.  On top of that, prices have skyrocketed on them in the past 2-3 years.  I used to be able to buy a really nice unit with the integral water cooler for under $2K, go through it top to bottom and sell it for $3,000 to $3500 pretty regularly...folks could come run it all they wanted to make sure it was solid.  Now you'll pay more than that to get an untested unit at auction.

I also own an Everlast PowerTIG 210EXT and while it welds nicely, I would never, ever buy from them again, or recommend that company.  My first Everlast developed a problem after just a few months and it took over 50 e-mails and a dozen phone calls to get resolved.  First they sent me the wrong part, then the right part, then the wrong board, then the right board, and nothing worked.  Finally I wound up on the phone with Oleg, the owner, and he offered a replacement unit or full purchase price credit towards a more expensive machine.  I went with the more expensive machine, but really would have preferred a full purchase price refund.  They are legendary for being terrible about customer service.

Others have mentioned the Primeweld 225X and that's one I've recommended to several friends lately.  Everyone I know who's bought one has been really happy with it, and the company gets universally good reviews.  I'm planning to buy one of their Plasma cutters soon.  Other than having less power than a Sync 250 it gives you all of the modern bells and whistles the Sync lacks.  The machines are imported, but the company is here and you can get a live person on the phone very easily.

If you do go with a modern inverter, and decide to add a water cooler, I do have one suggestion after having gone through a lot of coolers in the past couple of years.  Avoid the inexpensive coolers you'll find on Amazon, eBay and even the HTP unit (the only HTP product I don't like).  These use a pump for moving coolant and a set of electric fans similar to what you'd find on a computer tower to move air.  There are various posts about the pump failing or having a blocked line but you don't know it because the fans keep running.  I have also tested three of these coolers and they put out a very low volume of water...like barely enough to send water two or three feet horizontally.  The better coolers from Miller, Bernard, Dynaflux, etc use a bigger motor that has a cooling fan on one end and a Procon style pump on the other end.  They cost more, but are very reliable and if the motor stops you'll know about it.  They also put out way more water...they'll send water 15+ feet easily.  They cost more, but I'm sold on how much better they work, and how easy they are to service and repair.


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## Toro5xi (Jul 11, 2022)

Ok I realize Miller and Lincoln have huge budgets for advertising and other overhead costs that say HTP don’t have but I looked at the Primeweld prices and I am shocked.  How is that possible?  What am I missing?
I have wanted a larger Plasma cutter but just couldn’t justify the price for how infrequently I would use it.  Has anyone used the Primeweld plasma cutters?  For those prices I would get one.


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## C-Bag (Jul 11, 2022)

G-ManBart said:


> I own a Syncrowave 250DX and have had literally 20 or 21 other Syncrowave 250 and 250DX welders in the past few years.  I made it a hobby of buying them, cleaning them up, replacing anything needed and making them as nice as possible...some literally looked like floor demo models when I was ready to sell them.  With that said, the optional pulser and sequencer aren't in the same boat as far as capability goes compared to a newer inverter machine.  Don't get me wrong, I love mine, but if you really want a useful pulse, variable frequency, different wave forms, etc, you might look at something newer.  On top of that, prices have skyrocketed on them in the past 2-3 years.  I used to be able to buy a really nice unit with the integral water cooler for under $2K, go through it top to bottom and sell it for $3,000 to $3500 pretty regularly...folks could come run it all they wanted to make sure it was solid.  Now you'll pay more than that to get an untested unit at auction.
> 
> I also own an Everlast PowerTIG 210EXT and while it welds nicely, I would never, ever buy from them again, or recommend that company.  My first Everlast developed a problem after just a few months and it took over 50 e-mails and a dozen phone calls to get resolved.  First they sent me the wrong part, then the right part, then the wrong board, then the right board, and nothing worked.  Finally I wound up on the phone with Oleg, the owner, and he offered a replacement unit or full purchase price credit towards a more expensive machine.  I went with the more expensive machine, but really would have preferred a full purchase price refund.  They are legendary for being terrible about customer service.
> 
> ...


That makes me feel better about not taking my brothers machine. Thing was huge. But I want to do thin aluminum so don’t think I need a ship welder. What I think it confusing is when you search “best tig machine” it’s always the Everlast and HTP, never once have I seen the Primeweld. But YouTube pros etc have loved the 225. Go figgur.


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## DavidR8 (Jul 11, 2022)

Toro5xi said:


> Ok I realize Miller and Lincoln have huge budgets for advertising and other overhead costs that say HTP don’t have but I looked at the Primeweld prices and I am shocked.  How is that possible?  What am I missing?
> I have wanted a larger Plasma cutter but just couldn’t justify the price for how infrequently I would use it.  Has anyone used the Primeweld plasma cutters?  For those prices I would get one.


By all the reports I've seen the Primeweld plasma cutters are also excellent.


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## Aaron_W (Jul 11, 2022)

C-Bag said:


> As with anything, software or hardware, it has a lot to do with what you learned on. Besides the glowing reviews on YouTube of the Primeweld 225 and them getting 100% on customer service including paying for shipping, the complete controls with individual knobs is a big deal for me. Most younger people don’t mind small digital interfaces that you scroll through menus. I am NOT wired that way and hate them with a passion. So the 225 having all the controls over parameters that some cheaper machines don’t even have right on the face with well marked knobs totally appeals to me. Also there are several of the lower end HF, and Everlast machines for sale used. I have a tendency to wonder why. Unless it’s one of the machines I’m interested in then all logic and caution is forgotten



This is exactly what I was getting at. 

ESAB and Lincoln both used a push the knob and scroll input, while Miller uses a simpler push button and up and down arrows that I'm more comfortable with. I really wanted a 3 in 1 machine for space reasons so didn't spend much time looking at any stand alone TIG welders, but the Prime Weld did stand out to me with its plethora of knobs. It reminded me of the flight engineers station on a B36 (controls and gauges for 6 piston engines and 4 jet engines). To some I'm sure that is a feature. In a car I prefer a manual transmission, but in a welder I appreciate a good auto set feature.


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## DavidR8 (Jul 11, 2022)

Aaron_W said:


> This is exactly what I was getting at.
> 
> ESAB and Lincoln both used a push the knob and scroll input, while Miller uses a simpler push button and up and down arrows that I'm more comfortable with. I really wanted a 3 in 1 machine for space reasons so didn't spend much time looking at any stand alone TIG welders, but the Prime Weld did stand out to me with its plethora of knobs. It reminded me of the flight engineers station on a B36 (controls and gauges for 6 piston engines and 4 jet engines). To some I'm sure that is a feature. In a car I prefer a manual transmission, but in a welder I appreciate a good auto set feature.


I know there's a fellow that has made a decal for the switch panel which has increment lines so that you have some point of reference when making adjustments.


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## Toro5xi (Jul 11, 2022)

This had been a great thread.  I’m a sucker for the tool truck. Always purchased Lincoln or miller, and have a Hypertherm 30 plasma cutter but I’m gonna try a Primeweld plasma cutter.  I thought I was taking a chance going with HTP 8 years ago but have never had a problem and certainly grounded the tungsten more than I care to admit.


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## G-ManBart (Jul 11, 2022)

Toro5xi said:


> Ok I realize Miller and Lincoln have huge budgets for advertising and other overhead costs that say HTP don’t have but I looked at the Primeweld prices and I am shocked.  How is that possible?  What am I missing?
> I have wanted a larger Plasma cutter but just couldn’t justify the price for how infrequently I would use it.  Has anyone used the Primeweld plasma cutters?  For those prices I would get one.


The big difference is that the Primeweld machines are made in China, where the others are U.S. (Miller), Mexico (Lincoln) and Italy (HTP) for the most part.  One thing that often gets missed is that the bigger companies have service centers, trained techs, tech services, and also warehouses with smart parts going back decades in many cases.  That isn't going to be the case with a company like Primeweld.  The reality is, if a Primweld breaks in five years you're just going to buy a replacement rather than be able to fix it.  With the bigger names you have a better chance of being able to get parts and support over time, and that can't be cheap for the companies to maintain.

I've done a lot of reading about plasma cutters over the past year, and read every review and post I could find about the Primeweld machines.  Much like the TIG, I have yet to see anything bad written about them.  I'm planning to get the CUT60 as it will handle anything I'm likely to run into regularly...still have a big oxy/acetylene setup for anything really thick.


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## Abrasive (Jul 11, 2022)

I looked hard at all the "affordable" AC/DC tig machines.  Basically anything less expensive than a Dynasty.  

Some notes on what led me to the HTP:

One thing I knew I wanted was good low end amperage control.  Any of these boxes will weld great at the high end.  Having the current spike and blow a hole in a tiny part or thin material when you arc up will really ruin your day.

The HTP will weld down to 4A, and it fires very nicely even at this tiny current level.  The Everlast boxes will weld down at this range but there are some anecdotal reports that it light off higher and then settles down to this level.  I haven't welded with one.  The Primeweld's minimum is 20A, and again I don't know how hard it actually lights off.  The AHP claims 5A DC/ 20A AC.

This may not be an important spec to you.  It's fun to mess around welding razor blades, shim stock and beer cans, but most people won't be doing this day-to-day.  You can also light up on a piece of scrap material and move the arc over to your workpiece.

With regard to all the knobs on the Primeweld, Everlast, etc., my take on it is that encoders tend to outlast potentiometers.  All those pots on the front panels look like the ultimate in convenience, until one craps out on you.  I'm reasonably certain that at this price point, they're not using high-end components here.  And if one does start to get flaky, there's no good way to know.  If that function isn't linked to a displayed number, it's hard to chase down that sort of issue.  It's also much harder to have precise repeatability of settings.  This is really more important in an industrial setting.  Some industries and applications require extremely close tracking to a WPS.  Anyway, there's a reason Miller, Lincoln, ESAB, Fronius, etc. don't have a wall of knobs on the front of their machines, and it isn't cost-cutting.

There's a YT video where a guy did a tear-down of the HTP Invertig, and the build quality is very, very good.  It's built in Italy, not China, if that's important to you.

I'm not trying to bash any welder out there.  Just throwing out some of the things that I considered when choosing my tig rig.

All that said, the Primeweld is an exceptional value, especially considering that it comes with a flex head CK torch.


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## Abrasive (Jul 11, 2022)

G-ManBart said:


> If you do go with a modern inverter, and decide to add a water cooler, I do have one suggestion after having gone through a lot of coolers in the past couple of years.  Avoid the inexpensive coolers you'll find on Amazon, eBay and even the HTP unit (the only HTP product I don't like).  These use a pump for moving coolant and a set of electric fans similar to what you'd find on a computer tower to move air.  There are various posts about the pump failing or having a blocked line but you don't know it because the fans keep running.  I have also tested three of these coolers and they put out a very low volume of water...like barely enough to send water two or three feet horizontally.  The better coolers from Miller, Bernard, Dynaflux, etc use a bigger motor that has a cooling fan on one end and a Procon style pump on the other end.  They cost more, but are very reliable and if the motor stops you'll know about it.  They also put out way more water...they'll send water 15+ feet easily.  They cost more, but I'm sold on how much better they work, and how easy they are to service and repair.



The HTP cooler is made in China, but it's not constructed like the cheaper coolers that are out there.   The fan and the pump are on the same motor shaft.  There's also a flow sensor with an audible and visible alarm.


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## Aaron_W (Jul 11, 2022)

G-ManBart said:


> The big difference is that the Primeweld machines are made in China, where the others are U.S. (Miller), Mexico (Lincoln) and Italy (HTP) for the most part.  One thing that often gets missed is that the bigger companies have service centers, trained techs, tech services, and also warehouses with smart parts going back decades in many cases.  That isn't going to be the case with a company like Primeweld.  The reality is, if a Primweld breaks in five years you're just going to buy a replacement rather than be able to fix it.  With the bigger names you have a better chance of being able to get parts and support over time, and that can't be cheap for the companies to maintain.
> 
> I've done a lot of reading about plasma cutters over the past year, and read every review and post I could find about the Primeweld machines.  Much like the TIG, I have yet to see anything bad written about them.  I'm planning to get the CUT60 as it will handle anything I'm likely to run into regularly...still have a big oxy/acetylene setup for anything really thick.



With the price difference between the name brands and many imports it is easy to treat the imports as disposable machines. $869 for the Primeweld 225 vs $2500 for a Lincoln Square Wave 200 or $2800 for a Miller Diversion 180.


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## FOMOGO (Jul 11, 2022)

I'm still running my old miller, and union carbide stuff, and really can't see any reason to upgrade, but then again I am a cheapskate, and so far have enough room that it's not an issue. Mike


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## Toro5xi (Jul 11, 2022)

Abrasive said:


> I looked hard at all the "affordable" AC/DC tig machines.  Basically anything less expensive than a Dynasty.
> 
> Some notes on what led me to the HTP:
> 
> ...


I think you have a very good point in relation to the consistency that the higher dollar machines should be able to maintain especially in the case of robotic welding or where multiple welders are being told to use the same machine settings.


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## great white (Jul 11, 2022)

G-ManBart said:


> The big difference is that the Primeweld machines are made in China, where the others are U.S. (Miller), Mexico (Lincoln) and Italy (HTP) for the most part.  One thing that often gets missed is that the bigger companies have service centers, trained techs, tech services, and also warehouses with smart parts going back decades in many cases.  That isn't going to be the case with a company like Primeweld.  The reality is, if a Primweld breaks in five years you're just going to buy a replacement rather than be able to fix it.  With the bigger names you have a better chance of being able to get parts and support over time, and that can't be cheap for the companies to maintain.
> 
> I've done a lot of reading about plasma cutters over the past year, and read every review and post I could find about the Primeweld machines.  Much like the TIG, I have yet to see anything bad written about them.  I'm planning to get the CUT60 as it will handle anything I'm likely to run into regularly...still have a big oxy/acetylene setup for anything really thick.


I’ve got a cut 50 pilot arc machine out in the garage. Super handy thing. It will cut up to 1/2“ 1018, but thats really its upper limit and the cuts get pretty “ragged” at that point.

Cheap little china unit, but works well enough in a home shop environment and the price was low enough that it wasn’t a big risk if it was crap.

One thing I will recommend is to open the thing up when you get it. Since its a chinese made thing, QA is pretty lacking. I tidied up a few things inside that weren’t quite right (ie: wires hard up against sharp edges, board not secured, etc) and then pulled the short, cheap power cord off and bough a good length quality piece to replace it.

The biggest thing I found that I didn’t like is there was no ground wire attached inside the case. Not a good thing with a metal body case on a 220v rig….


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## ericc (Jul 11, 2022)

If you want to do aluminum, there's nothing like the flexible wave balance in the more modern inverters.  You trade cleaning for penetration and focus.  The Synchrowave can do a slightly unbalanced wave, but nothing like the inverters.  You can go almost all the way to DC (90% DCEN) and the arc is a lot hotter and more focussed, but you will have to scrub, scrub, scrub.


----------



## koenbro (Jul 11, 2022)

Abrasive said:


> The HTP cooler is made in China, but it's not constructed like the cheaper coolers that are out there.   The fan and the pump are on the same motor shaft.  There's also a flow sensor with an audible and visible alarm.


I thought the _pump_ in the HTP cooler is made in Italy, but I might remember it wrong.


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## pontiac428 (Jul 11, 2022)

I can't bring myself to pull the trigger on the Invertig yet, but I'm getting closer.  I have a few sticking points, and they all have to do with owning and heavily using blue welders from the beginning.  I read an interesting thread on the AWS official forum, where a user asked about HTP stuff.  An old welder technician who seems to have seen everything wasn't convinced it is a European machine, judging by the components.  Said the French, German, and Czech welders are more representative.  Okay, so maybe the parts are sourced in China.  Just like your Chevy.  The other is the cooling system, the sales literature says something about the cooling unit's fans blowing on heat sinks should not be blocked.  Wha?  Heat sinks instead of a radiator?  And finally, they now offer a newer, more costly radiator with sensors that link back to the welder and cut power if flow stops.  It was all much simpler, and more heavy duty, with the old Miller Radiator-2 on the aging Dialarc.

Low power arc stability is a big deal.  Even my first tig (Miller Econotig, DC-only) would pop an arc at first tilt of the pedal.  I don't think it took 30A worth to goose it.  Arc start is a little tougher with the Dialarc HF.  The HF is only a kicker for AC arc starting.  The big transformer is buttery and smooth once you establish an arc, but you have to pull the chain a bit to get it started.  I am hoping this will be covered with whatever I choose thanks to electronics. 

Service.  I've owned five Millers, and only one ever needed parts.  The dealer provided me with all the schematics and documentation I needed to troubleshoot the faulty components.  Easily cross-referenced with the BOM in the manual, and I had part numbers.  With part numbers, I was able to get parts in a matter of days and at a very reasonable price.  I only plan to spend $6k-10k one time.  I do not want to find myself cussing and spitting in ten years time because I can't get jack from a defunct company (or one still in business but with a business model like cordless tools-use once and throw away).  I'd love to save thousands, but I do not know if HTP will service a discontinued model, provide documentation, and supply replacement parts.  I read the Invertig manual last night, and while I like the features and specs, I still cannot determine what kind of company HTP is.  The back of the manual is not even close to the level of detail Miller can provide, so that's what I'm hung up on.  I'm not putting myself out thousands so that I can be stuck at square zero ten years from now, when I am retired and can't afford a throwaway/replacement over what might be a $5 burned transistor or something.  See, now I'm talking myself back into Miller.

Why not Lincoln?  I grew up in the industry because of my dad.  I've heard a lot about Lincoln over the years.  My favorite is a college economics professor that I had that whined and moaned that he didn't invest in Google early enough, because he did not know what exactly google made.  As in, he didn't understand a product that you can't buy, take home, and hold in your hands.  Waah, prof.  He said his favorite stock was Lincoln Electric.  He said it was because the president's office was inside the old factory, had wood-paneled walls, and nothing in the room but a battleship desk and a row of file cabinets.  All of the profit goes to the shareholders, he said, as if it were a divine trait.  Now look at Miller's website.  They have a marketing machine that is going non-stop, and part of that is teaching people how to weld.  They provide tons of resources to build their base, but you don't need to be a customer to take advantage of it.  They are giving some of their profit back in doing this, as far as I see it.  And that's all I've got to say about that.

Next, I'll tell the saga of the plasma cutter...stay tuned.


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## C-Bag (Jul 11, 2022)

pontiac428 said:


> I can't bring myself to pull the trigger on the Invertig yet, but I'm getting closer.  I have a few sticking points, and they all have to do with owning and heavily using blue welders from the beginning.  I read an interesting thread on the AWS official forum, where a user asked about HTP stuff.  An old welder technician who seems to have seen everything wasn't convinced it is a European machine, judging by the components.  Said the French, German, and Czech welders are more representative.  Okay, so maybe the parts are sourced in China.  Just like your Chevy.  The other is the cooling system, the sales literature says something about the cooling unit's fans blowing on heat sinks should not be blocked.  Wha?  Heat sinks instead of a radiator?  And finally, they now offer a newer, more costly radiator with sensors that link back to the welder and cut power if flow stops.  It was all much simpler, and more heavy duty, with the old Miller Radiator-2 on the aging Dialarc.
> 
> Low power arc stability is a big deal.  Even my first tig (Miller Econotig, DC-only) would pop an arc at first tilt of the pedal.  I don't think it took 30A worth to goose it.  Arc start is a little tougher with the Dialarc HF.  The HF is only a kicker for AC arc starting.  The big transformer is buttery and smooth once you establish an arc, but you have to pull the chain a bit to get it started.  I am hoping this will be covered with whatever I choose thanks to electronics.
> 
> ...


Wow, you sound as conflicted as I am and I’ve not even got enough experience to be a noob You are coming from the other end of the spectrum where you might know too much. Me, I’ve never been a Miller guy. Mostly Lincoln and my home mig is a Lincoln 175T. Millers always worked, but you had to mess with ‘em. Where I could always just pull the trigger on my 175 and off I’d go. For some reason I don’t hear anybody trying to sell a Lincoln inverter tig, why is that?


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## pontiac428 (Jul 11, 2022)

C-Bag said:


> Wow, you sound as conflicted as I am and I’ve not even got enough experience to be a noob You are coming from the other end of the spectrum where you might know too much. Me, I’ve never been a Miller guy. Mostly Lincoln and my home mig is a Lincoln 175T. Millers always worked, but you had to mess with ‘em. Where I could always just pull the trigger on my 175 and off I’d go.



Yes, I am indeed conflicted!  I just navigated over to Lincoln Electric.  Their Aspect 230, as a water-cooled setup similarly featured to what I'd like, has one big, huge, ugly problem- the 100% duty cycle rating tops out at... <ahem> 110 amps.  We're talking about an $8,000 package here.  Those Lincoln guys brought a nice, shiny ride to the drag races, but it's stuffed with a 2-bbl small block!  In plain English, this welder can only handle 1/8" aluminum at 100% duty cycle.  In that price/feature range, I expect 1/4" capacity.  I already sold one tig machine for being too small (Miller Econotig, 160A max, 60A@100% duty).



> For some reason I don’t hear anybody trying to sell a Lincoln inverter tig, why is that?


I am using all of my available restraint not to crack wise.  I'm holding back...  Need to be good on the forum...  Don't want to alienate anyone...  C-Bag is one of the nice guys...  But when they gotta change the advert from "bring a trailer" to "bring a plunger", one should give that consideration!


----------



## epanzella (Jul 11, 2022)

I have a miller 250 ac/dc stick that's been doing yoman duty for 40 years and a Millermatic 35 MIG so I lean Miller.  When I needed a TIG the Miller prices were just to much to bear so I got an AHP Alpha 200 for $850. I was nervous at first expecting it to quit any second but it's been a few years now and the machine has welded carbon steel, Stainless steel and aluminum with nary a complaint. I would buy one again (but I hope I won't have to)


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## C-Bag (Jul 11, 2022)

pontiac428 said:


> We're talking about an $8,000 package here.


Big fail, homey ain’t droppin‘ $8k for welder, period.


----------



## pontiac428 (Jul 11, 2022)

Homey ain't no clown!

I have a question for @G-ManBart.  You've had your hands in quite a few Syncro 250DX machines, is it possible to retrofit the pulse and wave features into the vanilla version?  I need to double check the power requirements for the syncro 350 LX (think that's the right alphabets), because that's also an option.

The 250DX has integrated water cooling (option), one knob per feature/no menus operation, and with the right options the pulse timer, freq control, and wave form parameters.  It tops out around 200A, but the 100% duty cycle hits at 160A, which is really good.  It is a 1/4" machine.

The problem is finding one.  My best bet is local (greater Seattle), but I'm not afraid of freight- what I am afraid of is remote buying an expensive piece of kit from a classified listing without being able to see or test the machine.  This is again getting into capital equipment, where I'm more likely to buy from a business than I am to buy from an individual.  I anticipate shady practice from certain businesses, so that's one more layer of vetting before parting with my fat roll of George Washingtons.  I could pick up a 250DX vanilla pretty easily, they are common, so if I can find a way to add the optional boards, that might be best.


----------



## General Zod (Jul 12, 2022)

pontiac428 said:


> Our resident fanboy @General Zod's posts on his gushing love for HTP welders has got my attention.  I think he waits 'till game day, paints HTP on his chest, and chases cars up and down his street shouting HTP! HTP...!  I figure that kind of spirit has to come from somewhere, maybe they are good welders...   I'm eyeballing the Invertig 301 system.  I've never run one, but they look good on paper.    It's hard to put into perspective the difference between a 5 year old company and a 100 year old company if I have plans to own an use their product for the next 30 years.  I need more reassurance before I jump.



LOL, no I don't have time for that.  They are excellent welders with great customer service.  Are they impervious to anything and everything?  Nope, that is why they have their service dept/techs.   HTP has been around since the 80's as they just recently celebrated their 40th Anniversary.  Their welders (most of them anyways) are indeed made by Stel of Italy, who have been around since 1979, coincidentally the year I was born  . So I wouldn't say they are a 5 yr old company (neither HTP nor Stel).




pontiac428 said:


> I still cannot determine what kind of company HTP is.  The back of the manual is not even close to the level of detail Miller can provide, so that's what I'm hung up on.  I'm not putting myself out thousands so that I can be stuck at square zero ten years from now, when I am retired and can't afford a throwaway/replacement over what might be a $5 burned transistor or something.  See, now I'm talking myself back into Miller.


Simply put, HTP is a small welding company that imports machines to sell and service here in the USA.  If you want to know about how long they service the machines that are discontinued, email them at customerservice@htpweld.com to get an answer, or better yet, just call them and a real person answers the phone; they do not have an automated phone answering system of any kind. Also, if you think Miller will sell you a $5 burnt transistor so you can fix a modern blue welder, best think again. The cheap inverter boards from their low-level machines are likely $1000+.

Don't just take my word for it.   This is a quote from someone else who bought an Invertig 313 (the 1/3-phase capable version of the 301):



> HTP INVERTIG 313 Air Cooled
> 
> I have welded as a home garage hobbyist on and off for 40+ years.  I have ARC, Oxy Acetylene and MIG welded for many years.  About 15 years ago I had a DC scratch start TIG machine that I did some steel projects with, but it was not a great machine.  Last year I bought an AHP Alpha-TIG 201XD and started doing more TIG, especially aluminum.  As a hobbyist, I enjoy TIG.  The AHP has been a great machine for very little money.  It has never had any functional issues, but I felt I was pushing the machine to weld 3/16” or thicker aluminum.  I tried preheating, and even made up a mixing manifold for Argon/Helium mix.   Both made a positive difference, and it was fun to see the effect of the helium mix.  In the end, the machine still felt that it was at its limit… So, I took advantage of the sale at HTP and ordered an INVERTIG 313 air cooled.
> 
> ...



The machines are no joke, as you can see.  I would invite anyone (well _almost _anyone) to come over to my garage shop with their equivalent welding machines to torture test them side-by-side. Go full power right up until thermal shut down, let it cool, and as soon as it goes live again, go full power until thermal shut down, again, and again, and again, until one machine blows up. Anyone up for the challenge? Blue? Red? Yellow?  Oh, and it ain't 70°F here to protect the machines. 110-112°F during the day. No monkey business here.


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## pontiac428 (Jul 12, 2022)

Ha ha, thanks for stopping by, Zod!  The bait worked.  I figured for as much as you've invested, you'd have some perspective on HTP.  I didn't realize they've been around so long.  And the live person at the end of the phone is golden.



General Zod said:


> Also, if you think Miller will sell you a $5 burnt transistor so you can fix a modern blue welder, best think again. The cheap inverter boards from their low-level machines are likely $1000+.



You're right, this is totally true.  Board availability is what has had me spooked about the future of my plasma cutter, a commercial/industrial unit I've had for nigh 25 years.  It's rock solid, but I feel like there's two straws left to draw in that machine, and the short straw is simply inevitable.  I may sound like an asswipe worrying about a machine that's been reliable so long, but the cost of replacement for a 100% duty @ 1" machine is high, the boards are known to fail, and again I'm thinking about retiring early on a short budget.  I'm only three years older than you, so your time is coming.  I've earmarked a few convalescent homes already, in case I want to pull on some man diapers ahead of schedule, too!

I should have titled this thread something like "talk me out of Miller."  But, hey, I started young.  This was '81, I think.  Dad still has the scrap with my first MIG bead.



I'm usually not indecisive.  I usually know exactly what I want and work towards it.  I know I've been waffling, but it's a devil-you-know vs. devil-you-don't-know situation, and I want whatever I decide to be final.

This has been a helpful thread for me.  I'm going to ponder a little more, then load my cart, click, and get off the pot.  But I would like to expand the thread for plasma.  Right now, I've got a lathe to unload, but I'll present the info later.  Thanks!


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## Aaron_W (Jul 12, 2022)

pontiac428 said:


> I'm usually not indecisive.  I usually know exactly what I want and work towards it.  I know I've been waffling, but it's a devil-you-know vs. devil-you-don't-know situation, and I want whatever I decide to be final.




I would not call what you are doing being indecisive. I wonder sometimes when people can just drop $5-10,000 on a piece of equipment without a lot of internal debate and research. Obviously that kind of money is not as dear to some as it is to me. 
It took me 2 years of pondering options and actual need to spend $1000 on my first lathe. About the same when I decided to buy a welder, and in that case I more than tripled my initial high budget to get what I hope will be at least a 20 year if not a rest of my lifetime machine.

You seem to be pretty solid in what you want and from my perspective are just doing your due diligence to ensure you will be happy with your sizable investment.


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## C-Bag (Jul 12, 2022)

pontiac428 said:


> Ha ha, thanks for stopping by, Zod!  The bait worked.  I figured for as much as you've invested, you'd have some perspective on HTP.  I didn't realize they've been around so long.  And the live person at the end of the phone is golden.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is the kind of thread I've come to really love about this site. Most of the opinions are through lots of experience, good and bad. The kind of stuff I can't really find in star reviews. I don't know how many times I've read : "just got it, haven't used it yet but it's great" 5 stars, whaaaa? I'm deep in the noob trying to even get a clue stage so this has been very good for me.


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## G-ManBart (Jul 12, 2022)

Abrasive said:


> The HTP cooler is made in China, but it's not constructed like the cheaper coolers that are out there.   The fan and the pump are on the same motor shaft.  There's also a flow sensor with an audible and visible alarm.


I forgot they were made differently.  They still aren't made nearly as robust as the more expensive coolers....much smaller motor, small fan, and different pump setup.  There have been a number of discussions on welding forums about them failing.  They're much cheaper than the better coolers, but at $500 I can make a cooler with a Procon pump that will last for ages.  One guy rebuilt his and adapted a bigger motor and Procon pump to his failed unit:






						Water  cooler failure???    bad day....
					

I was attempting to repair an AR500 target from my range..  everything was going great for the first 10 seconds.... then I smell rubber burning...  lift the hood and the line is smoking... WTF.    torch is very warm but not hot.... good thing I stopped quick.     the only other thing was my...



					weldingweb.com


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## G-ManBart (Jul 12, 2022)

pontiac428 said:


> Homey ain't no clown!
> 
> I have a question for @G-ManBart.  You've had your hands in quite a few Syncro 250DX machines, is it possible to retrofit the pulse and wave features into the vanilla version?  I need to double check the power requirements for the syncro 350 LX (think that's the right alphabets), because that's also an option.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure where you got those numbers, but the 250DX has 310A max output.  I don't recall what the 100% duty cycle is, but I have yet to run into an issue on up to 3/8" thick aluminum and much thicker on steel.  I've set up practice coupons and run 3/8" aluminum piece after piece rotating them so they can cool and haven't hit the duty cycle...most of that was in the 250-275A range max.

You can add the pulser and sequencer kits to most 250DX machines, but there is an age cutoff....around a 2004 model or so when they switched to the angled face and newer look.  The earlier 250DX was more square, all metal and didn't have the black plastic border on the face.  The pulser and sequencer are plug and play boards so it's just pulling the covers and opening up holes in the face plate for the knob shafts...the wiring harnesses are already set up for them.

The pulser is pretty limited at .25 to 10hz.  Compare that to my Everlast which is .1 to 500hz AC and .1 to 250hz DC.  The sequencer seems to be more useful for automatic type processes, or for situations where you can't use a foot pedal or fingertip amperage control.  

The one thing I would say is to stay away from the models with the cooler located inside the machine on the right side.  They call those the "integrated cooler" and they only lasted around three years due to issues.  I've had to replace a bad heat exchanger on one of those and it was a pain to get at, and expensive at around $400.  They are known to leak and faults in them can shut off the machine entirely.  They can be harder to spot, so look for the reservoir cap on the right side rather than the black part that flips out to hold cables.  Or, if it's short and has a water-cooled torch setup, it's probably that style.  The models before and after had a Coolmate 3.5 that was part of the running gear setup, so the cooler was part of the cart, and the welder bolted on top of that...much better setup, if bit taller.

I'll attach a picture of one with the integrated cooler I had...you can just see the cap on the upper right.  Somewhat visible behind it is an older 250DX that was the square style I mentioned above.

You mentioned Lincoln and I'll add one comment about them.  I like the way Lincoln welders work, but I don't like their current service/parts plan.  They essentially don't carry parts for machines past around 10 years old.  Miller still had parts I needed when I was fixing up machines that were 20-30 years old.  They weren't always cheap, but they had them...stuff like a digital display, fan motor, contractor, etc.  I'm guessing Miller will get worse about that over time, but for right now it's an advantage in their favor (in my opinion).


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## MikeInOr (Jul 12, 2022)

G-ManBart said:


> The big difference is that the Primeweld machines are made in China, where the others are U.S. (Miller), Mexico (Lincoln) and Italy (HTP) for the most part.  One thing that often gets missed is that the bigger companies have service centers, trained techs, tech services, and also warehouses with smart parts going back decades in many cases.  That isn't going to be the case with a company like Primeweld.  The reality is, if a Primweld breaks in five years you're just going to buy a replacement rather than be able to fix it.  With the bigger names you have a better chance of being able to get parts and support over time, and that can't be cheap for the companies to maintain.
> 
> I've done a lot of reading about plasma cutters over the past year, and read every review and post I could find about the Primeweld machines.  Much like the TIG, I have yet to see anything bad written about them.  I'm planning to get the CUT60 as it will handle anything I'm likely to run into regularly...still have a big oxy/acetylene setup for anything really thick.



I went for the YesWelder Cut 65DS when it was $405 on sale about a half year ago.  I am VERY pleased with this plasma cutter and can't believe I waited so long to finally buy a plasma cutter.  The Primeweld CUT 60 has an integrated air pressure gauge where the YesWelder CUT 65DS has a pressure gauge that screws on to the back of the machine (Not as nice).  I also picked up a YesWelder mask at the same time that I absolutely LOVE!

I don't think anyone will try to tell you that the Chinese stuff is in the same league as the US built machines... but many of us hobbyists can easily get by with a week or two of down time if our equipment poofs on us, something I wouldn't think that some one that depends on their equipment for their income would be willing to do.

The Prime Weld TIG225X is on my short list of machines to acquire.  I used a friends Chinese TIG with a digital interface to do some practicing.  The digital interface was miserable to set any particular parameter.  All of those intimidating dials on the Prime Weld TIG225X look VERY attractive after using a cheap digital interface.  But I have never used the Prime Weld TIG225X so I could be completely wrong.


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## G-ManBart (Jul 12, 2022)

MikeInOr said:


> The Prime Weld TIG225X is on my short list of machines to acquire.  I used a friends Chinese TIG with a digital interface to do some practicing.  The digital interface was miserable to set any particular parameter.  All of those intimidating dials on the Prime Weld TIG225X look VERY attractive after using a cheap digital interface.  But I have never used the Prime Weld TIG225X so I could be completely wrong.



I'm sure there is a big difference in how easy the digital interface setups are to use when comparing models.  The only inexpensive welder I've used with one is Harbor Freight's new ProTIG 205.  It welded fine but I wasn't thrilled with the digital interface...it wasn't terrible, but wouldn't be how I would build one.

The digital interface on my Everlast is quite easy and only takes a few minutes to get used to.  Essentially, you have one button that you push to go from feature to feature, and one dial to adjust each one as you go.  You just push the button and the LED on the next feature is illuminated, so you know that's what you're adjusting with the dial...set amps, hit the button, set downslope, hit the button, set post-flow, etc.  You can keep pushing the button to get back to the first parameter/feature, or if you don't hit anything for a few seconds it will go back there by itself and all the settings will be locked in.

There is some benefit to being able to really dial in your settings perfectly with a digital readout when you're dealing with critical applications, but the benefit for most of us is that you get a memory function where you can store settings you use frequently...a nice time saver.  I used that when I made a small run of tools that had varying thicknesses and shapes....program 1 for one part, program 2 for another, etc.


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## alloy (Jul 12, 2022)

pontiac428 said:


> Homey ain't no clown!
> You've had your hands in quite a few Syncro 250DX machines, is it possible to retrofit the pulse and wave features into the vanilla version?


This one is listed on FB marketplace.  No pulser, I asked.









						Cowlitz County Classifieds | Facebook
					

*Welcome to Cowlitz County Classifieds* We are the LARGEST Classified Group in Cowlitz County. If you live close go ahead and ask to join! Before you do though read the following.  By joining you...




					www.facebook.com


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## MikeInOr (Jul 12, 2022)

Amazon has their "Prime Days Deals" event right now.  There are a few TIG's on sale.  To my limited knowledge base this one looks like it might be a pretty good deal:  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B..._title_srh_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A56Q5NW2A71YS

200amp LOTOS with digital controls and pulse function for $519.19.  I have not been able to find any reviews on this particular model of LOTOS AC/DC TIG welder.


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## C-Bag (Jul 12, 2022)

As usually happens when jumping in the deep end I don’t know what I don’t know. The Primeweld just slipped down the list and because it’s all analog. I could see how being able to save settings on something that seems to have almost infinite parameters would be very handy. Possibly necessary. The 225 has no memory, that makes both of us


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## AGCB97 (Jul 13, 2022)

MrWhoopee said:


> AHP AlphaTIG 200. Very happy with it. Would buy again.





epanzella said:


> I got an AHP Alpha 200 for $850. I was nervous at first expecting it to quit any second but it's been a few years now and the machine has welded carbon steel, Stainless steel and aluminum with nary a complaint. I would buy one again (but I hope I won't have to)



I've had my AHP Alpha TIG 200 for about  5 years ($700 on Amazon) and think it's great! Before I got a wire feed it's all I used for everything. Welded the frame of my home made tractor with it and done much aluminum of all kinds and thicknesses. I did upgrade the pedal and now have a variety of torches for it.
Aaron


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## Aaron_W (Jul 13, 2022)

C-Bag said:


> As usually happens when jumping in the deep end I don’t know what I don’t know. The Primeweld just slipped down the list and because it’s all analog. I could see how being able to save settings on something that seems to have almost infinite parameters would be very handy. Possibly necessary. The 225 has no memory, that makes both of us



This was a major plus for Miller for me, they have a very user friendly Autoset function, I just set my material, thickness, electrode size and gas, then it picks the correct settings for me which I can then tweak to preference. For some that would be a useless feature but as an inexperienced and only occasional welder that is a big plus. The welder still retains manual control.

Some of the other brands have a similar feature, but Miller seems to stand out in this area making their welders very beginner friendly. They come at a high purchase price though. I really pushed my budget when I bought mine, but at current prices I just wouldn't be able to justify the expense.

Things are changing rapidly, in 2019 there were basically 2 options for a MIG / AC-DC TIG / Stick welder, Miller and Esab, today there are many to pick from at a wide range of pricing. The imports have also really come into their own as well, far more acceptance now than a few years ago. Based on others opinions I limited myself to Hobart, Miller, Lincoln and Esab, today I would have been far more willing to consider one of the import brands. For years I wouldn't consider anything from HF that has a cord, so even I'm a bit surprised to admit there is a decent chance I'd give a HF welder a home if I was buying today.


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## G-ManBart (Jul 13, 2022)

C-Bag said:


> As usually happens when jumping in the deep end I don’t know what I don’t know. The Primeweld just slipped down the list and because it’s all analog. I could see how being able to save settings on something that seems to have almost infinite parameters would be very handy. Possibly necessary. The 225 has no memory, that makes both of us


My Syncrowave 250DX doesn't have any memory...just dials and two digital readouts.  Memory is handy when you're doing repetitive tasks and having to switch between different setups, but that's about it.  More often than not each project is different and you're going to make an educated guess, see what happens and adjust until you're happy.

In reality, for steel or stainless all you're changing on a regular basis is the amperage and maybe the post-flow.  For aluminum you'll change amperage, maybe balance and post-flow.  More often than not, the only thing I change is amperage.

I see AHP has been mentioned, and while I know a couple of people who own them and have had good luck, I would also advise against them.  They're owned by the same people that own Everlast and are in the same building with a different suite number.  Their customer service issues are just as bad as Everlast from what I've seen.


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## dkemppai (Jul 13, 2022)

G-ManBart said:


> My Syncrowave 250DX doesn't have any memory...just dials and two digital readouts.  Memory is handy when you're doing repetitive tasks and having to switch between different setups, but that's about it.  More often than not each project is different and you're going to make an educated guess, see what happens and adjust until you're happy.


Bought an Everlast a couple years back. Intentionally picked a unit with knobs, without memory. Two things drove that. 

1. I usually keep things forever, and I'm more likely to be able to fix a machine with potentiometers 10 years from now than a touch screen. 
2. I hate digging 10 menu layers deep to change a simple setting. This one has all settings as analog knobs on the front panel. Quick and easy!

As for the argument about having a ton of memory settings being nice, it is. Right up until you can't remember what each preset was set for! (Programmable HT oven. Same problem with that!) 

I suppose you could just keep a notebook on top of the machine (which is what I do). But then, you may as well just have an analog machine and a notebook anyway! lol! 

(I guess it's official, I'm getting old and crusty...   ) 

Dan


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## C-Bag (Jul 13, 2022)

Great info, but still all very daunting. Is the auto settings one any of these machines at all useful besides the Miller? i could see a good auto being as useful as a memory in that it would be a good starting place.


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## General Zod (Jul 13, 2022)

The HTP machines do not have auto settings, except for AC for aluminum (on the 301, 313, and 400; the 221 doesn't have auto anything).  They have an Easy AC setting that locks out the adjustability: sets AC balance to 75%, AC Freq 100Hz, and equal amplitudes for EN & EP.  For anything else, you better know what the heck you're doing. 

What I like about the newer HTPs is that even though the screen options take you through a few screens, no feature is hidden to be able to access it.  Yes there are a couple things that you have to hold down a couple buttons for a few seconds at a time, but that is more for recalling/storing jobs into the memory and things of that nature, _not _for accessing relatively important features.  But if you know the ins-n-out's of TIG welding and know what you are doing and know what you want your settings at, accessing the important settings is relatively easy.


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## dkemppai (Jul 13, 2022)

C-Bag said:


> Great info, but still all very daunting. Is the auto settings one any of these machines at all useful besides the Miller? i could see a good auto being as useful as a memory in that it would be a good starting place.


I'm not a professional welder. I don't even play on on TV! lol. 

In my (limited) experience, when learning to weld you are better off learning what each of the settings are and what they do. That is, it's more helpful long term to learn about the welding process and the appropriate settings than just hit a button and strike up and arc, then and see what happens.  Auto settings might be nice, but once you have a feel for welding you're probably going to be tweaking them anyway. 

I always knew welding was a skill. But after learning some, I have a lot more appreciation for what it takes to make a good weld. There are no shortcuts. 

Dan


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## Aaron_W (Jul 13, 2022)

C-Bag said:


> Great info, but still all very daunting. Is the auto settings one any of these machines at all useful besides the Miller? i could see a good auto being as useful as a memory in that it would be a good starting place.



I don't know, as most of my info is dated a few years since I bought in 2019. Esab and Lincoln both had similar features, but different... Hard to explain except to say the Miller Autoset seemed more tuned towards inexperienced welders. Lincoln and Esab more a convenience feature. In reality all the Miller Autoset is, is the recommended settings you would get flipping through the manual.

Inverter machines are very new technology. My older welding text book was written in 2011 and only made brief mention of invertor machines. I had to upgrade to the most recent edition for class and there is now a large section on invertor machines. All welders are benefitting from invertor technology, but TIG seems to be the process which is gaining the most from it. MIG and stick it is largely a size / weight thing, but the new TIG machines can do things that were simply not possible with the old transformer technology.



dkemppai said:


> I'm not a professional welder. I don't even play on on TV! lol.
> 
> In my (limited) experience, when learning to weld you are better off learning what each of the settings are and what they do. That is, it's more helpful long term to learn about the welding process and the appropriate settings than just hit a button and strike up and arc, then and see what happens.  Auto settings might be nice, but once you have a feel for welding you're probably going to be tweaking them anyway.
> 
> ...



I like the autoset because it doesn't hide what the machine is doing, you see exactly how it is set, and can adjust from there to tweak the arc to your preferred settings. It is not a black box or arbitrary number as you see with some cheaper welders.

It is really not much different from flipping through the manual to see how to set the machine up for your weld, it just lets you skip the flipping through the manual part so you can get right to work. If you weld everyday or at least every week you probably wouldn't get a lot from it, but when you are like me and weld a couple times a year it is a very nice feature and lets me get right to the welding instead of having to recall how many amps per .01" of metal (and hope I remember right) or consulting charts (after I remember where I left them).


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## BladesIIB (Jul 13, 2022)

I am not a TIG expert, only jumping in here because I was looking at buying a TIG last year and never did but reading another similar thread on this forum there was another brand thrown in the mix that I have not seem come up in this thread - The Fronius Magicwave.  I have a friend with a Miller Dynasty and doing my research last year everything I found showed the Fronius was a better options.  To be clear, I never bought either but if you were considering a Dynasty, I would encourage you to read up on the Fronius Magicwave.  Seemed like a great machine.


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## koenbro (Jul 13, 2022)

BladesIIB said:


> I am not a TIG expert, only jumping in here because I was looking at buying a TIG last year and never did but reading another similar thread on this forum there was another brand thrown in the mix that I have not seem come up in this thread - The Fronius Magicwave. I have a friend with a Miller Dynasty and doing my research last year everything I found showed the Fronius was a better options. To be clear, I never bought either but if you were considering a Dynasty, I would encourage you to read up on the Fronius Magicwave. Seemed like a great machine.



Isn’t Fronius very expensive? How much is the Magicwave?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## DavidR8 (Jul 13, 2022)

koenbro said:


> Isn’t Fronius very expensive? How much is the Magicwave?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Wowser! That Fronius is $6500 CDN...$7000 USD








						Fronius iWave 230i (Magicwave) Water-Cooled TIG Welding Machine Package (49,0400,0032)- FREE SHIPPING!
					

AS SEEN AT FABTECH CHICAGO 2019! In-Stock; Ready to ship today before 3pm Central!  We don't charge sales tax outside of Illinois, Indiana, Michigan and Wisconsin!  **Important Shipping Notice: This machine package MUST ship freight to a freight-capable business address or an additional $500.00...



					shopweldingsupplies.com
				



Oh wait in the details I see that price also includes a full-time, certified welder


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## BladesIIB (Jul 13, 2022)

koenbro said:


> Isn’t Fronius very expensive? How much is the Magicwave?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Yes pricey as David posted below. But the OP was looking at the Miller Dynasty and the price is comparable to that.


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## pontiac428 (Jul 13, 2022)

Yep, it's in my price range.  I'd like to spend around 7k for a used Dynasty, but I'd probably be happy with a new HTP Invertig 30X.  My biggest issue is that I earned my money on the old dollar, and everything today is in some new currency that I suspect is partly made up by the man with the price sticker gun.  I never thought the buy-in for a good commercial machine would be 10k-12k; thinking about it gives me a case of the vapors and the ****s at the same time.

My favorite tools are the commercial workhorses, whether it's a hammer or a welder or a postal scale.  Usually they cost more up front, but are reparable and come with good support.  I try to buy commercial/industrial over consumer/hobby grade on tools like this.  Some people have shiny cars, some have horses, I have my shop.  When I'm not working, that's where I spend my time.  I don't have a lot of friends or take vacations much anymore, so this is where I can focus my efforts, clear my head, and return to calibrated zero.  I also am planning to retire early, and want to get my shop set up for the final push of glorious production before my wife finally has to call in the estate sale brokers.



C-Bag said:


> The 225 has no memory, that makes both of us


That's true, but it's like driving a stick.  You might stumble with a new car the first time you drive it, but soon you know how to pick the right gear by sound/vibration feedback alone.



General Zod said:


> But if you know the ins-n-out's of TIG welding and know what you are doing and know what you want your settings at, accessing the important settings is relatively easy.


Just like that! 

 Hey, @General Zod, I wanted to ask more about the HTP coolers.  Looks like they have had a few units over the years, and have two at the moment that run on the Invertig 301:  the current version of the traditional cooler with the flow alarm built in, or the sensored on-demand version that loops back to the integrated controller in the welder.  My Miller has a 1/2 hp motor and a TC pump, but it's noisy and the volumetric flow is empirically weak.  The basic HTP is less substantial, though it has enough radiator to do the job and is otherwise clean, but you pointed out some of the issues people have had and I did follow the link you posted on it (thx).  I wasn't completely sure which unit had what problem, so what I'm asking is which of the current coolers are more up to the job (I often weld for hours on end and don't like stopping when I'm in the zone- hence my focus on duty cycle).

Whoo, have I been slammed at work and home this week.  I want to respond to some of the comments in the previous pages, but I'll have to try later.  Thanks for floating this thread, lots of input here!


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## General Zod (Jul 14, 2022)

pontiac428 said:


> Hey, @General Zod, I wanted to ask more about the HTP coolers.  Looks like they have had a few units over the years, and have two at the moment that run on the Invertig 301:  the current version of the traditional cooler with the flow alarm built in, or the sensored on-demand version that loops back to the integrated controller in the welder.  My Miller has a 1/2 hp motor and a TC pump, but it's noisy and the volumetric flow is empirically weak.  The basic HTP is less substantial, though it has enough radiator to do the job and is otherwise clean, but you pointed out some of the issues people have had and I did follow the link you posted on it (thx).  I wasn't completely sure which unit had what problem, so what I'm asking is which of the current coolers are more up to the job (I often weld for hours on end and don't like stopping when I'm in the zone- hence my focus on duty cycle).
> 
> Whoo, have I been slammed at work and home this week.  I want to respond to some of the comments in the previous pages, but I'll have to try later.  Thanks for floating this thread, lots of input here!


I have the older coolers (1 from 2013 and one from 2015) and aside from replacing the hoses and the 240V contactor in one of them, I haven't had any other issues.  I don't think it was me who posted the link, I think it was Gmanbart.  In any case I also have the smart cooler on the big TIG.  Which are more up to the job?  _What _job?   "Welding for hours" means nothing to me.  You could be welding for hours @ 50A for all I assume.  If that is the case then you don't need water cooled anything.  But I digress on purpose for a reason:  In TIG you can never obscure details, because that is where the devil is hiding --  but if you will be doing lots of thick aluminum where the coolant has to extract more heat from the TIG torch head, I'd say the smart cooler is tougher.  I asked HTP to ask Stel how much the smart cooler can take, and they replied back that they have tested it up to 550A @ 35% duty cycle without issues.  You may want to call HTP and ask them what the standard cooler is rated at.


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## epanzella (Jul 14, 2022)

AGCB97 said:


> I've had my AHP Alpha TIG 200 for about  5 years ($700 on Amazon) and think it's great! Before I got a wire feed it's all I used for everything. Welded the frame of my home made tractor with it and done much aluminum of all kinds and thicknesses. I did upgrade the pedal and now have a variety of torches for it.
> Aaron


Tell me about your foot pedal. The stock one is not so great.


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## G-ManBart (Jul 14, 2022)

epanzella said:


> Tell me about your foot pedal. The stock one is not so great.


I don't know which pedal he went with, but SSC Controls makes a fantastic pedal for pretty much any modern machine.  I have one on my Everlast and Miller.  They are wider, lower and have a smaller angle so your foot is in a more comfortable position (in my opinion).  I tested the SSC pedal next to the factory pedal on my Miller and had my wife read off the minimum and maximum amperages while I was welding and got the same range with both pedals.

SSC sometimes sells "blemished" pedals on eBay and I've gone that route one time....couldn't find a mark on it anywhere and it was less expensive.  A nice thing is SSC is a U.S. company and the pedals are made in Ohio.









						TIG Welding Foot Control Pedals - SSC Controls
					

Our TIG welding foot control pedals are built tough and on sale at great prices. Made in USA with OEM components and backed by SSC's quality and service.



					ssccontrols.com


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## General Zod (Jul 14, 2022)

As nice as pedals are, TIG Buttons are the way to go, IMO.


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## AGCB97 (Jul 15, 2022)

epanzella said:


> Tell me about your foot pedal. The stock one is not so great.


As  @G-ManBart said (post #69) mine is a SSC model C910-0725.



General Zod said:


> As nice as pedals are, TIG Buttons are the way to go, IMO.


Not sure what you mean by "TIG Buttons" but I also have a 'add-on' thumb switch on one of the torches. Great for tacking and when you have to lay under a vehicle  

Aaron


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## General Zod (Jul 15, 2022)

AGCB97 said:


> As  @G-ManBart said (post #69) mine is a SSC model C910-0725.
> 
> 
> Not sure what you mean by "TIG Buttons" but I also have a 'add-on' thumb switch on one of the torches. Great for tacking and when you have to lay under a vehicle
> ...


It's a miniature "foot pedal" that is mounted directly on the TIG torch, and instead of a rocking lever acting on a potentiometer, there is a pressure-sensing button you push with your finger to vary the amps, that works together with an electronics box to send the appropriate voltage divided signal to the machine.


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## AGCB97 (Jul 15, 2022)

General Zod said:


> It's a miniature "foot pedal" that is mounted directly on the TIG torch, and instead of a rocking lever acting on a potentiometer, there is a pressure-sensing button you push with your finger to vary the amps, that works together with an electronics box to send the appropriate voltage divided signal to the machine.


I've looked at and read about these but not knowing how good the info and advertising was, have so far not ordered.
Would you as a user and pro recommend a brand or model? Thanks
Aaron


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## dkemppai (Jul 15, 2022)

AGCB97 said:


> I've looked at and read about these but not knowing how good the info and advertising was, have so far not ordered.
> Would you as a user and pro recommend a brand or model? Thanks
> Aaron


I'll throw my $.02 here... 

I think there is only one brand, and I think they're only available for select machines. However there are other rotary amperage controls available. Wheel, or track type slider control units. 

Thought about fitting a tig button to my TIG. But the reality is most of my TIG is on a bench, and I really like the pedal. A lot of that has to do with time behind GRS engraving equipment, which is also pedal controlled. For me the pedal fits my 'natural' workflow better. Plus, I think the pressure thing would be odd. My hands are usually full when trying to TIG...  

For those odd times I need to TIG off the bench, I just stick the on/off button back on the torch and set the settings close from the start. HF start makes that work pretty well. Well, that and the ramp up and down settings. 

All that said, I would like to try one sometime. (I'd like to tear one apart, and see what sort of strain gauge/pressure sensor they are using, and how the electronics are built, etc...) 

Dan


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## General Zod (Jul 15, 2022)

Ssc Controls makes one, but it is stepped and only does 4 discrete output stages: 25-50-75-100%.  Some like it,  but I prefer my TIG Button because it has an infinitely variable output just like a foot pedal.  Check out www.tigcontrol.com or www.6061.com . I have yet to use my foot pedals again after getting TIG Buttons. Oh, and I'm not a pro, but I do have two of them and they're awesome.


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## G-ManBart (Jul 19, 2022)

I'm not a pro either, but I sure want a TIG Button!  There are plenty of times even welding on the bench when the pedal is a pain to work with and something on the torch works better.  I have an amptrol with the rotating wheel to start the arc and vary amperage, and have tried a few other kinds (sliding bar, wheel oriented 90*) and I'm not thrilled with any of them...the one I kept was pretty much free so I can't complain too much!  After reading a number of reviews from people who own TIG Buttons, I'm positive I'd like one better and it's on my list of things to add sooner or later.  Everyone says that after a very short period of time you don't really think about it and varying the amperage just sort of happens naturally.


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## dkemppai (Jul 19, 2022)

G-ManBart said:


> I'm not a pro either, but I sure want a TIG Button!  There are plenty of times even welding on the bench when the pedal is a pain to work with and something on the torch works better.  I have an amptrol with the rotating wheel to start the arc and vary amperage, and have tried a few other kinds (sliding bar, wheel oriented 90*) and I'm not thrilled with any of them...the one I kept was pretty much free so I can't complain too much!  After reading a number of reviews from people who own TIG Buttons, I'm positive I'd like one better and it's on my list of things to add sooner or later.  Everyone says that after a very short period of time you don't really think about it and varying the amperage just sort of happens naturally.



Is your Amptrol (or what ever it is) like these?  





						Linear Amperage Control | Remote TIG Hand AMP Control
					

The linear remote amperage control provides welding power source contactor on-off, activate gas and is available with velcro® straps or built into the handle.




					www.ckworldwide.com
				








						WHEEL REMOTE AMPERAGE CONTROL
					

The wheel amperage control utilizes a spring-loaded wheel for automatic return to OFF position. This remote amperage control is available in a hook & Loop




					www.ckworldwide.com
				








						ROTARY REMOTE AMPERAGE CONTROL
					

The rotary remote amperage control utilizes a tank track style system for full amperage control and gas solenoid activation. Handle styles include Hook & Loop f




					www.ckworldwide.com
				




I think trying to balance torch control, filler rod, and pressure on a button might make my head explode...  lol.

Honestly tho, I'd like some seat time with all of the options to see which is more intuitive. Currently for those days when I just can't use a pedal the straight switch gets me by. 

Dan


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## G-ManBart (Jul 19, 2022)

dkemppai said:


> I think trying to balance torch control, filler rod, and pressure on a button might make my head explode...  lol.
> 
> Honestly tho, I'd like some seat time with all of the options to see which is more intuitive. Currently for those days when I just can't use a pedal the straight switch gets me by.
> 
> Dan





dkemppai said:


> Is your Amptrol (or what ever it is) like these?
> 
> I think trying to balance torch control, filler rod, and pressure on a button might make my head explode...  lol.
> 
> ...



The amptrol I kept is a bit different...they call it east/west because the wheel turns perpendicular to the axis of the torch.  I found that easier to move with my thumb than the other types.  It has a detent in the off position, so you push past that and the arc starts, then just rotate more to the right for higher amperage and vise versa.  It stays where you leave it so you can get the arc started, set the heat and then ignore it if you don't have to change amperage.  Then you just rotate left to wind down and past the detent the arc stops.



			https://www.millerwelds.com/accessories/remote-controls/controls-wired-fingertip-m30103#!/?product-options-title=rotary-fingertip-control-east-west-14-pin-plug-151086


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## pontiac428 (Jul 19, 2022)

dkemppai said:


> I think trying to balance torch control, filler rod, and pressure on a button might make my head explode...  lol.



That's where I'm at with it.  My hands are doing enough!  That would be like only holding your filler rod with chopsticks.  I've only ever used foot pedals.  My philosophy is if you're not trying to hold some bass-ackwards body position, you're not really welding.  It's bragging rights if you can do it all while standing with one foot.  Uber so if you can run the pedal with a knee, elbow, or chin...


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## General Zod (Jul 19, 2022)

It does take a little extra concentration in order to channel the dexterity in your fingers without transforming your whole hand/wrist combo into a kung-fu grip, but just like TIG welding itself, no one was born knowing how to do it; we all had to practice to achieve some level of competency.  It's the same with the TIG Button.  Gotta practice.


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## G-ManBart (Jul 19, 2022)

General Zod said:


> It does take a little extra concentration in order to channel the dexterity in your fingers without transforming your whole hand/wrist combo into a kung-fu grip, but just like TIG welding itself, no one was born knowing how to do it; we all had to practice to achieve some level of competency.  It's the same with the TIG Button.  Gotta practice.


Yeah, I think people make too much of this.  The filler rod hand has to move, hold the filler and feed the filler rod all at the same time.  This is just holding the torch, moving the torch and pushing the button, so the same number of things as the filler hand.  I haven't used a TIG Button, but it didn't take me long to be able to use the kind with the rotary dial and that was extremely handy when doing oddball out of position welding where a foot pedal simply wouldn't work.  Okay, I have used a foot pedal between my knees while lying down, but I'm not going to do that again!


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## General Zod (Aug 9, 2022)

I dunno if you had made up your mind or not, but I just received this sales flyer in my email earlier today.  Seems they have a lot of stock to move as they've been having quite a few sales going on.  Given Miller and Lincoln price increases as of late, makes them an even better deal & value for the dollar!  This made me check what the comparable Millers cost.   The new Dynasty 300dx machine only is $9,600.  Granted they do have extra features, but for _literally _less than half of that an Invertig 301 is in the same class of machine.  Heck, you could get a complete Invertig 400 w/ cart and Smart Cooler _and_ a 30HP rotary phase converter for roughly that much!


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