# Windows 10 is running slow -- Fixed



## JimDawson (Jun 18, 2017)

I have been sitting at the computer for the last 3 weeks or so working on some new software and noted that my computer was running slow especially after the last update from Microsoft.  High disk, CPU, and memory usage.  Initially I thought it was swapping because of the number of programs and windows that I had open and was using a lot of resources.  So to ''fix'' the problem I increased the memory from 4 gig to 8 gig thinking that more memory would help. 

Well, the problem actually got worse, was taking about 10 minutes after a reboot for the computer to become useful again with very high CPU and disk usage.  Adding the memory made my computer almost useless.  So I started digging a bit.  Open the Task Manager (right click on the taskbar)  and look at the Processes.  It turns out that there are two Microsoft services that were causing the problem, neither of which are needed.

*Microsoft Compatibility Telemetry* _''periodically sends usage and performance data to select Microsoft IP addresses so that they can improve user experience and fix potential issues, and is enabled by default.''_  The problem is that it now runs almost continuously, and makes the computer almost useless.

Here is how to turn it off  https://www.drivereasy.com/knowledg...ibility-telemetry-high-disk-usage-solved/#Way 1. Using Group Policy Editor

*SuperFetch* service.  This is a ''helpful'' service that loads pieces of frequently used programs in to unused memory so the programs load faster when you click on them, kind of turning the memory into a hard drive.  Well it turns out that increasing the memory actually slowed the computer down because Windows saw the additional memory as a place to stuff more pieces of programs.  Not only using up memory, but causing high disk usage while loading the crap.  If you don't start the program that Microsoft thinks you wanted to load, then it takes twice as long for the program to load while the current memory data is being stuffed into the Page File system on the HD, then it loads the program.  I can live with my programs taking a few extra seconds to load.

Here is how to turn SuperFetch off:
Disable from Services

Hold the Windows Key, while pressing “R” to bring up the Run dialog box.
Type “services.msc“, then press “Enter“.
The Services window displays. Find “Superfetch” in the list.
Right-click “Superfetch“, then select “Properties“.
Select the “Stop” button if you wish to stop the service.
In the Startup Type box, select Disable
After turning these service off my computer is back to normal.


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## wrmiller (Jun 18, 2017)

Just my opinion Jim, but I don't recommend running Win10 on any system with less than 16GB of memory. The OS has gotten too bloated with crap (as you've discovered) to be functional with anything less.

I have 32GB in my Win10/gamer system because of the high-fidelity flight sims I like to drive, but have not experienced any slowdowns to date. I will look into shutting off that telemetry nonsense though. Microsoft doesn't need to know how I run my system. 

EDIT: Checked and those services are not even configured (don't ever run) on my system. I disabled telemetry just in case, but do you know what activated this 'feature' on you system?


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## mksj (Jun 18, 2017)

I had similar problems to what you encountered, my CPU was running at close to 100% all the time in background (pop up the show task manager button). On one computer it was the update service would not shut down after hours, and then more recently Microsoft's antivirus software was running continuously at full tilt. I had to turn my update service off similar way to what you did for the superfetch, until some later point when a new update was available, and I loaded Avast antiviral program which deactivated the Microsoft antiviral software. It seems like with every update there are more problems that pop up, have the same problem with the smart phones, or should I say dumb phones.

I advise everybody to turn off all the telemetry services that Microsoft uses to track everything that you do.


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## JimDawson (Jun 18, 2017)

wrmiller said:


> Just my opinion Jim, but I don't recommend running Win10 on any system with less than 16GB of memory. The OS has gotten too bloated with crap (as you've discovered) to be functional with anything less.



Unfortunately my antique computer will only handle 8 gigs of memory.  



wrmiller said:


> I disabled telemetry just in case, but do you know what activated this 'feature' on you system?



No idea, but it may have been the latest update.  That is when I first noticed the problem.


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## RandyWilson (Jun 18, 2017)

I fix slow Microsoft machines by doing a reinstall.


 Usually Fedora,


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## Zathros (Jun 18, 2017)

Format drive/ install Ubuntu. Problem solved


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## wrmiller (Jun 18, 2017)

A friend/former engineer of mine tried for years to get me to go to some linux variant. When I asked if I could do the things I do on a Windows machine, he said 'no'. We used it at work of course on many of the test servers I was responsible for, but until it can run my flight sims and games I have no use for it.

Besides, I have X11/Unix compatibility on the iMac I'm typing on right now. What do I need a stripped down version for?


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## wrmiller (Jun 18, 2017)

JimDawson said:


> Unfortunately my antique computer will only handle 8 gigs of memory.



Dude, you can put together a decent winblows system fairly cheap nowadays. At least a 16GB system. Quit spending all your money on your toys....err...machines.


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## pdentrem (Jun 18, 2017)

We have many machines at work that are Windows based. We stopped at Win7 due to the fact it has been the most stable since XT and the machine vendors can not keep up with Microsoft continuing changes! At home I use Ubuntu and from a cold start to onto the internet it takes 30 seconds. Also I can do anything that I need to do and even some programs that I use are Unix based so they run much faster than in the Windows environment. The only reason I have Win7 on a laptop is to be able to use my Autocad 2000. My main Ubuntu  system has 96 G of RAM and I have a couple ram drives setup as well. It kicks Window butt all day long. HP Z800 with 2-5660 CPUs, 256 G SSD and 2 T spin drive. I bought it for under $1000 and it came with Win7 Pro and I made it a dual boot system with primary as Ubuntu.
Pierre


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## Zathros (Jun 18, 2017)

If one needs Windows use à VM I have installed about 4 vm on My 8gb MacMini and that Works Well enough. Mac os x as à host or linux on other toys with either os x beos haiku even Classic amiga and 2 Windows version.


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## wrmiller (Jun 18, 2017)

Zathros said:


> If one needs Windows use à VM I have installed about 4 vm on My 8gb MacMini and that Works Well enough. Mac os x as à host or linux on other toys with either os x beos haiku even Classic amiga and 2 Windows version.
> 
> 
> Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met Tapatalk Pro



Before I bought my Area-51 gamer I had Win7 installed on my iMac using Bootcamp and it work surprisingly well. I used to brag that I had 3 systems (Unix/MacOS/Windows) in one. 

One of these days the makers of games will recognize the Linux platform as a viable alternative to windoze. That would be cool.


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## Karl_T (Jun 18, 2017)

mksj said:


> ...
> 
> I advise everybody to turn off all the telemetry services that Microsoft uses to track everything that you do.



For the dummies in the crowd (me) could you list the things that can be turned off?


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## Zathros (Jun 18, 2017)

If still usable in the latest ms software piriform ccleaner would be helpfull for you.


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## Eremius (Jun 18, 2017)

wrmiller said:


> I used to brag that I had 3 systems (Unix/MacOS/Windows) in one.


Technically you didn't.   *BSD != *nix


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## Splat (Jun 19, 2017)

I know folks running Win10 with only 4GB of RAM, and one guy's got only 2GB. Yes, it works, but you can't have too many apps running. Windows Update can slow down a system when it's checking for udpates. Seen it many times. I was a Linux guy for some years but they could never get it right right outta the box. Either the sound or the video would be messed up or not optimal. It's a shame but it is what it is.


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## pdentrem (Jun 19, 2017)

Never get it right out of the box - sounds like Microsoft!


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## Splat (Jun 19, 2017)

pdentrem said:


> Never get it right out of the box - sounds like Microsoft!



Well, all joking aside you have a better chance of Windows running respectably well than any Linux derivative, at least all the ones I've tried lately.


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## RandyWilson (Jun 19, 2017)

Hardware issues used to be a problem with CHEAP non-standard hardware that depended on a custom driver to mask the hardware faults. This same hardware wouldn't run under Wondows, either, without their special driver. I have had no issues with hardware compatibility for a decade, or more.  And I have lots of installations. Even my Windows machines are really virtual installations on a linux host.  No Windows update eating half of the cpu. No anti-virus virus eating the other half. Little worry about opening email, or websites, or any such.  I know what's going on with the machines; no walled garden. And running linux means never having to start a thread titled "Windows 10 running slow".


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## pdentrem (Jun 19, 2017)

I remember the first time I tried it, Redhat maybe something like version 3? I then tried Mandriva but still it was not ready for prime time. My brother and BIL were using a MythTv box which used Mythdora and this did work. Since then I have built a couple Myth boxes and found Ubuntu to be the easiest to set up. I have had no issues with Ubuntu LTS versions. Started with 12 and I am currently running 16. My current MythTv box also runs Kodi that many people call an Android box.

Any ways back to the topic. I was pointed to used workstations for heavy CPU process programs like photo and video editing. Buy a used HP Z800 series for under $1k, compared to when they were new for many multiples of their current pricing! Get very stable hardware at rock bottom pricing.
Pierre


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## Splat (Jun 19, 2017)

RandyWilson said:


> Hardware issues used to be a problem with CHEAP non-standard hardware that depended on a custom driver to mask the hardware faults. This same hardware wouldn't run under Wondows, either, without their special driver. I have had no issues with hardware compatibility for a decade, or more.  And I have lots of installations. Even my Windows machines are really virtual installations on a linux host.  No Windows update eating half of the cpu. No anti-virus virus eating the other half. Little worry about opening email, or websites, or any such.  I know what's going on with the machines; no walled garden. And running linux means never having to start a thread titled "Windows 10 running slow".



My experiences with Linux running high and mid level hardware has been lacking, too. My servers, sure, I'm using it but on my own personal PC's where I need solid video and audio it's still lacking. BTW, I'm no Windows fanboy by any means. It seems I go back to running Linux at home and laptops every 6 months but I just get let down...again. Anyway,  I didn't mention it before but good post Jim. Hopefully this will help some folks out here.


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## wrmiller (Jun 19, 2017)

Why is it every time someone disagrees with the Linux faithful they have to come out with pitchforks like someone spit on their religion?

It (Linux) is just another choice, like MacOS or Windows. Some folks use/like it, others don't. Enjoy what you like and quit trying to push your choice on everyone else who disagrees with you. Wow.

See what you started Jim?


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## Zathros (Jun 20, 2017)

Just the same as with soccer clubs, religion, politics etc. Just for the sake of argue.



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## JimDawson (Jun 20, 2017)

I'm about ready to roll back to DOS 6.22  I think I have a copy of Borland C for DOS around here somewhere.


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## RandyWilson (Jun 20, 2017)

The other side of the coin is much misinformation and opinions are tossed out as fact, and when corrected it is considered "coming out with pitchforks". Example. 15-20 years ago Apple "borrowed" part of the X11 stack (just not the part that made it unique and useful). This was done to make it easier for their developers to "borrow" programs from the Unix world. So how does this make the modern Linux version "stripped down"?


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## Zathros (Jun 20, 2017)

JimDawson said:


> I'm about ready to roll back to DOS 6.22  I think I have a copy of Borland C for DOS around here somewhere.



Cpm and amigaDos LOL



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## wrmiller (Jun 20, 2017)

JimDawson said:


> I'm about ready to roll back to DOS 6.22  I think I have a copy of Borland C for DOS around here somewhere.



Did some of my best firmware design/coding on DOS. Used borland C, but liked Watcom better as it would generate 186 native. I don't remember if Borland did.


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## brino (Jun 20, 2017)

JimDawson said:


> It turns out that there are two Microsoft services that were causing the problem, neither of which are needed.



....and there's probably more "services" that are not strictly required.

This is exactly the reason I'll be delaying any "upgrades" from Win7 for many years to come.
My computers are stable, do what I want, and still look familiar. I have no reason to change that.

Jim, I know that in Win7 the "Group Policy Editor" was only accessible in "Professional" versions but not in "Home" versions. Do you know if that's true for Win10 as well?

-brino


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## JimDawson (Jun 20, 2017)

brino said:


> Jim, I know that in Win7 the "Group Policy Editor" was only accessible in "Professional" versions but not in "Home" versions. Do you know if that's true for Win10 as well?



I don't know.  I only have the Pro versions.


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## rzbill (Jun 21, 2017)

Recent home convert to Linux Mint 18.1 here.  Happy so far.  It is allowing me to resurrect some decent desktops and laptops that were essentially unusable under the bloat from Mickeysoft after XP.  The final push was my _old_ copy of AutoCAD would not run after a WIN OS upgrade.   Works great under Linux/Wine combo.


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## Splat (Jun 21, 2017)

brino said:


> This is exactly the reason I'll be delaying any "upgrades" from Win7 for many years to come.
> My computers are stable, do what I want, and still look familiar. I have no reason to change that.
> 
> Jim, I know that in Win7 the "Group Policy Editor" was only accessible in "Professional" versions but not in "Home" versions. Do you know if that's true for Win10 as well?



Not in any version of Windows Home, no. But it can be installed. See *here*. These days fancy marketing tries to fool people into thinking their systems are unusable. As for Win7, or any OS, as long as it does what you need in a reasonable amount of time then it's not obsolete.


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## ARKnack (Jun 21, 2017)

I will add another feature you need to turn off. It is windows index service. That is the operation that does not allow you to remove USB stick and causes a lot of grinding on your disk drive. I want to thank Jim for his post. I don't know if will improve my lap top but it is worth a try. 

I will add a item that will most likely flame me, I am tiered of people jumping in on a helpful post saying that I should use Lenox or Apple because it is so much better than widows. I'm sorry but people choose to use the operating system they want and folks just want some help on making it work better. Yes I have used all three and all of them are lacking. I prefer windows and will stick with it. By the way, I have used computer since pre DOS days so I am very familiar with them.


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## Splat (Jun 22, 2017)

ARKnack said:


> I will add another feature you need to turn off. It is windows index service. That is the operation that does not allow you to remove USB stick and causes a lot of grinding on your disk drive. I want to thank Jim for his post. I don't know if will improve my lap top but it is worth a try.
> 
> I will add a item that will most likely flame me, I am tiered of people jumping in on a helpful post saying that I should use Lenox or Apple because it is so much better than widows. I'm sorry but people choose to use the operating system they want and folks just want some help on making it work better. Yes I have used all three and all of them are lacking. I prefer windows and will stick with it. By the way, I have used computer since pre DOS days so I am very familiar with them.



Yes, that's another good one to shut down, ARKnack. Re: pre-DOS days, I dabbled in Fortran and Pascal a little bit but don't remember any of it these days. I am still proficient in DOS but that's because of work. You remember bulletin board systems, aka "BBS"? I ran one for a number of years. Then the Internet happened and that was the end of that. I think FIDO is still around in some countries.


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## Superburban (Jun 22, 2017)

Don't forget the lovely punch cards. And the excitement of getting a 300 baud modem in the mail. I paid less for this laptop, then I did my first daisywheel printer. Somethings are best forgotten.


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## ARKnack (Jun 22, 2017)

Yup I remember.  My first real computer was a 486x66 and had a 9600 baud modem to talk to BBS. Set it up before we went to bed for a download and hoped it didn't crash during the night. Most of the time it did. Our remote field monitors at work were RTL logic at a whopping 45 baud. Paper tape, punch cards, octal, HEX, Fortran, Basic forgot them all. Got out of computers when I changed jobs. Anyone remember core memory.


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## Zathros (Jun 22, 2017)

Before fido(stil is active in .nl) I Used the 27 MHz amateur radio to stransmitt al kinds of digital stuff back then with à commodore 64 and homebrewed converter later got on the bbs board with My amiga500 at first and soon after with amiga2000  
Great discovery and first steps in digital communication. Were exiting times. Grts. 



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## hman (Jun 22, 2017)

ARKnack said:


> Anyone remember core memory.


Somewhere in Corvallis I have a couple of core memory boards from an old HP computer.  Great fun to look at with a microscope!

Nowadays, the term "core memory" refers to the memory circuit resident on the CPU chip


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## hman (Jun 26, 2017)

Well ... it turns out I was wrong.  Found the core memory module here in Phoenix.  So for all you old geezers who want to take a trip down memory lane, here's a 24K (as far as I can tell) core stack.  I broke it open, and the second photo shows two of the four circuit board sides containing ferrite cores.  Note that there are some tiny white blobs visible in the third photo.  The last photo shows a close-up of one.  These blobs are extra insulation applied to wire flaws and/or splices.  All the cores were hand threaded.  Enjoy!


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## brino (Jun 26, 2017)

hman said:


> So for all you old geezers who want to take a trip down memory lane



Intentional or accidental pun?


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## 4GSR (Jun 26, 2017)

hman said:


> Well ... it turns out I was wrong.  Found the core memory module here in Phoenix.  So for all you old geezers who want to take a trip down memory lane, here's a 24K (as far as I can tell) core stack.  I broke it open, and the second photo shows two of the four circuit board sides containing ferrite cores.  Note that there are some tiny white blobs visible in the third photo.  The last photo shows a close-up of one.  These blobs are extra insulation applied to wire flaws and/or splices.  All the cores were hand threaded.  Enjoy!
> View attachment 236370
> View attachment 236371
> View attachment 236372
> ...


Brought back memories....  Helped a electronics technician trouble shoot a GE 550 machine controller (anyone remember the GE 550's?) back in 1979.  The memory was a  mass of wiring like above on a format about 24" x 36" in the back of the panel.  Something like a 2K or 4K memory. We had to physically go in and replace burnt wires with new ones.  Good old days!


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## JimDawson (Jun 26, 2017)

A little update.  I have still been experiencing problems with the computer.  New memory and new hard drive installed.  Finally concluded it's a problem with the mother board, pretty sure one of the memory slots is flakey.  Symptoms have been random program failures, Windows just rebooting the machine because of an error, errors on program load, etc.

But I seemed to have fixed it yesterday.  I concluded that it was time for a new computer, found a nice i7 Dell on Craigslist for $200...... But what seemed to fix the problems was the phone call to the seller.  The instant I hung up from that phone call, my computer quit throwing errors, and has been running fine since.  Talk about AI becoming self aware..........  This is a little scarey.

Still going to buy the Dell because I need another computer for an upcoming project anyway.


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## hman (Jun 26, 2017)

brino said:


> Quoting: "So for all you old geezers who want to take a trip down memory lane"
> Intentional or accidental pun?


O M G!  Much as I'd like to take credit, it wasn't me.  I musta been my evil sub-conchos


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## royesses (Jun 26, 2017)

JimDawson said:


> A little update.  I have still been experiencing problems with the computer.  New memory and new hard drive installed.  Finally concluded it's a problem with the mother board, pretty sure one of the memory slots is flakey.  Symptoms have been random program failures, Windows just rebooting the machine because of an error, errors on program load, etc.
> 
> But I seemed to have fixed it yesterday.  I concluded that it was time for a new computer, found a nice i7 Dell on Craigslist for $200...... But what seemed to fix the problems was the phone call to the seller.  The instant I hung up from that phone call, my computer quit throwing errors, and has been running fine since.  Talk about AI becoming self aware..........  This is a little scarey.
> 
> Still going to buy the Dell because I need another computer for an upcoming project anyway.



A couple of months ago I decided to check the caps on my mainboard since I was having some intermittent errors.. I found 5 bad caps in the CPU power circuits.  After re-capping the computer is now more stable than when it was new. I've always built my own computers but this is the first  Gateway for me. It has lasted 7 years but I'm getting the urge to build a new one. I replaced the power supply with an 850 watt  5 years ago when it started acting flaky.  Power supplies in most pre builts are not very robust.

Roy


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## Splat (Jun 27, 2017)

Yeah, leaking caps are always fun. Left too long they'll eat thru the circuit tracings. Fixable if not too bad but these days I'd just get another mobo. Hey Jim, try running Memtest on the machine. Pro'lly memory but could be a bad hd sector that Windows finally marked off.


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## JimDawson (Jun 27, 2017)

Splat said:


> Hey Jim, try running Memtest on the machine. Pro'lly memory but could be a bad hd sector that Windows finally marked off.



I'll do that when I bring that computer back up.  I just swapped out computers, was still having problems.  Easiest swap I ever did.  Installed the SSD out of the other one and it fired up and ran, only had to load the video drivers.  Everything else worked fine.  That has never happened before.  Seems to be working OK so far, about 30 minutes.


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## graham-xrf (Jun 28, 2017)

pdentrem said:


> The only reason I have Win7 on a laptop is to be able to use my Autocad 2000.
> Pierre


You already have a sweet system, and you already know the advantages. I do keep a W7 PC down on the floor, accessed via RDP or sometimes VNC via a direct GigE network cable between it and the Linux Mint box. That one is for those (now very few) apps that can only live in Windows.
I never did get deep into AutoCad, but now I have found...
THIS --> https://www.freecadweb.org/wiki/Screenshots
              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FreeCAD
The thing is vast, especially the more esoteric applications like link animation, thermal and mechanical stress analysis, 3D printing, but it does the job for me.
Versions from Ubunto are locked into their update cycle, still at 0.16, so I used a PPA repository to load up the latest, known as FreeCAD Daily 0.17, because it has had such massive recent updates features.

Maybe stay with AutoCAD, but check it out FreeCAD - unless, of course, you already have!


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## graham-xrf (Jun 28, 2017)

wrmiller said:


> Did some of my best firmware design/coding on DOS. Used borland C, but liked Watcom better as it would generate 186 native. I don't remember if Borland did.


Even today, radiation-hardened versions of 186 are at the recovery core of satellite systems, and many still handle telemetry. All possible logical states for a 186 are mathematically testable, which is something that became impossible around the time Pentiums came along.

You seem akin to my brother in law, who only retired his Windows 3.1 in 2015, then skipping W95, W98, W2K, ME etc. all the way up to XP, which he had to abandon after only a few weeks, to finally end up with W7. He only dumped the Taxan CRT screen earlier this year!


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## ARKnack (Jun 30, 2017)

Been away for a while. One interesting acritical I read a long time ago about core memory, they use to build them on a Navajo Indian tribe reservation. Theory was they were so good at doing bead work that they had the skills to assemble core memory modules. Don't know if that is a fact.


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## kevinpg (Jul 2, 2017)

wrmiller said:


> Why is it every time someone disagrees with the Linux faithful they have to come out with pitchforks like someone spit on their religion?
> 
> It (Linux) is just another choice, like MacOS or Windows. Some folks use/like it, others don't. Enjoy what you like and quit trying to push your choice on everyone else who disagrees with you. Wow.
> 
> See what you started Jim?


Ahh yes, feeling the wrath of the truculent on the supposed slight to their choice in Operating Systems?  These faithful rushing to attack any affront to their chosen religion, errr OS, I mean. It is tiring on the whole.  In all frankness, I do not understand the Evangelical OS acolyte, these prodigal preachers singing the gospel of (insert OS here).

The OS is a platform to do the things we need to do.  If you choose X or Y, it should be because that OS will help you achieve your ends and one thing that is rarely considered, can it provide the support you need or can you even get that support?  I do spend quite a bit of my time resetting expectations on what support levels are and who is responsible to support which piece. Luckily, that is not an issue for most home and hobby users. Every system and every piece of hardware requires updates and each update should be reviewed for appropriateness prior to installing. This is true of any OS and I do mean any OS. 

With Microsoft or Apple, you have support from the OS provider. This is also true of Red Hat (if you pay for support) and some other flavors of Linux. If you buy hardware (your PC or Laptop) then you likely have at least hardware support with the purchase and if you bundle it, you also roll in software support from their range of supported OSs.  If you buy your PC from a major manufacturer, you may also get what is known as Best Effort which can range from lip service to dogged tenaciousness if it is allowed. I have seen and experienced both. I have even been laughed at by support from at least one major manufacturer when I reminded them the OS I was using was listed as supported but that is another story for another time.

Linux support is, by and large, community based support which means if something  breaks and you cannot find or figure it out or if you need a feature and cannot create the function then you have so submit to the 'community' and then weed through and evaluate the responses. 

I cannot speak for gaming manufacturers but I would not be surprised to learn they are unwilling to develop games or port games to people who are unwilling to even pay for the Operating System to run them, after all, isn't that what game consoles are for?

(I guess I need to say that my opinions are my own and do not reflect the views or opinions of my employer)


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## kevinpg (Jul 2, 2017)

ARKnack said:


> Been away for a while. One interesting acritical I read a long time ago about core memory, they use to build them on a Navajo Indian tribe reservation. Theory was they were so good at doing bead work that they had the skills to assemble core memory modules. Don't know if that is a fact.


Speaking as a Native American in the IT industry, I have to say I have never been asked nor have I ever heard of an interviewer asking about my or anyone else's beading skills as an indicator of their job skills.  That does not mean it did not happen. I have been asked questions about the proper way to conduct a sweat lodge, or how an 'indian' would do something. I have been told I was the 'Token' minority at one place of employment by the HR director. I have been asked and told many things, but I have never, not once, in construction, in medicine, in any odd job, and not in my career in the IT industry, if I were a proficient 'beader'.

Core Memory?  I have not heard anyone even mention core memory since my days at (Software Dev Company) while discussing the history of computers with some friends who had been working on 'big iron' as much as 40 years. All I can say is this, if your memory is accurate and some computer manufacturer did choose to move a facility to the Navajo reservation on the dismally prejudiced idea that Indians are good at beading, then at least it provided some work for some people that may have gotten them out of poverty. I just cannot imagine why they would not then use the Navajo to create pottery enclosures, computer packing blankets, and also fine turquoise and silver adornment for their systems? 

I need to sign off but I have to admit, you floored me but I am not offended. I will also go look this up.


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## kevinpg (Jul 2, 2017)

kevinpg said:


> Speaking as a Native American in the IT industry, I have to say I have never been asked nor have I ever heard of an interviewer asking about my or anyone else's beading skills as an indicator of their job skills.  That does not mean it did not happen. I have been asked questions about the proper way to conduct a sweat lodge, or how an 'indian' would do something. I have been told I was the 'Token' minority at one place of employment by the HR director. I have been asked and told many things, but I have never, not once, in construction, in medicine, in any odd job, and not in my career in the IT industry, if I were a proficient 'beader'.
> 
> Core Memory?  I have not heard anyone even mention core memory since my days at (Software Dev Company) while discussing the history of computers with some friends who had been working on 'big iron' as much as 40 years. All I can say is this, if your memory is accurate and some computer manufacturer did choose to move a facility to the Navajo reservation on the dismally prejudiced idea that Indians are good at beading, then at least it provided some work for some people that may have gotten them out of poverty. I just cannot imagine why they would not then use the Navajo to create pottery enclosures, computer packing blankets, and also fine turquoise and silver adornment for their systems?
> 
> I need to sign off but I have to admit, you floored me but I am not offended.  I will also go look this up.


Ok, I think I found some reference to this but there is no mention of beading skills and it does not say it was ever actually done.  So still looking :
http://www.feb-patrimoine.com/english/64_dps_origin1.htm

"The main memory was assumed initially to be _magnetic core_ in spite of its labor intensive cost figures ; at that time, GE was planning to set up a core weaving factory ...in the Navajo reservation! You should note that the intended manufacturing cost of a 32-bits CPU later was planned to be 8,900 1970-dollars, while memory's cost was expected to be 8,000 dollars per 32K Bytes!"


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## ARKnack (Jul 2, 2017)

Thanks Kevinpg. I certainly don't mean to offend you or anyone else. I just remember that from my college days. It was mentioned by the class professor. Thank you for the link, very interesting. Those costs are amazing. Hard to believe how far we have come.


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## hman (Jul 3, 2017)

OK, still off topic ... but I've been fascinated by core memory since 1965, when I was first exposed to a computer (IBM 7094) and learned to program in Fortran.  Over the years, I've heard various stories about manufacturers hiring weavers and other types of persnickerty ladies, from Japan and various other places, to string the beads.  Then in the late '60s I heard some wonderful news about NCR's "rod" memory.  Instead of hand threading wires through donuts, NCR devised a way to wrap wires around rods.  They used a magnetic field to align the rods perpendicular to a pre-drilled board.  Then somehow fastened them in place.  Then used machines to wrap the wires around them.  No more hand labor, and a huge cost savings!  Unfortunately, solid state memory came along shortly thereafter, and magnetic memory became a thing of the past.

1968 NCR ad:



For those who're not familiar with this dinosaur-level technology, I'll give a quick explanation of how it worked:

Each core (bit) in a grid typically had three wires threaded through the donut hole - X and Y wires, unique to each row (something like the byte or word address) and column (bit position in the byte or word) of the plane, plus a sense wire, which would typically be run through a large number of rows and/or columns.

To write a 1 or 0 (represented in the core by the direction of magnetization), one X wire and one Y wire would each be supplied with half the current needed to magnetize the core.  Only the selected core would be set, because magnetic hysteresis prevented anything less than full current from affecting any of the other cores.  The direction of the currents would determine the direction in which the core was magnetized.

To read a bit, the memory module would try to set (write) the selected core to the 0 state.  The sense wire would detect whether the state was thereby changed or unchanged.  If it was changed, the memory module would go through a second cycle and restore the original (1) state.  This was known as a "destructive read".

Bottom line- you could only access one bit at a time.  And the cycle time in the early days was 6 microseconds.  As with everything else, it did go down ... to about 0.6 microseconds in the mid '70s [info from Wikipedia article].  To put this in perspective, 0.6 milliseconds = 1.67 MHZ.  Compare that to the GHZ speed of your current hardware!

The initial cost of core memory was about $1 per bit.  It fell to 1¢ per bit by 1974, when solid state memory took over.

Further refinements - If you look at the core planes photos I posted earlier, you'll see that there are several grids of cores.  These grids were organized by the designer to optimize how the memory would be used. "For instance, a machine might use 32 grids of core with a single bit of the 32-bit word in each one, and the controller could access the entire 32-bit word in a single read/write cycle." [Wikipedia article]

Here are links to articles that might be of interest:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic-core_memory
https://ub.fnwi.uva.nl/computermuseum/CoreMemory.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_memory
http://www.computerhistory.org/revolution/memory-storage/8/253
https://nationalmaglab.org/educatio...lay/interactive/magnetic-core-memory-tutorial
http://www.chipsetc.com/rod-memory.html


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## Desolus (Jul 5, 2017)

DEATH TO WINBLOWS!

Except for games, it is best for games...

I have a monster of a computer...
Watercooled i7 4790k
32gb ddr3
Two watercooled gtx 1080 titans
12TB in a 9TB RAID 5 setup
5TB in SSDs 

And I have a 200$ linux box for cnc, cad and cam...

The crazy thing is that my monster doesn't do much better than the $200 linux box at what the Linux box was designed for. 

My windows machine even has a Linux partition because for 3d rendering and animation I get about 60% more preformance, which depending can mean days of render time...


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## KBeitz (Oct 5, 2018)

Hey.... thanks for the info... I'm still running XP and i will until I cant.
You'r info helped me with a program that I could not get rid of.  It
was bothering me for about a year. I could not even find it in redg-edit.
Skimming through services.msc found it for me. I disabled it. thanks again.

Talking about old computers I started out with a Vic-20...


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## Dabbler (Oct 5, 2018)

If I could get Win 7 to run on my new machines, I'd use it in a heartbeat.  The latest PC standards weren't thought of during Win 7 days.  My Win 10 (ugh.)  runs on 4GB memory, but someday I'll upgrade it.


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## MrWhoopee (Oct 6, 2018)

Dabbler said:


> If I could get Win 7 to run on my new machines, I'd use it in a heartbeat.  The latest PC standards weren't thought of during Win 7 days.  My Win 10 (ugh.)  runs on 4GB memory, but someday I'll upgrade it.



I'm running AutoCAD 2000 in an XP virtual machine using VirtualBox on a Windows 10 laptop. VirtualBox is free from Oracle.
https://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Downloads
There are other popular options.

You can run nearly any OS you want in a virtual machine regardless of what the OS of the host computer is. It's not that hard to set up, if you can do a Windows installation from disk, you're advanced enough. I've installed it for several of my customers so they can continue to use old software. The other big advantage is that the whole "computer" is contained in one file which is easily backed-up or transferred to another computer when you upgrade. Just imagine getting a new computer and having it look, feel and run exactly like the old one without having to reinstall your programs and data.


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## Dabbler (Oct 6, 2018)

MrWhoopee said:


> You can run nearly any OS you want in a virtual machine regardless of what the OS of the host computer is.



With only 4GB of memory, a VM won't run well under Win 10.  If I go to 16GB, your suggestion makes sense.  I don't hate Win 10 -per se- I hate its constant updates and slow performance, which will stay the same if I use a VM under it.  I have taken care of the update problem. Performance can't be helped much, even with lots of memory:  Win 10 is a CPU hog.


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## T Bredehoft (Oct 6, 2018)

Thanks, Jim, That's the solution to the problem I've been having.


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## Stonebriar (Oct 6, 2018)

I run windows 10 Pro and have very few issues. I also have linux and mostly use it to play with, I run MVS 3.8 on top of it. Of course I was in IT from 1972-2015


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## Dabbler (Oct 6, 2018)

Stonebriar, I suspect you have more than 4Gb of memory...  

I cannot allow updates because of a history of M$ destroying my firewalls and VPN software (5 times until I stopped all updates).  I use about 200 apps, some of which break on each update.  I protect my computer in other ways than patching the OS, and I've never been infected.  BTW I worked in IT for one of the big 5 consulting firms for 15 years, 35 years as a consultant total.  (So I'm not a nube)...


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## Stonebriar (Oct 7, 2018)

I have 32gb memory


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