# South Bend 10k Clean Up



## Danshell (Jul 16, 2020)

First of all this is my first post and my first lathe. I have never turned a piece of steel in my life.....yet, so I am a total newbie and have a massive learning curve ahead of me.

I just bought a South Bend Lathe but I know zero about it. I was hoping I could get some help dating and Identifying it.
I believe I have purchase a Heavy 10 that comes with a gear box and extra gears that will allow me to cut metric threads.

So my only questions at this stage are.......

Is it a Heavy 10?
Is it dated in the 40's?
Do those gears and spare gear box appear to be what I need to cut metric threads?
Where can I buy Chucks for this lathe? (I am in Australia but dont mind shipping from the US)
If I am searching for chucks what is the large thread size and/or what is the bolt pattern on the chuck holder? (I have several that came with the machine none of them match the bolt pattern)
And finally, it has no motor. My initial research suggests I should buy a 1hp 3phase and use a VFD to run it from my 240v single phase power. If so I gather that would make the step up pulley system redundant, so I would just leave the pulley in the middle for example?
Or should I just buy a 240v single phase motor and continue to use the step up pulley system to change the speed? If so what size pulley should I put on a 1400RPM motor?

Thanks for any help and apologies if these are really stupid questions. I am starting to research my backside off to learn as much as I can.

Danny


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## Janderso (Jul 16, 2020)

Welcome,
You are on a journey of discover. You will get lots of hep, stay tuned.
Do you know anyone in your community that could stop by and help you get started?
Lathes are wonderful machines and they can be very dangerous too.
Youtube, Mr. Pete, has over 1,000 videos. Many on a South Bend.


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## Danshell (Jul 16, 2020)

Hi Thanks, Yes my work place has Machinists in the workshop that are always happy to answer my questions so I will be a sponge with those guys.

Mrpete222 looks like a good start, thanks for that.


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## SLK001 (Jul 16, 2020)

That's a 10K.  It's NOT a heavy 10, but known rather as a "Light 10".  It looks like you received a full metric transposing gear set with your lathe.


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## Danshell (Jul 16, 2020)

SLK001 said:


> That's a 10K.  It's NOT a heavy 10, but known rather as a "Light 10".  It looks like you received a full metric transposing gear set with your lathe.



Thanks, can you tell that from the serial number or just by looking at its size? Do you know what year it might be? The guy I bought it from told me it was a heavy 10 BTW so Ill give him the benefit of doubt and say he didnt actually know himself!


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## Canus (Jul 16, 2020)

Check this web site for serial number identification.



			Serial Number Information


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## WCraig (Jul 16, 2020)

Danshell said:


> And finally, it has no motor. My initial research suggests I should buy a 1hp 3phase and use a VFD to run it from my 240v single phase power. If so I gather that would make the step up pulley system redundant, so I would just leave the pulley in the middle for example?
> Or should I just buy a 240v single phase motor and continue to use the step up pulley system to change the speed? If so what size pulley should I put on a 1400RPM motor?


I believe South Bend recommended a 1/2 horsepower motor for this lathe:



			South Bend Lathe Works - Publication Reprints - Model 10-K Precision Lathes | VintageMachinery.org
		


Re powering with a VFD, there are quite a few threads here on the considerations for doing that.  Whether it is worth it is up to you.  How badly does changing belts bother you?

You got a tonne of stuff with your lathe.  Including an 'extra' quick change gear box.  It might be for the 9 inch South Bend?!?  Also appears you got a collet drawbar (with red handle).  Did you get a collet chuck and collets, too?  Also very nice that you got a quick change tool post and holders.  

Craig


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## silverhawk (Jul 16, 2020)

Danshell said:


> Thanks, can you tell that from the serial number or just by looking at its size? Do you know what year it might be? The guy I bought it from told me it was a heavy 10 BTW so Ill give him the benefit of doubt and say he didnt actually know himself!


The serial number does have that information coded in it, typically the three letters at the end. If all of those goodies fit, you are very well set. I do not have a VFD for mine, though my new-to-me lathe may get one, unless I get lazy and just do a 110/220 set up.

Welcome to the forum. It's always good to watch people learn. 

joe


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## RandyWilson (Jul 16, 2020)

The "K" indicates a Light 10, aka a 10K.   I don't think the heavy 10 was ever sold as a benchtop lathe. The heavy 10 looks like a mini version of the 13-16 UMD lathes.

I am not an expert on this, but I understand that motor ratings today are much more optimistic than they were back then. Peak potential under ideal conditions vs average real operating conditions, or some such. If it came with a motor rated at 1/2hp back then, I would venture you need a 1hp in today's mini-horse ratings. I would not part with my VFD.


http://vintagemachinery.org/mfgIndex/detail.aspx?id=1617&tab=3


 Happy reading.


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## brino (Jul 16, 2020)

Wow, a "spare" change-gear box? (although it may not fit your lathe....)

I cannot quite tell from the photos, is there a still a plate on the gear-box attached to the machine?
I can't see if it's just dirty, or if it was removed.

That should have the common imperial threading and feed chart on it.
Also, it should give a catalog number, which also might help with the date.

By the way, Grizzly bough the Southbend name and still offers:
some parts here: https://www.grizzly.com/brands/south-bend-lathe/parts
and can supply a PDF copy of the original sales record (see the box on the right-hand side at the above link)

I also suggest you find a copy of the old Southbend book "How to Run a Lathe".
As a site supporter you can download a copy right here, there are multiple versions available:
SB How to Run a Lathe for Beginners - 1914 15th Edition
SB How To Run a Lathe - 1966 27th Edition (56).pdf

Here's a link to the Southbend area in our "Downloads" section:
https://www.hobby-machinist.com/resources/categories/south-bend.34/

Welcome to the group!
-brino


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## SLK001 (Jul 16, 2020)

BTW, your second QCGB is for a 9" lathe.  I don't think that the two gear boxes are interchangeable.  Just sell the extra one to offset the cost of the lathe and to purchase desired tooling.

The CL644R is the model number for a 9" lathe with a 4-1/2 foot bed.

What is the model number shown on the attached QCGB?  Is should be something like CL670R.


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## Danshell (Jul 16, 2020)

First of all, thanks to everyone who has taken the time to reply, I really appreciate the advice and helpful links.




SLK001 said:


> BTW, your second QCGB is for a 9" lathe.  I don't think that the two gear boxes are interchangeable.  Just sell the extra one to offset the cost of the lathe and to purchase desired tooling.
> 
> The CL644R is the model number for a 9" lathe with a 4-1/2 foot bed.
> 
> What is the model number shown on the attached QCGB?  Is should be something like CL670R.



The plate on the original gearbox is really worn out but yes it does say something very similar CL670A it has an A not an R. Does that mean anything? Is there a definitive way to find out if this 'spare' gear box is usable on this lathe? The spare is brand new. Well I am sure it was manufactured many years ago, however it has never been used. 






brino said:


> Wow, a "spare" change-gear box? (although it may not fit your lathe....)
> 
> I cannot quite tell from the photos, is there a still a plate on the gear-box attached to the machine?
> I can't see if it's just dirty, or if it was removed.
> ...



Thank you very much. Now I know where to buy parts. I wish the Aussie dollar was a bit stronger against the mighty USD though 



RandyWilson said:


> The "K" indicates a Light 10, aka a 10K.   I don't think the heavy 10 was ever sold as a benchtop lathe. The heavy 10 looks like a mini version of the 13-16 UMD lathes.
> 
> I am not an expert on this, but I understand that motor ratings today are much more optimistic than they were back then. Peak potential under ideal conditions vs average real operating conditions, or some such. If it came with a motor rated at 1/2hp back then, I would venture you need a 1hp in today's mini-horse ratings. I would not part with my VFD.
> 
> ...



I am torn between a single phase motor using the original belts and going the 'modern' way of 3ph with a VFD. I just dont know what the right decision is here.



WCraig said:


> I believe South Bend recommended a 1/2 horsepower motor for this lathe:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks Craig, yes it appears as though the gear box is wrong for this machine, which suggests to me that the gent I bought it off didnt really know what it was exactly either. The collet holder is actually for a Maximat V10 Lathe. I bought this south bend, a maximat v10 and an atlas 7b shaper all from the one person. I paid $2000 USD for all 3 machines, I thought is was a reasonable price even though all of them need restoring but they are all complete enough and work.


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## DavidR8 (Jul 16, 2020)

Other than the colour, that looks identical to my 10K


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## Danshell (Jul 16, 2020)

I made the decision to buy a 3ph motor and use a VFD. I was torn between authenticity and ease of use.......Ill probably never be able to make this a perfectly restored unit so I went with ease of use.


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## Weldingrod1 (Jul 16, 2020)

You want to keep the belts. You need the first step down to get the rpm right! I ran my Southbend for years each way (single speed and vfd). I rarely changed belts after going to the vfd. The drawback of slowing down a motor on a vfd is you dont get more torque below rated speed

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Danshell (Jul 16, 2020)

Weldingrod1 said:


> You want to keep the belts. You need the first step down to get the rpm right! I ran my Southbend for years each way (single speed and vfd). I rarely changed belts after going to the vfd. The drawback of slowing down a motor on a vfd is you dont get more torque below rated speed
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk



Do you mean the first step down on the motor pulley or are you talking about the large flat belt cone pulleys?


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## RandyWilson (Jul 16, 2020)

I keep my belt on a middle step. All speed control is done with the VFD and backgear.  And I learned a trick this evening. When facing with carbide, there is a point towards the center where the surface finish goes rough due to low surface speed. First pass I note where that is, the second pass I give the VFD knob a little twist just before reaching that spot.


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## Weldingrod1 (Jul 16, 2020)

You want to keep both the motor to jack shaft belt and the jack shaft to spindle belt. OR, find a low speed motor who's top speed is about jack shaft speed. I think the stock motor is already 1800 RPM, so you might want a 900 Rpm motor to directly drive the belt to the spindle (just guessing, though). Those are rare! That said, I DID find one and put it on my drill press...

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Danshell (Jul 26, 2020)

I pulled the old girl down and 'tidied' her up a little.

This was not a rebuild or restoration by any means, it was simply a quick tear down, wash, repaint and put back together to see where the old lathe was in regards condition.

I put a 3 phase motor on with a VFD and that works really well.

I have to say the old Lathe is really nice. It runs very smooth and for the most part seems pretty tight.

So far I have a list of things I need to do.

1, Its gear train was geared all wrong. I have ordered the correct 56 tooth gear for the end of the gearbox to drive the 100/127 toothe gear and I have a set of metric transponding? gears.

2, When engaging in the half nut in forward directing the carriage is 'notchy'. It is fine in reverse direction though. And it is fine when just using the clutch so I think the half nut needs some investigation. Solved

3, The whole gear box can lock up randomly when the half nut is engaged so again I need to investigate in the carriage assembly. Solved

4, The gear train can be quite rattly in one direction (i cant recall if its forward or reverse) but the way the larger 100/127 gears mount is a bit dogdy so I need to investigate that as well.

5, The clutch doesnt disengage sometimes so I need to have a look at that.

Besides that, I think Ill buy a felt kit and slowly replace them.

I am open to any suggestions for my issues above?


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## Danshell (Jul 26, 2020)

I took the apron off and check the half nut, it appears to be in very good condition.

So I held the half nut on the lead screw and ran the lathe and it appears as those it is the lead screw that is causing the carriage notchyness in the forward direction.

There is quite a lot of side to side slop in the lead screw, so given that i have put a new gear box on, I can almost be certain there should be some shims to take up the slop. The slop is causing the notchyness in the forward direction. In reverse the lead screw pushed towards the gear box and hence taking up the slop.

Ill go investigate further........I have a good book that gives a massive amount of information but it doesnt tell me how much side play I should have. Im guessing not a lot.


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## Danshell (Jul 26, 2020)

At risk of replying to and answering my own questions in my own thread I found the problem.........

Some goose put the gear on the wrong way around on the end of the lead screw...I wont mention who that goose was


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## SLK001 (Jul 26, 2020)

Danshell said:


> At risk of replying to and answering my own questions in my own thread I found the problem.........
> 
> Some goose put the gear on the wrong way around on the end of the lead screw...I wont mention who that goose was



I was going to suggest that you look for geese in your shop!

Also, what do you mean by side-to-side slope in the leadscrew?  Across, or long way?


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## Weldingrod1 (Jul 26, 2020)

That's a really impressive turn around! Looking very nice!

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Danshell (Jul 26, 2020)

Weldingrod1 said:


> That's a really impressive turn around! Looking very nice!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk



Thanks, it was just a clean up, no special rebuilds at this stage.




SLK001 said:


> I was going to suggest that you look for geese in your shop!
> 
> Also, what do you mean by side-to-side slope in the leadscrew?  Across, or long way?



It was long ways. There is none now, or very little.

I just come back in from testing it, and I am happy to say everything now works as it should, she is beautiful.

The clutch doesnt always disengage as it should but I am very confident I can sort that out. I never pulled it apart when I clean up the apron so I am sure it needs a proper clean.


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## SLK001 (Jul 26, 2020)

Danshell said:


> The clutch doesnt always disengage as it should but I am very confident I can sort that out. I never pulled it apart when I clean up the apron so I am sure it needs a proper clean.



Sometimes there's a burr on one of the pressure plates that interferes with disengaging.  If you dig into it and find one, just stone the burr flat and you should be okay.


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## Danshell (Jul 27, 2020)

Thanks for that. Ill pull it apart in the next day or so and check it out.


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## markba633csi (Jul 27, 2020)

Very nice lathe- the perfect size for a hobby shop.  I always liked the apron arrangement on those, since running them in high school
-Mark


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## Danshell (Jul 31, 2020)

I am happy to report the clutch issue is all sorted and everything on the lathe works as it should.

I simply pulled it all apart and cleaned it. Man it was filthy inside it. When I put it back together however, I suspect I may have caused the sticking issue when I put it back together the first time.........goose in the shop again 

Not really, but the knob the you turn to loosen/tighten the clutch was worn and recessed where it contacts, allowing the clutch to loosen too far and bind up. I cleaned up the worn surface and for now just used a washer to pack the knob back out but Ill seek out a nicer solution in the future.

There wasnt a lot in it, but just enough wear (2-3mm) to allow the plates to bind.


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## silverhawk (Aug 1, 2020)

Good find!


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## SLK001 (Aug 1, 2020)

The washer should be all that you need.


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## Danshell (Aug 2, 2020)

I did a bit more work to the bench, made a chip tray and made some tooling on the weekend. I also bought 3 cheap little oil cans for my different oils I use.

I have just ordered all my remote switches etc so I can get that big VFD hidden under the bench.


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## SLK001 (Aug 3, 2020)

I'm glad that you finally got a top on your bench.  You might want to put a lip all the way around the bench to help contain the chips (make the top an even larger chip tray).


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## Danshell (Aug 3, 2020)

SLK001 said:


> I'm glad that you finally got a top on your bench.  You might want to put a lip all the way around the bench to help contain the chips (make the top an even larger chip tray).




Thanks. My metal folder (home made) will only fold 3mm aluminium at around 700mm wide so thats almost as wide as I could make the chip tray. I was contemplating making two of them with out being folded at one end and tig'ing them together to cover the whole table top....I may still do that.

I have a bit of a to do list which I want to work through as time and money becomes available.......

1, Make a remote switch box to control the lathe so I can mount the VFD out of the way. (switches etc are ordered)
2, Paint the Collet holder, steady rest and follower rest.
3, Buy or make some new hardware. The bolts that hold the gear box and apron in place are marred up a little as well as a lit of the set screws etc.
4, Align the tailstock. In fact check the alignment on the whole lathe. (I need to get some sort of aligning bar)
5, Buy a 4 jaw chuck and holder.
6, Set the gear train up correctly for Metric threading. (New 56t gear is on its way, I have the rest)
7, Replace all the felts etc
8, Replace headstock end washer with a thrust bearing of some sort.
9, Source some new oil cups from somewhere or make some.
10, Machine a better way to hold some of the gear train gears so they are not as loose and hopefully itll make the gears quieter.
11, Practice, practice and practice..........

Im sure there is more but thats the main list for this year..........


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## Danshell (Aug 3, 2020)

I hope its ok but I changed the title to reflect what is happening in this thread.


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## Danshell (Aug 19, 2020)

I received the original manufacture card for my South Bend today and I also had an email conversation with the gent I bought it off so I know little more about it.

As per the serial search it was in fact manufactured in 1963. It was sold to Amsted Industries in Luxembourg. Everything that came with it is all the original equipment including the travel rest and steady rest. The gent that sold it to me, sold it with a brand new quick change gear box, and I mean brand spanka.....it had been sitting around for 50 years but had never been used. He also gave me the full set of metric transposing gears, also brand new.

It had an odd tooth count for the gears as per the card (which were also on it when i got it) so I assume the Amsted were using it for some oddball job in a mass production manner??

Anyway, the gent said he bought it from an importer in the Philippines in the 70's. He had it and all his other gear shipped to Australia when he migrated over here and it sat in his garage ever since. He had all intentions of fixing it up but never got around to it.

So at a guess for the 10 years it was actually used it looks like someone has crunched the original gearbox and it was simply put out of commission. The original gear box had a couple of gears that had the sides stripped off them so someone has been changing speeds while it was running. The lead screw gear didnt look a lot better, nor did the idler gear. But everything else on the lathe when I got it besides being dirty was tight and like new basically.

I am very happy I found its history.


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## Mechanik (May 23, 2021)

Hi Dan
Is this thread live? 
I  just bought a 10K just like yours, a few years older (1959/60). 
I'm starting to refurbish so any advice is welcome. 
(I'm an Aussie expat BTW, living in LA).


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## Danshell (Aug 18, 2021)

Sorry for the late reply. Only advice I can give is that there are a lot of great youtube videos out there that will tell you everything you need to know.
I love my old lathe btw, it does everything I need and is a far better machine than I am.


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## yota (Aug 18, 2021)

very nice.  I have a 1953 SB9A.   the SB9's and the 10K's share many if not most parts.  have you seen this?



			http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/1617/3677.pdf


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## Danshell (Aug 18, 2021)

Just as an update, I did install a remote switch panel to operate the VFD.


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