# Clausing 111 spindle bearings leaking



## magu (Nov 30, 2021)

Hi all, I picked up a lovely clausing 111 (small world, I had the same model as my first lathe) over the summer and only recently started getting to use it. I noticed that almost as soon as I added oil to the spindle bearings (both sides) the oil would run out and the bearings would begin heating up. On examination, the oil was coming out between the spindle itself and the screw in nut/cover so I removed them to look for a botched seal. As shown in the pictures, there is a groove where it seems like a packing or o-ring would go on the spindle, but nothing was there. These grooves are also shown in the manual but are never called out and nothing is shown in them or listed on the bom. Does anyone know what should be there that isn't?


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## Aukai (Nov 30, 2021)

Rope seals maybe?


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## magu (Nov 30, 2021)

Aukai said:


> Rope seals maybe?


I was thinking that may be. I think it would be a bit old to have rubber o-rings, but I could be wrong.


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## benmychree (Nov 30, 2021)

Lathe spindle bearings seldom use seals because chips and other debris would quickly destroy them, they generally rely on clearance fits or slingers.  Perhaps you may have overfilled the oil?


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## magu (Nov 30, 2021)

benmychree said:


> Lathe spindle bearings seldom use seals because chips and other debris would quickly destroy them, they generally rely on clearance fits or slingers.  Perhaps you may have overfilled the oil?


I am certainly open to the idea that I am wrong and there should be nothing. There are two reasons I don't think I have overfilled the bearings:


Looking at the cross section of the spindle there would be very little oil that would settle below the leak point when not being slung about
While no mention is made of how much oil to use, mention is made f oil cups at the fill hole (12 o'clock) which I would think would simply drain out. 
Again, I could be wrong, this is just my reasoning.


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## woodchucker (Nov 30, 2021)

any chance a felt goes in there? I have round felts that I got when I rebuilt my SB9.. they were in the kit and I needed them for many of the shaftings that had round felts to hold oil on the gears bore.. The shaft had a hole to deliver oil to the felts which were perpendicular to the shaft.
so they were constantly rubbing...  could be that felt goes in there.


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## benmychree (Nov 30, 2021)

Antifriction bearings require little oil to function properly, also too much oil can cause overheating.


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## markba633csi (Nov 30, 2021)

Seems that they may have intended a very small amount of heavy oil or light grease, and a little bit of leakage would be acceptable
seeing as how there are no oil cups to fill
-M


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## magu (Nov 30, 2021)

woodchucker said:


> any chance a felt goes in there? I have round felts that I got when I rebuilt my SB9.. they were in the kit and I needed them for many of the shaftings that had round felts to hold oil on the gears bore.. The shaft had a hole to deliver oil to the felts which were perpendicular to the shaft.
> so they were constantly rubbing...  could be that felt goes in there.


Possibly, I was thinking rope seals, but they're substantiatively the same.


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## magu (Nov 30, 2021)

benmychree said:


> Antifriction bearings require little oil to function properly, also too much oil can cause overheating.


Perhaps that was part of the problem.

Because I work at home and am easily distracted... I went and loosened the take up nut on the back side of the spindle by about a 1/3 of a turn. It was tight enough that I had to drive it loose with a punch after backing out the setscrew. There had been no detectable spindle movement, after the 1/3 turn it is maybe half a thou so part of the problem may have been too much preload.


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## magu (Nov 30, 2021)

markba633csi said:


> Seems that they may have intended a very small amount of heavy oil or light grease, and a little bit of leakage would be acceptable
> seeing as how there are no oil cups to fill
> -M


Per the manual it's a medium oil, There are supposed to be cups, I just haven't made any yet. Still, that may be the intended design.


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## markba633csi (Nov 30, 2021)

The later model Atlas 12" I have has oil cups but no seals.  Designed to weep oil slowly down into the races and be periodically refilled.
Messy yes but that's how it was done then, apparently.  Mid 60s vintage machine
-Mark


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## sdelivery (Dec 1, 2021)

That is called a labyrinth. 
One or more groves for the oil to sling or rooster tail off off.
Most spindles rarely use seals.
To high of an oil level is usually the cause but the wrong oil, excessive clearances, improperly adjusted bearings,missing parts can lead to excessive oil leakage.


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## sdelivery (Dec 1, 2021)

Looking at the drawing I can see where just a little oil would be enough and just a little more is to much and leak. 
I would consider sealed bearings.


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## COMachinist (Dec 3, 2021)

No the 100 series does not have main spindle seals. In fact the 4800 Atlas/Clausing do not have any seals. The bearings use drip cup oilers that keep the bearings well oiled and clean. I have finally found  rear bearing for my Clausing 100 Mk3. And will have it running again soon. these tapered roller bearings are hard to find in grade 3 any more. How ever I got 2 NOS left on the self of a supplier. You could probably use a standard grade  bearing in these lathes. These days standard bearings are as good or better than class 3 bearings in the 40’s. Somebody suggested high speed Nascar wheel bearings  would work just fine. A friend of mine used high speed standard grade tapered bearing in a Chinese mill and measured less than a .001 tir. You need to take into account modern steels and automated manufacturing today.
CH


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## Richard King 2 (Dec 3, 2021)

I used to see felt like Woodchucker said.   Another cure and I don't see if your machine has oilcups, but in thr old days you saw felt or pipe cleaner type wicks that let small drops of oil move slowly into the bearings or they had adjustable drip oilers in the pipe threads.


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## Richard King 2 (Dec 3, 2021)

I see on page 6 and 10 may help  http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/182/4966.pdf
Oil chart, says oil bearing weekly  http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/182/13746.pdf

It does look like they are for oil distribution like sdelivery said. http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/182/13747.pdf


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## wa5cab (Dec 6, 2021)

To get back to the original problem of oil leaking out, too much oil is messy and may indicate a missing or defective seal, but no oil will ruin a ball, roller or sleeve bearing in just a few minutes.


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## magu (Dec 8, 2021)

sdelivery said:


> Looking at the drawing I can see where just a little oil would be enough and just a little more is to much and leak.
> I would consider sealed bearings.


Can you get sealed cup/cone timken bearings? That would be nice in a number of applications, I just haven't run across them.


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## sdelivery (Dec 8, 2021)

Sorry. Not in taper roller / ball bearings


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## Richard King 2 (Dec 8, 2021)

I was researching an American made lathe for my face-book forum and that machine uses Timken bearings with side spacers with seals on the spindle to hold in the oil.  Pretty slick idea.   Scroll down the pictures and they have the spindle apart.   




__





						Bamford-Chase Lathe
					

Machine Tool Archive, lathes.co.uk, Tony Griffiths



					www.lathes.co.uk


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## magu (Dec 9, 2021)

As a bit of a follow-up incase anyone stumbles across this thread down the road. Loosening the lock nut seemed to fix the issue. After putting everything back together, the spindle now spins much more freely and whatever amount of oil there is space for seems to be sufficient. I ran the lathe for about an hour and the bearing areas had almost no heat build up.


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## WEL0058 (Dec 13, 2021)

magu,

I also have a Clausing 100 lathe.  Have pulled my spindle out.  There is no need for spindle seals.  If you overfill the spindle bearings the oil level will self-adjust ;<)   I did have some leaking around the bearing retain thread.  Assemble with little aviation gasket cement on the retainer threads.  

Read the Clausing manual on the proper bearing preloading.   I like the instructions in the 1957 manual since it is measurable.










Bob G.


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## FlyChips1923 (Nov 23, 2022)

I see this is over a year old but I am new here so I will add my thoughts. I own the same lathe and during its restoration noticed the lack of seals. I did a lot of research and will share what I learned. These old machines rely on what is called the lost oil principle. It short, you put it in and it runs out. The threaded bearing cover retains just enough oil to coat the lower portion of the bearings. Whatever is above the shaft opening in the bearing cover runs out. This prevents the bearing from "swimming in oil which might cause drag and heat. Clausing recommended adding just a few drops though the threaded plugs above the bearing before each use. This will keep fresh oil in these reservoirs. Happy machining.


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