# The current state of machining education



## hdskip (Sep 19, 2014)

I posted this on another forum earlier today. I'm not sure this is the right place but here goes anyway. I'll not be offended if it is moved to a better spot.



     First let me say that I'm a high school precision machining Instructor.  I've been teaching for 20 years. I worked in industry for 24 years  before that. Several things : Vocational education is dead, It's now  career and technical education( A rose by any other name is still a  rose). Much of this career education is now directed at the Community  College level. That's where all the $$$$$$ is going.( college  education). High school machining in Virginia has dwindled to about 12  programs state wide. Almost all of these programs seem to be pretty  successful. By successful I mean EMPLOYMENT. My program has about a 90%  placement rate. We are in a county which has a large number of  manufacturing companies, both large and small. We can't recruit enough  students to supply the demand. Sadly most parents want their kids to be  doctors, lawyers and Indian chiefs. The technical education programs  have taken it on the chin for many years. There seems to be a resurgence  but when it all shakes out, it will have a different look than we are  used to seeing. Most technical schools can use all the volunteer help  they can get. This includes donation of excess supplies from individuals  and industry as well as time from those with machining experience. I  don't know of an instructor that would turn down a visit from a  machinist to at least talk to his students about what happens in a real  work place. 
    The apprenticeship program is alive and well in my state. It's been effective since ancient history. The educators of this country think you can learn everything in school. Nothing could be further from the truth. No machining instructor will ever claim to turn out a machinist. That distinction only comes from on the job experience over many thousands of hours (7000 in my state). I have my students for 720 hours. They are very much above off the street help but by no means machinists. 
        OK, my rant is over thanks for listening. I appreciate it.
      Gary    ( Educating the youth of America )


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## chips&more (Sep 19, 2014)

Back in the day when I could write my name in the snow. And when Middle schools were called Jr. High Schools. And when Jr. and high schools had metal and wood shops (they don’t now in my state, to my knowledge). I made the below cannon on my first year out of grammar school. I can still remember all the great machines that Jr. High School had. We even did sand cast and poured aluminum, can you believe it! In looking back, I suppose there was a huge safety risk for kids at that age running the machines and all. But at the High School age maybe the kids had a little more savvy. Why did the shops all go away in our State? I have no idea, I think it’s a mistake. Everybody wants to be White Collar and buy import crap. I through ranting too.


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## drs23 (Sep 19, 2014)

Gary,

This POV has been espoused time and again. We're going to be in a bad place when the time comes that we NEED those skilled craftsmen. I've got a friend that's been a Class A (and I don't know how many A's to put behind it) for 40+ years. I've been dabbling at running a lathe for a little over a year and a vertical mill for about half that time. He assures me I can walk into the shop he works in and go to work for 1/2 scale, day one. That's pathetic because I dun't know squat. I can usually make a part come out on size and sometimes it's even pretty but I'm by no means a "Machinist". Far from it. The guys here just amaze me. It takes me way too long. I tell him that I wouldn't make 'til dinner time the first day and he assures me the guys that the shop owner has to choose from that I'd be up the scale in "no time". That's bad.

I hope we never really find out what the cost of "off shoring" everything is going to be but my common sense tells me, it's coming. 

I feel sorry for our kids and grand kids.

Sorry for the rant, just an exposed nerve I reckon.


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## Andre (Sep 19, 2014)

chips&more said:


> Back in the day when I could write my name in the snow. And when Middle schools were called Jr. High Schools. And when Jr. and high schools had metal and wood shops (they don’t now in my state, to my knowledge). I made the below cannon on my first year out of grammar school. I can still remember all the great machines that Jr. High School had. We even did sand cast and poured aluminum, can you believe it! In looking back, I suppose there was a huge safety risk for kids at that age running the machines and all. But at the High School age maybe the kids had a little more savvy. Why did the shops all go away in our State? I have no idea, I think it’s a mistake. Everybody wants to be White Collar and buy import crap. I through ranting too.
> 
> View attachment 84052



You built CANNONS in school? Come to New York buddy!


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## Andre (Sep 19, 2014)

Hdskip, I have a question for you,

Since you have been doing this officially for so long, I think you'd be the guy to ask. Could somebody (me in this case) become proficient enough to get a good job and career by watching youtube videos, reading forums, and trial and error making my own projects? People like Oxtool, Mrpete, Keith Fenner, and a plethora of others share countless amount of information, tips, tricks, and show themselves making projects, some of which are fairly involved. Or would it be better to go to an actual machining trade school?


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## chuckorlando (Sep 19, 2014)

I wish I could say the same thing for our state. I can say from my own experience our machine schooling sucks. Our machine prog was missing a teacher for a year. Leaving students all messed up. Then we got a great teacher for a year, part time. Now he is gone. No teacher to speak of now. So I began looking for a place willing to apprentice or train or what ever they want to call it. Everyone wants 5+yrs experience or some type of cert from school. So I started looking in all the surrounding counties. I got two thats 3hr drive and one thats 1hr. So I contact them. It's an apprenticeship deal. Great! Sign up, get a list of comps to call to get a job. Half did not even know what I was talking about and all but one from the other half had nothing. The other one took another guy over me cause it's such a long drive for me :nuts: Needless to say, I am extremely frustrated with the industry and the education system. I was willing to throw my business of 10yrs away for much less pay just for a Journeyman title and I cant find a place to even let me pay to learn.

This makes me mad as hell just typing it


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## pineyfolks (Sep 19, 2014)

Andre said:


> You built CANNONS in school? Come to New York buddy!



When I was in school we could take our shotgun with us to go hunting after school all we did was get permission the day before and drop it off in the office in the morning and pick it up for the bus ride to our friends house after school.  Needless to say if you did something wrong you had to answer to your DAD.


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## 12bolts (Sep 19, 2014)

Andre,
The quality that you produce now puts you in a class above most others. However, any prospective employer will want/need to see formal educational qualifications. I am not familiar with the US side of entering an apprenticeship and coming out the other side as a tradesman, but here in Australia you would be required to complete year 10 (bare minimum) employers would look more favorably on year 11 or 12 high school, then a 4 year apprenticeship. Unfortunately although you certainly have the ability, you dont have the experience for an employer to trust. I have no doubt you could make it on your own in your own shop but without a rich uncle that aint gonna happen.
By all means watch and learn as much as you can online but if the opportunity presents itself for hands on for you to prove yourself to someone else, then grab it!
My situation, I hated school and all I wanted to do was get out and work with my hands. I was lucky, I grew up in an industrial area and apprenticeships were there for the asking, (35 years ago when the government and industry were still looking to the future) but now with jobs at a premium.......If you dont like school and want to get out then perhaps a local machine shop may be an option for you, But be prepared to start at the bottom. Rock bottom! Sweeping up and cleaning. If you are keen then the boss will give you an opportunity to show him what you can do and if he's a stand up guy then he will offer you an apprenticeship. Military service might be an option. The Australian Defence Force offers apprenticeships.

Cheers Phil


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## JimDawson (Sep 19, 2014)

As I see it, most of the employers today are looking for button pushers, not machinists, at least around here.  About all the vocational machine tech courses teach in this area is CNC operation. Boeing and other aerospace shops are the norm.  There are a few places that still hire tool & die makers to support their production, but most of them are 50+ years old, and there are no replacements coming up through the ranks.  The manager of the shop that I bought my surface grinder from told me that he was the only person there that even knew how to run it, and they had about 50 workers there.  They were all button pushers.  About the only shops the hire manual machinists are the various repair shops, and most of the guys there are older also.


I did a job at a machinery manufacturer in Tennessee, they had some amazing CNC equipment and the operators did their own setups and program editing so I will call them machinists.  But, to do the work that did not lend it’s self to CNC work, they had to bring in a 70 year old machinist to do the work because nobody else there knew how to do it.  He and I got along great.


Much like Andre, I was a natural at machining.  When I started out, I could walk up to a machine and just know how to run it and could turn out acceptable parts.  Some of us are just wired that way, but most have to be trained in both school and on the job.  The key here is wanting to be trained, and that is where the system is breaking down.  The young folks are being told that the only way to get ahead today is to get a university degree rather than being encouraged to even consider the trades.  We can’t all be white collar workers.


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## middle.road (Sep 19, 2014)

chuckorlando said:


> I wish I could say the same thing for our state...........



Unfortunately I don't believe that FLA is going to have much going machining wise since the cut backs with NASA. 
You'd probably have to bite it and move to a state that would have more manufacturing. _*Easier said than done.
*_
I started in the Chicago suburbs 40 years ago, then down to TX, then out to CA and then back to IL and 
have been in TN for the past 14 years. I never made it into the heart of the 'Rust Belt' though.
Been in heavy industrial, automotive suppliers, electronics, R&D and defense during the reagan boom.
I've seen a lot of shops both large and small and in the current climate I don't really see how we're going to maintain
our industrial edge. 
When was the last time anyone here heard the title 'Tool & Die Maker'? or any reference to that level of skill?
Anyone remember the classing system or labeling of Machinist?
The man who hired me and taught me Tool Engineering all those years ago thought that it would always be a skill
that would be in demand. He was concerned then that a lot of the apprenticeship programs had disappeared and wanted
to pass on what he and his Tool & Die Makers knew. Tool Engineering faded away also...


_Dan


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## hdskip (Sep 19, 2014)

Andre,
  I've been thinking about how to respond to your post. Been doing this for several hours in fact. I'll give my opinion and be honest with you. In my area, employers that hire my students are looking for several things:Someone who will show up every day on time, stay off the cell phone, and is trustworthy. Then we talk about skills: Being able to use and read precision measuring tools, read and interpret blueprints and engineering drawings, knowledge of Cad systems is a plus, be capable of doing shop math up to trigonometry. The prospective employee should be able to setup and run simple jobs on the milling machine and lathe (all of mine can work to at least +/-.005.). This is a list of desirable skills. Most independent shops, regardless of size realize that they will have to train most of their employees. 
  This is what they accept. What all of them really want is a person 26 years old with 30 years shop experience and will work for $12 and hour. I say that tongue in cheek but there is some truth to it.
   To put it in perspective the difference between  $12/hr and $22/hr is the amount of supervision time required for that person.
   I tell my students that they should consider the 4 year apprentice program as their college time. The difference is that they will be payed for their work, will have no student loans and most employers will pay for any work related classes they take.
   The hardest thing for today's generation to realize is that you can't start at the top or even the middle. There are manufacturing jobs that pay decent money but they are basically operator jobs. Start at an elevated pay rate and except for cost of living raises that's almost all they will see.
   The future is very bright for manufacturing jobs but many of them will not be what us old timers will recognize.
   I need to say something but I don't want anyone to take offense at this statement. I have a home shop and I've worked in manufacturing as a professional for 25 years before teaching. The two places are vastly different. Working in a home shop is very much like working in a prototype shop or a research and development shop. Not very regimented, usually not a strict time limit, and FUBARs are part of the landscape. Real life manufacturing is very much the opposite. Most manufacturing jobs are high pressure and high stress. I've worked in both and still machining is my passion. I teach it every day and do it for a hobby as well. It's been a great career for me.
   If it's what you really want to do , I say go for it. If you want to locate to my area I'll use my network to help you find employment. I hope this has been helpful. I also hope I don't sound like an ancient know it all. Best of luck to you.
    Gary


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## tweinke (Sep 19, 2014)

It's not just this field that has issues, in my chosen career there are very few new kids that have the training from vocational schools or other schools that can actually do the work. Some can pick up the simple skills needed but ones that can really excel are few and far between. The ones that seem like they will succeed get smart real quick and leave. Usually for a different career path. I personally hold the highest certifications that I can achieve and truly like to repair things. But after years of getting time paid for the work I do cut, the lack of respect from the general public and my employer and the company they sell product for I can not bring my self to recommend my career to any one. Who wants to buy almost all your own tools to do your job, get the training needed pretty much on your own dime, see an ever decreasing paycheck, receive snide remarks from customers about how much you just cost them to fix there broken product. I am starting to have the attitude that " I did not build it, I sure as h*** didn't buy it, I didn't break it, So do not beat me up because YOU bought it to me to be fixed. If only people knew of the labor charged I would be lucky to see 20% if nobody can find a way to lower that. After almost thirty years I guess my opinion is clouded but since about 2005 I see this career path was a very poor choice. Guess what I do to make a living, that's right I am a auto technician. It seems there is no value in people that can actually work with there hands any more all careers included. What will happen when no one can fix or build whatever in this country? I know for a fact that a car manufacturers ten thousand dollar scan tool will not fix anything unless someone with the skills to actually interpret the info given knows what to do. Pretty sure this all spills over to any career path that requires skill, common sense, etc. I guess we live in a throw away world. Ok rant over, now back to your regular programming!


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## Charles Spencer (Sep 19, 2014)

Worcester, Massachusetts, was a pioneer in the development of the trade school movement.  Originally it was funded by the numerous manufacturers and machine tool companies in the city.  And those old Yankees wanted value for their money.  So the school week was nine hours a day, Monday to Friday.  And four hours on Saturday morning for a total of 49 hours a week.  Virtually all of the graduates were hired locally.

Oh, back in the 1960s a student in the machinist class brought in his science project.  It was a belt-fed Gatling type shotgun.  My brother was in school there at the time.  Some of the area companies (Harrington-Richardson, Colt, and Smith & Wesson) showed and told the young man to come see them after graduation.  I doubt if we'd see that again.

Curiously, the PBS documentary about the Roosevelts was just on dealing with the tooling up and production for WW II.  Today?  The steel and wire mills are gone, the machine tool manufacturers are gone, the education and training are gone.  We'd have to tool up to get to the stage where we could start to tool up.

Charles


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## GK1918 (Sep 20, 2014)

You got that right Charlie, Just in my area in Mass,. a local example;  "Fall River the knitting capitol of the world"  "Taunton the Silver City"  Now Fall River has no clue what a
loom is and Taunton don't even own a silver spoon.  And the race going on next door in R.I.  voting politicians claiming to get back jobs put everybody back to work, which in
my book is B.S.  only way to get back jobs is to get rid of them self's,  they caused this mess.  Just try and start a business and here comes the red tape monkeys on the hill.
Most know we do machine work for a large desal. plant (next door) and it took 10yrs of govt red tape before they even cut a tree down.  Now we pump 1 million gal. a day
that keeps us busy; the plant is running a max. OK the kicker- we have a plant, people working, work for me and they are already thinking?????? due to outrageous town TAXES
to book it to Europe and that isnt lowering anyones tax, Am I clear?   Wouldnt it make sense to give them a tax incentive for trying? NO; them suits & ties are brain dead.
Here growing up I cant count the big guys around here textiles machining like Paragon Gear Works Firestone tire & rubber felts dye houses tanneries etc. ALL GONE. Oh yea
Anderson Aircraft right here in my town - thanks smoke stack haters.  Now If I were to start this shop over again now, I wouldnt have a snow ball chance in hell to do so
in a residential area, (I am grandfathered)  Thats my big rant-god forbid a WWIII we'd have to buy military supplys from the enemy.  Cause=too much gov't stickin their
nose'es where it don't belong.  I come from the day when you want to build a barn all neighbors would come and bang nails. now  (a building permit for a dog house) lets get real.


Samuels rant for the week!

There is now weeds and trees blowing in the wind at the site of the famous Lincoln Twist Drill & Mill  plant down the street...


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## 12bolts (Sep 20, 2014)

As this thread is not really suited to introductions it has been moved. 
Although it is on topic there seemed nowhere else suitable to put it.

Cheers Phil


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## chuckorlando (Sep 20, 2014)

Actually Fl is sitting pretty for the future as opposed to much of the US. The expansion of the panamal canal, very low taxes, cheap property, etc puts the state in a great place for the future. On top of that they are getting ready to ramp up shuttle production at nasa again. Northrop grumman, lockheed, all the big boys are here. Gun manufacturing is coming south tecloc hires more apprentice then any other comp. Plus we are surrounded by water and have multiple large boat builders and never ending machine work for all things water related. You can go on line and find all kinda job listing across the state for class 1, 2, etc as well as tool and die makers. It aint that we have no work it's that we have no training.

IMO the real problem is in teaching. Back in the day jut about every comp trained or apprentice their workers. You might have 4 generation that cut their teeth at the ame plant. Now we dont train anyone. Instead we only hire folks with a tech cert then cry and complain about how crappy they are. If the comp was doing the training they would weed out the crap(75% of them here are crap) the first few months. Throw some trig and a few hours on a file and your left with what you want... If anyone is going to finish of American manufacturing, it will be American manufacturers that shoot them selves in the foot.





middle.road said:


> Unfortunately I don't believe that FLA is going to have much going machining wise since the cut backs with NASA.
> You'd probably have to bite it and move to a state that would have more manufacturing. _*Easier said than done.
> *_
> I started in the Chicago suburbs 40 years ago, then down to TX, then out to CA and then back to IL and
> ...


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## chuckorlando (Sep 20, 2014)

I would also say that traditionally jobs like machinist and mechanics, and facilities mait etc did not come from the education system. They came from hard working real man types. Youths who get hired on as a punk and got crafted into an artist. At a time when all you needed was wor ethic and the ability to learn. Why is it so hard to get good machinist or mechanics? I mean real machinist and mechanics not parts changers and button pushers or operators... It's hard cause alot of those types do not do the school thing. They are doers not thinkers. They are busy earning a dollar getting their hands calloused.


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## Pat of TN (Sep 20, 2014)

As a youngin' (20) just entering into the machining workforce, and a recent graduate from a state-run technical school, I say - nail on head, guys.

Another issue is, finding the right person to teach a class. At my school, the teacher was quite knowledgeable about manual machining - and literally clueless when it came to CAD/CAM and operating CNC machines. That really hurts a lot of students, as they basically require training when they go to work even though they went to school - or even un- and re-training from the sloppy way that the machines are operated in school.

I speak with experience in that regard - after running Haas CNC machines for a year in school, it's taken me a week to get comfortable operating Haas CNC machines at where I work, doing it "their" way - one of, not the, but one of the scientific ways, as opposed to by guess and by golly.

But perhaps it's a generational thing - older folks in the industry who stayed with manual machining are lost in CNC. Some younger ones who started with CNC and stuck with it don't know manual. Every so often there are those who bridge the gap, which is what I would love to do. 

But it takes a special kind of person to be a competent teacher as well... one who can lay down the red line when needed with lazy or ignorant students, instead of simply passing them along with a warning...

And as others have said, it's even hard to get into a place without BS connections. They want a 25-year-old, settled-down man with 25 years experience who can do everything in the shop, for $15/hour. Perhaps that's another thing that bothers me - people who do true, hard work that takes a lot of smarts, talent, and concentration get paid less than a lot of people who sit at a desk and rummage through paper. Not to disparage office workers, as that is not a job I could do myself, but the difference in effort and what it takes is clear.

And yet, companies don't want to train new, fresh employees either.


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## Andre (Sep 20, 2014)

12bolts said:


> Andre,
> The quality that you produce now puts you in a class above most others. However, any prospective employer will want/need to see formal educational qualifications. I am not familiar with the US side of entering an apprenticeship and coming out the other side as a tradesman, but here in Australia you would be required to complete year 10 (bare minimum) employers would look more favorably on year 11 or 12 high school, then a 4 year apprenticeship. Unfortunately although you certainly have the ability, you dont have the experience for an employer to trust. I have no doubt you could make it on your own in your own shop but without a rich uncle that aint gonna happen.
> By all means watch and learn as much as you can online but if the opportunity presents itself for hands on for you to prove yourself to someone else, then grab it!
> My situation, I hated school and all I wanted to do was get out and work with my hands. I was lucky, I grew up in an industrial area and apprenticeships were there for the asking, (35 years ago when the government and industry were still looking to the future) but now with jobs at a premium.......If you dont like school and want to get out then perhaps a local machine shop may be an option for you, But be prepared to start at the bottom. Rock bottom! Sweeping up and cleaning. If you are keen then the boss will give you an opportunity to show him what you can do and if he's a stand up guy then he will offer you an apprenticeship. Military service might be an option. The Australian Defence Force offers apprenticeships.
> ...



Thank you for the reply,
A friend of mine who owns a shop down the street here is a long time family friend, and after he has seen some of my work he has asked me to work there for him when labor laws permit. So I plan to do that, it's a smaller production/job shop. He inspects bushings and has machines put Orings on oil caps for lawnmowers, and he needs helpers there with him to clean the shop, run jobs on the mills, and do other odd jobs like inspection, etc. I'm sure that might help out on the resume a little, if anything it can't hurt.

Thanks again!


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## Andre (Sep 20, 2014)

hdskip said:


> Andre,
> I've been thinking about how to respond to your post. Been doing this for several hours in fact. I'll give my opinion and be honest with you. In my area, employers that hire my students are looking for several things:Someone who will show up every day on time, stay off the cell phone, and is trustworthy. Then we talk about skills: Being able to use and read precision measuring tools, read and interpret blueprints and engineering drawings, knowledge of Cad systems is a plus, be capable of doing shop math up to trigonometry. The prospective employee should be able to setup and run simple jobs on the milling machine and lathe (all of mine can work to at least +/-.005.). This is a list of desirable skills. Most independent shops, regardless of size realize that they will have to train most of their employees.
> This is what they accept. What all of them really want is a person 26 years old with 30 years shop experience and will work for $12 and hour. I say that tongue in cheek but there is some truth to it.
> To put it in perspective the difference between  $12/hr and $22/hr is the amount of supervision time required for that person.
> ...



Thank you!
I don't see you as a know it all in the least.

I plan to do two years of community college when I'm 16 to get my batch, then go onto a machining trade school for a few years. I really wouldn't like going to a regular 4yr college, just not what I'm into.

Looked at the NY DOL apprenticeship sheet that states what you have to do and the minimum hours learning a specific tool or machine, seems like something I would really be interested in. I'll keep an eye out for any apprenticeship courses. Would you think an apprenticeship program would be better than actual trade school?

 Thanks again for the reply, the information you've given is greatly valued!


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## Pmedic828 (Sep 21, 2014)

Back then, you made a cannon from metal.  Today, if you wanted to make this, you would be thrown out of school because you were making a "gun" or something like it and that, my friend, is not "PC" in today's world!  There was just a story about a 1st grader chasing others on the playground with his hand and fingers shaped like a handgun, and he was forbidden to return to school because he had a weapon - His fingers  That's today's world!


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## Rbeckett (Sep 21, 2014)

Gary,
Unfortunately machinist's are a dyeing breed.  Now all we have are CNC button pushers who cannot solve a problem or make a simple solution to an issue they are having.  They're only recourse due to their training is to call the Engineer and wait till he decides what button to push to undo the problem.  Unfortunately the Engineers have about the same level of training as the CNC operators, so the systems stay down for much longer than needed.  I have always supported a strong apprenticeship system to train those operators, Engineers, Electricians and the like.  A strong apprenticeship program at the state level administered by the local High School Districts and overseen by the brotherhood or professional standard organizations would be a perfect follow on to a large number of high school students who will not be going on to get college educations.  Some students like myself do not do well in an academic classroom environment.  I am unable to concentrate or follow what an instructor is saying after about 1/2 hour, and these classes run 3 to 4 hours normally.  So I am missing about 2 and 1/2 hours of education for every class I attend.  However, an apprenticeship is one that is hands on, different every day and under the direct supervision of a skilled individual who does posses the requisite skills to pass them on to me in smaller more manageable doses over the 7000 hours I will be in contact with the training.  If I am weak in an area the trainer will insure that I get enough practice in that area to become proficient in the skill and then we will move on.  A solid program would be a benefit to a large number of students, most of those students parents do not realize or choose to ignore the fact that Junior does not have the grades or academic standing to even enter a 4 year degree seeking program.  Once Junior fails out of his first semester of college and is hugely disillusioned by the whole situation as it played out, he or she may be guided gently into a program more suited to their skill set and abilities.  Some of the best machinist's in the world have never seen the inside of a 4 year college classroom and have managed to do quite nicely for themselves and their families over the intervening years.  Again I am a living example.  I managed to school, bathe, house, feed, and raise 2 sons, and always had a car to drive and a place to go home to every night.  There was always food on the table and my wives had trinkets and luxuries commensurate with my income and our lifestyles.  Not bad for a self taught mechanic and welder with minimal formal training in either.  I am however a certified Master Auto, and class 8 truck technician and a 6GR unlimited thickness welder.  I have earned several certifications that are highly sought after in our community, such as Rotating Aerial platform repair and pressure Vessel repair.  The pressure vessel cert really comes in handy when I am working on large hydraulic cylinders in trash compactors and cardboard balers.  Seems nobody has the certs so most of the major companies in the area are calling because they need to hire a technician that conforms to their insurance requirements for repairing their equipment.  Liability being what it is, if you're not certified, they cannot hire you to do the work even if you are more than qualified.  You have to have that paper to show their personnel department when they hire you to do the job. So my vote is a resounding AYE! in support of apprenticeships and ongoing education requirements.

Bob


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## John Hasler (Sep 21, 2014)

Being able to drive and care for a team of horses  was once an important skill and a good supply of skilled teamsters was an essential national resource.  Now, except for hobbiests and a few small niches, that skill is gone, and I don't think that there's any chance that a time will come when we will miss it.  Machining is headed the same way for the same reasons.  Kids who once would have become master machinists now become skilled computer programmers.  Let them.  They can have old Logans out in the garage.

I'm a professional horseman, but I don't think that the schools should be teaching horsemanship.


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## 12bolts (Sep 21, 2014)

I disagree John,
Plenty of unrelated trades have a lathe in the corner of the shop for quick turning jobs that need to be done. Mechanical workshop, Auto electricians, fabrication workshop. These businesses dont need nor could they afford a CNC machine or require one for fabbing a bracket or cleaning up a commutator. Nor does a mechanic or electrician or welder need to be a machinist to do those quick and dirty jobs, but with a bit of vocational training on one they will, may, remember the basics and fumble through the job. Machining shops dont always have a job that can be performed by CNC. Prototype and one off work comes in and sometimes these jobs can only be performed on manual machines. And some of that work needs well qualified and experienced machinists to do it.
100 years ago there were blacksmiths in nearly every little town. Now you be lucky to find one in each big city. But there is still the call for them, and I dont believe they will die out completely. People will always ride horses, so they will always need farriers, saddlers, tack makers..........
My father-in-law has some of the latest and greatest tractors and machinery on his up to date 200 hectare vegetable farm. He uses a computer controlled grading line to sort the produce by size, weight, and quality. But he still uses horsemen to go out in the paddocks to collect the produce because the horse and cart do less damage to the wet ground than tractors do. He laments the availability of skilled horsemen. Just because there is a lesser demand for a skill or trade does not mean it should be allowed to disappear from existance. I remember when computer engine management control in vehicles became popular. Everyone was saying that mechanics were history and you needed to be a programmer to fix a car. Well im pretty sure most programmers would know squat about valve clearances and bleeding fuel injectors, and behold, every mechanical shop i know still employs grease monkeys (sorry Andre) and those guys with the manual skills and stained hands are the ones that know where to plug the diagnostics in but also have the *ability* to pull the motor down when the computer says its %&$#ed

Cheers Phil


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## toolholder (Sep 21, 2014)

For me the best way to learn is jump in and start making saw dust, or chips, or whatever. Today machines are cheap enough that you can go buy one and start learning. About 34 years ago I needed to rebuild my cars automatic transmission because I couldn't afford a rebuilt one. I got a junk transmission and took it apart, looked it over piece by piece. Then I rebuilt my cars transmission which went bad shortly after. Then I rebuilt it again, success!!!! Sometimes there are just too many excuses, jump in and start swimming.


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## pebbleworm (Sep 21, 2014)

From the outside looking in it seems like mass production, factory style machine tools are rapidly (incredibly rapidly!) approaching the point where if you can draw a part the machine can make it.  I thought this article about a 3-D printed rocket part was pretty astonishing:
http://www.nasa.gov/exploration/systems/sls/3d-printed-rocket-injector.html#.VB-MR_ldX6I
If you can spare a few minutes it's interesting reading and has a rocket engine test video (which is always cool).  Modern machinery can make a part that used to require 117 parts with exquisite tolerances in TWO parts.  And the machine does all the work.  Sure the machinery is expensive, but getting cheaper by the minute.  Color TVs used to be expensive and worth fixing too.  The machinery can also be rented out pretty much over the internet.  Take a look at Shapeways-3D printing on demand-
http://www.shapeways.com/
Send them some code, they send you a part.  Or send them some money, and they'll print someone else's part for you. To me, that seems to be where production machine shop work is going.


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## Tony Wells (Sep 21, 2014)

Interesting reading, gentlemen.


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## Rbeckett (Sep 22, 2014)

Tony, 
I would be very interested in your views on this subject and what you would recommend and support.  I strongly support an apprenticeship program that is accessible to everybody and have been wondering where you were on this subject.  I assume that you too have seen the deterioration of the education of machinist's and would like to do something or support something that will raise the standard and attract new comers to the trade before it is too late.  

Bob


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## kevinpg (Sep 22, 2014)

hdskip said:


> I posted this on another forum earlier today. I'm not sure this is the right place but here goes anyway. I'll not be offended if it is moved to a better spot.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



As a lifelong fully employed citizen and working member of a federally recognized tribe, what exactly do you mean by "...Indian Chiefs"?

I am hoping it is entirely innocent but it does not feel like a compliment.


that is all I am going to ask.

Kevin


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## 12bolts (Sep 22, 2014)

Kevin,
Pretty sure this comment was made along the line of "too many chiefs, not enough indians"
As in everybody wants to be the boss, and nobody wants to start on the shop floor and work their way up.

Cheers Phil


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## chuckorlando (Sep 22, 2014)

Very few guys who simply run out in the garage and start learning, will ever meet the level for which a machinist resides. Hell very few who work in the industry will be a machinist. Less and less everyday with button pushers. IMO a cnc opp should be able to do the same job manually. Even if he has never used a manual machine, he will understand the process to part. Yes the machine does the work and a button pusher can run the prog, but a machinist had to draw the part, write the cutter path, simulate it, and change the code to maximize the machines time. In order to do this, you need to understand the fundamentals of making that part. What tool to use, doc, feed, rpm, what and when to drill, steps, off sets, compensation, right down to cutter wear. I dont believe machinist are going any place. In fact I would bet a dollar to a donut we will see a demand rise in the market over the next 10yrs. There are alot of factors at play here if your one for researching and reading. Most machine jobs will  never be as high tech as we like to dream. Sure the tech is there and it's cheaper, but when a job shop has 20k to spend on a new mill or a robot arm, the mill will win everytime. That kinda stuff is reserved for large production shops that run on repeat. Aint no body spending 2 million bucks to automate the production of rzr doors that sale 2 sets a month for 2yrs then the design changes. With exception of the maker of the rzr it's self, Polaris


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## xalky (Sep 22, 2014)

I'm currently making parts for a press manufacturer in my 2 car garage on manual machines. They sell one press a week, more or less. These are large expensive machines. Most of the parts are made on manual machines. Many of the parts have to be ground to tolerances of +- .0002" also on manual grinding machines. For high production, CNC is the way to go, but IMO , manual machinists will always be required. Manual machinists are getting to be very hard to find to. It takes years of in the job experience to become a master. I'm no where near being a master. I learn everyday.


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## hdskip (Sep 22, 2014)

I meant to offend no one by my comment about Indian chiefs. It is a term I've heard in my area of the country all my life. There is nothing derogatory about it. It simply means those of seemingly importance. A high rank in society if you will. I'm sorry if you got offended, that wasn't my intent. I suppose I'll go back to my rocking chair now.


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## Fabrickator (Sep 22, 2014)

chips&more said:


> Back in the day when I could write my name in the snow. And when Middle schools were called Jr. High Schools. And when Jr. and high schools had metal and wood shops (they don’t now in my state, to my knowledge). I made the below cannon on my first year out of grammar school. I can still remember all the great machines that Jr. High School had. We even did sand cast and poured aluminum, can you believe it! In looking back, I suppose there was a huge safety risk for kids at that age running the machines and all. But at the High School age maybe the kids had a little more savvy. Why did the shops all go away in our State? I have no idea, I think it’s a mistake. Everybody wants to be White Collar and buy import crap. I through ranting too.
> 
> View attachment 84052



I too was raised in So Cal in a time when we went to Jr. HS where I took wood, metal and crafts shops.  In crafts we made Plexiglas lamination, (ash tray, key fobs and stuff) and  a sheet metal flower pot with rolled copper front/galv backing and soldered, polish and lacquered.  In metal we sand cast a bust of Mickey Mouse amount other things and made a case hardened Steel chisel in a forge, we soldered a galvanize dust pan, etc.  In wood shop we made a hand carved mahogany floral candy dish, a soap box derby race car (small) and some other toys.  This was real learning of the trades and it's a problem that they don't offer it now for liability reasons because everyone is Law Suit happy.

I HS, I had auto shop for my first 3 periods.  Enough time to really do a tune up on a car or change a starter or radiator or something.  AND, we worked on our own cars!


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## Bill Gruby (Sep 22, 2014)

OK, I have to say this. I have seen the comment, "Dying Breed" to many times now. "Dying -- maybe, to completely die off -- Never Happen". There will always be a need for them as long as something mechanical moves. I see the reason for no kids going to trade school starting in the home. Mom and Dad want their children to have clean jobs. This is a known fact in the schools. Sad state of affairs but fact. Then there are the kids themselves, instant gratification is a must. They don't want to start at the bottom, it's all or nothing.

 I am a third generation Machinist. Two of my Sons and one Daughter are forth generation Machinists. This was their choice. As  far as I am concerned, they chose well. The school system tried to talk them out of it, the kids refused to listen. This doesn't sound like dying to me. There were five girls in the system with my Daughter, they all graduated.

 Yes I agree there are many locations where machining is no longer as important as it was, but it is not totally gone.

 Almost every job shop I visit now has at least one CNC machine, but no manual machines were phased out. They are still there and still used every day.

 I guess I've said enough here and I hope it made some sense to you. Thank you for listening.

 "Billy G"


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## John Hasler (Sep 22, 2014)

kevinpg said:


> As a lifelong fully employed citizen and working member of a federally recognized tribe, what exactly do you mean by "...Indian Chiefs"?
> Kevin



I expect that he means managers.  As in "too many chieftains, not enough Scots."


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## Bill Gruby (Sep 22, 2014)

hdskip said:


> I meant to offend no one by my comment about Indian chiefs. It is a term I've heard in my area of the country all my life. There is nothing derogatory about it. It simply means those of seemingly importance. A high rank in society if you will. I'm sorry if you got offended, that wasn't my intent. I suppose I'll go back to my rocking chair now.



 Gentlemen please, the poster of the comment about this has already explained his meaning. He stated he meant nothing offensive with it. Let's let it go at that.

 "Billy G"


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## Ozwelder (Sep 22, 2014)

Gday all,
Perhaps I can add something to this conversation as I too am an ex high school shop teacher as you guys on the American side of the pond would term it. I have also many years as a trade college technical instructor. Sure! It is an Australian perspective but there well may be some parallels for the situation America.

In my humble opinion there are a couple of reasons behind the decline in the trade training of young people in apprenticeships.

These causes have largely gone unnoticed and ignored by our industry leaders, most trade educators and of course politicians.

*Caliber and Educational background. *
Firstly is the caliber of the training candidates.Once upon a time a certain group of students went from year 12 to university and the rest went from year 10 into labor and trades related work. The students who went to the trades while not university material in general had a good grounding and schools generally  produced good workers for the trades.

From the mid eighties the push was to send more and more students to university has resulted in the upper level of students who would have left at yr 10  to become trades people then continuing on to YR 12 with the view to going to university. The group that formerly may have been relegated to other than trades apprenticeship jobs,the  laborers ( nothing wrong with laborers mind you,but that was all that was available due to this groups educational standard)

Due to the those  who would have been good electricians, plumbers and machinists, etc. then going to university - those kids who took their place as potential tradesmen were in general the ones who would have  formerly been the laborers and had a educational abilities were far less than the student group they subsequently replaced.

*Falling Educational Standards *
The educational system had been dumbed down from the nineties onwards. The result was that the groups then being trained as pre apprenticeship or apprenticeship candidates could  then pass a low level exam but could not effectively read and understand an instruction sheet ,a bill of materials ,specification sheets or add up a simple column of figures without a calculator . Education has tried to hide the numbers of students who don't have adequate literacy and numeracy to perform well in the world outside of school. 
The apprenticeship process has been degraded, in that the time taken to train an apprentice has been reduced and its theoretically possible to gain tradesman status in three years instead of .Students have been signed off on particular training modules by a single assessment of that particular skill. Real competency is the ability to perform to a set standard not once but time and again.Add to that a good percentage of school teacher /trainer/ instructor experience has only been in university teacher training- ie - a week in arc welding bay, and a week on the lathes and mill and so on. Some one with twenty years trade experience behind them can forsee and prevent an accident or a failure. University trained teachers with almost no experience cannot do this., but unfortunately they are the in majority of Australian school trade training teachers. Students go from school to trade colleges where long term trade based but degreed  teachers have been substituted with the lesser paid tradesman who have 12 weeks assessment training behind them.

Text materials for the courses where simplified to an unrealistic level to simply allow those students of low educational ability to pass. It has got down to tick and flick. This has flowed out into safety training for (certificates in the trade such as Induction training,working at heights and confined spaces) where tick and flick courses are conducted to satisfy legal,insurance and operational needs.Trust me ,it goes on , I have been there.

*Industry Complaints*
Industry complaints about the quality of pre trade and trade  students simply not listed to by govt and Educational Authorities.
I have been present in many industrial shops local to where I live and have  listened to employer complaints about (ex school  student) employees who can't read, can't write , can't spell,can't think for themselves  and have poor attitude and time keeping..Schools can only teach if the basic ability is there and that is fostered by the student attitude which is something that mostly comes from home. If not supported from home its near impossible to give a students a good attitude if good attitude is not also supported by MUM and DAD and sadly in many cases it is not. Employers  whom I speak to are tending to reduce the number of apprentice intake each year and perform a fairly thorough interview and selection progress.Even this does not help if potential apprentices are already signed off in modules ( at school) they have no hope of being competent at on the shop floor. I have seen many examples out in industry of indentured tradespeople unable to perform to a basic level.

*Technology and Society*
Technology has had a profound effect on students. Due to such advancements such as the cell phone they are unable to understand the basics of personal communication . In the  pre cell phone  times we could  face each other immediately detect if what we said had an effect on the person we were addressing.We got a smile , a poker face or a scowl or a punch on the nose dependent upon what was being said.
None of this is detectable on a cell phone and these young people have lost much of the art of reading another persons emotions as they talk face to face  with others. Society accepts the cell phone and the negatives  that have come with it. The lack of understanding of  personal interaction has an affect on the shop floor. Also excessive cell phone use in work hours robs the employer of production time which he is paying for. 

Of course there have been exceptions ,but I am only conveying what I have seen in a general sense.

Some of you may see similar things in your country.

Oz


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## kevinpg (Sep 24, 2014)

hdskip said:


> I meant to offend no one by my comment about Indian chiefs. It is a term I've heard in my area of the country all my life. There is nothing derogatory about it. It simply means those of seemingly importance. A high rank in society if you will. I'm sorry if you got offended, that wasn't my intent. I suppose I'll go back to my rocking chair now.


i was not trying to stir a pot. i thank you for the information and accept my apology for setting you back on your heels.

i have probably been reading too much Indian Country news lately and a little sensitive to things.

they still have vo-tech in oklahoma, i had not heard of teaching machinists though. they started vo-tech here in the late 70s and turned out electricians, heating and a/c, carpenters, printers and beauticians.

it is an odd thing in our society that a skilled craftsman is devalued but a manager is exalted. most anyyone can be a manager but few can take a block of steel or wood and make something useful. if we compensated on skill and not the ability to legally remove money from many to a few, i think it would be a better world.


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