# Super Noob question. First time milling



## Threadkiller (Nov 28, 2019)

Happy Thanksgiving everyone. 

So quick backstory. I have zero, nada, less than no experience using a milling machine. I am really interested in machining so of course I wanted to get a mill; a Bridgeport namely. I ended up "settling" but not really settling since its an awesome little machine, on a Rong Fu RF-31 round column mill. The Bridgeport just wasnt in the cards at the moment financially and space wise. I am just super excited to finally have a machine. I got a good deal on it and it came with some accessories and "tooling" (parallels, collets, clamp kit, etc.) I put tooling in quotes because I did not have great luck with it this evening, my first time actually using the machine. The end mills that came with the machine are the typical Titanium nitride coated set of HSS 2 and 4 flute end mills that come in the wooden box. They seem fine for aluminum but once I broke out the steel they didnt seem too happy. I got quite a bit of chatter even taking small cuts ~.010. These end mills were used but extremely lightly so I think theyre still "sharp". Anyway, thats one little problem Im having but onto the real problem. I checked my machine and trammed in the vise and it all checks out within .002 on the Y full travel the length of the vise. I checked the top of the vise and the inside where you actually place your work. I was trying to mill a piece of flat steel bar I need to mill .25" off one side. So after multiple passes taking small cuts and getting tons of chatter I finally stopped as it was getting late and I dont want to wake up my wife since the chatter was so bad. Upon analyzing my passes its as if the flat bar was tilted in the vise on the Y axis. There is a visible slope between the milled surface and the hot rolled surface. After I saw that I pulled the bar out and measured, sure enough it is .015 bigger on one side than the other. I pulled my parallels out and checked them thinking maybe I grabbed two different sizes but no they check out. I guess its possible when I clamped the bar down that one of the parallels moved or something but I just wanted to check with the pros on here if theres any advice or anything to look out for other than what I mentioned. Again I couldnt keep going and try to figure it out since its late. Sorry for the extremely long winded post, just trying to go over everything. I think my first problem is I watch too much This Old Tony where he makes everything look super easy lol. Any advice, criticism or tips anyone wants to throw my way would be greatly appreciated.


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## darkzero (Nov 28, 2019)

Congrats!

You didn't mention what size endmill & the spindle RPM you were running. Sounds like you may have been running them too fast. Some of those import box sets can be decent & some of them can be junk. I have a set but mine are uncoated. I don't use them often, they have worked fine for me, but I run them on the slow side compared to my higher quality end mills.

You mentioned hot rolled. Mill scale is tough on cutters. Try either grinding off the scale before milling or take a deep enough cut to hog through it if the dimensions allow.


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## ttabbal (Nov 28, 2019)

It's possible that your work lifts in the vise. The amount being 0.015" would be a LOT. Use an indicator and verify the amount of lift. More than a couple of thou would be more than I would like. Tap it down with a dead blow hammer with a soft face. The parallels should be snug. Make sure you clamp in the center of the vise. 

Look for some videos on squaring material. Using the mill finish as a reference is going to lead to bad parts. There are no guarantees that the surfaces are even close to straight. Making a block square to 0.005" or better is a great exercise for learning setups and cutting. It is also where many projects start.


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## mikey (Nov 28, 2019)

I read your post several times and am having trouble sorting out what you're doing. You're trying to mill the side of a flat steel bar so I assume you mean a bar that is longer than it is wide and your cutting on one of the long sides, is that right? If so, in which direction was your table moving in relationship to the cutter? Was the table moving from right to left or left to right? Surprisingly, this matters. You might look up conventional vs climb milling.

What was your speed? Were you feeding manually or with power feed? If with power feed, any idea on the rate in inches per minute? All this matters, too. Mild steel has a cutting speed of about 100 SFM. For example, if you used a 1/2" diameter end mill then your rpm should be somewhere around 764 rpm. Were you going faster?

I have an RF-31 and it will go through mild steel bar with no problems. I use mostly Niagara Cutter end mills, though. If you could give us more details we might be of more use to you.


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## darkzero (Nov 28, 2019)

mikey said:


> I read your post several times and am trouble sorting out what you're doing.



Admittedly I just skimmed through it. I had trouble reading the post but it's late & my eyes are tired so I didn't try again. I probably shouldn't have even replied but when I saw the chatter part I immediately thought he may have been running the spindle too fast.

TK, not to criticize but it will help posting with paragraphs rather than one single long one. It's ok to make long posts with detail but it will make it a lot easier for the guys to help if we can read your post easier.


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## mikey (Nov 28, 2019)

mikey said:


> I read your post several times and am having trouble sorting out what you're doing.



Thanks, Will. I corrected my grammar.


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## grzdomagala (Nov 28, 2019)

You definitely must do something about chatter - select correct spindle rpm, use cutting oil, maybe try another material (something of known quality - "scrapbinium" may be cheap, but has tendency to destroy tools) Heavy chatter may pull milling cutter from the spindle - even if the collet is tight - resulting in uneven depth of cut

Wysłane z mojego SM-N950F przy użyciu Tapatalka


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## ThinWoodsman (Nov 28, 2019)

I dunno, maybe it's being run too fast, but it sounds an awul lot like workholding problems. 
Gotta whack on the part with a hammer when seating, as ttabbal said.
Also the description of the setup sounds to me like a long bar sitting on parallels in the vise, with a few inches sticking out on either side. If that's the case, then the part will definitely move once the cutter gets to one edge. Need to put something under the parts that stick out from the vise, like a machinist jack or even just a bolt stuck into a t-nut.


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## RobertB (Nov 28, 2019)

Holding hot rolled flat bar can be an adventure. It frequently is not flat across the wide side, being somewhat "cupped" and the edges are not square to the flats. This makes it move as you are clamping it down, As the others have pointed out, snug your vise up but don't crank down on it, tap the part down against the parallels with a hammer, tighten the vise firmly and then see if you can move your parallels. If they are loose repeat the above steps until the part is tight against them.


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## ThinWoodsman (Nov 28, 2019)

RobertB said:


> It frequently is not flat across the wide side, being somewhat "cupped" and the edges are not square to the flats. ... As the others have pointed out, snug your vise up but don't crank down on it,



Ah, that makes me think of a couple other things as well. One would be to first square the sides that are going to be against the jaws of the vise for the main cut, using that trick where you put a ball bearing between the moving jaw and the part. The other is to run an indicator over the part before and after tightening the vise, to determine if you are overtightening the vise and bowing the part.


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## higgite (Nov 28, 2019)

Like others, I’m not exactly sure what it is that you’re doing. A photo of the work piece orientation in the vise and telling us the actual depth of cut and width of cut might be helpful to help you analyze the problem.

Tom

Edit: After seeing post #14, I have pared my original response down to the only part that turned out to be useful.


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## markba633csi (Nov 28, 2019)

I trick I use when holding uneven pieces in the vise is to use a popsicle stick between the part and one jaw; it squishes and takes up the gap.
Use good quality USA made end mills. Many of the import ones dull very quickly. Use cutting fluid and slow speed for steel.
Sometimes you can find amazing deals on new/used endmill lots on Ebay- I've gotten many a good bargain there
Mark


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## benmychree (Nov 28, 2019)

Another cure for work lifting off the paralells is the use of vise hold downs, available from Starrett and others, they work well for work with work that is held with the wide dimension horizontal, for work with the narrow side up, I use  a piece of round bar between the movable jaw and the work.


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## Threadkiller (Nov 28, 2019)

Man you guys are awesome. Sorry for the long paragraph. I was exhausted and just rambling on.

I’ve attached a picture of my setup. You could see the angle in the picture. As far as the speed I’m not sure what the machine is at. It’s not at a super high rpm. I have to check. 

The work piece is 1”thick flat bar. 

I was using rapid tap cutting oil.


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## mikey (Nov 28, 2019)

Okay, now its clear what you're doing and why you're having problems. Here are some comments:

Not so sure if that vise is all that accurate. The Angle Lock design is better in that the moving jaw pushes the part down instead of allowing to rock up. You might look into a better vise.
The edges of your work piece are very rough and uneven. You need to square the whole thing up before it will sit flush to the jaws and parallels, then you can take cuts that will be flat enough to measure. Do you know how to square a part?


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## ThinWoodsman (Nov 29, 2019)

mikey said:


> Not so sure if that vise is all that accurate.


That looks like the bridgeport vise that came with my mill. Perhaps not optimal, but suitable enough for learning. I had to make new jaws for mine though, as the old ones were pretty chewed up. Finally replace it with a Kurt, which I will agree is a huge improvement - but I wouldn't dismiss the old vise out of hand.


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## RobertB (Nov 29, 2019)

ThinWoodsman said:


> That looks like the bridgeport vise that came with my mill.


It's similar to a Bridgeport, but the Bridgeport has a "rounded rectangle" base that sits atop the swivel not the round lobes this one has. It also appears to be missing a jaw. You are correct that it can be made to work, it just takes more care and finesse to ensure the work remains tight to the parallels. I would also remove the swivel base and attach it directly to the table and use larger diameter bolts than the ones currently holding it to the table. (the ones holding the vise to the swivel base look to be the correct size)


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## mikey (Nov 29, 2019)

ThinWoodsman said:


> ... I wouldn't dismiss the old vise out of hand.



I wasn't dismissing it out of hand. I was pointing out that vises like this that have a horizontal linear push from the screw can, *and usually do*, push a part up as pressure is applied. This is especially true if the edges of the part that contact the jaws are not flat and square as is the case here. Quite often, you can pound a part down onto the parallels with a hammer in a vise like this and one of the parallels will still slip. I am not guessing about this but perhaps your experiences differs. If so, do tell.


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## Mitch Alsup (Nov 30, 2019)

a) did you make sure the vise is "in tram"--not just the back jaw face, but also the back jaw top and the inner vise "ways" where the parallels rest. Any errors here will show up directly on the part, after machining. Is the spindle tram to the table? both directions? I had to disassembly my vise and clean it within an inch of its life to get the vise to tram square.
b) you need to file the burrs from sawing off the part before installing it in the jaws of the vise--so the part can rest on the parallels and be evenly clamped by the vise. Burrs may not allow the part to rest on the parallels, or to be evenly clamped on the faces of jaws.
c) after clamping the part in the vaise, hit it on the top with a hammer (several places) to seat the part and the jaws to the ways of the vise. You can get 1-3 thou of rise just clamping a part in the jaws.
d) you can measure the flatness of the part in the jaws after clamping with the DI in the spindle.
e) as a part comes out of the saw, none of the sides are flat enough to be accurately machined. So, we square up the part by machining one surface, then square up the other sides by using the first machined surface as a reference in the back jaw or on the ways of the vise. In effect, we machine the part to square, and only then machine the part to what we want.


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## Threadkiller (Dec 1, 2019)

Thank you all again for taking the time to help me with this. Sorry for the delayed response. Its been a very busy holiday weekend. I hope everyone had a great one.



ttabbal said:


> It's possible that your work lifts in the vise. The amount being 0.015" would be a LOT. Use an indicator and verify the amount of lift. More than a couple of thou would be more than I would like. Tap it down with a dead blow hammer with a soft face. The parallels should be snug. Make sure you clamp in the center of the vise.
> 
> Look for some videos on squaring material. Using the mill finish as a reference is going to lead to bad parts. There are no guarantees that the surfaces are even close to straight. Making a block square to 0.005" or better is a great exercise for learning setups and cutting. It is also where many projects start.



Ive watched a couple of videos on squaring material but it was before I had a milling machine. I will have to watch them again and try it myself. I also have tap the part. Ive seen many youtube machinists do it but honestly I did not remember to do so.



RobertB said:


> Holding hot rolled flat bar can be an adventure. It frequently is not flat across the wide side, being somewhat "cupped" and the edges are not square to the flats. This makes it move as you are clamping it down, As the others have pointed out, snug your vise up but don't crank down on it, tap the part down against the parallels with a hammer, tighten the vise firmly and then see if you can move your parallels. If they are loose repeat the above steps until the part is tight against them.



I will try that thank you!



markba633csi said:


> I trick I use when holding uneven pieces in the vise is to use a popsicle stick between the part and one jaw; it squishes and takes up the gap.
> Use good quality USA made end mills. Many of the import ones dull very quickly. Use cutting fluid and slow speed for steel.
> Sometimes you can find amazing deals on new/used endmill lots on Ebay- I've gotten many a good bargain there
> Mark



Mark, what do you mean by an uneven piece? Would you consider my work piece uneven? I am not sure how the popsicle stick would help anything can you elaborate? Thank you.



mikey said:


> Okay, now its clear what you're doing and why you're having problems. Here are some comments:
> 
> Not so sure if that vise is all that accurate. The Angle Lock design is better in that the moving jaw pushes the part down instead of allowing to rock up. You might look into a better vise.
> The edges of your work piece are very rough and uneven. You need to square the whole thing up before it will sit flush to the jaws and parallels, then you can take cuts that will be flat enough to measure. Do you know how to square a part?



Mikey, the vise has definitely seen better days. I just looked up angle lock vises and my jaw dropped ha. I knew Kurt was expensive but didnt think they were that expensive. I guess I shouldnt be surprised as everything in this realm thats quality is expensive. Gotta pay to play. Unfortunately money is a little tight at the moment especially for a $600 vise. I will have to keep my eyes on craiglist.

 I have seen many videos on squaring a part but like I said previously they were all before I even had a milling machine so I didnt take it all in. I honestly thought I was squaring the piece. I was going to take a couple light cuts on one side and flip it over and do the same, then using the two flat surfaces as a reference i was going to square up the sides. I assume thats incorrect as it sounds too easy haha. I will look into squaring a part as I now remember it seemed more complicated than that.



ThinWoodsman said:


> That looks like the bridgeport vise that came with my mill. Perhaps not optimal, but suitable enough for learning. I had to make new jaws for mine though, as the old ones were pretty chewed up. Finally replace it with a Kurt, which I will agree is a huge improvement - but I wouldn't dismiss the old vise out of hand.



I figured its ok for learning but if its going to give me this many problems right outta the gate Im going to have to look into a new one.



RobertB said:


> It's similar to a Bridgeport, but the Bridgeport has a "rounded rectangle" base that sits atop the swivel not the round lobes this one has. It also appears to be missing a jaw. You are correct that it can be made to work, it just takes more care and finesse to ensure the work remains tight to the parallels. I would also remove the swivel base and attach it directly to the table and use larger diameter bolts than the ones currently holding it to the table. (the ones holding the vise to the swivel base look to be the correct size)



I actually was thinking about taking the swivel off just because I dont know if ill ever even use it and I need all the help I could get with removing variables ha.


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## Threadkiller (Dec 1, 2019)

Mitch Alsup said:


> a) did you make sure the vise is "in tram"--not just the back jaw face, but also the back jaw top and the inner vise "ways" where the parallels rest. Any errors here will show up directly on the part, after machining. Is the spindle tram to the table? both directions? I had to disassembly my vise and clean it within an inch of its life to get the vise to tram square.
> b) you need to file the burrs from sawing off the part before installing it in the jaws of the vise--so the part can rest on the parallels and be evenly clamped by the vise. Burrs may not allow the part to rest on the parallels, or to be evenly clamped on the faces of jaws.
> c) after clamping the part in the vaise, hit it on the top with a hammer (several places) to seat the part and the jaws to the ways of the vise. You can get 1-3 thou of rise just clamping a part in the jaws.
> d) you can measure the flatness of the part in the jaws after clamping with the DI in the spindle.
> e) as a part comes out of the saw, none of the sides are flat enough to be accurately machined. So, we square up the part by machining one surface, then square up the other sides by using the first machined surface as a reference in the back jaw or on the ways of the vise. In effect, we machine the part to square, and only then machine the part to what we want.



A) I will to check some more. I checked the top of the vise to the head, and the ways to the head. I didnt check the jaw faces. I wanted to but I dont have a collet that will fit my test indicator arm (super noob). The table was square when I checked with the dial indicator. I dont remember the numbers off the top of my head though. These are all things where I would benefit from a fundamentals class. Unfortunately I havent been able to find anything local to me at night or on the weekends.
B) Again something I didnt even think of. Stuff like that, among many many other things, is what separates my brain from a true machinists brain. You guys are so precise and on point with everything that us regular dudes just arent. I have to train my brain to think of little things like that. I guess/hope that stuff like that will just come with experience.
C) I will definitely try that next time.
D)I clamped my dial indicator in the spindle so I could measure faces straight down or perpendicular, but I didnt have the correct size collet for my test indicator arm so i wasnt able to check jaw faces.
E) I am going to look into squaring a part right now.

Again thank you all for taking the time out to help me with my novicity (is that a word? ha) Thank you for being kind and patient. I had a busy weekend but next chance I get to mess around in the garage I will post back.


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## Chewy (Dec 1, 2019)

My 2 cents: Everybody has good solutions.  The only thing I would add is to lower the piece in the vise. Use lower parallels and only leave about 5/16" over vise jaws.  You said you needed to cut 1/4".  The higher the piece is in the vise, the more rise from the jaws and tendency to vibrate. Also you need to cut both sides of the block.  If you only cut one side you can get some weird warp and twist from stress in the metal. Not always but it can happen.  Plan this in your operations.  Charles


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## mikey (Dec 1, 2019)

Threadkiller said:


> Mikey, the vise has definitely seen better days. I just looked up angle lock vises and my jaw dropped ha. I knew Kurt was expensive but didnt think they were that expensive. I guess I shouldnt be surprised as everything in this realm thats quality is expensive. Gotta pay to play. Unfortunately money is a little tight at the moment especially for a $600 vise. I will have to keep my eyes on craiglist.



The vast majority of your work will be held in your vise so having a decent one is a good idea. I own an RF-31, too, and I bought a new Kurt D-40, 4" milling vise because I wanted a good one right off the bat. A very good option to a Kurt is the Glacern GSV-440, also a 4" vise. A 4" is just the right size for our machines. That Glacern vise is an angle lock vise with a limited lifetime warranty for a decent price. I would not opt to buy the swivel base; you won't use it very often, if at all.


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## ThinWoodsman (Dec 1, 2019)

RobertB said:


> It's similar to a Bridgeport, but the Bridgeport has a "rounded rectangle" base that sits atop the swivel not the round lobes this one has. It also appears to be missing a jaw.


Ah, good catch - the orientation of the photos flipped so in my cursory look I thought there was a jaw on either side. Pretty clear from the first photo that there isn't.
The side without the jaw is also the side which is lifting (has a deeper cut), which makes sense. The cast iron of the vise is giving way or just not holding.
Making a new jaw without a vise ... well, that oughta be fun.


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## epanzella (Dec 1, 2019)

Another thing (I may have missed it in the previous posts) is that the piece might not be square where It contacts the vice jaws. If one end of the piece is wider the other end will move easily no matter how hard you tighten the vice. The solution to that of is a strip of soft material between the piece and jaw.


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## markba633csi (Dec 2, 2019)

Threadkiller:  My popsicle stick solution is similar to epanzella's above in post #25
Mark


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## epanzella (Dec 2, 2019)

markba633csi said:


> Threadkiller:  My popsicle stick solution is similar to epanzella's above in post #25
> Mark


Sorry Mark. You beat me to it but I was late to the party and missed your post.
Ed P


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## markba633csi (Dec 2, 2019)

No problem Ed


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## homebrewed (Dec 2, 2019)

Although not as handy as a Kurt style vise, if used properly screwless vices also will prevent jaw lift.  They are less expensive, too.  I started with a screwless and just recently bought a Kurt style vise.  

I won't get rid of the screwless because it isn't as tall.  Insufficient Z clearance can be an issue with smaller benchtop mills.

As time goes by you will find you need a variety of work holders.  I found a number of good designs on Harold Hall's web site here.  His low profile versions are good if you work on a lot of thinner stock.


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## Threadkiller (Dec 3, 2019)

Chewy said:


> My 2 cents: Everybody has good solutions.  The only thing I would add is to lower the piece in the vise. Use lower parallels and only leave about 5/16" over vise jaws.  You said you needed to cut 1/4".  The higher the piece is in the vise, the more rise from the jaws and tendency to vibrate. Also you need to cut both sides of the block.  If you only cut one side you can get some weird warp and twist from stress in the metal. Not always but it can happen.  Plan this in your operations.  Charles



I didn't think jaw lift was a thing before this ha. I will keep that in mind. Keep the part lower, taking smaller cuts and raise the part as necessary. Thank you. 



mikey said:


> The vast majority of your work will be held in your vise so having a decent one is a good idea. I own an RF-31, too, and I bought a new Kurt D-40, 4" milling vise because I wanted a good one right off the bat. A very good option to a Kurt is the Glacern GSV-440, also a 4" vise. A 4" is just the right size for our machines. That Glacern vise is an angle lock vise with a limited lifetime warranty for a decent price. I would not opt to buy the swivel base; you won't use it very often, if at all.



I checked out the Glacern and while better than a Kurt, its still pretty pricy right now for me with just purchasing the mill and now Christmas coming up...Do you have any input on the Shars vises or Shars stuff in general? Their prices seem very reasonable. I have seen Abom use their stuff so it cant be all that bad?



epanzella said:


> Another thing (I may have missed it in the previous posts) is that the piece might not be square where It contacts the vice jaws. If one end of the piece is wider the other end will move easily no matter how hard you tighten the vice. The solution to that of is a strip of soft material between the piece and jaw.



That explains the popsicle stick post above. Thank you. I love learning all this stuff.



homebrewed said:


> Although not as handy as a Kurt style vise, if used properly screwless vices also will prevent jaw lift.  They are less expensive, too.  I started with a screwless and just recently bought a Kurt style vise.
> 
> I won't get rid of the screwless because it isn't as tall.  Insufficient Z clearance can be an issue with smaller benchtop mills.
> 
> As time goes by you will find you need a variety of work holders.  I found a number of good designs on Harold Hall's web site here.  His low profile versions are good if you work on a lot of thinner stock.



Those look interesting. I will price them out.


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## machPete99 (Dec 3, 2019)

Some basics...
Hopefully you have the cutter mounted in a collet and not in a drill chuck.
Check the gibs on all axes and make sure there is not excessive play. Lock the gibs for all axis that you are not moving.
Make sure the quill is fully pulled up so there is less flex (assuming this mill has a quill...).
Look for "Cobalt" HSS cutters on ebay, they are relatively cheap and usually of better quality.
Save up for the better vice if you need to do precision work (cry once).
After the vice, look into carbide tooling, Glacern has some decent pieces, although not cheap.

Edit:
Also make sure you are not "climb milling". Only engage part of the cutter, feeding into the cutter teeth.


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## ThinWoodsman (Dec 3, 2019)

Threadkiller said:


> > Although not as handy as a Kurt style vise, if used properly screwless vices also will prevent jaw lift.
> 
> Those look interesting. I will price them out.



They are much more affordable than a Kurt or Glacern, if your work is small enough for the 2" or 3" versions.

You can put a screwless vise in your current vise, get it all clamped and square and everything, then just put work in the screwless vise and never touch the big vise again.

It *is* worth replacing the big vise with a glacern or kurt at some point (for certain definitions of "worth", generally not financial) but they are pricey. Better, in my opinion, to find alternate, cheaper ways to do things when starting out. You can work on the table (see the Harold Hall stuff above), you can buy good-enough equipment from Shars (e.g. a screwless vise), you can make do. Once you are good enough to determine that yes, it is indeed the equipment and not your technique which is causing the loss of precision, then you can make the decision on buying the good stuff - until then, you're just spending more and more money hoping for some magic to happen.


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## pontiac428 (Dec 3, 2019)

Before going out to buy a new vise, deburr that part and remove the swivel base from your vise.  Also adjust and lock your gibs, that's a big deal on a Rong Fu.  The RF is capable of good work once you learn its kinks.


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## Threadkiller (Dec 3, 2019)

machPete99 said:


> Some basics...
> Hopefully you have the cutter mounted in a collet and not in a drill chuck.
> Check the gibs on all axes and make sure there is not excessive play. Lock the gibs for all axis that you are not moving.
> Make sure the quill is fully pulled up so there is less flex (assuming this mill has a quill...).
> ...



The end mill was in a collet, yes. The mill does have a quill. About the vise, that's my question. I am looking to learn and while a super precise and great quality vise would be great, its just not financially in the cards right now. Are there people out there learning and making nice parts on more budgety vises like a Shars?



ThinWoodsman said:


> They are much more affordable than a Kurt or Glacern, if your work is small enough for the 2" or 3" versions.
> 
> You can put a screwless vise in your current vise, get it all clamped and square and everything, then just put work in the screwless vise and never touch the big vise again.
> 
> It *is* worth replacing the big vise with a glacern or kurt at some point (for certain definitions of "worth", generally not financial) but they are pricey. Better, in my opinion, to find alternate, cheaper ways to do things when starting out. You can work on the table (see the Harold Hall stuff above), you can buy good-enough equipment from Shars (e.g. a screwless vise), you can make do. Once you are good enough to determine that yes, it is indeed the equipment and not your technique which is causing the loss of precision, then you can make the decision on buying the good stuff - until then, you're just spending more and more money hoping for some magic to happen.



I agree with finding alternate cheaper ways to do things especially starting out. I mean I would have loved to start out on a restored Bridgeport with a nice Kurt vise and all carbide tooling but obviously that's not in the cards for most hobbyists at least that I know of. Can I get away with learning and being decent on more of a budget? My problem is I have too many responsibilities and expensive hobbies ha. Why couldn't I like something that's cheap..



pontiac428 said:


> Before going out to buy a new vise, deburr that part and remove the swivel base from your vise.  Also adjust and lock your gibs, that's a big deal on a Rong Fu.  The RF is capable of good work once you learn its kinks.



I assumed it wasn't the mill. In fact I assumed all of the problem was me and my lack of experience/knowledge. 

So on the gib locking. Does everyone lock the gibs on the axis they aren't currently using every time? Or is it one of those things that's just good practice that people don't do?


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## mikey (Dec 3, 2019)

So, here's the thing about vises. They are the foundation of your milling set up. If the vise is square and precise enough then you can do decent work. If the vise is off then your work is off. I feel that you can cheap out on some things but not on your milling vise. On the other hand, I do understand that your budget is a real thing so you need to make this work without blowing it. 

My opinion is to use a screwless 4" vise until you decide on or can afford a decent milling vise. They are cheaply had on ebay and will be more than rigid and precise enough to do good work. In fact, most screwless vises are more accurate than most milling vises. They are slower to use but a few more minutes in set up is not a big deal for a hobby guy. I happen to own four of these vises so I know they will work for you.

As for Shars vises, I have no direct experience with them. From the comments I've seen regarding Chinese vises, most of them require some tune up/grinding to work right. However, Shars has a better rep than most so best to wait for an opinion from someone who owns one. 

Personally, I would use a screwless vise until I saved up for a good Kurt or GMT vise. There are thousands of Kurt vises in pro and hobby shops for very good reasons - they work and they hold up to use over time. In the end, a good vise is cheaper than a cheap vise.


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## ThinWoodsman (Dec 3, 2019)

Threadkiller said:


> Can I get away with learning and being decent on more of a budget?



I look at it this way: people were doing accurate work before there were Kurt vises. There's always another way. 

One of the problems with watching videos is you're usually seeing some guy with hundreds of hours of experience on the specific machine he is using, doing something he's practiced (and probably mucked up while filming) a few times already. When he just chucks a hunk of metal in the vise and skims off a perfect 0.0017" on the first try, it looks pretty easy. But it isn't; it takes a lot of time, practice, and learning to get to that point. So don't expect stuff to work like just in the videos - you have the ugly reality of your own machine and tooling (or lack thereof) to deal with on top not ever having done this before.



Threadkiller said:


> So on the gib locking. Does everyone lock the gibs on the axis they aren't currently using every time? Or is it one of those things that's just good practice that people don't do?



Lock everything that doesn't need to be moving for the cut you are taking. That one time you don't lock it will be the one time that the table lurches in that partcular direction, guaranteed.


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## mikey (Dec 3, 2019)

Threadkiller said:


> So on the gib locking. Does everyone lock the gibs on the axis they aren't currently using every time? Or is it one of those things that's just good practice that people don't do?



I agree with @pontiac428 - adjust your gibs to remove any unnecessary slack. You are supposed to lock any axis that is not moving during the cut; this is just good practice. However, I rarely ever do. I just get my machine gibs adjusted well and make my cuts and have had no issues with chatter so far. Of course, I'm not making honking huge cuts on my RF-31 but I do push it when I need to and haven't had any problems with it.

Why not tune up your gibs and try your hand at squaring up that work piece you're having trouble with? I suspect you could do a fair enough job with that vise you already own if you work carefully. If you need detailed information on how to do that, PM me.


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## Mitch Alsup (Dec 3, 2019)

ThinWoodsman said:


> I look at it this way: people were doing accurate work before there were Kurt vises. There's always another way.
> 
> One of the problems with watching videos is you're usually seeing some guy with hundreds of hours of experience on the specific machine he is using, doing something he's practiced (and probably mucked up while filming) a few times already. When he just chucks a hunk of metal in the vise and skims off a perfect 0.0017" on the first try, it looks pretty easy. But it isn't; it takes a lot of time, practice, and learning to get to that point. So don't expect stuff to work like just in the videos - you have the ugly reality of your own machine and tooling (or lack thereof) to deal with on top not ever having done this before.



Let me amplify this point. At my stage in machining (2.5 years in), I typically make 3 parts when I need two. Earlier on I used to make 3 sets of parts in order to have one set that meets tolerances. Each failure can be traced back to improperly thinking about how to perform the machining or improperly using measurement tools. Sloppy thinking leads not measuring enough which leads to out of tolerance <scrap> parts. The old adage of measure twice cut once applies in spades.

By measuring before you put the part in the vise, measuring with the part in the vise,  then measuring after the machining step with the part still in the vise, and them measuring again after the part is removed from the vise; you learn what your vise wants in order for it to hold the tolerances you are attempting. Listen to what you vise is telling you. Listen to what the measurement tools are telling you. And practice on those pieces of scrap you just produced.

We, in machining, are LUCKY in that our tolerances stop at 0.001". In telescope optics you <often> have tolerances in the 0.000,001" range (a fraction of he wavelength of light. You end up building rooms with still air just so you can measure the parts before more work is performed. Moving air will disturb the ability to measure optical surfaces at the precision necessary.


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## Threadkiller (Dec 4, 2019)

mikey said:


> So, here's the thing about vises. They are the foundation of your milling set up. If the vise is square and precise enough then you can do decent work. If the vise is off then your work is off. I feel that you can cheap out on some things but not on your milling vise. On the other hand, I do understand that your budget is a real thing so you need to make this work without blowing it.
> 
> My opinion is to use a screwless 4" vise until you decide on or can afford a decent milling vise. They are cheaply had on ebay and will be more than rigid and precise enough to do good work. In fact, most screwless vises are more accurate than most milling vises. They are slower to use but a few more minutes in set up is not a big deal for a hobby guy. I happen to own four of these vises so I know they will work for you.
> 
> ...



Mikey, I have both your posts to reference so I will quote both. I totally understand having a good foundation and that is something someone like me really cant afford not to have. Eliminating one variable off the hop would definitely help. I have been looking at screwless vises. I think I may have found what I want for Christmas this year 



ThinWoodsman said:


> I look at it this way: people were doing accurate work before there were Kurt vises. There's always another way.
> 
> One of the problems with watching videos is you're usually seeing some guy with hundreds of hours of experience on the specific machine he is using, doing something he's practiced (and probably mucked up while filming) a few times already. When he just chucks a hunk of metal in the vise and skims off a perfect 0.0017" on the first try, it looks pretty easy. But it isn't; it takes a lot of time, practice, and learning to get to that point. So don't expect stuff to work like just in the videos - you have the ugly reality of your own machine and tooling (or lack thereof) to deal with on top not ever having done this before.
> 
> ...



Thank you for the advice and thank you for saying that. I often wonder what happens behind the scenes in those videos. I figure they mess up here and there but its still hard to think of these experienced guys who make everything look so simple, screwing things up. I mean I know we all make mistakes but they just make it look so perfect ha. Id love to see a screw up video where they show everything start to finish.



mikey said:


> I agree with @pontiac428 - adjust your gibs to remove any unnecessary slack. You are supposed to lock any axis that is not moving during the cut; this is just good practice. However, I rarely ever do. I just get my machine gibs adjusted well and make my cuts and have had no issues with chatter so far. Of course, I'm not making honking huge cuts on my RF-31 but I do push it when I need to and haven't had any problems with it.
> 
> Why not tune up your gibs and try your hand at squaring up that work piece you're having trouble with? I suspect you could do a fair enough job with that vise you already own if you work carefully. If you need detailed information on how to do that, PM me.



I will send you a PM. Thank you.



Mitch Alsup said:


> Let me amplify this point. At my stage in machining (2.5 years in), I typically make 3 parts when I need two. Earlier on I used to make 3 sets of parts in order to have one set that meets tolerances. Each failure can be traced back to improperly thinking about how to perform the machining or improperly using measurement tools. Sloppy thinking leads not measuring enough which leads to out of tolerance <scrap> parts. The old adage of measure twice cut once applies in spades.
> 
> By measuring before you put the part in the vise, measuring with the part in the vise,  then measuring after the machining step with the part still in the vise, and them measuring again after the part is removed from the vise; you learn what your vise wants in order for it to hold the tolerances you are attempting. Listen to what you vise is telling you. Listen to what the measurement tools are telling you. And practice on those pieces of scrap you just produced.
> 
> We, in machining, are LUCKY in that our tolerances stop at 0.001". In telescope optics you <often> have tolerances in the 0.000,001" range (a fraction of he wavelength of light. You end up building rooms with still air just so you can measure the parts before more work is performed. Moving air will disturb the ability to measure optical surfaces at the precision necessary.



Ok, first off I couldn't even fathom tolerances in the 0.000,001" range haha that gives me a headache. I like picking your guys' brains on this stuff. It really gives you a broad sense about all the different types of ways to do things and make quality parts. 

I said it before and I'll say it again. I really do appreciate all you gentlemen taking time out to help a clueless aspiring tinkerer like myself. It is very appreciated.


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## Threadkiller (Dec 7, 2019)

So I finally had a chance to get in the garage last night to do some milling. Taking everyone’s input into consideration really helped. Thank you all. I slowed the speed down to 125rpm, I locked the gib on the axis I wasn’t using, I clamped my part in the vise using a popsicle stick and I didn’t gorilla the part into the vise like I did last time. 

I actually was curious after watching some videos on vise jaw rise and put an indicator on it and it really doesn’t take much force to get .005-.008 rise  on the movable jaw. I’m sure that didn’t help last time either. I tend to over tighten things which is why I torque most important fasteners when I’m working on cars. 

Onto the next problem. I didn’t think I would need a Spanner wrench to tighten the draw bar as I figured I could just grab the pulley and tighten it. That worked initially when I was taking light cuts and the surface finish looked great and I wasn’t having chatter which I’m chalking up to running too fast if a spindle rpm last time. 

Once I started experimenting with larger and larger depths of cut just to see how it would react I saw the need to really tighten up that draw bar. I was taking a .25” depth of cut on that same mild steel flat bar just to see how it would react and it was actually cutting great. Until I noticed that the end mill was slowly getting pulled out of the collet and walking its way deeper into the part. Kind of a bummer since I was on my way to salvaging that part from last time but live and learn. Guess I’ll be fabbing up a Spanner for the draw bar sooner rather than later.

After all that I decided to take the table, lead screws and y axis off and clean and readjust and re oil the gibs and ways. Everything looked great but it felt nice to freshen the machine up and I was able to get some chips out of some spots that have probably been there for years and adjust the gibs. Unfortunately half way through when I had parts everywhere I lost power for absolutely no reason as it was a clear night no wind or precipitation ha. Thankfully I was able to get it all back together using a couple work lights.


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