# Are tools investments ?



## mmcmdl (Mar 5, 2018)

I believe good quality tools are great investments . Most have bottomed out on price nowadays with all the plant closures and moves south of the border . Now , as the same  as years back , I would spend that extra money on QUALITY top name tools . My money would possibly get that .05 percent interest in the bank . Uh , big deal . I bought the tools I needed to do the work . I maintained them and I'm able to sell them for what I paid for them . My Starretts , Brown and Sharpes , Top Quality Imports from years ago have made me $$$$$ and are easily worth what I paid for them new . I am not trying to stress a point to the newbies on the site but you have to think about longevity of the tools . A lot of the stuff these days are throw away tools . Cheap , use them once , re-sale value = 0 . A $500 top quality tool purchased 10 years ago will sell for $500 today if they are properly maintained  . At .05 % interest a year , that $500 bucks might have netted you 10 bucks ( of course minus taxes ) . Your cost for the tool for 10 years use was 5 bucks . Just sayin , look long term and try to figure out what suits you best . I just can-not understand why people waste their money on cheap junk tools just to move up and upgrade a year later . Maybe it's just my thoughts but lets here your opinions . I am an active machinist , looking to help apprentices or people willing to learn this trade . It's an expensive trade no doubt . You will pay the price of a new car just to get in the door of most places , and most won't accept HF crap or big box store stuff . Let's here from the " old timers " on this thought .


----------



## chips&more (Mar 5, 2018)

I echo your thoughts. Only thing is, my children don’t understand. All they know is computers. It will be one heck of an estate sale. And I’ll be banging my head in the box!


----------



## Nogoingback (Mar 5, 2018)

I think the best reason to buy a quality tool is simply because it will do the job properly.  Even if a cheap tool gets the job done, it's usually
not as well and is annoying every time you pick it up.  So, there are functional reasons for owning good tools, as well as the satifsfaction
of using (and owning) them.   Junk tools are not conducive to craftsmanship.

I'm not sure about tools as investments.  Maybe it works out that way, but for lots of tools I'm not convinced.  I've been looking at a
lot of tools on eBay recently, and if you look at selling (not asking) prices, I don't think a lot of money is being made.  For most tools,
there are just too many out there to support high prices.  But hey, that makes for  buying opportunities!


----------



## mmcmdl (Mar 5, 2018)

The east coast is kind of crazy right now . A huge up swing in manufacturing and no machinists to be found . CNC operators everywhere but no machinists . Sad .


----------



## mmcmdl (Mar 5, 2018)

chips&more said:


> I echo your thoughts. Only thing is, my children don’t understand. All they know is computers. It will be one heck of an estate sale. And I’ll be banging my head in the box!


And I will echo that !


----------



## 34_40 (Mar 5, 2018)

I don't think of myself as an "old-timer"..  just made 60 y.o., but I have always tried to buy the best that I could afford.  I used to turn wrenches for a living and when times were good I'd buy Snap-On, when things were lean, I'd buy off the "other" trucks.  Craftsman was good for the home shop.  Now that I'm learning more machine works, I prefer older B&S / Starrett.  Guys buyin' HF only to do it again later.. just won't make sense now, or later.  And there is definitely somethin' to working with a quality tool it will just bring a smile to your face.


----------



## benmychree (Mar 5, 2018)

Yes, tools can be sold for what was paid for them many years ago, but that does not consider inflation; something that I bought for $100 in the 60s or 70s is still worth the bucks, but the bucks are only worth about 1/4th or 1/5th of what they were worth then.  Supply and demand is another factor; I look on e bay and see a multitude of 0-1 and 1-2 micrometers, and what I see is "dead men's tools", a multitude of passed machinists had tools that are in oversupply because there are so few machinist jobs left in today's economy.  In today's market, vernier tools, especially those with 25 division verneir scales are practically given away, 50 division tools sell a little better, but everyone (seemingly) wants electronic, those tools that cannot make up their minds on which thousandth (or half) to settle on.
Personally, I have Starrett tools, but I like B&S a bit more, but they were not well set up with western distributors, as Starrett was, so until e bay came along there was little opportunity to buy B&S.


----------



## C-Bag (Mar 5, 2018)

benmychree said:


> Yes, tools can be sold for what was paid for them many years ago, but that does not consider inflation; something that I bought for $100 in the 60s or 70s is still worth the bucks, but the bucks are only worth about 1/4th or 1/5th of what they were worth then.  Supply and demand is another factor; I look on e bay and see a multitude of 0-1 and 1-2 micrometers, and what I see is "dead men's tools", a multitude of passed machinists had tools that are in oversupply because there are so few machinist jobs left in today's economy.  In today's market, vernier tools, especially those with 25 division verneir scales are practically given away, 50 division tools sell a little better, but everyone (seemingly) wants electronic, those tools that cannot make up their minds on which thousandth (or half) to settle on.
> Personally, I have Starrett tools, but I like B&S a bit more, but they were not well set up with western distributors, as Starrett was, so until e bay came along there was little opportunity to buy B&S.



+1 ! I totally agree. I'm also a B&S guy from early on. I was lucky to become friends with an old guy who made his living going to swap meets through the 70's and 80's until he died. Whenever he'd find some nice set of B&S or Starrett he'd get hold of me and likewise if I ran into something I thought he could resale. While I really appreciate fine tools I also know the limits of the job at hand. 

When I was making my living twisting wrenches I bought Proto, Snap-On and Mac. But I know my poor wife isn't going to get a fraction of what I originally bought them for. The guys who go to yard and estate sales only want it if they can steal for penny's on the dollar. Because they aren't in the trade. Those guys buy new off the trucks. I see guys retiring selling their tools on CL and most of the boxes are 1/4 of what they paid and they have to part them out and still only get a fraction of the crazy prices you'll pay on a truck. I too have been struck several times while I wade through a guy's lifetime accumulation of tools at a sale by the realization of "dead men's tools". Made me feel bad for my wife, just until I found the next deal 

I have a tamale cart full of pro tools, but all my machine tools are PacRim because I'm not doing it for customers, I'm making projects for myself and working out of a two car garage. I'm able to turn out the stuff I need for way less than if I tried to have a machine shop do it(if I could find one), And because they are hobby sized machines I'll be able to sell them for what I paid, probably more. And I bought a 9x20 lathe fully tooled and a decently tooled RF-30, both for less than a new Chinese clone of the RF30 goes for at HF. Granted they both needed work, but I was a machining noob and they have taught me a lot.

Meanwhile big Old Iron production lathes and mills in LA and SF are sitting for basically scrap prices. I get what the OP is saying, but in my part of the world reality is somewhat different.


----------



## Bob Korves (Mar 6, 2018)

chips&more said:


> I echo your thoughts. Only thing is, my children don’t understand. All they know is computers. It will be one heck of an estate sale. And I’ll be banging my head in the box!


Dave, put me in your will, and I will put you in mine.  I think either of us would have to spread the inheritance around to people who could use it, due to lack of places to put more stuff.


----------



## projectnut (Mar 6, 2018)

I think you're being overly optimistic if you think you can sell a 30 year tool for the same price you bought it for, especially if you take inflation into account.  I have the sales brochures and reciepts for almost every machine and tool I've ever purchased.  The Sheldon MW-56-P lathe originally sold for $1650.00 in 1960.  That would equate to $13,816.00 in todays dollars.  The Bridgeport Series I machine originally sold for  $1,570.00 in 1972.  That would equate to $9,309.00 in todays dollars.
Nobody is going to pay those prices for a 50 or 60 year old machine regardless of the shape it's in.  The same is true of all the measuring tools.  Look at eBay.  It's full of high quality machines, and tools that are selling for a small fraction of their original cost.

You buy them for their quality, and the fact that if they're treated properly they will probably last a lifetime.  I still have Starrett, B&S, and Interapid micrometers, dial indicators, and  calipers I purchased in the 1980's.  They're in great shape and will probably be the only ones I'll ever need to buy.  There are several of the same tools currently for sale on eBay.  Some vendors are asking nearly new prices, but if you use the advanced search and include those that sold, I think you'll find on average they went for less than half of their original price.

ON EDIT:  The same is true, but even worst for mechanics tools.  Most Snap On tools on the used market go for about 10% of their original cost regardless of their condition.  Keep in mind the actual selling price may in no way be related to the asking price.


----------



## chips&more (Mar 6, 2018)

Bob Korves said:


> Dave, put me in your will, and I will put you in mine.  I think either of us would have to spread the inheritance around to people who could use it, due to lack of places to put more stuff.


Very nice gesture, but I’m not sure my family would agree. Even though they are totally clueless when they look at the stuff in my shop.


----------



## C-Bag (Mar 6, 2018)

I know this is going to be seen as some belly button gazing, but the whole idea of "investment" has kinda changed as far as I can understand. This is supposed to be a hobby site so when I hear investment I have gathered the impression over the varying forums I frequent that the hobbyist expects that his investment is going to be worth as much or more when and if they decide to sell whether to upgrade or just get out of the hobby. 

This is vastly different from a person either in the trade or business owner. They invest because they are going to make $$ with the tools so it helps with the return on investment. And they are usually keyed into the idea of depreciation. This in my world is not how it works for a hobby.

It makes me wonder if this has always been this way just because of that cited phenomenon of ownership inflated price or if Antiques Roadshow, eBay and all the spinoffs like Pickers etc just inflated it?

I see time and again where somebody who bought a machine tool like a South Bend or Atlas and has gone through it and painted it and is trying to sell it on CL for what they have into it. For me the price is more than I can buy a new machine, but I have no idea if the guy rebuilt it as far as scraping it in correctly or just made it look pretty. Just like buying a restored car I guess, it's all a crapshoot.


----------



## benmychree (Mar 6, 2018)

Just try to sell something on e bay for what you have paid for it; probably 95% of the time, (my uneducated guess) you will have taken a bath, unless you were there to buy when an object has been incorrectly listed, or some other fluke existed.
But then, it's all about buying and possessing; he who dies with the most wins!  Having said that, pity the person who has to dispose of it all !!


----------



## C-Bag (Mar 6, 2018)

I only seem to accumulate and not sell anything. Heaven knows I've tried. If it's not total trash it goes to Goodwill or somebody like it as I can't stand to have already discounted something to a rediculous level only to have somebody want to dicker in a yard sale. 

A friend of mine sells weird antiques on eBay and does really well. We were riding along in the car one day and I see him look at his phone and go wow! I asked and he said he'd gotten a small box with un posted cards for a nickel in a yard sale. On the auction it went for over $100. It's a stark example of why I have a permanent filter on eBay that only shows the "buy it now" listings.


----------



## BGHansen (Mar 6, 2018)

If you buy good used equipment or tools, you should come close to getting your money back.  Stuff depreciates to a low then hovers there as long as it works.  Caveat is how you dispose of it.  Have an auctioneer come in, you'll be paying a commission.

Buy new and you're looking at a 60% - 75% return on your money or less.  I bought a G0709 lathe 2 1/2 years ago for around $4500 delivered.  Added a taper attachment, 5-C collet closer, 1/64" increment set of 5-C collets, around 35 QCTP holders with boring bars/cutting tools, DRO, 8" set-tru chuck, etc.  Probably have $7500 into the lathe and accessories.  If I sold it as is, I'd start at $6500 and hope to get $6000.  I have a number of Starrett and Inerapid micrometers and indicators which were picked up for around 30% of new price.

Bruce


----------



## mmcmdl (Mar 6, 2018)

BGHansen said:


> If you buy good used equipment or tools, you should come close to getting your money back. Stuff depreciates to a low then hovers there as long as it works



Bruce , you hit the nail on the head . This is exactly what I meant !


----------



## David S (Mar 6, 2018)

This is a very interesting question, and I have never thought about it before.  I am a hobbyist and I purchase stuff to perform a task or tasks.  I buy stuff that I need when I can afford to.

And I am not too concerned about buying used stuff, although the only thing that I purchased used of any value was my Atlas 618 lathe some 50 years ago.  I guess I treat the things I buy that same as a car, which I consider a necessity and don't worry about its ultimate value.

Now regarding purchasing the best I can afford or that others would consider the best.  As a hobbyist with a limited budget, I would not be able to enjoy machining as much as I do, if I couldn't purchased less expensive imported tools, cutters etc.  There have been some good reviews on this site indicating that for the hobbyist, one can make very good purchases from Asia.

When the time comes that I can no longer use my shop....yikes not sure how to prepare for that, but probably should.

David


----------



## kd4gij (Mar 6, 2018)

If you use the tools for a living. Then they are an investment in your future, as you will get back many times your investment over the years.


----------



## dbq49 (Mar 6, 2018)

kd4gij said:


> If you use the tools for a living. Then they are an investment in your future, as you will get back many times your investment over the years.


Having both metal and woodworking tools, I find that when a tool goes down I still try to fix it.  Even my quality Milwaukee, Bosch, Makita electric tools are so old that I can no longer get parts.  Recently found a switch for a Bosch reciprocating saw on Ebay that E replacement parts said was no longer available, you bet I ordered it and is now working again.  Parts are always the problems when you have tools.  Yes, parting out tools and parts COULD make you some return but you need to find a buyer.  I told my grandson that these were going his but at 10 it means little.  At every he visits, we try some welding, turning, operating a back hoe and again when your young it is all fun.  It is my hope that I live long enough to teach him the importance of these "work" tools.  I keep showing him what CAD can do and how it will make products for him when he gets a 3D printer.  So much teaching, so few years left.


----------



## Silverbullet (Mar 6, 2018)

I'm a tool collector , last summer I needed money since I havent done any resale on mowers . I had an old wood workers bench with the two wood vises for hand planning and more. Well I paid $50. For it about thirty years ago I sold it for $1,850 . I'd say tools are good investments my wife loves the three percent she sees hates my buying tools . Who makes more her bank or mine. She just don't see the big picture. Sold a singer 29 sewing machine for $750 I paid $125. About 5 years ago.


----------



## dfsmoto (Mar 6, 2018)

I'm 33 and have tools from all over the world, cheap, expensive, used, antique, made well, made bad, and home made.  If you know how to use them and use your brain they all are priceless.  
If you are focused on getting all your money back out of them someday with the vast amount of stuff out there, I think you would be greatly disappointed!


----------



## magicniner (Mar 7, 2018)

I've only ever bought tools on the basis of what they will do for me and how long it's reasonable to expect them to continue doing that.


----------



## Bob Korves (Mar 7, 2018)

magicniner said:


> I've only ever bought tools on the basis of what they will do for me and how long it's reasonable to expect them to continue doing that.


And I TRY to guess how many times I might use the tool in the time I have it.  Some tools are too cool (and/or insanely low priced) to pass up even if I don't really have a planned use for them.  I am getting much better at turning down tools and machines that take up large amounts of shop space unless they are really useful.  Smaller stuff, no such restraint...


----------



## projectnut (Mar 7, 2018)

There may be situations where buying low and selling high does happen.  However I don't think that's the norm unless you're selling antiques or rare coins.  In order to buy low you have to find someone who just wants to get rid of the item or has no interest in researching the value and reselling the item. 

BG Hanson mentioned asking having $7,500.00 into a machine, offering it for sale at $6,500.00 and possibly taking $6,000.00.  There's currently an identical 5 year old model that's fairly well equipped being offered for sale on eBay with a starting price of $4,000.00. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Grizzly-G0...933796?hash=item4b3ada52e4:g:~mQAAOSwuIRamHct

 It will be interesting to see if the machine goes for more or less than the estimated value of his machine.

The current retail price of the same machine is $5125.00 plus shipping.  That doesn't include the taper attachment, collet closer, or collets.

Personally I feel offering a maximum of 50% of the cost of a new machine or tool is the absolute top of the line when buying used for a couple reasons.  First off regardless of condition there is no guarantee.  The machine could fall to pieces on the way home and the buyer would have no recourse.  When paying full price from a retailer I would expect at least a year or longer warranty.  When buying from a private party it's pretty much "Buyer Beware".

Secondly almost every time I've gone to purchase a used tool or machine I've literally found multiples of the same item available within a few hundred miles.  Most have come from professional shops that aren't emotionally attached to the machines.  The prices reflect the fact that they are used, and are being sold at or near market value.


----------



## ericc (Mar 7, 2018)

I have a fairly strict definition of investment.  It is something that has a clear value and is quickly exchangeable.  In other words, it is liquid.  Also, it has a narrow bid-ask spread.  That means that timeshares, most jewelry, some real estate, are not investments.  Some people say that financial instruments that don't have natural production, for example, gold and bitcoin, are not investments, even though they meet the above criteria.  Note that poor performance when accounting for inflation does not make an instrument not an investment.  For example, treasuries perform poorly after inflation, but only the most addled curmudgeon would say that these are not investments.  Back to tools; they fail the bid-ask spread criterion.  I still buy them.  I buy lots of them .  A good tool is: 1. one you have, 2. one you can use, and 3. one that you have used to make something useful (not just another tool).


----------



## Alan H. (Mar 7, 2018)

Are tools investments?   For me they are no where close.  

We might get a good deal here and there but tools are typically a negative investment for the hobbyist.   Yes, they have value but they are not an investment. 

I gladly accept this and enjoy my hobbies.


----------



## Nogoingback (Mar 7, 2018)

It seems like we're talking about two different questions here.  The thread is called "Are tools investments?".  That suggests (to me anyway) they
are they USUALLY good investments.  I don't think that's the case.  But the thread seems to have morphed into the question of "can a person
make money on tools?", and of course the answer is yes.  But, as with anything "collectable", it has to be the right tool, at the right time,
and purchased at a fire sale price to begin with.  And more to the point, for them to actually be an investment, the buyer has to be able to
predict, with some certainty that they will be worth more in the future. Otherwise, a person is just buying tools and getting lucky down the
road.

This is pretty much a supply and demand question.  Most tools are built in large quantities, creating large supply.  Unless they become
extremely rare for some reason, or demand is high,  they aren't going up in value.


----------



## Uncle Buck (Mar 7, 2018)

Alan H said:


> Are tools investments?   For me they are no where close.
> 
> We might get a good deal here and there but tools are typically a negative investment for the hobbyist.   Yes, they have value but they are not an investment.
> 
> ...


I totally agree! I have tons of machines and tools and my shop stuff means a great deal to me. That said, I would never call any of my machines or tools an investment. (My opinion is speaking strictly as a home mechanic/machinist, and not someone making their living with machines and tools) 

I would say this though, if you compare your machinist, mechanic, or wood working hobbies to say golf, or many other such pursuits the return on the dollars invested in the hobby would be much better with quality tools and machines than many other hobbies. That said it still does not mean that your shop is an investment if its use is purely for your enjoyment.


----------



## Aaron_W (Mar 7, 2018)

I think you are being highly optimistic thinking you can get your money back selling your tools. If that were the case I doubt many if us hobbyists would have many of the tools we have.
I bought a used Criterion boring head recently. Yes, I'm pretty sure I can probably get my $50 back no problem, but new those seem to run around $300-400. Whomever sold it certainly didn't get their investment back in cash, but based on the wear it has I'm sure they got it back many times over in the work it provided.

I try to buy tools that are appropriate for my use. Buying cheap tools can be a false economy as you have to keep replacing them, but so can buying tools of a quality well beyond your need.


----------



## BGHansen (Mar 10, 2018)

projectnut said:


> There may be situations where buying low and selling high does happen.  However I don't think that's the norm unless you're selling antiques or rare coins.  In order to buy low you have to find someone who just wants to get rid of the item or has no interest in researching the value and reselling the item.
> 
> BG Hanson mentioned asking having $7,500.00 into a machine, offering it for sale at $6,500.00 and possibly taking $6,000.00.  There's currently an identical 5 year old model that's fairly well equipped being offered for sale on eBay with a starting price of $4,000.00.
> 
> ...



Don't know many of us who've bought a G0709 lathe and were disappointed.  Looks to be 16 additional BXA tool holders and a somewhat kluged together tool post grinder in addition to the stock G0709 hardware.  Tool holders would be about $250 from CDCO, grinder maybe $250?  So around $5500 invested into the machine and asking $4000.  Math is the seller is looking for about a 70% return on their "investment" (not including eBay's 10% seller's fee).  Probably a fair price but not a smoking hot deal.  No bids yet with 14 watchers.

Bruce


----------



## cathead (Mar 10, 2018)

I have some old machines that were pretty well run down when I got them so the price was low.  
They have been improved upon considerably and have invested time and materials in them.  
I expect that if I sell them, they will command a higher price than when I bought them.  I guess it
is all on the totem pole of machinery as to where you want to start in this hobby.


----------



## projectnut (Mar 12, 2018)

Just an update on the Grizzly lathe for sale on eBay.  The original listing expired without a single bid.  The seller has relisted it as a "Buy It Now"  The new asking price was $4200.00 or best offer.   When I checked again this morning the asking price has been lowered back to $4000.00 or best offer.

The original listing was for 5 days the new listing is for 30 days.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Grizzly-G0...335577?hash=item4b3c5dec99:g:~mQAAOSwuIRamHct

I plan to keep an eye on it to see if it sells and if so what the final price is.


----------



## MrWhoopee (Mar 17, 2018)

I never considered my tools to be investments, but they have done better than the things I did consider investments.


----------



## projectnut (Mar 22, 2018)

The listing for the G0709 has ended.  The seller did indeed get the asking price of $4,000.00.  

On the other hand I just bought a Black Diamond BW-65 drill grinder in like new condition.  I doubt it was ever used for anything other than demonstration purposes.  This particular model was built for the military, but is comparable to the BW 70 sold today.  A new BW 70 costs a little over $8700.00 today. This is a slightly different than todays models in that it's 3 phase, only has collets down to the letter X, and number collets down to 30. The newer machines have numbers 1-52, and letters A-Z.  I paid less than 5% of the price of a new machine.   Apparently someone didn't get 70% of their original cost back.


----------



## Uglydog (Mar 23, 2018)

Dad taught me that it didn't matter how good/expensive your tool or machine is, it has absolutely no value unless it is in use.

Daryl
MN


----------



## Bob Korves (Mar 23, 2018)

Uglydog said:


> Dad taught me that it didn't matter how good/expensive your tool or machine is, it has absolutely no value unless it is in use.
> 
> Daryl
> MN


Tools are also worthless if they are not available when you need them.  Sometimes they wait for a while until use.


----------



## Buffalo21 (Mar 23, 2018)

I've never bought anything in my life, with the concept of what I could get for it later. I don't or can't sell anything. My listing on CL or newspaper ad, always say price is firm, and always they try to get it for less and I throw them out of the shop. I has chiselers and tire kickers, when the ad say $600 firm, its $600. Why bother me and why bother to show up, its not leaving the shop for a dime less.

I had a tig welder for sale for $1200, the guy showed up with $1175, I still have the welder.

My **** poor sales attitude is probably why I still own 16 cars (only 2 on the road) after the last trip to the scrapper  and about 22 welders. I told the last low baller, I'd dig a hole and bury it, before it sells for less than the asking price.

If I buy something, it because I want it or need it, with no thought of resale value.


----------

