# Aloris vs Dorian QCTP?



## coolidge (Mar 23, 2014)

My G4003G came with a piston type QCTP. Its okay, the quality of the tool holders are sub-par with half the height screws tapped crooked and overly loose. Now that I have the DroPros EL400 DRO and some indexable tooling I'm thinking of upgrading to the Aloris or Dorian QCTP. Does anyone have an opinion one way or the other?

The Dorian looks sexy, I'm trying to ignore that. What I don't get is this AXA, BXA, CXA stuff is supposed to be 'industry standard' yet the Aloris and Dorian BXA are different. The Aloris BXA is rated for 1/4" to 5/8" shank tooling. The Dorian BXA is rated for 5/8" to 1" tooling. Of course all my new indexable tooling is 1/2". The best deal is on the Dorian AXA is a 5 piece set with 4 tool holders I'd use for $515. There is an Aloris BXA 3 piece set for $475.


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## darkzero (Mar 23, 2014)

I never had an Aloris but I did have a DTM which are said to have been created/made by employees who used to work for Aloris that supposedly improved on the Aloris design. Even made in the same city as Aloris but they are no longer manufacturered.

I do have a Dorian SDN30BXA now & I love it. Dorians follow industry standard also, their BXA (SDN30) accepts the same size tools as Aloris. They just list their specs a bit differently. When you see 5/8"-1", generally that means 5/8" shanks max for their turning tools & 1" max for boring bars. And for the boring bar, it's not the holders with the v slot that can hold boring bars, it's 1" for their holders that hold boring bars only, this is the same for Aloris capacities.

But that doesn't mean absolute max. Both Aloris & Dorian make over sized holders that can accept 1 shank size higher. So for AXA oversized holders they can fit 5/8" instead of 1/2", BXA oversized 3/4" instead of 5/8", etc. (BTW China does not make copies of these oversized holders. But that doesn't necessarily mean you can use the oversized holders with their max capacities, you still have to have enough compound slide to spindle centerline height in order to use those max capacities, just cause you can fit a 3/4" shank tool in an oversized holder on a BXA toolpost, the cutting height might sit higher than spindle centerline on a lathe.

Now here's where Dorian is a bit different in relation to that 5/8"-1" capacity for their BXA. Again their standard BXA holders fir 5/8" max. Their older oversized holders fit 3/4" max just like Aloris' oversized holders. But Dorian's later oversized holders can fit 1" max. I have one of these oversized holders but I don't have enough height to use a 1" shank tool. These oversized holders are expensive & not as easy to find as the Aloris oversize holders.

I also have a 12x36 & IMO BXA is the better choice for it, more rigidity. You can still use an AXA on it but I find it to be on the small side. Plus there are much more tools available in 5/8" than 1/2". Sure you can always mill down shanks & I have but I prefer to avoid that whenever possible. I can add more thoughts & pics but my post has already got too long.

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Ok, I'll add one major feature difference that the Dorian has over others. With the Dorian Wedge Lock SQCTP you can pin the tool post to prevent spinning the tool post. I've had the tool post move when fully form knurling Ti 6-4 no matter how hard I cranked down on the nut. Then I remember the 2 pins....


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## itsme_Bernie (Mar 23, 2014)

I found NOS 1inch boring bar holders for my AXA DTM.

Besides that pinning, which is a cool option, I don't know of much more difference between Aloris and Dorian, but I will re-read the above posts and see if I learn something!  Hah hah.

But I love my DTM set.


Bernie


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## kd4gij (Mar 23, 2014)

First you can replace all the screws with good quality screws and improve it alot. Second with a quality import like Phase ll  you won't find eny performance difference than the top 2. I have used all 3 side by side besides looks thay all do the job well.


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## LEEQ (Mar 23, 2014)

You might take a peek at the home page of CDCO.com. They have their Bostar wedge type post and holder sets on sale. You will save hundreds over the brands you are looking at. My set came looking very nice and I don't see the need to replace Chinese screws on this one. The Axa size was$105 plus abt$20 shipping. That amounts to free shipping when comparing prices to others selling the same set. The fellow was friendly when we spoke and I got my order fairly quick.


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## coolidge (Mar 23, 2014)

Darkzero thank you very much I wanted to go with the Dorian because they have better starter set deals and that was quite helpful. In fact it was definitive. Looks like Dorian will machine my T nut for free also. I have 1.320" to spindle centerline from the top of my compound which is a better fit for BXA.

Guys I hear you on the China tool holders but I have been burned twice now so I'm probably done with them. Plus I like to support USA manufactures when I can, I have a shop full of Asian machines so I'll throw the USA guys a bone.


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## coolidge (Mar 23, 2014)

Well the Dorian 14 piece starter set is out, I think its a good value for $785 which was suckering me in but had to be honest with myself other than the threading tool I have the rest of that tooling already. I'm looking now at the 5 piece set where you get the tool post, 2 turning/facing holders and 2 turning/facing/boring holders. Grizzly has this for $615 but I'd have to pay shipping plus sales tax  Grainger and similar crack smokers want over $1,000 for this set though.

With this decided on next up is what ID/OD threading tools and inserts to go with. :think1:


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## darkzero (Mar 24, 2014)

coolidge said:


> Well the Dorian 14 piece starter set is out, I think its a good value for $785 which was suckering me in but had to be honest with myself other than the threading tool I have the rest of that tooling already. I'm looking now at the 5 piece set where you get the tool post, 2 turning/facing holders and 2 turning/facing/boring holders. Grizzly has this for $615 but I'd have to pay shipping plus sales tax  Grainger and similar crack smokers want over $1,000 for this set though.
> 
> With this decided on next up is what ID/OD threading tools and inserts to go with. :think1:



Great choice!

Although I do have some Dorian tool holders, most of my holders are China & still repeat excellent, it's all in the tool post. After using quality USA quick change tool posts like Aloris, DTM, & Armstrong I just couldn't go back to a China one & is why I went with the Dorian, couldn't be happier. The DTMs are very nice too, just hard to find in the BXA size (TP75A) but they do pop up on ebay every so often.

As for threading tools, I highly recommend Carmex. That's all I use now external & internal threading. Great prices from Enco or Curtis at Latheinserts.com


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## coolidge (Mar 24, 2014)

Yeah Carmex has been the most popular recommendation so far in my research. Have you ever ordered from http://www.usshoptools.com/ I ordered my CMGT inserts from them at a good price, my brother has ordered quite a bit from them and their prices seem quite competitive. If I go Enco I have to pay sales tax and Enco always seems to find the most expensive way to ship my order like from several locations driving up the shipping.


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## Jeff in Pa (Mar 25, 2014)

When I purchased my Monarch CK 12, it had a BXA size Phase II piston type QCTP.  It worked fine for normal turning but as soon as I tried to use the cut off blade, it would pivot.

 I watch ebay for a couple months until I finally won a used Aloris  BXA wedge QCTP for about $130 shipped.  It did not have the handle but was complete otherwise. ( A piece of high strength 1/2-20 NF all thread, a length of stainless tubing and a brass ball and it works perfectly ).  They usually go on ebay  for anywhere for $150-$200 and up depending on the amount of tooling.

 I have some Phase II holders, a couple china imports and I purchased two Dorian holders of ebay ( Zoro Tools ) that hold 1" shank indexable carbide insert tools for $57.60

 I'm a machinist by trade and I am used to industrial quality machines.  This is a good way to go and also a good value.  Let somebody else take the "brand new tooling" hit on something that works quite well second hand.


 Here's I'm using one of those 1" Dorian tool holder to part off a piece  I made for a friend.  1/8" wide carbide insert cut off tool.  ( I got vibration since it's difficult to feed consistently with one hand )

[video=youtube;J1X2diPaq5s]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1X2diPaq5s[/video]


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## coolidge (Mar 25, 2014)

Thanks Jeff, my issue is I'm picky as hell about my tools. I'll buy a used machine but tools and underwear are two things I buy new.

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PS: Jeff just gave me an idea...I don't like fishing my parts out from the chip tray half beat up after parting off...tail stock mounted parts catcher :think1:


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## darkzero (Mar 25, 2014)

coolidge said:


> Have you ever ordered from http://www.usshoptools.com/



Never purchased from them before. I saw them at Westec a few tears ago & picked up a catalog. Can't remember why but there was a reason why I choose not buy from them & eventually threw their catalog out.




coolidge said:


> I'm picky as hell about my tools. I'll buy a used machine but tools and underwear are two things I buy new.



I can relate, although my machines are China I learned my lesson & try to stay far away from China tools as possible, I do have exceptions though. I have no problem buying used but for me they have to be in great condition. If they have personal engravings on them I almost always turn away. 





coolidge said:


> Jeff just gave me an idea...I don't like fishing my parts out from  the chip tray half beat up after parting off...tail stock mounted parts  catcher :think1:



I never let parts just fall when parting off. I always catch them. I haven't got around to making some type of parts catcher but for anything I part off that has a through hole, that's easy....


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## coolidge (Mar 26, 2014)

Yeah that's a neat trick for catching parts, so long as it doesn't get kicked up in the chuck and batted into my forehead. That parting pic reminds me, I forgot to add parting tool inserts to my order today ack! US Shop Tools so far is okay, this is my 2nd order from them. I can find the inserts for the same price elsewhere but I pay no sales tax through them. Many of the other suppliers like Grainger, MSC, even Enco on some things are way over priced. Drillspot is another one. $20 to $30 for an insert that other places are selling for $13. 

Carmex threading tool holders and inserts are inbound! ETA probably Friday. I went with a SIR0500M16B internal threading bar, a SER0625H16 external tool holder, and one insert each internal and external in a couple different grades, one for aluminum/brass another for steel.

I fixed the 3 jaw chuck and tried out these sharp CCGT polished inserts on a piece of oak this evening, really good results. This was at 270 rpms, .004 feed. I tried 360 and it was about the same, 800 was noticeably rougher perhaps slowing down the feed would have been better. These inserts are awesome on end grain and I had used that corner on some aluminum before this test so its settled the metal lathe can turn wood.


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## Jeff in Pa (Mar 27, 2014)

coolidge said:


> Thanks Jeff, my issue is I'm picky as hell about my tools. I'll buy a used machine but tools and underwear are two things I buy new.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> PS: Jeff just gave me an idea...I don't like fishing my parts out from the chip tray half beat up after parting off...tail stock mounted parts catcher :think1:




  My criteria for tooling is good condition so it works as new.  I purchased a 1" shank Valentine carbide insert grooving tool off ebay for $15 shipped.  In my opinion, a $160 tool for $10 plus shipping leaves more funds for more tooling.  My 1" shank CNMG insert tool was under $20 

 Very good used spreads the funds


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## coolidge (Mar 28, 2014)

That's fair Jeff, I guess I'm not opposed to buying good quality used tool holders so long as they are not beat up rusted and overpriced...which pretty much describes everything on my local craigslist. I have not purchased much on ebay in recent years, I got tired of dealing with flaky sellers who take 3 weeks to ship items out then freak out when you ask them where your item is or ignore you altogether.


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## darkzero (Mar 29, 2014)

coolidge said:


> US Shop Tools so far is okay, this is my 2nd order from them. I can find the inserts for the same price elsewhere but I pay no sales tax through them. Many of the other suppliers like Grainger, MSC, even Enco on some things are way over priced. Drillspot is another one. $20 to $30 for an insert that other places are selling for $13.



I guess I'm too cheap & spoiled these days. I very rarely would pay full retail on inserts, on only a few of my tool holders I have to but those are not used on a regular basis so that's ok. I get all my inserts from ebay. Despite all the horror stories I hear, I would say I've had 99% good transactions on ebay in the past 10+ years. Not only is it up to the seller but IMO the buyer should lso know what they are buying.

For the inserts I use the most, I never pay more than $5 per insert. Like the Ingersol CCGT 31.51 inserts I have, I got 50 inserts for $153, that's $3.06 per insert so I'm set for a while. I got 50 Ingersol SCGT 31.52 inserts for $130, $2.60 per insert. 40 Valenite CCGT 21.51 inserts for $50, $1.25 per insert. Not too long ago I got 30 Sandvik DCGT 31.51 inserts for $60, $2 per insert. And just last week I got 20 Sandvik DCGT 31.50 inserts for $36.66, $1.83 per insert. All new in unopened packaging & pretty much all of these inserts go for more than $10 per insert. It seems the price of carbides have gone up on ebay but the deals can still be found. 

I can go on with my CNMG, CNGG, & parting inserts as well as the tools like solid carbide boring bars but you get the idea. As a hobbyist, these huge savings are awesome.


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## coolidge (Mar 29, 2014)

I have been cruising ebay for a few days now DZ no luck on anything yet, slim pickings for Dorian BXA told holders. I did get my threading order in from US Shop Tools...one insert was supposed to be a Carmex K20 uncoated insert for aluminum/brass but they shipped me a coated insert. My replacement 4 jaw chuck came in, it has a big ass gouge in one of the jaw screws that hangs up. I fixed my 3 jaw chuck one of the cam bolts had a mushed thread and the factory just cranked it in there with a wrench. So dealing with some quality issues this week. :angryfire: On the bright side this week has been GRRRRRAAHHHHH crash free!


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## Jeff in Pa (Mar 29, 2014)

coolidge said:


> I have been cruising ebay for a few days now DZ no luck on anything yet, *slim pickings for Dorian BXA told holders*...................



 Sent you a PM 

 Jeff


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