# 3 or 4 jaw chuck to start?



## Greggski (Oct 7, 2013)

Hello,

I am just starting out after a life long interest in metal machining and fabrication.  I recently purchased an EMCO maximat Super 11 off CL for a pretty fair deal.  It is in great shape, it just didn't come with alot of accssories.  It is set up to turn between centers, but I want to get a 3 or 4 jaw chuck as well.   Which one would you recommend to purchase first?  It seems that the 4 jaw would offer everything a 3 jaw would, although it would take a little longer to set-up.  I will be using this machine to learn basic skills, as well as make some parts for my auto mod/resto projects and little things around the house.  Below is a pic as it sits now - it has the backsplash as well but I removed it to move and clean.  Thanks for your help!


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## Ray C (Oct 7, 2013)

Very nice looking machine.  Congrats on your acquisition.

Hard question to answer about 3 or 4 jaw...  It's basically like the difference between learning to drive with an automatic or manual transmission car.

If you will be repairing existing parts, a 4 jaw would be preferred because they can be adjusted to perfectly center the part.  That's important when modifying existing parts.  If you're fabricating things from fresh stock, a 3 J will do fine.  Often times, a 3 J will not perfectly center the part but, it's not a problem if you take a fresh piece of stock and start cutting it because, after the first cut, the exposed stock spins true with respect to the way it was seated in the jaws.

Also, a 4 J can hold square things.  A 3 J can hold triangular shapes (provided the number of sides is a multiple of 3).  You can't hold triangular things in a 4 J nor can you hold square things in a 3 J.

Ray


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## strantor (Oct 7, 2013)

What ever you get, you'll probably wish you had gotten the other one. I think starting out with a 4 jaw is better, for the same reason I think starting out with a stick shift is better, learning experience.


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## Sandro (Oct 7, 2013)

Like Ray said it can be a tough question. If you only plan on doing basic turning, then a 3 jaw will likely suffice. A 4 jaw can hold on to pretty much anything, but, like you said, it takes longer to set up. So it comes down to what you intend to do, a 3 jaw is easier to learn with than a 4 jaw, but the 4 jaw is versatile. Take your pick to get started and purchase the other one after you have some experience.

Of course it you can afford it, buy both.

Hope this helps.

Sandro Di Filippo


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## Splat (Oct 7, 2013)

Because a 4-jaw can do anything a 3-jaw can, and more, I would ante up for the 4-jaw first. Learn how to use it and you'll be good to go. If you got the 3-jaw you _know _there'll soon be something you want to do that you would need the 4-jaw for.


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## DAN_IN_MN (Oct 7, 2013)

Get both.  I see you already have a nice tool post.


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## schor (Oct 7, 2013)

I used only a 4jaw for the first year on my lathe, (I did have collets though). It was a very good learning lesson on the 4jaw, I would recommend it to any newbie. I now have a 3jaw and use it mostly, but I am still glad I spent that time on the 4jaw.


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## Ray C (Oct 7, 2013)

Oh yes, as others mentioned, having one of each is ideal.  -Or you could end-up like me with three, 6" 3 jaws, one 8" 4 jaw, one 6" 4 jaw, one 5C collet chuck, two face plates and two specialized drive dogs.  Only one lathe but, it sure is nice to remove a chuck from the lathe (with the part still in it) so I can switch jobs easily...


Ray


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## itsme_Bernie (Oct 7, 2013)

strantor said:


> What ever you get, you'll probably wish you had gotten the other one. I think starting out with a 4 jaw is better, for the same reason I think starting out with a stick shift is better, learning experience.



+1

...  Plus, you'll have a three jaw soon enough anyway. More important to get a decent four jaw than three jaw if you have to choose, because the whole POINT of the four jaw is accurate position.  It will take you a LONG time to afford a three jaw with true "repeatability", so I say don't bother.  

If you ever have spare mula buy collets.

AWESOME looking machine too!


Bernie


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## Dave Smith (Oct 7, 2013)

one thing no one has mentioned yet is -4jaw chucks are usually a little cheaper than good 3 jaw chucks---I would put some ads in the wanted sections and ask for a pair of 3 and 4 jaw chucks--you may get both for a bargain price.---Dave


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## Greggski (Oct 8, 2013)

Thanks for all the help. I was leaning towards the 4 jaw, and the majority seem to confirm this. In have been looking at a bison 8" 4 jaw. Is bison a decent brand in line with the accuracy on the super 11?

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DAN_IN_MN said:


> Get both.  I see you already have a nice tool post.



Thanks. Didnt even know that it was anything special till it got the lathe home and looked up the Dorian quick change tool post. Was a nice bonus...


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## ScrapMetal (Oct 8, 2013)

Bison makes a good solid chuck.  You might want to look for a smaller one though.  An 8" can be a bit much for a 11" swing lathe, you'd probably be better off with a 6".

JMHO

-Ron


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## MCRIPPPer (Oct 8, 2013)

i find my 3 jaw stays on my lathe 95% of the time, because i usually want to just throw a piece of metal in there and make a part, and not mess around with getting it all centered up. i use my 4 jaw for larger things because it has more capacity than the same size 3 jaw, and things where i have to re chuck a finished piece that needs to be real round. i also use it to hold big odd shape things to bore holes because i dont have a boring head for my mill yet. honestly i think using a lathe with only a 4 jaw would be frustrating. you kinda need both if you want to stay sane, and make good parts in a reasonable amount of time. but it can be done with only a 4 jaw. the same can not be said for 3 jaw.


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## Tony Wells (Oct 8, 2013)

Just for fun, I'm going to suggest a 4 jaw, as large as you are comfortable with, and a smaller 3 jaw _that you can chuck in the 4-jaw_ if you want to run through a bunch of parts that don't need to be indicated to death, but within a couple of thousandths.


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## Ray C (Oct 8, 2013)

Well, if you really are in the market for a Bison, check out www.machinetoolonline.com.  They happen to be having a blow-out on Bison chucks with prices about 30% below any other dealer...  You'll need to call them about price because he doesn't list them.  BTW:  This dealer is very well established and has a very good reputation.


Ray




Greggski said:


> Thanks for all the help. I was leaning towards the 4 jaw, and the majority seem to confirm this. In have been looking at a bison 8" 4 jaw. Is bison a decent brand in line with the accuracy on the super 11?
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> ...


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## epanzella (Oct 8, 2013)

I guess I'm gonna hafta go across the grain and recommend a 3 jaw. I can't even imagine having a lathe without a 3 jaw as everything would take so long. I try to plan my turnings with one chucking so that after a truing cut the work is perfectly concentric. Yes, when I need my 4 jaw nothing else will do but you really need both and it'll probably be a while before you start doing projects needing a 4 jaw. Just make sure the 3 jaw has 2 piece jaws or 2 sets of jaws for inside/outside holding.
  Just  my $.02


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## Greggski (Oct 8, 2013)

Thanks again guys. I may look at getting both depending on price.  

Bison seems to be on the mid-high end of pricing for the chucks I've seen, are there any other good brands that you recommend for me to check out?


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## Ray C (Oct 8, 2013)

TMX is Bison's "Economy" series -also very good and also carried by the distributor mentioned earlier.




Greggski said:


> Thanks again guys. I may look at getting both depending on price.
> 
> Bison seems to be on the mid-high end of pricing for the chucks I've seen, are there any other good brands that you recommend for me to check out?


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## Splat (Oct 8, 2013)

Ray C said:


> TMX is Bison's "Economy" series -also very good and also carried by the distributor mentioned earlier.



+1 on TMX chucks. Also, check what Jeff has at http://www.tools4cheap.net.


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## Uncle Buck (Oct 8, 2013)

If you can only have one chuck to start with make it a 4 jaw chuck. Between the two types the 4 jaw is without a doubt the more important and versatile of the two types. That is not my opinion, it is a fact as I learned it. With that said, I have no particular fondness for 4 jaws and will quickly concede I like the ability of faster setup that 3 jaw chucks provide. The 4 jaw, unless you are a quick learner take longer to dial in as well. However, if you only have a 4 jaw and work with it often I am sure that more rapid setup could be learned through always having to correctly center the stock using an indicator. Generally I always use a three jaw unless a situation warrants my having to switch over to a 4 jaw which does happen from time to time. Of course since some time passes between the times I have to use my 4 jaw I am a bit slow having to adjust everything into center using an indicator. 

However, with all that said I have always read and heard from those more gifted in machining than me that given a choice of one over the other a 4 jaw is a must (also generally accepted as more accurate when that counts) and thus should be considered a absolute winner over a three jaw.

Even if you do buy a 4 jaw first, get a good 3 jaw as soon as your situation allows. They are the lazy mans friend.


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## gmcken (Oct 8, 2013)

I agree with most the you should get a 4 jaw chuck first.  Get a 4 jaw as large as will fit your lathe and learn how to set up to run true.  When you can afford  a three jaw, buy a quality chuck.  Cheap or poorly made tools will need to be replaced.  Just me 2 cents worth.


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## itsme_Bernie (Oct 8, 2013)

Note that there is a big difference in weight between 6 and 8 inch chucks.  As much as double the weight is possible depending on build.

Bernie


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## Greggski (Oct 8, 2013)

How are the South Bend Chucks?  There is this one at the Grizzly showroom just north of my house.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/8-4-Jaw-Ind-Chuck-D1-4/SB1225

Also, i have been looking for a D1-4, 6" 4 jaw chuck, but have only seen the 8".  Is a 6 inch not a typical size with this mount?


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## Ray C (Oct 8, 2013)

Check www.shars.com for the 6", 4J.  Ebay Too.  Don't forget to order a backplate.  Also, please keep in mind that any backplate you buy will be slighly oversized and will require custom fitting on both sides and the edges...


Ray




Greggski said:


> How are the South Bend Chucks? There is this one at the Grizzly showroom just north of my house.
> 
> http://www.grizzly.com/products/8-4-Jaw-Ind-Chuck-D1-4/SB1225
> 
> Also, i have been looking for a D1-4, 6" 4 jaw chuck, but have only seen the 8". Is a 6 inch not a typical size with this mount?



- - - Updated - - -

Check www.shars.com for the 6", 4J.  Ebay Too.  Don't forget to order a backplate.  Also, please keep in mind that any backplate you buy will be slighly oversized and will require custom fitting on both sides and the edges...


Ray




Greggski said:


> How are the South Bend Chucks? There is this one at the Grizzly showroom just north of my house.
> 
> http://www.grizzly.com/products/8-4-Jaw-Ind-Chuck-D1-4/SB1225
> 
> Also, i have been looking for a D1-4, 6" 4 jaw chuck, but have only seen the 8". Is a 6 inch not a typical size with this mount?


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## Tony Wells (Oct 8, 2013)

You'll do better if you find a direct mount. Won't lose any -Z- room, and no hassle about making the back plate true


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## Greggski (Oct 8, 2013)

No brake on the machine unfortunatley.

To resize the back plate, would I just mount it to the spindle using the camlocks and cut it as needed, or would I need to get a faceplate to mount it to?


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## Ray C (Oct 8, 2013)

Normally, a D1-4 backplate (which is what I assume you have but it could be a D1-3 -so better check) the taper part that mates with the spindle will be very tight (undersized) and may need the angled bore widened-up.  This is often the case.  Once that is addressed, yes, you mount the plate and surface the chuck-mating side.

It's also recommended that you make a static balance checker and mark the heavy side of the plate then, put a bar in the jaws of the chuck alone and find it's heavy side.  When you go to drill the holes through the plate, you mount the heavy sides opposite of each other and that way, the overall unit will likely spin with a more neutral balance.  Once they are mounted together, you check the overall balance and make divots in the backplate to make any further corrections.

Here is a thread that covers the entire procedure.  If you are new to using a lathe, this may seem a little daunting...

Here is a thread that describes the process:  http://www.hobby-machinist.com/show...Spindle-amp-Chuck-Measurement-and-Setup/page2



Ray



Greggski said:


> No brake on the machine unfortunatley.
> 
> To resize the back plate, would I just mount it to the spindle using the camlocks and cut it as needed, or would I need to get a faceplate to mount it to?


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## Sharky (Oct 8, 2013)

I'm going to post the dissenting opinion. I love 3 jaw as hex stock works in it, I can also slit a nut and use it to hold threaded rod and bolts to turn them.  I did have to "tune" it a little but is now running "close enough" for me


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## Greggski (Oct 8, 2013)

I have confirmed its a D1-4 backplate. Your right, it does seem a bit daunting.  I understand the concept, its just the jargon that is a bit hard to follow being a beginner.  I think if i could see it done, it would make it much more clear.  It will search for some videos and get it figured out.  I enjoy the learning curve with aquiring a new skill set and look forward to getting started.  

Thanks again for the help, i will update once i get this up and running...






Ray C said:


> Normally, a D1-4 backplate (which is what I assume you have but it could be a D1-3 -so better check) the taper part that mates with the spindle will be very tight (undersized) and may need the angled bore widened-up.  This is often the case.  Once that is addressed, yes, you mount the plate and surface the chuck-mating side.
> 
> It's also recommended that you make a static balance checker and mark the heavy side of the plate then, put a bar in the jaws of the chuck alone and find it's heavy side.  When you go to drill the holes through the plate, you mount the heavy sides opposite of each other and that way, the overall unit will likely spin with a more neutral balance.  Once they are mounted together, you check the overall balance and make divots in the backplate to make any further corrections.
> 
> ...


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## Ray C (Oct 8, 2013)

If you do indeed get a backplate that is under-size on the spindle side, you could send it to me and I'll fit it to my spindle which is textbook on-spec.  Of course, shipping fees would be a little annoying.  Best bet is to see if it fits and try to find someone locally who can take it to the right size.  If the plate face does not fully meet the spindle face when you tighten the lugs, this means the tapered hole in the plate is undersized and you'll stand no chance of getting a chuck to mount repeatably.


Ray




Greggski said:


> I have confirmed its a D1-4 backplate. Your right, it does seem a bit daunting.  I understand the concept, its just the jargon that is a bit hard to follow being a beginner.  I think if i could see it done, it would make it much more clear.  It will search for some videos and get it figured out.  I enjoy the learning curve with aquiring a new skill set and look forward to getting started.
> 
> Thanks again for the help, i will update once i get this up and running...


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## Greggski (Oct 9, 2013)

Thanks for the offer Ray.  After staying up too late last night researching this and going back through some books I am reading, I am pretty sure i can tackle this. I will take a look at the back plate when I get it and go from there.  I am sure I will be posting up a bunch more questions at that point.


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## itsme_Bernie (Oct 9, 2013)

Tony Wells said:


> Just for fun, I'm going to suggest a 4 jaw, as large as you are comfortable with, and a smaller 3 jaw _that you can chuck in the 4-jaw_ if you want to run through a bunch of parts that don't need to be indicated to death, but within a couple of thousandths.



WHOH cool idea- I wouldn't have thought of that!


Bernie


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