# So, So Many Questions...



## Mr.Haines (Apr 27, 2015)

Hello!

I am entirely new to the world of machining, my experience with metal so far has been mostly limited to hitting things with hammers and a bit of angle grinding. I'm looking to upgrade my glass-working shop and a lathe would be a huge asset, but I don't even know where to begin determining exactly what I need or what to look for. I've spent a small amount of time browsing this forum and various sites across the internet, but my progress has been slow. So, at the risk of boring you all to tears, help!

The first thing I'll be doing with my lathe is making an engagement ring for my girlfriend. She's not a fan of costly anything, she hates gemstones and all that stuff, and I'm a stickler for long-lasting materials. So, I'm going to make the ring out of steel instead of casting a gold one. (I won't buy anything if there's even a slight chance I can make it, I'm sure most of you folks are in that boat with me.)

After the ring, I'll need to make several brass molds for shaping glass. I need to be able to cut a 6" diameter hemisphere into a piece of solid brass. This is the most extreme thing I will end up needing to do, and I suppose I could go down to 4" or 5" if it made a difference in the cost or availability of the machine.

I'm sure over time I'll want to knock out some smaller brass and steel parts for a variety of things, I also have a project that would call for a torpedo-shaped aluminum piece with a small hole through the center. Being a person in constant need of containers, and being rather disdainful of plastic, I'd like to be able to make some aluminum canisters with threaded tops. These won't have to be fine threads.

I don't personally plan on making anything terribly detailed or complex with the lathe, though my girlfriend is in the process of getting her doctorate in Mechanical Engineering, so I could picture some insane late-night need for a decent lathe.

Space and weight are moderate concerns. I currently have a very small shop, but I will be moving to Minnesota in about five months. The lathe should be able to travel with me, so I can't get a massive monster of a thing - it's doubtful I could afford one anyway. That brings me to my last issue - I can't afford anything more than $1800 and I'd prefer the price be closer to $1000 or $1500. (Sorry if this is one of those moments where my stupidity on the subject really shines through, I know lathes are expensive, especially if you want a decent machine.)

Well, I get that I'm basically asking you to shop for me, but could somebody give me a bit of direction here? I'd appreciate it greatly! If nothing else, can somebody help me understand what size of lathe I need to get?!


 Thanks a ton,

Kyle


P.S.
I really, really love antique tools and I buy them whenever I can afford to. If possible I would enjoy having an old lathe around. So, is there a particular brand or model I could keep an eye out for?


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## ray (Apr 27, 2015)

As far as the ring you make.   I would use a good grade of stainless steel and not just steel.  As far as the lathe goes, I can offer no advise.  Wishful success in your endeavor.


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## Mr.Haines (Apr 27, 2015)

Ray:

I should have said, I do plan on using Stainless. Thanks!


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## JimDawson (Apr 27, 2015)

A bit of a tall order Mr.Haines.  Given the parameters, I would be looking for a used 12x36 Atlas, Clausing, Logan, or South Bend bench lathe in the old American iron.  A used Jet would also be a good choice.  There are some other Asian machines out there in the same size range but quality varies widely.  The value of the machine is totally dependent on condition and tooling.  The good news is that in your area, there are quite a number of used machines on the market.  Craigslist is a good resource.  Be willing to travel to find a good buy.

We will be happy to help you spend your money.  As you find machines, feel free to ask questions about them.  A personal inspection before purchase is an absolute must when buying used machines.  If you can fine someone knowledgeable in machine tools to help you inspect the machine it would be very helpful.  We have a number of members in your area and someone may be able to help you out with that.

I would consider 304 stainless (unless your girlfriend is allergic to nickle) or titanium for the ring.


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## Mr.Haines (Apr 27, 2015)

Jim, thanks for the info! I have been pouring over Craigslist for the past couple of days and I've seen a few machines that I might look at. Your guidance is most appreciated and it'll definitely help in the search. Once I've found something I definitely want to try buying, I'll post the info here. 

How hard do you think it will be to move a machine of your suggested size from one state to another? I'm not sure how big that actually ends up being, though I'll be asking the almighty Google Images once I've finished posting this.

As for the ring, I hadn't yet thought about nickel being an issue. She's not allergic, but I know that sort of thing can develop with constant contact. Titanium's probably the best bet then.


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## JimDawson (Apr 27, 2015)

Mr.Haines said:


> How hard do you think it will be to move a machine of your suggested size from one state to another?



Way back in the day, when I was just starting out, I bought a 12x36 Craftsman Commercial (Atlas) bench lathe, my friend and I carried it down the stairs to the basement.  So not bad to move.  In general you are looking at 250-350 lbs for a bench lathe in that size range.  If it has a cabinet, then add another 100 lbs or so.  From the 1969 Sears Catalog the 12x36 shipping weight is 348 lbs, the cabinet model is 505 lbs


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## Mr.Haines (Apr 27, 2015)

Fantastic!! I can absolutely handle those weights, thanks for the info. Back to Craigslist!


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## brino (Apr 27, 2015)

Hi Kyle,

Let me be the first to welcome you to the site.
What I enjoy most about being here is the number of people with totally different skills and perspectives.
Ask a question and you'll probably end up with several suggestions you never could have come up with alone.



Mr.Haines said:


> The first thing I'll be doing with my lathe is making an engagement ring for my girlfriend.



What a great and very personal gift! For that project quite a small lathe could do, however you are wise to also look forward to future projects.
A ring could be turned on an expanding collet or a tapered arbour.

I am a firm believer in buying the biggest, best tools that you can afford (both financially and size/weight wise).

Be advised that once you have a basic lathe you'll see the major advantages in upgrading various parts and adding tooling to extend your capabilites (quick change tool-post, maybe a collet set, a second chuck, tailstock keyless chuck, calipers, micrometers, dial indicator, etc., etc. etc.). The price of all the add-on can easily equal (or exceed) the price of the base machine, however those investment can be spread over years. You'll just join the rest of us looking for the next accessory....

That said, if you could find a decent lathe for around $1000, then you'd still have some funds to start outfitting it.

If you haven't already seen them, there's some good advice on buying used machines here:
http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/how-to-select-and-buy-a-metalworking-lathe.25974/
and here:
http://www.mermac.com/advicenew.html



Mr.Haines said:


> I need to be able to cut a 6" diameter hemisphere into a piece of solid brass.



You should look into a ball-turning tool for the lathe, it's kind of used "backwards" to do a spherical recess.
Would you consider casting that shape instead? Removing that much metal is certainly possible, but you end up removing a large volume of material as chips.
You could look at green-sand or lost-styrofoam brass casting. It is NOT out of the realm of home/hobby work.
The idea is to cast the object close to the final shape you need, and then finish it on the lathe.
It also gives you the ability to reuse any metal (brass, aluminum, etc) chips in other projects.

Key figures of merit for a lathe:
-swing over bed and carriage
-distance between centres
-spindle thru hole
-speed ranges

-brino


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## Mr.Haines (Apr 27, 2015)

brino said:


> Would you consider casting that shape instead?



brino, I would absolutely be happy to cast and then clean up the item. My concern extends to the amount of additional equipment required. I've done a small amount of casting with Pewter in the past and I had a fair bit of trouble. It wasn't with the green sand or Lost Styrofoam methods, so I'm not against trying those or even re-trying what I did last time. However, I don't think I can afford my new glass equipment, the lathe, _and_ a furnace for melting brass. (Whether I buy or build it)  The kiln I'm looking to get for the glass would be hot enough, but I wouldn't want to risk melting brass in it. In the future it'll be something I aim for, but not all at once. 

Since you suggested it, perhaps there's something you know about melting brass that I may not have happened upon. Is there an inexpensive method of doing this?

Thanks for the info, encouragement, and links!


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## brino (Apr 27, 2015)

Hey Kyle,



Mr.Haines said:


> Is there an inexpensive method of doing this?



Full disclosure, I have not tried brass casting myself, although I am already collecting all the scrap I can find for future endeavors.

I currently use a homemade propane burner to melt aluminum (660 deg. C.). My melting pot is a steel cylinder sleeve from a tractor. My "furnace" is a pile of fire bricks simple stacked up around the pot.

My burner was made like this:
http://backyardmetalcasting.com/oliverburner1.html

I have not attempted to melt brass(900-940 deg. C.) myself, but a friend of mine is currently making his own silicon-bronze (950 deg. C.) with his propane burner.

I tried copper once, but could not reach the required temp. (1080 deg. C.).
I believe my biggest issue is with heat loss. I need to find the time to build a better furnace, something like this:
http://backyardmetalcasting.com/hmkit.html
I also want to try a waste-oil burner like this:
http://backyardmetalcasting.com/oilburners10.html

So many fun projects.....so few lifetimes to complete them!

-brino

(all the melting temperature above are from wikipedia; exact temps depend on the alloys involved, I have no way to measure temps that high!)


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## stupoty (Apr 28, 2015)

I would say the recomendation of a good second hand lathe Is a good idea In that price range especialy if it comes with some reasonable amount of tooling and or chucks etc. , also if your new to lathe work and want to do so some small projects for starters and with the thought that your going to move your workshop soon it may be worth keeping an eye out for a lathe on the larger size of small as they are a lot lighter.  And on the plus side you will have a reasonable excuse to get a second one later  

Stuart


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## Mr.Haines (Apr 28, 2015)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hardinge-/181725135054?

How does this look? (Aside from the happy little price) There's almost no info about it, so I don't even know the model, but the eBay protection would cover me on some problems. I've already asked about dimensions and model numbers, but haven't heard back yet.


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## JimDawson (Apr 28, 2015)

While that is a great little lathe and Hardinge is absolutely top of the line, no.  That is a second operation lathe, is not screw cutting, and will not do what you want.  I did not mention Hardinge in my list of lathes because they are normally way out of your price range.  Now if you can find a Hardinge HLV tool room lathe for under $2000, snap it up quick.


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## Mr.Haines (Apr 28, 2015)

I think i actually did see one of those! Thanks Jim


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## RJSakowski (Apr 28, 2015)

Mr.Haines said:


> I need to be able to cut a 6" diameter hemisphere into a piece of solid brass.
> Kyle


Keep in mind that a 4" x 7"dia. cylinder of brass will weigh in at about 35 lbs.  I would plan on threading the base and mounting to a faceplate if attempting this on a small lathe. Although it is not difficult to turn concave  forms on a lathe, that is an awful lot of material to remove if starting with a cylinder.  New cost for a chunk of brass that size will set you back more than $250.  I would definitely consider casting a rough shape. The cost will be substantially less and your starting weight will be a little over half.


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## Mr.Haines (Apr 28, 2015)

What I may do is start with a shallower form and use that to rough out the larger spherical shapes that I will need to make.  (Referring to the glass working.) I have a knack for gravity shaping spherical and rounded objects, so I can hold off on the really big perfect spheres until I can afford to cast something or have it cast. Brass may be expensive, but it will be much, much cheaper to have the lathe in the long run - brass molds can be really expensive. In the future I will want a mill too, so I can make any molds that I need.

Can I work Graphite on these lathes, or should that be done on something more specialized. For now, I could make the large molds out of graphite. I hate graphite molds, but the material is cheaper and I am fairly certain that it is a decent bit lighter than brass.


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## RJSakowski (Apr 28, 2015)

Mr.Haines said:


> Can I work Graphite on these lathes, or should that be done on something more specialized. For now, I could make the large molds out of graphite. I hate graphite molds, but the material is cheaper and I am fairly certain that it is a decent bit lighter than brass.


You should not have a problem working with graphite.  Injection mold makers use it all the time to make EDM form electrodes for complex dies.


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## silence dogood (Apr 28, 2015)

If you are going to be making containers, I'd look into metal spinning.  Mark


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## JPigg55 (Apr 28, 2015)

If you're planning a move to Minnesota, start shopping there as well on craigslist, eBay, and others,
Might be able to pick up a better deal and not have to move it.


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## brino (Apr 29, 2015)

Mr.Haines said:


> I have a knack for gravity shaping spherical and rounded objects, so I can hold off on the really big perfect spheres until I can afford to cast something or have it cast.



Hi again Kyle, I've been thinking more about this thread. I know little about glass work.....Can you enlighten me?
(Don't get me real hooked on it though, I already have too many hobbies.....)

Why are brass mold used for glass making? What properties make it right?
Is about smooth surface finish, weight(but then you would not be asking about graphite I bet), thermal conductivity? 

Would a fine polished aluminum hemispherical bowl shape work? It would likely be much less expensive (lower material cost and easier to make).

Do you have any pictures of spherical glass pieces you've done or are working on?

Thanks!
-brino


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## Mr.Haines (May 11, 2015)

brino:

It's pretty easy to get hooked on glass!

Brass seems to be the optimum material for most molds and shaping molds and tools because it handles heat well, holds a very smooth finish, and it doesn't rust. However, the most important thing in my book is that hot glass has a hard time sticking to hot brass.

Steel is great, but it does anneal when you're getting it in and out of the torch, poking liquid glass, etc. I have several steel tools, but they are mostly grabbing equipment like pliers. At certain temperatures glass actually will adhere to steel,  even if the steel is dirty or lubricated. This can damage tools, ruin your work, or at least be a little annoying if you didn't want it to happen.

Aluminum is used for some optical molds. These molds are used to force glass into near-perfect shapes that are relatively simple, but impossible or insanely difficult otherwise. (Star, hexagon, etc.) Because glass spends a relatively short period of time in these molds, some are made out of aluminum. If you keep the glass in the mold too long, you'll melt it.

I haven't made any large spheres yet, just small marbles. My glass kiln isn't big or strong enough to handle the grand objects Iwant to make. Fortunately, as I've said, the whole shop is getting gussied up. The new kiln that's coming can handle pieces up to 10" wide and tall. Ooooooooh, that's nice.


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## Mr.Haines (May 11, 2015)

And yes, I'll post a few photos soon.


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## Strtspdlx (May 11, 2015)

If you're in the New Jersey area I may have something fit the bill for a lathe. It's inexpensive enough that you can spend the reminder tooling it up for all your needs. I'd think a 10" or even a 9" should fit your needs also how long the things you'll make will have an effect on what lathe you want. The longer the piece the more bed length you need. 


Regards-Carlo


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## stupoty (May 11, 2015)

silence dogood said:


> If you are going to be making containers, I'd look into metal spinning.  Mark



Yeah metal spinning would be a good way of making loads of shapes from thinner brass and alumnium.

Stuart


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## Mr.Haines (May 11, 2015)

Spinning. New desired future skill.


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## Mr.Haines (May 11, 2015)

Strtspdlx said:


> If you're in the New Jersey area I may have something fit the bill for a lathe. It's inexpensive enough that you can spend the reminder tooling it up for all your needs. I'd think a 10" or even a 9" should fit your needs also how long the things you'll make will have an effect on what lathe you want. The longer the piece the more bed length you need.
> 
> 
> Regards-Carlo




I'm in central Connecticut, NJ is not a quick little drive and I'm assuming shipping a lathe here would cost a pretty penny. Thanks though!


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