# It's a Mitut.. What?? !!



## graham-xrf (Apr 7, 2020)

The "me too" with the name thing is such a tacky gambit + at the silly bargain price, one has every reason to expect the innards are hardly more that a toy! As for "jewels"  Hmm.. Not even worth the time to smack it apart and look inside.

*Miluloyo*
From a UK eBay seller. $8.58 + $3.80 postage.


- - - - 

*MitutDgD*
Now this is one I actually possess. It came along with some magnetic stand stuff from a UK field flea market. A variation on the Mitutoyo spelling  using capital "D" for the "o", and a "g" for the "y", because it also has the descender. A trick to fool the eye on a quick glance.




I don't know what this one might have sold for, but just because of the brazen messing with the Mitutoyo name, I strongly suspect it is cheaply built inside. This one claims made in Japan. The surprising thing is, so far, it actually "works". I know the messing with the name is a bit desperate as a sales technique - but when it comes to cost-effective functionalty, are these Chinese and Japanese makers somewhat showing us how?


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## higgite (Apr 7, 2020)

The MitutDgD at least had the decency to put a Mitutoyo part number on the dial so it doesn't look like a cheap copy.   

Tom


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## Cadillac (Apr 7, 2020)

Couldn't buy a authentic replacement tip for 12 bucks. Wonder what miluloyo means in Japanese maybe gotcha or sucker.


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## graham-xrf (Apr 8, 2020)

From the land that succeeded in selling us "Pet Rocks" and Pokomon cards (I think), it would be poetic justice if the name coincidentally also meant "sucker".


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## BGHansen (Apr 8, 2020)

You never know, but seriously, they may be OK.  I had a buddy at work who returned to his China homeland with him mom and siblings for a tour of their roots.  He brought back a number of fake Rolex watches.  One of our co-workers dad was a jeweler; he took the watch apart and was very impressed with the craftsmanship.  I've had pretty good luck with no-name Chinese measuring equipment.  Of course, if it's being faked as a Mitutoyo, I wouldn't expect to pay Mitutoyo prices.

Bruce


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## Briney Eye (Apr 8, 2020)

It's a common ploy these days.  I bought an "Omron" rotary encoder a while back that actually says "Ormou" in the same font, so at a glance it's easy to miss.  It works just as well as the "real" one, though.

-Jon


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## graham-xrf (Apr 8, 2020)

BGHansen said:


> Of course, if it's being faked as a Mitutoyo, I wouldn't expect to pay Mitutoyo prices.


I get that! The stuff I have trouble with are those which _are_ high priced, or relatively high priced, and may be Mitutoyo counterfeits. I choked a bit on Mitutoyo for the Absolute Caliper, and I could not decode the pricing (UK) between up to £200, and stuff that seemed the same, asking to beyond £400. I put it down to margins of variable generosity.

In the end, I purchased a iGaging OriginCal Absolute Origin Encoder with data output capability for £52.95 delivered (that's about $66 USD). It is made in China. It seems to feel and work just as well as a Mitutoyo Absolute I used at work. Of course, it is not trying to be a knock-off!

If the innards of a fake Rolex, or a Chinese-made (something) are as good or better than an overpriced Starrett (whatever), then the home industries simply have to do it better, or start to notice we are buying the Chinese kit.

Hmm.. not even sure Starrett is really USA anymore.
Oh.. gosh! Maybe they are now Starrett selling Starrett cheap knock-offs!


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## graham-xrf (Apr 8, 2020)

Briney Eye said:


> It's a common ploy these days.  I bought an "Omron" rotary encoder a while back that actually says "Ormou" in the same font, so at a glance it's easy to miss.  It works just as well as the "real" one, though.


They are clever at that. The "l's" in "Miluloyo, in the font they use, amount to a "t" without the crossed line.


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## BGHansen (Apr 8, 2020)

We're told at work to watch for sites with "rn" as opposed to "m" in the spelling.  It'd be very easy to see a link to "hobby rnachinst" and mistake it for "hobby machinist".

Bruce


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## graham-xrf (Apr 8, 2020)

BGHansen said:


> We're told at work to watch or sites with "rn" as opposed to "m" in the spelling.  It'd be very easy to see a link to "hobby rnachinst" and mistake it for "hobby machinist".


Hee Hee - I get that, but maybe hobby rnachinist is not the best example.
It would not be too difficult to spot that it was just a different kind of porn.


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## aliva (Apr 8, 2020)

Hey don't knock pet rocks, I still have mine. Took many years to train though


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## Aaron_W (Apr 8, 2020)

graham-xrf said:


> I get that! The stuff I have trouble with are those which _are_ high priced, or relatively high priced, and may be Mitutoyo counterfeits. I choked a bit on Mitutoyo for the Absolute Caliper, and I could not decode the pricing (UK) between up to £200, and stuff that seemed the same, asking to beyond £400. I put it down to margins of variable generosity.
> 
> In the end, I purchased a iGaging OriginCal Absolute Origin Encoder with data output capability for £52.95 delivered (that's about $66 USD). It is made in China. It seems to feel and work just as well as a Mitutoyo Absolute I used at work. Of course, it is not trying to be a knock-off!
> 
> ...




Starrett has a cheaper Chinese made line now. I was looking at dial calipers and was seeing some new Starrett's for about $100, which seemed like a pretty good price, and then I found out that those are the Chinese made ones. The 3202-6 is made in China and lists a retail price of $116, the USA made 120-A6 retails for $216. I ended up getting a used Swiss made Tesa for $60.


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## MrWhoopee (Apr 8, 2020)

BGHansen said:


> You never know, but seriously, they may be OK.  I had a buddy at work who returned to his China homeland with him mom and siblings for a tour of their roots.  He brought back a number of fake Rolex watches.  One of our co-workers dad was a jeweler; he took the watch apart and was very impressed with the craftsmanship.  I've had pretty good luck with no-name Chinese measuring equipment.  Of course, if it's being faked as a Mitutoyo, I wouldn't expect to pay Mitutoyo prices.
> 
> Bruce



Reminds me of a trip to Malaysia in '87. The wife and I were in one of those really tranquil Japanese restaurants. I overheard the gentlemen sitting next to  us discussing injection molding, then sewing. I had to ask them what they did. They told me they worked for Mattel and frequently traveled to Asia to source manufacturing. When word of these trips got around to their family and friends, the started getting requests for "Rolex" watches. They made a sport of bringing back the absolute worst Rolex knock-offs that they could find.  They had some amazingly bad ones.


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## Cadillac (Apr 8, 2020)

Starrett has a economy line which is not branded starrett. It’s what it says a economy line but built to their specs. Not garbage but definitely not starrett quality. When you pay for authentic branded tooling you have the guarantee it’s gonna be to the specs listed if it got through qc with a fault they honor their product no questions ask. The op’s test indicator will probably do all he ask. But if he was rolling out expensive parts that were qc’d the first rack of returned parts he got I’d bet he’d be buying a true starrett or mitutoyo from the company not fleabay.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Apr 8, 2020)

I had purchased a "Mitutoyo" 6" caliper from Ebay. It was guaranteed 100% authentic. Box/case/certificate...everything. It came and the only thing that gave me 100% doubt (besides ebay and the price) The SN and the certificate didn't match. I returned it got a refund and the address they gave me to return was bogus so it bounced back to me & I got to keep it. I'll say this, its my favorite caliper, its actually very nice to use. Whatever this all is worth.


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## Cadillac (Apr 8, 2020)

They counterfeit everything that sells. Down to laser etching bogus serial numbers and hologram tags. You’d have to have a authentic next to it to see the real one. Etching would be slightly different or different font. I’ve seen it with golf clubs and it took a sales rep to show the differences. Which were obvious once you had a real one next to it to compare.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Apr 8, 2020)

Yeah, my calipers may not be Mit quality, but easily as good as top of the line Shars...which I really like Shars stuff for the price/quality balance.


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## graham-xrf (Apr 9, 2020)

Cadillac said:


> Starrett has a economy line which is not branded starrett. It’s what it says a economy line but built to their specs. Not garbage but definitely not starrett quality. When you pay for authentic branded tooling you have the guarantee it’s gonna be to the specs listed if it got through qc with a fault they honor their product no questions ask. The op’s test indicator will probably do all he ask. But if he was rolling out expensive parts that were qc’d the first rack of returned parts he got I’d bet he’d be buying a true starrett or mitutoyo from the company not fleabay.


Indeed - and agreed! I may have some Chinese kit which I find to be OK, but I do steadily build my "premium" stuff as I can afford. I have a genuine Mitutoyo dial caliper from an auction that seems flawless. A Mitutoyo micrometer that needed a slight adjust for calibration, and otherwise was OK except for needing a little touch-up paint on the outermost edge. When I do need something, I try to get the best. I like feel and function and certainty of quality stuff.

When I need the kit, I use it. Yes - carefully, and I put it away after. I don't let it be like museum pieces in the "premium" cupboard. The thing is, some Chinese stuff performs well enough to be kept in that same cupboard!


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## GunsOfNavarone (Apr 9, 2020)

This brings up a good question. What is the quality/accuracy when you buy something name brand and used? Is a mitutoyo digital mic going to be as reliable and accurate as say a brand new, top of the line Shars? I would guess the cost would be similar. There is always an inherent risk when buying used off eBay. I purchased a used Mitutoyo micrometer (I think it’s from the 60’s. Man it needed taking a parting, cleaning repairing. Seems silky smooth now and really it’s just a paper weight on my desk, but how good is it?


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## graham-xrf (Apr 9, 2020)

GunsOfNavarone said:


> There is always an inherent risk when buying used off eBay.


There is an inherent risk in even buying *NEW* off eBay! Unless it is a bigger item from a home country supplier, with a 2 or 3 year guarantee. The suppliers can spoof a local address, and in the end, you get a refund from eBay + a big hassle returning it, or even just claiming because it never arrived.



> I purchased a used Mitutoyo micrometer (I think it’s from the 60’s. Man it needed taking a parting, cleaning repairing. Seems silky smooth now and really it’s just a paper weight on my desk, but how good is it?


You measure something known with it. A drill rod, or gauge block, or the little standard that maybe came with it. Will it reliably return to zero? Maybe compare it to something else you know is good.

How good am I at making a repeat measurement?! You will either come to trust it, or find out what is wrong with it.
When I cannot trust, and have to know, I go back to basics. A (limited) set of gauge blocks and an abused optical flat.


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## graham-xrf (Apr 9, 2020)

I expect we all play somewhat hardball when it comes to the unvarnished truth about the quality of stuff.
In the spirit of the game mentioned by @MrWhoopee


> They made a sport of bringing back the absolute worst Rolex knock-offs that they could find.  They had some amazingly bad ones.


..This can be a place to post what you know to be, or can reasonably be suspected to be .. _really crappy_!
Knock-offs also welcome - but say if they are really good quality ones!


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## Nogoingback (Apr 9, 2020)

Cadillac said:


> Starrett has a economy line which is not branded starrett. It’s what it says a economy line but built to their specs. Not garbage but definitely not starrett quality. When you pay for authentic branded tooling you have the guarantee it’s gonna be to the specs listed if it got through qc with a fault they honor their product no questions ask. The op’s test indicator will probably do all he ask. But if he was rolling out expensive parts that were qc’d the first rack of returned parts he got I’d bet he’d be buying a true starrett or mitutoyo from the company not fleabay.



I don't know about Starrett any more.  I bought a new 93B tap handle some time ago and it wouldn't hold a tap even remotely straight.  I sent it back and what was returned was better but still no good at all.  When I get to it I'll
just buy something older or a Mitutoyo.  I don't plan on buying anything new from Starrett again.


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## markba633csi (Apr 9, 2020)

The low cost of labor is a big factor in counterfeiting.  I've seen videos of ic chips being pulled off boards, the numbers sanded off and the parts remarked and sold as genuine.  Many hours spent to make a few dollars


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## Cadillac (Apr 9, 2020)

Problem buying used stuff on eBay is first of its used. Yes you might get lucky and someone is just selling their stuff. On the other hand they are probably selling it because there’s a underlying problem with it. You can’t test or put in your hands before the sale so your SOL. And they stated it’s used so they have a acknowledged it if you put a complaint to eBay so their cleared.


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## markba633csi (Apr 9, 2020)

If the ad stated "used but functional" then you have a recourse. Or, if broken and you just need it for parts, then you might do okay
especially if you know more about the item than the seller!


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## Aaron_W (Apr 9, 2020)

I haven't had any issues with used measuring devices, but I am very particular with the ads and sellers. If anything suggests that it may not work, or the seller seems not to know much about the function I pass. The ones I have are marked from commercial use, and well used, but fully functional. It is quite possible that they no longer meet specs for certification but they are more accurate than my means for testing (mostly measuring parallels of a known size). They may or may not be more accurate than my cheap tools, but they are clearly higher quality and nicer to use.

These are expensive tools for us as hobbyists but for a working shop they are semi-consumable items. My guess is many are taken in trade and then cleaned up or even refurbished by the seller. Most of mine have come from ebay sellers who had a variety of used machining tools available. Maybe not as cheap as a seller with a micrometer mixed in with Beanie babies and baseball cards, but I think their description is probably more reliable.




GunsOfNavarone said:


> I had purchased a "Mitutoyo" 6" caliper from Ebay. It was guaranteed 100% authentic. Box/case/certificate...everything. It came and the only thing that gave me 100% doubt (besides ebay and the price) The SN and the certificate didn't match. I returned it got a refund and the address they gave me to return was bogus so it bounced back to me & I got to keep it. I'll say this, its my favorite caliper, its actually very nice to use. Whatever this all is worth.



I posted a video in another thread that was somebody going through a counterfeit Mitutoyo and an comparing it to an authentic one. The level of detail to distinguish the fake from the real was pretty amazing. They were looking at things like the included battery being the wrong type / brand, things like the serial not matching the certificate (which is just a copy of a real one). The big give away for many are when their Japanese made tool ships from China...


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## GunsOfNavarone (Apr 9, 2020)

Aaron_W said:


> I haven't had any issues with used measuring devices, but I am very particular with the ads and sellers. If anything suggests that it may not work, or the seller seems not to know much about the function I pass. The ones I have are marked from commercial use, and well used, but fully functional. It is quite possible that they no longer meet specs for certification but they are more accurate than my means for testing (mostly measuring parallels of a known size). They may or may not be more accurate than my cheap tools, but they are clearly higher quality and nicer to use.
> 
> These are expensive tools for us as hobbyists but for a working shop they are semi-consumable items. My guess is many are taken in trade and then cleaned up or even refurbished by the seller. Most of mine have come from ebay sellers who had a variety of used machining tools available. Maybe not as cheap as a seller with a micrometer mixed in with Beanie babies and baseball cards, but I think their description is probably more reliable.
> 
> ...


Yep, that is the counterfeit Mitutoyo I purchased. It was the smallest detail where you found the flaws (battery, SN matching the papers...) but it is a VERY good counterfeit, which at least, is better than some of the cheaper stuff you can buy out there. I really like it, in fact, I purchased a very good unit from a very accomplished machinist that was retiring (very wealthy at that)I'd assume its a decent/high end name that I'm not familiar with, but I like it better than that one. I'll have to go look at it again to get the name off it. I'd like to say I would never buy Chinese, but more and more, thats hard to do. There aren't many American companies left, of those, the prices don't make sense for someone who really doesn't make an income from those tools. Good to share the "gems" out these we come across. For me, I swear by Shars.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Apr 9, 2020)

I guess sort of on topic...can anyone tell me what these calipers are?


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## graham-xrf (Apr 9, 2020)

@GunsOfNavarone : Would like to try, but the picture is smaller than some thumbnails.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Apr 9, 2020)

Here’s a larger pic


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## tweinke (Apr 9, 2020)

GunsOfNavarone said:


> Here’s a larger pic
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 CME tools, Complete Manufacturer's Equipment Corp. I have bought from them on eBay


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## Nogoingback (Apr 10, 2020)

Cadillac said:


> Problem buying used stuff on eBay is first of its used. Yes you might get lucky and someone is just selling their stuff. On the other hand they are probably selling it because there’s a underlying problem with it. You can’t test or put in your hands before the sale so your SOL. And they stated it’s used so they have a acknowledged it if you put a complaint to eBay so their cleared.



All true: there is risk with eBay, but if you know what you're looking at and take your time, there are good deals to be had. 
I've bought a fair amount of stuff on eBay over the years and have never been scammed, and with the exception of a couple minor issues that were resolved to my satisfaction, never had a problem.  I've bought some very nices tools
on eBay including a Swiss made B & S micrometer in new condition for 25 bucks.  But, I pay very close attention to details and I'm never in a hurry.  And, I've saved a lot of money.


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## graham-xrf (Apr 10, 2020)

@GunsOfNavarone : There seems no limit to the depths of knock-off fakery.
From @tweinke : (our thanks) CME tools, Complete Manufacturer's Equipment Corp

At least the caliper has a brand name logo ..
The similarity, or allusion to the trading group's blue globe might just be coincidental.





When you look through the cheap calipers on eBay, excluding the all-plastic variety, and study the pictures, you eventually can spot the common manufacture between some. You find some branded ones that have a too-exact giveaway feature where the only difference is the style of the battery cover. Probably there is a factory somewhere churning out caliper parts that find their way into several generic and branded products.

Yours has a characteristic metal strap with two tiny screws on the end. It has similarities to my cheapo which was sold as "Silverline, but mine has only a small screw on the rear side as a end stop.




The buttons are re-arranged. Notice the crappy calibration. That "cheap" caliper is cheap no more, because I disassembled it, and gave it a few "improvements". I broke the sharp edges and sharp corners on all except in the jaws, using a fine slip stone that had be rubbed on another. A couple of swipes at 45° does it. Then I reworked the little copper gib in the slide and set the little screws that it had near zero clearance, but still moved smoothly, without any rocking. The error is now a bit less - in inches, about 4 to 7 tenths of thou. That is maybe OK for this grade of caliper.

I find exactly the same buttons and battery compartment style here --> eBay Cheapo
except it has the little bar end stop, exactly like yours.

We all do not have enough life left to expend on decoding the provenance of eBay and Harbor Freight calipers.
There are lots of YT videos on "How to spot a fake Mitutoyo", and disturbingly, some on discovering a not-so-cheap fake that actually performs well. The guys will even measure the micro-amps through the battery connections when the calipers are "switched off", as part of their "caliper DNA" investigations.

For me, something in the $10 to $20 range is allowed to disappoint in some way. If it "works OK" for a while, that is a bonus. Something in the $60 to $100 range is not allowed to disappoint!

For @GunsOfNavarone :  See what else has the same brand.. --> CME HERE
No little strap on the end - like my "Silverline"

And in most other ways, looking like the "other" thing that lurks at my place.



.. which is so known for chewing batteries that I just keep it (the battery) laying about in it's (also cheapo) plastic case.


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