# Mill is 3-phase 440v, I have 1-phase 220v - What kind of options do I have?



## ScrapMetal

I've seen plenty of talk on the VFDs and RFCs but haven't gleaned enough information to make any intelligent decisions on how to, or even if I can, find a good solution to this little dilemma.

I just purchased a Wells-Index 860C mill from a dealer up in MI and we've yet to work out the delivery but I need to start thinking about how I'm going to power it.  The mill is set up for 3-phase 440v but in my little one stall garage/shop I only have 1-phase 220v (and 110v of course).

Do I have any options for VFDs/RFCs or will I need to bite the bullet and call an electrician to run another line to my humble hole?  I suppose that there would also be the option of changing out the motor(s) but wouldn't that create other problems with the power feeds?

Side note:  I do have electronics experience though it dates back to discrete components and hasn't been used much in the last 30 years but I've never had to deal directly with power systems, especially not the kind involved here.

So, any help or advice would be most appreciated,

Thanks,

-Ron


----------



## Old Iron

Ron you can prolly rewire the motor for 220 3 phase then go with a VFD or RPC.

I don't think you want to run 3 phase to your shop. I don't know about there byt here they wanted 1800. to run a drop to my shop and its right out side.

I'm using a RPC. but thats not for every one either. Mite be better for you to go with a VFD.

Paul


----------



## Rbeckett

Was gonna suggest an RPC, but old Iron beat me to it.  Consider the cost carefully since once you get three phase power you will be able to take advantage of buying cheaper three phase machines.  Just sayin, make sure you get extra capacity while your shopping around.
Bob


----------



## Gary Max

And if you go with a RPC you will be able to run several machines from it---- which means you can buy more machines.
:whistle: I have my SB-16 and a tapping machine powered from the same RPC.


----------



## 8ntsane

Hey Ron

You can go a few ways really. I dont know anything about your mill, but assuming it has to separate motors. You should first think about checking prices on VFDs if thats the way you want to go.

Re wiring for 220 is some thing only a specialist would be able to tell you for sure. I have my mill, a 220/440 wired for 220
So I think you would be ok doing so, but when the machine get to you, you will be able to check deeper.

RPC is maybe your cheaper route to go, since that mill probably has 2 main drive motors, and possible coolant pump motor totaling 3

Just to give you a idea of how I have run different machines in a home shop, there is many ways to go here. My shop is the 1 car garage at home too. But that still didnt stop me from running my 600v 5hp lathe. I run it with a small transformer, 220 1 phase in, to the TF, 220>600 , into a 600v VFD then to the lathe. The transformer is single phase. I have been running this for a few yrs now, as I didnt feel like swappin the motor out to 220v.

You also can use a RPC, and 3 phase transformer. My friend has that set up at his place, seems all his stuff is every thing but 220v. So in his case the main power is 220 1 phase from the house. Feeding a RPC . THe RPC feeds a 3 phase transformer.> then out to the machine. 

His RPC is used to send the power to different transformers, depending on what voltage he needs for separate machines.
So, RPC,VFD, with or without transformer is doable. As arreadt said, my mill, a 220/440 machine was rewired for 220, and currently on a VFD. The lathe is on a 220/600 transformer with a 600v Teco FM500 VFD

I hope I didnt confuse you with all this


----------



## ScrapMetal

Good information guys (and no, I'm not any more confused than when I started ) except for Gary - I'm telling my wife it's all your fault when I get more machines. 

The VFD sounded like the least expensive option but upon consideration it might not be the best way to go.  This mill has two main motors (I don't think it has any coolant pumps.) as well as the power feeds/drawbar and DRO although I'm not sure how those are powered.

Here's the information I do have:


> *Wells Index Model 860*
> 
> Serial #20329
> 
> _Specifications:_
> Table                                                      9"x46", 3 T-slots
> Dial graduations                                        .001
> Longitudinal range                                     32"
> Cross range                                             10"
> Vertical-knee range                                   16 ½"
> 
> _Vertical Spindle_
> Quill                                                       5"
> Head tilt forward & back                            45° & 45°
> Head rotation, side to side                         180° & 180°
> Spindle nose to top of table                       21 ½" max
> 0 min
> Spindle Speeds
> Vertical/Horizontal                                    Variable speed
> 42 to 425 RPM back gear
> 412 to 4200 RPM direct drive
> Spindle motor                                          2 Hp, variable speed
> Approx dimensions                                   68"D x 102"W x 85"H
> Approx weight                                         2,800 lbs
> Power                                                   440 volts
> 
> Machine is equipped with power drawbar, power feed on X & Y but has a problem on X, and Sargon 2 Axis DRO but DRO box is bad.















I was also told that this machine came from some kind of trade school to it shouldn't have seen a production environment.  I didn't mind the DRO or the X-feed being buggered as I figure that saved the machine a lot of wear and tear.  If it's "broke" they don't use it, right? :thinking: :biggrin:

-Ron


----------



## Gary Max

Right Ron----like she is going to believe that.
:thinking:You are going to have to come up with something better.

Adopt a machine club----save them from the scarp yards of America
Do your part to save a machine.
New key word----Green

Nahh :shrugs:


----------



## Charley Davidson

That's one massive machine"jawdrop:  Your draw bar is most likely air powered.

From what I heard recently you can run a 440 3phase mashing on 220 3phase without any issues as long as you don't use all it's needed power, but I really know nothing.


----------



## ScrapMetal

Gary Max said:


> Right Ron----like she is going to believe that.
> :thinking:You are going to have to come up with something better.
> 
> Adopt a machine club----save them from the scarp yards of America
> Do your part to save a machine.
> New key word----Green
> 
> Nahh :shrugs:



Don't say Nah!  I like where this is going.  We can be like Shriners but with metal working machines instead of little cars. :biggrin:




Charley Davidson said:


> That's one massive machine"jawdrop:  Your draw bar is most likely air powered.
> 
> From what I heard recently you can run a 440 3phase mashing on 220 3phase without any issues as long as you don't use all it's needed power, but I really know nothing.



I wouldn't say "massive" exactly , it's a bit bigger than an average Bridgeport.  Charlie, if you know "nothing" I'm pretty sure I'm ruining the bell curve on the downside. :scared:  Is it possible to have a negative amount of knowledge? :biggrin:

I'll look at some of the info I have on this series of mill and see if I can get any clues on just what it's all about.

This is part of a quote I got straight from Wells-Index for a rebuilt 860C so it may have features or particulars not found on the used mill that I have purchased.



> few of the features on the rebuilt Model 860C are:
> A. 3HP Baldor spindle motors on both horizontal and vertical spindles.
> B. Variable speed drive on both vertical and horizontal spindles.
> C. Power feed on the vertical quill Available at all spindle speeds and rated for a 5/8” drill.
> D. Electric Controls - includes reversing switches and all wiring.
> E. One type “B” arbor support for 1.875 OD bearings.
> F. A one-shot lubrication system.
> G. Way covers.
> H. Precision ground Acme lead screws with new acme nuts.
> 
> MODEL 860C SPECIFICATIONS
> 
> TABLE
> Size Overall .......................................................... 9” x 46”
> 
> T-Slots:
> Number ................................................................. 3
> Size ..................................................................... 5/8”
> Distance Between ................................................... 2-1/4”
> Dial Graduations ..................................................... 0.001”
> 
> RANGE
> Longitudinal ........................................................... 32”
> Cross ................................................................... 12”
> Vertical Knee ......................................................... 16-1/2”
> Center of Table to Column Face - Max ........................ 19-1/2”
> Center of Table to Column Face - Min ......................... 5-1/2”
> 
> VERTICAL SPINDLE
> Quill Travel ............................................................ 5”
> Head Tilt - Forward & Backward ................................ 45 deg.
> Head Rotation - Side to Side .................................... 90 deg.
> Turret Rotation on Column ....................................... 360 deg.
> Spindle Nose to Top of Table - Max ........................... 21-1/2”
> Spindle Nose to Top of Table - Min ............................ 0”
> Center of Spindle to Column Face - Max ..................... 28-3/8”
> Center of Spindle to Column Face - Min ...................... 2-3/8”
> Spindle Taper (uses drawbar) ................................... R-8
> Spindle Rotation .................................................... Forward and Reverse
> Spindle Speeds - Infinitely Variable:
> Back Gears ........................................................... 42 to 425 RPM
> Direct Drive .......................................................... 412 to 4200 RPM
> Spindle Motor ....................................................... 2HP
> Quill Feeds (3) - Per Spindle Revolution ..................... .0015”, 0.003”, 0.006”
> 
> HORIZONTAL SPINDLE
> Spindle Housing Rotation ........................................ 30 deg.
> Centerline of Spindle to Top of Table - Max ................ 16-1/2”
> Centerline of Spindle to Top of Table - Min ................. 0”
> Spindle Taper (uses drawbar) .................................. #40MMT, with 5/8”-11 Drawbar
> Spindle Rotation ................................................... Forward and Reverse
> Spindle Speeds - Infinitely Variable:
> Back Gear ........................................................... 42 to 425 RPM
> Direct Drive ......................................................... 412 to 4200 RPM
> 
> OVERARM
> Underside to Centerline of Horizontal Spindle ............. 7-7/8”
> End of Spindle to Bushing in Arbor Support ................ 20-1/2”
> Arbor Length Accommodated - Max ......................... 18”
> 
> FLOOR SPACE
> Front to Back ...................................................... 76”
> Left to Right ....................................................... 107”
> 
> HEIGHT OVERALL
> With Vertical Head ............................................... 90”
> Less Vertical Head ............................................... 66”
> 
> VOLTAGE Available wired for 440 volt 3 phase, 220 volt 3 phase or 220 volt single phase.
> SHIPPING WEIGHT (Approximate)
> with Vertical Head ...(860C)................................... 3600 lbs.



Between the Wells stuff and what the seller posted, that is the total extent of my "machine" knowledge.

-Ron


----------



## Kevinb71

Ron
I think I need to clear something up here. You definately CAN NOT run a 440V machine on 220v for an extended time without causing damage. Completely unloaded in may work a little while. Load it even a little and bad things will start to happen. I do have some good news in that a great many 440v 3ph motors and also be reconnected for 220v. I, in my other life not maching, am an electrician. If the motor is reconnectable to 220v it will say so on the motor tag. Under voltage it will say 220/440 or perhaps 230/460. Also then under the amperage it will have two listings 6.8/3.4 for a 2HP motor for example. If it shows something like this then it can be reconnected. The other motors will need to be dual voltage as well. There should also be a diagram that shows the wiring connections for each voltage. I have not seen a lot of Bridgeports so i don't know how common dual voltage is.

Now to try to give you a solution if it isn't dual voltage.

1. There are VFD's that will take your 220v 1ph power and give out 440v 3ph. I have no experience with one of these with more than one motor on the output side like your mill has. I don't see why it wouldn't work, but talk to a local motor shop for their thoughts. 

2. To me the best option is as has been suggested before in this thread. Get or build an RPC. You can even take the output of the RPC to a second breaker panel that is only connected to the RPC and your machines and connect other machines to that panel. You can still only run as many machines at once as your RPC can handle, but you could have as many machines as you want running one at a time(based on RPC size) and all would have proper overcurrent protection. You would still need a transformer to correct the voltage. This can be done at each machine or feeding the panel if all "future" machines are expected to be the same voltage. This is the most difficult method electrically, but gives the most flexibility.

I think there have been many good posts in the past on benefits of RPC vs VFD etc. and I won't try to suggest either way. It really is a matter of what you think your future plans are. 

I hope this helps! 
Kevin


----------



## Old Iron

I have a 10 hp RPC and it runs to 3phase breaker box then to disconnects for all the machines prolly over kill but I like it.

I can run 4 of my machines at the same time if-n I could run fast enough to keep them form doing bad things,

If I would have went the VDF route I would have needed 8 so it was cheaper to do it the way I did.

Paul


----------



## ScrapMetal

Thanks guys.  I think the VFD option is most likely "out" as I understand it you can only run one motor per VFD.   While that would take care of the two main motors (I don't think you would have an occasion to run both at once but what do I know?) but the rest of the power system may be an issue (power feeds, DRO).

Even if the motors can be re-wired for 220v 3-phase I would still be in essentially the same predicament, needing something to convert my single phase into 3 phase, or worse as I don't know how the power feeds and DRO are powered.  Now that I think about it, a lot may depend on how both the DRO and feeds are powered and if they are easily repairable.  From the description I've got on the mill the x-axis feed has gone bye-bye and there is "something" wrong with the DRO box, whatever that amounts to.



Judging from this pic, everything is powered off the side of the mill.  Do power feeds generally use something more "conventional" in the way of power?  So if there is some kind of conversion going on in this power layout wouldn't that all have to be reconfigured, if possible?

Can someone give me a little more insight as to if this is a reasonable assumption? 

I see on the web that "Sargon" is now out of business but there equipment is being supported by Linear Measuring Systems whether that will make any difference.  I see that the old DRO appears to be set up for X and Y, on a mill, is there a huge advantage to adding a Z?

Thanks,

-Ron


----------



## pdentrem

The power box on the side looks like it may have 110 out. I would not be surprised if the main motor is dual voltage as stated before and you can drive that easy with a 220 VFD with your current 220 single phase. The other motors may likely be single phase and therefore only 220 volt or 110 if that picture is actually showing a 110 plug. On our shop the machines that have smaller motors for pumps etc are powered by 1 leg of the 3 ph supply.
You will know more once it is at your door but a motor shop can help you out after that.
I have a lathe with a 220 single phase 1 1/2 hp. I talked to the motor guy in my town and he will set me up with a 220 v 3ph motor, used but with warranty, and a VFD to run it with 220 1ph power. Cost he says about 200.


----------



## ScrapMetal

That sure would simplify things a bit as well as get it up and running for a more reasonable amount.  That would be money I could put in to some tooling! :biggrin:  

I'll be keeping my fingers crossed,

Thanks,

-Ron


----------



## Starlight Tools

Ron

Here is the link to my electrical setup.  I had a similar situation, except that I needed 600V 

To get 440V 3 phase substitute the transformer to a 440V one and use the appropriate load centre to distribute the machines.  If only using for one machine you can run from the transformer directly to the machine without the load centre as long as the transformer is fused (or breaker) properly between the RPC and the transformer.

Also note that there needs to be a Timing Line Contactor, TLC between the RPC and the transformer to prevent the transformer from ever being single phased.  If you look closely at my diagram you will notice that I have my complete system going through a TLC, which saves having to wire interconnects between the mag switches and the RPC for each machine and makes sure that I never single phase a three phase motor.

http://www.hobby-machinist.com/show...seMAXX-7TZ-Soft-Start-RPC?highlight=phasemaxx

Walter


----------



## ScrapMetal

Now that I have the mill home I had a chance to look at the motors and I found that they can be wired for 230v 3-phase (they are 460v 3-phase now) so maybe that will simplify the process in that I only have to turn single phase 220v in to 3-phase 230v.  It also looks as if the power feeds and the DRO all run off the regular 110v.

Even though it has two motors I don't believe there would ever be a situation in which they should both be powered on at the same time.  Now, the only odd thing is that the vertical head is 2 HP while the horizontal is 3 HP.  If I am to go with a VFD which is only good for 2/3 the rated HP (I believe), that would mean I need a 5 HP VFD.  Does that sound right?

-Ron


----------



## Charley Davidson

I would think in your case a RPC would be your best bet, it allows you more options for future machines that may be 3 phase. If you go VFD you'll have to buy more of them for each machine.


----------



## Starlight Tools

Ron

In the past, VFD's had to be derated if you wanted to hook them to single phase input instead of the 3 phase input they were designed to run on.  Nowadays, you can get a 3 HP 1 Ph 230V input VFD that has 3 Ph 230V output and has already been derated by the manufacturer.

5 Hp VFD's are still on the spendy side, or at least good ones are.

If you can swing the RPC, would be the best option as allows all sort of expansion later.

Otherwise a 3 HP 1 Ph input VFD would run either motor, but you would have to set up a plug, switch or relay set up so that only one could run at any time and that the power would have to be off to the motor in order to switch between them.  Applying open circuit voltage from a VFD with no motor load will allow the magic smoke to escape, so the wires must go straight from the VFD output to the motor input with no switches, fuses etc between them.

Walter








ScrapMetal said:


> Now that I have the mill home I had a chance to look at the motors and I found that they can be wired for 230v 3-phase (they are 460v 3-phase now) so maybe that will simplify the process in that I only have to turn single phase 220v in to 3-phase 230v. It also looks as if the power feeds and the DRO all run off the regular 110v.
> 
> Even though it has two motors I don't believe there would ever be a situation in which they should both be powered on at the same time. Now, the only odd thing is that the vertical head is 2 HP while the horizontal is 3 HP. If I am to go with a VFD which is only good for 2/3 the rated HP (I believe), that would mean I need a 5 HP VFD. Does that sound right?
> 
> -Ron


----------



## ScrapMetal

Charley Davidson said:


> I would think in your case a RPC would be your best bet, it allows you more options for future machines that may be 3 phase. If you go VFD you'll have to buy more of them for each machine.





starlight_tools said:


> Otherwise a 3 HP 1 Ph input VFD would run either motor, but you would have to set up a plug, switch or relay set up so that only one could run at any time and that the power would have to be off to the motor in order to switch between them.  Applying open circuit voltage from a VFD with no motor load will allow the magic smoke to escape, so the wires must go straight from the VFD output to the motor input with no switches, fuses etc between them.
> 
> Walter




Okay, I can take a hint.   I'll plan on the RPC as I'd hate to have the magic smoke escape.  :lmao:  As I have had a chance to ponder what you've both said, I think you guys are especially right, as expanded upon by Walter with the switches etc.  This unit only has one plug for the two motors so all the switching between the two takes place "internally".  While doable it would just make it more complicated to try and run with a single VFD.   I'd most likely need to take the switching external so I could use one VFD for both (not an optimal solution), run two VFDs (added expense and external wiring) or just go with the RPC and keep the magic smoke safe.

I'll certainly have more questions as I get down to deciding on a particular setup.

Thanks guys,

-Ron


----------



## ScrapMetal

The mill has landed!  Now I have a question about the RPCs and which route would be better.  The way I see it, going with an RPC, I have two choices.  The first being to get an (5 HP?) RPC that will take single phase 220v and output 3-phase 460v.  The other option would be to go from single phase 220v to 3-phase 230v and rewire both motors to handle 230v.

Is there really any difference between the two options other than the hassle of rewiring the motors?  I also like to protect what I have the best that I can so where would Walter's suggestion of "a Timing Line Contactor, TLC between the RPC and the transformer" fit in to this?

Thanks,

-Ron


----------



## Starlight Tools

Ron

To the best of my knowledge, I have never seen an RPC that could increase the voltage.  IF you feed it with 220V single phase, you will get 220 V 3 phase output.

The next step is to add a 3 phase 220V to 440V step-up transformer.

Now if you look at the wiring diagram for a RPC, you will notice that the Black and Red wires go from the input breaker and continue, unbroken throughout the entire RPC.  So even if the generator motor is not turning, there is still 220V single phase being applied to two legs of the three phase motors etc.   The transformer needs to be protected from ever being energized in this way so a magnetic contactor (called in this instance as a Timing Line Contactor), large enough to handle the current load is placed between to output of the RPC and the input of the transformer and wired so that it will only energize if there is voltage present in the third leg.

Personally I prefer to size the TLC Contactor to handle the complete output of the RPC, that way, no motor on the circuit will ever see single phase as voltage will only ever pass beyond the TLC if the 3 phases are all present.

Now going the 220-440V transformer route will increase the cost of your installation by the cost of the transformer and possibly a distribution centre for the 440V.  If you are only going to ever run the one machine, then you can wire it directly into the output of the transformer, but you will need to make sure the input of the transformer is properly fused.  If you may ever get other machines that could run on 440V then look into a 3 phase load centre and breakers so that you can divide the output of the 440V to each machine.

Now as to your other option, rewiring the mill to 220V.  That may be possible, but you will have to look at a few things.  The motors have to be dual voltage and you have to rewire each motor to suit the 220V (some motors like 2 speed motors are only single voltage).  More importantly is the coils in the contactors and any control transformers and any lights.  If the coils on the magnetic contactors are 440V, they will need to be replaced with 220V coils.  Many times though, the contactors may be low voltage, say 24V (this keeps high voltages away from the push button switches that us humans will be pushing) and there will be a transformer to step the input voltage down to that voltage.  Once you have determined how many changes need to be done, you may find it easier to rewire to 220V or you may find that going plug and play, IE step-up transformer off the RPC will be better.

Walter


----------



## ScrapMetal

starlight_tools said:


> Ron
> 
> To the best of my knowledge, I have never seen an RPC that could increase the voltage.  IF you feed it with 220V single phase, you will get 220 V 3 phase output.
> 
> The next step is to add a 3 phase 220V to 440V step-up transformer.
> 
> Now if you look at the wiring diagram for a RPC, you will notice that the Black and Red wires go from the input breaker and continue, unbroken throughout the entire RPC.  So even if the generator motor is not turning, there is still 220V single phase being applied to two legs of the three phase motors etc.   The transformer needs to be protected from ever being energized in this way so a magnetic contactor (called in this instance as a Timing Line Contactor), large enough to handle the current load is placed between to output of the RPC and the input of the transformer and wired so that it will only energize if there is voltage present in the third leg.
> 
> Personally I prefer to size the TLC Contactor to handle the complete output of the RPC, that way, no motor on the circuit will ever see single phase as voltage will only ever pass beyond the TLC if the 3 phases are all present.
> 
> Now going the 220-440V transformer route will increase the cost of your installation by the cost of the transformer and possibly a distribution centre for the 440V.  If you are only going to ever run the one machine, then you can wire it directly into the output of the transformer, but you will need to make sure the input of the transformer is properly fused.  If you may ever get other machines that could run on 440V then look into a 3 phase load centre and breakers so that you can divide the output of the 440V to each machine.
> 
> Now as to your other option, rewiring the mill to 220V.  That may be possible, but you will have to look at a few things.  The motors have to be dual voltage and you have to rewire each motor to suit the 220V (some motors like 2 speed motors are only single voltage).  More importantly is the coils in the contactors and any control transformers and any lights.  If the coils on the magnetic contactors are 440V, they will need to be replaced with 220V coils.  Many times though, the contactors may be low voltage, say 24V (this keeps high voltages away from the push button switches that us humans will be pushing) and there will be a transformer to step the input voltage down to that voltage.  Once you have determined how many changes need to be done, you may find it easier to rewire to 220V or you may find that going plug and play, IE step-up transformer off the RPC will be better.
> 
> Walter



Thanks Walter.  After I posted and thought about it some, the bit about an RPC with 220 input to 440 out, I knew that I hadn't gotten that right.  With your help, I'm thinking that the step-up transformer would be the way to go but I'm really interested in the TLC.  I've been trying to read what I can on RPCs but have found little/no mention of using a TLC.  Do you have a good source for those?  I'm all about protecting my gear as best I can.

So, as a re-cap, I am wanting an RPC that will take single-phase 220v and output 3-phase 220v (or 230v as the standard may be now) then use a step-up transformer to give me the 440v (460v) 3-phase the mill wants to see.

Now, the mill has a 2hp motor and a 3hp motor but they will not be in use at the same time.  I know that the costs will increase as the hp rating does.  I would assume that due to the step transformer I would need to provide more Kva to utilize the full power of the motors so would that automatically throw me in the 6hp and up range?  Then should I also build more into the system for future use, say 10 or 15hp?

Where would you guys source your components for this?  I've seen a couple commercial sites with offerings but they aren't as comprehensive as needed to give a road map for someone with no experience.  I know some of you would build your own systems using salvaged materials, motors, etc. but there seems to be a lack of such in this area as far as I'm aware of.  In other words I may need to order/ship in anything I needed.  By the time I do that would it just make more sense to buy one commercially built?  (Hoo-boy!  There's that "sense" thing.  The wife would be so proud.  :lmao::lmao

Thanks again,

-Ron


----------



## Starlight Tools

Ron

We are a dealer for PhaseMAXX RPC's.

their website is http://www.electram.com

I have the engineer there build a system based on the clients needs and specs.

When I had mine built it was before I realized the importance of the TLC, since then I have had them built into the enclosure for the unit.

These units are CSA/UL rated for use anywhere in Canada or the US and are made in Edmonton, Alberta.

The generator is not just a 3 phase motor with its shaft chopped off, they are specially designed with a high flux core to give better performance as a RPC.  

There are a few add-on features that are nice to get, 

first they have a soft start unit that starts in steps and avoids browning out the neighbourhood.

second, VLS, Voltage Level System, a voltage regulator, this is for when you will be running both smaller and larger motors off the same system.

thirdly the TLC which protects motors and transformers from being single phased.

I will email you a PM of other details

Walter


----------



## ScrapMetal

Thanks Walter, I'll go over it in detail.  I expect it will be a great help.

-Ron


----------



## Hawkeye

Ron, now that you have the mill on site, have you looked at the labels on the two motors? I'm itching to get my mill home so I can check whether I can reconnect the motor for 220V. Since the junction box and label are deep inside the column, I'll have to take the motor out to find out if I can use it. Here's hoping.:bitingnails:


----------



## ScrapMetal

Yes, I did find out about the motors.  According to their tags both of them can be wired for 220v (3-phase) so that may take some of the complexity out of the solution.  I guess it also gives me another question about the motors, is there anything else that needs to be changed other than the wiring?  Is it just that simple to follow the diagram on the motor and it's ready to plug in to a 220v 3-phase source?  If it is I can fore go a transformer to kick the voltage up to 440v and save some money to spend on more tooling. :biggrin:

I'll take a pic of the motor plate tomorrow for better reference.

Thanks,

-Ron


----------



## Starlight Tools

starlight_tools said:


> Ron
> 
> Now as to your other option, rewiring the mill to 220V. That may be possible, but you will have to look at a few things. The motors have to be dual voltage and you have to rewire each motor to suit the 220V (some motors like 2 speed motors are only single voltage). More importantly is the coils in the contactors and any control transformers and any lights. If the coils on the magnetic contactors are 440V, they will need to be replaced with 220V coils. Many times though, the contactors may be low voltage, say 24V (this keeps high voltages away from the push button switches that us humans will be pushing) and there will be a transformer to step the input voltage down to that voltage. Once you have determined how many changes need to be done, you may find it easier to rewire to 220V or you may find that going plug and play, IE step-up transformer off the RPC will be better.
> 
> Walter



Ron we already discussed what else might need to be changed when changing from 440V to 200V!

The other item to look at is the wire sizing.  Motors draw a certain amount of watts to run.  Watts is Voltage times current.  Wires are sized to carry a certain amount of current at the specified voltage.  If we half the voltage, we will double the current for the same number of watts.  This means that the wires must be heavy enough to handle the extra current.  Now in most cases, the manufacturer will use wiring that is ok for both when wiring up the machine, but that is not to say that the wiring from the machine to the wall, or plug is heavy enough.  Basicly, 14 gauge wire is good for up to 15 Amps, 12 Gauge up to 20 Amps 10 Guage up to 30 Amps and 8 Guage up to 40 Amps.

Now at 3 HP you would be hard pressed to get anywhere near 15 Amps in motor draw even at 220V so you will probably be OK.

It is the contactor coils and transformers that you need to check the most.

Walter


----------



## ScrapMetal

Thanks Walter, I did read that through and understood it so I don't mean to come across as ignoring your input,  I have found it very valuable.  Sometimes my phrasing leaves a bit to be desired though. (Believe it or not I actually went to college as an electronics engineer but that's been 30 years ago and I never paid much attention to power systems like this or motor design.)   The reason I didn't bring up the wiring is that that is easily checked, a pain to change, but easy to verify.  As my panel was wired to code and there is nothing smaller than a 15a breaker I figure I should be okay but I will check.  I also have confirmation that my motors can be re-wired for 220v +- and there are no lights to worry about.  Here are pics of the two motor plates...


The power feeds and DRO (which I may be replacing anyway as it's fubar) appear to run off of single-phase 110v so wouldn't be an issue either.  By your description that would leave, "coils in the contactors" as a possible issue.  I would think that there would be a warning of some kind along with the alternate wiring diagram if that were the case but that may be assuming too much.    So far my searching hasn't pulled up much technical information on these motors and one of the reasons I'm looking for additional input.  I like to keep things as simple as possible as well as keep the expenditures down to a minimum. (Again, my wife would be so proud! :biggrin

If the contactor coils are an issue how does one go about determining that?  Sans that information it would appear that I can get away with an RPC and a TLC (as I understand it anyway).

Thanks,

-Ron


----------



## Starlight Tools

Ron

The contactor coils are the coils which apply magnetism and "close" the magnetic switches  (think very big relay).  For any motor rated higher than about 1-1/2 HP they have to (should) be run on a magnetic switch.  These switches will be located in an electrical control panel, probably the one that is mounted on the side of the base column.  The on - off switches will energize the coils which will pull in the main contacts, and will keep them energized until either the stop switch is pushed, an over current is detected or power goes out from the machine.  This will demagnetize the coil and allow the contacts to seperate, stopping the motor.

You will need to check out these coil voltages before you go any further.  Check the over current protectors as well, they are to be set for the rated current of the motor and they will have to be set to twice what they are now, if they are set correctly now that is.  Also, look far any signs of transformers in there.  It could be that you have a transformer that has multiple input taps, 208/230/460 and one or more output taps.  If the mill has only one power cord to attach to the wall, then probable that there is a transformer to feed the power feeds and the DRO.  If the DRO was an add-On, it may have it's own separate power cord and plug.

It is possible that even the contactor coils are 110V and that it is all being fed off a transformer.  They could also be 24 V.

Ron, hopefully I am not being to persnikety, but I do not want you or anyone else to get hurt by assuming me that you know better.  SO, I tend to be more cautious when giving advise over the net like this, and try to think of where all the snakes could be hidden.

Walter


----------



## ScrapMetal

{A few missing posts...}

Thanks again Walter your input is appreciated very much.  I continue to ask questions to get different views and to make sure I understand what I'm doing (tough one there ) so that both my equipment and I are safe.

I was able to take a couple of pictures that may help show just what I have to work with:



A) Four-pronged (3-phase) plug
B) Cord attached to "A" going in to fuse box
C) to horizontal motor
D) to vertical motor
E) "to" and "from" switch between two motors




Contents of fuse box



A) 3-prong (single-phase 220v(?) plug)
B) cord from "A" into first out let box w/ 110v type sockets
C) cord from first outlet box to second outlet box

As you can see the power is delivered from two different sources to two separate systems.  The outlet boxes are completely independent of the power for the mill's motors.
For the mill's motors, there isn't much there.  Just a 3-phase fuse box.

Have I missed anything?

Thanks,

-Ron


----------



## Starlight Tools

Ron

Where are the forward / reverse controls and the switches to start / stop the motors etc?

Wich I was closer, could have this sorted out lickety split for you.

Walter


----------



## Hawkeye

Ron,

Check the labeling on the smaller twist-lock plug. I'm thinking it says "125V 15A." If so, you could either instal a matching twist-lock receptacle or replace the cord end with a standard, non-twist like you have on nearly everything in your house. As Walter pointed out, it's likely an add-on to power accessories like the DROs or plug-in tools.

Walter,

An added advantage to covering all the bases in your replies is that someone who reads this a year from now will have all of the info. Ron may have the complete picture in half the words, but the next guy may need all of them to stay out of trouble.


----------



## ScrapMetal

starlight_tools said:


> Ron
> 
> Where are the forward / reverse controls and the switches to start / stop the motors etc?
> 
> Wich I was closer, could have this sorted out lickety split for you.
> 
> Walter



If you were closer you'd most likely get very frustrated with me.  Just ask my wife. :biggrin:


The forward/reverse switches for the motors are mounted on the motors themselves.  They are just simple mechanical switches. (Back motor same as front.)  The large switch housing down on the front/side of knee is the switch that directs power to either the vertical or horizontal motor.  You can see the two cords going into it on the bottom.  Those are the two cords marked as "E" on the first photo in the previous pic post.



Hawkeye said:


> Ron,
> 
> Check the labeling on the smaller twist-lock plug. I'm thinking it says "125V 15A." If so, you could either instal a matching twist-lock receptacle or replace the cord end with a standard, non-twist like you have on nearly everything in your house. As Walter pointed out, it's likely an add-on to power accessories like the DROs or plug-in tools.
> 
> Walter,
> 
> An added advantage to covering all the bases in your replies is that someone who reads this a year from now will have all of the info. Ron may have the complete picture in half the words, but the next guy may need all of them to stay out of trouble.



You're right, and I will check that better tomorrow when I remember to bring my keys with me.  :banghead:   I just assumed it to be 220v as that's the kind of plug I use for my welders and my computer systems here at the office.

Thanks guys,

-Ron


----------



## Starlight Tools

Ron

Looks to me to be just staight mechanical drum switches, so I would ass/u/me that you could rewire to 220V 3 phase and not worry about anything else.

Using a continuity tester, switch the power switch to "forward" and lower switch to "top motor" and test for continuity between the three hots of the plug.  You should have continuity through all four switch combinations to all three "hot" blades of the plug.  Resistance reading should be slightly different between the top motor and the rear motor, but not by much.  If so, this will mean that you do not have any magnetic switches in the machine.

You should also have coninuuity between the ground blade of the plug and the frame of the mill in all combinations.

Walter


----------



## ScrapMetal

Thanks Walter.  I think we are on the same page there (especially with the ass/u/me part. :biggrin.  I'll dig out my Fluke when I get the chance and check things out but it certainly appears that all the switches are purely mechanical.

That being the case (if), I can simply re-wire them for 220v 3-phase.  I will then just need to have an RPC with 220v single "in" and 220v 3-phase "out".  If I understand things correctly (and that's always up in the air) I would also like to have a TLC between the RPC and the mill.  I looked at the link you sent to me earlier but didn't see (may have just missed it) any references to a TLC, at least not by that acronym.  I don't like to impose but could you please point me in the proper direction for that?  While I'm at it, are the TLCs rated for current, voltage, power consumption, or output HP or just a passive monitor that throws a breaker?

Thank you,

-Ron


----------



## Starlight Tools

The TLC, Timing Line Contactor, is just a large magnetic contactor, with a coil voltage that matches the output voltage of the unit, so in this case it would 220V.

The three wires from the output of the RPC are connected to the input of the contactor and then the three wires from the output continue on to your Load centre, or fuse block then onto the machine.

The control circuit for the TLC is a bit more complicated, there is a timer and relay circuit that is wired into the RPC so that once the unit is operational it will automatically start.  The PhaseMAXX units I supply have this wired in from the factory.  One would have to inquire with the factory as to what would be entailed to add this feature to an existing unit. 

Another method to consider would be just using a stock Magnetic switches.  One switch needs to be between the main circuit breaker and the RPC, unless the RPC has this feature built in.  Doing this will remove power from the RPC should the power go out which will prevent the unit from auto-repowering when the power comes back on.  The PhaseMAXX units have this feature built in, but "homemade" units often do not and if the power is applied to an RPC that needs a secondary means of starting the generator motor, the generator will be damaged if power is applied to lines 1 and 2 but the generator is not rotating. 

 A second Magnetic switch would be used on the output of the RPC and you would manually switch it on once the RPC is operating.  

Ron, in your case, the big question is, will you or do you want to get an RPC that will allow you to operate more than one machine?  If you will only ever power up this one mill with the RPC then it can be simplified.  BUT and this is a big BUT, if you figure you may possibly add more 3 phase machines down the road then look more towards getting a larger RPC that has capacity to handle the future anticipated load.

RPC's are like air compressors, buy a small one to handle the immeadiate need and realize quickly how useful they are, then get more tools that need even more air.

Walter


----------



## ScrapMetal

Okay, I think I've got a handle on the TLC thing thanks to you Walter. (I have now forgotten my street address and age.  Hey, there are only so many brain cells left! )

The size of an RPC was going to be the next question so I am very glad you brought it up.  There is always the possibility that I find other 3-phase powered equipment I may want to add, as a group we never seem to quit looking.  :biggrin:  That being the case one has to decide just how much HP one should get.  While I figure this is only limited by one's budget, I believe I've seen listings for RPCs that state there is a "minimum" HP that can be run on the units.  What do you know/have to say in this regard?  Are some that way and others (better designed I would assume) not?

Thanks once again,

-Ron


----------



## Starlight Tools

Ron

If you use too large an RPC it will just consume too much power.  Remember that your max breaker size in your panel will ultimately limit the total HP you can operate.

I put in the 7-1/2 HP by 22 HP unit.  The largest motor this will handle is 7-1/2 HP in a class 1 Non-CNC application, and you can run multiple motors up to a total of 22 HP.  The largest Class 2 motor is 5 HP and Class 3 is 3 Hp.  If going CNC it will handle a 3 HP largest motor and a total of 3-3/4 HP max load

Now let's talk class ratings.

The heavier loaded the motor is at starting is its class.  A compressor running in the freezing cold is somewhere between a Class 2 and a class 3, I know as my 5 HP 3 Phase compressor, starts fine in the summer, but in -15 Deg C weather it gets really hard to start. 

A motor starting with no load on it is Class 1

Then we throw CNC into the mix and that further reduces the capacity of a RPC.

My preference for a small home shop system, whether for wood working or metal working is the 7-1/2/22 or the 10/30

This gives room to grow into.

a 3/9 like I sent you the PM quote for limits you to smaller machines, not that 3 Hp is all that small.

Now as you get larger capacity of machines, if you run a really small motor on them, they are not that sensitive so can fluctuate the voltages a bit too much for the little motor.  In that case we add a VLS (Voltage Level Sensor) or Voltage Regulator, this way small motors do not get harmed by the larger system.  without the VLS, yes they have a lower limit.  But say you have a lathe like mine which is 3 HP drive motor and 1/8 HP coolant pump motor, that VLS is now very important to the coolant pump motor.

Also any system 7-1/2 Hp or larger should have the soft start feature which helps to prevent browning out the neighbourhood when you start up the RPC.

So to sum up, 3/9 would be the minimum system requirement for you today, but no room to grow into larger toys.

3/9 minimum, 5/15 OK, 7-1/2/22 better or even better 10/30 would be my recommendations.  If you plan to CNC your machine then these recommendations need further review.

As I said, I got the 7TZ, 7-1/2 / 22, but I have wished that I had gone with the 10 TZ - 10/30 as there are times when I have found the other a bit small, such as mid winter starting the 5 Hp compressor which I got for "cheap" as the seller was having a hard time finding a buyer.  3 phase is not very popular in this area and even commercial shops avoid it because hydro charges big bucks to install it.

If you go 5 or larger add the VLS
If you go 7-1/2 or larger add the Soft Start

On all af them have the TLC factory installed.

There are a number of brands of RPC's out there, I have found that the PhaseMAXX has been the best quality and has the best availability of add-ons like VLS, Soft Start and TLC, so that is the brand I have been using and selling to my clients.

Avoid static converters like the plague!

See here for more info on the systems we supply

http://www.electram.com/Advertising/brochure2010.pdf

Walter


----------



## ScrapMetal

Great information Walter!  It gives me quite a bit to think about as well.  You mention the "brown out" and "different for CNC" which brings up another concern I hadn't given much consideration to and that is, "Just how "dirty" is this kind of power supply?".  The transformer I get my "shop" power from also supplies my office building where my tenants and I all have a lot of high-speed communications equipment and computers.  Would I need to take extra precautions to keep from hearing cries of anguish every time I fire things up to mill down a hex nut?

You've been very gracious with the information so far, I feel a bit embarrassed that I keep asking for more.

Many thanks,

-Ron


----------



## Starlight Tools

Ron

A properly made and constructed RPC will give excellent results with little or no effects that you or the hydro company supplying you the power will notice.  I would be more concerned about Hi Freq TIG Welding of Aluminium than I would of the RPC.

Small RPC's start with very little load on the system, but larger ones can.  It is like starting a large motor.  That is where the Soft Start Module comes in.  A large RPC can start with a lot lower in rush current.  With the Soft Start you can use a breaker about 2/3 to 1/2 the size as with out, but bear in mind that your total max HP rating of the RPC will be limited if you use too small a breaker.

If you have a large motor operating on a RPC, and start another one, you will notice a slight blip in the output of the RPC.  CNC units need the VLS and need less possiblity of any form of spiking from "other" motors starting up so they are limited to total HP.

Like you I have an office full of sensitive electronics and I never see anything that would concern me.

Walter


----------



## ScrapMetal

Thanks for clearing that up Walter.  Now it's time for me to do a little "soul searching" and decide what direction I may take this over the next couple of years (to CNC or to not CNC...) :biggrin:.  At least, with all the help you've given, I now feel that I can make a better decision as to what equipment I will need to purchase whatever I feel my machining future will bring.  I need to make it quick though, I really, really want to fire up the mill. 

BIG "Thanks!"

-Ron


----------



## ScrapMetal

Thought I'd provide a bit of an update.  Well, I haven't done anything yet.    Just funnin' ya! :biggrin:  Actually what I've done is a little more "research" into my personal situation.  You see, my "shop" is in a row of parking garages that I originally built with the intent of leasing the spaces out to tenants of my office building.  There never was a whole lot of interest so that was kind of a bust.  I did rent out one space to a cell phone company for some of their communcations equipment.  That is why there is a 220v line and an HVAC system in one of the stalls.  The cell company was bought out or went belly up and I was left with a stall that I couldn't put a car in but was good enough to set up shop.

Now, this garage/shop is roughly 80' from my office building on the other side of the parking lot.  I had maybe a "flash of brilliance" (okay, okay, more like a blip on the radar ) and so took a much closer look at the equipment I have set up in my building.  I have 28 heat pumps, 3 circulating pumps, and a couple of units on the roof and it turns out that all the units are 208v 3-phase!  I pulled up the site plan and electrical detail blueprints to see just how the 220v single phase was routed to my "shop".  Turns out (at least on spec) that there should be a 1.5" pvc pipe from my office building out to my "shop".

So, in theory (and if it's within code) I'm thinking that all I should have to do is pull a 4-conductor wire from my equipment room in the office building through the pvc pipe/under the parking lot and to my little "shop"!   The big question would be whether I can pull the 4-conductor through and at the same time leave the 220v single-phase line, or would that even matter?  Could I just pull the 3-phase into my panel and run both the 220v and 110v single phases out of it?

What do you guys think?

Thanks,

-Ron


----------



## Starlight Tools

Ron

Now it all depends on which Load Centre Panel the run to the garage is taken from.

It is common practice in industrial complexes to run a 3 phase line to the building then take two lines from that to supply 208 Single phase and from one line to common to get 110 single phase.  If this is your case then you may be able to just add or replace a breaker and replace the existing wiring, or pull the extra lines, to get 208 3 phase in your garage.  Personally, I would pull heavy enough wires and put as large a 3 phase sub panel in the garage as I could, and from there use a combination of breakers to power the shop.

If however you have a seperate 1 and 3 phase supply and the existing conduit is coming from a 1 phase load centre, then adding a second run from a seperate load centre is not allowed.

I know it does not show up on my electrical diagram, but there are 2 single pole breakers in the 220V 3 phase panel, one for the refrigerated air cooler and another for the automatic tank drain for the air compressor, these two items only ever need to operate if the compressor is running anyways.

Walter


----------



## ScrapMetal

Walter,

Armed with what you said, I checked the load center the garage is fed from and sure enough there are some 3-phase breakers in there.  Oddly enough there is also a 3-phase breaker marked "garage" but the the work "garage" has been crossed out and (after pulling the panel to look) it is not hooked up to anything. :thinking:  Must be "destiny"! :biggrin:

Hmmm, now I've got to find a decent electrician to call... (Hate to call others to do work for me but this may be "one of those times". ).

Another question for you now, we discussed the TLCs and how they are integral to the systems you showed me.  I'm still very much enamored with the idea (not quite obsessed though it may seem so ) even if I were to go the direct wiring route.  Is there a "free standing" device/monitor that will cut all three legs of the power if one of the phases drops out to protect the equipment or is that just plain over-kill?

Thanks very much,

-Ron


----------



## Hawkeye

Ron, have you measured the "220" in the garage? It sounds like you'll actually read 208V from bus to bus. A wye (aka star) transformer configuration for your service is actually 120/208 volts, with a neutral connection (grounded) where the three phase legs come together.

The next question concerns how many buses the panel in the garage has. They might have used a single phase panel (2 buses) connected to two of the three legs and the neutral. If there are three buses, check for voltage. You may already have 3-phase out there.


----------



## ScrapMetal

I'll measure the drop in the garage tomorrow and do a more thorough look-see at what I've got going on there.

Thanks much Hawkeye,

-Ron


----------



## ScrapMetal

I didn't have a lot of time to "play" today but I did drag out my DMM and poked some leads into the "220v" socket in my "shop".  Each leg to the third slot (ground most likely) gave me a reading of 120v AC.  Now, when I measured across the two hot legs they cancelled each other out so my reading was around 0v +-.  I'm not real sure if that piece of info is any help but it still could be pulling from a couple of legs of a 3-phase.  I'd need to pull the panel to see what kind of wire was sitting there, that'll be on tap for tomorrow.  -Ron


----------



## Starlight Tools

Ron

There is no way that they will cancell each other out unless they are both from the same line.

If wired correctly the wide slot is neutral and the short slot is hot.

Hot to neutral on the same outlet is 120V.

Hot to Hot on two seperate outlets will be 0 Volts if they are both from the same supply (both blacks or both reds) and 220 V if they are from two seperate supplies, ie black and red wires.  If it reads 208 V then it is taken from the two legs of a three phase circuit.

Walter


----------



## ScrapMetal

I agree Walter.  Something doesn't seem quite right there.  I just finished putting a new (rebuilt) power feed on the mill so I haven't had time to explore the power situation further.  Wife is at church tonight so I will have some extra time after the office closes to take a look at things again (in theory anyway )

This is a good example of why you shouldn't just "plug something in" without knowing exactly what you have.

Thanks,

-Ron


----------



## ScrapMetal

Okay, had a few minutes so I grabbed my trusty screw driver and went down to the equipment room.  I figured it would be best to see what is going to the garage/shop from this end.

First a couple "glamor shots" of part of my equipment room...


Main breaker panel, see the 1.5" pvc pipe out of the bottom of the left panel?  That's the one that goes out to the garage/shop.


Shot of the "switchboard"


A couple of 3-phase motors running the pumps for the cooling tower on the roof.


Now, here is where the magic begins...


I circled where there are four wires feeding into the 1.5" pvc pipe.  As you can see the plain "black" (B) wire and the "red" (R) wrapped on go to a 100a double breaker (207.5Vac across breaker).  The third large "white" (W) wrapped wire goes to ground as the smaller green (G) wire goes to "earth" ground (if that's not the proper term, correct me.  I was an "electronics eng." major not an "electrical eng." - didn't deal with power systems much).

That's what I have to start with,

-Ron


----------



## Starlight Tools

White wrapped wire goes to neutral, not to ground or earth which are the same thing and where the green wire is going.

So based on this you need to pull one more large black wire of the same guage as the others through the conduit and tape it blue at both ends.

Now, is the unused three pole breaker that was tagged as "garage" 100 amp as well?  If so run all three wires to that one, otherwise replace it with a 100 Amp breaker and use that.

So that gets you 3 phase to the garage.

Next step is to determine if the panel in the garage is a three phase panel or just a single phase panel.  If three phase, add the new blue wire and you are set, otherwise, you will need to replace the panel.

Basicly Ron, you have been stewing over something you already had.

Walter


----------



## Hawkeye

Ron,

Shoot us a picture or two of the shop panel. That will tell us the most. It's possible someone used a 3-phase panel and fed two buses with the same leg, just to power it up. Then a 2-pole breaker connected to those two buses would give the results you measured. That would actually be good news. Like Walter said, you would then just have to add one more wire for the blue phase.

If you're pulling a new wire in with existing ones, make up a plastic 'bullet' with a slot in the tail end to tape onto the fishtape before pushing it through. It's way too easy for the end of the tape to weave back and forth between the other wires, making it tough to pull in the new one. The bullet will take the easiest path, hopefully avoiding small gaps between the wires.

Worst-case scenario - pull out the wires and pull them in again with the new one added.


----------



## ScrapMetal

starlight_tools said:


> White wrapped wire goes to neutral, not to ground or earth which are the same thing and where the green wire is going.
> 
> So based on this you need to pull one more large black wire of the same guage as the others through the conduit and tape it blue at both ends.
> 
> Now, is the unused three pole breaker that was tagged as "garage" 100 amp as well?  If so run all three wires to that one, otherwise replace it with a 100 Amp breaker and use that.
> 
> So that gets you 3 phase to the garage.
> 
> Next step is to determine if the panel in the garage is a three phase panel or just a single phase panel.  If three phase, add the new blue wire and you are set, otherwise, you will need to replace the panel.
> 
> Basicly Ron, you have been stewing over something you already had.
> 
> Walter



Oddly enough the 3-phase breaker that was tagged "garage" was only a 40a.  No idea what someone had in mind when they did that, maybe just marked it wrong.



> Basicly Ron, you have been stewing over something you already had.



You can say that again!  hew: :biggrin:




Hawkeye said:


> Ron,
> 
> Shoot us a picture or two of the shop panel. That will tell us the most. It's possible someone used a 3-phase panel and fed two buses with the same leg, just to power it up. Then a 2-pole breaker connected to those two buses would give the results you measured. That would actually be good news. Like Walter said, you would then just have to add one more wire for the blue phase.
> 
> If you're pulling a new wire in with existing ones, make up a plastic 'bullet' with a slot in the tail end to tape onto the fishtape before pushing it through. It's way too easy for the end of the tape to weave back and forth between the other wires, making it tough to pull in the new one. The bullet will take the easiest path, hopefully avoiding small gaps between the wires.
> 
> Worst-case scenario - pull out the wires and pull them in again with the new one added.



I'll pull the "shop" panel tomorrow and see what's going on out there.  That one is a bit of a p.i.t.a.  Since we are discussing "fish tapes", are there any preferences?  Steel or fiberglass?  Greenlee or Ideal?  I'd have to look at the plans again but the total distance I have to go is about 120' or so.

Thanks guys, you've been a great help.  If nothing else I provide entertainment for the masses! :biggrin:

-Ron


----------



## Hawkeye

For long conduits, we always use steel fishtapes. Maybe because glass tapes cost more. I have both Greenlee and Ideal. Make sure the breaker is off when you are working with the conduit. Dry cardboard can be used for extra protection in the supply panel. Steel fishtapes can get really dramatic when they stray.


----------



## Tony Wells

Glass/Nylon tapes are typically more expensive, but they do offer a little insulation when pulling in already filled conduits. Also, they seem to me to be a little slicker. I have both, but the Nylon seems to see more use on short pulls. If you think it's possible to need another pull in the conduit, leave a pull string behind. Easier than pushing a fish tape, and less likely to damage in place wires. 

+1 on breaker off.....that 'lectricity stuff can kill ya. We don't have enough members to spare one.


----------



## ScrapMetal

If I had my druthers I'd kill the whole panel and not just the one breaker.  That's not going to happen though, folks in the office get kind of "testy" when the lights/air conditioning and computers go down. 

I've got "pull strings" in all my conduit between floors in the building, makes it so much easier for installing communications lines when I have a new tenant.  I don't think anyone considered the possibility of some nut case trying pull an extra 4 gauge (guessing here, haven't sized it yet) wire out to the garage.  This should be an "interesting" little operation.   Maybe I should sell tickets... :biggrin:

I'm betting that the panel in the "shop"/garage is single phase so I'll see if I can price out a new box when I'm picking up the "fish tape".

Thanks guys, I'll keep your advice in mind when I go and get stuff/start doing the work.

I'll certainly post my results, at least the lesser embarrassing stuff. :biggrin:

-Ron


----------



## Starlight Tools

Ron

42 beat me too it!

I always pull an extra string into my conduits, that way I have a way to pull another line if necessary, And if that string ever gets used, then another is pulled through at the same time.

+1 on killing the panel, just do it after hours when the offices are shut down.

Walter


----------



## Hawkeye

It will be easy enough to tell if you already have a 3-phase panel. It will have 3 main lugs toward the centre of the panel, plus the neutral and ground connections, similar to your supply panel. A single-phase panel will have only two main lugs. A jumper between two of three lugs is a feeble attempt to use a 3-phase panel, but in this case, it would be good news for you - no new panel to buy.

Another thing to check is whether the conductors to the shop panel are copper or aluminum. Aluminum will be a size bigger than copper ones for the same current and will need special consideration when connecting.


----------



## ScrapMetal

Time for an update so you guys don't start thinking I electrocuted myself.  :biggrin:  The last couple of days have been a little "off" in that my "spare" time was taken up by other happenings (bought wife a new truck, drove up to get son from Boy Scout camp, etc.)

I picked up an "Ideal" 250' metal "fish tape" at the local Lowe's along with some Yellow grease ("pulling" lubricant) and some blue electrical tape.  The only reason I went with the metal tape is that was the only thing they had long enough.   I would have had to wait until Monday to go to a real electrician's supply but want to get this done over the weekend.

I get both panels pulled (the "shop" panel is single phase btw, need to get a new one) and lube up the nose of the tape.  The whole operation starts pretty good and I made real good time with the tape.  It's surprising just how well it does work if used properly.

When I get to about the 160' mark, the tape will go no further.  I head out to the "shop"/garage to see what is going on and find that the tape has yet to appear.  I am pretty sure that it is stuck on the 90 degree elbow under the concrete and there is some funky tubing connection and curves going on at floor level so that would be no surprise.  After I used up all my choice words I called it a day and left things as just described.  Tomorrow I'll be making some kind of "hook" thing so I can try and fish the end of the "fish tape" out from the "shop" end.

I'll let you know tomorrow how things go.  I need to pick up some 180' of #3 awg wire (now that I know the full distance, cripes that stuff is expensive).  Hopefully I will actually get to try and pull some wire through.

-Ron


----------



## Charley Davidson

Man you are one lucky dog, all this time your worried about what 3 phase gadget to use and it's right there already.

Try a strong magnet (rare earth type) tied to a string to get that fish tape out. Might work.  Good luck


----------



## Hawkeye

You are probably right about the tape hitting the connection at the 90. I should have mentioned that that is one of the things the "bullet" I mentioned is good at preventing. I use 1/2" diameter bullets, turned from plastic.

I haven't found a magnet strong enough yet that would pull a fishtape out of a conduit. The hook is a common method when the tape is that close to the end.

When you're ready to attach the wire to the tape, strip about 4 to 6" of insulation, then clip 3 of the 7 strands off at the insulation. Bend the remaining strands over to almost meet the insulation, but bend two to go through the eye of the tape one way and the other two to go the opposite way. Tape it up tightly in three layers running up over the eye. Flag the end so you can find it when you want to unwind it.

The lube will help, but you also need someone to feed the wire in while you are pulling the tape.


----------



## ScrapMetal

Charley Davidson said:


> Man you are one lucky dog, all this time your worried about what 3 phase gadget to use and it's right there already.
> 
> Try a strong magnet (rare earth type) tied to a string to get that fish tape out. Might work.  Good luck



The really ironic part of it is that as I add up the costs of what I'm doing it would still have been cheaper to go with a couple of VFDs and by the time I'm all done I may have as much into it as I would have with an RPC setup. :headscratch:  By far though, it will be the simplest, most flexible, and most reliable system.  Gotta give it a lot of points for that!

Interesting idea Charlie.  If the fish tape were a little less rigid and the section of pipe wasn't so goofy it would be worth a try.  I still may use the idea partially to help whatever I use to fish for it with "find" the metal tape.  That'll give me something to think about tonight.

Thanks



Hawkeye said:


> You are probably right about the tape hitting the connection at the 90. I should have mentioned that that is one of the things the "bullet" I mentioned is good at preventing. I use 1/2" diameter bullets, turned from plastic.
> 
> I haven't found a magnet strong enough yet that would pull a fishtape out of a conduit. The hook is a common method when the tape is that close to the end.
> 
> When you're ready to attach the wire to the tape, strip about 4 to 6" of insulation, then clip 3 of the 7 strands off at the insulation. Bend the remaining strands over to almost meet the insulation, but bend two to go through the eye of the tape one way and the other two to go the opposite way. Tape it up tightly in three layers running up over the eye. Flag the end so you can find it when you want to unwind it.
> 
> The lube will help, but you also need someone to feed the wire in while you are pulling the tape.



That sounds good.  I was also planning on using something to make the end of the wire/fish tape junction more of a "cone" shape in an effort to keep it from dragging on the insulation of the other wires.  I'm going to have to either get "creative" or do a LOT of running back and forth, as I've mentioned before, this is a one man show.

I think that before I go to bed tonight I'll look up some new "choice words" to use just in case I run out of them early. :biggrin:

Worst case scenario is that I end up pulling the fish tape and start over from the "shop" end.  If I'm forced to do that I'll also have to take some extra precautions as then I'd be pushing the tape towards a live panel.  Not something I'd recommend anyone do!  Don't try this at home kids!

-Ron


----------



## Charley Davidson

ScrapMetal said:


> I think that before I go to bed tonight I'll look up some new "choice words" to use just in case I run out of them early. :biggrin:


I can help you with that, I can string enough words together as long as a freight train



ScrapMetal said:


> Worst case scenario is that I end up pulling the fish tape and start over from the "shop" end.  If I'm forced to do that I'll also have to take some extra precautions as then I'd be pushing the tape towards a live panel.  Not something I'd recommend anyone do!  Don't try this at home kids!
> 
> -Ron


  At least you'll know when your through:biggrin::lmao::bitingnails:


----------



## Starlight Tools

If the tape will not go in one way, then try reversing it and going the other way.  You know that the last 160 feet went well from the supply side, so if you can get past the first 20ish feet from the garage, you should be clear pushing.  Just be real careful if you are working with  "hot box" and start poking around in the dark from 180 feet away.

Another trick that is used is blowing in a string line, small balloon type end, some light thread and compressed air, not sure how well it works, but have heard it being done.

Walter


----------



## Tony Wells

I've blown a few strings through conduit, and it does work. I'd rather use a shop vac to suck it through when I can though. One key difference: compressed air will also blow the string itself even if the wadding on the end stops. Once I blew about 500 feet of sting into a conduit not realizing it, and that it had stopped. Was a mess to salvage. I use a wire rat (or rabbit some places) to vac through. Of course, this won't work on conduit with wire already there, so this is for reference sake only. In a pinch, I have used a plastic bad such as a sandwich bag or parts bag instead of a rat. I just did a job last month (volunteer work) that we used a foam rat on ~350 feet of 4" conduit with 4 90° bends. That's max allowed for a single pull on power I believe. This was CAT 5E and RG-59 coax. We pulled only 2 wires at a time, and limited the pull force to about 25# to minimize possibility of damage. 

Walter has an excellent point. Try from the other end, since it was clear pushing up to near the end. Just another caution about hot boxes....extra care, please.


----------



## Charley Davidson

Borrow some kids pet Ferret stick the fish tape up his butt a few inches and put a treat at the other end , mission accomplished :biggrin::lmao:


----------



## ScrapMetal

Well, it was doomed from the start.  Maybe not "doomed" doom but I still got off to a poor start today.  FWIW - The Lowe's I usually hit is right between my house and office so I rely on it quite a bit.  Now, on my way into the "shop"/office today I stopped by Lowes to pick up a much shorter fish tape for the fishing expedition and also planned on picking up the wire I would need.  This is where my supply of choice words started to run thin as Lowes does not stock #3 awg wire!  They stock 1, 2, 4, 6, 8, etc. but no #3.  Yes, I could have grabbed some #2 but I find it silly to pay another 20% on wire I don't really need.  My electronics background also kicks in at this point with, "Do I really want one leg with a much different impedance?"   Might get by with it but it certainly wouldn't help.  So, no wire. :banghead:

Okay, I'll try and finish getting the tape through for the pull, at least I'll accomplish a bit of it today.  (Remember, I'm already low on choice words )  After a couple of hours of not even an inkling of success while trying every trick I can think of I decide it's time to go to "worst case scenario".  I pull all the fish tape back out and swap ends.  I place some non-conductive material in the live box that I'm now pushing towards so that it will deflect the end of the fish tape away from the breakers should it come through.  Lube up the fish tape and start the process over out in the now non-air conditioned "shop" (Have I mentioned that I really, really, like air conditioning? ).  The feed is going just fine and I figure I should be home free as the tape sailed past whatever had been blocking it from the first direction.  I'm getting close to the 160' mark again and sure enough, at 160', I hit a dead stop.

I'm down to the last couple of choice words so now I just repeat them over and over using a slightly different inflection each time. 

This makes no sense at all.  Back to trying to fish out the fish tape, now from the "live" end.  Completely out of those choice words I'm just left with the growing feeling that I just "want to kill something" and I'm getting tired.  Turns out I was also getting a bit careless.  I was so focused on trying to manipulate the end of the small fish tape that I lost track of where the rest of it was flopping around.  Of course it found a spot on the panel that was NOT connected to ground and all of a sudden roughly 6" of spring steel fish tape was bright red and kind of droopy.  There was a nice little arc to bring it to my attention as well.  I had just discovered a way to instantly anneal a section of fish tape.  Again kids, don't try this at home!  I might add that I was wearing gloves and standing on a rubber mat and very careful that I myself was not connected to ground.

Decided to give it a rest for the day and sleep on it a bit tonight. :thinking:

Now, let's see.  I think the kid next door might have a ferret...

-Ron :biggrin:


----------



## Tony Wells

One good argument for not working by yourself on electrical, especially. Glad you're OK. Maybe a glass/nylon tape next time?


----------



## Starlight Tools

Ron

Glad you are OK.

Do the hob on a day when the offices are closed, and turn off the power!

Much safer for everybody concerned.

Worst case scenerio, pull out one, or all wires, and attach a length of rope to them, then pull back in the right number of wires along with a spare length of string "just in case" I have even used plastic coated clothes line wire to pull wires with. 

I would consider trying the vacuum cleaner small bag and twine next

Walter


----------



## Charley Davidson

Be sure to shave and grease the ferret:biggrin:


----------



## ScrapMetal

Thanks Nelson, just a bit of impromptu "welding". :biggrin:  Unfortunately that panel needs to stay live even in the "off" hours as I almost always have people working in the building until the wee hours and during weekends.  That particular panel supplies the power for the circulating pumps for the building's HVAC system as well as a couple of tenets' computer systems that stay live 24/7.  Major power outages are one thing and unavoidable but I just can't bring a panel down on a "whim", even one of mine! :biggrin:

With already having three #3 awg wires and a #10 awg wire in the conduit I have my doubts about the viability of the "shop vac method".  I just don't think whatever I were to use (unless it were a maybe a portly ferret ) would be able to seal well enough to propel it along.

I did try and use a flexible "bore scope" to see what was up but it only has a 3' reach and the problem area was out of it's range.  Now, if I were to strap a mini-cam to the ferret...  

-Ron


----------



## Tony Wells

Can you use the #10 as a pull string? And pull a new #10 run along with the #3?


----------



## Starlight Tools

Ron

I agree with 42 especially as it goes with what I just mentioned, use the #10 wire to pull through a length of thin rope, then pull a #3, a #10 and another length of rope into the conduit.  If the #10 that came out is in good shape, you could pull it back in, or at least it is a lesser expensive wire to replace if necessary.

Walter


----------



## ScrapMetal

42 said:


> Can you use the #10 as a pull string? And pull a new #10 run along with the #3?





starlight_tools said:


> Ron
> 
> I agree with 42 especially as it goes with what I just mentioned, use the #10 wire to pull through a length of thin rope, then pull a #3, a #10 and another length of rope into the conduit.  If the #10 that came out is in good shape, you could pull it back in, or at least it is a lesser expensive wire to replace if necessary.
> 
> Walter




Good call guys.  This is going to be my "Plan C" for tomorrow (if I can get a hold of some #3 wire), plans A and B are in the trash heap.  My only misgivings with this (still think it's the best option at this point) is that if something goes awry I lose my ground and then wouldn't want to turn the power back on in the "shop" without it.  "No guts, no glory!" I guess. :biggrin:

As always, tune in tomorrow.  Same bat time, same bat channel. :biggrin:

-Ron


----------



## ScrapMetal

All went fairly well today.  How's that for a big surprise?  :biggrin:

I cobbled together something to make the pull easier (out of some 12 gauge wire, a couple of wood screws, and a broom).


Now if I had taken the time to get/make a solid spool I wouldn't have had to run back and forth after pulling 10' - 20' of wire.  It did get the job done though.  The white stuff on the wire is actually the yellow pull lubricant and you can also see that I pulled through some nylon line as now I have to pull some #6 awg (not #10 that was for a different ground) tomorrow.

Remember those costs I mentioned earlier?  So far I have about $500 in wire alone.  Good thing I only had to pull one leg through.  Now I need to figure out just what power panel I need to get.  I'd like it to be just a bit bigger than the current panel but I don't know as of yet whether anyone makes a panel of that size for 3-phase/4 wire, 240v, and 100 amps.  Time for a bit more research it would seem.

Actually making some headway :biggrin:,

-Ron


----------



## pdentrem

Alright! The biggest problem is now behind you, once you have finished pulling your wire, you can move forward and power up you equipment.


----------



## ScrapMetal

pdentrem said:


> Alright! The biggest problem is now behind you, once you have finished pulling your wire, you can move forward and power up you equipment.




I'm a bit "closer" anyway.   Lots to do yet before I'm ready to apply power to anything.  Replacing that power panel is a big one.  Can't use the "old" panel as it's just a single phase.  I have to find a 3-phase/4 wire box to replace it with.  Once that is done I've still got to put in the conduit and sockets to plug in to.  It's sort of like making something on the lathe/mill, where you can spend a good chunk of the time making a custom tool/fixture to do the actual job.  :biggrin:  I've got bunches to do before I can just "plug in". 

I'm starting to get a better understanding of just "why" it costs the power company so much to do a 3-phase drop.

-Ron


----------



## Old Iron

Ron check ebay for a used box. I got mine off ebay a lot bigger than I needed but the price was right.

Paul


----------



## ScrapMetal

Old Iron said:


> Ron check ebay for a used box. I got mine off ebay a lot bigger than I needed but the price was right.
> 
> Paul



Thanks Paul.  I'll give that a try.

-Ron


----------



## Hawkeye

Check to see if there is an outlet in your area that deals in used electrical equipment. It's possible that they would have just what you need. It probably won't be as cheap as eBay, but you can at least inspect it before you buy and there won't be shipping charges. Try to find the same brand you have now so you can use the breakers you already have. Pay attention to plug-in vs bolt-on breakers.


----------



## ScrapMetal

Hawkeye said:


> Check to see if there is an outlet in your area that deals in used electrical equipment. It's possible that they would have just what you need. It probably won't be as cheap as eBay, but you can at least inspect it before you buy and there won't be shipping charges. Try to find the same brand you have now so you can use the breakers you already have. Pay attention to plug-in vs bolt-on breakers.



Funny you should mention this.  I just did a bit of checking and there is one place in town that might have something, called "Builder's Surplus".  I may run over there this afternoon to see if they have anything I can use.  Good call on making sure the breakers and such are compatible with what I have, those silly things get expensive.

Thanks,

-Ron


----------



## oldscouser

ScrapMetal said:


> I've seen plenty of talk on the VFDs and RFCs but haven't gleaned enough information to make any intelligent decisions on how to, or even if I can, find a good solution to this little dilemma.
> 
> I just purchased a Wells-Index 860C mill from a dealer up in MI and we've yet to work out the delivery but I need to start thinking about how I'm going to power it.  The mill is set up for 3-phase 440v but in my little one stall garage/shop I only have 1-phase 220v (and 110v of course).
> 
> Do I have any options for VFDs/RFCs or will I need to bite the bullet and call an electrician to run another line to my humble hole?  I suppose that there would also be the option of changing out the motor(s) but wouldn't that create other problems with the power feeds?
> 
> Side note:  I do have electronics experience though it dates back to discrete components and hasn't been used much in the last 30 years but I've never had to deal directly with power systems, especially not the kind involved here.
> 
> So, any help or advice would be most appreciated,
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> -Ron



Hello Ron.
If you have yet to reach a solution to running 3 phase motors from a single phase supply may I recommend 'Electric Motors in the Home Workshop' by Jim Cox.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Electric-Motors-Home-Workshop-Practice/dp/1854861336

And also Electric Motors (Workshop Practice)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Electric-Mo...2464/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_y/278-1146272-6928456

There is a wealth of information in both.

atb, Ian


----------



## refinery Mike

they do make VFDs that take 220 single phase in and output 480 three phase. I have three of them but they are only 3/4 horse. I was trouble shooting one and was amazed when i found out that the motor was three phase and that it only a single phase 220 feed was pulled to the motor. I dont know how but the thing works.


----------

