# Curious why people need a small bandsaw  for DIY?



## NICOLAS LIN

As the title says, I am a bit curious why people need a small bandsaw to cutting something by themselves? As i know most of our bandsaw sold to US market and lots of DIY brands machine also do as well, can anyone share why people need this kind of machine? like 4x6 small bandsaw or hacksaw...? In Taiwan, people doesn't do this very often, is it because high labor charge or any other reason cause people in US like to do it by themselves?


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## Aukai

There is a saying, that if you borrow a machine, or have someone do it for you more than 2 times, you should buy your own machine. There are a lot of self reliant people here I guess.


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## Ulma Doctor

i think the reason that most of us get small bandsaws is the ability to make many successive cuts in materials that may be time consuming to otherwise reduce to size.
i also think that the small sizes of the saws appeal to consumers due to their small footprint

but lastly, i think the potential to make things ultimately drives the sale


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## vecair

Actually Nicolas that is an interesting question.  I wonder if Americans tend to have more building hobbies than people in other countries?  I would guess more Americans build and tinker than tend gardens or animals?  Seems pretty much everyone I know has a building hobby, either it be woodworking, metalworking, HO train layouts, etc.  We also tend to be addicted to tools these days.  I see more and more worthless tools of every kind being sold,  not like years past.  We also seem more impatient and therefore want powertools vs hand tools.  Always bigger and faster is better. So given a bandsaw would speed up the work and that we like to work with power anything I would say those might figure in.  Interesting to think about tho.  Cheers from Arizona!


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## Janderso

Many parts start on the saw as a first operation.
There are many ways to cut a piece of metal. The clean, square, cut from a properly adjusted band saw is the way to begin. IMHO.


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## DavidR8

I agree with @vecair I think location play a big part in sale distribution. 
Likely more saws are sold in smaller centres than in large metropolitan centres such as Manhatten for Toronto or example.


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## middle.road

Because my shoulders give out doing it manually - that's why.
Not sure though where I'm going to put one once I score it.


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## kd4gij

Only reason we need small band saws is. We don't have room for big band saws.


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## shooter123456

kd4gij said:


> Only reason we need small band saws is. We don't have room for big band saws.


And/or the finances to purchase big bandsaws.


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## NICOLAS LIN

Aukai said:


> There is a saying, that if you borrow a machine, or have someone do it for you more than 2 times, you should buy your own machine. There are a lot of self reliant people here I guess.


Uhh, but is it not easy to call some maintenance shop to do this? i mean call for service is not easy? maybe needs to pay but it is easier, isn't?


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## shooter123456

NICOLAS LIN said:


> Uhh, but is it not easy to call some maintenance shop to do this? i mean call for service is not easy? maybe needs to pay but it is easier, isn't?


For the things I use my machines for, I wouldn't even know where to start looking to find someone to do it for me.  Much easier to just purchase the machine if I will use it regularly and do it myself.


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## NICOLAS LIN

Ulma Doctor said:


> i think the reason that most of us get small bandsaws is the ability to make many successive cuts in materials that may be time consuming to otherwise reduce to size.
> i also think that the small sizes of the saws appeal to consumers due to their small footprint
> 
> but lastly, i think the potential to make things ultimately drives the sale


yeah, demand causes supply like chain action.


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## NICOLAS LIN

middle.road said:


> Because my shoulders give out doing it manually - that's why.
> Not sure though where I'm going to put one once I score it.


understood, sample and clear! are you own a small bandsaw?


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## middle.road

NICOLAS LIN said:


> Uhh, but is it not easy to call some maintenance shop to do this? i mean call for service is not easy? maybe needs to pay but it is easier, isn't?


It's pretty spread out here in the states. Trying to find a shop that will do 'cuts' for you is costly and time consuming in a lot of places.


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## middle.road

NICOLAS LIN said:


> understood, sample and clear! are you own a small bandsaw?


Looking for one. Going for a 4x6 more than likely.
Currently I use the portable Harbor Freight saws for cutting, one is the old Central Machinery model the other a newer Bauer.


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## vecair

NICOLAS LIN said:


> Uhh, but is it not easy to call some maintenance shop to do this? i mean call for service is not easy? maybe needs to pay but it is easier, isn't?
> 
> Well with the cost of things like that , having a shop do it, it would not be long before you paid for a saw.  As Henry Ford once said "If you need a machine and don't buy it, you will ultimately find you have paid for it and don't have it."  Shop rates around here are $80 to 120 an hour with a one hour minimum.  So what two cuts and  Henry is proven correct.  And  you have the satisfaction of getting it done right now and doing it yourself.  That might even be the key to America


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## Aukai

The shops that are here local to me are not always responsive to your needs, they say I'll call you when it's done. They are busy enough, and lack competition to worry about firing up the machine to do a quick cut. You wait in line to get jobs done.


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## Dhal22

As a plumber a Milwaukee deep cut band saw has been an important part of my life since I started the trade in 85.  Only since joining this site last year have I learned that it has even more value clamped upside down in a vise serving as an excellent hobby saw.


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## matthewsx

We used to have a department store called Sears that had a good selection of tools at reasonable prices. People bought all kinds of stuff there for their hobbies, my dad built an airplane and I still have his small bandsaw.  If you have somebody else cut your stock not only do you have to pay them, you have to inspect their work to make sure it's right.

When you own the tools needed to do the job you can just go and get it done. Many people buy steel in 20' lengths, a small bandsaw is perfect for cutting it down accurately. 

John


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## savarin

As a hobbiest I cannot afford a large machine, a small machine is more in keeping with the type of work I do,
As Middle.road said the shoulders give out after too much manual work.


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## kd4gij

Because here in the us we are referred to as toolaholics


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## nnam

Here's my thinking 

Small: helps with space, cost, portability

Own: save time and cost to go to shop (very expensive) .  We are very busy.  Business charges a lot here to do anything simple, In fact, they may not cut anything due to low business demand for it.

Usability: it certainly helps cut metal quickly and quieter, less dust than angle grinder, and nicer cut.

Frequency: with metal, it is used alot to begin many projects.

Availability: we can cut it off business hour, especially for working people doing hobby projects


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## BtoVin83

After screwing up the first two or three parts the shops get tired of cutting "just one more piece"


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## C-Bag

I wanted to do metal fabrication at home for all kinds of projects. And to have that done by a shop was so expensive I knew I could buy the tools for what the shop would cost and be able to do it myself. So logically I knew I needed a welder, an oxy/acetylene rig and a horizontal bandsaw. It's very much a chicken or the egg dilemma. Soon as I knew the basic needs I was able to find an old Lincoln arc welder for cheap used, a used OA rig and did a valve job on my sister in laws VW bus for the HF 4x6. The welder and the original OA rig are long gone but the 4x6 is still here. It is basic kit IMHO.


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## Aaron_W

NICOLAS LIN said:


> Uhh, but is it not easy to call some maintenance shop to do this? i mean call for service is not easy? maybe needs to pay but it is easier, isn't?



My local metal supply will cut at the time of purchase. Small stuff they can do with bolt cutters (rough), no charge, bigger stuff they will torch cut (rough) for I think $4 / cut or saw cut (better, but not precise) for either $6 or $8 / cut. My Harbor Fright 4x6 bandsaw at $200 paid for itself very quickly. In fact I think its first job was making about 20 cuts in 4x4 tube steel, that alone almost paid for the saw.

Plus what a hassle to have to haul your stock someplace else to get it cut when I can do it right here. I can only imagine the chore that is for people further out from civilization.


What I'd really like to see is a small 12-14" basic vertical metal cutting bandsaw in the $500 > range. All that I've seen are larger 14"+ and much more expensive $2000+ with built in blade welders and such, stuff I really don't need in a home shop. The vertical arrangement on the horizontal saws leaves much to be desired.

There are lots of wood bandsaws in this size / price class. Some people have put speed reducers on wood bandsaws to use on metal, but would be nice to have one purpose built instead of trying to convert one. Variable speed (even if through gear or belt change) to allow wood or metals would be even better.


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## Winegrower

I wonder if the average home shop size is larger than in Taiwan?   That seems to be true for homes, and I think garages are smaller and maybe not as common as in the US.   If you have the room, and the funds, which so far Americans seem to have in adequate amounts, a small bandsaw is almost a necessity for a serious hobby machinist.   Please correct me if you don’t agree.


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## Chipper5783

Hi Nicholas, is hobby metal working or home machine shops very common in Tiawan?


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## cjtoombs

I used a Dewalt cold cut chop saw for quite some time for breaking down stock, but the vise on it is pretty terrible, and it was basicaly impossible to get a square cut.   Another thing I didn't like about the chopsaw was the mess it made of the chips.   The bandsaw is a lot slower, but it's quieter, cuts square and not as messy.  I have a small 3 wheel vertical bandsaw that I found at an antique store for $45 and it is one of the most used tools in the shop now.


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## Nutfarmer

It's about time. By the time I take a part into a job shop to be cut and come back I have lost at least half a days work. A couple of times doing that more than pays for the saw.


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## NICOLAS LIN

kd4gij said:


> Because here in the us we are referred to as toolaholics


Maybe haha.


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## Alcap

I always wonder why more people didn't use chop saws more  , that's all I had until a few months ago , getting a HF portable band saw and mounting it vertically .  Now I know !!!   I used that so many times , not worrying about sparks flying or dragging everything outside . Making better cuts and to be able to cut into corners are just some of the reasons I'm hooked


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## NortonDommi

30 odd years ago I bought a 7 x 12,(made in Taiwan), to help on a job to finance a TIG. It is one of the single best investments I ever made.  Gets used almost every day but I surely would love one of those portable bandsaws. Thanks to the marvels of modern technology I see you can now get cordless ones.  Due to reduced income I can't afford one.


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## Downunder Bob

I bought my small bandsaw it's a 5x5 not 4x6 but pretty much the same, any way I bought it shortly after getting my lathe as I very soon realised that I needed one. 

As many have said above, us hobbyists chose small because they are usually cheaper and many of us don't have large workshops.

It's the absolute convenience of cutting the piece at home. If I had to take it to a shop to be cut it would need a 5km drive to the nearest shop and they would charge me about $5 for one cut of a piece of 1 inch bar. it soon ads up.


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## C-Bag

Every time I've had something cut at a welding shop it's been $5 a cut when I was needing new stock. The two local welding shops that supply metal are both 45 minutes away.


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## theperfessor

Some places won't cut unknown metal, all it takes is one piece of hardened tool steel to screw up a $20-$30 (or more) blade. Same reason many commercial wood shops won't plane your lumber for fear of hitting nails. That's one reason why people buy their own small saws and wood planers.

I bet 95% of the work we do starts by being cut off in a bandsaw. The only stuff that doesn't is usually pre-cut, i.e. cutouts of plate stock for example.


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## BGHansen

NICOLAS LIN said:


> As the title says, I am a bit curious why people need a small bandsaw to cutting something by themselves? As i know most of our bandsaw sold to US market and lots of DIY brands machine also do as well, can anyone share why people need this kind of machine? like 4x6 small bandsaw or hacksaw...? In Taiwan, people doesn't do this very often, is it because high labor charge or any other reason cause people in US like to do it by themselves?


I bought an Atlas lathe back in around 1985.  Was sliding it down a board to my basement shop and one of the quadrant gears fell off.  There was a retaining bolt/axle with a head of something like 1.25" and a shaft of 0.5" (dimensions from memory and not critical - part of the story).  There was a threaded portion that went through the quadrant with a jam nut to hold it in place.  The thread was trashed, so the first lathe project was to remake the part.  Turned the shoulder for the axle, turned and threaded the end for the jam nut.  I didn't have a proper parting tool so went to the bench vise and a hacksaw.  I spent 45 minutes hacking through the round (either 1.25" or 1.5").  Went to the store and bought a 4" x 6" band saw and retired my hacksaw.

I upgraded a few years ago to a 7" x 12" saw with coolant (Harbor Freight $700 model).  I can't imagine NOT having a horizontal saw for cutting stock.  Makes life so much easier.

Bruce


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## C-Bag

We had a customer who had a Ford 350 4x4 diesel that pulled a 35' RV a couple of times a month to Utah from California. Out in the desert he said the truck just stopped moving. The engine was running and it was in gear but all he got was this horrible rattling noise. He put it in 4wd and was able to limp into the nearest town. Turned out the axle had broken right at the base of the end cap. Turned out an old Bronco axle was the same pattern and splines but way shorter. Just enough to engage about 1/2" into the 3rd member splines. He limped it home. The broken axle had beaten around in the housing so much it had bell mouthed the threaded end of the housing so much I had to split the bearing adjuster nut to get it off. The housing was $3500 bare, not even the spring mounts and shock mounts were included and would be special order. The whole unit was full of filings and the bearings in the in the 3rd member were shot as were all the wheel bearings. There were no used units available anywhere at any price.

So one thread beyond where the wheel bearing nut was I was able to put my 4x5 into the wheel well and cleanly slice off the bell mouthed end of the axle and with a thread file get the new wheel bearing nut to fit nicely. Clean and flushed the housing and replaced all the bearings along with new brake shoes and axle and off he went. I was his hero, especially after he got an estimate from the dealer. Last I'd heard he'd put another 50k mi. on it.

The 4x5 just barely fit in the wheel well. And doing by hand I'd still be trying to get that thing sawed through.


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## MrWhoopee

Before retiring, I was in the machine shop trade. As an apprentice, I became quite familiar with an old Dayton 4x6, along with larger and much more expensive saws. When I decided to get back into metalworking after retiring, my very first acquisitions were a Lincoln AC stick welder, a bench-top drill press and an HF 4x6 saw. I now have a Kalamazoo 8CW (8x16). The 4x6 gets used all the time, the Kalamazoo maybe 2-3 times per year. A 4x6 saw is one of the basic, must-have tools for metalworking. I use mine to cut wood too.


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## speedybtx

because: place a 2" round piece of steel on the saw, turn it on, lower blade.  drink a beer while occasionally lubricating the blade.


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## John_Dennis

You have to look at your cost per cut and what you are cutting.  If it is small diameter stock, any kind of saw will do, even a hand saw. Cut it a little long and then machine to the correct dimension.  As stock gets larger, it gets much harder to cut and you have to purchase material as close to the right size as possible if you can not easily cut it.

I spent a month in Taiwan a few years ago, it is a beautiful country.


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## C-Bag

MrWhoopee said:


> Before retiring, I was in the machine shop trade. As an apprentice, I became quite familiar with an old Dayton 4x6, along with larger and much more expensive saws. When I decided to get back into metalworking after retiring, my very first acquisitions were a Lincoln AC stick welder, a bench-top drill press and an HF 4x6 saw. I now have a Kalamazoo 8CW (8x16). The 4x6 gets used all the time, the Kalamazoo maybe 2-3 times per year. A 4x6 saw is one of the basic, must-have tools for metalworking. I use mine to cut wood too.


+1. I almost never get over the capacity of my 4x6. One of my only exceptions is a future project cutting some 10"w channel for a heavy duty machine bench. I'll use the plasma for that. Everything else I do the 4x6 is perfect for and I use my 14" converted verticle bandsaw for small and odd stuff as it much better suited.


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## MontanaLon

Because a saw is cheaper than the out of pocket expenses for our medical care.

There is quite literally nothing I have cut on the saw that I could not have done with a hacksaw. But cutting 1"x3" tool steel bar stock with a hacksaw is not for the faint of arm. Nor is it for people who have less time than money. I made tool holders for my lathe before I had my band saw. It took me the better part of 2 days of work and rest to get through those 4 cuts to make 5 pieces and while that was happening I couldn't do anything else. 

After I got the saw I made another set of them. In the course of 1 evening I was able to make the 4 cuts plus after that first cut I could work on the mill to drill and tap the holes for the set screws and finish the cut edge to make it look nice. About the time I finished those operations, clunk, the next piece was ready to go through the final steps. One evening and they were all finished.

To have it done in a shop would have required a drive to find a shop locally. Then a wait for them to be finished and another drive to pick them up. Plus a per hour rate to have the cuts made. 

It is kind of different here than in most of Asia. 1/2 of our population lives outside of the cities where these services are not right around the corner. I'd be willing to bet that the number of hobby tools is inversely proportional to the population density of the area.


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## nnam

Another thing I didn't mention is that sometimes I don't know all pieces in advance , and add mistake to it, going back and forth to a shop would burn the day versus getting things done.


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## Mitch Alsup

Almost everything I machine starts out as raw stock--and for this a vertical band saw is just about perfect.
On the other hand, if I have a cut that will take several minutes, a horizontal band saw is better still.
Sooner or later I will have both.


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## homebrewed

I own a 4x6 HF bandsaw as well.  In addition to the above comments, I like to use it -- when I can -- to rough cut things like notches and so on as part of the "roughing out" step.  I could (usually) do it with my mill, but since it's a small one it can take quite awhile to remove significant amounts of material.  If I can cut off a 1" section with the bandsaw and leave just a few tenths (of an inch) for the mill, I'm saving a lot of time and may end up with a chunk of metal I can use for something else.  I hate turning perfectly good metal into swarf if I really don't need to.

The other advantage is that I can operate the saw in its vertical position and freehand curves when I need to.  I don't have a CNC machine and not particularly interested in that right now so low-tech alternatives are good.


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## Bi11Hudson

Way back in the day (for me anyway) I did electrical conduit work. Rigid conduit is essentially the same as water pipe, sch 40 galvanized steel. I do water piping (for myself, illegally) as well as electrical work. 

For thickwall pipe, a (Milwaukee) PortaBand works better than a pipe cutter. Less clean-up. With a blade change, it does wood as well. A pipe stand, PortaBand, and power threader were acquired over the years for side work as well as for myself. 

When you have the machines, why pay someone else for a cut? As time went on, I did more and more work for myself than professionally. And I have a personal philosophy that once I buy a tool, professional or personal, I *never* dispose of that tool. 

Working in the field, doing fiber work, the job paid for the tool. It was figured into the original bid. Once the job was done, the tool was my company property. And as the company work tapered down, what was company property eventually became personal property. Blame the IRS and their depreciation tables if you want to throw mud at someone.

Eventually, I acquired a vertical machine for wood working. The PortaBand still gets used for metal work. I would like a horizontal metal cutting machine, but the PortaBand serves well and takes little room.

.


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## NICOLAS LIN

MrWhoopee said:


> Before retiring, I was in the machine shop trade. As an apprentice, I became quite familiar with an old Dayton 4x6, along with larger and much more expensive saws. When I decided to get back into metalworking after retiring, my very first acquisitions were a Lincoln AC stick welder, a bench-top drill press and an HF 4x6 saw. I now have a Kalamazoo 8CW (8x16). The 4x6 gets used all the time, the Kalamazoo maybe 2-3 times per year. A 4x6 saw is one of the basic, must-have tools for metalworking. I use mine to cut wood too.


so, you decided to get back into metalworking, is this means you're working at this region? or it's just your hobby?


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## NICOLAS LIN

MontanaLon said:


> Because a saw is cheaper than the out of pocket expenses for our medical care.
> 
> There is quite literally nothing I have cut on the saw that I could not have done with a hacksaw. But cutting 1"x3" tool steel bar stock with a hacksaw is not for the faint of arm. Nor is it for people who have less time than money. I made tool holders for my lathe before I had my band saw. It took me the better part of 2 days of work and rest to get through those 4 cuts to make 5 pieces and while that was happening I couldn't do anything else.
> 
> After I got the saw I made another set of them. In the course of 1 evening I was able to make the 4 cuts plus after that first cut I could work on the mill to drill and tap the holes for the set screws and finish the cut edge to make it look nice. About the time I finished those operations, clunk, the next piece was ready to go through the final steps. One evening and they were all finished.
> 
> To have it done in a shop would have required a drive to find a shop locally. Then a wait for them to be finished and another drive to pick them up. Plus a per hour rate to have the cuts made.
> 
> It is kind of different here than in most of Asia. 1/2 of our population lives outside of the cities where these services are not right around the corner. I'd be willing to bet that the number of hobby tools is inversely proportional to the population density of the area.


well, time is money, so having a machine tools to make something is way better than just wait someone and pay to them. tks for your feedback.


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## NICOLAS LIN

John_Dennis said:


> You have to look at your cost per cut and what you are cutting.  If it is small diameter stock, any kind of saw will do, even a hand saw. Cut it a little long and then machine to the correct dimension.  As stock gets larger, it gets much harder to cut and you have to purchase material as close to the right size as possible if you can not easily cut it.
> 
> I spent a month in Taiwan a few years ago, it is a beautiful country.


Haha, I am glad to hear this, cheers!! Hope the virus problem go away soon!


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## NICOLAS LIN

C-Bag said:


> Every time I've had something cut at a welding shop it's been $5 a cut when I was needing new stock. The two local welding shops that supply metal are both 45 minutes away.


well, it is not a good idea to drive 45 mins just for few cuts, besides, you have to pay for it...i think i get your point.


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## NICOLAS LIN

Alcap said:


> I always wonder why more people didn't use chop saws more  , that's all I had until a few months ago , getting a HF portable band saw and mounting it vertically .  Now I know !!!   I used that so many times , not worrying about sparks flying or dragging everything outside . Making better cuts and to be able to cut into corners are just some of the reasons I'm hooked


So, is this means you now own a HF bandsaw?


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## Downunder Bob

Interesting thing about my 5x5 is that I can actually cut pieces that are much wider as long as they are not so thick So I can cut 1" x 9" or 2"x 8" and so on down to 4x 6 the next is of course 5 x5. 

The trick is to stand the piece on edge and cut down until the arm contacts the piece, then turn it over and cut from the other side, can be a bit tricky lining up the cut but with a bit of practice it comes out pretty good, as long as that cut edge is going to be machined, no one will ever know. Or if it's going to be welded just dress it up with an angle grinder.

Next time I do one of these cuts, I'll try to remember to take some pics.


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## Jubil

I agree on all the above reasons for using the small band saw. But I want to add another reason.
I used oxy-fuel to cut metal prior to acquiring my 4x6 band saw. I had to turn on oxy and fuel, set regulators, drag hoses outside, cut metal (sometimes not so good cuts with shaky hands, old eyesight etc). Then or at end of day, roll up hoses, turn off oxy and fuel, bleed gas from hoses and close regulators. Then had to grind off slag (detrimental to tooling) and some metal to get closer to dimension. After buying my saw, I just walk stock to saw, measure, clamp in vise, turn on saw, and do a little clean up in the shop if its a large cut. And cut is usually much closer to dimension.
I bought the saw used and it was a great investment and its not even in real good shape.
I don't like angle grinders with cut off wheels, mainly because of safety reasons. I have had and seen some pretty rough kick backs when someone makes a mistake with them.
Chuck


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## savarin

I would love a small metal cutting band saw or powered hacksaw.
Unfortunately I can only afford a small angle grinder.
My angle grinder gets one hell of a workout so I only buy the cheapest available.
Goint through 2"+ steel bar sure puts it through its paces.
Yep, huge cheapskate here.
I would still love a band or electric hack saw though.


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## Buffalo21

My local shop is about $100/hr, with a $40 minimum, so you better be sure of the size and quantity before you go. In the long run, owning a saw was more economic, if you were doing multiple jobs, or it’s a long term hobby.


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## Downunder Bob

savarin said:


> I would love a small metal cutting band saw or powered hacksaw.
> Unfortunately I can only afford a small angle grinder.
> My angle grinder gets one hell of a workout so I only buy the cheapest available.
> Goint through 2"+ steel bar sure puts it through its paces.
> Yep, huge cheapskate here.
> I would still love a band or electric hack saw though.



Charles if you really like angle grinders check out this beast Makita GA5040C 1400W 125mm (5") Variable Speed Angle Grinder. I have had one for about 15 -18 years now and you cant kill it.

It runs full speed for 125mm wheels and you can slow it down to about 1100 RPM still at full torque. At this speed you can polish aluminium and other metals. I used it to polish the forks, clutch housing, and other parts of my 93 FXR Harley came up like brand new.

I've made a 7" guard for mine so I can run 7" wheels, have to slow it down a bit to the correct wheel speed, but it really cuts some metal. But I must confess that since I got my band saw it does most of my cutting except for things that won't fit in it, then out comes the big gun.


This beast has so much power that you really have top hang onto it 1400W that's just shy of 2 HP in your hands


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## Tim9

I think it has more to do with Geography. When I look at the model engineer’s workshops in England... machinery is smaller and most items are dual purposed. Such as using the Boxford lathe as a milling machine and very seldom do I see the floor model bandsaw.  Workshops tend to be small. Not a lot of 2-car garages in London. Of course, when I do see the English shop fully equipped, it’s usually not in London but instead it’s in a barn in a rural setting.
   Taiwan appears to me to be a more urban setting with high population density. So you guys don’t have a lot of 2 car garages.
  But America is a big country with a lot of space plus decent wealth for its middle class. FWIW... most of the New York City based workshops appear to be manufacturing based “home shops” in which the guy might be owner of a large manufacturer with 15-20 employees but he also has a corner dedicated for his hobbies. Those are probably guys who inherited their business and have pretty big warehouses in which they once had 50-75 employees.
  Anyway, we have a lot of space in America and by and large we’re  a fortunate bunch because we do have I high standard of living. I say it all the time.... even the poor are relatively spoiled in America.


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## theperfessor

I can appreciate the many ways of cutting  metal but I will never allow a DRY abrasive cutoff saw in my shop. The grit and stink of the wheels is a total turnoff. If we have to cut off metal with a chop wheel we carry it outside and do it on the driveway.


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## Tim9

I too can’t stand the usage of cut off wheels inside. Nasty dust and grit everywhere. Definitely outside and preferably in the grass because otherwise I have rust lines all over the driveway.


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## nnam

Tim9 said:


> I too can’t stand the usage of cut off wheels inside. Nasty dust and grit everywhere. Definitely outside and preferably in the grass because otherwise I have rust lines all over the driveway.



I cut them outside, with ear protection on, mask, and a fan put a bit far away so it doesn't circulate dust back around.

I am sure face guard would help.  Leather glove didn't help me.  It went right through, almost took my finger off, at a brain dead moment.

Too many lung cancers going in my family.  But thinking of the pain of millions needles in my lung would be enough to do that.


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## MrWhoopee

NICOLAS LIN said:


> so, you decided to get back into metalworking, is this means you're working at this region? or it's just your hobby?



Just a hobby. I never actually wanted to work as a machinist, I just wanted to be able to work metal for myself.


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## markba633csi

Nicolas: You may just as well ask "why does one want to machine metal parts at home?" or "why does one want large industrial metal working machines at home?" 
The Hobby Machinist says it all...it's a hobby. For many of us our hobbies parallel our working careers/interests
-Mark


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## DoubleHelix

I got my 4x6 for $75 from auction.  I bought a new blade, put a new power cord on it, and put some new bearings on it and re-machined the pulleys.  So all told its about $110.

I use it several times a week and its much more pleasant than doing it by hand.  I cut 2-3" aluminum stock frequently which is an utter pain to do by hand.

There are plenty of places I could pay someone to cut material for me but cheapest I found was $5 per cut.  So it would quickly be more expensive than purchasing a small bandsaw.


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## JPMacG

In the US, labor is very expensive.   For the cost of two hours of commercial machine shop time I can purchase an import 4x6 band saw.   I suspect the relative costs of labor versus equipment are very different in Taiwan.


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## C-Bag

The moniker of "hobby" is different from DIY IMHO. I guess you could say a hobby guy is somebody who just gets into something because they think it seems interesting or fun and don't have any background in it. There are a number of people who fit that definition here. But like Mr. Whoppee and others who were in the trades or associated trades we wanted to make stuff on our own so are more DIY than hobby.

Early on I realized I loved to make stuff more than repair them so I bailed on being a car mechanic and went into machinery maintenance, repair and fabrication. I made something for myself that was not commercially available and others want one too. So I had to make equipment to be able to manufacture them in ever more increasing quantity. It seems like most of my life I've been wanting something that was not commercially available so had to make it myself.

YouTube has been very interesting to contrast what my different hero's shops look like. Most of them are pretty good sized as far as the Americans go. But that's in contrast to say Stephan Gottswinter's shop that looks about half the size of my 20'x20' two car garage. There was also a tour of another young German wiz that seemed similar in size. So I would guess that seems about right. Not large, no huge machines, very compact and efficient layouts and both of them seem to do work for money. So not hobby guys by the definition.


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## Aaron_W

MontanaLon said:


> It is kind of different here than in most of Asia. 1/2 of our population lives outside of the cities where these services are not right around the corner. I'd be willing to bet that the number of hobby tools is inversely proportional to the population density of the area.





Tim9 said:


> I think it has more to do with Geography. When I look at the model engineer’s workshops in England... machinery is smaller and most items are dual purposed. Such as using the Boxford lathe as a milling machine and very seldom do I see the floor model bandsaw.  Workshops tend to be small. Not a lot of 2-car garages in London. Of course, when I do see the English shop fully equipped, it’s usually not in London but instead it’s in a barn in a rural setting.
> Taiwan appears to me to be a more urban setting with high population density. So you guys don’t have a lot of 2 car garages.
> But America is a big country with a lot of space plus decent wealth for its middle class. FWIW... most of the New York City based workshops appear to be manufacturing based “home shops” in which the guy might be owner of a large manufacturer with 15-20 employees but he also has a corner dedicated for his hobbies. Those are probably guys who inherited their business and have pretty big warehouses in which they once had 50-75 employees.
> Anyway, we have a lot of space in America and by and large we’re  a fortunate bunch because we do have I high standard of living. I say it all the time.... even the poor are relatively spoiled in America.




I find many people underestimate just how much open space we have in the US. Even people who live here, but haven't traveled on the ground much (flying city to city tends to encourage the idea we are tightly packed).

Population density illustrates this well

Average population density, people per square mile
Australia 9
Canada 10
US 86
UK 700
Taiwan 1680

Density of the 5 most populated US states
California 253 / sq mile
Texas 108 / sq mile
Florida 384 / sq mile
New York 416 / sq mile
Pennsylvania 284 / sq mile

Most / least dense US states
New Jersey 1218 / sq mile
Alaska 1 / sq mile (Wyoming is #2 with 6 / sq mile)

New York City 27,750 / sq mile


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## NICOLAS LIN

markba633csi said:


> Nicolas: You may just as well ask "why does one want to machine metal parts at home?" or "why does one want large industrial metal working machines at home?"
> The Hobby Machinist says it all...it's a hobby. For many of us our hobbies parallel our working careers/interests
> -Mark


Yeah, i understand most of people here are machine hobby or you can say machine lover. It's very different from Asia, because people in Taiwan doesn't do this, if someone have machine at their house in Taiwan , mostly of them own a factory,normal people doesn't do so.


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## NICOLAS LIN

DoubleHelix said:


> I got my 4x6 for $75 from auction.  I bought a new blade, put a new power cord on it, and put some new bearings on it and re-machined the pulleys.  So all told its about $110.
> 
> I use it several times a week and its much more pleasant than doing it by hand.  I cut 2-3" aluminum stock frequently which is an utter pain to do by hand.
> 
> There are plenty of places I could pay someone to cut material for me but cheapest I found was $5 per cut.  So it would quickly be more expensive than purchasing a small bandsaw.


In your case, to invest for a machine seems better than just spend money and ask someone's help. Own a machine earns more.


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## NICOLAS LIN

Dhal22 said:


> As a plumber a Milwaukee deep cut band saw has been an important part of my life since I started the trade in 85.  Only since joining this site last year have I learned that it has even more value clamped upside down in a vise serving as an excellent hobby saw.


I've seem Milwaukee brand, it's a very good product they made.


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## NICOLAS LIN

Chipper5783 said:


> Hi Nicholas, is hobby metal working or home machine shops very common in Tiawan?


Not really, like what i said, people here in Taiwan won't buy a machine and put them at house, if someone buy a machine, we will think they are running a factory. This is what my experience. But it seems many people in states are own a small saw or some mini machine at their house. i think it is very different from Taiwan.


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## C-Bag

NICOLAS LIN said:


> Not really, like what i said, people here in Taiwan won't buy a machine and put them at house, if someone buy a machine, we will think they are running a factory. This is what my experience. But it seems many people in states are own a small saw or some mini machine at their house. i think it is very different from Taiwan.


The US used to be the manufacturer for the world and small what we would call hobby machines were made here. And were used in small manufacturing shops. Now the US hardly makes anything and Asia where nobody does machining as a hobby makes the West's small machines. That's a stunning reality.


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## Buffalo21

When I was growing up, I knew 3 people with a welder, two pipe fitters and my grandfather, I knew 3 people who had mills and lathes, my grandfather and his two brothers, who ran a machine shop. Now about 50% of the people I know, have some kind of welder and about 30% own mills and lathes.

I grew up in a machine shop, so my continuation, now in my shop, seems like second nature.


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## westerner

Aukai said:


> There are a lot of self reliant people here I guess.


As stated above- Our history and landscape gives every American the opportunity to chart his own course.
Many of us have deep roots in the creative and self sufficient mindset of our forefathers. It is central to the foundation of this country. 
I am truly thankful that I was born into this society.


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## FanMan

Nicolas, your question is interesting.  It's easy to forget that the rest of the world doesn't think as we  do and doesn't understand _why_ we think as we do.

For the original question, I have a very old 10" bandsaw that I bought at a junk shop and restored.  Now that I have it, I wonder  how I lived without it, it's just so convenient to cut things that would be  a lot more  work with other tools.  I wanted it mainly for thin aluminum and that's what I used it for most, but I also used it for plastic and wood parts.  As for going out to a commercial shop, that wouldn't be feasible  even if there was a commercial shop within a half hour.  Typically I'm working on something, need to cut out a part for the part quickly, then back to what I was doing.

But I also see that your question isn't just about bandsaws, you're trying to understand the American culture that, unlike most Asian cultures, buys and uses hobby/DIY tools.  It's rooted in the  early history of the country; a pioneer in his log cabin or a ranger out on the range didn't have access to many manufactured goods so he made things himself-- and had the tools to do it.  That's no longer necessary for most people today, but the "I can make (or fix) this" attitude is still very present in  the  culture... though sadly it seems to be diminishing.  

For some  of us, having machine tools are just a means to an end.  I'm an engineer, which means I make things, whether at work or at home, and I need tools to make the things I want.  I guess that's the "DIY" category, though the term "maker" is also used.  Then there's the  true "hobby" machinist, who makes things just for the pleasure of it, and having nice  tools is part of the pleasure.  These are the guys who make fully functional miniature engines, or other neat but useless things.  Most of us probably fall somewhere in between.


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## Tozguy

Nicolas, not only do we hobby machinists want to make things ourselves, sometimes by using only hand tools for the sake of tradition and other times with as many machines as we can afford to buy and house, but we also never throw anything away so that we can avoid buying materials. There are persons in North America who don't know the business end of a screwdriver but they don't come here. You might as well ask a fish why it swims as ask members here why we prefer to do stuff ourselves even if it costs more and takes more time.
Its what we do.


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## C-Bag

This has been an interesting thread because of all the points/factors that I'd not really thought of. Economic, population density all are factors. Many big names like Henry Ford, Edison, Tesla, and most of Silicon Valley, on and on started out with small workshops so I guess that counts as background history. But I think a lot of our old domestic machines were once used in shops and factories. I would guess a lot of the bigger manual machines like Bridgeports etc were put on the market when CNC came along. The de industrialization, economic downturns and machine shops retiring put another wave on the used equipment market. Some getting scrapped, but quite a few being affordable finally for the home shop. It's hard to quantify how many people do metal work at home in the general population. None of my circle of friends do DIY as most are musicians. But I don't feel so lonely in my pursuit of finally being able to make things the right way here amongst the other 30,000 other virtual metal workers here on H-M. But sometimes I do feel a little like Mad Max reusing, recycling, scrounging and up cycling stuff while repairing my old worn out and abused machines.


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## Aukai

Where you are a machine at home is rare, I have a 10' x 20' area in my garage with a 9 x 31 vertical mill, a 12 x 28 lathe, a 4 x 3 welding fixture table, a MIG welder, a TIG welder, 2" x 48" belt/disc sander, and a 80 gal industrial air compressor. Outside in the back is a 20 ton press, with a finger brake for that, a 24" sheet metal pan brake too. I'm hoping to add a 16" x 24" x 24" band saw soon. When you are done with a primary career, I want to keep my mind functioning, similar to doing Sudoku puzzles. There are members, as well as other people who have way more room, and a bunch more machines, it's about capability, and getting back to basic manufacturing that we were known for, but on a much smaller scale. I hope this was clear. I would also like to add that there are many people here who have less, but are much more capable of doing more with less, who are truly gifted..


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## Old Mud

savarin said:


> I would love a small metal cutting band saw or powered hacksaw.
> Unfortunately I can only afford a small angle grinder.
> My angle grinder gets one hell of a workout so I only buy the cheapest available.
> Goint through 2"+ steel bar sure puts it through its paces.
> Yep, huge cheapskate here.
> I would still love a band or electric hack saw though.




  Sav. about 5 years ago i bought a Bauer 5x5 band saw. when my horizontal gave out. $99. at HF and right now $89. on sale. Best thing i have purchased from HF. Use it quite often and to my surprise works well .


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## DavidR8

Aukai said:


> Where you are a machine at home is rare, I have a 10' x 20' area in my garage with a 9 x 31 vertical mill, a 12 x 28 lathe, a 4 x 3 welding fixture table, a MIG welder, a TIG welder, 2" x 48" belt/disc sander, and a 80 gal industrial air compressor. Outside in the back is a 20 ton press, with a finger brake for that, a 24" sheet metal pan brake too. I'm hoping to add a 16" x 24" x 24" band saw soon. When you are done with a primary career, I want to keep my mind functioning, similar to doing Sudoku puzzles. There are members, as well as other people who have way more room, and a bunch more machines, it's about capability, and getting back to basic manufacturing that we were known for, but on a much smaller scale. I hope this was clear. I would also like to add that there are many people here who have less, but are much more capable of doing more with less, who are truly gifted..


Total aside but I'd love to see a photo of how you have your shop arranged. Amazing number of machines and gear in that space!


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## Buffalo21

I have 4 mills, 2 lathes, 7 saws, 4 plasma cutters, 13 welders, shaper, 3 drill presses, 4 surface grinder (one working and 3 for parts) and tons of hand tools. Its an obsession,


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## westerner

C-Bag said:


> But sometimes I do feel a little like Mad Max


I have MANY friends, customers and acquaintances who are makers, builders, fabbers, tinkerers, and just generally handy. 
We are a country full of Mad Max types, making do with what is available. 

The idea above about the improved availabilty of machinery is truly apparent to me, and welcome across a wide segment of my peers.


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## NICOLAS LIN

FanMan said:


> Nicolas, your question is interesting.  It's easy to forget that the rest of the world doesn't think as we  do and doesn't understand _why_ we think as we do.
> 
> For the original question, I have a very old 10" bandsaw that I bought at a junk shop and restored.  Now that I have it, I wonder  how I lived without it, it's just so convenient to cut things that would be  a lot more  work with other tools.  I wanted it mainly for thin aluminum and that's what I used it for most, but I also used it for plastic and wood parts.  As for going out to a commercial shop, that wouldn't be feasible  even if there was a commercial shop within a half hour.  Typically I'm working on something, need to cut out a part for the part quickly, then back to what I was doing.
> 
> But I also see that your question isn't just about bandsaws, you're trying to understand the American culture that, unlike most Asian cultures, buys and uses hobby/DIY tools.  It's rooted in the  early history of the country; a pioneer in his log cabin or a ranger out on the range didn't have access to many manufactured goods so he made things himself-- and had the tools to do it.  That's no longer necessary for most people today, but the "I can make (or fix) this" attitude is still very present in  the  culture... though sadly it seems to be diminishing.
> 
> For some  of us, having machine tools are just a means to an end.  I'm an engineer, which means I make things, whether at work or at home, and I need tools to make the things I want.  I guess that's the "DIY" category, though the term "maker" is also used.  Then there's the  true "hobby" machinist, who makes things just for the pleasure of it, and having nice  tools is part of the pleasure.  These are the guys who make fully functional miniature engines, or other neat but useless things.  Most of us probably fall somewhere in between.


HI, FanMan:
Thanks for your reply on this, I think you give me a very perfect answer, and yes, I agree with you maybe the root cause is different cultures will make people think differently. Besides this, cutting something is one of process during your tasks, so, you need to cut fast and move to next step. Hope my understanding is correct. 

To own a machine is just a method to made a tools, small equipment, modify something, it is a kind of hobby. Like a painter or song writer can create or build something they love. 

Thanks again for your answer, hv a good day!


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## NICOLAS LIN

Buffalo21 said:


> I have 4 mills, 2 lathes, 7 saws, 4 plasma cutters, 13 welders, shaper, 3 drill presses, 4 surface grinder (one working and 3 for parts) and tons of hand tools. Its an obsession,


wow, you must a rich man, any small saw(4 or 5 inches)  you owned?


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## Downunder Bob

Nic, we don't see it as rich, just dedicated to our hobbies. We in Australia have a very similar outlook to our friends in USA, as also do Canadians , New Zealanders, as also do the british and they are our ancestors, I think that has a lot to do with it. Remember the industrial revolution started in Britain, and spread rapidly to the colonies, So we all have inventive repairer and maker genes in our make up.


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## Buffalo21

Not rich, the obsession keeps that in check. its a new machine here, a couple of used machines there, old machinist selling up, small plants going out of business, estate sales and auctions. I’m good at buying, but terrible at selling.

About 50% of my shop output is work related (which helps off set the costs), I make new parts and repair old parts, for the company I work for, the rest is strictly hobby related. I make tooling and jigs, repairs on cars, lawn mowers, snowblowers, motorcycles, snowmobiles, boats and whatever else is needed. I‘m strictly metal working based, no wood working.

I believe the major drive for home shops is self reliance, why hire someone to repair something, when you are capable yourself. As previously stated we stated as a British colony, where the industrial revolution started, but I believe, the US, started out largely as a farming based economy, and you needed to be self reliant, you need it fixed then and now. For a lot of us that self reliant gene is alive and well.

I have a Keller 4 x 6 power hacksaw, a Milwaukee 14” dry cut saw, a Rockwell/Delta 14“ vertical metal cutting bandsaw, a 7” and a 9” metal cutting circular saw, a Milwaukee sawzall, a Milwaukee porta-band saw, a Wilton 9” cold cut saw, a Milwaukee chop saw, a HEM small drop band saw and a Wilton 7 x 12 drop band saw.


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## C-Bag

There are certain machines which have become hobby machine brands. Craftsman, Atlas, Logan and others. Some of these were sold by big chain stores like Sears and Montgomery Wards for the home shop. These are more expensive Now than far larger professional machines. So if you have the room like Buffalo21 has and the means to move them you can pick them up for far less than a small hobby machine. I know it makes no sense. Right now our local Craigslist has several examples where 12x36 Atlas or South Bend are $1500 + and there has been a 22x60 down south with tooling for $1200 for over a year. If you are patient ,vigilant and knowledgeable you can pick up useable machinery for a fraction of what hobby machines go for. Especially what new ones go for. The estate sale where I got my old Atals 7b had a huge Index vert mill and American horizontal mill. The Index weighed at least 2,000# and the American was at least 3-4,000# and they wanted $350ea. There was no way they’d fit in my garage even if I could figure out a way to move them.


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## NICOLAS LIN

Buffalo21 said:


> Not rich, the obsession keeps that in check. its a new machine here, a couple of used machines there, old machinist selling up, small plants going out of business, estate sales and auctions. I’m good at buying, but terrible at selling.
> 
> About 50% of my shop output is work related (which helps off set the costs), I make new parts and repair old parts, for the company I work for, the rest is strictly hobby related. I make tooling and jigs, repairs on cars, lawn mowers, snowblowers, motorcycles, snowmobiles, boats and whatever else is needed. I‘m strictly metal working based, no wood working.
> 
> I believe the major drive for home shops is self reliance, why hire someone to repair something, when you are capable yourself. As previously stated we stated as a British colony, where the industrial revolution started, but I believe, the US, started out largely as a farming based economy, and you needed to be self reliant, you need it fixed then and now. For a lot of us that self reliant gene is alive and well.
> 
> I have a Keller 4 x 6 power hacksaw, a Milwaukee 14” dry cut saw, a Rockwell/Delta 14“ vertical metal cutting bandsaw, a 7” and a 9” metal cutting circular saw, a Milwaukee sawzall, a Milwaukee porta-band saw, a Wilton 9” cold cut saw, a Milwaukee chop saw, a HEM small drop band saw and a Wilton 7 x 12 drop band saw.


Hi, Buffalo:
Understood, these machine just like your investment, tools for living. I always respect someone who can repair things because they are problem solver and turns terrible things in a better way. For example, if some equipment or machine got problem and unable to working, a service boy comes to our factory fix the problem, this will help factory running normal again, earn money again of course.


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## Old Mud

Downunder Bob said:


> Nic, we don't see it as rich, just dedicated to our hobbies. We in Australia have a very similar outlook to our friends in USA, as also do Canadians , New Zealanders, as also do the british and they are our ancestors, I think that has a lot to do with it. Remember the industrial revolution started in Britain, and spread rapidly to the colonies, So we all have inventive repairer and maker genes in our make up.



  " british and they are our ancestors," 

       Hey Whoa there Bob.

      No British in my blood. (not that theirs anything wrong with that)  I'm Portuguese through and through.  We were around when they invented the wheel.


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## Downunder Bob

OLd Mud, sorry I was speaking of the majority, here in downunder land we have a multicultural society. My home city proudly boasts at least one restaurant from every cultural group. [


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## Old Mud

Downunder Bob said:


> OLd Mud, sorry I was speaking of the majority, here in downunder land we have a multicultural society. My home city proudly boasts at least one restaurant from every cultural group. [



  No problemo Bob I was just yankin yer chain. Guess i should go to work now.


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