# Why a horizontal mill?



## RandyWilson (Sep 22, 2017)

This is kind of a "talk me in/out of it" post.  I have heard rumors of a table-top horizontal mill available locally. Brand/model unknown at this point; the rumor-spreader guessed the table size at 5x15", so it's small. I keep waffling on whether I'm going to go see it or not. I already have a Cincinnati 1B vertical mill.  What must have operation can a horizontal do that my vertical can not? I can see optimizing the machine for the job in a production environment. But what about general dedicated tinkering? Why should I look at this?

 Thanks!


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## Randall Marx (Sep 22, 2017)

I'm seeing the horizontal as being easier to setup in applications like gear cutting, stuff like that where you do machining to a piece held between centers. Also, work done to the ends of long shafts.


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## westsailpat (Sep 22, 2017)

I would say get it if it has a cool factor . Ie : like a atlas MFC . I would not buy if it is something like a Barker , which is a production machine and was made for industry and  is IMO not very good to look at . As far as what you can do with a horizontal ,  as opposed to a vertical . A few things come to mind , but with enough tooling a vertical will do probably 90% of the jobs you need . Really your last part of your post nailed it I think , do you need it for dedicated production ? I kind of don't think so . However if it were me (a hobby machinist) and I had the room/money and the machine has 3 axis , and is way cool to look at I would not hesitate .


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## T Bredehoft (Sep 22, 2017)

There's always a second  operation on small runs of work for a mill, a small horizontal would save tear-down and set-up times in that (second) case. I'd have on one on hand should it present itself (and I could find counter space for it.!)


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## RandyWilson (Sep 22, 2017)

Okay, okay. I'll go look at it.  I pulled up some pictures of Atlas mills. The rumor-spreader pointed to the one with the offset/angled Z-axis handwheel and said it was just like that. 

I've been building up this workshop. It was originally meant to hold two cars being worked on, and storage for a third against the wall. I'm already down to one car and storage for a bicycle. I really am running out of space. And I still haven't had the first car inside. Sigh.


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## ezduzit (Sep 22, 2017)

RandyWilson said:


> ...Why should I look at this?...



If you have to ask, you don't need it.


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## Wreck™Wreck (Sep 22, 2017)

For some of the same reasons that modern horizontal mills are popular in production environments.
Chip control.
Ease of part or fixture handling,
Coolant control.


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## kd4gij (Sep 22, 2017)

The proper question should be. Why not get a new tool.


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## Charles Spencer (Sep 22, 2017)

RandyWilson said:


> What must have operation can a horizontal do that my vertical can not?



Gang milling horizontally.  I suppose you can still gang mill vertically.


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## Wreck™Wreck (Sep 22, 2017)

Charles Spencer said:


> Gang milling horizontally.  I suppose you can still gang mill vertically.
> 
> View attachment 242284


Excellent, you can do better however, 4 cutters doing 2 parts at the same time in a double vice (-:


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## Charles Spencer (Sep 22, 2017)

Wreck™Wreck said:


> Excellent, you can do better however, 4 cutters doing 2 parts at the same time in a double vice (-:



Not on my machine or budget.


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## Glenn Brooks (Sep 22, 2017)

I like my little Burke #4 for surfacing or slotting long flat pieces.  A 1" slab cutter works a lot better and faster for reducing wide surfaces on flat pieces, than taking multiple cuts with a fly cutter or even within 3/8" or 1/2" end mills on the vertical mill.

Plus horizontal machines are a lot of fun to work with- which is the primary reason I make stuff. 

Glenn


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## mzayd3 (Sep 22, 2017)

It'll hog off a lot of material in a single pass. They are fun to watch too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## richl (Sep 22, 2017)

Why are you putting cars in your workshop anyway


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## dulltool17 (Sep 22, 2017)

richl said:


> Why are you putting cars in your workshop anyway


- 

Funny- my "shop" is the garage...Lathe/mill combo machine, drill press and a bunch of tools are in the space between the wife's cars.  She told me she didn't much care for the machines in the garage.  I told her I wondered why she put her cars in my shop.  She didn't really appreciate the notion.......


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## Billh50 (Sep 23, 2017)

Just buy it and if you don't like it send it to me. That way I can return the one I am borrowing.


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## Bob Korves (Sep 23, 2017)

The small Atlas and similar machines are cute, but are not powerful or very rigid.  I played with an Atlas the other day, and with steel it is infernally slow removing metal.


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## Buffalo20 (Sep 23, 2017)

I have an Atlas horizontal mill, Like Bob said, small work area, not very rigid, Zamac gears, weak table feed mechanism (see Zamac gears) and small hp motors, minne 1/4 hp. I made a vertical head for mine, that uses MT#2 collets, with all the other millls I own, its been reduced to work on Bakelite pieces, I use to make. I'd buy a larger horizontal mill in a heartbeat, but the real small ones, at least for me, are basically very limited capacity, shop decoration.


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## RandyWilson (Sep 23, 2017)

ezduzit said:


> If you have to ask, you don't need it.





Need?  NEED? As far as I know, nothing in this forum is about "need".   



Bob, that was my thinking.  A horizontal can hog off more metal.... for equal sized machines. I haven't seen this one yet, though I have been trying to get ahold of the owner.  But I suspect it will be more of a conversation than a workhorse. I still have my HF 7x12 lathe setup even though the SB is the only thing being used. This would most likely be of the same usefulness.


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## markba633csi (Sep 23, 2017)

15 inch table is kinda short- my Diamond mill is 5 x 20 and it's JUST enough.  
Mark S.


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## Ulma Doctor (Sep 23, 2017)

i don't think anybody has asked...
WHY NOT A HORIZONTAL MILL ????? 

just because a man like blondes, it doesn't mean he can't appreciate a brunette or a red head 

i have both horizontal and vertical milling machines (2 of them are both horizontal and vertical)
i like to deep slot with the horizontal mill, it can do it in one pass
slabbing is nice on a horizontal mill too.

IMO the work seems a bit slower with the horizontal mill, but the finish can be very good.
i can imagine that a lot of work is better done on a vertical mill,
but it doesn't hurt to have the capability to do more, by having more tools


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## Bob Korves (Sep 23, 2017)

Larger and more powerful and rigid horizontal mills make piles of chips, and can be often left unattended while cutting, putting most vertical mills to shame and letting other work get done at the same time.  They are more versatile in some ways, less in others.  The truly well equipped shop should have both, like Mike said.


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## Billh50 (Sep 23, 2017)

I have found a small horizontal mill is better than a drill press with an x,y table. But then one sometimes has to do with what one has. Unless someone lends them a machine.
The Atlas I have here was lent to me. I know someday it will be leaving here. And because of that I have limited myself to quick projects on it.


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## 4GSR (Sep 23, 2017)

Used to own a No. 3 Brown & Sharpe horizontal mill, an old over head driven mill.  Pulled the old spindle and replaced with a smaller compact Timken equipped spindle with a No. 40 NMTB mount.  Used to run a 4" face mill on that mill and did lots of slabbing and roughing out on that old mill.  We had a large right angle plate with a visse mounted to that allowed us to hold just about anything for milling.  There's been days I wish I still had that mill!  Last seen on Craigslist in south Houston!


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## Silverbullet (Sep 23, 2017)

Need for mill, most horizontal mills come with power feeds, on the bigger, better ones the power is to all directions. With rapid traverse. Wish I had a bigger one . But my atlas will do for one .


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## Wreck™Wreck (Sep 23, 2017)

4gsr said:


> Used to own a No. 3 Brown & Sharpe horizontal mill, an old over head driven mill.  Pulled the old spindle and replaced with a smaller compact Timken equipped spindle with a No. 40 NMTB mount.  Used to run a 4" face mill on that mill and did lots of slabbing and roughing out on that old mill.  We had a large right angle plate with a visse mounted to that allowed us to hold just about anything for milling.  There's been days I wish I still had that mill!  Last seen on Craigslist in south Houston!


We scrapped a Cinci. #5 early this year, what a pain running that machine was, the spindle center was 60" off of the floor.
On the good side you could put a 10" twelve insert face mill in it and knock 1/4" of steel off per pass, excellent machine for roughing stock for later finishing in other machines.

I do not miss it however, cumbersome and cranky at best. They had a 30" Bullard VTL which they should have kept.

Still have this old cranky 48" radial drill press though, the owner appears attached to it.


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## Ulma Doctor (Sep 24, 2017)

now that's a drillpress!!!


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## projectnut (Sep 24, 2017)

Horizontal mills excel at making multiple profiles on a single pass or single setup.  With a vertical mill each slot or profile has to be milled individually.  This means there is more room for possible error in all dimensions, Length Depth and Width.  With a horizontal mill multiple cutters can be installed on the arbor.  As long as all the cutters are the same diameter and width all the slots will be identical.  Also as previously mentioned it can be setup with slab mils that can make a considerably wider path across a piece of stock than a similarly sized vertical mill.

Another advantage is that you can work on multiple surfaces with a single setup of the material.  You can mill two vertical surfaces, the top horizontal surface with a single setup, and drill or bore one vertical  surface without ever repositioning the stock.


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## pineyfolks (Sep 24, 2017)

The only thing I miss on my small horizontal mill over my vertical mill is the lack of a quill when drilling.
I use an angle plate on mine a lot to put the work in a similar position as a vertical mill  and use endmill holders instead of the horizontal arbor and overarm.


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## Rockytime (Sep 24, 2017)

I had a Burke #4 which I sold. I would love to have a small bench top horizontal mill like an Atlas or similar specifically cutting small gears and clock wheels.


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## RandyWilson (Sep 25, 2017)

I actually got a quick look at the machine just now.  Or rather, the boxes of parts that supposedly will make a machine. It's cute. It's tiny. Without a tape measure, I'd put the bed at 5x16". It is an Atlas, though the model/number tag was not locate quickly.  The entire "chang-o-matic" transmission  has been stripped off.... I assume for good reason. Pass.


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## IanT (Sep 25, 2017)

Well that's a pity Randy - but hopefully, it will still find a good home. Apart from the Sieg SU1, these small horizontal machines aren't made any more but they can still do good work for the right person. "Small" is relative of course, a matter of perspective. Depends whether you want to build a 6" scale traction engine or repair watches - or maybe just something in-between (as I do).

I own an Atlas MF and find her very useful & well made. I have a MT2 vertical head for her but also use the Atlas spindle (which is also MT2) directly. It will take all my Myford MT tooling - including my ER32 chucks. For a small mill, it has table feed, is actually pretty rigid (when compared with some small verticals) and something (I really like) a clutch in the drive train. Very useful for some work, where I don't want to turn the motor on and off constantly. The rise and fall 'knee' avoids all the problems some verticals have with head alignment and makes it fairly easy to mount a (simple) vertical head. I also have a Taig ER16 milling head (with self-contained motor) that I will probably fit up in place of the existing (spindle belt-driven) MT2 one eventually (faster spindle whilst retaining table feed if required). She's also well made, nice (1950's) details like keyed handles and should anything go wrong, largely repairable. Simple, old technology but still perfectly usable in my hobby workshop.

Of course, if I do need something larger, I also have a Victoria HO horizontal. The 36" table can traverse about 25" of work under the horizontal arbor, vertical head or spindle. The MT3 vertical head can be turned through 90 degrees, so it can machine/power bore (sideways) quite large pieces on the table that I suspect might be much harder to get under the spindles of most verticals - it is also very rigid even in this set-up. Frankly it's a fairly simple machine but built like the proveriable brick outhouse. Both my horizontals have 1" arbors - so use common arbor tooling. It was also a very inexpensive machine - as (strangely) most folk don't seem to want them.

Which brings me back to the question "Why Horizontal?".  Well ( as you may have gathered) because in my view when equipped with a vertical head, you get a very versatile, rugged mill, that is not only robust but usually a lot cheaper than the equivelent sized vertical. You can pretty much do all the things a vertical can do, plus a few things that just seem easier on a horizontal (like gear cutting, splinning, slabbing, sawing etc). A horizontal can also function as a short-bed, large diameter lathe of course.  So even if I was starting over again, I'd certainly look for a good horizontal - but preferably a Universal and I'd try to fit it with a vertical head with a drilling quill. I'd then have a machine that could do everything a vertical could do - plus a few things it can't (or is not as good at).

Of course, I'm probably a little unusual in my machine preferences ( I really like shapers too ) - but there you are - I'm beyond redemption I'm afraid.

Friendly regards from the UK.

IanT


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