# Norman Style QCTP



## mickri (Sep 15, 2019)

This is how I intend to make my new boring bar holders.  I will need one for each size boring bar that I have.


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## T Bredehoft (Sep 15, 2019)

Thank you for a well written report on a much needed common tool (set of tools) I made a bunch of these when I first got my MK2 four years ago.

Re: Boring bar damage.-- mill  a flat on the top of the bar to keep it square and receive the  bruising from the set screws.


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## mickri (Sep 16, 2019)

I thought about milling a flat on the boring bar.  I have not done that because 1) I don't think that I have the skill to mill the flat precisely on the top of the bar with the tool bit at the correct angles and 2) I find that I often have to adjust the angle of the tool bit for clearance issues.
Even though I have had my lathe for 3 years I am still a newbie hack at machining.  I like being able to adjust the angle of the tool bit by rotating the boring bar.


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## mickri (Sep 17, 2019)

I know you guys like pictures.  So here is my norman QCTP.  Not pretty but it works really well.


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## Winegrower (Sep 18, 2019)

Nice work!   I agree about set screws and the burrs they put on the part...it’s what I dislike most about my R8 boring head.    

I am curious about the advantages of this Norman style hardware.   It would seem to me that for most purposes the basic dovetail wedge or piston QCTP and holders would work, and for the time and money invested, would be less expensive.

Comments?   Am I missing something?


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## mickri (Sep 18, 2019)

It does take time to make the tool holders.  It takes me 3 to 4 hours to make each tool holder.  Probably half that time for somebody who knows what they are doing.  No big deal for a hobbyist.  If your are trying to make a living as a machinist time is money and you are better off to buy.

No comparison in cost.  My first batch of 7 tool holders cost me around $8 per tool holder.  That was with buying the 1 1/4 x 2 1/4 bar online and paying for shipping.  I got the steel for the next batch from a local machine shop at a cost of less than $2 per tool holder.  For under $100 I will have 20 tool holders.

Another side benefit for a beginning hobbyist like me is the learning experience.   I start by drawing the holders in Google Skecthup.  Then you have to layout everything out on your steel.  Next is dialing in your steel in a 4 jaw to get the center hole where you want it.  Followed by boring the hole to .001 of the post.  Lots of measurements to take.  Off to the mill to mill the slot in the proper location and to depth and width.  Lots of holes to drill and tap too.  All of this adds up in the experience department.


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## mickri (Sep 23, 2019)

I was going to make a dedicated tool holder for parting.  But I needed to part off the excess on a bushing that I have been making.  Call it lazy or whatever but I didn't feel like spending 3 to 4 hours to make the tool holder.  So on a wild chance I decided to see if one of my already made tool holders would hold a parting blade.  Put the blade in and tightened down.  Everything looked square and solid.  So I gave it a whirl.   Did a test cut.  Looked like it might have been a little below center line.  Raised it up by about .010.  Very easy to do with a 1/4x20 adjusting screw.

All I can say is it worked very well.  I got a nice smooth cut.  The only thing that had me a little worried was that it squealed like a stuck pig at times and at other times it was a quiet as a church mouse.  Here's my new dedicated parting blade holder.


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## mickri (Sep 29, 2019)

Finished up another tool holder.  Took a long time to make.  Probably 7 to 8 hours.  Didn't help that I broke off a tap.  I am going to have to learn how to remove a broken tap without spending a lot of money on some new piece of equipment.

I posted a drawing of this tool holder above.  Haven't used it yet.


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## mickri (Oct 8, 2019)

Made another one of the angled tool holders.  I wanted to have both a left and a right.  Got to thinking it could be reversible by having holes for the set screws that hold the tool bit in place on both sides of the tool holder.  So that's what I did.  This one took me 5 1/2 hours to make.


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## AmericanMachinist (Jan 28, 2021)

This write up is great - thank you for sharing! 

Have you experimented with detents around the tool post since the original write up?   I'm planning to do this, using the method you illustrated in the post.  I'm planning to drill 3/16" square-bottom holes with an end mill, and turn the bottom 1/8" of 1/4-28 height-adjusting screws to a few thousandths under 3/16.  I don't have a rotary table, so I'll have some fun with a coaxial indicator on the tool post and the trigonometry to get to each hole from the tool post center.

Thinking of drilling every 15* between 0* and 90*.   If I need any other angles as a one-off, I'll have to adjust the height adjusting screw for it.  

As I write this, I'm questioning whether maybe it's a better plan to not index on the height adjusting screws, but index on a pin that has a loose fit in a secondary hole, with a head on the pin so it can't fall through.  Let the pin drop in an index hole to set at a standard angle, or lift the pin to set at an angle not accommodated by the index.


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## martik777 (Jan 28, 2021)

I made an indexing ring and eventually discarded it, as I found it of little use especially when repositioning the compound.  Often I would find I needed a position between the index detents which just made them annoying. If I am making a bunch of parts I will mark the cutoff holder position on the post and holder for some repeatability.


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## mickri (Jan 29, 2021)

I have not even considered trying to add indexing.  To have it work every tool holder would have to be absolutely identical.  I do not have the skill to do that.  

Does your mill vise have a swivel base?  Mine came with a swivel base.  I made a backing plate that fits my lathe chucks and I have dialed in the base on the table of my mill.  Very easy to take the chuck over to the mill to drill precise bolt circles or mill a slot without losing concentricity.


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## AmericanMachinist (Jan 29, 2021)

I am using a "drill press vise" with the exposed screw on top, without a swivel base.   A mill vise is on the long list of things I want over time.

My thought was to indicate the mill exactly over the center of the tool post, travel to a hole and drill it.  Return to center of tool post, travel to the next hole location, and so on.

In regards to making the tool posts the same and repeatable... I figured I would place the indexing pin hole a defined location from center of the bore - for example aligned along the X-axis and 0.750" away from center.   This way each tool holder simply has to be aligned over the center of the bore and moved in one direction the 0.750".   If making a batch of these, I'd probably use stops to simply position each holder for the same hole as a series.  The simple dimension from the required reference (the bore) means the position would be easy to replicate in future batches.

Maybe I'm overly optimistic in that approach.


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## AmericanMachinist (Jan 29, 2021)

I have been shopping for pins with a shoulder or head, which should be easy to lift when an angle other than one drilled into the base is needed.  I believe a relatively simple solution - and one that will provide a compact but easy-to-grip head will be to use dowel pins, press on a small head of TBD material, and lightly knurl the head.   The result will be a dowel pin with a SHCS-like head to aid lifting when the pin isn't needed for indexing.   I'll share how this goes as the project unfolds.   Still sourcing materials.    1018 flat bar is pricey!


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## mickri (Jan 29, 2021)

You can use anything that you can find to make the tool holders.  Does not need to be 1018.  Have you checked with any local machine shops to see what they may have laying around.  I did a quick search for steel suppliers in Nashville and there are a bunch.  Start calling around to see what they have in their scrap bins.  Tool holders need to be around 2.5 inches long.  The length depends on the OD of the post.  You can get 9 out of a 24" piece.  19 out of a 48 inch piece.  For $100 you can get enough steel for 15 to 20 tool holders.  I checked Midwest Steel.  Their cost for a 1 1/4 x 2 x 48 1018 flat bar was $51 plus shipping. 

I think that your idea for the pin will work.


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## martik777 (Jan 30, 2021)

Wow, Midwest pricing is less than 1/2 of Onlinemetals

I've made a few toolholders out of 1/2" stock by welding on a piece of L shaped stock for the toolbit. They work just fine for light to moderate cuts


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## BaronJ (Sep 24, 2021)

Hi Mickri, Guys,

I've had a good read at your write up, its some time since we discussed The Norman Patent toolpost !  The original design used a split collet to secure the tool block, I recall that you had problems breaking securing bolts. Also the column had a pair of pins at the bottom locating in the slots to stop the column rotating on the cross slide surface, though I found that the column was quite secure without them, I did use pins on the rear tool post.

I also made the rear post and front post the same diameter so that I could interchange tool holders as I wished.  I only bothered to make three tool holders, one for the boring bar and another for the parting off blade in addition to the front one.  I note that the suggestion to mill a flat on the top of the boring bar has been made.  I didn't bother doing that on mine though I did put a brass tip on the screws.

I find that its quicker to simply loosen the tool holding screws and swap tools, particularly since its so quick and easy to adjust the tool height as needed.





These are pictures of my front tool post showing front and back views.




These two pictures are of my rear tool post showing the parting blade.



This picture is the bottom of the rear tool post column showing the two brass pins that locate in the cross slide slots.


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## martik777 (Sep 24, 2021)

How does it clamp to the post without a slit?


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## BaronJ (Sep 24, 2021)

martik777 said:


> How does it clamp to the post without a slit?


I mentioned that it used a split collet in the first two lines of my post.


This is a picture of the split collet.  The threads are drilled out of one half.  This picture shows a length of M6 rod with both halves screwed on.


This is what it looks like inside the tool block. In the previous pictures you can see that I recessed the cap screw head.

Apologies: It was the rear one that had the collet screw recessed.
HTH.


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## martik777 (Sep 24, 2021)

That's slick!


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