# When did you?



## jwmay (Jul 31, 2021)

I was curious for those who bought an "entry level" milling machine: When did you decide to buy something else? What drove your decision?
For context, I've had a Grizzly 8x29 round column mill/drill for a few years. I don't use it very much. In fact, I don't like using it. It is accurate enough. It's newish and clean. But belt changes for different speeds are downright laborious. Moving the head up and down is also a big friction point. I don't have a lot of time for this hobby, so minutes count. I've bought some DRO's for it. I'm constantly thinking about a power feed too. I've also bought an er40 to r8 adapter because tool changes were starting to annoy me.  So as I continue to nickel and dime myself into a really handy sub-optimal machine, I am wondering if I'm putting lipstick on a pig. No offense to those who have and like their round column machines.  It just seems like using one is pretty well no fun for me. I personally despise improving/modifying a "new" machine.  Seems like if a person is going to the trouble of adding Dro's, power feeds, and vfd's with 3 phase motors, it might be better to just cut bait before the money is spent, and put it back for a more user friendly machine. So _if you had one_ and got something different, I'd like to read your reasons why. And also are you happy with what you got to replace it? How about about some pics?


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## Aukai (Jul 31, 2021)

I have the G0755 it has been very good, but my shadow, and I have been having discussions about getting a knee mill that would be a bit more substantial. It want's a Bridgeport.....


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## Ulma Doctor (Jul 31, 2021)

I have limited experience with round column machines, but enough to know that I don’t care for them. 
I learned on a BP M-head, so that has set the bar high, for me.
I have seen excellent work produced from RC milling machines, but you will burn up minutes fiddling with them.

I have purchased a couple vertical/horizontal mills on the 726 (currently) and 728 envelopes- these have proven to be very capable machines- i enjoy operating these machines, but they don’t have powered feeds- they can be upgraded but I never found it to be a deal breaker 

I have owned a Wells/Index machine that feared no metal-full power on all axes.
It weighed about 2800lbs

At my shop at work, I currently have a BP-J1, with power feeds on spindle and table- this machine has performed beyond expectations. I wouldn’t be changing anytime soon.

if i were to only have one choice for a home shop, the VHM 728 with power table feed would be and is my choice


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## Bi11Hudson (Jul 31, 2021)

Not exactly "on topic" for the question you're asking.. I have a couple of lathes, a Craftsman 12x36 and an Asian 9x19. And an Atlas shaper, which answered for most of the work where milling was required, I don't have a machine shop as such. I build models, sometimes out of metal, that require irregular mill work. 

A while back, I encountered a situation where I was drilling plastic, acrylic, for tap size 2-56. A Nr 50 drill as I recall, it may have been a 49. The drill press ran far too fast, the drill was melting the inside of the hole.  I could thread, but it was hit or miss and I needed a usable tapped hole. I purchased a Horrible Fright "mini" mill so I could get the lower speeds for drilling without melting. I have tried a couple of times to do milling, but for one reason or another it never really worked out. That may well be because I am not as good a machinist as I like to think I am. It still is set up as a low speed drill press. I fitted a small 0-1/4 chuck so it takes less room than the included chuck.

I did acquire an Atlas horizontal mill later. As much because I had the "hots" for that particular machine than any particular need. Having acquired tooling for it, the machine has done much of the work I used to do on the shaper. Not so much because I needed it, the machine showed up on eBay at a price I was willing to pay. I purchased it, rewired the motor and installed a reversing switch. It was dirty and "well used", I cleaned it up and refitted anything that needed it. And slapped on a coat of rattle can gray.

I would like to get a Bridgeport or clone, but my shop is in a wooden building where the floor wouldn't support such a macinne. Then there is space, actually lack of it. And it would be hard to justify, the Atlas and my lathe can do the milling I run across. 

.


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## Boswell (Jul 31, 2021)

I started with a Grizzly G0704. It worked fine for what it was and I learned a lot about feeds and speeds and fixturing and more. However after a couple of years, I grew tired of the small work envelope, especially the Z clearance.  I sold the G0704 and bought a precision Mathews PM45M-CNC and it has been GREAT.


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## mmcmdl (Jul 31, 2021)

I started out with Bridgeports back in the late 70s . Never ran anything smaller so can't comment on the smaller mills . I've owned other knee mills , Kondias , Laguns , Indexs , etc but keep coming home to the BPs . Preference I guess , but there's nothing a well tooled BP can't do in my opinion .


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## davidpbest (Jul 31, 2021)

I started with an Rong Fu (the real one, not a clone) RF-45 benchtop mill with square column, power downfeed on the quill, 12-speed geared head (the motor was two speed).  I insisted on a square column to ensure consistent alignment after repositioning the head.  I can't imagine dealing with a round column mill/drill, but I know poeple who do.  At the time, I was searching for an "industrial quality" drill press and the mill/drill seemed like it offered the facilities I wanted.  Within a year, I was using it more frequently to mill aluminum.  By year three I was doing low volume production of small stainless steel parts.  Ten years after I purchased the Rong Fu, I decided to upgrade to a knee mill - I was driven to it in order to get power feed on all 3 axis (something that wasn't feasible on the RF-45), and to increase material removal rates.  That was in 2015.  To this day, I have mixed feelings about the so called "upgrade".  The RF-45 was in fact substantially more rigid, although _*friends*_ who have bought current-day clones in the same or larger weight category are not impressed with the rigidity compared to something like a PM-935.  But I do like the convenience of a power drawbar, and the additional feeders on Y and Z, and I'm generally happy with the machine.  You can see the knee mill I bought and how I customized it by _*clicking here*_. If you want more background or details on my decision, DM me. Always happy to help.


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## Jake P (Jul 31, 2021)

I was recently guided by David to a very sweet deal on an original Rong Fu-45 (made in 2011) with power down feed.

Now this is my first metal working machine, so take this with that in mind.

I've been working with it for about a month now and I am very impressed with the overall quality and precision of this mill.  The only reason I can see wanting to upgrade from this would be if I were to find myself limited by the capacity of the machine in the x, y and z axis.  It seems to be a very capable machine for its size.  

If you can find a good deal on an older RF-45 you might want to seriously consider it.  Just my .02


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## hman (Aug 1, 2021)

I bought my first mill, a new HF 44994 mini, in ~2008. I'd retired from Hewlett-Packard, where I played "engineer" and designed assembly line equipment.  Sending drawings out for machining was fun, but I never really realized how much it cost.  When I wanted some machning done for myself, I came to a rude awakening.  So I bought the mill, about $500 or so at the time, and started "saving money on machining" (famous last words!)  I still have and still use that mill, especially when I have a setup on my other one that I don't want to mess with.

I bought my second mill, a used Grizzly RF-30 clone, about 5 years later.  That was mainly for the sake of increased capacity, plus improved rigidity.

Bought a small CNC mill, a refurbished DynaMyte DM2400 retrofit with Centroid Acorn and new steppers, from a local friend in 2019.  Wanted to learn all about CAM, G-code, etc. Still learning!

My most recent mill purchase was in August of 2020 - a PM 835S.  I wanted something "brand new," as well as more rigid, more versatile, and increased capacity over the round column.  LOVE it!  I sold the Grizzly as soon as I had the PM fully set up.

Belt changes - Yup, what a drag!  The HF and DM both came with variable speed motors.  And I retrofit both the Grizzly and the PM with VFDs and 3 phase motors.  On both of these, I found myself doing about 95% of everything with one "sweet spot" belt setting.  Of course, the PM does have a "back gear," which I use for tapping, etc.

Collets - The DM spindle has an ER-16 taper.  I have a handful of ER16 collets with a solid ER-compatible end that fit into the spindle.  This allowing pre-measuring tool heights and makes tool changes easier.  All the other mills I've owned have used R8.  Aside: at the time I bought the HF, I chose it over the similar Grizzly because Grizzly only came with an MT3 spindle.  I splurged on the PM and got a power drawbar.

DRO - This was one of the first accessories I added to the HF.  Finding it indispensable, I quickly installed one on the Grizzly soon after purchase.  I ordered the PM with factory installed DRO.

Power feed - I retrofit the HF with a LMS power feed.  The Grizzly came with a non-working power feed, which I repaired.  I bought the PM with X power feed, and I use a drill motor adapter to "power" the knee up and down.

Bottom line answer to what I think is your main question - I did spend quite a bit of effort, as well as some money, getting the Grizzly round column set up to my satisfaction.  It was a good, workable machine and I did make a bunch of good parts with it.  I suppose I might have kept it if I had the space.  But then one fine day I checked my machine budget and decided to go for a brand new "real" mill.  So there was indeed a large element of "impulse buy" in the purchase decision.

PS - I'm friends with the guy who bought the Grizzly.  He's continuing to make good stuff with it.


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## projectnut (Aug 1, 2021)

A few years before retirement I knew I wanted my own machine shop.  I was familiar with Tree brand mills and the Bridgeport series I machines since we had dozens of them in several machine shops throughout the company.  My first choice was a Tree 2UVR.  They're considerably heavier than the Bridgeport's, and have (in my opinion) a nicer collet system.

I looked for over 2 years and passed on over a dozen because they were either too worn or way over priced.  In the end I found a Bridgeport Series I machine from a local high school in good condition and at a good price.  I still love the Tree machines, but they weren't in the cards for me at that time.

I've had the Bridgeport about 20 years and it's done everything I've asked of it.  It's a stretch (literally) for us short guys to change collets, but overall the machine has been well worth the money.  In that time I don't think I've put $100.00 in repair parts, but I have spent several thousand on tooling, a power feed, and a DRO.  In my opinion Bridgeport's are the most economical of the bunch.  Tooling is relatively inexpensive and plentiful.  Should you need repair or replacement parts they too are readily available and not overly expensive.

At times I still yearn for a shorter, stouter Tree machine.  They are now more plentiful and less expensive in the past.  The only downsides are the cost and availability of parts and tooling.  Since they aren't made anymore parts are getting more expensive and tooling is harder to find.  Having said that I passed on a 2UVR last year for lack of space.  It was offered to my by a local shop for $500.00 because they too were having space constraints.


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## Razzle (Aug 1, 2021)

For a different point of view I have a sieg x2d minimill. I bought it because it was what I could afford and I am new and still learning. But I enjoy modifying, tweaking and rebuilding my machines. It helps me learn and gives me intimate knowledge of the machine and it's limitations. 
If/when I outgrow it I will probably get something bigger, but I will still end up buying a 'project' machine whether used or new.
If you don't enjoy working on your machine as part of your time in the shop then you should get something better if you can afford it. 
I totally understand the time in the shop limitations and if I didn't enjoy working on the machine as part of the hobby I would get the best I could afford.
Your shop time is valuable and you should spend it doing things that you want to do, not things that you have to do.

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk


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## RJSakowski (Aug 1, 2021)

My first mill was a private labeled RF30 clone that I bought in the '80's.  I bought my next mill when I retired; a Tormach 770.  It was purchased not to replace the old mill/drill but because of its CNC capability.

As I look back on projects run on the old mill, I am amazed at what I was able to do with tha hunk of iron.  It had its shortcomings but with a little ingenuity, there were workarounds.  Without a doubt, adding a three axis DRO to the mill was the most enabling upgrade.  I did that some twenty years after I first bought the mill.

The second upgrade came about after I purchased the CNC.  When I bought my 770, I also bought the Tormach TTC system  which uses ER20 tool chucks and a 3/4" R8 collet.    The relatively short shank on the ER chucks maximizes the use of the z axis and they precisely reference at the face of the spindle so that tools can be removed and reinserted without having to zero them out again.  While the system was design for use on the Tormach, it works equally well on any mill.  I have enough of the various tool holder that I can preload all my tools and determine tool offsets.  Then I just have to reference my workspace once and I'm ready to go.

Round column mills are notoriously deficient in their z axis travel but I found that with careful planning beforehand, almost all work could be accomplished without having to move the head.  For those jobs where it was unavoidable, have a good referencing procedure worked.


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## rabler (Aug 1, 2021)

I started by buying what I thought would be a big enough mill to last forever.  Truly famous last words.  Grizzly 757z(?) combo vertical/horizontal mill, vfd 2HP 3phase on the vertical spindle, DRO, power feed x-axis, R8

Added a K&T 3K vertical about 6months ago.  10HP, 9000lbs, power feed on all 4 axises.  NMTB-50. Because more rigidity for hogging metal.  Will eventually add a DRO ...

You’ll always find a use for something bigger, as long as you have space


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## hman (Aug 1, 2021)

Razzle said:


> Your shop time is valuable and you should spend it doing things that you want to do, not things that you have to do.


Very true ... but then, I sincerely enjoy tinkering (see my sig line).  Improving the ease of use or accuracy of a tool is just as much a load of fun as any other project.  And unlike some fabrications, which can almost disappear or go to somebody else, I get to enjoy a tool fix every time I use that tool.


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## Winegrower (Aug 1, 2021)

I never ever considered anything other than a Bridgeport.   I'm completely happy with my clone and all the accessories that are made for Bridgeports.    I was working on a project the other day, and pleased that I used all but about 1/8" of the Z height, so nice to have a large work envelope.


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## epanzella (Aug 1, 2021)

I can't answer your question directly because I didn't (nor do I want to) replace my RF 30 KO mill. There were a host of features that I considered essential and after buying my mill and adding those features I was still way below the more expensive machines that had NONE of those features. They include DRO, VFD, power X feed, powered head lift and a +/- .001" head indexing system. This machine meets all my needs and then some. Your mileage my vary.


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## Larry$ (Aug 1, 2021)

I can understand the frustrations of belt changes. I've got a Jet 9x49 knee mill with VS. I've only had to reposition work a few times because I was out of X or Y travel. I have frequently come up against the Z travel space. Not because of really big castings but because the space that gets eaten up by things like boring heads, rotary tables etc. I put a knee power feed on and really like it. If you have the space, go for the biggest mill you can afford.


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## jwmay (Aug 2, 2021)

Ok everyone, thanks for the thoughts.  I've pretty well made up my mind, but it's good to hear from those who've been down the road I'm on.


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## davidpbest (Aug 2, 2021)

Go 49ers.


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## derfatdutchman (Aug 2, 2021)

I had my Grizzly RF-30 clone for 20+ years before I decided I had enough of the work arounds, head alinement problems and lack of capacity. So I started on the hunt for a knee mill. Oh the clapped out, rusted, and busted mills I looked at until I decided to buy a new one, but that is another story.


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## martik777 (Aug 2, 2021)

RF30 Taiwan made is perfect for everything I do. I have the power feed and use ER25 collets for toolholding (ER40 would be too large IMO) 
I added a 3phase and VFD to eliminate belt changes a few years ago for $100 including the 1HP motor. DRO's on all 3-axis.


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## Papa Charlie (Aug 2, 2021)

I have never owned a mill/drill but have had several friends that have. Frustration of projects being ruined and the difficulty in setting up the machines moved all of them to knee mills. Each one has said they would have purchased the knee mill to begin with had they had know how much of a difference it makes. Yes they were able to do projects but often found themselves putting off the work or trying to find work-a-rounds if they could when the round post mills had to be used.

Two of my friends sold off their original round post mills along with 99% of all the tooling holders and collets as they did not work on the knee at a loss.  The other one uses it as a fancy drill press now, but not often. If for no other reason other than he won't sell it for the loss he would take. It mostly has a lot of tools and other stuff that ends up all over the bed. A fancy table, and for a while it made it easy for him to mount his reloading press with the T-slots.

I don't really think you save anything by buying the mill/drills in the long run. I can understand that it can be easier to start out with one as the initial cost is lower and you can think of the selling and buying of upgrades and eventually a knee mill as payments over time when there was insufficient budget to do anything else.

Bottom line, you do what you can. A Mill/Drill is better than no mill at all. I have turned a cheap bench top drill press into a so called mill because that is what I had and could afford at the time. It didn't work well at all, but I was able to get the job done, not pretty. I have been lucky that for most of the time, I have worked at companies that had knee mills that allowed me to do a project now and then on their mill. I always replaced anything that I broke and was too often the only one that actually maintenance them.


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## jwmay (Aug 2, 2021)

Papa Charlie said:


> I have worked at companies that had knee mills that allowed me to do a project now and then on


I think that's what started all this.  For a very short time, we had a big Lagun in our shop. It gave me a new perspective, after using it one time, that pretty much changed everything.


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## thomb (Aug 6, 2021)

I started off with the red mini lathe and the X2 mill. I got my money's worth from them in output and learning; but in about 2 years I stopped having fun and drifted towards frustration. To be fair - I didn't want to make things within their capacity and didn't have the room for full size mill. I upgraded the lathe (Logan 200) and learned even more about what I "like/dislike" in a lathe. Things that 5 years ago I never would have imagined (I am a slow mechanical learner....)


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## 7milesup (Aug 6, 2021)

I bought a Harbor Freight mini mill from a friend of mine.  He used it so little that it still had the cosmoline on parts of it.

When did I decide I needed a different one?  About 20 minutes later.  LOL.  Ended up buying a PM 833T which is ok.  Would also like to have a CNC mill but I only have so much time and money.


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## 7milesup (Aug 6, 2021)

davidpbest said:


> Go 49ers.


Boooo.  Hisssss. Booooo.


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## GeoBruin (Aug 8, 2021)

I got a Grizzly G0759 (like the g0704 but with the factory DRO) as a wedding gift from my best man. At the time my "shop" was about the size of a broom closet so it made sense for many reasons.

I brought it with me when I bought a house and upgraded to a single car garage. I have a bit more room now but not much and I've come to realize how much I value the drill press capabilities of the little Griz in addition to being able to mill small parts.

I have hit the work envelope many times (especially z) and it do have to go very slow. My problem was that anything much stiffer is going to be much bigger. 

Then, I just a couple weeks ago I stumbled upon a Delta Rockwell 21-100 on Craig's List. I knew this and the Clausing 8520 are the smallest knee mills around and bothare in high demand so I snapped it up even though it needs some work. I plan to add a vfd and DRO. Time will tell if it is worth the extra space.


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## Tmate (Aug 9, 2021)

I bought a 6x26 Enco bench knee mill when I lived in a townhouse.  The only place I could fit it was in the attic directly over the bed in the master bedroom.  I dropped 2x8s down from the rafters to help hold up the bench it sat on.  Lived there for 7 years, and it always made my wife and me bit nervous.  Could have been worse though - I heard of a guy who put a Bridgeport in his basement that was taller than the basement ceiling.  He made his wife a nice island in the kitchen.

I digress though.  I used the Enco mill for 25 years, and moved it to new homes three times.  The lack of rigidity didn't bother me much since I only did drilling and light milling with it.  The big problem was the lack of distance between the spindle and table.  With any decent vise on it, clearance was very limited.  I had to try to get by with a collet set (by 32nds) when drilling, since using an adapter and chuck was not possible.  I decided earlier this year to bite the bullet and get a Bridgeport.  Should have done it when I moved from the townhouse.  I have covered both mills in other posts in these forums.  Here are a couple of pics though.


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## jwmay (Aug 9, 2021)

25 years?!! That's really something. Although according to many, that Enco would be a step up from my current machine. 
I wish I could think of something that needed light milling. I seem to only get milling projects of the almost too big variety.


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## BGHansen (Aug 10, 2021)

I started with an Atlas 12 x 36 lathe and bought a Grizzly round-column mill not really understanding the knee vs. column difference.  I quickly discovered the difference after moving the head.  My work around for losing the table position was a series of edge finders with different length rods in 5" increments.  I recall having 5", 10" and 15" extensions and dedicated edge finders mounted in each.

In use, I had a square block attached to the table for referencing.  I'd edge find the far side and near side to compensate for runout in my edge finder extensions and split the difference for zero.  Was a PITA but did work.  That was my REALLY poor man's ABSolute coordinate system.  I'd move to the work and edge find again, wrote down the number and direction of the handwheel turn, then re-zero'd.  That was my INCremental setting.  On the plus side, the round-column mill forced me to plan projects out much better than I do now (minimize head moves).

About 2 years later a used Jet JVM-830 small knee mill showed up about 15 miles away and I was a new owner.  I'd really HATE to go back to a round column mill after using a knee mill.  

Bruce


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