# Making screw jacks - Lesson in taps and dies



## Christianstark (Feb 10, 2022)

Hi all,

So like the title said, I made some screw jacks to assist with milling a piece a good bit longer than my vise is wide. Decided to go with M12, and had an Irwin Tap and Die kit from Lowes.

The major lesson I learned is: What everyone is saying about tap and die kits is true. The big box store kits are awful. The first screw I cut stopped threading into the jack at about 3/4ths, and the second one stopped at about 1/2. I retapped and re cut threads several times, but no joy. 

Yesterday, I ordered a round die and a set of 3 taps taper, plug, bottom in the HSS flavor, and had to adjust the die very slightly to cut threads that would thread 100% in. The round dies, that allow you to adjust the space on one side of the die really lets you dial in the threading fit you want with the application you are making. I will likely never buy a "kit" again, and will also likely never buy Hex dies again either. McMaster had my order to my home in less than 24 hours.


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## MikeInOr (Feb 10, 2022)

Even after reading all the horrors of tap and die sets I purchased this metric tap set yesterday:


			https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00SG6C6RK/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
		


I made sure it was HSS!  $60 for 9 taps I hope they are somewhat decent quality.

After 30 years of fixing up old woodworking machines I shot myself in the foot!  I bought a European (Italian) sliding table saw and my 40 year old set of quality SAE taps and dies left me high and dry.  1 week delay in the project waiting for the taps.  I am sure (Uhh???) that my SAE tap handles will work on the metric taps.  Now I just need to get a hex die holder.  My current hex tap holder leaves a bit to be desired (a deep well impact socket with shallow groves).  My quality set is all round dies but a few hex dies have snuck in over the years.


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## WobblyHand (Feb 10, 2022)

MikeInOr said:


> Even after reading all the horrors of tap and die sets I purchased this metric tap set yesterday:
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00SG6C6RK/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> ...


I have the same version of that tap and drill set.  Bought mine from Little Machine Shop.  It is missing the Accusize logo, but looks identical. The set has worked well for general tapping.


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## benmychree (Feb 10, 2022)

You cannot count on dies, especially cheap ones to cut threads that will screw into long engagement tapped holes due to poor lead control, die heads are better, but not perfect in lead control, the best thing to do is chase the threads on your lathe.  The tap is much better at achieving accurate lead control due to it's length.


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## BROCKWOOD (Feb 10, 2022)

Sometimes, with a kit, (just sometimes) you get a pretty good organizing box to store all the good taps you end up buying. Often, I'll cut the lid off & use the base as a tool organizer in a tool box drawer. Then the lid becomes a good parts tray for whatever I'm overhauling.


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## woodchucker (Feb 10, 2022)

benmychree said:


> You cannot count on dies, especially cheap ones to cut threads that will screw into long engagement tapped holes due to poor lead control, die heads are better, but not perfect in lead control, the best thing to do is chase the threads on your lathe.  The tap is much better at achieving accurate lead control due to it's length.


that's the opposite of what I do sometimes. I cut the threads on the lathe (single point), and chase with a die if necessary... I never use hex dies, only round dies. 

John, what do you mean by lead control?


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## Christianstark (Feb 10, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> that's the opposite of what I do sometimes. I cut the threads on the lathe (single point), and chase with a die if necessary... I never use hex dies, only round dies.
> 
> John, what do you mean by lead control?


I have not threaded on the lathe yet. I did not have an Imperial tap suitable for the jack body, and didn’t want to figure out change gears. Need to dip my toe into that water…


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## ahazi (Feb 11, 2022)

MikeInOr said:


> Even after reading all the horrors of tap and die sets I purchased this metric tap set yesterday:
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00SG6C6RK/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> ...


This is a good general purpose set. I have it in SAE and Metric for many years and it pretty much saved the day when needed. I have a bunch of individual taps but the nice feature of these sets is the matching drill bit next to each tap. It used to be about half the $$$ than the current price...

Ariel


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## vocatexas (Feb 11, 2022)

Many times when I need a tap, die, or drill bit in a hurry, I drop into my local NAPA store. They nearly always try to sell me the fancy gold bits, 'titanium' taps, etc. I have learned that plain old HSS works really well for most of what I do, and that's what I insist on. They usually look at me like I"m crazy.


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## stupoty (Feb 12, 2022)

BROCKWOOD said:


> Sometimes, with a kit, (just sometimes) you get a pretty good organizing box to store all the good taps you end up buying. Often, I'll cut the lid off & use the base as a tool organizer in a tool box drawer. Then the lid becomes a good parts tray for whatever I'm overhauling.


I'm using the tin that came with my first quite bad tap and die set to hold some of my ever growing tap and die collection.

I had two non standard metric taps in the box , one day I discovered a china made product I couldn't get any M4 bolts to thread into was using this non standard thread 

Stu


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## WobblyHand (Feb 12, 2022)

Christianstark said:


> I have not threaded on the lathe yet. I did not have an Imperial tap suitable for the jack body, and didn’t want to figure out change gears. Need to dip my toe into that water…


You need to try this.  It's a valuable skill to learn.  Try it on some cheap PVC pipe to start.  You can buy some 1/2" pipe for very little cash.  It's not hard to figure out the gears.  Pick a thread to try, and see if you actually get it.  If you have a thread gauge, great.  If not, choose a thread that you have a screw, that way you can use the screw as a thread gauge.  Try to pick a finer pitch and a very slow RPM to start.  It's easier to learn the basic timing that way.


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## Christianstark (Feb 13, 2022)

WobblyHand said:


> You need to try this.  It's a valuable skill to learn.  Try it on some cheap PVC pipe to start.  You can buy some 1/2" pipe for very little cash.  It's not hard to figure out the gears.  Pick a thread to try, and see if you actually get it.  If you have a thread gauge, great.  If not, choose a thread that you have a screw, that way you can use the screw as a thread gauge.  Try to pick a finer pitch and a very slow RPM to start.  It's easier to learn the basic timing that way.


Totally in my plans for the next month or so. I just had some items come up first, and wanted to knock those out in order to get to the next. Machining is interesting. Sometimes you need to make a part, to make a part, to make another part…etc.

fun stuff.


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## wildcatter (Feb 20, 2022)

Just a note on hex dies. My research ( after having a hex die shatter while threading a rod ) tells me that hex dies are intended for cleaning up existing threads only, not cutting new threads.


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## jwmay (Feb 20, 2022)

Hex dies are great! So long as you are using them on some old fasteners that need cleaned up. 
Anywho...yep me too. I bought a cheap set, which I thought was expensive.  I guess it's not my fault. I was following the advice. Don't buy cheap taps and dies. I went to the local farm store and plunked down my $90.00 for the best set they had.  Garbage, for what I planned. 
 Funny enough, very soon after that I bought 4 die handles at a junk shop for two bucks a piece, that are quite possibly the best dies ever made. I have gotten a lot of use out of those hex dies though. But it's all repair work. They flat will not start a thread. 
And 90 bucks is better spent on 3 hss dies.


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## mikey (Feb 21, 2022)

You cannot make a blanket assumption that all hex dies are only suitable for thread chasing. I have a 35 year old set of HSS Irwin Hanson hex dies that have cut many, many threads onto solid rod and they're still going strong.

Yeah, I know that thread chasing thing is common knowledge and fits the party line, except for it not always being true.


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## jwmay (Feb 21, 2022)

mikey said:


> You cannot make a blanket assumption that all hex dies are only suitable for thread chasing.


Yes, I can. Lol. But I can also accept that it may not be universally true. In the future, I'll try to ensure I include the requisite YMMV, if offering an opinion. Just speaking from my own. None of it is  a scientifically backed fact.  But your 35 year old set isn't enough to convince me to buy any more hex dies for threading. Haha


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## Christianstark (Feb 21, 2022)

mikey said:


> You cannot make a blanket assumption that all hex dies are only suitable for thread chasing. I have a 35 year old set of HSS Irwin Hanson hex dies that have cut many, many threads onto solid rod and they're still going strong.
> 
> Yeah, I know that thread chasing thing is common knowledge and fits the party line, except for it not always being true.


Isn’t it funny on how the older stuff is orders of magnitude better than what you find now a days in the big box stores? They don’t make ‘em like they used to! The dies I have are Irwin, which from what I read are a far cry from Irwin Hanson


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## mikey (Feb 21, 2022)

A big part of the problem when some guys have trouble with dies isn't the die; its the guy. I kid you not.

Guy: I can't get this brand XYZ die to cut this 1/2-13 thread. The thread comes out crooked and mangled, and this is the second die I bought to thread this rod.

Me: Hmm, how big is the rod?

Guy: Dunno, it's 1/2" rod, right? I measured it with my tape rule.

Me: So, 1/2" rod + zinc coating = way bigger OD than needed for a class 2 external thread. Now you go forcing it on and ruin the die ... and its the die's fault?

EDIT: This guy has kids, which is unfortunate because it proves he is able to reproduce.


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## jwmay (Feb 21, 2022)

mikey said:


> A big part of the problem when some guys have trouble with dies isn't the die; its the guy. I kid you not.


Looks like somebody's been reading about me. Lol
It's my opinion, that all things being equal, the purchase and use of high speed steel, name brand, round dies removes all possibility that the tool is to blame. Removing that variable goes a long way towards progress when your mentors are a bunch of strangers on the internet who won't be in the shop with you when you get in trouble. Ymmv


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## mikey (Feb 21, 2022)

jwmay said:


> Looks like somebody's been reading about me. Lol
> It's my opinion, that all things being equal, the purchase and use of high speed steel, name brand, round dies removes all possibility that the tool is to blame. Removing that variable goes a long way towards progress when your mentors are a bunch of strangers on the internet who won't be in the shop with you when you get in trouble. Ymmv



Round dies are okay. More is made of them than is probably warranted. Yes, you can dial in a fit but how many of us really actually do that? You have to turn the work to a specific diameter to close tolerances, then you have to make multiple passes as you sneak up on the thread pitch so it falls within specs. Come on, how many of us do that?

Don't get me wrong. I have round dies and I know exactly how to use them but truth be told, I don't use dies unless I have to. It is faster and more accurate for me to just screwcut the thread on the lathe and be done with it. 

Bottom line: Learn to cut threads on the lathe. Leave the dies for field work and then be very careful of the work OD before you take a die out of its case.


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## Winegrower (Feb 21, 2022)

For threads less than 1/2" or so, I really like my Geometric Die head.   I've collected enough chasers to have a pretty good cover on the NC and NF threads half inch or below, but no need to go to metric threads yet, though the chasers are available. 

It sets up really fast and bang, the thread is cut.   With practice, I can set up and cut a single part faster with the die head than single point threading.  

If you see a die head like this for a reasonable price, get it.


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## jwmay (Feb 21, 2022)

mikey said:


> Come on, how many of us do that?


Not me.


mikey said:


> It is faster and more accurate for me to just screwcut the thread on the lathe and be done with it.


Not for me. Nope.


mikey said:


> Learn to cut threads on the lathe.


I'm trying! Get off my back already! Geez! I haven't even got the darned flycutting right yet! Haha


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## Christianstark (Feb 22, 2022)

Since we are already talking taps and dies, anyone have a recommendation for tap wrenches to use for some medium sized taps? My T handle tap wrench won’t hold an 8mm tap securely, and my fixed handle wrench is a cheaply that came with my Irwin kit and loosens after 2 turns. Would love one that fits the sweet spot between value and performance.


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## Dan Krager (Feb 22, 2022)

I thought these were a pretty good deal.  I like them very much.  The one drawback is the ball detent is weak and when oiled can let the handle separate from the holder under certain conditions.

DanK


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## Christianstark (Feb 22, 2022)

Dan Krager said:


> I thought these were a pretty good deal.  I like them very much.  The one drawback is the ball detent is weak and when oiled can let the handle separate from the holder under certain conditions.
> 
> DanK


Dan,

One question on these. I know they can ratchet forward and reverse. Is there another setting where it locks the handle if frequent chip clearing is necessary so you don't have to fumble for the switch every quarter turn?

Thanks!


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## WobblyHand (Feb 22, 2022)

Christianstark said:


> Since we are already talking taps and dies, anyone have a recommendation for tap wrenches to use for some medium sized taps? My T handle tap wrench won’t hold an 8mm tap securely, and my fixed handle wrench is a cheaply that came with my Irwin kit and loosens after 2 turns. Would love one that fits the sweet spot between value and performance.


I have used a Starrett 93B to tap M8.  It's near it's capacity, but it holds an M8 very securely.  No slipping.  A 93C might be a little better, as it has longer handles.  I bought a 93A and 93B because I was aggravated with crappy tap wrenches.  If you can find something that is as well made, (or the Starretts) you won't regret it.  When a wrench fits the taps securely, there's far less chance of a mishap.  Use to hate hand tapping.  Now it's quick and easy.


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## Dan Krager (Feb 22, 2022)

Christianstark said:


> Dan,
> 
> One question on these. I know they can ratchet forward and reverse. Is there another setting where it locks the handle if frequent chip clearing is necessary so you don't have to fumble for the switch every quarter turn?
> 
> Thanks!


They do not have a lock setting that I have found. If the need arises like you suggest, there is a handle to use that goes through a hole.  But that can't be useful very often for dies, me thinks.  The post fits standard sockets, but again how useful? Maybe acceptable for taps.

FYI, I have been using the smaller handle in the set to hold a 3/8" - 16 die threading 9 1/2" of hot rolled steel in one pass.  With bacon grease lube, it moves down the rod rather freely and since the rod is vertical (in a drill press at 10 rpm) the chips are generally self clearing.  Have done both left and right hand threads with this setup.  Total thread length is 416" for the project, and there are about 6 places where the thread was nicked by a wayward chip. So this is not for tightly spec'd threads. The finished threaded rod is for hand screws in the woodshop. 
DanK


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## Christianstark (Feb 22, 2022)

WobblyHand said:


> I have used a Starrett 93B to tap M8.  It's near it's capacity, but it holds an M8 very securely.  No slipping.  A 93C might be a little better, as it has longer handles.  I bought a 93A and 93B because I was aggravated with crappy tap wrenches.  If you can find something that is as well made, (or the Starretts) you won't regret it.  When a wrench fits the taps securely, there's far less chance of a mishap.  Use to hate hand tapping.  Now it's quick and easy.


Was eyeballing the C. I have a T-handle that will handle everything below an 8mm. I may peruse eBay for a nice used example, as I may also eventually need a long handled one, and tooling up a new shop is crushing my wallet.

Has anyone ever gone with the McMaster Economy tap wrenches? I wonder if they bridge the gap from cheap pot metal craptastic tap wrenches, and heirloom Starrett stuff.


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## mikey (Feb 22, 2022)

Get the Starrett. It is the best. Or make one.


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## jwmay (Feb 22, 2022)

I like this style. Mine is a starrett from a garage sale.


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## Christianstark (Feb 22, 2022)

mikey said:


> Get the Starrett. It is the best. Or make one.


$57.50 delivered Thursday from Amazon. Done.


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## Christianstark (Feb 22, 2022)

jwmay said:


> I like this style. Mine is a starrett from a garage sale.


I do as well. Will be keeping my eyes out for a nice handle type in the future. I think the 93C will serve well for the majority of what I do...but may eventually need more leverage down the road.


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## WobblyHand (Feb 22, 2022)

Christianstark said:


> I do as well. Will be keeping my eyes out for a nice handle type in the future. I think the 93C will serve well for the majority of what I do...but may eventually need more leverage down the road.


93C has a divot in the handle so you can use a spring loaded tap guide.  If you tap the hole immediately after having drilled it, your tap will be perfectly aligned.  Works both on a mill and a lathe.  Makes tapping a lot easier.


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## Christianstark (Feb 22, 2022)

Side conversation - Don't want to start a whole new thread for this, but I recently was very humbled while trying to make two small RC parts for my dad. Drilling holes on my 1340GT did not work out well at all. tiny drills went in the center, and was about a mm off center in less than an inch.

I'd like to make a sensitive drill attachment that I feeb by hand, but not everything I have seen is for a mill, and not for a lathe where the chuck can free spin. Something like Joe Pie has, but I am not confident I can make one yet. Id buy the chuck and straight arbor, but not confident I could drill the sliding fit part for the tailstock.


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## Christianstark (Feb 22, 2022)

WobblyHand said:


> 93C has a divot in the handle so you can use a spring loaded tap guide.  If you tap the hole immediately after having drilled it, your tap will be perfectly aligned.  Works both on a mill and a lathe.  Makes tapping a lot easier.


I want to make one of those for the experience, but not sure I am there yet.


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## mikey (Feb 22, 2022)

Christianstark said:


> everything I have seen is for a mill, and not for a lathe where the chuck can free spin. Something like Joe Pie has, but I am not confident I can make one yet. Id buy the chuck and straight arbor, but not confident I could drill the sliding fit part for the tailstock.



A number of options, the first of which is to own a Sherline lathe that would do this without any effort. Sort of makes you rethink the "biggest you can fit or afford" thing, doesn't it?

Practically speaking, there is absolutely no reason you cannot take a typical sensitive drill chuck that is commonly used for this job on the mill and use it on the lathe. I've done it and it works fine. I use it to drill out carburetor jets. I'm not sure if this is the thing that Joe refers to as being $700-900 but they are not that expensive if that is what he's referring to. Still, they do cost but if you find a used one in good shape then they're nice to have. I have two, a Royal with a tiny Jacobs chuck and an Albrecht. I like the feel of the Royal but I prefer the Albrecht chuck; might have to switch them one day.

If you want to make the sleeve that Joe shows, its just a "simple" reaming job. Reaming accurately is not difficult if you pay close attention to your choice of drills. I'm attaching something to read that might help. The thing to note. Use two drills to drill your hole: the pre-reamer drill you plan to use right before your reamer and a drill one step smaller than that one. Face the work clean, spot it lightly and then use that one step smaller drill to bulk out the hole. Do not use pilot drills (that will drift), do not push the drill; feel it and keep it cutting continuously. Clear chips often and keep the drill lubed. When you get to final depth, don't dwell in there. Now come out and chamfer the hole and go in with the pre-reamer drill. Again, lots of lube and this time the drill will go in easily so pecking is not necessary. Make a single pass with this drill, don't go in and out. Now clean out that hole really well with compressed air and a brush or whatever you need to be sure there are no chips or debris in there; you want it clean. Check to be sure there is a good 30-45 deg chamfer, then ream it with a lot of lube. I highly recommend you keep your speeds low enough so you can feel the reamer cutting; for me, this is in the 120-200 rpm range. I set up a carriage stop so I don't hit the bottom of the hole with my reamer (dulls it quickly when you do this) and make a single pass. When I hit the stop, I stop the machine and withdraw the reamer. Blow it clear and you have a hole.


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## Christianstark (Feb 24, 2022)

So I received the tap wrench today. To be honest, I was thinking to myself "how much better could this be over the other T-handle wrenches I have used in the past?" The answer, just after holding it and clamping a tap? ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE.


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## woodchucker (Feb 24, 2022)

Christianstark said:


> So I received the tap wrench today. To be honest, I was thinking to myself "how much better could this be over the other T-handle wrenches I have used in the past?" The answer, just after holding it and clamping a tap? ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE.


yep, having been using a 2 jaw for a few years, I would not go back to a 4 jaw. Remarkable difference.
BTW General makes the same wrenches. You don't have to give up a leg for one. But I understand, that red box makes us feel good.


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## Christianstark (Feb 24, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> yep, having been using a 2 jaw for a few years, I would not go back to a 4 jaw. Remarkable difference.
> BTW General makes the same wrenches. You don't have to give up a leg for one. But I understand, that red box makes us feel good.


I may buy a General one in the 'A' size to replace my junker that came with my junk tap and die set.


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## WobblyHand (Feb 24, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> yep, having been using a 2 jaw for a few years, I would not go back to a 4 jaw. Remarkable difference.
> BTW General makes the same wrenches. You don't have to give up a leg for one. But I understand, that red box makes us feel good.


Do you happen to know the part number of a C sized tap wrench by General, with the two jaws?  Need a quality 93C like tap wrench.


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## woodchucker (Feb 24, 2022)

WobblyHand said:


> Do you happen to know the part number of a C sized tap wrench by General, with the two jaws?  Need a quality 93C like tap wrench.


I think it's a 166, it's worn off the stamping, the My big one is old, my small one the 164 is also barely visible. I use them a lot.


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## Christianstark (Feb 24, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> yep, having been using a 2 jaw for a few years, I would not go back to a 4 jaw. Remarkable difference.
> BTW General makes the same wrenches. You don't have to give up a leg for one. But I understand, that red box makes us feel good.


My cheap Irwin one is also a 2 jaw, but there is no comparison between the 2. everything is subpar on it. holding power is lacking, fitment is loose, the handle held in via ball detents is a good idea in theory, but I could see the stick slip of moving the handle with a small tap engaged, turning into a disaster. Handle is thin so it isn't comfortable to do several holes, back of the wrench is designed to take a socket of a square drive from a socket wrench, so no place for a tap follower, much cheaper chromed metal construction, etc.


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## woodchucker (Feb 24, 2022)

Christianstark said:


> My cheap Irwin one is also a 2 jaw, but there is no comparison between the 2. everything is subpar on it. holding power is lacking, fitment is loose, the handle held in via ball detents is a good idea in theory, but I could see the stick slip of moving the handle with a small tap engaged, turning into a disaster. Handle is thin so it isn't comfortable to do several holes, back of the wrench is designed to take a socket of a square drive from a socket wrench, so no place for a tap follower, much cheaper chromed metal construction, etc.


I don't have the Starrett, but both my Generals are top shelf. Both capture the handle, so you don't lose it. That may or may not be desireable to you. I like it.  I actually don't think I had markings on the older unit (bigger) when I got it, but I don't remember clearly.


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