# 1st,& 2nd knurl



## Aukai (Feb 14, 2020)

I was playing with a 1" unknown steel bar using the diamond tool I found in the drawer that I forgot I had. It faced well, and I did 2 cuts in the .03/.04 range I didn't zero anything just playing. I measured, and had .0872, and then busted out the new knurling tool. First one was real bad, my center line wasn't....With a little more care on setting center line it came out better. I also found that tight is subjective. I tried to get a better bite on the 2nd one, and the lathe would not rotate. Backed it off went off/on tightening it each one, and got the second pass results. Watch out Will, I'm coming for ya....Yeah right  
The phone ap said .864 to start, I checked on it after, so I don't know.


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## benmychree (Feb 14, 2020)

diameter is important on knurling, the knurl will not track properly on just any diameter, for fractional diameters, diametral pitch knurls work best, for odd diameters, circular pitch knurls seem to work better.


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## Aukai (Feb 14, 2020)

Thank you, that's important to know.


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## mikey (Feb 15, 2020)

Mike, there are a few things that might help.

Try to always chamfer the work piece so the knurls climb on smoothly.
As benmychree said, there is a difference between dimetral pitch and circular pitch knurls. In the former case, your work needs to be some nominal diameter in 32nds of an inch or they can mistrack more easily. For CP knurls, you don't need to turn the work to a specific diameter; just slowly increase pressure the knurls will track.
In order to improve knurl life, try not to go beyond a 90% pattern. There should be a trace of a dimple on each peak. Most knurls are too sharp to handle at 100% and we would file it in that case so just easier not to go too far.
Knurling is a high pressure operation when knurling steels. Sulfur-bearing oils work better for this. For aluminum, WD-40 is okay but regular cutting oil or Relton A-9 works better.
Slow down the lathe. Knurling is not a high speed operation.
Will doesn't need to worry yet but someday he will!


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## darkzero (Feb 15, 2020)

Wanna know one of my secrets?








.......











I bet you do.   












.........


















Ok, not much of a secret but for axial feeding I use convex wheels. They perform so much better than beveled wheels. Cobalt convex wheels from Accu-Trak to be exact. I like Accu-Trak knurling wheels so much they're all I'll ever use now.


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## darkzero (Feb 15, 2020)

Aukai said:


> Will, I'm coming for ya...





mikey said:


> Will doesn't need to worry yet but someday he will!










Practice, practice, & practice is all I did. I'm still learning!

A bit of motivation.......

Titanium 6AL4V


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## mikey (Feb 15, 2020)

mikey said:


> Will doesn't need to worry yet but someday he will!



Okay, maybe that someday might be a bit further into the future than I had visualized at first!

Come on, Mike, hurry up and practice ...


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## Aukai (Feb 15, 2020)

Thank you gentlemen, I haven't even gotten close to axial traversing yet.


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## Aukai (Feb 15, 2020)

Practice takes a lot of stock, and turning(erasing)


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## mikey (Feb 15, 2020)

Brah, let me tell you, it takes all of us time and practice. Except Will maybe. Between you and me, I think the guy is a mutant that has turned knurling into an art form.


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## darkzero (Feb 15, 2020)

Aukai said:


> Practice takes a lot of stock, and turning(erasing)



Just don't practice on titanium or stainless like I did! 

Aluminum is the best (cheapest) to practice on. Heck I even experimented on delrin, mainly cause I was curious. I didn't think form knurling could be done on delrin but it came out a lot better than I expected. I ran it bone dry too.


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## Aukai (Feb 15, 2020)

All of my stock has to come from online, I do have some on hand, just need to restock. They are mostly 6-12" lengths, 1" down to 1/2" I think


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## mmcmdl (Feb 15, 2020)

Gotta pic coming Mike . I can't post it .................................but you can !


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## Aukai (Feb 15, 2020)

Practice material, bolt shoulders from the die?


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## middle.road (Feb 15, 2020)

6061 Aluminum seems to 'gall' more so than 7075. At least that has been my experience doing up ~1" DIA pieces.
When I picked up some 7075 I was pleasantly surprised by how much better the end results were.
Using lots of WD40, it's amazing the amount of swarf that comes off the wheels when doing copper/brass/aluminum.
Haven't ever tried titanium, probably above the capacity of my home-brewed knurler...


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## Aukai (Feb 15, 2020)

7075 is a harder alloy I would assume.


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## rwm (Feb 15, 2020)

Will- Where do you get those knurl wheels from? I can't seem to find them and the one I see are crazy expensive.
Robert


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## Aukai (Feb 15, 2020)

Accu-Trak to be exact. I like Accu-Trak knurling wheels so much they're all I'll ever use now.  
   Quoted from above.
It resembles looking at insert cutter selections


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## rwm (Feb 15, 2020)

I just realized you can order direct from their site! Thanks
But can you tell me what pitch knurl this is:


That is stunning.
Robert


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## Aukai (Feb 15, 2020)

These are forming knurls too right?


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## darkzero (Feb 15, 2020)

rwm said:


> I just realized you can order direct from their site! Thanks
> But can you tell me what pitch knurl this is:
> View attachment 313717
> 
> ...



Thanks. That was a finer pitch than I normally use. I'll check the exact pitch when I get home.



Aukai said:


> These are forming knurls too right?



Yes, eveything I have been posting were form knurls. Haven't played with my cut knurlers yet.


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## mmcmdl (Feb 15, 2020)

Accu-traks here for me also . I have the beveled and straight sets depending on what needs to be done .


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## mmcmdl (Feb 15, 2020)

Aukai said:


> Practice material, bolt shoulders from the die?



38 3/8-16 x 2 inch grade 8 SHCSs hold this together . Die is 17-4ph stainless heat treated to 48RC . We run it 4 hrs a week and then strip it down , bake it out , polish it out and re-assemble . Go thru alot of bolts !   This is one of our smaller dies .


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## rwm (Feb 15, 2020)

Will- What do you normally use? 
R


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## darkzero (Feb 15, 2020)

rwm said:


> Will- What do you normally use?
> R



The one above that you asked about I used 40 TPI, 5/8". That's a pretty fine knurl IMO so I don't use 40 TPI on anything larger than 5/8" dia.

I use 21 TPI more often on diameters between 5/8" - 1". Most of the other examples I posted the past few days or so were 21 TPI. To be specific, 30° angle & 90° tooth angle. Same for the single diagonal knurls I do.


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## rwm (Feb 16, 2020)

Cool. I'm going to buy some better wheels. I also need to rebuild my chinese knurler so the arms are straight! Or build one from scratch. Of course it may be cheaper and easier to contract the work out to Will!


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## Aukai (Feb 16, 2020)

I cannot seem to get the resolution for the pictures like Will does, but here are tries 3&4 with power feed. Talk about a circus, but here's how it went. As advertised the 6061 is more forgiving, and will be a serviceable knurl. I do need to work more on my chamfering, on the 6061 I put a quarter of the wheel on the shoulder, tightened, and hand rolled until I was happy with the pattern, put lots of oil engaged the power feed, then turned the lathe on, and let it run. Disengaged, and turned it off at the end of the run. This step did not work well on the steel piece. On the steel piece disengaging before turning off the lathe left a visible stripe showing at the end. I think killing the RPM first may stop that, I'll see next time. I did the same start up procedure after taking a skim cut off of the steel bar, in another thread Mikey says that it may take away some of the surface hardness from shaping the bar. So carriage is engaged, start the lathe on the steel bar, and the clutch starts popping, stopped the process in place, then backed off the piece. tightened up the clutch, reengaged the wheels at about the same tightness(it shows different), then started it up, and let it run. At the end is where I think I'll change the order, and see if it makes a difference. I disengaged travel, then killed power, kill the power, disengage, back it off is what I'll try next. Sorry this gets a little redundant, I'm not quite as eloquent as our teachers are. Hope it might be helpful to someone, still a long way to go.....
The top piece is the steel, the bottom is 6061


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## mikey (Feb 16, 2020)

Getting better, Mike. Instead of stopping the lathe, why not let it run and feed back out?

On the steel piece, it looks like the pattern is well formed at the beginning and then gets less and less formed as you go down the rod. I wonder if your feed rate is too fast?


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## Aukai (Feb 16, 2020)

I may have to slow it down, that is where the clutch was popping, and it ran longer there. Are you saying to stop, and reverse rotation?


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## mikey (Feb 16, 2020)

No, just disengage power feed and crank it back out manually.


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## Aukai (Feb 16, 2020)

OK, going out, and erasing these, and give it a try


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## Cadillac (Feb 16, 2020)

Since we’re on the subject of knurling how many passes does it take to get a correct knurl. Is their a specific depth with each type of knurl or is it visual/appearance?


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## Aukai (Feb 17, 2020)

I was going to part this off, but turned it instead, and did a short power feed on, and manual back off. I then turned it down again, and did a static impression with only moderate pressure, and confirmed my thoughts, unequal impression. Before I tried to do the static impression I checked dimensions, no taper. I was going to try another run, that's why there is a small shadow on the leading edge. So what is causing me to not have a flat equal impression? I am using a 1-2-3 block to square the tool post to the chuck.


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## middle.road (Feb 17, 2020)

On the aluminum, brass, and copper I did up, I'd disengage the feed and stop when I got to the desired position, change the direction, start it back up, increase the pressure while using a mirror to see it, and then engage and go back to the beginning.
A double pass so to say.


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## mikey (Feb 17, 2020)

Mike, is it me or is there a dip in the middle of your work piece? If so, that's your answer. Look at pic #1 above.


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## Aukai (Feb 17, 2020)

I think it's optical Mike, that piece measured out over the short length. I parted that off, and did a longer piece, I'm only using a dial caliper, but it's measuring out. This episode was back, and forth passes, with tightening at the turn. It appears to make a better looking knurl, like I said it is an unidentified type of steel. Keep practicing, pau for tonight.... Well it seems the left end is still under developed, I'll DTI the shaft for a better reading tomorrow.


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## mikey (Feb 17, 2020)

Please check something for me, Mike. Are the set screws that hold your pins tight?


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## Aukai (Feb 17, 2020)

One was loose before this last pass, both were tight for this one though.
This bar is taking a lot of pressure, and making a good amount of heat in the process.


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## middle.road (Feb 17, 2020)

Knurling in paradise on a Sunday night.   


Aukai said:


> One was loose before this last pass, both were tight for this one though.


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## Aukai (Feb 17, 2020)

I cannot find where I got this piece from, I could be wrong but it might be stress proof drops. I do not really know for sure.


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## mikey (Feb 17, 2020)

Something is moving. If the work is straight and the knurler is not backing out during the cut then I don't know what could be doing this.


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## Aukai (Feb 17, 2020)

What is backing out? The wheel shaft/axle?


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## mikey (Feb 17, 2020)

The tensioning adjuster on the knurler. What I see happening is that the pattern is getting lighter and lighter as you go in. If the work is not tapered then the only thing that can do that is that the wheels have to be applying less pressure. Since each arm applies half the pressure, it cannot be one of them; has to be both, and the only things that can do that is if the wheels are moving on the pins or the tensioning nut is backing off. It could be something else but I can't think of what it might be.


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## darkzero (Feb 17, 2020)

K1-201 only has a tensioner nut. The K1-44 has a tensioner nut & has an additional stainless nut. Make sure you are tightening that additional nut to prevent the tensioner nut from backing out. I replaced mine with a stainless nylock nut.


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## mikey (Feb 17, 2020)

What am I missing here, Will? Have you ever seen this pattern before?


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## Aukai (Feb 17, 2020)

I have been neglecting the lock nut just because of the short runs pure, and simple, no excuses. Lord


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## mikey (Feb 17, 2020)

Bad boy!


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## darkzero (Feb 17, 2020)

Although a scissor knurler isn't subject to the same amount of tool pressure as a bump knurler there is still tool pressure. Lock your cross slide if possible. Also be sure you have both wheels on centerline of the workpiece (vertical plane). The scissor tool has to be on center line of the spindle axis to achieve this. If not, under high forces when attempting a fully formed knurl the wheels will want to roll off.

Make sure your tool post is tight. You shouldn't need to pin your tool post but I had to with certain diameters w/ Ti. But my Dorian has the pin feature, not all QCTPs do. Not sure how much stickout your workpiece is but use a live center if needed to add rigidity. Can also position you compound at either 0° or 90° to help with rigidity & make sure the compound slide isn't hanging off the slide. Lock the compoud slide too.


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## Aukai (Feb 17, 2020)

Jiminy Crickets....


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## darkzero (Feb 17, 2020)

mikey said:


> What am I missing here, Will? Have you ever seen this pattern before?



Which pic were you guys talking about? Post #33? Sorry, had 2 long days already helping a buddy move, back there again tomorrow. My eyes are tired & I'm not up for doing much catch up today.


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## Aukai (Feb 17, 2020)

OK, I'll get back at this again, I'm the culprit here, thanks for the help.


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## mikey (Feb 17, 2020)

darkzero said:


> Which pic were you guys talking about? Post #33? Sorry, had 2 long days already helping a buddy move, back there again tomorrow. My eyes are tired & I'm not up for doing much catch up today.



Post 36.


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## darkzero (Feb 17, 2020)

mikey said:


> What am I missing here, Will? Have you ever seen this pattern before?



2nd pic in post #33, the small end, was this knurling before what the first pic in the same post or a different test piece?

The 2nd pic, the small end. That looks like it's wanting to double track. Starting knurling diameter is off from the pitch knurls being used. Feeding in more (the tensioner) for a deeper knurl will most likely get it back on track.

1st pic, on the right end of the larger diameter. Getting that different result from the center cause that is either where you stopped or starting the knurl. It ran over that area more than the center area when traversing. Tool pressure varied & is why it came out different. Sometimes that can't be avoided. Just compensate by knurling a long length, cut that area off & discard. If this is not a option. As you reach the end of the knurl, back the tool off (retract with the cross slide). Start end may not be able to be avoided cause this is where you are testing from proper tracking & knurl depth. Again knurl extra length & cut off if possible. You can start traversing from either end to plan for that area to be cut off.


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## darkzero (Feb 17, 2020)

mikey said:


> Post 36.



Tool looks setup pretty square to the work & no double tracking, good job. Looks like he started the thread on the left side & fed to the right. Start of the thread can look different like I explained above but that does look like more variation than what I'm used to. Aside from the left side, the right side does looks slightly different too than the center. Could also be what I talked about above or just the camera. Knurling can give weird optical illusions on camera due to depth & focus/focal point.

Edit: Another possibility is the starting diameter that was machined. Are both ends the same diameter....in other words, is your lathe turning a taper?


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## darkzero (Feb 17, 2020)

Aukai said:


>



BTW Mike, no need to chase perfection. That's a nice respectable knurl especially considering you just started playing around with the tool. As I mentioned above, no double tracking there & square to the axis. I've seen knurls that don't even look close to that good on commercially sold products. You should be happy with that.


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## Aukai (Feb 17, 2020)

Thank you very much for the encouragement Will. I'm throwing all my rubbish in the pile, and hope it helps someone with the guidance that I'm getting to improve. You guy's rock


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## Aukai (Feb 17, 2020)

Will, is there a vendor you use for the wheels? When I called they wanted me to find one since I'm not a company.


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## darkzero (Feb 17, 2020)

Accu-trak? No, I order directly from them. They never told me anything like that.


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## Aukai (Feb 17, 2020)

Hummm, he asked me company name, I said personal. Then he asked me to try MSC. I know the online order form has a PO number. I think I'll just make up my own company, and PO#.
Unless you have a contact person you use.


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## darkzero (Feb 17, 2020)

I just looked at the order form & it has a field for residential address so I don't understand them asking you. I don't recall if they asked me on my orders, it's been a while. But I have a company name that I use (not real though). I would just make up a co name too. No contact, I just place my order with whoever answers the phone. They are not a big company.

I'm not aware of any Accu-trak distributors but then again it's been a few yrs since my last order.


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## Aukai (Feb 17, 2020)

Thanks Will


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## rwm (Feb 17, 2020)

I think I want to build this Accu Trak tool:




Looks like it could me made out of CRS plate with some brazing or machined out of solid stock.

Robert


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## Aukai (Feb 17, 2020)

That would be too ambitious for me. 
Another thing that had me raise my eyebrows, was that the guy said he's not familiar with an Eagle Rock K1-44


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## darkzero (Feb 17, 2020)

Probably cause they sell their own knurling tools. Not sure if they make their own like the straddle knurling tool pictured above but I'm pretty sure they don't make their own cut knurlers. I have 2 cut knurlers which are identical to the ones they sell but mine are made in Spain.

I don't bother mentioning what tool I'm ordering for, no need really. Just order the size knurls you need


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## rwm (Feb 17, 2020)

Aukai said:


> That would be too ambitious for me.


Apparently I only build tools, and not much other useful stuff!
Robert


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## Aukai (Feb 17, 2020)

Way ahead of me.....


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## ddickey (Feb 17, 2020)

I've bought several pair from them also, no problems.


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## mikey (Feb 17, 2020)

Cadillac said:


> Since we’re on the subject of knurling how many passes does it take to get a correct knurl. Is their a specific depth with each type of knurl or is it visual/appearance?



Finally getting back to this thread and noticed nobody discussed this with you.

I don't know that there is a right answer to this but I try to minimize the number of passes I take, especially on harder materials but also in softer stuff. In the former case, this is to reduce the potential for work hardening. In the latter case, it is to reduce flaking. Aluminum and brass flake like crazy so I tend to go for an almost full pattern the first time.

A full pattern produces sharp peaks. Form Roll, the knurl maker, recommends we not go for more than a 90% depth pattern. Going deeper is "abuse", so I try to go for a depth that leaves a tiny flat or crater on top of each peak in a diamond knurl. This is a set and try type of thing and I don't get obsessive about it. I put the wheels on the centerline over and under the work, with the wheels about halfway on the end of the work piece, then I apply some pressure and look for the depth of the pattern I want and also to make sure I don't mistrack. Once I get what I want, I make the full run at once. 

I tend to run a bit on the fast side for most things, close to turning speeds for softer stuff but I do slow down for stainless and harder steels. For aluminum and brass, I'm running about 120 SFM and maybe about 50 SFM for steels. I feed by hand most of the time and will feed back out about twice the speed I used to feed in. 

I use a lot of lubricant, maybe more than I should, but I'm doing it to lube the knurl and the pins, too.

This works for me.


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## rwm (Feb 17, 2020)

You feed by hand? Not under power? Please elaborate. 
Robert


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## mikey (Feb 17, 2020)

Most knurls I make are not long, maybe 6" or less, so power is not really necessary. Depending on the amount of pressure I use for that work piece, it is easier for me to control the pattern manually. I feed as fast as the pattern allows. That is, I feed as fast as I can while ensuring I get a full and even pattern. I have found this helps minimize flaking. I manually feed out about twice as fast as I went in. Works good for me.


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## darkzero (Feb 17, 2020)

I agree with Mikey. I too try to knurl in the least amount of passes possible to avoid/minimize flaking. I'm usually able to knurl Ti in one pass with my lathe so non-ferrous is no problem either for me.

90% full form is recommended cause it very easy to overshoot 100% depth and as far as functionality for grip, not needed. 100% can be too coarse on the hands for a coarse pitch knurl.

When you overshoot 100% it drastically reduces (damages) the quality of the knurl as it's trying to roll over the peaks. This extra material that gets displaced will roll into the workpiece. It can also damage or reduce the life of the knurling wheels.

With a knurling tool, feed is by eye, there is no dial or a means to measure how much feed on the wheels & the amount to feed varies depending on the work piece diamater & knurling wheel pitch.

Here's one of my first knurls on Ti done with 2 passes. You can see some of the flaking. This type of flaking is usually seen on harder materials. I suppose they can be picked out but would be very time consuming I imagine. As Mikey stated aluminum flakes like crazy but looks different & will usually get rolled into the work piece making it look like crap.


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## Aukai (Feb 17, 2020)

Something else to try....Mikey style


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## mikey (Feb 17, 2020)

darkzero said:


> Here's one of my first knurls on Ti done with 2 passes. You can see some of the flaking. This type of flaking is usually seen on harder materials. I suppose they can be picked out but would be very time consuming I imagine. As Mikey stated aluminum flakes like crazy but looks different & will usually get rolled into the work piece making it look like crap.
> 
> View attachment 313953



I dunno', Will, that looks really good to me. I can see some flakes but it's really minimal. 

This is a full pattern knurl. See the sharp peaks? It isn't overdone but it is a full knurl. If this is to be handled by hand it will be sharp so most of us will run a file over the top to take the sharpness off. A 90% knurl will not be as sharp, although I would still make a pass with a file to make it more user friendly. Aukai, this is a very nice knurl.


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## darkzero (Feb 17, 2020)

mikey said:


> I dunno', Will, that looks really good to me. I can see some flakes but it's really minimal.
> 
> This is a full pattern knurl. See the sharp peaks? It isn't overdone but it is a full knurl. If this is to be handled by hand it will be sharp so most of us will run a file over the top to take the sharpness off. A 90% knurl will not be as sharp, although I would still make a pass with a file to make it more user friendly. Aukai, this is a very nice knurl.



Thanks Mike. Yeah not too bad on the flaking on that one. I wonder if a wire brush would have cleaned it up. But I wasn't happy with it & never used that one, either it's in the scrap bin or I already reused the stock.

That was 1" dia & what I call a medium pitch knurl for the size. Yep too sharp on the hands. The only time I will use a fully formed knurl is for a very fine pitch knurl. They don't feel so sharp & they just look pretty. Lately I have just been doing partial form knurls, not really grippy at all, more for cosmetic I suppose.


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## mikey (Feb 17, 2020)

Yeah, I think after you get used to knurling, that sharp peak thing gets to be a bit much and a partial pattern knurl makes more sense. It's kind of dumb to make sharp peaks and then file them off, right?


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## mikey (Feb 17, 2020)

Here's one for you. It's called a Square Knurl. Any idea how it's made?


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## darkzero (Feb 17, 2020)

I suppose, haha. I guess it's just part of the learning process. We practice to achieve that "perfect" knurl, then when we are happy with what we have done we're at ease. I have done the same except I don't use a file. I'll take a very light skim cut or use emery cloth, same result though.


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## rwm (Feb 17, 2020)

I suppose you could do a straight knurl and then cut circumferential groves?
Robert


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## darkzero (Feb 17, 2020)

mikey said:


> Here's one for you. It's called a Square Knurl. Any idea how it's made?
> 
> View attachment 313988



I'm not sure but I assume either it was milled or done with a cut knurler. Never looked into it though.

On the flashlight forum some of the guys were making that pattern on flashlight bodies but not nearly as fine as that. They were milled though with an indexer then grooved on the lathe. Sometimes called a frag pattern like on a grenade.

One of my cut knurlers has 15° knurling wheels available in addition to the tool angle that produces a 45° angle knurl instead of the common 30°. But the angle is 45° out from that so still resembles a conventional diamond knurl rather than square (with the peaks machined flat) 90° knurl. Well I think, I don't own any of those knurls.


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## mikey (Feb 17, 2020)

rwm said:


> I suppose you could do a straight knurl and then cut circumferential groves?
> Robert



Yup, this is how it is done. This is one of Geo. H. Thomas's creations and it produces a grip-friendly knurl that doesn't require filing or sanding. Looks best with fine toothed straight knurls. You have to measure the valley between the peaks and grind a HSS tool to the same angle, then space them the same as the peaks. Cut in the same depth as each valley and you have it.


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## darkzero (Feb 17, 2020)

Here's a couple examples of the square frag pattern I was talking about.






Done by Fred Pilon aka Photon Fanatic. Fred does some amazing unbelievable manual machine work. I used to drool over his stuff & owned a couple of his flashlights.

I was really suprised when one day he contacted me to ask if I could supply some knurled blanks for him. I was honored & of course I couldn't say no. One of the blanks turned into this flashlight.








						The Indigo Flow, anodized Ti, RCR123, click flashlight–WIP
					

Thanks to darkzero on CPF, I was able to get a couple more bars of diagonally knurled Titanium. My hope is to anodize the diagonal knurls, as well as the axial grooves on the light, but then to tak…




					photonfanatic.blog
				







He also contracted me to build the light engines for one of the model flashlights he was selling. That's what these circled in red were.




Those light engines went into these flashlights.




Man do I really miss my flashlight modding days. But I don't miss the total lack of free time which is why I quit. It took me like 6 months to clear my backlog after I stopped accepting new orders.


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## Aukai (Feb 17, 2020)

I just barely got out of the other thread about lights without buying one, it was close though.....
Those are some nicely done bodies.


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## mikey (Feb 18, 2020)

Will, how much do those custom flashlights go for?


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## Aukai (Feb 18, 2020)

About that much....


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## darkzero (Feb 18, 2020)

Not sure about these days but custom titanium flashlights easily fetched $500- $1000+ & they went up in value second hand depending on the maker & rarity. The one I carry made by Mcgizmo was $420 or something like that direct from him if you got your hands one one but always go for much more second hand due to the popularity of Don's lights & the limited runs. He lives in HI too.

Fred's (Photon Fanatic) custom Ti lights I imagine easily cost around $1k or more. Exotic metals like damasacs, mokume, timascas, etc fetch a lot more due to the high cost of the materials.


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## Aukai (Feb 18, 2020)




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## mikey (Feb 18, 2020)

darkzero said:


> Not sure about these days but custom titanium flashlights easily fetched $500- $1000+ & they went up in value second hand depending on the maker & rarity. The one I carry made by Mcgizmo was $420 or something like that direct from him if you got your hands one one but always go for much more second hand due to the popularity of Don's lights & the limited runs. He lives in HI too.
> 
> Fred's (Photon Fanatic) custom Ti lights I imagine easily cost around $1k or more. Exotic metals like damasacs, mokume, timascas, etc fetch a lot more due to the high cost of the materials.



Wow ... just wow!


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## Aukai (Feb 18, 2020)

Mikey do you remember what IPD stand for in local terminology?








IPEELDISSY


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## darkzero (Feb 18, 2020)

mikey said:


> Wow ... just wow!



That's nothing. Custom knives are even crazier! I've never paid more than $500- $600 for a flashlight or knife though. That's my limit. Anything more than that & I won't even take it out of the house. Heck I have $300 knives that have never seen day light.

I got issues, I seem to always pick the expensive hobbies unknowingly that I can't afford. Cars, RC cars, flashlights, knives, machining. Of all my hobbies though machining has cost me the most by far. Hopefully this my last expensive hobby.


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## mikey (Feb 18, 2020)

Yeah, Will, you are sick ... but you got company! I got into photography in 1968 and I never stopped - that is a deeeep hole! I have so many hobbies that cost money that its a wonder I'm not flat broke. I have to agree, though, that machining is the worst!


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## darkzero (Feb 18, 2020)

Haha, that's good to know that we are not alone! Yeah I've met some photography guys. That is a pretty expensive hobby! I had no idea.


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## Aukai (Feb 18, 2020)

You guys haven't been commercial fisherman as a side job


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## Aukai (Feb 19, 2020)

Still messing around with the knurls. Got Accu Traks coming.

erasing




playing


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## mikey (Feb 19, 2020)

So, has the mystery of the tapering pattern been resolved?


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## darkzero (Feb 19, 2020)

I don't know but now I'm seeing longitudinal grooves with an interesting pattern in them. How was that pattern made? I hope my eyes are not giving up on me.


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## mikey (Feb 19, 2020)

I'm guessing an end mill held by a drill chuck in the QCTP that was driven by a drill.


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## Aukai (Feb 19, 2020)

LOLO heads,,,,hex collet in the mill with a 1/4" bull nose 2 flute bit, after knurling, and grooving, then back to the lathe for pictures. The far end still gets a lighter pattern.


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## mikey (Feb 19, 2020)

Eh, more than one way to skin a cat and all that. 

This is a full depth pattern that looks a lot more even, Mike, but there is a lot of flaking. How many passes did you make to get this pattern?

You might try putting a little more than half the width of the wheel on the end of the work and apply enough pressure to make sure the pattern tracks. You do this by turning the chuck by hand and watching the pattern emerge. If it mistracks, apply more pressure to the knurls. Once it tracks, increase pressure until you get the pattern depth you want, then back the tool off of the work. Make sure the locking nut is tightened against the main nut so it can't back off on you. You should have already put a generous chamfer on the work so start the lathe and apply some lube, then just feed the tool onto the work piece and run it down the work piece. This is made much easier if your knurls have beveled edges or is a convex knurl. 

If you wish to avoid flaking as much as possible, open up the knurler to take pressure of the wheels and just back the tool out. Or you can leave it in contact but feed out fast. 

Give it a try.


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## Aukai (Feb 19, 2020)

I will, this was a run in tighten, run back out, I am tightening the lock nut now, always. PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE. Thank you....


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## Aukai (Feb 19, 2020)

I hope you guys can keep tolerating this. I need to try, and get some SS drops to practice on. I'm still waiting for the Accu traks, UPS ground, so next week probably, and the carbide pins too.
This is a single pass in only, plus the mill cuts....


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## mikey (Feb 19, 2020)

You need a tiny bit more pressure. See the craters on the peaks? You want most of that gone; just a tiny bit of crater is ideal.

There is very little flaking so that's really good. Now try increasing your speed and you'll see the pattern smooth out.

Getting there, Mike. Pattern is a lot more even now that you're locking the tension jam nut down.


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## Liljoebrshooter (Feb 19, 2020)

Dang those are really looking good.
I need to dig out my knurling tool and try some of these ideas. 
Joe


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## Aukai (Feb 19, 2020)

If I have my dials right this is the fastest speed in the low range for power feed, or up chuck RPM? If I didn't touch anything after the knurl, the RPM was 570. I have got to get a better view of the first impression, that is challenging to me
Thank you Joe, definitely a learning curve. There are excellent teachers here.


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## mikey (Feb 19, 2020)

Aukai said:


> If I have my dials right this is the fastest speed in the low range for power feed, or up chuck RPM? If I didn't touch anything after the knurl, the RPM was 570. I have got to get a better view of the first impression, that is challenging to me
> Thank you Joe, definitely a learning curve. There are excellent teachers here.



Nah, leave it at that speed. 

On the first impression thing, turn the chuck by hand and watch the pattern. Blow it out with compressed air if you have to but watch the formation of the peak. You'll see the crater start to disappear as you slowly increase pressure. When you have just a trace of the crater left, stop and lock the jam nut down, then run the knurl.

I think your knurls will improve after you install the convex knurls. Hang in there; you're getting better fast!


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## Aukai (Feb 19, 2020)

Thank you, my view plane to the first knurls is limited, I may need a mirror, more light, or better eyes. 
I also just ordered 3ea .750 x 12" SS drops for 50 bucks delivered


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## mattthemuppet2 (Feb 19, 2020)

looks good to me! Don't forget to flood it with kerosene if you're working with alu. To be honest the only nit I would pick would be with the milled groove, that's alot of chatter you have there. Unsupported work? Full depth pass? Maybe up the speed a bunch and cut the grooves in 2 passes?

I did my first proper knurl this weekend. Doesn't look anywhere near as good as yours, but it was a push knurl on a tiny lathe (Atlas 618) so it came out better than expected. Good enough for my QCTP holder height adjusters


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## mikey (Feb 19, 2020)

Aukai said:


> Thank you, my view plane to the first knurls is limited, I may need a mirror, more light, or better eyes.
> I also just ordered 3ea .750 x 12" SS drops for 50 bucks delivered



Use a mirror if you have to but you have to get that first track and pattern right if you plan to run that SS you ordered. Hope it was 303 but any kind of stainless will work harden so you want the finished depth established before you run the knurl. Trying to run a knurl on a work hardened piece can destroy the knurl quickly.

Will has a lot more experience running work hardening materials than I do and can give you better guidance.


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## Aukai (Feb 19, 2020)

I will need the help, it's 304 SS that I ordered. Not sure what grade is used for salt water gaff handles.
Matt the mill slot is done with lowish RPM, and slow feed with a 2 flute bull nose cutter. I was trying to see if I could get a pattern going. I'll have to see if I like a polished look too. Thanks


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## mikey (Feb 19, 2020)

If I'm not mistaken, 304 has better corrosion resistance than 303 but 303 is much easier to work with. All the more reason to learn how to get that pattern established before you knurl it.


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## Aukai (Feb 19, 2020)

I'm expecting the 304 to be hard to learn, but gonna give it a shot.


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## darkzero (Feb 19, 2020)

mikey said:


> Will has a lot more experience running work hardening materials than I do and can give you better guidance.



Mike (Aukai), the things I mentioned earlier about locking cross slide, compound slide, compound slide orientation, lock nut on the knurling tool, etc may all come in to play when you start knurling that 304. You may not need to but start with those things if it gives you trouble. Be sure to keep the work cool as 304 will harden easily. Least amount of passes as possible. Attempting a full knurl in one or 2 passes will require a lot of force & is why the things above will help.


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## Aukai (Feb 19, 2020)

Thanks for the heads up Will


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## darkzero (Feb 19, 2020)

You're gonna love those Accu-Trak convex wheels. They make a big difference over beveled wheels when traversing. They're made of cobalt, yrs ago they switch from TiN to AlTiN or something like that (used to be gold color, my last pair were dark grey). They last a while if not abused. Only down side to the convex wheels is they won't knurl up to a shoulder nicely since they're convex but I can live with that.

Oh & when you install the carbide pins, apply a light coat of EP grease for the wheels so they don't run dry right off the bat. After that, when you flood the knurls while knurling they should stay lubricated fine.


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## middle.road (Feb 20, 2020)

More lube! Lots of lube.
And once you get the 'good' wheels in that will make a big difference.
I started out scavenging wheels off of an import for my home-brew tool, then bought some NOS Armstrongs on eBay. Night and day difference.
In addition to all the recommendations listed above. . .


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## Aukai (Feb 20, 2020)

Thank you guys


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## Aukai (Feb 21, 2020)

Ebay kept bugging me, so I made an offer for 50 bucks, and they took it. I cannot get any images of what the pattern is going to look like, anyone have pictures, or a link?









						Convex Knurls KPLV450 Cobalt TiN 50 TPI LH Spiral Qty. 4  | eBay
					

$Convex Knurls KPLV450 Cobalt TiN 50 TPI LH Spiral Pattern: Left-Hand Diagonal Form or Cut Type: Form Material: Cobalt Knurl Diameter (Inch) : 3/4 Knurl Diameter (mm) : 19.05 Face Width (Inch) : 3/8 Hole Diameter (Inch) : 1/4 Hole Diameter (mm) : 6.35 Pitch System: Circular Pitch (mm) : 0.51...



					www.ebay.com


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## darkzero (Feb 21, 2020)

50 TPI is really fine, good for smaller diameters. The larger the diameter the finer it will get.

Looks like it's just LH knurls so no diamond pattern, just a single diagonal knurl.


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## Aukai (Feb 21, 2020)

Yeah, that is a drawback, that is what I paid for a pair of wheels from Accu trak, so it was just a what the hell purchase. If I like it, I'll look for a right.


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## rwm (Mar 5, 2020)

I just ordered 2 sets of knurls from Accutrak. I guess I'm building a knurling tool in another thread!
Knurlophobic Robert


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## Aukai (Mar 5, 2020)

Knurlophobic, or knurlaholic?


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## Cadillac (Mar 5, 2020)

What’s the marks where you ran the ball endmill?


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## rwm (Mar 5, 2020)

One may become the other, grasshopper.
Robert


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## middle.road (Mar 5, 2020)

Or both. Plus 'Knurling Junkie'


Aukai said:


> Knurlophobic, or knurlaholic?





rwm said:


> One may become the other, grasshopper.
> Robert


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## Silverbullet (Mar 5, 2020)

Everyone wants sharp pointed knurls. Much depends on material and technique.  But all are formed not really cut. Lubricant use is almost a constant with pressure , charts for sizes n speeds . The rest is you if your toolings in good condition and usable. So go make diamonds n practise.


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## rwm (Mar 31, 2020)

Darkzero- I have a knurl question for you since you are the resident expert! I took my Accutrak knurls that are marked as 20 TPI and I rolled them out on paper to check the pattern. When I count the marks per inch of paper I get 18 TPI? Is there another way this is calculated? Perhaps they use the pitch diameter (which would be smaller) but that would make the TPI even lower?
Robert


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## darkzero (Mar 31, 2020)

Thanks Robert but I'm certainly no expert! 

Unfortunately I have no idea. I have never thought to check any of my wheels like that, I always trusted what was marked on the wheels or I have counted the teeth on a wheel (just for fun). Accu-Trak has a chart on their site that lists the number of teeth for a given wheel size (diameter) & pitch. May not help answer what you are wondering but helps if the markings ever become unreadable.

Maybe somewhere in their technical resource might have the answer? Oh looks like they updated their website.





__





						Numbers of Teeth on Stock Knurls
					

Numbers of Teeth on Stock Knurls




					accu-trak.com


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## rwm (Mar 31, 2020)

I am trying to figure out how the number of teeth per wheel would vary from a straight to a diagonal knurl of the same TPI??? I think there is some witchcraft afoot.
Robert
EDIT:
Check this page out.




__





						Diametral Pitch Knurling and Conversions
					

Diametral Pitch Knurling and Conversions




					accu-trak.com
				



R


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## darkzero (Mar 31, 2020)

Check out this page, it may have some answers for you.





__





						General Knurling Information
					

General Knurling Information




					accu-trak.com
				






> *TEETH per INCH* or *TPI*. The TPI refers to the number of Teeth per (linear) Inch measured on the circumference of the work blank diameter. For straight knurl wheels the approximate TPI, may be measured on the outside diameter of the knurling for reference purposes. For diagonal knurl wheels, the
> ***TPI is measured perpendicular to the teeth or helix angle.  The circular pitch measurement in inches, is derived from 1 inch divided by the number of Teeth per Inch with the exception of 14, 21, and 33 TPI.
> 
> 
> ...


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## Jimsehr (Apr 1, 2020)

Not needed in a home shop . But lots of machinist don’t know shops that do thread rolling can also roll knurls. I used to do a job out of 316ss  1 1/2 dia 1000 pcs at a time and never lost any parts due to bad knurls. But I had to finish the Id after knurling because part bore would move from knurling .


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