# I would love a Kurt DX6, but why I don't own one.



## acruxksa (Jun 14, 2020)

Picture says it all.   Just as an FYI, Glacern wasn't any better.  Also..........News Flash........ ALASKA IS IN NORTH AMERICA............................AND on the SAME CONTINENT.  WTF!  Please add USPS Priority to your shipping options, it's 1/4 the price.


----------



## darkzero (Jun 14, 2020)

Yeah that sucks. It's a UPS FedEx thing. Many tool vendors use UPS and/or FedEx as their primary carriers as they provide better service & rates for heavy weight items. USPS has a weight limit of 60- 70 lbs or something like that & USPS is pretty bad at handling heavy weight packages. I remember some vendors won't even ship to AK or HI.

Have you tried looking at other vendors for the Kurt instead of direct from Kurt? As far as I know no one other than Glacern sells their products.

Try checking Amazon. The DX-6 is $589 free Prime shipping & I just checked with a non CONUS address & there was no surcharge for shipping or $26 for shipping non-Prime.


----------



## Aukai (Jun 14, 2020)

I think my Kurt D688 was 78 lbs Amazon prime, the delivery person was not happy. If you live remote, you have to deal with shipping. AK residents have a 1K annual allowance, Hawaii does not....


----------



## projectnut (Jun 14, 2020)

darkzero said:


> Yeah that sucks. It's a UPS FedEx thing. Many tool vendors use UPS and/or FedEx as their primary carriers as they provide better service & rates for heavy weight items. USPS has a weight limit of 60- 70 lbs or something like that & USPS is pretty bad at handling heavy weight packages. I remember some vendors won't even ship to AK or HI.
> 
> Have you tried looking at other vendors for the Kurt instead of direct from Kurt? As far as I know no one other than Glacern sells their products.
> 
> Try checking Amazon. The DX-6 is $589 free Prime shipping & I just checked with a non CONUS address & there was no surcharge for shipping or $26 for shipping non-Prime.



UPS and FedEx are charging the actual cost to ship the product.  As for products costing less when being shipped from China it's because the Chinese government subsidizes the shipping as a method of under cutting the price of goods made in the US.

Go to Google and enter the script:  "does the Chinese government subsidize shipping to the US" and you'll find dozens of articles explaining why there's a huge difference between shipping costs from China to the US, and goods being shipped internally in the US.  This however is a one way street.  China does not subsidize shipping from the US to China even if it's for returning defective goods.  For that reason alone most retailers from China don't want defective goods returned.

There are dozens of complaints on eBay about the cost to return defective items.  In one case an item purchased from Hong Kong cost $6.00 plus $1.50 shipping.  When it arrived at the customers door it was defective.  The cost to return it was $34.50 with tracking and $11.48 without tracking.


----------



## darkzero (Jun 14, 2020)

projectnut said:


> UPS and FedEx are charging the actual cost to ship the product.  As for products costing less when being shipped from China it's because the Chinese government subsidizes the shipping as a method of under cutting the price of goods made in the US.
> 
> Go to Google and enter the script:  "does the Chinese government subsidize shipping to the US" and you'll find dozens of articles explaining why there's a huge difference between shipping costs from China to the US, and goods being shipped internally in the US.  This however is a one way street.  China does not subsidize shipping from the US to China even if it's for returning defective goods.  For that reason alone most retailers from China don't want defective goods returned.
> 
> There are dozens of complaints on eBay about the cost to return defective items.  In one case an item purchased from Hong Kong cost $6.00 plus $1.50 shipping.  When it arrived at the customers door it was defective.  The cost to return it was $34.50 with tracking and $11.48 without tracking.



What does shipping from China have anything to do with this thread? I nor the OP mentioned nothing about shipping from overseas.


----------



## jwmelvin (Jun 14, 2020)

darkzero said:


> What does shipping from China have anything to do with this thread? I nor the OP mentioned nothing about shipping from overseas.



OP’s screen shot did.


----------



## Cooter Brown (Jun 14, 2020)

I was just looking at buying a Kurt dx6 vise.....

Free shipping on ebay.....








						Kurt 6” Vise For CNC/Bridgeport Milling Machine 9” Capacity DX6  | eBay
					

Kurt DX6 6 in. Wide x 9 in. Capacity Horizontal Stationary Machine Vise. Vise material: ductile iron. Stationary base vises can be universally mounted to milling tables, swivel bases, angle plates and tilting fixtures.



					www.ebay.com


----------



## projectnut (Jun 14, 2020)

Enlargement of OP's screen shot.  Note the line "....*and they wonder why China is winning the manufacturing battle.* *I'm trying to buy American, but I can get %95 of the accuracy for half the price."*


----------



## Buffalo21 (Jun 14, 2020)

I will never own another Kurt vise. In about 1997, I bought two 6” Kurt vises, one was very good, the other was junk. It would not sit flat on the mill table, it rocked back and forth about .015”, the other one was rock solid. I tried on 4 different mills and a couple of surface plates, the vise bottom had been machined wrong. I talk to Kurt, who said it was impossible, the seller said what I was saying was correct, they then said since I was a hobbyist, not a “professional shop”, accused me of stupidity,  mis-use or willful sabotage. They were going to do absolutely nothing for me. I returned the good vise for full credit and eventually sold the bad vise to a shop, who had the bottom reground about .020” to .025” to get it right. I ended up loosing about $250 on that deal.

I ended up buying 2 Bison vises and had no issues. I’d give up machining and my home shop, before I bought another Kurt vise.

It just goes to show, as with most items, some people swear by them, others swear at them.


----------



## markba633csi (Jun 14, 2020)

Too bad you had to lose money- I would have called my credit card company and gotten them involved
Also, it shouldn't matter if you buy 2 vises or 200- You're still a customer and the customer is king
-M


----------



## ThinWoodsman (Jun 14, 2020)

I ordered a DX-6 when I saw it on sale with free shipping.
The UPS guy and I had a good laugh over it - I commented that it was kinda light for eighty pounds, and he wondered how small the Team required by the box to Lift it must be


----------



## acruxksa (Jun 14, 2020)

I'll keep looking, Amazon Prime does often work for these items, but increasingly even prime is not shipping to Alaska/Hawaii for larger items.  I mentioned the Chinese stuff mostly because it's available on e-bay and you can usually find someone who will ship it for a reasonable price.  However, even there you can find items with shipping costs that are double or triple the cost of the item..........

I will also look into vertex and some of the other options.  I really wanted the Glacern 5" vise, but again, shipping is ridiculous.  I've got time, since I ordered the precision vise with my PM-30MV (in retrospect, perhaps I should have gone with the ultra-precision, but I figured I'd just be buying a nicer one anyway so why spend the extra.......)

Other option is to ship it to family in Oregon and have them Gold Streak it to me.  If push comes to shove, this is the route I'll go, but it's a bit of a hassle for my family and I don't really like to impose on them if I can avoid it.


----------



## darkzero (Jun 14, 2020)

jwmelvin said:


> OP’s screen shot did.



I saw that but it I did not take that as having to do with China's shipping but of course is a factor. Was just confused as to why I was quoted in regards to China's shipping. But whatever, no matter.


----------



## Buffalo21 (Jun 14, 2020)

markba633csi said:


> Too bad you had to lose money- I would have called my credit card company and gotten them involved
> Also, it shouldn't matter if you buy 2 vises or 200- You're still a customer and the customer is king
> -M




Mark,

long before credit cards were involved, I bought the vises through a local dealer, paid cash, Kurt would not do anything for the dealer or for me. They said it was my issue or fault, not theirs and basically hung up. I somewhat felt sorry for the dealer, caught between us, he agreed to give 100% back for the good vise and I had to bite the bullet on the bad one, the shop that did the repair, bought the vise for roughly 50% of what I had paid for it. So between the 50% and the shipping, I lost somewhere near $250.

As the vises were to be used on 2 different machines, I’ve been asked, why not keep the good one, pay to have the other fixed or just shim it and move on. It’s because I’m a mean rotten spirited person, I want nothing to do with Kurt, I wouldn’t allow any of their vises, their accessories and even their catalog in the shop. They went our of their way to screw me and I’ll never forget it.

Boy, I’m glad, I’m not bitter.............


----------



## projectnut (Jun 14, 2020)

I'm not sure how long you've lived in Alaska, but prices for almost everything are higher.  Whether it be food, fuel, or industrial items.  We've been in your neck of the woods several months in the last 10 years.  The prices take a little getting used to.  In most cases shipping is baked into the price you pay at the store.  When items are shipped it's more noticeable.  Last year when we were there we noticed higher prices across the board.

A few examples are:

 McDonalds 1/4 pounder w/cheese meal $11.70, same meal in Wisconsin $7.52.  

Dewalt 6' step ladder $139.00.  Same ladder at Home Depot in Wisconsin $99.00

Automatic battery acid filler $22.90  Same filler at NAPA in Wisconsin $16.99

The difference is almost always 25% to 40% higher in Alaska, which puts the final price of the vise inline with most other products.

As for the vise you might want to check All Industrial Tool Supply  They advertise the DX6 for $524.00 and a fixed cost shipping of $25.00.  I didn't go through the checkout process so there may be additional charges to Alaska or Hawaii.









						Kurt DX6 | 6" Machine Vise 9" Opening
					

Our 6" Kurt Vise DX6 combines and adds to the top features from our other state-of-the-art Kurt Milling Machine Vises. Shop for your Kurt DX6 here.




					allindustrial.com


----------



## markba633csi (Jun 14, 2020)

Oh shoot.  That is surprising considering Kurt is such a well known brand.  Well if it's any consolation, I lost my shirt buying a used VW passat.  Never ending repairs and virtually no resale value, partly because of the emissions scandal.  No more of their products for me.  
-M


----------



## acruxksa (Jun 14, 2020)

projectnut said:


> I'm not sure how long you've lived in Alaska, but prices for almost everything are higher.  Whether it be food, fuel, or industrial items.  We've been in your neck of the woods several months in the last 10 years.  The prices take a little getting used to.  In most cases shipping is baked into the price you pay at the store.  When items are shipped it's more noticeable.  Last year when we were there we noticed higher prices across the board.
> 
> A few examples are:
> 
> ...



51 years   Born here in 1969.
I'm used to paying more, just not that much more.   If I told you what I paid for my Atlas QC54, most people wouldn't believe me.  It was still worth it because lathes and mills are just not that common up here and shipping definitely factors in.  However, I'm pretty happy with the shipping quote I received from Precision Matthews, very fair.  When it comes time for me to upgrade my lathe, I'll certainly be buying from them again. 

I solved the problem though, Kurt DX4 is probably plenty large enough for what I need to do and only $75 shipping fedex 2 day.  My PM-30MV should arrive on either next Sundays or Tuesdays ship (currently on a truck enroute to Seattle), so I'll order the vise in a couple days.


----------



## Cooter Brown (Jun 14, 2020)

acruxksa said:


> 51 years   Born here in 1969.
> I solved the problem though, Kurt DX4 is probably plenty large enough for what I need to do and only $75 shipping fedex 2 day.  My PM-30MV should arrive on either next Sundays or Tuesdays ship, so I'll order the vise in a couple days.



Yeah a DX4 is probably a better fit for a small machine like a PM-30MV......


----------



## Aukai (Jun 14, 2020)

The 6" is a beast to move around, I just took mine off of the 9 x 30 to see if I like the 4" better.


----------



## kb58 (Jun 14, 2020)

I would love a Ferrari, but why I don't own one...


----------



## Z2V (Jun 14, 2020)

Aukai said:


> The 6" is a beast to move around, I just took mine off of the 9 x 30 to see if I like the 4" better.


Report back in a few weeks if you would. I’ve been thinking about a 4” for my 8x30.


----------



## Aukai (Jun 14, 2020)

This is the picture I took before, I'll report back when I actually do a job.


----------



## Aukai (Jun 14, 2020)

I have not done a line item check about what the differences are between the D688, and the DX6, but mine is discontinued.


----------



## projectnut (Jun 14, 2020)

darkzero said:


> I saw that but it I did not take that as having to do with China's shipping but of course is a factor. Was just confused as to why I was quoted in regards to China's shipping. But whatever, no matter.



In your original post you made the comment "Yeah that sucks. It's a UPS FedEx thing."  I thought you were making a comment as to the fact that these companies were charging outrageous shipping rates.  I was offering up that these companies were actually charging appropriate rates, and that the price of a Chinese vise was less due to the fact that the Chinese government was subsidizing the Chinese manufacturers by absorbing almost the entire cost of shipping.  They only have to do it until the competition is driven out of the market.  Then the prices rise dramatically.

Over the years they have forced a number of businesses out of a particular category by subsidizing local companies to copy once popular brands.  Case and point is the "Golden Goose" drill chucks.  In the late 1970's and through the 1980's a company in Taiwan built these drill chucks. They were high quality, and sold for about half the price of a comparable Jacobs chuck.  (I have 5 in the shop)  When Taiwan had a falling out with mainland China the mainland government saw no problem with mainland manufacturers counterfeiting the chucks.  Not only did they support it, but they subsidized both the manufacturing process and shipping.

It took about 5 years for the poorly made counterfeits to flood the market and ruin the original manufacturer's reputation.  Since the company in Taiwan had no recourse they stopped making the chucks.  There are still some original Golden Goose chucks available, but you have to know what you're looking for to differentiate the mainland ones from those built in Taiwan.


----------



## acruxksa (Jun 14, 2020)

Anyone deal with MSC Industrial Direct?  They've got the DX4 for $50 less than Kurt (including shipping)  They're also $20 less than All Industrial Tool Supply when factoring in shipping.


----------



## darkzero (Jun 14, 2020)

projectnut said:


> I thought you were making a comment as to the fact that these companies were charging outrageous shipping rates.



Nope not at all. Often people compare UPS & FedEx rates to USPS & I get why some consumers do since their ultimate concern is the price. They can't be compared though from various stand points. I've worked in shipping as well as shipped a lot myself.

In the past UPS & FedEx did not even offer ground shipping to non-CONUS states. At some point it seems they started offering "ground" shipping to non-CONUS states but obviously it has to go by air eventually. I never looked into what it actually is other than knowing it's a slightly cheaper rate than "Air" shipments with longer transit time. It's priced accordingly & still costs more than CONUS ground.


----------



## Nogoingback (Jun 15, 2020)

markba633csi said:


> Oh shoot.  That is surprising considering Kurt is such a well known brand.  Well if it's any consolation, I lost my shirt buying a used VW passat.  Never ending repairs and virtually no resale value, partly because of the emissions scandal.  No more of their products for me.
> -M



VW hasn't built a quality car since about 1967.


----------



## acruxksa (Jun 15, 2020)

Why wait.  MSC shipping was slightly cheaper than All Industrial Tools, but it was UPS Ground so who knows how long that would take.  Just ordered the Kurt DX4 from All Industrial Tool Supply with fedex 2nd day air.


----------



## Aukai (Jun 15, 2020)

For me the Fedx, and UPS ground takes ~ 4-5 days. It goes to a hub, is held, and then added to a flight to my destination. If it came by ocean it would be 10-14 days


----------



## acruxksa (Jun 15, 2020)

Aukai said:


> For me the Fedx, and UPS ground takes ~ 4-5 days. It goes to a hub, is held, and then added to a flight to my destination. If it came by ocean it would be 10-14 days


Probably the same here, Both UPS and Fedex have major Airline hubs here, so I'm pretty sure ground will still be flown in, just low on the priority list.  It was only $20 more to have it 2nd day.  Still $30 cheaper than direct from Kurt.


----------



## burtonbr (Jun 16, 2020)

on the Kurt site in the scratch & dent section DX6 vises are $458.50 maybe that could help offset the high shipping rate,  I believe they retain full warranty


----------



## brino (Jun 16, 2020)

....don't get me started on the number of US companies that call Canada "overseas".
Check an f'ing map would ya!

-brino


----------



## Buffalo21 (Jun 16, 2020)

brino said:


> ....don't get me started on the number of US companies that call Canada "overseas".
> Check an f'ing map would ya!
> 
> -brino




You're on the other side of Lake Erie and Lake Ontario, they are like small seas...............


----------



## Dabbler (Jun 16, 2020)

I have a Dx633 and an DX6.  they both work the same.

I got my DX6 by finding a sale on it and getting a local  distributor to price match.  No shipping.  because it is Canada, I still paid 700$


----------



## vecair (Jun 17, 2020)

Its because America has priced itself out of the world market on just about every item we make, even shipping.


----------



## samstu (Jun 17, 2020)

What about Amazon?   They sell and ship Kurt vices.  From website it claims free shipping for up to 70 pounds to alaska / hawaii for prime members.   I just bought a DX6 a couple weeks ago and went with local Ohio supplier to save a few coins, but in your case.....


----------



## acruxksa (Jun 17, 2020)

samstu said:


> What about Amazon?   They sell and ship Kurt vices.  From website it claims free shipping for up to 70 pounds to alaska / hawaii for prime members.   I just bought a DX6 a couple weeks ago and went with local Ohio supplier to save a few coins, but in your case.....


I went with the Kurt DX4 from Industrial Tool Supply.  UPS is actually delivering it as we speak.  I'll post a couple pics in a bit.  Have to go out for about an hour first.


----------



## acruxksa (Jun 17, 2020)

More later.


----------



## acruxksa (Jun 18, 2020)

Very happy.  Milling machine won't be here for another 5-7 days, but I'll be ready when it does show up.


----------



## Cooter Brown (Jun 18, 2020)

acruxksa said:


> Very happy.  Milling machine won't be here for another 5-7 days, but I'll be ready when it does show up.



Did it come with the sheet metal cover that slides under the static jaw and goes over the screw?


----------



## darkzero (Jun 18, 2020)

Cooter Brown said:


> Did it come with the sheet metal cover that slides under the static jaw and goes over the screw?



It should have. Hope he didn't throw out the box already & the trash man came already. I've heard of a number of times where people weren't aware of that piece & just tossed it out with the box.


----------



## mikey (Jun 18, 2020)

The D40 does not come with the plate and I suspect the DX4 doesn't, either.


----------



## darkzero (Jun 18, 2020)

The DX4 manual does show a part number for it but doesn't show a picture of it in the diagram. Different p/n than the DX6 so I'm just assuming it does. P/N DL400-249

EDIT: Kurt's website description does say it comes with a chip guard. It's only $6, wonder if it will fit your D40 or maybe with modifications? Hmm, now I want to see if I can make one for my Glacern.


----------



## burtonbr (Jun 18, 2020)

Awesome , I have 2 of those DX4’s & love them. Mine did cone with the chip guard strip but one of them I didn’t get the jaw stop for.


----------



## acruxksa (Jun 18, 2020)

Cooter Brown said:


> Did it come with the sheet metal cover that slides under the static jaw and goes over the screw?



Yes it did, Yes I overlooked it in the box, (very thin and kind of stuck to the back side of the box), Yes the box was in the trash can.  Thankfully recycled isn't until next week   Thank You!


----------



## Cooter Brown (Jun 18, 2020)

acruxksa said:


> Yes it did, Yes I overlooked it in the box, (very thin and kind of stuck to the back side of the box), Yes the box was in the trash can.  Thankfully recycled isn't until next week   Thank You!



I'm happy to hear that I was able to catch  you before you lost the cover plate.


----------



## projectnut (Jun 18, 2020)

vecair said:


> Its because America has priced itself out of the world market on just about every item we make, even shipping.



Looking at the most recent data available in the US the private sector production and nonsupervisory employees –who make up about 80% of the private-sector workforce – earn an average of $22.73 an hour.  By comparison the average hourly wage for the same group in China is $3.60 an hour. 

On top of that the US government requires private industry to fund retirement programs at 80% and/or offer 401K's which generally offer dollar for dollar matches by the company between 3% and 6% of the employees earnings.  Chinas' pension system supposedly requires full funding, but local municipalities often "borrow" from the fund leaving it all but non existent.   This is somewhat akin to the Teamsters retirement fund scandal's that erupted in the 1960's and 70's.

Given the differences in wages and retirement requirements along with China subsidizing nearly 100% of shipping costs it's difficult to see how any  company in this or any other country can compete on price.  The Europeans have somewhat countered the pricing structure by demanding a percentage of any product sold in the EU be manufactured within the EU.  We don't have any such restrictions currently in our trade agreements with China.


----------



## ddickey (Jun 18, 2020)

Plus environmental regulations are non existent there, I think.


----------

