# What kind of accuracy can one expect from older Starrett tools?



## ZombiWelder (Oct 21, 2018)

Gentlemen! 
Modern Starrett equivalent of this guy
http://www.ebay.com/itm/253924666690
Cost 20x and guaranteed to .0005" , how do oldies compare? 
Best,
Arthur


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## mikey (Oct 21, 2018)

If the oldie is in good condition, not abused, and the contact edges are square then it will be just as accurate as a modern equivalent. Actually, my vernier calipers are old and have that fine adjust feature. It is more accurate than my more modern dial calipers. The only problem is that it requires magnification to read it accurately now that my eyes are older.


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## benmychree (Oct 21, 2018)

Accuracy would be fine, as mikey said, but I would hold out for the later model with a 50 division vernier rather than the 25 division, they are much easier to read, and have both inside and outside measurements on the same side of the instrument, plus, they have a center to center feather for setting dividers and trammel points.


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## Bob Korves (Oct 21, 2018)

The old Starrett tools were made at least as accurate as the new ones, perhaps better than some of their latest products.  Still, wear can take its toll, especially on tools that are not hardened, Starrett tools were usually properly hardened in the old days.


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## P. Waller (Oct 21, 2018)

Tools are only as accurate as you can verify, for this you will need gauge blocks.
Measure a stack then measure the part, if they measure the same you are within the gauge blocks accuracy range.

Gauge blocks are available in different grades, use a grade that your level of accuracy requires.
The closer the tolerance the higher the price.
Choose wisely.

https://westportcorp.com/collections/mitutoyo-square-gage-block-set-inch


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## T Bredehoft (Oct 21, 2018)

Back in the 1980's I purchased (yard sale) a boxed No. 122 36" Starret Vernier Caliper. (25 div vernier) The box had stamped on it, USAAF (Us Arrmy Air Force) dating it to during or before WWII. I took it to work, had it certified, (no problem, just difficutl reading the vernier) and used it until I retired, 15 years later. It passed certification every six months.


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## ch2co (Oct 21, 2018)

I love all of my Starrett tools, some of which go back decades before me i.e. ancient. 
They are all in top condition almost like new. The one in the picture looks to me to be sort of haggard especially when I blow the image up. I’m no expert, but I would steer clear of it. 
The jaws look to be somewhat worn and the scale is difficult to read. 
But that’s just this old mans oppinion.


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## MrWhoopee (Oct 21, 2018)

I used to swear by my 6" vernier calipers, they had a custom pocket on my apron and I used them all the time. Now I have trouble reading my dial calipers without glasses. Plan ahead, your vision won't always be 20/20.


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## RJSakowski (Oct 21, 2018)

I have the same model, picked up at a hamfest for $20.   Starrett is a well known brand and made quality metrology tools, especially when that one was made.  Aside from damage due to wear or misuse, there is little that can go wrong with one of these. 

The jaws should be parallel, as determined by closing the cleaned jaws and holding to the light.  You shouldn't see any light coming through the jaws.  Another way to check that were were taught in metrology training was to gently grab a gage block in the jaws and hold it with the jaws horizontal.  If the gage block rotates, the jaws aren't parallel and the tight spot is the point of rotation.

The vernier should be properly zeroed when the jaws are closed.  As to proper calibration with a set of gage blocks, I wouldn't worry about that.  I haven't seen a set of gage blocks that can calibrate the full range of a 24" caliper anyway.  People seem to forget that this is a hobby machinist site.  

To check calibration, I would use some 1-2-3 blocks, verified with a micrometer.  A stack of two will give you calibration points at one inch intervals up to six inches.  If you're good  at those points, you should be good the rest of the way.  Alternatively. you could mike a six inch parallel and measure that.

If you are in a production situation and require ISO9000 certification, you are most likely having a certified metrology lab do your calibration anyway.  Otherwise who's going to argue with you if you say a chunk of steel is 22.364" long?


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## mikey (Oct 21, 2018)

Accuracy aside, that fine adjust feature allows the caliper to square up on a part better than a thumb wheel does. When it is square on the part, you will know it. I suspect that is one reason why these old style calipers were so accurate. These things are no longer in vogue and go for stupid cheap prices. Wait for one in mint condition. I recommend a Mitutoyo or Helios as well.


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## Bob Korves (Oct 21, 2018)

I use my 24" calipers almost never, once every couple years.  Mine is a dial type, but vernier would be every bit as good for how often I use it.  My 6" calipers are used multiple times just about every day.  They are electronic, and I would have no other type for that length.  Still, you do want accuracy.  R.J.'s post is right on...


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## Boswell (Oct 21, 2018)

Bob Korves said:


> My 6" calipers are used multiple times just about every day


yep the 6" are definitely the one that gets used the most, like 99% of the time. The Mitutoyo Solar powered calipers are great because I never have to worry about the batteries and because they are electronic, I can move back and forth between Imperial and Metric with a button push.


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## BROCKWOOD (Oct 21, 2018)

I have the old no122 12" length. I love it, but don't use it much. Think I paid maybe $50 delivered. My go to is a 6" dial caliper. I also have an 8" digital that rarely gets used. I like the dial.


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## T Bredehoft (Oct 21, 2018)

Brockwood, either you have the long jaws or I have the short ones. On second thought, if yours is only 12 inches long....

I have 5 of the 6" HF $10 digital calipers, use them daily, scattered about the shop so I don't have to hunt. I also have a 10 in Federal vernier caliper.   I used the 24" when I built my pseudo-Gerstner box. For measuring among other things, the front panel. It has about .015 clearance.

Mine was priced at $25, but my employer had a policy of paying half the cost of our tools. They also gave me $230,000 upon retirement, accumulated  bonuses and interest.


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## BROCKWOOD (Oct 21, 2018)

[U]T Bredehoft[/U] the Op's find is on screen in the background of my pic. You are right, there is apparently a short & a long jaw version. This no122 seems to apply to several variations. I keep mechanical pencils in the office, music room, woodshed & machine shop & calipers in 3 of those places as well!


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## mikey (Oct 21, 2018)

Made me laugh - we are an old bunch that still uses mechanical pencils and vernier calipers, aren't we? Remember when our arms were enough to hold and read a book or when you could write your name in the snow? I remember climbing mountains and now I'm doing well just to climb the stairs to go take a nap. Time has passed but man, it's been an awesome ride!


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## BROCKWOOD (Oct 22, 2018)

Since you put it like that mikey .... I too had to laugh. We are productive regardless of the means though. So we plan for our trips up the stairs to maximize our efficiency & run everything we can on the rotary table before lifting up a heavy vise to finish those parts. Just working smarter right???


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## mikey (Oct 22, 2018)

That's what I keep telling myself, and anyone else who will listen ... I'm working smarter, not harder. I used to lift my Tru-Cut mower over the wall of my yard and put it in the back of my truck to go get it sharpened. Now I use a hydraulic lift table to do it and I say it's just to make it easier but the truth is that I can't risk injury anymore. It's sad but if I didn't laugh at myself for this sort of thing, I would be depressed!


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## Bob Korves (Oct 22, 2018)

We must be able to laugh at ourselves, out loud, looking at ourselves in the mirror, straight in the eyes.  We laugh for fun, laugh for success, laugh for making it through another day.  It is quite a ride, and the longer it gets, the more fascinating it gets.  Even the sad and disappointing bits.  Can't win a race any more, but also don't need to any more...


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## mikey (Oct 22, 2018)

The way I figure it, Bob, as long as we're on this side of the dirt, its all good!


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## Bob Korves (Oct 22, 2018)

mikey said:


> The way I figure it, Bob, as long as we're on this side of the dirt, its all good!


I am not afraid of leaving, just not in any big hurry...


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## mikey (Oct 22, 2018)

Gotta' tell you this story. My son calls and says, "Hey Dad, you want some 2mm lead? You know, the kind they used in mechanical pencils in the "olden days". I said, "Sure, I'll take them. I have a bunch of those pencils that I still use. You sure you guys don't need them?" He said, "Dad, NASA engineers do not do pencils and haven't since the 1960's." He then began to tell me all the ways in which modern men have left old guys like me in the dust. So I asked him, " Then why is it that whenever you need a custom part made for your car or bike, you come to me?" He said, "Because you do custom work for free!"

Damned kids have an answer for everything. I need to slap that boy!


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## C-Bag (Oct 22, 2018)

Funny how old tech makes us old guys feel dated. My only vernier is my Starrett 14" Master Bar height gage. When I realized I couldn't get by anymore without a height gage I started trolling eBay and was shocked to find high end vernier's were dirt cheap compared to digital and dial. At that time there were several vernier just sitting and the choice was how big and how many accessories were included. I ended up paying $120 + shipping (I think $30?) for the gage plus all the adapters and snugs. And thrown in as a freebie was a B&S BestTest DTI! Some of the accessories like the depth gage are are expensive as is the height gage if you were to buy it new. This was obviously used everyday but taken care of. What blows me away is no matter how many snugs and adapters I accumulate I still get stumped and don't have some odd size to do something.


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## Bob Korves (Oct 22, 2018)

I got my basic Starrett 454 12" vernier height gage with accessories for $30 on eBay, freight included.  It is in beautiful condition, and is all I need if I don't need to go taller than 12".


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## MrWhoopee (Oct 22, 2018)

mikey said:


> He said, "Because you do custom work for free!"
> 
> Damned kids have an answer for everything. I need to slap that boy!



No need to slap him, just charge him.


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## Bob Korves (Oct 22, 2018)

MrWhoopee said:


> No need to slap him, just charge him.


No need for money, favor for favor.  You do the machine work while the son works in the yard or garden (or whatever.)  "Sweat equity."


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## owl (Oct 22, 2018)

The inch wasn't standardized until 1933, Starrett goes back to the 1870s, so while the precision may be there, it is possible for very old tools to read differently than more modern ones.


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## Bob Korves (Oct 22, 2018)

owl said:


> The inch wasn't standardized until 1933, Starrett goes back to the 1870s, so while the precision may be there, it is possible for very old tools to read differently than more modern ones.


Yes.  Any used tool purchase needs to be vetted to see if it is correct, and corrected if it is not.  New ones should be, too, and are in industry.
Everybody has bad days.  
"Trust, but verify..."


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## Winegrower (Oct 22, 2018)

For the most part, what I do is mainly for me.   So if what I measure with is self consistent, it could be reading in Kopeks and still work out.    If you're going to switch back and forth among measuring techniques, or work to satisfy some outside requirement, then accuracy is more important.

I had a situation at the Railroad Museum the other day where we were trying to measure the fit of a piston in a cylinder using both outside and inside micrometers, both good quality.   Trouble was, there was a 0.003 difference in readings that fouled up the whole process.   Now that's annoying.

So I think "trust but verify" is a good point.


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## Toolmaker51 (Oct 22, 2018)

C-Bag said:


> Funny how old tech makes us old guys feel dated. My only vernier is my Starrett 14" Master Bar height gage. When I realized I couldn't get by anymore without a height gage I started trolling eBay and was shocked to find high end vernier's were dirt cheap compared to digital and dial. At that time there were several vernier just sitting and the choice was how big and how many accessories were included. I ended up paying $120 + shipping (I think $30?) for the gage plus all the adapters and snugs. And thrown in as a freebie was a B&S BestTest DTI! Some of the accessories like the depth gage are are expensive as is the height gage if you were to buy it new. This was obviously used everyday but taken care of. What blows me away is no matter how many snugs and adapters I accumulate I still get stumped and don't have some odd size to do something.


Trouble with tech and pricing of analog tools are related in an odd way. Those who appreciate form, fit and function gravitate to [or at least don't avoid] verniers, transfer tools, hand ground bits etc...With downfall of vocational training in education, what were basics have changed, so tools that took interpretation have weird names, look weird, and lack familiar controls. Auction sites attract all levels of craft skills, but population tells you the older ages compose a lesser percentage and possibly have a lot of tools. And some guy has a Starrett Master height gauge listed 12 months with no action. I have Starrett Master height and outside calipers collected over the years; admire the design, close to infallible, they make me money, and might be among best ever made. No batteries, no rack to collect chips, easy to verify zero. 
So, for all your gauge attachments, sort out which are similar, make a simple record of sizes and find out what you have that fits!


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## C-Bag (Oct 22, 2018)

LOL! If not for you TM51 I never even would have known what I had was something special! I do really appreciate the simplicity and bulletproof nature of the old tools, especially that height gage. It was interesting to note wherever the old gage was being used was where they had to be checked. The B&S BestTest has a last tested sticker but the height gage has a sticker that proclaimed it exempt. That's pretty bulletproof IMHO.


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## mcostello (Oct 23, 2018)

What is this thing called a mechanical pencil? Does it do the writing by itself? I only use the ones that use a wall mounted sharpener.


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## mikey (Oct 23, 2018)

mcostello said:


> What is this thing called a mechanical pencil? Does it do the writing by itself? I only use the ones that use a wall mounted sharpener.



From the days when Mechanical Drawing was taught in high school and when draftsmen actually drew plans and prints on paper. Now that I think of it, the good old days are, in some ways, not that good.


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## Boswell (Oct 23, 2018)

mikey said:


> From the days when Mechanical Drawing was taught in high school


Hold on, when I took drafting in highschool I used a piece of wood with graphite in the middle. I had a piece of wood with sandpaper on it to sharpen to the right type of point for what I was drawing. No mechanical pencil until I was out on my own.  Now even my mechanical lead holders are in a box for my son to ponder over one day. All serious drawing is now in AutoCad.


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## mikey (Oct 23, 2018)

Yeah, well, I don't think mechanical drawing is taught in school anymore. So many kids don't even know which way to turn a screw to tighten or loosen it, much less what a ratchet is or is for. Sad.


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## pontiac428 (Oct 23, 2018)

A height gauge isn't a calibration item.  It measures the distances between two points along a factory etched vernier scale that cannot change (at room temperature, at a given latitude, and only under an orange sun).  I bought a Helios height gauge this year, and am happy with it's elegant simplicity.


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## P. Waller (Oct 23, 2018)

RJSakowski said:


> The vernier should be properly zeroed when the jaws are closed.  As to proper calibration with a set of gage blocks, I wouldn't worry about that.  I haven't seen a set of gage blocks that can calibrate the full range of a 24" caliper anyway.  People seem to forget that this is a hobby machinist site.


A hobby site yes, however many members want tenths accuracy at all times, this is not hobby work and will require some standards such as gauge blocks.
There is no reason other then cost that you will not buy a 20" long gauge block and stack from there for a 24" caliper.

Have you never browsed the Metrology forum here? It is fascinating.


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## C-Bag (Oct 23, 2018)

I've been using the same Staedtler mars/80 pencil since highschool. Almost 50ys, wow. Not only is it bulletproof, the lead retracts so it doesn't break in the chest pocket of my shop apron. I also have an ancient cast iron rotary sharpener I don't long I've had. Both never let me down.


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## francist (Oct 23, 2018)

Seeing as how this has gone seriously off-topic already, this was my grandfather's mechanical pencil. Circa 1930.
He was not a draughtsman but rather an officer of a political party. There's still a bit of lead in it -- good Bohemian graphite 0.045" diameter -- although my grandfather died in the 1950's already.

-frank


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## RJSakowski (Oct 24, 2018)

P. Waller said:


> A hobby site yes, however many members want tenths accuracy at all times, this is not hobby work and will require some standards such as gauge blocks.
> There is no reason other then cost that you will not buy a 20" long gauge block and stack from there for a 24" caliper.
> 
> Have you never browsed the Metrology forum here? It is fascinating.


Cost is precisely the reason. 

There are a very few fortunate individuals who can say money is no object.  Spending nearly $1,000 on a 20" gage block to calibrate a 24" vernier caliper that is used once every couple of years is a poor use of funds, IMO.  I would much rather put that money towards something like a TIG welder or a surface grinder.  My wish list is nearly infinite.  In fact, if someone told me that they would give me a million dollars on the condition that I had to spend it all on my shop within 24 hours, I am confident that I could.

If I were really concerned about that caliper, I would send it to a metrology lab for certification.  I have that same caliper and the fact is that I'm not.  Every comparison that I have made with it against my micrometers have shown it to be reading right on.  Now I haven't compared to anything past 12" but I am confident that Starrett built their caliper correctly.

If you have browsed the metrology forum, you will have seen that I am a regular contributor.  I know of few members of this forum that work to tenths of thousandths unless it is fitting a bearing or similar.  In fact, common advice is unless you're working for NASA, don't sweat it.  One only has to look at some of the magnificent work by members of this forum to realize that is true.

BTW, if you are going to do a proper calibration, you better plan on buying a 10" gage block as well.


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## pstemari (Oct 25, 2018)

francist said:


> Seeing as how this has gone seriously off-topic already, this was my grandfather's mechanical pencil. Circa 1930. ...
> 
> View attachment 278319



Nice—Faber Castell? That flared end was intended as a pipe tamper.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## francist (Oct 26, 2018)

pstemari said:


> Nice—Faber Castell? That flared end was intended as a pipe tamper.



Interesting, I had no idea. He did smoke a pipe for a number of years though, so perhaps it did fulfil that purpose. As for the brand, I've looked all over it just now and there's nothing. No initial, not even a "Made in ...." . I'm quite sure though that it would be a European made product, that's where they were. Pre-war Sudetenland. I have a nice silver cigarette case of his as well, perhaps for another day.

Thanks for the interest, and the tip.

-frank


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## Toolmaker51 (Mar 20, 2019)

C-Bag said:


> _*"What blows me away is no matter how many snugs and adapters I accumulate I still get stumped and don't have some odd size to do something".*_


Over years and countries probably many hundreds of established tool companies...while Starrett, Brown & Sharpe, Lufkin and others competed, they also recognized good design and execution. So while they mimicked ideas, object size a proprietary element. So, a variety of brands necessitate variety of snugs, scriber clamps. Goes so far they generated what some call 'bastard threads'. Kind of. Manufactured assemblies need screws and  fittings, ad infinitum. Being full house captive shops they made their own taps and dies too. SAE, USS, BSS, DIN were decades away. When designer X had a slim indicator body, little screws were mandatory, he specified sufficient thread depth and selected a functional pitch [TPI]


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## C-Bag (Mar 20, 2019)

pontiac428 said:


> A height gauge isn't a calibration item.



Not trying to split hairs pontiac428, is it only vernier height gage that isn't? As there are dial and digital height gages too. I'll bet they need to be calibrated. But not sure.


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## pontiac428 (Mar 20, 2019)

C-Bag said:


> Not trying to split hairs pontiac428, is it only vernier height gage that isn't? As there are dial and digital height gages too. I'll bet they need to be calibrated. But not sure.



I'm probably the one splitting hairs, since I stewed my bones in ISO accreditations in the past and it altered my perceptions forever.  Others may disagree, depending on background.  I'm okay with either, but since you are inviting dialogue, I would say that this example is a zero verification, and not a calibration on a vernier instrument.  A dial instrument would have a zero verification and a range check, to ensure the response is accurate, but since you cannot change anything on a caliper or height gauge other than the zero point, it is not a true calibration.  A true calibration requires slope and intercept adjustability across a minimum of two points.  A zero is an intercept adjustment, and tuning the response across two points requires adjusting the slope.  No matter how many intervals you check in a caliper, you are never able to change slope, so an annual "calibration" on those instruments is correctly called a "calibration verification".  Lots of mincing terms, and often we know what one another means regardless, so it makes no difference in the real world.


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## C-Bag (Mar 20, 2019)

Thanks. Metrology IS a very deep subject and it seems it is all splitting hair after hair. But your explanation makes sense and I appreciate it.


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## Toolmaker51 (Mar 20, 2019)

mikey said:


> Yeah, well, I don't think mechanical drawing is taught in school anymore. So many kids don't even know which way to turn a screw to tighten or loosen it, much less what a ratchet is or is for. Sad.



A little story, true! 
I was young, but not really mechanics/ machinists in my family, though several good DIYer's. In 6th grade, a book report was assigned from a biography. We all went in school library. naturally bulk went to familiar names, Lincoln, Washington, Columbus, etc. An OK student, seems I rarely used someone _elses _idea of linear process. Found myself at the 'A' shelves Adams, Anson....nope, nah, heck no, then 'B'. Balzac, Bessemer....
Found Curt Gentry's _John M. Browning. _Read entire book right off, and wheels spun. Sure, firearm aspect interested me, but not like his ability to visualize, translated into functioning mechanisms. Not only inventor and tool grade machinist, but fully developed gunsmith educated by his father. No way I realized job of machinist was until that day. I do remember typical questions of kids "what do you want to be, when you grow up?". Didn't know before, and never fireman/ policeman/ doctor. Figuratively, next day asked that, a ready answer "Toolmaker!" Toolmaker, what's that?
Lol. 
Started with hand tools, most birthdays etc, gifts often included additional tools. Upon collecting stones and Swiss files I was gunsmithing triggers. I still think real gunsmiths might be ultimate toolmakers. If you don't know firearms, I'm certain that makes no sense. Look up Collath Drilling, history of Beretta family, Frank Pachmayr, Roy Weatherby, German immigrant gunsmiths of Pennsylvania...
Blew through middle school shop classes, dying for real vocational class work. Finally, High School! Met prerequisites by Drafting, drawing stuff we assembled in Auto Shop. That planted me in Machine Shop, doing operations that could make - what we bolted together- that we knew inside out by drawing - all hinged to things like tolerance, hardware, tooling, materials. 
By Junior year, two of us were selected for lab and lecture classes at the local college. 
Nothing boils me over like depredation of vocational education. So I do some mentoring. I recommend FIRST Robotics. Incredible program.
Recently a school teacher tried telling me, "kids need tech to succeed.". 
"Really?" Held my hand out, "gimme your phone". "Tell me Christine, how did this get into your hands?". [my favorite lure]
Same as a student "Bought it, local phone store!" [hooked, Lol]
"Hmmmph" "OK how did it get THERE?".
Puzzled look. [believe me, I've seen this a zillion times]
Right off 'tech' is horribly overused term. Just a lazy way to say 'I dunno how it's made'.
She gathers students and we spend an hour plus, talking about manufacturing, from poor little assemblers to micro level inspectors. A couple say they like "_How It's Made". _Well, that is a tiny fraction of what it takes to make it. 
The hour is ending, I ask "any questions?". "Do you think we've covered e-v-e-r-y aspect her phone in her hand now?". Pretty enthused response that HAS to be everything, doesn't it? Enthused, or just anxious to leave, lol.
"Nope, didn't somebody build the delivery truck? 

I'm adamant, a truly functional economy thrives on manufacturing. It's not really possible, finding the root of many products. There is a poster, text voices the paymaster, holding wads of cash, "Money going into your pay envelopes, to buy things you want; made by someone else, who needs our machines to make them. Etc."
After first 3 years US Navy, answered ad for a mold maker. Never a broom dude for any shop. New man, yes but never as apprentice. Worked tools in just about every facet of industry, used everywhere humans go.

Sorry. Not so little story, but true!


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## Toolmaker51 (Mar 20, 2019)

C-Bag said:


> Not trying to split hairs pontiac428, is it only vernier height gage that isn't? As there are dial and digital height gages too. I'll bet they need to be calibrated. But not sure.


Trend quite some time, at inspection, been to avoid interpretive measuring, for digital readouts. Calibration Exempt rarely means 'reliability assured'. These days; exempt is 'we don't know how', and 'customers coming in can't even read it'. 
But, everyone's all about quality. As if. 

Administration and piles of documents are marketing ploy of 'Assurance'. 
Companies are pressed to hire non-productive shufflers to maintain records, increased costs.
Quality at the surface plate [ie] Final Inspection is past tense, usually too late. Unless supplied wrong drawing, nobody has a honest method to bill rework as receivable. But accountants can formulate Toolmakers as overhead.


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## mikey (Mar 20, 2019)

Toolmaker51 said:


> Sorry. Not so little story, but true!



Fascinating story, TM, thanks for sharing. You seemed to have found your passion early in life and have clearly maintained it. Around here, you're preaching to the choir because we'll just about all agree with you.

I would raise one point, however, and that is that the world has changed. Nowadays, kids DO need tech to succeed. You do not need to know how a phone or computer is made in order to use it and modern kids in today's job market are at a disadvantage if they can't use them. How something is made is of no concern to many of them as long as it works. If you want to work for Google or Facebook or somewhere in the tech industry then you best know how to work with tech or you cannot compete. And you're right. A factory had to build those phones or computers but it took a geek with a computer to design the thing that had to be made by that factory so ...

I recently visited the NASA campus and met some amazing young people there. These are the ultimate tech geeks who not only fully utilize tech stuff but they also use it to build some of the most amazing devices - lunar and Mars rovers, etc. Their 3-D lab has a Bridgeport sitting right next to two 3-D printers. One of their engineers designed and built, BUILT, the miniature lithium batteries that go into a GPS tracker that is strapped to the back of an endangered bird to better understand their movements. I saw so many examples of amazing tech that they built that I can't remember them all. And it was mostly done by young tech heads with a passion for innovation that left me almost speechless.

The way I see it, manufacturing and tech go hand in hand. One builds what the other designs and innovates. Neither can do without the other, and the world is what it is because of this.


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## wrmiller (Mar 20, 2019)

I have a set of 3, older vernier Starrett mics that I use quite a bit. Most recently, I had to make a alignment spud that would hold a compensator on a threaded barrel until the red loctite had set.

One thou too small and the comp would be able to tilt such that a bullet could strike a septum on the way out, diminishing the accuracy at the very least, to blowing the comp off the pistol worst case.

For something like that I work to about a half thou, and my old(er) Starretts work just fine for that.


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## Toolmaker51 (Mar 21, 2019)

mikey said:


> Fascinating story, TM, thanks for sharing. You seemed to have found your passion early in life and have clearly maintained it. Around here, you're preaching to the choir because we'll just about all agree with you.
> 
> I would raise one point, however, and that is that the world has changed. Nowadays, kids DO need tech to succeed. You do not need to know how a phone or computer is made in order to use it and modern kids in today's job market are at a disadvantage if they can't use them. How something is made is of no concern to many of them as long as it works. If you want to work for Google or Facebook or somewhere in the tech industry then you best know how to work with tech or you cannot compete. And you're right. A factory had to build those phones or computers but it took a geek with a computer to design the thing that had to be made by that factory so ...
> 
> ...



Tech and manufacturing must depend on each other, not make one subjugate as demeaning, coarse or common. With say, Garmin as example, both those parties are incredibly successful. STEM education channels too many where they'll not be fulfilled, satisfied as employees.
It's not that they all need know how something is made. 
The economy isn't protected by endless developers, and they aren't all going to be hired into tech straight out. Hands on captivates a portion, generating durable goods; battalions of developers can't deliver product. 

That way, far more people are employed. I'd say world hasn't changed in reality.
What has happened though; a couple desks, PC's and printers in a rented office pass for an operative business.
Real business is capital investment, real estate, buying materials, shipping products, holding patents, inventory, subcontractors etc.
The income and dispersal of one is very short, the other entirely circular nigh impossible to detect how long it is.


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## mikey (Mar 21, 2019)

Toolmaker51 said:


> Real business is capital investment, real estate, buying materials, shipping products, holding patents, inventory, subcontractors etc.



Hmmm, Google is the #1 world ranked tech business worth $245 Billion and the vast majority of their product is information. Not everything is about material goods anymore and the world economy would totally collapse were it not for computers, the internet and tech companies. The world has changed from the one we grew up with and worked in and the reality is that we either keep up or get left behind.


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## Toolmaker51 (Mar 21, 2019)

So, tomorrow google goes under. Same day as GM.
Which auction are is going to get a bigger turnout?


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## mikey (Mar 21, 2019)

Probably GM, because the kind of money it would require to acquire Google's assets would be in the billions. Not too many common folk would be there.

Look, the top ten most valuable companies in the world are either tech companies, retailers or investment houses. It isn't until you get to #10, Exxon Mobile, that you find a company that is actually based in manufacturing. The #1 most valuable company in the world is Apple and their products are made in China, with some components made in other countries. This is now a global economy and the old model of doing business has changed. I'm not saying that the skills and equipment required for manufacturing are not important. I am saying that real businesses today do not look like the businesses of yesterday, and that is the reality.


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## TakeDeadAim (Mar 21, 2019)

francist said:


> Seeing as how this has gone seriously off-topic already, this was my grandfather's mechanical pencil. Circa 1930.
> He was not a draughtsman but rather an officer of a political party. There's still a bit of lead in it -- good Bohemian graphite 0.045" diameter -- although my grandfather died in the 1950's already.
> 
> -frank
> ...


That is one beautiful pencil,  I'm and engraver and its just cool.  Both my grandfather and father always had two mechanical pencils and a pad of paper in their pocket.  I am proud to say it is a habit I have picked up.  Yep, I learned to draw on paper and pencil.  Orthographic projection views and all, hand lettering and arrowheads.  I have and use Fusion 360 but to be honest for small jobs I break out my portable drafting board and Rotring pencils and whip out a drawing I can hang on a clip at the machine and go to work.  Does this mean I'm old?


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## francist (Mar 21, 2019)

Thanks, and yes I like it too although it's not something I carry around with me.
Yeah I still draw on paper with pencil but I have to say I love my AutoCAD as well. Maybe it's not so much about being old, but rather being blessed to have been able to experience both worlds. Not everyone will be able to say that.

-frank


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## TakeDeadAim (Mar 21, 2019)

francist said:


> Thanks, and yes I like it too although it's not something I carry around with me.
> Yeah I still draw on paper with pencil but I have to say I love my AutoCAD as well. Maybe it's not so much about being old, but rather being blessed to have been able to experience both worlds. Not everyone will be able to say that.
> 
> -frank


Agreed,   I sure like the technology of being able to see my parts interact in 3d and the ease with which you can change things in CAD.  I also just like the feel of pencil on paper.  Best of both worlds, well said


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## mikey (Mar 21, 2019)

francist said:


> Not everyone will be able to say that.



I envy you guys. I truly wish I didn't suck at CAD but I do. I'm stuck with pencil and paper, hence my envy. I do, however, have the Parking Lot gene and my luck at finding a spot right in front of where I want to go is unnatural. Balances things nicely!


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## TakeDeadAim (Mar 21, 2019)

mikey said:


> I envy you guys. I truly wish I didn't suck at CAD but I do. I'm stuck with pencil and paper, hence my envy. I do, however, have the Parking Lot gene and my luck at finding a spot right in front of where I want to go is unnatural. Balances things nicely!


I taught myself CAD and Im not all that good at it.  If you use Fusion 360 (which is free for guys like us) there a a bunch of tutorials on YouTube that I used.  The series from Titans of CNC is pretty good and gives you a regular drawing to work from.  It just takes some time but if you stick with it a bit you will do OK.  Like I said I still go with paper and pencil for simple stuff so if that works for you what the heck


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## pontiac428 (Mar 21, 2019)

I'm like TakeDeadAim, I taught myself SolidWorks about 15 years ago, and have tried to stay current.  It's what I use for complex projects.  Most of the time, it's pencil and paper that gets me through my bench projects.  

I first took drafting in the 7th grade, and took mechanical drawing in college (T-square and angles still).  It's faster in a lot of ways, but the time savings breaks even with CAD as complexity goes up.  Technical drawing is going to be a lost art someday; probably sooner than later.  I'm probably too young to be lamenting, but then again I'm the one running around the office wearing Red Kap industrial shirts with a drafting pencil in my pocket.


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## mikey (Mar 21, 2019)

Thanks for the encouragement, guys, but as my son is fond of telling me, "Suck Is Suck!" I'll look into Fusion 360 but I'm afraid it will be just another in a long line of CAD programs I've tried. I'm convinced the ability to adapt to CAD is a genetic thing, or at least that's my excuse, and no amount of effort or bludgeoning has made it intuitive or easy for me. I watch John Saunders of NYC CNC work his magic and I am so amazed at how effortless it is for him. Then again, I can stick a needle in your neck and use a wire to guide a catheter through your heart and into your lung so I can monitor the pressures of your heart so I'm not totally stupid. I bet John can't do that!


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## Toolmaker51 (Mar 21, 2019)

Boswell said:


> <snip>
> . . .  All serious drawing is now in AutoCad.



Ponderous bulk of drawings _are _CAD,  via software of numerable vendors. Having read drawings just under 60 years however, I'm not convinced 'serious' is a facet. 
The disappointment lies where certain readability features became ignored, wholesale. At the very peak, proper attention to line weight; where precedence maintained distinct observable widths for each type of line.


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## uncle harry (Mar 22, 2019)

pontiac428 said:


> A height gauge isn't a calibration item.  It measures the distances between two points along a factory etched vernier scale that cannot change (at room temperature, at a given latitude, and only under an orange sun).  I bought a Helios height gauge this year, and am happy with it's elegant simplicity.



Would that be an ISO orange sun?


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## uncle harry (Mar 22, 2019)

Toolmaker51 said:


> Ponderous bulk of drawings _are _CAD,  via software of numerable vendors. Having read drawings just under 60 years however, I'm not convinced 'serious' is a facet.
> The disappointment lies where certain readability features became ignored, wholesale. At the very peak, proper attention to line weight; where precedence maintained distinct observable widths for each type of line.



I remember when good drafting was as much of an art as it was a science. I've only inked a few drawings in my working days but it was common practice many decades ago.  And then there was cloth !!


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## Toolmaker51 (Mar 22, 2019)

uncle harry said:


> I remember when good drafting was as much of an art as it was a science. I've only inked a few drawings in my working days but it was common practice many decades ago.  And then there was cloth !!



Like too many elements of manufacturing, all kinds of logical measures were streamlined, made secondary, or just plain non-existent.  
If I'm asked for 'good' parts off poor quality drawings, I ask how they'll know the difference. 
"But this is CAD!"
CAD's not exactly the problem, it's a doofus  who drags the mouse. 
"Huh?"
These datum's don't agree, supposed to be just one. Here, why those features dual dimensioned? This should be a reference. Who draws right to left; primarily we work left to right . . .
"Nobody else complains"
Of course not, they don't know what they're doing either.
Their part gets made, after I redline the print. Usually I wring an engineering or consult fee on top of the parts.

Again, in response to "This is CAD!"
Eiffel Tower didn't. Douglas B-17's didn't or Consolidated Constellation. Hoover Dam, Mayan and Egyptian pyramids didn't. Not one shred of the immense Colt Firearm plant did, nor Apollo capsules, Saturn booster, M1 Garand, Lincoln Memorial, that Pacemaker lathe, this DeVlieg . . .


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