# Grandpa's old 16" gap, part 2



## 63redtudor (Sep 8, 2019)

Well, it has been a year and a half since I was offered my grandfather's old 16" gap-bed lathe. I now finally have the lathe in my shop. The other threads are here:








						Old SB, maybe ATW lathe(s)
					

It looks like I will be inheriting another of my grandfather's machines. This was "the big lathe" that I dimly remember as a teenager (over 20 years ago....) and didn't have the room for a few years ago. What I remember is that it was WW1 era, originally overhead line-drive shafting adapted to a...




					www.hobby-machinist.com
				



and here:








						Grandpa's old 16" gap
					

So, it looks like I am going to inherit another machine from my grandfather. I now have more information on this old lathe:  https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/old-sb-maybe-atw-lathe-s.71999/  Just to recap, this is grandpa's 'big' lathe that I remember as a teenager. I always understood...




					www.hobby-machinist.com
				




It is definitely a South Bend and has the gap-feature that I remember. There was a little confusion on the s/n, but the original number was correct - G25032 - which puts it at around 1922. In fact on wswells s/n database (http://www.wswells.com/sn/sn_index.html), there is a same-year 16" gap-bed 40 numbers off that looks identical. So, before I get too hot and heavy on reassembling the machine, I'm trying to asses all of grandpa's 'treasures' that I now own. 
 - There is a stack of change gears: 24, 30, 33, 36, 39, 42, 45, 48 (x2), 52, 54, 60, 69, 80, 104, 120 and a 90 (?) that does not seem to mesh with the rest. I'm not 100% sure all of these gears are actual South Bend, one or 2 look slightly different, though they seem to mesh with the rest.
 - 7" 3-jaw (with an extra set of jaws?)
 - 8-9" 4-jaw adapted to my other lathe (10" Sheldon) that would most likely go better with a 16" lathe
 - a MONSTER 13" 4-jaw that is a 2-man lift
 - ATW lathe steady rest that is adapted to fit the South Bend
 - Tool post grinder
 - 1 1/2 hp 110/220 motor that attaches to a homemade overhead countershaft arrangement. The wires are only little stubs now, so as I have 220 in the shop I'm going to just go that route. Someday I may contemplate 3-phase, but for now I want to get the lathe back together and running.
 These are the biggies, I'm pretty sure I'll find a bit more as I go through the other stuff and figure out all that I have. Some of this junk is really junk... One of the main things is that I need to CLEAN this thing! Holy Cow is it DIRTY! There is 100 years of swarf, shavings, caked grease, dirt (?) and mouse turds from long storage. Most of the gears I had to wipe to read and to get them to mesh they need to be cleaned (maybe that I'll be able to see if they actually do mesh). The plan is to do a basic cleaning, reassemble, get it operating and then do a complete tear down. I know this seems a bit of a drawn-out process, this actually helped with my Sheldon. That one had also been in storage for some time and by doing some basic operations I had a really good idea as to how it should actually work after I put it back together. I also found a few things broken that I wouldn't have if I hadn't stripped it down. Fortunately they were easily fixed. I don't know if I'm going to go to the extent of stripping and re-painting, but there are several layers of paint, in various stages of flaking off, that it would be easy to miss a crack.
So now I have rambled on, I have some questions. 
 - Does anyone here have a similar year lathe? The controls, while transposed for the gap, are different than my Sheldon and the later SBs that I have used. I think I have an idea of how the feeds on the apron work, but I'm not totally sure.
 - Are the early ATW change gears actually compatible with the SBs? If not, does it appear that I have a compete set of change gears?
 - I know that many larger lathes have a crane arrangement for the chucks. Does anyone here have one? Where did you find it or did you make one?
 - So far I have not found an adapter sleeve for a center in the headstock. My understanding is that these are a #3 MT, but its a "big" #3 MT, actually a SB thing. Is there a place (probably ebay...?) where I could find this animal?
 - The spindle thread (I thought) was supposed to be 2 3/8 - 6, but I've measured it 3 times and I've found it to be 2 3/8 - 8. Anyone ever heard of this one? The spindle also sticks out quite a ways, almost 3", as though there was some other chuck-holding arrangement and then it was changed. Almost like the Long Taper arrangement I remember on a later SB. When did the Long Taper first come out? Or, did someone replace the spindle? When I talked to my uncle he had no idea. He was there when grandpa picked up the machine and doesn't remember any about the spindle (though that was the late 70s...). Guess its not that huge of a deal, between all of the lathes I can make adapters, its just kinda odd..... 
Guess that is the big questions for now, though I'm sure I'll have more as I fool with the lathe. I do have a number of additional things that came with the lathe that do not go with it, I'll post those on the proper forum, though if someone has a thread dial or a traveler rest I'd be interested.
Thanks


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## 63redtudor (Sep 8, 2019)

Oh, I suppose I should post a picture:



Not the greatest picture, but the best I was able to do in the storage unit.


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## craptain (Sep 8, 2019)

Definitely a great project. I assume that you have checked out my favorite source of information about machines, Vintage Machinery. They have a registry online along with scans of any literature that could be available. Oh, and the picture registry. All told, a real treasury of information. And if you want to spend $25 you can get a copy of the original build card from South Bend, through the Grizzly website. I got those for both my SB lathes and now know that they are both, or at least were totally original when I got them. 

Good luck with the cleanup and rebuild. I will be following. 

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## benmychree (Sep 8, 2019)

The change gear chart on the gear guard should list all the change gears required.  It is highly unlikely that the spindle would have been changed or modified; I assume that the chucks you have fit the spindle?  Nearly all lathes use a tapered sleeve to fit the center in the spindle.  the center for the spindle is usually left soft so that it can be recut to run true and is the same number taper as the tailstock center which is hard.


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## silence dogood (Sep 8, 2019)

Okay son, you need to show the picture that has both the Sheldon and the South Bend.  LOL


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## 63redtudor (Sep 25, 2019)

Ok, here is the picture of the South Bend bed in front of the Sheldon. The Sheldon is fairly heavy-duty, but the 16" SB makes it look like a toy....


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## SLK001 (Sep 25, 2019)

63redtudor said:


> - So far I have not found an adapter sleeve for a center in the headstock. My understanding is that these are a #3 MT, but its a "big" #3 MT, actually a SB thing. Is there a place (probably ebay...?) where I could find this animal?
> - The spindle thread (I thought) was supposed to be 2 3/8 - 6, but I've measured it 3 times and I've found it to be 2 3/8 - 8. Anyone ever heard of this one? The spindle also sticks out quite a ways, almost 3", as though there was some other chuck-holding arrangement and then it was changed.



I have been making the SB proprietary spindle adapter sleeves for the "newer" SB lathes (shameless plug).  They are a taper of a MT#3, but larger.  I'm not sure that it will fit the "older" models of the SB spindles.  Looking at the Spindle Chart pics below shows that they are similar, but not identical.  It looks like the outside dimension is smaller.  What is the spindle bore of your lathe?  

Here is the drawing that I work to:




As for your spindle, here is a drawing from SB giving the spindles and the "beginning dates" of same.  Your 2-3/8 x 8 spindle seems to fall within the production dates of the earlier 16", but the "stickout" maxed out at 2" in the chart.  If you included the entire length of the spindle, it could be approaching 2-1/2" or so.  But the taper is the same as the new SBs.


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## 63redtudor (Sep 26, 2019)

I have been spending some time on the vintage machinery site as well as the wswells site. Almost overwhelming at times!
SLK001, where did you get those sheets? That is the first reference that I've seen with the 2 3/8" - 8 spindle thread. The South Bend groups.oi group has only a vague reference to this spindle thread. All of the literature I have seen has the 16" lathes as having 2 3/8" - 6.
I did do some measuring the other night. Referencing SLK001's sheets, the measurements are as follows: A - 2 3/8 - 8, B - 1.985", C - 1.536", D - 0.618, E - 2.650". I'm not all that sure I trust dimension D, the spindle bore is pretty dirty and even running a rag in there didn't help much. I think that the spindle needs to come out and have a bath in a solvent tank. Most of the other dimensions are fairly close. I won't rule out the possibility that there was some modification done on the spindle at some time or another. With a 100 year old piece of machinery who knows.


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## SLK001 (Sep 27, 2019)

63redtudor said:


> SLK001, where did you get those sheets? That is the first reference that I've seen with the 2 3/8" - 8 spindle thread.



Don't remember... Like you, I scoured the internet for any information that I found useful.



63redtudor said:


> The South Bend groups.oi group has only a vague reference to this spindle thread.



Never heard of these guys.  Can you post the URL?



63redtudor said:


> Referencing SLK001's sheets, the measurements are as follows: D - 0.618. I'm not all that sure I trust dimension D, the spindle bore is pretty dirty and even running a rag in there didn't help much.



How did you measure this?  If your bore is dirty, soak a rag in some diesel or kerosene and stuff it in the bore for an hour or so.  Then run a wire brush thru it like you were cleaning a rifle barrel.  I use brush 7353T29 that I got from McMaster-Carr.  It is a 1-1/2" diameter stainless steel bristle brush that is 27" long.  With the brush, followed by a "rag on a rope", I can get my bore squeaky clean.  To make the "D" measurement, your bore HAS to be squeaky clean.  I'll agree that mods may have been made over the years, but redoing the taper is not your average job.

What is your bore size, measured from the gear side of the spindle?


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## SLK001 (Sep 28, 2019)

It turns out that I got them from a former employee of South Bend Lathes, SBLatheman over on the Practical Machinist South Bend forum.


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## 63redtudor (Sep 30, 2019)

The gear side of the spindle measures out at approximately 1.310".
The groups.io is a community that has largely replaced a lot of the yahoo groups that used to exist or still exist but are no longer active. I guess most of the moderators got a little frustrated with yahoo and how the groups were being run. There are a number of lathe forums as well as the metal shaper group, at least these are the ones I'm involved with. There may be other things as well, I just haven't looked for them. Just google groups.io, I think you can join with a yahoo account (?).


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## 63redtudor (Oct 13, 2019)

With winter rapidly approaching and a few other projects in the works, I've decided to re-assemble the SB. Mainly so I don't lose parts, or worse yet, get parts mixed in with the wrong machine. Hopefully this spring I can do some serious cleaning/fixing (if necessary). I am doing some basic cleaning and inspecting, mainly so I have an idea as to what I'm dealing with and I'm not trying to re-install something on a 100-year old pile of swarf. One thing that I did find is that I am missing the 4 bolts/screws that hold down the gap section. Turns out what I thought were bolts, are actually the alignment taper pins:




The gap does come in and out snug and the carriage passes over the gap with out any trouble, so I don't think (I hope) there was any real serious bed twist. What I do need to know is what kinda bolts/screws (4 of them) were originally in there to hold down the gap? Looks as though they were some sorta close-tolerance shoulder bolt/screw? Does anyone else have a similar year SB gap bed lathe and can show me a picture? My dad frequents this site and has access to the storage unit the lathe was in, he will be able to look for them. If he knows what to look for. Barring that, I do have 2 other lathes and I can easily make something that will work. If I go that route, what should I make the bolts/screws out of (material)?


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