# General Questions



## Investigator (Jun 8, 2016)

Like many here it seems, I am looking to buy my first lathe.  I want to make sure I understand what I think I understand and ask you folks for feedback.

For disscussion purposes, I am looking at the Grizzly 10x22's and 11x26 bench lathes.

Am I correct in my understanding that the spindle speeds are controlled by either a variable speed DC Motor or by the gear box and that the gear's are not removed and swapped out to change speeds......
And based on that, the "Change Gears" are only to change the speed/ratio of the feed screw in relation to the spindle...
and that the feed screw speed/ratio only determines the feed rate for either powered feed cuts or threading?

I have wanted a lathe for years, and have been looking for used.  However, good used machines are not widely available in my area.  I have decided to buy new.  My budget is about $2000 which would make the Grizzly 10 and 11 inch lathes doable, as well as the PM 10x22 and 10x30.  However, if I go with the PM's, my tooling budget is going to be limited.

My intentions for using the lathe are doing light gunsmith work such as threading my own barrels and cutting them down, working on pre-threaded and contoured short chambered bolt action barrels, and making suppressors (I've built one, have Form 1's in hand, all legal).  Mostly I plan on playing and making 'stuff' for fun, no production at all.

The thing is, I don't know enough about lathes or working with them to know what features I want or need.  I keep hearing about  getting as big as I can afford.  I'm thinking the 11x26 is there, but wonder about the value of the variable speed motor on the 752.

What questions should I be asking myself to help make the decision?


----------



## Steve M (Jun 8, 2016)

I would consider largest inside bore on the spindle, the ease of mounting a spider on the rear of the spindle to keep support the end of  barrels being worked on, slowest possible low speed, longest bed possible, availability of 4 jaw chuck, live center, and ease of speed change.  Of the above, the slow low speed for threading purposes, 4 jaw chuck, and largest spindle ID the most important.  Most of the smaller lathes have a slow speed of 150 RPM or so, a little fast for me when threading.

You won't need a huge amount of tooling but I would start with a quick change toolpost, dial indicator and stand, calipers and or outside micrometer, a worklight, and a set of inexpensive carbide cutters (the kind with brazed tips).  You will also need things like a file and various grits of silicon carbide sandpaper.  I'd go for the most machine possible and go from there.  The only tooling you absolutely need is a caliper and cutters, but the QCTP is definitely almost a must to have.  

For the record most guys here use a die to cut threads on the barrels - you can get those from Brownells.

Good luck and have fun. 

Steve in Central TX


----------



## Bob Korves (Jun 8, 2016)

Steve M. is telling you in a nice way that you would be better off with a larger lathe if you plan to do real gunsmith work, especially rifle barrel work.  12x36 would be a good place to start, with a larger spindle bore, 1.5" or so.  You can probably find a used one, perhaps with some tooling, for the same or less cost than you are looking at for a smaller Grizzly lathe.  It will be better in almost every respect compared to the smaller lathe, at the cost of searching for an appropriate candidate, checking it over carefully for issues, negotiating a good price, getting it home, setting it up and dealing with any issues it has, and cleaning it up to your standards.  A new Grizzly lathe will also be a project on some level.  They are not necessarily plug and play, you will probably find issues.  Of course, you will also need to have or make room for a bigger lathe.  There are used machines in Texas, just be patient...


----------



## Steve M (Jun 8, 2016)

I concur with Mr Korves.  Didn't want to suggest a 12x36 but they are so much more full featured than the smaller lathes.  I have one, having graduated from a 3-in-1 a few years back and it is like comparing a Fiat 500 to a Toyota Land Cruiser.


----------



## Investigator (Jun 8, 2016)

I hear the advice to 'buy larger' often, and I try to be open minded enough to listen.  But let me ask a different question regarding the smaller (10-11 inch) lathes;  What/who are they made for?  Who is the target customer for the 602 or 752?  What niche do they fill?  Who would you consider that size lathe ideal for?


----------



## Bob Korves (Jun 9, 2016)

Investigator said:


> I hear the advice to 'buy larger' often, and I try to be open minded enough to listen.  But let me ask a different question regarding the smaller (10-11 inch) lathes;  What/who are they made for?  Who is the target customer for the 602 or 752?  What niche do they fill?  Who would you consider that size lathe ideal for?


Those machines are fine for general tinkering in the shop and making things that fit within their envelope, power, and speed range.  They are less rigid, which can be compensated for, but are slower to get work done.  Usually the spindle speeds are too high for larger work in harder materials like steel, regardless of the stated capacity of the lathe.  All that said, small lathes can certainly do very respectable work at the hands of a capable machinist.


----------



## Bob Korves (Jun 9, 2016)

Full disclosure:  I have a Kent KLS-1340a lathe, 13x40.  It fits my needs well and I am quite happy with it.  Got it used, ~5 years old, but in new condition, must have been run for less than an hour total, still had nearly all the Cosmoline on it.  There was about a teaspoon of very fine brass shavings in the chip pan.  Was owned by a custom plumbing dealer.  Came with all the factory tooling as well as three brazed carbide tool bits, one had the protective plastic partially peeled off and showed signs of having been used -- trying to cut on the wrong side of the left hand turning tool(!)...  $3K.  Cleaned it up, tightened and adjusted everything, changed the oil in the gearboxes that looked like molasses, and put it to work.  This is the smallest lathe sold by Kent, who sells lots of industrial machinery.  It is a Chinese import.  Yes, there are deals out there, some much better than this one...
http://www.kentusa.com/lathes-2/manual-economy-series/kls-1340a-manual-engine-lathe/


----------



## Steve M (Jun 9, 2016)

Investigator, I think you will quickly find the smaller spindle bore and the 150 rpm slowest speed to be real limitations doing gunsmithing type work.   I was in your shoes a few years ago and was amazed at what a giant leap the 12x machines were.  The 12x36 class lathes and up just have a lot more features like D series chucks, separate leadscrew and power feed shafts, to mention a few. The smaller lathes with variable speed generally require a gear change to get all the speeds whereas the gearbox equipped 12x lathes just require moving a lever.  Also check out the weights of the various lathes, the 12x lathes are 300# or more heavier than the 11x and down.  

That said, the 11x lathes look really good spec-wise.  Spindle bores are a little smaller, low end speeds are higher in most, and they have less mass than the bigger machines.  The PM-1127 looks to be a great lathe but its cost isn't far from the 12x machines. 

The 10x lathes  are a big step down from there.  I know several folks who started out on the smaller machines and after a couple years, all moved up to the larger ones.  As I mentioned it is like cars.  A VW Beetle, a Kia, and BMW will all get you and a few friends where you are going, but it will be quicker and a lot more pleasant and comfortable in the BMW.   

My put if budget is a consideration would be to find a used 12x or if not, get an 11x series,  Don't bother with the 10x.  Just some thoughts to consider.


----------



## talvare (Jun 9, 2016)

Well, I guess I'll add my two cents to this conversation. First, let me say that I am a hobbyist, not a professional machinist. I think the advice you've been given so far is very good. A couple of points I would like to stress (which applies directly to the Grizzly lathes you're considering) is the importance of rigidity in selecting a lathe. Generally speaking, mass is directly proportional to rigidity. The capacity of the lathe in terms of swing, doesn't necessarily relate to rigidity. To give you a good example of what I'm talking about, compare the Grizzly 10x22 lathe you are considering to a Monarch 10EE. Both are 10" swing lathes, but they aren't even in the same universe when talking about rigidity, and rigidity is directly related to the ability to perform quality, precision machine work. Also, as stated above, spindle speed selection is very important. It's really nice to have a low speed of 50 RPM or less when threading and parting. Personally, I wouldn't consider a lathe that I had to use change-gears with. I think you will get tired of that feature very quickly. I could go on for another hour, but I'm afraid your eyes may be glazing over already, so I'll stop for now.

Ted


----------



## Investigator (Jun 9, 2016)

Bob Korves said:


> Steve M. is telling you in a nice way that you would be better off with a larger lathe if you plan to do real gunsmith work, especially rifle barrel work.  12x36 would be a good place to start,.





Steve M said:


> I concur with Mr Korves.  Didn't want to suggest a 12x36 but they are so much more full featured than the smaller lathes.  I have one, having graduated from a 3-in-1 a few years back and it is like comparing a Fiat 500 to a Toyota Land Cruiser.





talvare said:


> Well, I guess I'll add my two cents to this conversation.
> Ted



A timely change in subject if you will, I have ran accross a 13x36 Clausing.  I am a total newbie, so what do I need to know about them?  I understand parts are hard to get?


----------



## Bob Korves (Jun 9, 2016)

I know little about Clausing lathes beyond that they are well thought of by their owners.  Tell us more about the lathe for sale, condition, tooling, price, known issues, etc., and I sure you will find help here.


----------



## Investigator (Jun 9, 2016)

From the ad:

Clausing Colchester 13x36 Gearhead engine lathe
It has a 6" 3 jaw chuck, Collet Closer, Square indexable Toolpost and 6" Faceplate.
Live center and Drill Chuck 
L-0 Spindle Nose, #3 morse taper in the tailstock, and 1.53" thru the spindle.
3 hp single phase motor with reversing switch. Just plug it into a 220v dryer outlet.

Hardened ways look good, and only about .003" backlash in the cross slide leadscrew. 
Made in England.

The one issue it has is the power feed will advance to a point, then will need to be advanced
by hand a short distance until it catches and resumes power feed.

Come by and see it run, and I can load on a utility trailer. 

Asking price is 1300


----------



## talvare (Jun 9, 2016)

From what little I know, Clausing has a pretty good reputation. The company is still in business but I don't know if they support the older machinery, but you could certainly give them a call if that is a concern. In regard to the power feed issue, my first thought is that there may be a gear in the apron that's missing a tooth or two. That in itself may not be a deal killer because there are generally avenues to acquire parts. You may not be able to get an original part, but there are several suppliers of gears that could likely provide something that could be made to work. With that being said, the more important question may be "what caused the broken gear". The lathe may have had a crash. If you go to look at it, look carefully for any cracked castings, especially the apron castings. The price seems reasonable if the lathe is in satisfactory condition and the power feed issue should give you a little bargaining power. You may want to pose your questions about this lathe on the Clausing - LeBlond forum on this site.

Ted


----------

