# Hot Hot Is Too Hot...



## cdhknives (Mar 30, 2015)

So I was fiddling (technical term) with the grease caps on my lathe.  These are the ones on the ends of the shaft holding the intermediate pulleys.  I notice that I am constantly slinging black grease, and as I worked with them trying to see why, I found that one of the bearings is getting hot to the touch, even on low speed.  On high speed within a minute or two it is uncomfortable to touch.

I need to tear it down.  When I brought the lathe back into service I did a complete cleanup of these, and noticed no significant issues except poor condition of the felt endcaps.  If these felts are hardened with gunk, will it let so much grease escape that the bearings are not adequately lubricated?


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## RJSakowski (Mar 30, 2015)

cdhknives said:


> So I was fiddling (technical term) with the grease caps on my lathe.  These are the ones on the ends of the shaft holding the intermediate pulleys.  I notice that I am constantly slinging black grease, and as I worked with them trying to see why, I found that one of the bearings is getting hot to the touch, even on low speed.  On high speed within a minute or two it is uncomfortable to touch.
> 
> I need to tear it down.  When I brought the lathe back into service I did a complete cleanup of these, and noticed no significant issues except poor condition of the felt endcaps.  If these felts are hardened with gunk, will it let so much grease escape that the bearings are not adequately lubricated?


It sounds like a galled shaft or bearing journal.  Pulleys operate with a very high radial load so any friction will cause heating.  It is probably throwing grease because of the temperature rise more than a poor seal.  When you pull it apart again, you should see the cause.


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## pdentrem (Mar 30, 2015)

Might have the passage plugged up, but since the grease is coming out that is not likely. I would suspect that the grease is not getting into the bearing itself. Tear down required no matter. I made a tin cover that used a magnet to hold it in place and protect me from the spitting grease.
Pierre


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## cdhknives (Mar 30, 2015)

I'm using Mobil 1 synthetic axle grease, BTW.  It goes in red, comes out black.  Not good for something supposed to survive extremely high temperatures.


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## RJSakowski (Mar 30, 2015)

cdhknives said:


> I'm using Mobil 1 synthetic axle grease, BTW.  It goes in red, comes out black.  Not good for something supposed to survive extremely high temperatures.


If it is changing from red to black, the black is most likely metal.


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## Wierd Harold (Mar 30, 2015)

One of the best things I did to my lathe was make new carriers and add sealed bearings. 
Pretty easy job .
HWF


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## cdhknives (Mar 31, 2015)

I'd like to see that.  I was looking at bearings but ball bearings are probably too large in diameter and roller bearings would ride on the same shaft...not much real difference except sealed.


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## Wierd Harold (Mar 31, 2015)

cdhknives said:


> I'd like to see that.  I was looking at bearings but ball bearings are probably too large in diameter and roller bearings would ride on the same shaft...not much real difference except sealed.


There was a thread on here with drawings and part #, but here are a couple of pics.

View media item 94628View media item 94629


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## cdhknives (Mar 31, 2015)

Links give me a permission error...


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## Wierd Harold (Mar 31, 2015)

cdhknives said:


> Links give me a permission error...


Please try again. I haven't figured out the strange picture posting yet.


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## Wierd Harold (Mar 31, 2015)

Wierd Harold said:


> Please try again. I haven't figured out the strange picture posting yet.


Trying something different.


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## caveBob (Mar 31, 2015)

Nice job there Harold, I like the way those came out. Bet it runs nice and cool and smooth now huh...


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## atlas ten (Mar 31, 2015)

Wierd Harold said:


> Trying something different.
> View attachment 98721
> 
> View attachment 98720


Definitely going to be doing this upgrade on both my atlas 10s.


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## cdhknives (Mar 31, 2015)

Got them.  Nice!  Thanks!  I really NEED this now, see next message:


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## cdhknives (Mar 31, 2015)

I guess I missed something while cleaning up this lathe and bringing it back into service.  I'm fairly certain this shaft was smooth when I cleaned out all the hardened grease.  It has been slinging more and more black grease...it goes in red (Mobil 1 synthetic axle grease) and comes out black and of significantly lower viscoscity.  They are definitely getting warm...even hot to the touch these days and that was not happening 6 months ago.

Some measurements for ya...with my harbor freight micrometer:

Shaft nominal diameter: 0.750"
Diameter of raised lip: 0.752"
Diameter under bearing: 0.742"

Nothing obvious on the bearing needles except a single line near the bottom of the picture where it is matte, not shiny.  The inside of the housing is ROUGH.  Ugly rough.  Pics:


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## cdhknives (Mar 31, 2015)

WH, what material is that?  Aluminum?  Sealed bearings don't wear the housing, so Al would be much easier and faster to machine on a dying lathe!


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## Wierd Harold (Apr 1, 2015)

cdhknives said:


> WH, what material is that?  Aluminum?  Sealed bearings don't wear the housing, so Al would be much easier and faster to machine on a dying lathe!


Yes they are 6061 that I had on hand. They are probably a built little heavier then needed but they have worked great for 2 years now. Here is info on the bearings I used.




WH


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## cdhknives (Apr 1, 2015)

I did a quick ACAD sketch at lunch...look reasonable?  2" wide may be a problem with spacing between the 2 groove and 4 groove pulley.


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## cdhknives (Apr 1, 2015)

I added a few dims...


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## Wierd Harold (Apr 1, 2015)

cdhknives said:


> I did a quick ACAD sketch at lunch...look reasonable?  2" wide may be a problem with spacing between the 2 groove and 4 groove pulley.
> 
> Your measurements are reasonably close to mine. I am actually at 2.18 wide and 2.25 diameter, but like I said I thought I was a going a little big. The one thing you have to watch is that the center relief groove
> leaves enough clearance for the "C" shaped carrier in the back of the "C" to allow for belt adjusting. I am showing 2.6" between the faces of the two pulleys so plenty of room there. I mostly did it as a cut and try as I had a spare assembly to play with.
> ...


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## cdhknives (Apr 2, 2015)

Cleaned it all well, greased it heavily, reassembled the old parts, and kept pumping in the grease every 5 minutes or so as I worked...aside from having to stop every 5-10 minutes to wipe the drips off before they went flying, it worked.  The bearing was only a bit warm and I got a good start on new bearing carriers.  Bar profiled, 2 units parted off, and one drilled 1/4" for a pilot.  Tonight's goal is getting both drilled to 3/4", switching to the 4 jaw, and starting the boring to size.  Bearings and shaft due in tomorrow afternoon.  It would be nice to have this ready to assemble by that time!


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## Round in circles (Apr 3, 2015)

cdhknives said:


> Got them.  Nice!  Thanks!  I really NEED this now, see next message:




  The bearing surfaces for the needle rollers is usually a precision one both on the shaft and the housing the needles should also be a really good fit .  The carrier cage should have no oval holes or over sized ones & very little end float along the needles length

I'm running several scenarios through my mind to sort out my well worn ( no lubrication in times past ??)  top pulley cross shaft & both of the phosphor bronze  bearings which get oiled at the start of every session of work and several times in between start and end of a job .

I'm just thinking out loud here , anyone can come in & make suggestions that may improve things .

As I don't have a mill , just an ancient lathe and a small well worn drill press I'm  beginning to believe I'll go for buying some drill rod of the correct size for the shaft  as it saves trying to turn anything accurately over any decent length .( mine is about 19 inches long )
Then make a set of two identical simple steel carrier tubes ( using some tube I already have perhaps if I'm lucky ) to take the new sealed ball bearing outer bearing size .

Perhaps locate the shaft with circlips either  side of the bearings and also locate the bearings in the carrier  tubes with circlips ether side /end of the tubes  .  If you use four bearings on the shaft (one at each end of each tube ) the radial and end loads  will be next to nothing so should allow a fairly thin wall  (1/4 " ??? ) around the outer bearing edges , this would negate you having to turn down a pair of big billets of steel . Of course using Locktite to glue the bearings as well in the oil free tubes as well would be a good  " belt and braces " solution as well )

Setting the complete carriers & bearing ...
All you need is a slightly shouldered end on all the bolts to locate into a small holes drilled in the tubes as there is not going to be a massive load on the shaft , you could even weld drilled out nuts to the tube & use those for the locating holes or drill and tap the tubes .... Locktite a short head drilled bolt in the holes ( short enough to clear the shaft inside the tubes and use the drilled heads as the locating slots .   It would be fairly easy to accurately scribe the diametrical lines where the holes go .


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## cdhknives (Apr 3, 2015)

WH, were your bearings slip fit or pressed in?  I was aiming for a light press fit but only hit that once...the other 3 are tight but slip fits...


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## Wierd Harold (Apr 3, 2015)

cdhknives said:


> WH, were your bearings slip fit or pressed in?  I was aiming for a light press fit but only hit that once...the other 3 are tight but slip fits...


I was aiming for a light press fit as well and managed fine on three of them but the fourth one just slid in and could be pulled out with your finger. I gave it a light coat of Loctite and put it in and it was pretty much the same as the other three. Been fine for two years now.
WH


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## cdhknives (Apr 7, 2015)

I'm finally back up and running...thanks for the help guys!

For anyone looking to duplicate my design in the CAD drawing, I had clearance issues with my bearing carrier.  I had to grind out flats (love that Coote 2x72 belt grinder!) on the bottom of the carriers...about 1" wide instead of the shown 5/8" width to clear and allow wiggle room.  The arms of the jackshaft mount are 3/4" wide and only allow about 1-3/4" diameter parts to be mounted...1-5/8" would be a safe design diameter for the center 1" wide portion of the carrier.    I would not turn the center 1" wide overall either, it would get awfully thin near the bearing inner seating lip.  Don't go wider overall either.  It already required moving the motor over about 1/2" to align the pulleys.  Narrower bearings would help, but I used 1/2" bearings due to availability.

Another suprise...there is a 1/8"x1/2" Woodruff key in the middle of the shaft under the 4 step cone pulley.  Be prepared to add this key if you are replacing the shaft...mine was beyond realistic salvaging and I had a "Sunday Afternoon Surprise" key to work around.  These things never crop up when a tool store is open!

Finally, expect to reuse the collar on the right side.  The 2 step pulley will retain the shaft on the left end, but something to retain the shaft on the right end is also needed so the old collar was brought back.


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## wa5cab (Apr 7, 2015)

cdhknives,

Last September, I wrote that your Serial Number 003825 could have been built 1941.  Don't know where my brain was that night, but the first QC models were built in 1947.  So yours was probably built around 1949.

On the current subject (Woodruff keys in the countershaft under the 4-step or cone pulley), I assume this means that there is a keyway broached in the pulley and that it is visible from both ends of the pulley?  The June, 1966 10F parts list does not show a key.  How many other owners who have disassembled their countershafts have found a key here?


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## cdhknives (Apr 7, 2015)

Correct, there is a keyway visible on both ends of the countershaft 4 step cone pulley.  It is 1/8" nominal width, and 1/16" depth.  At least a 1/16" drill bit was able to slide under (quickie 'feeler gauge' while assembled to figure out how deep to cut a keyway into my new shaft) but 5/64th was not.  Mine is basically now converted to a square key about 3/4" long and 1/8" square in place of the old 1/8"x3/4" Woodruff key.  If I get motivated I'll change it back later...shaft material is easy and cheap enough.


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## pdentrem (Apr 7, 2015)

I found a key when I had removed the shaft etc to clean it up and refit. I never got around to replace the bearings but it was on the short list prior to my selling the lathe.
Pierre


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## Wierd Harold (Apr 7, 2015)

wa5cab said:


> cdhknives,
> 
> On the current subject (Woodruff keys in the countershaft under the 4-step or cone pulley), I assume this means that there is a keyway broached in the pulley and that it is visible from both ends of the pulley?  The June, 1966 10F parts list does not show a key.  How many other owners who have disassembled their countershafts have found a key here?



I have four countershaft assembly's and they all have keyways. The only parts diagram I have that shows it is the "Atlas Lathe 12 3986 12x36 Bench.pdf" which appears to be a Clausing printing.

HWF


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## wa5cab (Apr 7, 2015)

Harold,

Yes, all of the part manuals for the so-called Commercial 12" models show a #3 Woodruff key for the cone pulley.  But the two pulleys on the Commercial countershaft assembly are both cantilevered with the countershaft bracket between them.  With the early 12" countershaft assembly, it would be impossible to have a key in the cone pulley unless you assembled the shaft with key into the pulley with the pulley held between the bracket arms and then pressed in the bushings.  Then it would be impossible to non-destructively disassemble.  With the 9" and 10" countershaft assemblies, you can remove the spindle, pulleys and bearings from the hanger, remove the right hand bearing, and slide the pulley off the end of the spindle, leaving the key standing proud.  Are all four of the countershaft assemblies that you have for 10"?

One other thing that I ran into - Machinery's Handbook, 21st Edition, Revised, only lists ANSI Standard Woodruff Keys (and British Standard).  These have three or four digit numbers.  Various Atlas parts lists show #3, #5 and #15 Woodruff Keys (and probably others).  Does anyone have a chart showing the dimensions of Woodruff Keys with one and two digit numbers?


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## Wierd Harold (Apr 7, 2015)

wa5cab said:


> Harold,
> Are all four of the countershaft assemblies that you have for 10"?



I have 1) 10D H, 1) 10F H, 1) 10F V and 1) I bought off of ebay advertised as a "10 H

HWF


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## pdentrem (Apr 7, 2015)

Robert
I found Woodruff keys listed in the Machinery's Handbook 17th edition page 869 onwards. On pg 871 Table #1 "Woodruff Keys, Key-slots and Keyways - SAE Standard", there is a column heading of American Standard Key Numbers and the following column is Manufactures' Numbers. The #1 is 204, 3 is 404, 5 is 405 and 15 is 808.
Pierre


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## wa5cab (Apr 8, 2015)

Thanks.


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## wa5cab (Apr 8, 2015)

Wierd Harold said:


> I have 1) 10D H, 1) 10F H, 1) 10F V and 1) I bought off of ebay advertised as a "10 H
> HWF


Harold,

How did you ID the first Horizontal as being from a 10D?  Reason that I ask is that based on both the 2nd version of the MOLO and period catalogs in my collection, the horizontal countershaft came out with or at the same time as the 10F.


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## cdhknives (Apr 8, 2015)

My bearing holders ended up looking like this:


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## Wierd Harold (Apr 8, 2015)

wa5cab said:


> Harold,
> 
> How did you ID the first Horizontal as being from a 10D?  Reason that I ask is that based on both the 2nd version of the MOLO and period catalogs in my collection, the horizontal countershaft came out with or at the same time as the 10F.


It was an assumption based on that I got the lathe from the original owners daughter and the lathe was still on the same bench and same shop since new. I suppose it could have been changed at some point or possibly started life as a Unit Plan and upgraded over the years. I call it a Model D because that is how it looks, there are no tags or labels on it.
HWF


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## wa5cab (Apr 8, 2015)

Harold,

OK.  Just curious.

Robert D.


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