# Whole house weirdness...this is crazy!



## GunsOfNavarone (Sep 3, 2022)

Calling all electrical gurus! As of late, I have been in my shop and heard UPS' clicking on and off. My wife said smart lights have come on, on their own. I was in the bathroom this morning and I noticed lights getting brighter and dimmer. I put a meter on an outlet, voltage was varying from 98 to 144 volts! WTH? After scanning the house trying to figure what was going on....I found it was my new, pricey espresso maker from Italy. NOOOOOOO!!!!!
Anyway, turn that off and my house is stable, no more variance in voltage. Now, that machine is on a GFI outlet, but I have a tester, and it does trip. I put the espresso machine on a different outlet/curcuit....same issue. I can (and will) contact vendor, but ideas fellas? (Bill...please be gentle) I honestly cannot fathom WHAT issue could cause ENTIRE house to do this, especially without tripping something.
Thanks guys


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## Flyinfool (Sep 3, 2022)

It sounds like you have a bad connection in the house wiring or even possibly outside at the meter or even the pole.
Do you have any other high power appliance that turns on and off that uses a lot of power to see if similar weird things happen? something like an air conditioner or space heater or electric fry pan.........


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## Nigel123 (Sep 3, 2022)

GunsOfNavarone said:


> Calling all electrical gurus! As of late, I have been in my shop and heard UPS' clicking on and off. My wife said smart lights have come on, on their own. I was in the bathroom this morning and I noticed lights getting brighter and dimmer. I put a meter on an outlet, voltage was varying from 98 to 144 volts! WTH? After scanning the house trying to figure what was going on....I found it was my new, pricey espresso maker from Italy. NOOOOOOO!!!!!
> Anyway, turn that off and my house is stable, no more variance in voltage. Now, that machine is on a GFI outlet, but I have a tester, and it does trip. I put the espresso machine on a different outlet/curcuit....same issue. I can (and will) contact vendor, but ideas fellas? (Bill...please be gentle) I honestly cannot fathom WHAT issue could cause ENTIRE house to do this, especially without tripping something.
> Thanks guys


I would check out the neutral wire it looks like you are getting unbalanced loads which the neutral should take care of
This would be on your feed from the supply to your panel
In Canada the neutral is gounded at the panel or meter dont know if it is the same as the states


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## Just for fun (Sep 3, 2022)

I agree with Nigel123.  I would call the power company and have them check out the incoming power.  I don't think your espresso machine would or could change the voltage if things were correct on the incoming side.


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## markba633csi (Sep 3, 2022)

It's likely you have a problem with the neutral connection to your house- it's supposed to be grounded at the pole but
they sometimes come loose which can give the symptoms you described
Espresso machines draw a lot of current and often have a lot of electrical leakage from the heating element but I don't think it's the culprit- only a symptom
of the bigger problem. It's good that you have the machine on a GFI- if/when the heating element is starting to fail the GFI will trip
-M
The power company should measure the voltage drop from the neutral to a true earth ground like a water pipe-


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## GunsOfNavarone (Sep 3, 2022)

Possibly related, I just had my whole house stripped to the studs replaced osb boards, insulation and cement siding. Obviously the panel was removed (loosed) from house to do this. Related? Maybe? Probably? I have a call into power company to come out. 80k for this jobs and there have been many screw ups. My AC went out during this, I though coincidental….I checked it out and the capacitor blew. Replaced it and it’s been fine. Related? Well if voltage has dropped to 98v (that I KNOW of) then absolutely. I’ll let you all know what power company says, glad it’s not my espresso maker, but odd we only see the issues when it’s on….nothing else. (Machine shop, AC, microwave, washer/dryer) there has to bigger draws in the house than espresso machine.


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## Eddyde (Sep 3, 2022)

I agree it appears to be a intermittent neutral fault. It could be the lug on the neutral busbar is loose (especially if its aluminum wire). You can tighten it if you have the skills or have an electrician do it. It's also a good idea to tighten all the lugs to the neutral branch circuits and check the breaker lugs, periodically.


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## ddickey (Sep 3, 2022)

Take your espresso machine to your neighbors and try it there.


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## rabler (Sep 3, 2022)

Like others have mentioned, the first thing that comes to mind is a bad neutral connection.  The neutral connection is your zero volts reference for the working power to appliances.  If a central connection on the neutral is bad, then the neutral voltage will swing toward whichever leg of your panel is drawing more current.  This causes the voltage on one leg to drop, and the other leg to rise.  These changes can occur rapidly as various things like your expresso machine switch on/off.  That widely fluctuating voltage then causes other things in the house, like the smart lights, etc, to glitch.  This is a problem that needs to be addressed as it could easily result in damaging electrical appliances.

Note that 240V appliances, like a water heater, electric range, etc, will not cause the neutral to swing because they don't rely on the neutral.  The neutral line is only used for 120V devices.   Unbalanced load between the two 120V mains is the issue if it is a floating neutral.  Imagine if you had two standard light bulbs, wired in series across 240 volts with the middle + wired to neutral

  L1---bulb1-----+------bulb2---L2

Normally the + in the middle is connected to neutral, but if the neutral connection on the backside of the panel is bad, then those bulbs are just in series across the 240V lines.  If the bulbs are equal wattage than each bulb will get 120V.  If the bulbs are unequal wattage, than they will get unequal voltages. 

Neutral is suppose to be connected all the way to the power transformer.  It is also connected to the grounding system (green grounding wire) in one place, typically at your service disconnect.   The exact requirements are defined in the electrical code.   My first *guess* would be that when working on the siding the jostling of the lines associated with the main panel caused the main neutral wire to work loose.  Often those large main wires are aluminum, quite stiff, and subject to surface oxidation which causes poor connections.  That may fall on your side of the power service.  Often the power company boundary is at or shortly after the meter,  so the power company may not be willing to diagnose and fix it.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Sep 3, 2022)

Thanks all! I'm not going to say you're all geniuses. but you all might be. Waiting for electric company, I pulled the panel cover. The neutral bus bar service supply was somewhat loose. Tightened it really well and went along and tightened everything. There was a lot of aluminum line BTW. Also found the physical ground to earth was very loose. perhaps not even functioning for its purpose. Buttoned everything up went in and turned on espresso maker. All is well. solid at 122v.
I've said it before. there is a plethora of knowledge here. I would (and did jump to) it being my espresso machine. No way, no how I would think about service panel.
Thanks all!


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## pontiac428 (Sep 3, 2022)

Last time that happened to me, I tightened up the grounds on the bus bar and found some had come loose.  Problem solved!


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## Eddyde (Sep 3, 2022)

GunsOfNavarone said:


> There was a lot of aluminum line BTW.


If there is aluminum wire going to the branch circuits, you should check the outlets switches and light fixture connections and bring them up to code if necessary. Aluminum wire can be a fire hazard if not properly installed. See attached pdf for more info.


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## markba633csi (Sep 3, 2022)

Lot of old fogies here- we've seen it all because we've done it all.  Something like that.
Old age and experience will always triumph over youth and enthusiasm


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## tq60 (Sep 3, 2022)

Go back and check to see if there is Grease in the connections with aluminum.

If dry they need to be pulled out, made shiny and correct Grease added.

Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk


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## higgite (Sep 3, 2022)

The loose ground that you found was the culprit. I've seen it happen before. If the neutral isn't solidly grounded, it will float and the 240V incoming won't split evenly between the 2 hot buses and the neutral because of imbalanced loads on each leg. The greater the current imbalance is on each leg, the greater the voltage imbalance will be. Hence, your 98-144 volt readings when your new espresso maker was plugged in. Do the math. 98 to neutral on one leg + 144 to neutral on the other leg = 242 volts, close enough to 240 volts.   

Tom


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## rabler (Sep 3, 2022)

I don’t claim to be a NEC expert, and ground vs. neutral nomenclature can be confusing.  But interestingly, NEC seems to allow 25 ohms to ground, although 5 ohms is considered good by some standards.  Even at 5 ohms, a 10 amp current imbalance would mean 50 volts from zero on the neutral if the ground rod is used as the sole way of keeping the neutral bus stable.   For this reason, the neutral connection to the transformer is the critical link in keeping the two legs at 120V.


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## Nigel123 (Sep 4, 2022)

rabler said:


> I don’t claim to be a NEC expert, and ground vs. neutral nomenclature can be confusing.  But interestingly, NEC seems to allow 25 ohms to ground, although 5 ohms is considered good by some standards.  Even at 5 ohms, a 10 amp current imbalance would mean 50 volts from zero on the neutral if the ground rod is used as the sole way of keeping the neutral bus stable.   For this reason, the neutral connection to the transformer is the critical link in keeping the two legs at 120V.


Good point on the neutral link being critical
A friend had a tree break the neutral support cable and the ground rods didnt take the unbalanced load the fridge fan melted when it caught fire
When voltage shifts like that happens power should be turned off until the problem is corrected
I am surprised no damage to appliances happened in this instance


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## tq60 (Sep 4, 2022)

Squirrels ate ours and made things go odd.

Power Co fixed it fast.

Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk


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## Bi11Hudson (Sep 4, 2022)

A loose neutral is behind many, nay most, "weird" occurances in a residental system. You seem to have found the source for your's but I would suggest that with aluminium involved, *every* connection be checked. Including the entrance ahead of the meter. The power company handles everything above the meter, *they must* recrimp the splices. There is a "grease" that is used between alum and copper. (or brass) It is important that such grease be applied to *every* connection where this occurs.

.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Sep 4, 2022)

Nigel123 said:


> Good point on the neutral link being critical
> A friend had a tree break the neutral support cable and the ground rods didnt take the unbalanced load the fridge fan melted when it caught fire
> When voltage shifts like that happens power should be turned off until the problem is corrected
> I am surprised no damage to appliances happened in this instance


Well, being therer was new siding/windows and gutters...we had our 6' sliding door removed and an 8' one put in. Popper $550 for motorized blinds as they were so tall.....3 days later the motor blew. I'm guessing this is why. My AC stopped working...I found the capacitor blew. Pretty much everything in the garage is on a UPS or voltage regulator....forgot what it's called, smooths out the highs/lows. Only time will tell all that took a hit.


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## woodchucker (Sep 4, 2022)

tq60 said:


> Go back and check to see if there is Grease in the connections with aluminum.
> 
> If dry they need to be pulled out, made shiny and correct Grease added.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk


grease or NO OX? Or will grease suffice for NO-OX


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## Bi11Hudson (Sep 4, 2022)

"No-Ox" is one of the *many* brands of interface greases available. When I stated "grease", that is what I was refering to. It is specificaly for electrical connections and has no lubricity as such. *DO NOT* use regular lubricating grease, wheel bearing grease, for electrical connections. The grease is formulated specifically for aluminium to copper connections and should be available at most any hardware store that carries electrical devices.

Power companys have used aluminium for transmission lines and service drops since the mid '60s. AL came into common use for residental internal wiring a few years later as copper got even more expensive. There was a moritorium placed in the late '70s-early 80s on aluminium wiring for "branch circuits". (it became 'illegal' for new work) However, it was still allowed for entrance and heavy 240 volt (range, dryer, installed AC) loads. In recent times, I have heard of a resurgance in its' use for internal wiring. I am, and always have been, using copper wiring. Period, no 'just this once'. I have lost several of jobs when I first came out of the service for such a stance. That's why I went industrial. . .

Today, the are many (most?) connectors (plugs) marked "AL/CU" or "CU/AL" that can accomodate aluminium wiring. Or so I hear, I stick with copper Romex or UF or conduit myself, so it's a non-issue. Power suppliers use such connectors even when connecting AL to AL. The crimps have that little extra 'something' that makes for better connections.

The original concern is that brass is a compound (alloy) of copper and zinc (brass) or tin. (bronze) Aluminium has a different coefficient of expansion than copper, much higher. When, for example, a receptical is loaded heavily, the AL expands more than the brass screws it is landed under. As the load is removed, the AL shrinks to its' original size but the brass doesn't. This leaves a gap of sorts. Over time, such a gap corrodes, increasing resistance in the junction and generating heat. The heat exacerbates the problem, causing the joint to further expand. Essentially positive feedback, the problem getting worse each time. Such a problem was eventually traced as the root cause of many fires, some catastrophic. That is why it was outlawed for new work.

Modern connectors can accomodate such expansion, or so I am told. I'll just stick with copper for what little I do these days.

.


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## pdentrem (Sep 4, 2022)

Some of our machines are powered via heavy AL wire. Has to be direct from the panel to the machine. No junctions apparently per the electrician.
Pierre


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## Bi11Hudson (Sep 4, 2022)

Aluminium wire is not as conductive as copper. For *most* applications where AL is used, the wire must be "derated" one wire size. That is to say that when a 15 amp circuit is in use, AWG 14 copper wire will carry the load. If aluminium is used, the wire size must be increased to AWG 12 with the same 15A fuse or circuit breaker. 

This "rule of thumb" applies from AWG 14 copper up to at least 000-3/0 copper which becomes AWG 12 to 0000-4/0 AL. That being a service drop capable of handling 200 amps at 240 volts. There are many other factors relating to entrance cables. The AWG 4/0 I am referring to is type SER, a flat cable of two current carrying conductors and a slightly smaller wire wrapped around the other two in a spiral inside a jacket. If the entrance cable from the meter to the splice is a cable, it *likely *is SER. That type of cable is available as copper as well. It is available from AWG 6 and larger, maybe smaller. I never needed any so don't know. Type SER is used for branch cables of heavy 240 volt loads, although AL is commonly in use too.

Aluminium is/was used widely for industrial applications as well. When heavier wire is needed, the cost of AL far outweighs the cost of smaller copper. The installations I have touched on here are for residential uses, mostly because more readers can look at their "house power" boxes or entrances and recognize what they see.

.


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## GunsOfNavarone (Nov 2, 2022)

So, if I wanted to clean up my connections in my breaker box and put dielectric grease in there as well, what is the safe technique for doing this?


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## rabler (Nov 2, 2022)

GunsOfNavarone said:


> So, if I wanted to clean up my connections in my breaker box and put dielectric grease in there as well, what is the safe technique for doing this?


@Bi11Hudson may have more/better advice, but *IF* you have a service disconnect switch between your meter and your breaker box, then shutting that off would allow you to safely work on your breaker box.  Standard safety warning would be to use a voltmeter to check that it is indeed off at the main feed into the breaker box.   If the breaker box is connected directly to the meter without a separate disconnect switch, then I would advise having an electrician look at it.  Even if you throw the main breaker at the top of a breaker box, the lines coming in from the meter would still be hot, and pulling wires loose around those hot terminals is hazardous.


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## Bi11Hudson (Nov 2, 2022)

GunsOfNavarone said:


> So, if I wanted to clean up my connections in my breaker box and put dielectric grease in there as well, what is the safe technique for doing this?


The *"safest"* method to do so is simply remove the meter. If you called an electrician, that is what he would do. That kills *everything* from the bottom of the meter can out. *However,* there are a few problems even with that. Particularly with the power supplier. If you are in *GOOD STANDING* with the power company, having paid your bill regularly for several years, *AND* code authorities are slack *AND* the power lineman is not an a$$, *AND* you have not cut the seal on the box for a while, you *MIGHT* get by with it. I have done so several times, but have lived here 40 plus plus years, have a rather "cum se, cum sa" power supplier, and did the original rewire under a permit myself. If you have a disconnect switch, common in *some* locations, just pull the switch.

What it comes down to is that when you have met *all* of the above, plus a few others that depend on location, and cut the seal on the meter can, the next time a meter reader or lineman comes by, the missing seal will be noted and possibly reported. A second seal, of a different color will be placed and a closer watch kept. If *that* seal is cut within a year or two, you will get a padlock. If *that* is cut, all I can say is "Good Luck" in the forthcoming court case.

Under *any* other conditions, the inside of the breaker box will be hot. There will be some protective panels and the general arrangement of hot wires will protect against contact, shocks, but are in no way absolute. Consider anything behind the panel as a shock hazard. A breaker can be turned off and removed from the panel. Once it is removed, it will be considered safe to touch. Unless there is a "cross feed" or other shenanigans from an inept modification. So double check after the breaker is powered off that there is no power from the terminal to ground. Only then, snap the breaker out of the panel. You are now free to do whatever is required to the breaker terminal in hand.

To apply the grease, loosen the screw and remove the wire. Squirt a *little* grease and and stir it around. Squirt a *little* on the bare wire and coat the exposed conductor. Avoid a glob that would transfer, the grease *is* conductive. Reinsert the wire under the terminal clamp, specificly how will depend on the breaker brand. Tighten well but not overstressed. The expression of "two snaps and a grunt" will be too tight. Replace the breaker in the panel, watching how the wire is dressed. If you encounter a double pole or "piggy back" be sure to do one wire at a time so the connections are not crossed up. Once you have done all except the mains at the top (usually), replace the panel. Do not do the mains, period. *Call a licensed electrician to do them, hot or not*. Remember to grease the white wires where they are located on the "neutral bus". Keep in mind that these wires will likely be hot with the power on. If the panel is not dead, simply tighten them. Do not overtighten them, same as the breaker screws.

If this sounds *complicated and dangerous, that's because it is*. That is one (of many) reason electricians charge such preposterous prices. Your asking how to do it leads me to think you are not competant enough to do the job. I am not saying that you are incompetant in general, but electricity is a very complex and detailed subject requiring years of apprenticeship to wire a house. Industrial knowledge and troubleshooting is even more so. I have well over 50 years in the field, and only know some aspects. The "code" is for people that know what they are doing to start with. If you want to consider this as a disclaimer, please feel free to do so. I was mastered (Fla, ~'74) for a while but now grossly out of date.

Bi11 Hudson
Master Artificer (Ret)

.


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## rabler (Nov 2, 2022)

With my rural co-op, if I or an electrician cut the meter seal, I'd call the power company immediately and tell them it was pulled for work on the main panel rather than waiting for them to discover it.  Generally if reported they don't make a fuss, they just send someone out to replace the seal.  This is especially true with more and more meters being read remotely/over the wire.   Your utility company/permitting/zoning may be different, but giving them a heads up is preferable to them discovering it, as a cut seal is their indication that someone has tampered with THEIR meter and might be stealing power.


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## tq60 (Nov 2, 2022)

Many seals can be picked...

Will not tell you how I know this...

Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk


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## FOMOGO (Nov 2, 2022)

I have just flipped the switch on the transformer at the pole in the past. I have a fiberglass pole and a bucket truck, so not a big deal for me, but I'm sure it would be frowned on by the power company. Mike


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## JPMacG (Nov 3, 2022)

I have worked with electricity all my life and I still find the inside of a meter box too scary to deal with.  The street side of the box can source many hundreds or even thousands of amps.   An accidental short would be spectacular.


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## Bi11Hudson (Nov 3, 2022)

JPMacG said:


> I have worked with electricity all my life and I still find the inside of a meter box too scary to deal with.  The street side of the box can source many hundreds or even thousands of amps.   An accidental short would be spectacular.


The meter can should *never* be worked on. Call the power company for that. Even replacing the ground lead, I coiled it below the can and called the power company. Removing the meter is bad enough, if *any*thing gets inside, even a wet leaf, there is trouble ahead. Working on a residential power panel is dangerous. A couple of times, I have replaced a late model fuse panel with a breaker box for friends. Each time I personally pulled the meter and kept it with me while I worked.

Someone mentioned pulling the jack on the pole. While it would be handy for recrimping the line above the meter, a lineman could come along and put the jack back in while the man was in the house. A small chance, true. But *any* chance is too great unless someone stands there the entire time to be sure no one puts the jack back in. 

There are many "*iffy*" conditions when I will do something edgy. But I have *never* told anyone else to do the same thing. When I do something edgy, it is based on many years of experience. Knowing what I can get away with versus what needs to be left alone. Doing something edgy has usually been in a plant to keep the production machines running. Anyone from maintenance staff will understand why edgy stunts are tried there. Every one else needs to just leave it alone.

Safety tags are sometimes used where lockouts cannot be fitted. I have had safety tags removed by production supervisors. If I ever *saw* it done, it was a guaranteed death sentence from a 36" pipe wrench. No reprieve. . . And I have had a voltage tester break a lead and lie to me. In a hurry to keep the mill running, I didn't check the tester on a seperate circuit. I just trusted it, a bad move, I took 480 across the chest. I'm still alive, more or less, after all those shenanigans because God has something for me to do some day. I have no other answer.

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## K30 (Nov 4, 2022)

Bi11Hudson said:


> And I have had a voltage tester break a lead and lie to me. In a hurry to keep the mill running, I didn't check the tester on a seperate circuit. I just trusted it, a bad move, I took 480 across the chest. I'm still alive, more or less, after all those shenanigans because God has something for me to do some day. I have no other answer.
> 
> .



Live-dead-live, every phase, every time. I see a load of welded contacts. Don't use auto-range either.


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## ddickey (Nov 4, 2022)

Phase to phase then phase to ground.


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## Bi11Hudson (Nov 4, 2022)

On today's Wye or Star systems, Phase to Ground on a 480 system is 277 volts , *except: "Grandfathered"* grounded Delta. One phase *is* ground. Not allowed today, many years ago did have a legitimate use. In a very damp environment, a Delta supply will have a ground voltage that drifts around. A *grounded Delta* system will clear a fuse on a ground,  no shilly-shalleying around. It was outlawed sometime in the '60s I think. But an old system was allowed to continue to run under a "Grandfather" clause.. 

In my case, the plant was built in 1919. At the "break down" end, the billet moves really slow and the reheat furnace was close by. Being an old mill there was little ventilation, I was sweating heavily. On the occasion when my tester "lied" to me, I was steadying myself by holding the frame of the MCC. Then reached down between two buss bars to tighten a loose connection. With one or two phases on one hand and ground *including the third phase* on the other hand, I should not have lived. When the shock threw me backward, I fell against a "live front" 900 volt DC motor controller. Which was live at the time. Nearly 40 years later, all I have is the scar on my left shoulder. The "B" rate helper with me could only stare with a white face, he thought he had just seen a man killed.

As I slowly  came to my senses, a production foreman came in and was yelling about me "lying down on the job". Not fully recovered, I took a pipe wrench, a small one maybe 24 inches, and chased him on to the reheat furnace. The ladder had a cage around it and my pouch got hung up, so he got away from me. When he went to upper management, the "chief electrician" stood up for me and advised the foreman that he was most fortunate to be alive.

A "good" electrician has to maintain "presence of mind" in some very difficult situations. I only worked at that mill for a couple of years. And had several, nay many, close encounters with an archaic system. Like the time I burned up the *line* side of a *115/44KV  *substation. But that is another tall tale and needn't be told here. The point is that electricity is not to be fooled with *unless you know* what you are getting into.

.


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## K30 (Nov 4, 2022)

I think some boondock electric coops, and oilfield junk still occasionally gets corner-ground delta. I don't think it's flat out outlawed, but the equipment has to be rated for it, and no one cares to certify their stuff for it, since it's so oddball. Oilfields are definitely in the "this is sketchy" department


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