# Will I Have A Job Tomorrow??



## Buffalo21

At 2:30 pm this afternoon, I received a phone call, from my former (as of yesterday) owner, he would received his asking price, plus 20%, if he walked away immediately. He took the check and signed the papers, so at this point I have a new owner (or owners).

The new principal owner called me this late this afternoon, he promised me nothing would change, business would go on as usual (we shall see), I expressed my concerns and serious doubts about the old owner leaving, so abruptly, but he tried to reassure me all would be well. I have to be at the company office on Tuesday morning, for a face to face meeting, something I’m not really looking forward to.

now where did I put that resume..........


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## DavidR8

Yikes!
That’s a bit alarming to say the least. 
Here’s hoping everything works out for the best for all! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Aukai

My company has been bought 3 times, still working, but it was big fish eating little fish. Now if it is a financial group maybe not so good.


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## Flyinfool

I have been through a similar situation once before. That meeting with the new boss is basically a justify your job meeting under the guise of getting to know you.

It is either the new owner thinks the previous owner is out to screw him or he is the type that thinks he knows everything and needs no help.
Usually the previous owner is kept around to smooth the transition, a walk away right now deal is extra scary.

Good luck.


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## brino

@Buffalo21

From what I have seen here:
1) you are a very talented and experienced person
2) you are willing to put in the hours and effort required to get the job done right

If the new company is any good, they already know the above and you have nothing to worry about.
If the new company isn't any good, then you do not want to work there anyway.

Someone with your skills and attitude should be fine either way.

-brino


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## 7milesup

If I bought a company I would want to meet the employees.  If you are worth what they are paying you, then there should not be an issue.


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## Watchwatch

Labor is every business’ biggest problem. I wouldn’t be too worried until they start changing your pay. 

That being said, I’d polish up your resume and be prepared for the worst.


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## Winegrower

Of course you have a job tomorrow, you don’t meet with the boss until Tuesday.


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## pdentrem

We went from a start up where 2 of the four owners put in the money and the other two worked without pay for the first couple years. 16 years later the surviving 2 owners sold to a private investment group who were hands off. Sold twice since to two more private investment groups who have purchased other related companies and expanded our businesses.
It can get scary not knowing the vision of the new owner! 
Pierre


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## Nutfarmer

I think brino summed it up very well. From an employers view point , good people are hard to find and it’s important to retain them. From your view point you have valuable skills that have helped the company be as valuable as it is. If need be your skills are quite marketable. Good people will land on their feet no mater what the world throws at them. Could turn out to be an opportunity. Good luck


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## kb58

Well first off, I hope that _you_ didn't have an owner change, that instead, the company where you work had a management change!

I'm nearing retirement age and have learned to put zero weight on the management statement that nothing is changing. Management wants control, and the way they do that is to assure everyone that everything is fine. THEY want to be the ones to lay off people; they do NOT want employees thinking for themselves and being proactive. Case in point, most companies state up front that they are "employment at will" meaning that they can lay you off with zero notice. You, on the other hand, are to give weeks (if not months) notice if you plan to leave.

So, yes, do your resume, as it's a nice touch of reality to see how the market is doing and see what you're worth elsewhere. This isn't necessarily a bad thing either way.


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## extropic

@Buffalo21 
Since I don't know what business your employer is/was in or your position on the org chart, I can't comment beyond the previous replies.

Except, don't rely on anything the new owners say unless it comes with a promotion and appropriate pay.

Float your resume around and see what the market will bear.


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## Dhal22

I wished someone would buy my company at asking price plus 20%.


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## Superburban

I can understand the fact that they wanted the owner to leave right away. The last company I worked for, was of the mindset that when an employee gave his/her two week notice, they would pay them three weeks pay, plus any accrued benefits, and say thanks. I have seen departing employees drag down, and even hurt things as they are leaving. I can imagine the same has happened with old owners. Not saying anything about this situation, only that I can understand the thinking.

Deciding to move on is hard, one never wants to feel like they are starting over, especially after working their way up in one company for awhile. Try to keep positive, and keep the meeting on the right foot, but also do not let them steam roll you into a place where you are not comfortable. Try to do your research on the new owners, and maybe you can have an advantage for the meeting. 

 Heres to a good report on Tuesday night.


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## Winegrower

Actually this is a rare opportunity to show you think like an owner, not a self-centered employee.   Make good suggestions on increasing revenue, lowering costs.   Point out any inefficiencies,  and what could be done to improve that.

Too many people seem to think it’s a good idea to be suspicious, maybe to act like you’re irreplaceable, how maybe you’ll walk if there’s anything you don’t like.   Of course you can do or be any of these things...just keep it to yourself.


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## matthewsx

Ask for a raise.


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## mmcmdl

Change is inevitable in all companies and I live thru it everyday . I try to focus on what they pay me to do , not on everything else going on around me . I tell them the truthful facts whether they like them or not which leads to some very heated discussions , but hey , I'm the eyes and ears " on the floor " . Managers can't operate staring at charts and diagrams alone , they have to know and realize where the roots of the issues lie .


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## jakes_66

brino said:


> @Buffalo21
> 
> From what I have seen here:
> 1) you are a very talented and experienced person
> 2) you are willing to put in the hours and effort required to get the job done right
> 
> If the new company is any good, they already know the above and you have nothing to worry about.
> If the new company isn't any good, then you do not want to work there anyway.
> 
> Someone with your skills and attitude should be fine either way.
> 
> -brino


These circumstances can be intimidating, but keep your head up!  With your experience and expertise you'll land on your feet no matter what the outcome.

In my opinion *you *hold a number of aces in your hand.  Tuesday may very well be an opportunity for *you to question them*.  Of course keep it concise and professional, but be sure you emphasize what *you* value in an employer and that *you have expectations too!*


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## 7milesup

Superburban said:


> I can understand the fact that they wanted the owner to leave right away. The last company I worked for, was of the mindset that when an employee gave his/her two week notice, they would pay them three weeks pay, plus any accrued benefits, and say thanks. I have seen departing employees drag down, and even hurt things as they are leaving. I can imagine the same has happened with old owners. Not saying anything about this situation, only that I can understand the thinking.


I was a VP at a small company for a few years.  When we let someone go, it was immediately.  We paid them for at least two weeks but they were out the door in a matter of an hour.  A released employee can have a very toxic effect on the rest of the employees along with possible issues regarding company property.


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## Armourer

Something I have learned over the years of being employed by other companies is they keep their best interests in mind, and you are replaceable at the drop of a hat. In the long run all they do is use your talent to make them rich. I worked for a company for over 10 years till one morning I was woke by a text message in the morning to hang tight and wait till I get a phone call before heading into the field for the day. A hour later my phone rang and was told they were downsizing again and I was out of work..... So after 10 years of loyal and dedicated service to the company it was all over by them by a text message pretty much........ 


But in saying that I am taking on a few ventures on my own now, and don't think I would of ever tried to do that if I was still employed at my previous job. Is it scary trying something new at my age with a whole family to support? Heck yes it is, but I would rather try my damnedest at it then base my whole families lively hood on a employer. If I make a bad mistake and loose my shirt in my ventures, that was my fault, I am the only one to blame. If my employer makes a bad business decision its not my fault, I have no say over it and I will be the one let go. Not the owner of the business, in a sense my family is getting punished for something we have no control over. So in saying that I would rather be responsible for my vision, how I want to run things, and of course be able to make money. I won't be no millionaire thats for sure, it will be hard and there will be set backs I know but when I get it down theres no stopping me....


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## mmcmdl

If this darn wind would ever calm down today , I'll be doing my first paying job on the Kubota . Over the years , I've been purchasing whatever implements for the tractor that I envisioned could make me $$$ in the future . Now is the time to start . If I can't make buck on my own , I still need the tractor and implements at home and at the property up in NY . I have to give it a shot , retirement is close .


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## aliva

The company I retired from was bought by a Brazilian company. Nothing changed for 2 years, till our labor contract ended. Their demands for a new contract were outrageous, we ended up on strike for over a year. They finally settled, but it cost them over a billion$ in losses and costs trying to operate as usual. Didn't work. They basically tried to break the union.  When we came back they told us they run the show , and just do as your told, don't think, or we'll fire you.  After 2 more years of low production, high costs, they changed their tune and started asking for employee input to put the company back in the black. that was back in 2009-2010. Still not a good company to work for, glad I retired 5 years ago.


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## pdentrem

We know that Brazil based company. Tried the oriental business method.


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## pontiac428

You might find yourself in the situation of being retained long enough to train your own replacement.  The replacement will have 4 years of education and zero experience, so he will be cheaper than you and he will think he knows more.  If you smell this on the breeze, run!  Let those capitalist hogs eat the place into swiss cheese, but don't help them do it.  Grab your check and let them figure it out for themselves.  What, did you think you would get a bonus for being complicit with the handover?


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## Buffalo21

I had my meeting, to say I’m not impressed would be a major understatement. They were vague on some questions, somewhat evasive on others and from initial impressions is they are not really sure what kind of company they actually bought. They are basically a hedge fund operators/private equity bankers. 

My impression was they think they bought a cash cow, but they have no concept of the industrial boiler business, the cyclic sales patterns, the effect of weather, the technical expertise required, the required DEC/EPA ramifications, etc, etc. I believe they saw the top edge of the cyclic cash flow curve and really did not go much in-depth investigation. I guessing they will be shocked, shocked I tell you, when reality finally sets in.

All ready they are talking about improvement to the profit ratio of the service department, they implied they wanted guidance in who could be either replaced or made redundant, I explained I would not be a hatchet man for them. They were quite firm that my employment was key to their future plans, even offering me a substantial pay increase and a guarantied 5 yr work/employment contract (No firm terms at this point)

At this point I don’t have that required “warm and fuzzy” feeling.

I know I have approximately another year, of booked work, that I have to perform, after that it’s all open, the rest of the servicemen are basically on a day to day status now.  I expect that the story is going to move into a downward spiral from here on, I‘m not real optimistic.


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## kb58

You have to consider your situation independent of what they say - will you be happy to stay? If you want to stay, (and credit to who mentioned it above), play up how you can make them money, since that's all they understand.


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## pdentrem

Watch out for a non comp. They cannot stop you from working in your trade unless they pay you during the time of the non comp.
Pierre


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## Flyinfool

I had one employer that tried to get me to sign a non comp right after the time they were laying me off. Like that was gonna happen. Their competitor was going to be my first stop with resume in hand. They even tried to tell me that there was a LAW that said I had to sign it.


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## pdentrem

I know a couple guys who were being pushed and found that the law was on their side not the employers. Judge told the companys to either pay up or go away.
Pierre


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## C-Bag

Those corporate raiders are the scourge of the working man. Very few co’s have been taken over because the pirates have a passion for what the co was doing. Cash cow with a pension plan they can liquidate in the two personal experiences I’ve had.

A good friend had a company he and his brother had created and even though they were small they had tech that was way ahead of all the others in their field. Raiders came in and basically told them they could sell or it would be a hostile takeover. So they sold but were retained because the raiders didn’t know squat. Within 6mo they had basically destroyed the company by basically their greed. They wanted to get rid of 60% of the employees and put the brothers on salary. They both were working 3x’s as many hours for 1/4 the pay. They both left as much as out of disgust as for their health.

The last wage slave tour I came in 10yrs after the co was bought out by a foreign co. I called it a reputation laundering scheme as nobody would buy the foreign machine but would buy the American made model. More and more they kept squeezing us on the floor taking away benefits (they had kept the original pension for the legacy guys and only offered 401k)and then the final straw happened when the owner installed his son as CEO and he started squeezing out our manufacturing of our mods that made our version of their design popular. All they wanted us to do was install the machines they sent us. Then cut benefits and doubled our portion of the cost. That was the last straw.


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## jbolt

Having been self employed most of my working career I have not had to deal with working within the corporate world. My good friend had worked for a large tech firm for 15 years when they got boought out by an offshore corp. The first act was to replace all the upper management with their own. Within six months the layoffs began. His new manager could'nt stomach the work and passed it off to my friend to do. On the third round of layoffs his name showed up on the list but because he was doing them he just ignored it. He did that for four years until a new manager came in and figured it out. 

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## Janderso

Buffalo,
I hope you do well with your new owners.
What are we looking for? I've been at the same place for 35 years, maybe I'm not qualified to have an opinion.

To be treated with respect, to have the freedom to manage or perform your job the way you think is best, To be paid a fair wage, to have a sense of a future and be given a chance to grow with the company.

Good employees are hard to find and harder to keep.
I think any new management team should know this reality.


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## C-Bag

Janderso said:


> Good employees are hard to find and harder to keep.
> I think any new management team should know this reality.


A good employee might be hard to find but are not hard to keep. I’ve never left anyplace that was treating me well. i can see a good employee leaving if they are moving out of the area. Managers around here knew there was 16 applicants for every job and treated us like, you don’t like it? There 16 others out there who will do it for less.

When they brought in a new floor manager I was shocked to find out from him I was seen as their #1 go too guy because none of them managers ever treated like that. But when they slashed our benefits by handing out this little chicken handout with our checks at noon I knew something was rotten in Denmark. So I went to my Forman and told him I was history and come and inspect my toolbox, he knew I was going to be furious. The other formen came around and saw me off but nobody tried to talk me out of it. No managers came around either. I punched out at noon at that was the last time I punched a clock. Best thing that I ever did.


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## Suzuki4evr

Buffalo21 said:


> At 2:30 pm this afternoon, I received a phone call, from my former (as of yesterday) owner, he would received his asking price, plus 20%, if he walked away immediately. He took the check and signed the papers, so at this point I have a new owner (or owners).
> 
> The new principal owner called me this late this afternoon, he promised me nothing would change, business would go on as usual (we shall see), I expressed my concerns and serious doubts about the old owner leaving, so abruptly, but he tried to reassure me all would be well. I have to be at the company office on Tuesday morning, for a face to face meeting, something I’m not really looking forward to.
> 
> now where did I put that resume..........


Good luck to you.


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## Janderso

C-Bag said:


> A good employee might be hard to find but are not hard to keep


I would agree to an extent. Like you say, unless they are leaving the area.
We lost one of the best to the Seattle area, another pro retired and another moved to Roseburg OR.

We do have 3 guys left (technicians) that have been with us for over 20 years, we must be doing something right.
I'm always concerned, some dealer may steal one of our master techs. There is such a shortage of qualified auto technicians that dealers are paying bonuses of over $20,000, moving expenses, guaranteed wages of over $130,000 a year.

I know of one dealer in the bay area, that put a down payment on a new home for one of his new hires, as part of the deal. That's big money. Houses in the SF Bay area are over a million.

Many auto techs are going to city and county jobs for the retirement packages.

It's getting cut throat out there. Now you guys know why the hourly rate may be over $200. We are $135 =cheap!


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## 7milesup

$130k to wrench on a car??!


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## MikeWi

7milesup said:


> $130k to wrench on a car??!


It's not that easy any more. Cars aren't built to be serviced, and it's getting harder and harder to work on them.


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## C-Bag

A whole lot has changed since I bailed on working on cars in '89. They had become very hard to work on for the independent mech forcing me to tell more and more of my customers they'd have to go to the dealer. Especially for electronic probs. This was obviously the plan. Meanwhile the guys I knew from my time with the dealership's I'd worked in, the trend was to hire trainees and have them supervised by a lead man. Of course that was all on flat rate. 

I was shocked when I took in our Chevy Volt for a warranty repair and offered to compensate the mech for his inspection and was told no need because they are all on salary. I had no idea what guys make now. That's more than my psychologist wife with a PHd. My times have changed.


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## Nogoingback

7milesup said:


> $130k to wrench on a car??!


Have a look at this...









						Bay Area Housing Market: Prices, Trends, Forecast 2022-2023
					

Bay Area housing market slows down with home sales declining by 43%. Here are the Bay Area housing trends and predictions for the next year.




					www.noradarealestate.com


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## Janderso

7milesup said:


> $130k to wrench on a car??!


And then some.
It's more than wrenching a car. There are electronics in every component these days. You want to flush your brake fluid? You have to engage the vehicles chassis module to allow for the actuators to work to allow for the fluid to drain through the anti-skid modules.
Engine and transmission electronics are so complex, you really need to be smart to do this right.
If you are just busting tires, changing brakes, shocks, suspension components then that's still old school.
Electric mirrors, variable rate wipers, even cruise control has electronic modules.
A hack would plug into the data link, pull a code that directs you to a bad sensor. That doesn't mean the sensor is bad, it just gives you a place to start.
There are very few diagnosticians in this business. many shops only have one. he/she diagnoses the issue then it goes to a parts replacer.
Sorry, I do go on.
I had a call yesterday from a dealer in the wine country. He just got audited by Ford. He asked me how we recruit techs and how we keep them.
We had a long conversation.
We are flat rate, they are hourly.


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## Janderso

Nogoingback said:


> Have a look at this...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bay Area Housing Market: Prices, Trends, Forecast 2022-2023
> 
> 
> Bay Area housing market slows down with home sales declining by 43%. Here are the Bay Area housing trends and predictions for the next year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.noradarealestate.com


Techs in the bay area would never work for only $130,000 a year.
40% increase year over year home values.
Sound familiar?
There was a bubble that burst back in 2008. It's gonna happen again.


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## Toolmaker51

kb58 said:


> *Case in point, most companies state up front that they are "employment at will" meaning that they can lay you off with zero notice.                            You, on the other hand, are to give weeks (if not months) notice if you plan to leave.  Happens all the time, make decision, follow through or not, just don't demonstrate or convey for effect.
> So, yes, do your resume, as it's a nice touch of reality to see how the market is doing and see what you're worth elsewhere. This isn't necessarily a bad thing either way. I believe in this, not the version 'professional' resume writers pitch. Ever meet one who knew a planer from a boring mill?*





Winegrower said:


> Actually this is a rare opportunity to show you think like an owner, not a self-centered employee.  *Make good suggestions on increasing revenue, lowering costs.   Point out any inefficiencies,  and what could be done to improve that.** Disagree somewhat here, don't make them. Hint what you have, ask "What's it worth?".*





Winegrower said:


> Too many people seem to think it’s a good idea to be suspicious, maybe to act like you’re irreplaceable, how maybe you’ll walk if there’s anything you don’t like.   Of course you can do or be any of these things...*just keep it to yourself.    110%! No union needed.*


    Read through entire 4 page thread. Truths in every post; those above kicked it off, all rang in to reinforce those. Here's mine;
I perused job-specific ads on a near daily basis. Knew opportunities in a very up-to-date manner. Didn't matter when that changed from print to internet, my resume was always on some desk somewhere, with whatever caveat fit "selling my house, I know welding too, relocating to tend elderly parents, fiancee has new job, company was sold, planning retirement, fed-up with corporate BS, want to live closer to outdoor recreation....".
    Maybe 3 places in 50+ years, I had _their _back 100%. One was USN, 26 years worth. Most just OK to work at, some barely. When I'd had my fill, it was new to them, kept whatever plans to myself.
    When they'd hint of adverse change, I was ready - company meeting, one on one, out on the floor..."_Watch me; I'll show what these keys are for_". Some would talk me out of it, at a cost; that's what compensation means. Compensation comes in many forms.
     A good friend still is where we both worked, a selfish filthy owner-operator tool room. They spend hours, MANY hours, tuning what ever recreation gear for upcoming season, all year long. 2-1/3 guys generating all the receivables to support 6 full timers. But the friend can't get an hour off-clock here and there (or keys for a Saturday) to build a fixture to trim cymbals with edge splitting. He is a professional musician with a day job and good machinist. There are machines I offered good cash for NO one uses, Thompson grinder, M&M keyseater, Robot grinder, die filer, restroom lockers; no dice. I equate that as compensation too, great unappreciated iron that would help me.
     Finally, non-comp agreements. Talk about insecurity complexes. Or is it extortion? Yeah, while I'm there. Sign it, cover your tracks. "I saw it on the internet...". Make proving it cost them up the wazoo.
     Once, they kept final check. I wouldn't sign on exit, my box was already out the door, rolled her in elsewhere by weeks end. There is no tool in my box, no memory or design in my head, not put there myself.


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## Nogoingback

Janderso said:


> And then some.
> It's more than wrenching a car. There are electronics in every component these days. You want to flush your brake fluid? You have to engage the vehicles chassis module to allow for the actuators to work to allow for the fluid to drain through the anti-skid modules.
> Engine and transmission electronics are so complex, you really need to be smart to do this right.
> If you are just busting tires, changing brakes, shocks, suspension components then that's still old school.
> Electric mirrors, variable rate wipers, even cruise control has electronic modules.
> A hack would plug into the data link, pull a code that directs you to a bad sensor. That doesn't mean the sensor is bad, it just gives you a place to start.
> There are very few diagnosticians in this business. many shops only have one. he/she diagnoses the issue then it goes to a parts replacer.
> Sorry, I do go on.
> I had a call yesterday from a dealer in the wine country. He just got audited by Ford. He asked me how we recruit techs and how we keep them.
> We had a long conversation.
> We are flat rate, they are hourly.


That's why when I buy a car, I always buy the base model with the least electronic content I can.  Too much stuff to fail out in the future, 
and we keep our cars a long time so it will be an issue. You can't escape it though:  After 10 years the battery in my car failed and I 
discovered that a battery change includes reprogramming a ************* computer so the alternator and battery can play nicely together.
This is simply idiotic, unless you only drive your car within a 20 mile radius of a dealer.


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## C-Bag

My truck which I bought new in '16 has no electric windows, no electric locks, as basic as I could find. My bane is electronics, I'm a mechanical kinda guy. My favorite car was my pre 68 VW's. Even as simple as they were the majority of owners didn't work on them. The wiring harness was nothing. They were transportation, plain and simple.  In contrast I bought a 75 Rabbit as the aircools went away. The crazy thing had like 30 some odd fuses! The silly carburetor had linkage that would wear out in 6,000mi! They flipped the whole idea and made it stupid to work on, and even the dealer was hard pressed to keep up. Too many times this complication has bit them on the a$$ when the electronics are so complicated even the dealer can't fix them when they get bugs. It's the main reason I got out because it's not just expertise, I could only take so much irritation. Always having to be an apologist/whipping boy for stupid  designs  I had no input on. I was better at navigating that mine field working for the last co because I became part of R&D working with the engineers. Then seagull managers came in. You know the folks who come in, squawk and doodoo all over everything and leave the mess for us to clean up.


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## 7milesup

Disagree about the union statement above.
I worked for a Warren Buffet company.  Like most investors, he wanted to squeeze the last dime out of his employees.  Anything you may have heard about him treating his employees well is BS.  In 2003 or early '04 we were part of the Teamsters; a completely worthless union.  We formed our own in house union.  Company said they could not pay us more (I was making a measly $54K as a Captain on a business jet).  Let me say that I was not motivated to make that whole company work out and I was in the STFD camp with all my might.  It was horrible.  Pilots against management.  Pilots against schedulers.  
Dec. of '05, with our new union in place for over 1.5yrs at that point, the company all of a sudden saw the light.  They were going to go broke without the pilots help.  Literally overnight my pay went from $54 to mid $90's.  Still not great but heading in the right direction. And guess what... 2006 was the most profitable year the company had had up until that point.  No chit.
If I was still there I would be very close to $200k.  Even back then I had full health coverage for the family.  Didn't cost me a dime.  50% match on our 401k.  Vision, dental, vacation.  Turned out to be a nice gig.  Company is still making big money.  Imagine that.  Without the union, none of that would have happened.  
I hope the Amazon people stick it to Bezos like no other.  The only way these companies are going to pay living wages is if there is concerted effort from the employees.


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## martik777

Nogoingback said:


> That's why when I buy a car, I always buy the base model with the least electronic content I can.  Too much stuff to fail out in the future,
> and we keep our cars a long time so it will be an issue. You can't escape it though:  After 10 years the battery in my car failed and I
> discovered that a battery change includes reprogramming a ************* computer so the alternator and battery can play nicely together.
> This is simply idiotic, unless you only drive your car within a 20 mile radius of a dealer.


When we bought our last car (Volt), they told us there were 50 CPU's in it. I don't care anymore, did all my repairs for decades, now I'm gonna just enjoy the car and no gas stations (well once a year maybe lol)


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## martik777

Janderso said:


> Techs in the bay area would never work for only $130,000 a year.
> 40% increase year over year home values.
> Sound familiar?
> There was a bubble that burst back in 2008. It's gonna happen again.


Insanity in Canada right now, Vancouver and Toronto areas selling at $500,000 over asking, fixer upper in Vancouver is pushing 1.7M - I'm tempted to sell and buy back in a year for 30-40% less.


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## matthewsx

I’m looking at doing the lower control arm on my 2004 Cadillac SRX. Have the feeling I’m gonna wish it was electronics

I live in a place where mortgages are way above what I could afford if I was starting out.

When I was running my shop in Michigan there were almost no auto techs to be found. The one I had came to me but only part time because he had another gig. He has his own shop now....


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## Toolmaker51

C-Bag said:


> ....seagull managers came in. You know the folks who come in, squawk and doodoo all over everything and leave the mess for us to clean up.


They can squawk too?


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## Toolmaker51

Janderso said:


> Techs in the bay area would never work for only $130,000 a year.
> 40% increase year over year home values.
> Sound familiar?
> There was a bubble that burst back in 2008. It's gonna happen again.


Not quite; 2008 was engineered, mis-engineered yes, but engineered all the same. Next IS imminent, really just a correction to overvaluation by combined market; owners/ realtors, but the real culprit are buyers. Any one in a recent transaction is going to get bit.

I rent out two houses, way under market, encouraging tenants saving to ride over the next bubble, eventually as buyer instead of renter. They are too young to understand and go bats**t crazy for toys. So I get loooo-ng term residents making my mortgage, insurance and tax payments, and write off remainder.
Only way you can _buy_ karma......beside exceptional posts in forums like these?

I know the split exists about unions. I try to be respectful of both sides, but definitely no fan. Can't think of any absolutely critical outside of miners. The ne plus ultra union is an individual; assertive, proactive and willing to stand out not just up. If they haven't what you want, go down the road. A broad resume is the killer trump card.


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## matthewsx

My resume is only as broad as I want it to be for any particular job. I made my choice to not be union many, many years ago; maybe the right one or maybe not, I married well and at least some of the decisions we made worked out well.

Got hit with real estate in 2008 in Arizona (had a nice shop there) and it took another 11 years to work it out but now I'm happy with the outcome. Sure it would have been nice to not loose what we did but at least we learned the lesson.

Real Estate works on hype, stock market too. But at the end of the day you can live in a house, Mutual Fund not so much.

John


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## matthewsx

,


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## 7milesup

The aviation industry is probably one of the worst when it comes to jumping ship.  Unlike nearly every other profession (doctor, lawyer, engineer, etc), when you jump from one airline to another, you start at the bottom. The companies look at your flight hours and ratings and you get to sit in the right seat for the next 10+ years.  The only way around that is to go into corporate flying.  Then you might be able to work into management $$$.   BUT, as soon as there is a downturn in the economy, the first thing to go when the investors are not happy is that shiny white jet in the shiny white hangar.

EDIT:  As I mentioned earlier, we were Teamsters. A garbage union.  So we formed our own which has become a model of aviation unions.  So, it is possible to stand up for yourself by making a union what you want it to be.  It seems to be lost on folks that the 40 hour workweek, holiday pay, 5 day workweek and a myriad of other "perks" that people take for granted are only because of unions.


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## brino

martik777 said:


> When we bought our last car (Volt), they told us there were 50 CPU's in it.



Yeah but they believe it's a selling feature!

For me it a warning.

-brino


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## pdentrem

Any modern car has many systems and thus CPUs on board. Mechanically most things are the same as any pre computer car. It is the control systems are getting more complex. Same as comparing a early 172 Cessna to a 787. What I was amazed at, my neighbor had a 200? Ram 1500 pickup which the voltage regulator failed and it cost $1500 to fix, where my ‘69 Chevelle the regulator was about $20!
Pierre


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## 7milesup

pdentrem said:


> 200? Ram 1500 pickup which the voltage regulator failed and it *cost $1500 to fix,* where my ‘69 Chevelle the regulator was about $20!
> Pierre


Reference the $130k+ tech compensation above.  LOL


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## Liljoebrshooter

I am a 28 year union worker.   We are currently going through contract negotiations.  I  work at a factory that builds refrigerated food service equipment.  They drew out the covid card last year to get all the government money they could muster, literally millions of dollars.  Now during the negotiations they want to literally rape our rights of our current contract.    Occasionally you will hear someone complain about paying union dues.   My response is, do you think you would have any of your paid vacation days,  holidays and all the other perks of this job?  There are definitely 2 sides to this. 
Joe


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## Ulma Doctor

7milesup said:


> $130k to wrench on a car??!


Don’t ever discount the worth of a mechanic
We mechanics are the ONLY thing between repair and the boneyard


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## Nogoingback

C-Bag said:


> My truck which I bought new in '16 has no electric windows, no electric locks, as basic as I could find. My bane is electronics, I'm a mechanical kinda guy. My favorite car was my pre 68 VW's. Even as simple as they were the majority of owners didn't work on them. The wiring harness was nothing. They were transportation, plain and simple.  In contrast I bought a 75 Rabbit as the aircools went away. The crazy thing had like 30 some odd fuses! The silly carburetor had linkage that would wear out in 6,000mi! They flipped the whole idea and made it stupid to work on, and even the dealer was hard pressed to keep up. Too many times this complication has bit them on the a$$ when the electronics are so complicated even the dealer can't fix them when they get bugs. It's the main reason I got out because it's not just expertise, I could only take so much irritation. Always having to be an apologist/whipping boy for stupid  designs  I had no input on. I was better at navigating that mine field working for the last co because I became part of R&D working with the engineers. Then seagull managers came in. You know the folks who come in, squawk and doodoo all over everything and leave the mess for us to clean up.


I grew up in a family of air-cooled VW owners: my Dad, my Brother and I all had them.  In the 70's I bought one of those Rabbits and it 
was the worst car I've ever owned.  Absolute piece of junk, and it was too bad because I liked the way it drove.  The air cooled. cars
were well made, but somehow VW forgot that quality matters when they designed the water cooled cars.


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## Larry$

For any employee that knows more about the business than the owners, that employee should start his own business. He could correct all the errors and become rich.


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## Nogoingback

brino said:


> Yeah but they believe it's a selling feature!
> 
> For me it a warning.
> 
> -brino


You nailed it Brino.  People have come to believe that more electronic widgets are inherently better somehow, and the result is
a lot of simple, reliable products now have become much more complex and expensive because of the electronic content tacked
on.  Sometimes this is a good thing, and sometimes it isn't.  We have a Honda van with 60K which has been completely 
reliable, but we recently had to change a motor mount and the part cost $560.00!  Why?  Because it's an electronically controlled
hydraulic mount that changes dampening depending on driving conditions.  Clever idea, but I for one would rather have a simpler,
cheaper part that lasts longer than a few years since I apparently have more mount replacements in my future.


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## pdentrem

Working on my ‘36 Chrysler today on some wiring clean up. Easy peasy!
Pierre


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## matthewsx

Ulma Doctor said:


> Don’t ever discount the worth of a mechanic
> We mechanics are the ONLY thing between repair and the boneyard


I always told my customers....

Maintenance is cheaper than repair

Repair is cheaper than replacement

If it wasn't I would tell them that too....

John


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## Nogoingback

Larry$ said:


> For any employee that knows more about the business than the owners, that employee should start his own business. He could correct all the errors and become rich.


Do you really believe that all business owners are completely knowledgable, intelligent and never make mistakes?   Is there anyone
that knows it all and can't benefit from the knowledge and experience of others?


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## C-Bag

Nogoingback said:


> I grew up in a family of air-cooled VW owners: my Dad, my Brother and I all had them.  In the 70's I bought one of those Rabbits and it
> was the worst car I've ever owned.  Absolute piece of junk, and it was too bad because I liked the way it drove.  The air cooled. cars
> were well made, but somehow VW forgot that quality matters when they designed the water cooled cars.


I started as a mech in an all VW wrecking yard doing nothing but rebuilding one engine after another. The dealership HATED my boss who was an old wildcat machinist who taught himeself how to rebuild the engines then taught me. 6yrs later after buying my Rabbit I ended up at the dealership and the service manager did everything in his power to mess with me. The rest of the mechanic's thought it was funny, I didn't. But I saw from the inside how the whole thing went awry. I don't know if you remember the hype when the Rabbit came out that it was supposedly designed with input from a German master mechanic, huh?

There were and still are so many things that just don't make sense. I had to replace the rear seal(a common problem that would make it so you couldn't get it into gear because it would cause the clutch to drag and stay slightly engaged) on my Rabbit and luckily I got some help from the other service manager and was able to do it under warranty. I got warned this is going to be odd. When I asked what he meant by that he said the pressure plate is bolted to the crank, not the flywheel like every other car in the universe. I thought he was messing with me until I took it apart. WTH were they taking or smoking? Insane stuff like the thermostat went on my wife 05 Cabrio. The rats nest of plumbing is just insane but nowhere could I find the thermostat. Went to the parts store who had one and asked if I could see the parts blow up. The thermostat was on the _intake of the water pump! _


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## pdentrem

Basically all VW after the Beetle are way over designed.


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## matthewsx

Larry$ said:


> For any employee that knows more about the business than the owners, that employee should start his own business. He could correct all the errors and become rich.


I had an employee that actually wrote me a letter stating pretty much the above. He was also an alcoholic which I found out from my HR friend could be considered a disability under employment law.

It was a small town so I kinda knew this when I hired him but small engine mechanics aren't exactly falling out of the trees so I was willing to take a chance. He was good for a while before he started drinking again which was shortly before he wrote this letter (I had been gone for 2 weeks getting my dad moved out of his home).

Turned out he was also pretty unreliable coming into work when scheduled so I put him on an improvement plan and did my best to become a better boss.

He eventually left on his own accord and got another job which he seems to be pretty stable in.

We're still on good terms and I can honestly say I helped make a good worker out of him.

John


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## matthewsx

pdentrem said:


> Basically all VW after the Beetle are way over designed.


Design requirements have changed somewhat since WWII though....


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## Nogoingback

matthewsx said:


> Design requirements have changed somewhat since WWII though....


Absolutely true, but the need for reliability and quality never changes.


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## pdentrem

Job security?


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## C-Bag

Nogoingback said:


> Absolutely true, but the need for reliability and quality never changes.


My SO before we got married Cabrio had been an electrical nightmare which got worse as time went on. Truly a ghost in the machine type thing that she just got used to driving with the “check the engine” light on constantly. Never once did she get out of the shop without a $1200 bill and the engine light would be back on in a month or two.

She decided she was thinking about the VW Eon. She loved the ragtop on the Cabrio which was simple and actually the nicest feature about the car. The one local VW dealer had lost their franchise so we had to go all the way down to Fresno to see one. The salesman couldn’t wait to impress me with its BMW designed folding hardtop which he gleefully called the Transformer. You have to see that believe it. All these like 16 parts in motion, just barely missing each other..........I was horrified. My SO was delighted until she looked at me. She said I looked like I was going to faint. I felt like it.


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## pdentrem

2007 Passat with tracking headlights. Stopped working and never could be fixed properly after that. Dealer was not capable in doing anything. So locked in forward position and left there for time eternal.


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## Larry$

Nogoingback said:


> Do you really believe that all business owners are completely knowledgable, intelligent and never make mistakes?   Is there anyone
> that knows it all and can't benefit from the knowledge and experience of others?


I didn't say that! Did I touch a nerve?


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## matthewsx

Nogoingback said:


> Absolutely true, but the need for reliability and quality never changes.


Also true, cars now routinely go 6000 between oil changes. Did the spark plugs on my Cadillac at 105k. Years past that many miles would have been a complete rebuild or junkyard.

Not to mention how much more survivable auto accidents are now.

I grew up wrenching on cars from the 60’s and 70’s. As much as I love them if I’m being honest today’s cars are more efficient, safer, and longer lasting than those from the past.

Auto techs work hard for the money they make, often with a ton of pressure to get it right the first time. I just dropped a couple of hundred bucks on tools that will hopefully save me thousands on the projects I have coming up. I’d love to just drop my cars off at the shop but since I have the skills (and YouTube) I’m gonna get after it myself.

John


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## Nogoingback

Larry$ said:


> I didn't say that! Did I touch a nerve?


Well, I retired a couple of years ago from a company that I spent 27 years with.  It was, in many respects a good company, and 
a profitable one.  But, the hubris and arrogance of management was pretty much off the charts most of the time.  They constantly
claimed to listen to their workers, (and their managers) and even would do surveys, but in reality they didn't at all.   A number of 
years ago they got rid of their CEO, who was doing a good job operationally but wasn't hitting a profit target they had in mind.
So, they brought in an accountant from the parent company who grandly announced he would DOUBLE the profit margin in 6 
months. (This in a company that had been cutting costs for years.).  This genius was presumably a good accountant, but apparently
knew nothing, zip, nada about how the company operated.  Despite advice from knowledgable, experienced managers he basically
ran us off the rails within the next 12 months, and needless to say didn't hit his profit goal.  This is an extreme example, but 
characteristic of the management culture at that place that believed that anyone lower on the food chain didn't know anything worthwhile.
Sad.


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## Nogoingback

C-Bag said:


> My SO before we got married Cabrio had been an electrical nightmare which got worse as time went on. Truly a ghost in the machine type thing that she just got used to driving with the “check the engine” light on constantly. Never once did she get out of the shop without a $1200 bill and the engine light would be back on in a month or two.
> 
> She decided she was thinking about the VW Eon. She loved the ragtop on the Cabrio which was simple and actually the nicest feature about the car. The one local VW dealer had lost their franchise so we had to go all the way down to Fresno to see one. The salesman couldn’t wait to impress me with its BMW designed folding hardtop which he gleefully called the Transformer. You have to see that believe it. All these like 16 parts in motion, just barely missing each other..........I was horrified. My SO was delighted until she looked at me. She said I looked like I was going to faint. I felt like it.


After my experience with the Rabbit I swore off buying another VW, but years later I considered buying a diesel after renting a diesel car
in England and liking it.  So, I basically asked every VW owner I could find about their cars.  Neighbors, friends, people in parking lots:
I asked them all.  I got the same response almost every time:  Love the car but reliability is terrible.  I passed on the diesel option...


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## C-Bag

Nogoingback said:


> Well, I retired a couple of years ago from a company that I spent 27 years with.  It was, in many respects a good company, and
> a profitable one.  But, the hubris and arrogance of management was pretty much off the charts most of the time.  They constantly
> claimed to listen to their workers, (and their managers) and even would do surveys, but in reality they didn't at all.   A number of
> years ago they got rid of their CEO, who was doing a good job operationally but wasn't hitting a profit target they had in mind.
> So, they brought in an accountant from the parent company who grandly announced he would DOUBLE the profit margin in 6
> months. (This in a company that had been cutting costs for years.).  This genius was presumably a good accountant, but apparently
> knew nothing, zip, nada about how the company operated.  Despite advice from knowledgable, experienced managers he basically
> ran us off the rails within the next 12 months, and needless to say didn't hit his profit goal.  This is an extreme example, but
> characteristic of the management culture at that place that believed that anyone lower on the food chain didn't know anything worthwhile.
> Sad.


I was assigned this job because the sales dept. had gotten us tangled up with OCD customer who was running us ragged. I and another who was deemed the best had spent several all nighters on what was basically cosmetics. But was satisfied with our field fix and so that why I was assigned to replicate what we’d done on the next machine to be delivered. The head guy of the parent company wandered by and said I was taking too much time and basically wanted me to slop it together like they do overseas at the home company. I explained I had to do it this way or the customer would reject it and we’d be back down there pulling an all nighter. He proceeded to pull all the managers right next to where I was still working away. He was furiously calling me names because I knew cuss words in French and the managers tried to explain to him, even showing him the bills for the double overtime, and still he cussed me all in French. I was getting madder and madder and they walked away just I was ready to use my 4” grinder on him. As I was standing there trying to unfreeze from the rage one of the old hands came up and said “management is like a tree full of monkeys” that got me, “how’s that?”. The ones at the top only look down and see smiling monkeys, while us at the bottom only see monkey butts. That made me laugh and as I looked up the head guy was staring at us glaring. I just kept laughing.....


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## savarin

If management were honest and moral there would be no need for unions.


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## C-Bag

savarin said:


> If management were honest and moral there would be no need for unions.


Ain’t that the truth.


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## martik777

savarin said:


> If management were honest and moral there would be no need for unions.


Unions screw the public purse over as well, Teachers here make almost 100k with a gold plated indexed pension plan for basically part time work and whine about their benefits every time their union contract comes up.


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## C-Bag

Teachers here in the US start at around $35. Last I heard only admins make 100k. Have to fight constantly for fair benefits. Put in as many hours at night as they did in class. Even buy materials that used to be supplied but now aren’t. Most don’t make more than 2yrs because it’s so hard. At least now mechanic can make a fair wage. That’s more than I can say for our teachers.


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## pdentrem

Friend was teaching in a public school 30 years ago for 12K in Buffalo NY, while another was teaching in Northern Ontario making 65K. Even with the dollar exchange it was still a huge difference! Depends where you are for what the pay is. Big city is more likely to pay more verses the small town in the middle of nowhere.
Pierre


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## Larry$

A very long time ago I was a member of the Teamsters, for a short time. Everything worked on the bribe system. Want to get out of the hiring hall? Give the guy at the desk $100. Work stoppages constantly. If you worked too fast you were warned about what kind of accidents happen to people that do that.


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## C-Bag

My Dad was a Teamster for 40yrs. When he retired they broke the Union and everybody lost all benefits and no pension. Not even 401k. And went to straight commission with no base pay. My Dad never made great $$ but we had good medical for the whole family that paid for my mom extensive cancer bills and left him very comfortable in his remaining years until he passed last May. He never wanted for anything.

he always told me your union is only as good as your shop steward. He helped pull strings for me to be hired as a customer mechanic up in Yosemite. Only the mechanic, buss drivers and maintenance were Teamsters. Everybody else was AFLCIO. Now there’s a joke. They made min wage, and the steward was a puppet of the of Curry Co. No benefits, nada. Meanwhile we made twice min and got medical and dental. Dues weren’t bad. We had a great shop steward. Benjamin Franklin, a man from the streets of Oakland and was well versed in Union rules. He was messed with from all sides and kept everybody in line. RIP Bennie.


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## Toolmaker51

pdentrem said:


> Job security? (and why mechanics hate engineers, machinists hate engineers, plumbers hate utility engineers, carpenters hate architects; you get the idea...)


 
A Designers Poem​ 
The Designer;

The designer sat at his drafting board
A wealth of knowledge in his head was stored
Like "What can be done on a radial drill
Or a turret lathe or a vertical mill?”

But above all things a knack he had
Of driving gentle machinists mad.
So he mused as he thoughtfully scratched his bean
"Just how can I make this thing hard to machine?

If I make this perfect body straight
The job had ought to come out first rate
But would be so easy to turn and bore
That it would never make a machinist sore

So I'll put a compound taper there
And a couple of angles to make them swear
And brass would work for this little gear
But its too damned easy to work I fear

So just to make the machinist squeal
I'll make him mill it from tungsten steel
And I'll put these holes that hold the cap
Down underneath where they can't be tapped

Now if they can make this it'll just be luck
Cause it can't be held by dog or chuck
And it can't be planed and it cant be ground
So I feel my design is unusually sound.

And he shouted in glee, "Success at last!
This dam thing can't even be cast.


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## Toolmaker51

savarin said:


> If management were honest and moral there would be no need for unions.


Likely, if not at least better probability.

If management unions were honest and moral, there wouldn't be immense campaign funds  unions for liberal politicians.
Both depend on those available lowest common denominators to exist. 
Ain't no free lunch...

When a group is paid equally despite unequal skill-set, across the board predictable raises, when all-for-one turns against handful of guys with 9 kids who _cannot_ afford to strike, where a state vote strikes down right to work; who do you think pulls those strings? 
That unions campaigned for improvement of conditions that's one thing, conducting legalized extortion entirely different.
There are few ills not the work of lobbyists, lawyers, and politicians. Good work for witless toads that can't get a real job.


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## Buffalo21

savarin said:


> If management were honest and moral there would be no need for unions.


For the management to be moral and honest, it would also requires the employees to be moral and honest.


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## pontiac428

Everybody should be entitled to health coverage, pension, and paid time off. I worked hard half my life without it while the business owners got bigger houses, better boats, and sent their kids to college. And some still insist our nation doesn’t have a caste system. Our homeless camps look like the slums of Mumbai, while CEOs are worth hundreds of bIllions of dollars, and got that way in 20 years. And some think unions are the blood suckers? Please.


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## matthewsx

I have many opinions here but shall refrain because this place has rules and I will choose to follow them.

I have been both a worker and a business owner (who also worked) and understand how people can be passionate about their roles in making this whole thing hum. 

Yes, great nations should treat their people with compassion and provide for those truly in need. I think I might have read that in a book somewhere....

John


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## Larry$

"Everybody should be entitled to health coverage, pension, and paid time off."
I think you left off one of the most important ones.  
Food, everyone should be entitled to be provided with good food. At least a $250 per week grocery charge card. 

When I got called to jury duty, we were told our employers had to continue paying us for that time. I was self employed. 
My employer refused, just like for paid time off, health insurance and pension. Cheap bastard.


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## pontiac428

What I left off is dignity. Many think that dignity should only be awarded to others that meet the expectations of their judgment. Basic human dignity is critical, and I want no part in a society that thinks it must be earned. Just look at how irritable and vocal people get when stuck in line at the grocery store when the person in front hassles with paying in food stamps. Then the one doing the complaining waddles (not from injury but obesity) out to the handicap space nearest the entrance and drives off with a scowl. It blows the mind! Employers can dignify workers with benefits to prevent them from being sunk by a minor or major life event. It's the dignified thing to do.


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## MikeWi

There's a channels on Reddit devoted to pro mechanics working on cars. You can see examples of the BS that mechanics have to put up with as a result of the design of the vehicle. These guys don't have it much easier than we do working in the garage. 
I mentioned before somewhere that I watched a documentary on how cars are designed and built, and basically someone creates a pretty design, and then the engineers are told what they have to cram into it. No wonder you can't service a car these days.


----------



## C-Bag

pontiac428 said:


> What I left off is dignity. Many think that dignity should only be awarded to others that meet the expectations of their judgment. Basic human dignity is critical, and I want no part in a society that thinks it must be earned. Just look at how irritable and vocal people get when stuck in line at the grocery store when the person in front hassles with paying in food stamps. Then the one doing the complaining waddles (not from injury but obesity) out to the handicap space nearest the entrance and drives off with a scowl. It blows the mind! Employers can dignify workers with benefits to prevent them from being sunk by a minor or major life event. It's the dignified thing to do.


Interesting angle “dignity”. As the only country in the industrialized world that doesn’t have guaranteed medical care, dignity is a fleeting thing as it can go away with one medical diagnoses. The overwhelming reason for bankruptcy is medical bills.

n.
The quality or state of being worthy of esteem or respect.
n.
Inherent nobility and worth.
Add to this most of us equate having a job with inherent worth. I know I always felt that way. But out of the 9 places I worked only one had limited medical. It’s been programmed into me to see meds as part of the reason to put up with a crappy job. That’s what kept me in the last place even though the pay was totally lacking in dignity compared to my qualifications. I can only wonder what “work” would be like if we had universal healthcare.

The OP was already working at home in his own shop. I would think if the company wanted to get the job done right they would have to contact him anyway. He would be free to bid the job at a rate that would reflect his worth in knowledge and investment in equipment. And if it was worth it take the job or tell them go away.


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## Larry$

C-Bag said:


> He would be free to bid the job at a rate that would reflect his worth in knowledge and investment in equipment.


There is a huge difference inbeing able to bid a job to reflect those things and getting the job. 
As a one man shop I set goals. One was to have a certain amount of $ made every day. If things didn't go as hoped I had to work late. I still - usually went home having made my $ goal but it may have taken an extra 3 hours. When I was an employer and I had to pay an employee for those extra 3 hours, perhaps as over time, or the next day. I would lose money on that job. The employee met his goal, I didn't.


----------

