# Who owns a Grizzly 4003 lathe from 1999 to 2005 ?



## Mutt (Nov 28, 2018)

Need a copy of the wiring diagram for the forward/reverse switch. Lost my book, Grizzly has had 3 totally different type switches since 1999.
I'm in the process of installing a good USA made rotary drum switch on my 4003. It's a1999 model I bought brand new.   Geez, I can't believe how cheaply made some of the components on this lathe are. Didn't their parents teach them that if something is worth doing, it's worth doing right.  ????


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## Superburban (Nov 28, 2018)

Have you tried E-mailing grizzly?  I know I have a couple different versions of their manual saved here somewhere, I'll look for them, and see if they have a date.


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## Mutt (Nov 29, 2018)

Grizzly doesn't save obsolete stuff, then they try to sell ya stuff that is "upgraded" from the newer model. But the stuff rarely fits with machine work to it. Hope ya can find teh diagram. My lathe is down until I get the wiring diagram to install a switch


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## jmanatee (Nov 29, 2018)

I think I have a 2000 G4003 ( I am not sure how to find exact year, I bought it used),  my manual doesn't have any wiring diagrams, but the online PDF does have detailed wiring diagrams.   I am not sure how much the wiring  has changed even if the switch did.


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## markba633csi (Nov 29, 2018)

Single cap or dual cap motor?  That's the main difference, and modern diagrams are available; I/we can walk you thru it
mark


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## Mutt (Nov 29, 2018)

jmanatee said:


> I think I have a 2000 G4003 ( I am not sure how to find exact year, I bought it used),  my manual doesn't have any wiring diagrams, but the online PDF does have detailed wiring diagrams.   I am not sure how much the wiring  has changed even if the switch did.





 Here is the page from Grizzly talking about the latest update.
https://cdn0.grizzly.com/manuals/g4003_m.pdf


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## Mutt (Nov 29, 2018)

markba633csi said:


> Single cap or dual cap motor?  That's the main difference, and modern diagrams are available; I/we can walk you thru it
> mark




It's a single cap on top of motor. The start is a set of centrifigal points on the motor end cover. I'm guessing the cap is for RUN only.  I will use this drum switch I recently bought

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Reversing-...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649


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## Mutt (Nov 29, 2018)

Mutt said:


> It's a single cap on top of motor. The start is a set of centrifigal points on the motor end cover. I'm guessing the cap is for RUN only.  I will use this drum switch I recently bought
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Reversing-Drum-Dayton-Switch-2X441-Single-Phase-Poly-Phase/153253775585?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649




Here are some pics of the tear down. Maybe one of you electricians can decipher this mess for me? Lathe is 220v 1 ph. 2hp

Here is where the cheap plastic switches are. This was the original start switch set up,
then they changed to a mini rotary switch, now to 2 limit switches



cheap plastic junk



wires removed from old switch
from bottom to top of pic
red      jumper
green/yellow        ground
red   #4
blue       #5
black      #6
brown    #7


new rotary switch


diagrams inside of cover




off


forward


reverse


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## Mutt (Nov 29, 2018)

on the revised set up, the wires are all the same colors, but 2 of the numbers have been swapped

original wires (As seen above pic)

red                     jumper
green/yellow     ground
red                      #4
blue                    #5
black                   #6
brown                 #7 

new wiring

red                      jumper
green/yellow      ground
red  is now          #7
blue                    #5
black  is now      #4
brown                #7 

perhaps these 2 wires make the switch reverse it's directions on the handle?


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## pdentrem (Nov 29, 2018)

Same switch as on our Jet BDB-1340A. The manual is available on line if interested.


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## markba633csi (Nov 29, 2018)

From the pictures you posted the red actually looks more like yellow, but anyhow:
I think brown + black is the power pair and blue + yellow (red) is the motor pair.  Or vise-versa.
I was going to post a possible hookup but it looks like it wouldn't have worked- I need to study the new manual a bit more
I shall return
Mark


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## Mutt (Nov 29, 2018)

markba633csi said:


> From the pictures you posted the red actually looks more like yellow, but anyhow:
> I think brown + black is the power pair and blue + yellow (red) is the motor pair.  Or vise-versa.
> I was going to post a possible hookup but it looks like it wouldn't have worked- I need to study the new manual a bit more
> I shall return
> Mark









Ok, so I hooked up my original wires like shown on this new  diagram using the colors, , (not by the numbers on my original wires)
Plugged the power back in and flipped the drum switch forward, nothing, Reverse nothing.  If I flip the drum switch in either direction and push the lathe ON button and hold it in,  the chuck turns. If I let off the ON button everything stops


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## markba633csi (Nov 29, 2018)

Yea I'm not surprised, that drawing above won't have any relation to your drum switch, it actually represents a pair of spdt microswitches


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## jmanatee (Nov 29, 2018)

Isn't the motor controlled by two 24v contactors, one for forward, one for reverse.   so isn't this forward reverse switch just a low voltage switch?


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## jmanatee (Nov 29, 2018)

I think the power button (not estop) should latch the third contactor.


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## Mutt (Nov 29, 2018)

markba633csi said:


> Yea I'm not surprised, that drawing above won't have any relation to your drum switch, it actually represents a pair of spdt microswitches





So I might have to get rid of the buttons on the "switch board" on the lathe's front, 
Left is KILL button, I'd need that, 
the next is ON , 
the next is Jog (which I never use any way) 
and last, the light that tells ya the machine is on. (which I also don't need)

What would be my next step?   I have seen this switch on all kinds of lathes, drill presses, mills, etc. I am sure it can be used on this . The micro  rotary drum switch, which Grizzly used (for an undetermined amount of time) is basically a mini version  of this Dayton drum switch


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## markba633csi (Nov 29, 2018)

It should be possible to use the drum switch in place of the old plastic switch, but the circuit is a bit convoluted- I'm sure one of us can figure it out but it might take a couple days, hang in there
mark
Mutt: can you take a super close up pic of the old switch and show how it was connected? That would be a big help


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## jmanatee (Nov 29, 2018)

Can you test for 24v AC on the black wire at the switch to ground (green and yellow)


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## Superburban (Nov 29, 2018)

I still have to dig out my old computer, but from what I see, you are trying to switch from one style switch, to another.

Going by Mutts diagram, the switches do the following:

Direction 1,____ 7 and 5 are connected.
Off,____________ 4 and 5 are connected.
Direction 2,_____4 and 6 are connected.

And of course the green is ground.

Maybe someone can decipher the right connections to get the drum switch to do the same things. When I get to the house, I'll check back in on here.


Is there more to this switch? where does the orange wire in the back go?


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## Mutt (Nov 29, 2018)

jmanatee said:


> Can you test for 24v AC on the black wire at the switch to ground (green and yellow)




 Kill button out  (the power will be ON) both thew black, and the brown wire, have 19v + AC. Kill button in (power OFF) black and brown both have 10v AC


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## Mutt (Nov 29, 2018)

Superburban said:


> I still have to dig out my old computer, but from what I see, you are trying to switch from one style switch, to another.
> 
> Going by Mutts diagram, the switches do the following:
> 
> ...





The square end of the shaft that used to turn the motor on and off, had a plastic cam pressed onto the end of it. When ya  raised or lowered the handle, it pushed the cam towards the switch, which would connect one set of contacts and the plastic cam would turn to  close one or the other sets of contacts


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## Mutt (Nov 29, 2018)

markba633csi said:


> It should be possible to use the drum switch in place of the old plastic switch, but the circuit is a bit convoluted- I'm sure one of us can figure it out but it might take a couple days, hang in there
> mark
> Mutt: can you take a super close up pic of the old switch and show how it was connected? That would be a big help





Unfortunately not. I didn't take a picture of the switch before I took the wires off today. That is one reason I was hoping someone had the owners manual from around 2000. It would show how those plastic switches were hooked up


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## pdentrem (Nov 29, 2018)

These are from the manual for the Jet we bought around 2000. It uses the identical switch.


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## jmanatee (Nov 29, 2018)

What happens if you touch (quickly ) black to orange or black to blue  One at a time?


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## Mutt (Nov 29, 2018)

I stand corrected on the caps. The data plate on the motor says " Dual Capacitor induction motor"  I remember about 5 or more years ago, I think one of the caps went out. It must not have been the run cap as I've been running it for that long since. If I remember right, I just removed the old cap, taped off the wires to it and left it at that. Guess I better find out what mf that lower cap is and get another while this  lathe is down


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## Mutt (Nov 29, 2018)

jmanatee said:


> What happens if you touch (quickly ) black to orange or black to blue  One at a time?





With the black and blue wires removed from the switch?or just a jumper wire?


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## jmanatee (Nov 29, 2018)

Just a quick touch of black to orange,    Listen for a contactor to close

Just a quick touch of black to blue,    Listen for a contactor to close


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## jmanatee (Nov 29, 2018)

I dont think it is going to work because I think you need the 3rd contactor to close 1st 

This is done by estop out which powers start button,  start button powers and latches on the 3rd contact.  this powers the forward revers switch

It might not be 24vac when 3rd contact closes it might be 110v   Man the diagrams are difficult to follow


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## Superburban (Nov 29, 2018)

Here is from the 2008 edition for the G4003G gunsmith lathe. I think this is the switch you have.

I also attached the Shop fox version of the lathe. Probably the same wiring, but you never know. I can't find the older version of the 4003, I'll keep looking. 

Have you checked with Grizzly, to see if the switch is still available? It may be cheesey, but it did last a good bit. Would be nice to have the saddle lever for stops, and starts.


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## Mutt (Nov 29, 2018)

jmanatee said:


> What happens if you touch (quickly ) black to orange or black to blue  One at a time?




I  jumped the red/black and the blue black  and nothing happened.  Then I tried the red black while holding the ON button. Nothing. Then the black blue holding the ON switch, nothing.

Then I turned the drum switch on to the  forward position, jumped red black and held in the ON button and the motor turned CW.

 If you hit the KILL button, then unlock the KILL button and flip the rotary switch in either direction nothing happens

If ya flip the rotary switch FORWARD and ya hold the ON button in, the motor will stay running until ya let go of the 
ON button. 

For a few times. I could flip the rotary switch in either direction  and it would actually come on and stay on until I moved the rotary lever back to off.  But when I kit the KILL button , I had to  start all over again with this process.

IT has a mind of it's own right now. Some times it will go FORWARD on Forward, some times it will go CCW on forward ???? I don't see any kind of electornics on here. just junctions and contactors


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## Mutt (Nov 29, 2018)

Superburban said:


> Here is from the 2008 edition for the G4003G gunsmith lathe. I think this is the switch you have.
> 
> I also attached the Shop fox version of the lathe. Probably the same wiring, but you never know. I can't find the older version of the 4003, I'll keep looking.
> 
> ...





That is Grizzlys version II. There own design drum switch (mine is a Dayton, made in USA drum switch,  steel and bakelite) Grizzly discontinued my original  switches, then they discontinued your chinese drum switch and now they have 2 limit switches. Nothing comes even close to interchanging. They will sell ya the stuff and you have to fab all the parts to make it work. Not worth my time. This switch is beginnning to show signs of "it's gonna work" !!!!


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## Mutt (Nov 29, 2018)

jmanatee said:


> Just a quick touch of black to orange,    Listen for a contactor to close
> 
> Just a quick touch of black to blue,    Listen for a contactor to close



 nothing,, nothing.


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## Mutt (Nov 29, 2018)

Ok y'all. Here's a short video

turn drum switch lever forward or reverse. Nothing

Turn drum switch forward and hold ON button, motor turns. 

Turn drum switch to reverse, hold ON button, motor turns. 

Kill the power, turn it back on, turn drum switch, you still have to hold the ON button in or nothing works.

are a couple of wires crossed?


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## jmanatee (Nov 29, 2018)

The left two contactors are direction one for forward and one for reverse, 

The right (or 3rd) contactor is suppose to latch and stay on when you hit power start until you hit estop or lose power or overload motor

The upper right item is an overload relay which will break (turn off) the 3rd contactor if the motor stalls, 

The upper left should be a transformer to step down voltages 110v (and possibly 24v but that might be the 4003g only)

The latched 3rd contactor should provide power to the forward and reverse switch allowing them to power the left two contactors.


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## jmanatee (Nov 29, 2018)

I think you are having to hold the power button because you are not latching the 3rd contact.

I think you should keep the 3rd contact inline because that gives you your motor overload protection.   It also ensures if you have a power failure and leave the forward reverse switch engaged, it will not restart until the power start button is pressed.


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## Mutt (Nov 29, 2018)

jmanatee said:


> I think you are having to hold the power button because you are not latching the 3rd contact





jmanatee said:


> I think you are having to hold the power button because you are not latching the 3rd contact




I'm good with that, what do I need to change?


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## jmanatee (Nov 29, 2018)

On other note the two left contact are wired through each other so if one is engaged (say reverse) and a call for forward (inching button or bad forward reverse switch) it wont allow the other to engage.


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## Mutt (Nov 29, 2018)

jmanatee said:


> The left two contactors are direction one for forward and one for reverse,
> 
> The right (or 3rd) contactor is suppose to latch and stay on when you hit power start until you hit estop or lose power or overload motor
> 
> ...




 Left facing open switch with handle on top?


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## jmanatee (Nov 29, 2018)

When you press power start do you hear the 3rd contactor close?

When you release the power start do you hear the 3rd contactor open?


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## pdentrem (Nov 29, 2018)

Inside the control box there are the two contactors, forward and reverse, and a third one to power everything. I took photos of the complete diagrams for the BDB and the GH versions. Maybe it will help locate the wire for the run switch.


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## Mutt (Nov 29, 2018)

jmanatee said:


> On other note the two left contact are wired through each other so if one is engaged (say reverse) and a call for forward (inching button or bad forward reverse switch) it wont allow the other to engage.



 Can't I just disconnect the JOG button all together?


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## jmanatee (Nov 29, 2018)

Mutt said:


> Left facing open switch with handle on top?



I am not talking about the contacts in your switch,  I am talking about contactors in the electrical compartment on the back of the lathe


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## Mutt (Nov 29, 2018)

jmanatee said:


> When you press power start do you hear the 3rd contactor close?
> 
> When you release the power start do you hear the 3rd contactor open?



no  no..  If you hold the on button down and turn the lever on the drum switch. You hear them and the motor turns


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## Mutt (Nov 29, 2018)

jmanatee said:


> I am not talking about the contacts in your switch,  I am talking about contactors in the electrical compartment on the back of the lathe


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## jmanatee (Nov 29, 2018)

Mutt said:


> Can't I just disconnect the JOG button all together?



Sure but that wont help you,  The jog button is a momentary switch that imitates the the forward switch


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## Mutt (Nov 29, 2018)

jmanatee said:


> Sure but that wont help you,  The jog button is a momentary switch that imitates the the forward switch




I see. So what do ya think needs to be switched?


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## jmanatee (Nov 29, 2018)

if you touch black to blue and push power start what happens?

Warning that maybe 110v ac


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## pdentrem (Nov 29, 2018)

The contractor on the top right with the yellow plunger is the one I believe you need to activate. BTW I gutted the box on mine and replaced with a VFD and a new 3 phase motor.


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## Mutt (Nov 29, 2018)

jmanatee said:


> if you touch black to blue and push power start what happens?
> 
> Warning that maybe 110v ac



Nothing happens.


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## jmanatee (Nov 29, 2018)

I think and I am only guessing by looking at manuals not for your year,

the 3rd contactor (with the yellow plunger) gets latched from the black  and  blue touching and you push the power start,

then with black and blue touching,   and 3rd relay latched you choose direction by touching black and blue to either brown or red

Hope this helps..

I have to call it  a night  I will check back on progress in the AM


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## Mutt (Nov 29, 2018)

pdentrem said:


> The contractor on the top right with the yellow plunger is the one I believe you need to activate. BTW I gutted the box on mine and replaced with a VFD and a new 3 phase motor.




What do I do to "activate " it ?


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## pdentrem (Nov 29, 2018)

I think that in the two wire diagrams I posted, that KA1 is that third contact.


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## jmanatee (Nov 29, 2018)

Do you have a continuity (ohms meter) tester?  Make sure you work with power off
Can you check which color wire (orange, blue, brown, black)

goes to 21NC on the left contactor
goes to 21NC on the right contactor
and which one goes to 34NO on the right contactor (yellow plunger)


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## pdentrem (Nov 29, 2018)

That contractor should only 4 wires. Two are going to the pull in coil and the other two are likely power in and out. Follow one of pull in coil wires back to a switch.


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## Mutt (Nov 29, 2018)

jmanatee said:


> Do you have a continuity (ohms meter) tester?  Make sure you work with power off
> Can you check which color wire (orange, blue, brown, black)
> 
> goes to 21NC on the left contactor
> ...




Yep, I will check that first thing in the morning and reply then


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## Mutt (Nov 30, 2018)

Ok, I got the time to start on the lathe again. Here are where all 4 wires hook, on the opposite end of the harness
green/yellow to main ground
black (arrow) wire  termintes on 21NC left side contacter
both the blue (arrow) and the brown (arrow) wire terminate on  bottom right hole on right contacter  Can't read the number on this contactor
red (arrow)  wire terminates on  bottom  terminal board 

The 5 wire harness that comes out the front of the lathe and goes to the drum switch comes straight back to the bottom of the electrical box and is circled in yellow (had to move the lathe out from the wall this morning to get this pic)


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## jmanatee (Nov 30, 2018)

Ok that's odd,   Which wire goes to the middle contactor?  21NC?


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## Mutt (Nov 30, 2018)

jmanatee said:


> Ok that's odd,   Which wire goes to the middle contactor?  21NC?




 Red wire  from NC21 (center contactor) to the BACK side of the top left contactor terminal


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## jmanatee (Nov 30, 2018)

In comments below, I am only talking about the left two (Red plunger) contactors and ignoring the right 3rd contactor (Yellow Plunger).

Both the two left contactors are wired through each other
So *Left *contactor un-energized 21NC connects to 22NC which should feed over to A2 (or A1) on the *right *contactor
So *right *contactor un-energized 21NC connects to 22NC which should feed over to A2 (or A1) on the *left *contactor

This is a protection so if you are in forward (say *left *contactor is energized) this opens the contact 21NC to 22NC on the *left *contactor  which breaks the ability for the *right *contactor to operate and vice versa.

You should have a traceable wire that feeds from each of the two left contactors out to your control switch.

Lets start by finding them


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## jmanatee (Nov 30, 2018)

All of the information I am providing it based on the current diagrams.  I am assuming they are the same for your vintage.
It appears the colors they are using are not the same.  

The third contactor (yellow plunger) is supposed to latch on  after you push the power start switch and stay on until you push estop or lose power, overload the motor.

Ignoring the green and yellow (earth) there are four wires  two should go to the two left contactors,   one should come from the power start switch and one should go to the 3rd contactor.

We should be able to narrow down the one from the power start switch  because you should get a voltage jump on one of the four wires when the power start switch is pushed.    

If that works, you can then determine which is the forward, reverse and 3rd contactor by holding the above found wire to each if the other 3 one by one and pushing power start,  One should operate forward, one reverse and one should latch the 3rd contact.

If all of the above works,  You should connect the first found power switch wire to the the 3rd contactor wire.   Now when you press power start the 3rd contact should latch on and stay on until estop.   Now you should be able to touch either the forward or reverse to the two connected and get forward and reverse.

Again this is what today diagrams show.

Hope this helps


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## Mutt (Nov 30, 2018)

jmanatee said:


> In comments below, I am only talking about the left two (Red plunger) contactors and ignoring the right 3rd contactor (Yellow Plunger).
> 
> Both the two left contactors are wired through each other
> So *Left *contactor un-energized 21NC connects to 22NC which should feed over to A2 (or A1) on the *right *contactor
> ...




control switch (drum switch?)
 Here is a picture of the electrical panel

Both contactors are identical
top left to right on each contactor are numbered as follows. 
L1 L2 L3 NC21
bottom of both contactors are marked 
T1, T2, T3 and NC22


 I finally found A2 (see don't see anything that is marked A1)
 U2 Z1 and Z2 all jump over to the same terminals on thht contactor
#7 red wire feeds all the way down to the lowest right part of the cabinet, what I would call a power strip


Red #6 also goes to power strip.



 I bought this lathe brand new in 1999. 
Today is the first time the inside of this electrical box has EVER seen a screwdriver


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## Mutt (Nov 30, 2018)

jmanatee said:


> All of the information I am providing it based on the current diagrams.  I am assuming they are the same for your vintage.
> It appears the colors they are using are not the same.
> 
> Ignoring the green and yellow (earth) there are four wires  two should go to the two left contactors,   one should come from the power start switch and one should go to the 3rd contactor.



2 wires to the left contactor or one wire to the left contactor and one wire to the middle contactor?


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## Mutt (Nov 30, 2018)

I traced the blue wire from this harness (goes to the drum switch). It comes from the drum switch harness into the bottom right of the ele. box as seen here, loops around and connects to the "power strip?) as seen by arrow
.
	

		
			
		

		
	



it has a black jumper wire also on that terminal which goes down into the motor


if you look across the terminal board from this blue wire, there is a red wire (black arrow)


if ya trace this red wire, it leaves this terminal strip and goes to this one


this also has a jumper, which final end is here, on the right (yellow plunger) contactor
 circled in blue


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## jmanatee (Dec 1, 2018)

Sorry for the delay,  movie night,

The blue should go through the overload relay and then over to the 3rd contactor that is the latching wire.   The overload relay will disconnect that if the motor is stalled

The number 7 and number 6 wires at the two contactors are the forward and reverse wires, find out what colors they change to at the terminal strip


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## Mutt (Dec 2, 2018)

jmanatee said:


> Sorry for the delay,  movie night,
> 
> The blue should go through the overload relay and then over to the 3rd contactor that is the latching wire.   The overload relay will disconnect that if the motor is stalled
> 
> The number 7 and number 6 wires at the two contactors are the forward and reverse wires, find out what colors they change to at the terminal strip



 #7 red wire on far left contactor  and #6 red wire on center contactor




These 2 wires terminate here on the power strip. 

Directly across the strip, #7 is the BROWN wire in the harness that leads directly 
to the  new drum switch. #6 is a black wire that goes straight down to the motor
.


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## jmanatee (Dec 3, 2018)

I am not sure what you have going on because it does not match current wiring diagram,...
but we should be able to figure this out.

At the forward reverse switch wiring,

Ignoring the green and yellow (earth)

We should be able to narrow down the one from the power start switch  because you should get a voltage jump on one of the four wires when the power start switch is pushed.    So with eStop switch on (out) and a voltmeter on AC connect to each of the four wires one at a time, and then momentarily put the power start.   One of the four wires should show a voltage jump (probably 110v),   

If none of them show a voltage jump we will stop here and look for other problems.

If that works, you can then determine which is the forward, reverse and 3rd contactor by holding the above found wire to each if the other 3 one by one and pushing power start,  One should operate forward, one reverse and one should latch the 3rd contact.

If all of the above works,  You should connect the first found power switch wire to the the 3rd contactor wire.   Now when you press power start the 3rd contact should latch on and stay on until estop.   Now you should be able to touch either the forward or reverse to the two connected and get forward and reverse. 

Let me know how this goes.


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## Mutt (Dec 3, 2018)

jmanatee said:


> I am not sure what you have going on because it does not match current wiring diagram,...
> but we should be able to figure this out.
> 
> At the forward reverse switch wiring,
> ...



The red lead of the AC volt meter to each of the 4 wires that run to the drum switch, the black lead of the meter to ground?


jmanatee said:


> I am not sure what you have going on because it does not match current wiring diagram,...
> but we should be able to figure this out.
> 
> At the forward reverse switch wiring,
> ...




Ok, so I checked that this evening. 
E stop switch out, drum switch in off position, 
black lead on AC volt meter  to ground on lathe
red lead to #7 brown wire 20v as is, 30 volts with power button pressed in
red lead to #6 black  wire 20v as is, 30 volts with power button pressed in
red lead to #5 blue wire 4v as is, 11 volts with power button pressed in
red lead to #4 orange wire 10v as is, 86 volts with power button pressed in


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## jmanatee (Dec 4, 2018)

ok orange must be the feed from the power start.   

If you connect 4 to 5 and push power start does the 3rd relay latch?
If you connect 4 to 6 and push power start does it operate forward or reverse (opposite of 4 to 7)?
If you connect 4 to 7 and push power start does it operate forward or reverse (opposite of 4 to 6)?

If the above works, on your drum switch,

You would want 4 to 5 to be connected only when drum switch is in off position
You would want 5 to 6 to be connected only when drum switch is in forward or reverse ( which ever direction you determine from above)
You would want 5 to 7 to be connected only when drum switch is in forward or reverse ( which ever direction you determine from above)

Hope this helps


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## Mutt (Dec 4, 2018)

jmanatee said:


> ok orange must be the feed from the power start.
> 
> If you connect 4 to 5 and push power start does the 3rd relay latch?
> If you connect 4 to 6 and push power start does it operate forward or reverse (opposite of 4 to 7)?
> ...


Are ya saying connect 4 to 5 with just a jumper wire for testing purposes? And this is done on the drum switch?


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## jmanatee (Dec 4, 2018)

Yes just for testing


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## Mutt (Dec 4, 2018)

jmanatee said:


> Yes just for testing


 I'll check this first thing when I get to the shop this morning and reply


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## Mutt (Dec 4, 2018)

Ok, jump 4-5 and push starter button with drum switch OFF. Nothing.
4-5 with drum switch in forward (or reverse position), 3rd (yellow) contactor does nothing, but there is a big GREEN spark coming out of the  right contactor unit as soon as the motor starts.. I checked all 8 terminal screws and made sure they were tight. Tried again. Same big green spark, motor still turns, but 3rd contactor doesn't move in 

Jump 4 and 6, drum switch on , motor starts and turns  which ever way it wants, no green spark , but yellow contactor doesn't move
Jump 4 and 7, same thing. Regardless if the drum switch is turned to forward or to reverse, the motor turns what ever direction the spindle last stops in and the slack is in that direction (if that makes sense.) Yellow contactor doesn't move


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## jmanatee (Dec 4, 2018)

I dont know how your drum switch is wired or how it works, to connect the wiring for now you should leave it out of the equation.  even disconnect it.

Have you changed any of the wiring at the contactors?    According to current manual diagrams this is straight forward. 

What caused you to think your original drum switch went bad?  What were the symptoms?  Is it possible the 3rd contactor was at fault all along?


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## Mutt (Dec 4, 2018)

jmanatee said:


> I dont know how your drum switch is wired or how it works, to connect the wiring for now you should leave it out of the equation.  even disconnect it.
> 
> Have you changed any of the wiring at the contactors?    According to current manual diagrams this is straight forward.
> 
> What caused you to think your original drum switch went bad?  What were the symptoms?  Is it possible the 3rd contactor was at fault all along?




NO one has ever been inside this electrical box til I did when I made  this post. Nothing has been altered since it was shipped to me brand new in 1999.. How is it possible to disconnet the drum switch all together and the lathe still power up?

The Grizzly page shown here, says wiring has been changed at the  starter switch as has the switch itself. Otherwise every thing is the same. See page here
https://cdn0.grizzly.com/manuals/g4003_m.pdf

There was no original drum switch. if you look back on the first page of this thread, you will see the other cheap clear plastic junk switches still in place

I have no idea if the 3rd (yellow) contactor is bad or not.

Here is a video.    




The last 3 seconds I am pushing the start button (camera went off of subject)
.
Regardless of what one does right now, you have to spin the chuck to start it. and it won't stay running unless the start button stays depressed.

The buzzing noise, (like when ya push in a contactor, )  happens as seen in the video and every time you push in a contactor and hold it, if ya spin the chuck by hand, the motor runs fine. The chuck will not start turning on it's own, period.  The 3rd contactor never goes in on it's own by moving the lever on the drum switch,etc

If ya turn the drum switch on, push in the start button and spin the chuck the motor runs fine.


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## jmanatee (Dec 4, 2018)

I think the original forward reverse switch uses micro switches to switch the contactors (Low current).  It did not have to be heavy duty.
Your new drum switch is designed to switch the motor directly (high current).

You have wired the new drum switch so I don't know what wires make contact when you switch it to forward, reverse or leave it off.  This could be causing a problem.   This is why I would like you to eliminate it from the equation.  I am trying to help you to understand how it was originally wired so that you can install this new switch.

What were the original symptoms before you touched the switch,  What made you think the original switch was bad?  Maybe a contactor went bad and you thought it was the switch.  

A motor that hums with power but but doesn't run until started by hand indicates a bad start capacitor.


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## Joe B (Dec 4, 2018)

My G4003 was purchased July 1998. The date on the Grizzly inspection report is hard to read but looks like 1991 (probibly '97). The 4003 is no marvel of fine workmanship but it has done all I asked of it and I have learned to wook to a couple of tenths when that level of tolerance is needed. I have had no electrical issues so I can't give any advice on the reversing switch.
Hope this diagram helps. Looks like there is already a lot of good feedback.


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## Mutt (Dec 4, 2018)

jmanatee said:


> I think the original forward reverse switch uses micro switches to switch the contactors (Low current).  It did not have to be heavy duty.
> Your new drum switch is designed to switch the motor directly (high current).
> 
> You have wired the new drum switch so I don't know what wires make contact when you switch it to forward, reverse or leave it off.  This could be causing a problem.   This is why I would like you to eliminate it from the equation.  I am trying to help you to understand how it was originally wired so that you can install this new switch.
> ...





The reason I messed with the original switch is, it quit working.

When I removed the switch housing cover, the switch was broken in pieces (clear thin plastic junk)  and because the switch was broken, it would not turn the machine on and off any more, so the switch needed to be replaced. 

Grizzly "updated" my 1999 switch sometime around 2008  to a "mini drum" and then changed that switch again in 2014 to a pair of limit switches. 

My switch has been obsoleted since 2008. the type II switch Grizzly went to in 2008 was obsoleted in 2014. They stopped selling type I switch in 2008, and stopped selling type II (mini drum) switch in 2014. I was left to my own resources if I want my lathe to work again. 

Can't afford a $3500 new lathe just because a company updates machines and kicks their old customers to the curb; instead of designing the new updated switch to fit exact where the earlier type was , without modifications

The start cap is new. 

Is there a way to test the 3 contactor units, or is it something that I have to  just spend $190 plus shipping on, get them in the mail, only to find out the contactors weren't bad to begin with?


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## Mutt (Dec 4, 2018)

Joe B said:


> My G4003 was purchased July 1998. The date on the Grizzly inspection report is hard to read but looks like 1991 (probibly '97). The 4003 is no marvel of fine workmanship but it has done all I asked of it and I have learned to wook to a couple of tenths when that level of tolerance is needed. I have had no electrical issues so I can't give any advice on the reversing switch.
> Hope this diagram helps. Looks like there is already a lot of good feedback.




 Thanks for posting that original wiring diagram.. Maybe someone can now figure out how I can hook up my new drum switch correctly. Much appreciated


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## jmanatee (Dec 4, 2018)

If you want to scrap the estop, power start, inching and all safeties. (I highly do not recommend this)

To wire the motor directly to switch ( Line power -> drum switch -> motor )

There are four wire that go to the motor U1, U2, Z1, Z2

U1 = Neutral
U2 = Line

Forward
Z1 = Line
Z2 = Neutral

Reverse
Z1 = Neutral
Z2 = Line

I may have above labels forward and reverse backwards if so swap Z1 and Z2


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## Mutt (Dec 4, 2018)

jmanatee said:


> If you want to scrap the estop, power start, inching and all safeties. (I highly do not recommend this)
> 
> To wire the motor directly to switch ( Line power -> drum switch -> motor )
> 
> ...





So what do I do with these numbers?  
These wires are what is connected to the  left side of the power strip in this pic? (disregard the back and yellow arrows, I just copy and pasted this pic from one of the ones earlier in the thread)
 I see bottom left if this pic, 2 fat yellow insulated wires followed to the right U1 U2 Z1 Z2 aand they cross the strip upward and have the same tags.  The jog button hasn't worked in quite a few years, so I don't care  if I ever have that . The power start button would just become the lever on the drum switch and the estop I can live without  (until I  end up buying a new lathe or at least a good American made lathe like a Monarch 10EE !!)


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## jmanatee (Dec 4, 2018)

Before you do anything I would test this,  Nothing else on your lathe has matched the current diagrams so I would definitely test

You would have to find the U1, U2, Z1, Z2 wires going to the motor, 
You would have to run wires appropriate to the load to your new drum switch
You would have to run power L, N and G to your new drum switch

I dont know your new drum switch so you would have to figure out the new switch using an ohm meter to get the appropriate combinations I mentioned above.


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## Mutt (Dec 4, 2018)

jmanatee said:


> Before you do anything I would test this,  Nothing else on your lathe has matched the current diagrams so I would definitely test
> 
> You would have to find the U1, U2, Z1, Z2 wires going to the motor,
> You would have to run wires appropriate to the load to your new drum switch
> ...





 The wiring diagram the fella posted earlier has to be for my lathe. No wires have been altered in location. I'm the only one that has ever had access to the lathe.

 In the picture above, the left gray plastic nut/ferrule with the wires coming thru it and going to the power strip are the only wires leading to the motor. 

 they are labeled  
PE = green/yellow  (ground)
U1  = black
U2  = brown
Z1  = black
Z2 = blue

They come from the service access box on the motor, in it's own plastic tube,  thru the left gray plastic ferrule and terminate here on this power strip

the 5 wires thru the center gray plastic ferrule is a single harness that goes straight to the estop/powerstart/jog/light user panel on front of lathe

the 5 wires from the right side gray plastic ferrule is the harness straight to the drum switch, 

All of these harnesses go straight to their end items, no harnesses split and go off to anything else. 
(you can unhook the 5 wires from the drum, then pull the entire harness right out the back of the lathe, same with the other 2 harnesses, just unhook them at one end and pull it thru. So I can "de-wire" all 3 components  and have 3 separate 5 wire harnesses laying on the floor in less than 3 minutes.

So knowing that 

the line in (220v) is the large black lead coming thru  the far left bottom of box (large white/black/green wires)

the left gray ferrule are all 5 motor wires, 

the center gray ferrule  has  5 wires (+ ground) leading to the front user panel, 

the right gray ferrule has all 5 wires to the drum  switch

how do I proceed to  eliminate  the user panel and it's harness from the lathe and hook the motor  direct to the drum switch?



Thanks,
Mutt


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## Mutt (Dec 4, 2018)

Joe B said:


> My G4003 was purchased July 1998. The date on the Grizzly inspection report is hard to read but looks like 1991 (probibly '97). The 4003 is no marvel of fine workmanship but it has done all I asked of it and I have learned to wook to a couple of tenths when that level of tolerance is needed. I have had no electrical issues so I can't give any advice on the reversing switch.
> Hope this diagram helps. Looks like there is already a lot of good feedback.




Does your diagram tell which cap is teh start and which is teh run? There is one on the top, and one on teh bottom of the motor when the motor is mounted.


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## jmanatee (Dec 5, 2018)

Not sure how I can help you anymore then I have with your new drum switch,  You would have to find a manual for the drum switch or use a ohm meter to figure out how to make the pattern I listed above (the old sketch and new manuals all show this pattern):

There are four wire that go to the motor U1, U2, Z1, Z2
U1 = Neutral
U2 = Line
Forward
Z1 = Line
Z2 = Neutral
Reverse
Z1 = Neutral
Z2 = Line 

One note,  In the current manuals they show Z2 getting capped off (not used) at the motor,  This would mean you can ignore Z2 above, In the older sketch it does not show the Z2 as capped.

As for the start capacitor, the current manuals shows the start capacitor as 150mfd 250v and the run as 20mfd 450v, if you pull the cover off, it should be printed on the capacitor


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## Mutt (Dec 5, 2018)

jmanatee said:


> Not sure how I can help you anymore then I have with your new drum switch,  You would have to find a manual for the drum switch or use a ohm meter to figure out how to make the pattern I listed above (the old sketch and new manuals all show this pattern):
> 
> There are four wire that go to the motor U1, U2, Z1, Z2
> U1 = Neutral
> ...






 I understand there are 4 wires that go to the motor. I posted pics of these wires coming from the motor to the power strip. Easily seen, but that doesn't tell me  how I can eliminate the user board on front of the  lathe and just wire the motor directly to the drum switch.  I should have taken a course in industrial wiring as soon as I finished 18 months of welding school after leaving the military
 I posted the wiring diagram that came with the new switch. It is glued to the inside of the cover. Look here


.


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## Mutt (Dec 5, 2018)

so I have 2 questions now, since I am on my own.
Is it humanly possible to "test" each contactor to see if they are bad?

Next, lets make  a "hypothetical" situation to solve.
Lets say ya have a wall that has 220v single phase power, then sitting on the ground under the 220v outlet  plug on that wall, there is a new drum switch and a  220v motor. You also have a roll of the correct gauge wire sitting there with it along with the necessary  hand tools and wire terminals and ya want to make this motor turn using the power from the wall

How would a qualified electrician make this happen? we know that 3 wires with a plug on one end (one white 110v, one black 110v and a green ground wire will be supplying the power.  That's Line IN.
We know that the motor has 5 wires  proceeding from it as follows
they are labeled 
PE = green/yellow (ground)
U1 = black
U2 = brown
Z1 = black
Z2 = blue 
We know that the drum switch has 6 terminals that wires and be connected to (plus a threaded hole for a ground wire.



 What wires need to be attached to where to make this motor turn?


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## pdentrem (Dec 5, 2018)

I doubt any of the contractors are bad as you found the switch was broken, just like we found ours to be as well. It is just an issue of find the right sequences for the wire to run the motor.

You can test the contactors easily enough without power. You will test the terminals that I can see identified as U1,Z1,Z2 on the output side. The matching terminals above will make contact to relay the power to those below. Use a ohm meter or multitester, one lead on one terminal and the other test lead on the matching lower one. Press the Red plastic in so that the contacts are closed and if the meter shows continuity then go to the next set until all three on each contractor are tested. As for the pull in coils, there are two wires to it and the coil should show a reading in any position.


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## Mutt (Dec 5, 2018)

pdentrem said:


> I doubt any of the contractors are bad as you found the switch was broken, just like we found ours to be as well. It is just an issue of find the right sequences for the wire to run the motor.
> 
> You can test the contactors easily enough without power. You will test the terminals that I can see identified as U1,Z1,Z2 on the output side. The matching terminals above will make contact to relay the power to those below. Use a ohm meter or multitester, one lead on one terminal and the other test lead on the matching lower one. Press the Red plastic in so that the contacts are closed and if the meter shows continuity then go to the next set until all three on each contractor are tested. As for the pull in coils, there are two wires to it and the coil should show a reading in any position.




 Ok, I tested the contactors for good measure , since it is pulled out from the wall.  
All green checked contactors have continuity when the plungers are fully depressed. 
 The 2 end contactors (with the red arrows, wires marked #7 and #6) have continuity and lose continuity when 
plunger is depressed. 

Ya say "As for the pull in coils, there are two wires to it and the coil should show a reading in any position." Which are these?


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## pdentrem (Dec 5, 2018)

If you go to the underside of the two motor contactors, I can see white wire with wire tag 0. There should another similar wires on the top side of the contactors. Check between the wire terminals that those wires connect. Usually the positions are called A1 and A2. The bottom one I can see are A2.


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## Mutt (Dec 16, 2018)

My special thanks to our Ulmadoc.  We talked it over and went with this. Works excellent, so the case is closed and the answer to the problem listed. Here is the diagram to  install a drum switch on a  1998 to 2008 Grizzly 4003 lathe.

Thanks again Mike for making this happen

Mutt


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