# I’ve got the co-trustee blues



## Janderso (Aug 24, 2021)

My mother and I are co-trustees of my parents trust.
My mother passed away so I’m the successor trustee.
When I went to the attorney to provide a death certificate and to initiate the legal termination-distribution of the trust, I heard an hour of legal speak.
So I go online to determine if we even need a lawyer? Everything is written by lawyers.
My mother’s remaining assets are in securities and bonds, mutual funds etc.
No real estate.
I’m a beneficiary along with my brother. That’s it. 50-50 are the instructions in the trust. It’s all laid out.
I’m asking my friends if they have any advise for this lonely old trustee.
All the assets are in one Edward Jones account. I’ve asked our representative to create an account for my brother in effort to split the shares and hold open a money market for any unknown expenses. The attorney suggests waiting 120 days as a discovery period.
I’ve paid all bills.
 Thanks for any advice or experience you can share.
My gut says, I don’t need an attorney.


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## Aukai (Aug 24, 2021)

My mother had an undiscovered separate account, as the trustee you will be, and should have all mail forwarded to you. I kept getting mail that I thought was a duplicate of what was already in the estate, and did not open it for some time. It was a totally different account that I was able to direct into the trust. You will be flooded with mail for awhile.


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## Papa Charlie (Aug 24, 2021)

This is something that my wife and I have to look into. We don't have any children. If anything happens to me, my wife is the beneficary of all my accounts. But we need to set something up so that if something happens to both of us, all our assests are liquidated and split between our three nieces and nephew.


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## Aaron_W (Aug 24, 2021)

Other than 2 storage units of "treasures" the only significant asset left by my mother was a Charles Schwab account and a few thousand dollars death benefit from her pension. My brother and I were listed as the beneficiaries on the CS account. 
When I went to the lawyer who had been helping me during the conservatorship, he went over what we had, saw that the account was the only significant dollar value, saw that my brother and I were the listed beneficiaries, told me the easiest way to divide the account, and bid me a good day, billed for about 10 minutes work.

Went to Charles Schwab with the death certificate, they had my my brother and I create new accounts, then split her account into the new accounts and it was done.

I had been handling all of her bills so there were no outstanding debts. Over the next couple of months we did receive several smallish life insurance policies that I had known nothing about.



Papa Charlie said:


> This is something that my wife and I have to look into. We don't have any children. If anything happens to me, my wife is the beneficary of all my accounts. But we need to set something up so that if something happens to both of us, all our assests are liquidated and split between our three nieces and nephew.



If you don't want a significant amount to go to the state and lawyers set up a trust. Even when there is only one relative for the assets to go to a sizable amount of the estate will get siphoned off in fees without a will or trust. Not terribly expensive to have a simple trust drawn up, I think $1000-1500 is typical.


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## FOMOGO (Aug 24, 2021)

Doing my dad's and brothers estates, just about put me into the ground beside them. The process had already been started, and lawyer in place when I took over after my brothers death. It turned my mild distaste for attorney's, into full blown hatred. Avoid them entirely, if at all possible. Mike


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## rabler (Aug 24, 2021)

One component is how cooperative your brother will be.  My experience suggests that the more friction between the beneficiaries, the more the attorneys benefit.

Different states have different policies.  But I think the most important thing you can do for yourself is to keep very careful records of everything.  In addition to dividing the assets, between you and your brother, you have a third category, expenses in settling the estate, which come out of the estate.

editted to add: Forgive me if I'm stating the obvious ...


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## Beckerkumm (Aug 24, 2021)

I'm a CPA of 45 years and have been both a trustee and Personal Rep for estates many times.  There is no tax difference between a Revocable trust and an estate.  the trust does does avoid probate which may or may not be a big deal depending on the jurisdiction.  If there are issues in the family or among the beneficiaries, I prefer being PR in an estate as the judge signs off on my decisions and requires a complete accounting.  Sometimes it is good to have a backup when the beneficiaries are idiots.

Generally I go to cash rather than split up assets if possible.  It is often difficult to split each stock evenly and since date of death and date of distribution values are different, there is difficulty in truing up beneficiaries unless all is in cash.  The job of the trustee in winding up a trust is to minimize risk.  If the market drops like in March of 2020, you don't need people questioning why you held securities.  Whether you need an attorney for more than just a consultation depends on the assets in the trust and the potential for beneficiaries to make your life miserable.  Dave


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## Janderso (Aug 24, 2021)

Some valuable information here.
The attorney did say, ask your Edward Jones rep. to open an account for your brother, splitting the shares , in kind, is the legal way to go. He can then transfer to Les Schwab, cash out, reinvest or do whatever he wants. This is already set up as of yesterday.
Regarding value, there is a small IRA that was combined from my Dad's IRA to my Mom's. Both her IRA account and the trust account are held at Edward Jones. The estate is in excess of half a million, way below the death tax. I think it's 11.8 million?? No worries there.

It appears the only things to worry about is the relationship with my brother and determining any unpaid bills.
I've been rereading the trust documents this morning. My instructions are pretty clear.

A 1099 went to the Franchise Tax board for some dividends that were reinvested back in 2019.
Our tax guy said her income is so low she doesn't need to file after he did her 2018 taxes, so we didn't.
The 1099 was for less than $2,000. Tax on that would be approximately $200 for state. Haven't heard from the feds.
I meet with our tax guy on Friday to get some advise moving forward.

I think it would be prudent to hold about $20,000-$30,000 in limbo until we get all this tax stuff worked out. 
Thanks for your help,
I'm feeling better about the no attorney needed idea.


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## projectnut (Aug 24, 2021)

There are many forms of trusts and each have their own advantages and disadvantages.  We've been administrators of a few over the years and they've generally been an expensive PITA.  While they do direct specific money amounts to the beneficiaries they are expensive to maintain.  If there are investments and properties involved they require annual accounting and have tax obligations.  The tax man gets paid first, the lawyers second, the accountants third, and anything that's left over is split by the beneficiaries.

We had a a relative investing with Edward Jones.  There wasn't a great deal of money involved, but over the years the real winner was the local Edward Jones investor not the designated beneficiaries.  The beneficiaries did open temporary accounts there to transfer the money, but closed them as soon as possible.  The fees in addition to the buying and selling commissions were outrageous. 

If you're at all financially savvy once the money is distributed move it to a TD Watehouse or similar style account.  You'll have to personally make more financial decisions, but won't loose money on fees and commissions.  Depending on the fee and commission structure full service providers like Edward Jones can cost 10% or more.  

In addition to the fees and commissions the amount of money involved also has implications.  The smaller amount of money involved the fewer services are  available.  Most inverting companies have break points that determine the level of service.  Less than $100,000.00 gets almost no service, $500,000.00 gets limited service, $1,000,000.  gets semi full service, and $5,000,000.00 gets full service


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## Janderso (Aug 24, 2021)

projectnut said:


> move it to a TD Watehouse or similar style account


Is that Ameritrade? I did a Google for TD Waterhouse and got A Canadian reference.
When my Dad was still with us he had 100% of his investments in Ameritrade =all securities.
He was losing his cognitive abilities and mom couldn't do anything online. She asked me to help her move the money to a local firm.
It took me several phone calls to get the right people. The sales guys said they would do this or that and never did a thing.
I was not impressed. I'm sure their fees are much less, my dad hated paying for any service.
I just don't know enough to handle our own investments. I trust a professional and know I'm gonna have to pay for their advise.
I did set up an E-trade account. Makes it easy to buy and sell stocks at less than $7 for each transaction.


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## matthewsx (Aug 24, 2021)

I was successor trustee for my dad who owned a home in Santa Cruz and a fairly small amount of equities. My sister was living in the home but could not buy me out, I wanted it for many reasons and eventually ended up buying out her half.

Without the lawyer I probably would have been forced to sell it  and divide the proceeds. It was a long and difficult process but my sister and I are still on speaking terms....

Money is easy IMHO, just split it up and make sure to continue to celebrate your mom's life.

John


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## Just for fun (Aug 24, 2021)

Jeff,  I don't think you need a lawyer,  it sounds like it is all set up.   

When my dad died, his was all set up also.  He did have real estate very little savings, a car and a pickup.   The real estate was his house full of stuff. 

My wife, myself, his three grand kids and a cousin went through the house took what we wanted.   I contacted a local church group and donated the rest with the stipulation that they go in and clean the house so it could be sold. 

I gave the car to one of his friends and sold the pickup. 

I sold the house and spilt the profits with my brother.  A month later I got notified of a life insurance policy.  It was all fairly easy.  Thanks to my dad's lawyer friend that had it all written out real nice. 

My wife and I don't have any kids either.   We have what I believe to be a will writen well.  My niece is the executor so she gets some extra money and pay to take care of things.  But we have it written the all of our assets are to go to two different charities and some to the American Motorcycle Association.   Hopefully that won't happen for about 30 years.


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## Janderso (Aug 24, 2021)

Papa Charlie said:


> This is something that my wife and I have to look into. We don't have any children. If anything happens to me, my wife is the beneficary of all my accounts. But we need to set something up so that if something happens to both of us, all our assests are liquidated and split between our three nieces and nephew.


Don't put it off. Get the trust set up. It makes life for your loved ones a whole lot easier in the long run.


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## Beckerkumm (Aug 24, 2021)

If you decide to set up a Rev Trust as part of your estate plan, be sure to transfer all assets into the name of the trust.  Real estate, cash accounts, and even cars need to be titled in trust name or you will end up with both a probate estate that will pour into a trust and the trust itself.  Worst of both worlds.  Like anything else, a good idea done wrong is like a bad idea.  Dave


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## projectnut (Aug 24, 2021)

Janderso said:


> *Is that Ameritrade? *I did a Google for TD Waterhouse and got A Canadian reference.
> When my Dad was still with us he had 100% of his investments in Ameritrade =all securities.
> He was losing his cognitive abilities and mom couldn't do anything online. She asked me to help her move the money to a local firm.
> It took me several phone calls to get the right people. The sales guys said they would do this or that and never did a thing.
> ...


You are correct.  TD Warehouse was bought out by Ameritrade for about 2 years.  It's now TD Ameritrade  I believe Ameritrade is owned by Charles Schwab


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## Janderso (Aug 24, 2021)

Just for fun said:


> Jeff, I don't think you need a lawyer, it sounds like it is all set up.


I ran into my financial advisor while on my walk this morning. I asked him what he thought of my situation. He didn't think a lawyer was necessary either.
This is getting easier to live with.


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## Aukai (Aug 24, 2021)

I was the trustee for my mom, she had a check sent to my brother upon her death, I did not even deal with him. I have since put the trust in a Schwab account administered by a Schwab independent investment advisor. I know squat about the market, but I see all of the buy, and sell trades going on.


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## Beckerkumm (Aug 24, 2021)

you may need an accountant though.  The Trust technically needs a new ID # if it used Mom's SSN until her death.  Any income collected after DOD will come in the new ID and need a return filed unless you can get Ed Jones to transfer directly from mom's trust to the new accounts as of her date of death and step up the basis of the assets as well.  It is getting more difficult to do anything in a hurry and brokerage companies are getting more demanding in the way they will transfer assets.  You may get lucky and get everything transferred without the new ID # but that hasn't been my experience.  Dave


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## Aaron_W (Aug 24, 2021)

Janderso said:


> I ran into my financial advisor while on my walk this morning. I asked him what he thought of my situation. He didn't think a lawyer was necessary either.
> This is getting easier to live with.



The need for a lawyer or not probably hinges on the relationship of the survivors. In my case it was easy, my brother and I are not close but we get along well and we worked closely in my mothers last years. Splitting the money 50/50 after all expenses were paid was perfectly acceptable to both of us. 

I have heard horror stories about the knives coming out between family members squabbling over the division of assets.


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## Janderso (Aug 24, 2021)

Aaron_W said:


> I have heard horror stories about the knives coming out between family members squabbling over the division of assets.


Oh man, me too. Relatives-in laws start fighting over the little ****.


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## Papa Charlie (Aug 25, 2021)

Janderso said:


> Oh man, me too. Relatives-in laws start fighting over the little ****.


That is what happened when my wife's mother passed away. One of the sisters was living in the house and the executor of the estate. She refused to do anything regarding the house or assets for over two years. Then after the housing market dropped out she bought the other siblings out. They would have gatherings of the three sisters, leaving my wife out and divide up jewelry and other items between them. 

My wife was the one that took care of her mother and grandmother in their last few months. It is sad what my wife endured from her family. To this day, they rarely speak. It took my wife 5 years to get her pictures as a child from her sister.

I have always said that my wife's three sisters are the Stygian Witches and that she must have been stolen as a baby and adapted. Loved her mother and her grandmother, they were both wonderful ladies and I miss them very much.


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## bill70j (Aug 25, 2021)

FWIW, we spent good money on a two-attorney firm that specializes in living trusts.  A friend referred them to us.  So we signed up for a "free" seminar that included lunch at a local hotel.  We took the bait -- and would do it again.

The living trust puts everything in a single place --  all the way from from named successor trustees to wills to advance care directives to detailed lists of financial accounts and valuable possessions.  Plus the attorneys stay on top of state and federal tax laws as they change from one administration to the next, and will amend the trust as necessary to protect the assets.  These guys maintain the "master" of the trust.

We have no kids, so had to think through whom we wanted as successor trustees, their alternates., as well as beneficiaries.  All of those folks live far away from us but the successor trustees have a copy of the trust, so if we die together unexpectedly, or we both become incapacitated, they will know who needs to do what, and how to get in touch with the attorneys.

This was a big one time investment, but we are glad we did it, and are especially pleased with the attorneys who guided us through the process.


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## Beckerkumm (Aug 25, 2021)

Just be aware of what you really need.  I've seen people with less than 1M in assets and a 60 page living trust they paid 5K for that is really just a marketing tool for attorneys.  Like any profession, there are attorneys and accountants who create complex documents that people don't understand ( creating an annuity for the provider ) and promote them as some cutting edge estate plan when they are really lipstick for a 60 page pig.  Do your homework and generally beware of free lunches as there are none.  Dave


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## Janderso (Aug 25, 2021)

Beckerkumm said:


> new ID and need a return filed unless you can get Ed Jones to transfer directly from mom's trust to the new accounts as of her date of death


The trust is currently in mom's SS#. I assumed we would just split the shares from the trust account into our EJ account and my brother's new account.
As I understand it, a snap shot of the value of the shares is taken on the day of her death and any growth from that date is how capital gains are determined if the shares are sold?
I'll know more by Friday as we meet with our CPA and EJ this week.


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## Janderso (Aug 25, 2021)

Beckerkumm said:


> Just be aware of what you really need. I've seen people with less than 1M in assets and a 60 page living trust they paid 5K for that is really just a marketing tool for attorneys. Like any profession, there are attorneys and accountants who create complex documents that people don't understand


I think your statement is absolutely true.
I'm convinced they go out of their way to legal speak the documents so you have to go back for them to deal with it.


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## bill70j (Aug 25, 2021)

Beckerkumm said:


> Just be aware of what you really need.  I've seen people with less than 1M in assets and a 60 page living trust they paid 5K for that is really just a marketing tool for attorneys.  Like any profession, there are attorneys and accountants who create complex documents that people don't understand ( creating an annuity for the provider ) and promote them as some cutting edge estate plan when they are really lipstick for a 60 page pig.  Do your homework and generally beware of free lunches as there are none.  Dave


Thanks, Dave.  Good advice.  

In our case the attorneys were recommended by a friend, and we did a lot of research on the firm after that yummy free lunch.

Our living trust is long and it's comprehensive, and it took a number of sessions to complete it, including adding text that my wife and I developed. I think I understand it - as complex as it is - and I think the price we paid is commensurate with the value of our assets, low as it may be.



Janderso said:


> I think your statement is absolutely true.
> I'm convinced they go out of their way to legal speak the documents so you have to go back for them to deal with it.



I think it is up to a client to make sure everything is understood, including all the legalese.  If someone pays a good sum for a document they don't thoroughly understand,  and they signed it and had notarized, then that's on them.


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## Papa Charlie (Aug 26, 2021)

I know this is a hard question to answer, probably the right answer will be "It Depends!". But what does it cost to put together a Trust, assets less than $1M?


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## tq60 (Aug 26, 2021)

For single person less than 2 k, for a couple less than 3k.

There are some firms that specialize in this and it is very simple.

Email a link to a general set of questions.

A conference call to discuss it.

A second call to confirm understanding and information.

Meeting to sign and done.


After if you have 401k stuff you add trust to them as cheaper for you to do this than lawyer.

Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk


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## bill70j (Aug 26, 2021)

tq60 said:


> For single person less than 2 k, for a couple less than 3k.
> 
> There are some firms that specialize in this and it is very simple.
> 
> ...


We are a couple and this cost is in line with what we spent.  We dealt with a two-attorney estate planning LLC and structured the agreement on a fixed fee basis. 

But our process was more involved, including several face-to-face meetings with the estate planning attorney, and four or five drafts before we got all the documents just the way we wanted them.  We also spent a good amount of time reviewing the documents with our successor trustees and their alternates and also making sure that all of the assets had proper beneficiary designations.

It took nine months to complete the process.  We started in March when our LLC sent out a flyer for a free rain maker four hour seminar/lunch-- and we finalized the trust in December of that same year.


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## Larry$ (Aug 26, 2021)

I was executor of my Dad's estate. A few stocks held by E Jones, two small houses and 40 acres of farm land. His wife, Mom, had died 3 years earlier. I going through his stuff I found stock certificates that my mother had inherited from a brother. 4 companies, none of the large amounts. I went to a lawyer since I didn't know what I was doing. Total value of the estate was determined to be about $1.1M. The local Jones office agreed to transfer the shares to my name when my sister & I went there together. She was getting compensating amounts from somethin else. When we went to sell the houses there was a hassle over the way the paperwork had been handled in the past. More lawyer fees. The rental house required evicting a nonpaying renter. She got a lawyer and made all sorts of wild claims. It ended up taking 6 months to get her out, more fees.  The Jones office only transferred two of the stocks to my name. When I went to find out why the man I had dealt with had been fired.  The new guy couldn't find any record of my dealing with them. Back to the lawyer. It took a long time to get any were with that process. End result was without any records Jones couldn't/wouldn't do anything about it. I contacted the stock companies and had my mother's address change to mine. The lawyer sent the companies what he said was required but they said he didn't. More fees. In the end I still get a very small check every 3 months for the dividends, in Mom's name. Lawyer said it would cost more than the stocks were worth to take it any further. Getting the 40 acres sold also brought up more fees to fix some title issues.  Did I mention, I hate lawyers!


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## Beckerkumm (Aug 26, 2021)

Sounds like in this case the lawyer is the only one who didn't screw up here.  When assets aren't retitled after the first death, the executor has little or no standing to fix it after the second death.  The Ed Jones guy should have needed a bunch of signed paperwork to transfer Mom's stuff and given you copies of what you signed.  If you have signed paperwork authorizing the transfer it is on Ed Jones for the error.  If no paperwork and all verbal, it is on you.  End result is the same though.  PITA.  Dave


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