# Beauty in The Beast: Webb 5BVK Barn Find/Conversion



## Charlieman22

New to forum & machining generally.
Working on two stroke motors drove my initial interest to learn.
Started searching for a Bridgeport...
Next thing I knew - I was standing outside a barn, 2 hours from my house, looking at a 4K lb non working CNC Webb knee mill.

More about how I got there and this project in a moment - but first - a big thank you to Jim Dawson, who has been stellar in helping me get some basics in CNC.  Let's just say, uncommonly patient...
Some pics and discussion here: https://www.hobby-machinist.com/thr...ted-to-cnc-for-sale.92613/page-11#post-856335

So - about the project.
I've been offered a Webb 5BVK mill from 1989.
For those unfamiliar with this thing - Its basically a Bridgeport.  On steroids.  Lots and lots of steroids.
4000 lbs and boxed ways.
It came from the factory as a CNC, and was loaded with the goodies of that time.
Power draw bar, automated self oil, lubrication and pan, DC brushed servo motors, 5HP spindle drive.

At first glance, a non operational 5BVK might seem like, well, a terrible place to start for a garage based machine.
1.  It could take up half that garage
2.  Being able to work on it is 2x harder when everything weighs 2x...
3.  It is CNC only, and the CNC doesn't work.  Literally there are no handles or places for them.
4-10.  Fill in the blank.  It's old, smells like cutting oil, and is covered in a layer of oily dust and nastiness.

With that said, there are a couple things that have kinda drawn me in.
1.  While this beast is about 6 feet wide, the table is a moderate 42 x 13.  Kinda perfect.
2.  Without David Hasselhof's 1980's Night Rider boxes hanging off the side - its kinda a handsome and literally half as wide.
3.  If I could figure out how to add handles - it would create a manual mill for me with opportunity to go full CNC in Phase II.
4-10.  The price is: Free.  (kinda buried the lead I suppose on that one).

My basic plan is to tackle this in two phases.
I.  Get it cleaned up and operational as a manual.  See how I like it and if it has any fatal flaws.
II.  Take it CNC - with the ability to use manually as well.  DC brushed motors will help allow nice tactile manual feel here (Again - Jim Dawson's input invaluable).

I am completely green with these machines and their use - but I figure learning HOW it operates before I try and OPERATE it is a pretty good base.

Pictures below of this beast (*outside for about 30 days, Im told...)
No significant rust to speak of - surface stuff at worst in a couple places.
Things seem to move freely - but I am holding off that until I can clean it up a bit.
Ways seem in pretty good shape - but will need a closer look after cleaning.

First order of attack will be sorting out a plan for adding hand wheels for manual operation.
A through scrub down and a rolling stand so I can learn the machine/ service, will also be nice.
I'll share my initial thinking in the next post regarding those handles.
Will welcome some critique and ideas on how I might tackle.

Pictures below.
Wife is of course, ecstatic...


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## JimDawson

Subscribed!


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## matthewsx

If it has the servos it may be easier to wire manual controls for the drives, as opposed to fitting hand wheels. I think that would be one step along the CNC path rather than taking a detour.

John


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## mikey

Free?    

Awesome score and I'm hopeful that everything will buff out. 

Congratulations!!!


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## Dabbler

I think you are both brave and ambitious for taking on this project!  Once working you will love it!


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## markba633csi

Very cool hunk of stuff. You'll have fun and get very messy
-M


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## Charlieman22

Thanks gents,
Appreciate everyone checking in to see the circus start.


mikey said:


> Free?


I had just watched some YouTuber buy a Bridgeport in spectacular condition.
Someone just called him and said - hey - do you want this?
The (chromed...) ways looked like someone had scraped them in the factory that morning.
And I thought - that never happens to me!
When this this fell in to my lap.
 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 



Dabbler said:


> I think you are both brave and ambitious for taking on this rpoject! Once working you will love it!


Something half the size woulda been a wee bit easier to tackle...


matthewsx said:


> If it has the servos it may be easier to wire manual controls for the drives, as opposed to fitting hand wheels. I think that would be one step along the CNC path rather than taking a detour.
> 
> John



This is probably as good a place to start as any.
There was some discussion on this as I was laying out phase II (CNC)
The challenge is - the controller has lost its parameters - which I am told is like dementia.
So while it has the (analog) drives - I don't think I can just hook up a digital dial to them.
Open for debate if I am misunderstanding - but think that's the case.
Additionally - I would like to be able to turn the wheels by hand - even if it becomes full CNC.
75% of what I do might still be manual.
I don't have enough experience to know yet.

So the plan currently is:
1.  See if I can engineer a means to put some wheels on it.  The timing belt cogs are accessible for all of the screws.  I don't have a working mill... so I was trying to come up with an off the shelf solution.  Was thinking:
Use the face of the timing belt cog: 
	

		
			
		

		
	



And then get a keyed flange - which happily - it turned out is an actual thing.
	

		
			
		

		
	



Once I've mounted this to the face of the cog (assuming there is enough meat to do that) then I can use a keyed shaft and a hand wheel.  I will have to boar a hole in the cover - and I'd like to make it look nice - so need to think about how I'm going to do that.  Chime in if you guys hate it - right now it's my leading candidate for solving.

While the wheels would remain with the addition of CNC, a DRO would not.
But... I'm looking at an inexpensive DRO/magnetic strip/reader combo that would allow me to have manual with a means to measure - and put me in business.

Below - my current set up for cutting chips...


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## Charlieman22

That one slipped away a bit quickly.
Question for the crowd.
I'm partial to the look of the polished steel BP style handles.
There is no Z crank either - so I need to find one of those.
Y crank will need to not castrate me when I add power feed - but could be exchanged then if I cant find a nice wheel style with knob.
Does anyone have a favorite brand or a good place to get reasonably priced handles that fit above description?


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## JimDawson

Nice Central Pneumatic ''mill''    



Charlieman22 said:


> That one slipped away a bit quickly.
> Question for the crowd.
> I'm partial to the look of the polished steel BP style handles.
> There is no Z crank either - so I need to find one of those.
> Y crank will need to not castrate me when I add power feed - but could be exchanged then if I cant find a nice wheel style with knob.
> Does anyone have a favorite brand or a good place to get reasonably priced handles that fit above description?



I think this one is actually aluminum, just powder coated black





						Amazon.com: uxcell a13110700ux0953 16 mm x 150 mm Inside Ripple Hand Wheel Black w Folding Revolving Handle : Industrial & Scientific
					

Buy uxcell a13110700ux0953 16 mm x 150 mm Inside Ripple Hand Wheel Black w Folding Revolving Handle: Hand Wheels - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases



					www.amazon.com


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## extropic

Charlieman22 said:


> Was thinking: Use the face of the timing belt cog:



Alternative attachment of handwheel(s):
Leave the pully(s) alone. Remove the nut from the end of the shaft. fabricate a stub shaft with internal thread to replace the nut.
Screw the stub shaft onto the leadscrew. Lock (jam) the stub shaft to the leadscrew by means of a coaxial setscrew accessed via a through hole from hand wheel end of shaft. Include some features (flats or hex) on exposed stub shaft for a wrench.

Purchase handwheels with folding handle (or no handle). In CNC mode, a protruding handle is not friendly.









						McMaster-Carr
					

McMaster-Carr is the complete source for your plant with over 595,000 products. 98% of products ordered ship from stock and deliver same or next day.




					www.mcmaster.com


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## Charlieman22

extropic said:


> Alternative attachment of handwheel(s):
> Leave the pully(s) alone. Remove the nut from the end of the shaft. fabricate a stub shaft with internal thread to replace the nut.
> Screw the stub shaft onto the leadscrew. Lock (jam) the stub shaft to the leadscrew by means of a coaxial setscrew accessed via a through hole from hand wheel end of shaft. Include some features (flats or hex) on exposed stub shaft for a wrench.


That would be slick - and it would ensure I was dead nuts center on the shaft.
It's better - no doubt - I'm just not sure how I would execute it without a lathe.
(I'm going to need to find a free lathe!)
I would likely need to turn down the stub shaft so that it fit the ID of the handle - while keeping enough beef to replace the nut on the screw.
But there is clearly room for this solution - and it would be super slick.


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## Papa Charlie

So, did I miss something, did you bring this home already or is that still in the plan?


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## extropic

Charlieman22 said:


> That would be slick - and it would ensure I was dead nuts center on the shaft.
> It's better - no doubt - I'm just not sure how I would execute it without a lathe.
> (I'm going to need to find a free lathe!)
> I would likely need to turn down the stub shaft so that it fit the ID of the handle - while keeping enough beef to replace the nut on the screw.
> But there is clearly room for this solution - and it would be super slick.


Incorporate some sort of seal (lip, o-ring, labyrinth or brush) where the shaft penetrates the drive cover(s). Chips in the cog belt = no good.

There is a sub-forum on H-M for requesting parts to be made.  Sketch up what you want and . . .









						CAN YOU MAKE SOMETHING FOR ME?
					

You need a part or some tooling. You can't or don't want to make it. Maybe someone here can do it for you.




					www.hobby-machinist.com


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## matthewsx

First, I would say to do whatever @JimDawson says, I know it seems like just putting handles on might be the easiest way but it might not for several reasons. Jim has done a ton of these control retrofits and will be able to steer you in the right direction.


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## Dabbler

OK in lieu of hand wheels, you could try what This Old Tony on youtube did: he made a box with 3 encoders, and they function as his hand wheels.
Here's his overview, and check out 17:38 for a description of his handwheel 'replacements'...


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## spumco

Keyless locking shaft coupling.  *NO MACHINING.*





Find one that has an OD the same as your pulley ID, and stick a handwheel shaft inside.  Tighten bolts, and it expands/contract and locks the handwheel shaft to the pulley.

Check out Fenner Drives for an overview of types.

Many varieties, some are self-aligning.  Available on ebay.


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## JimDawson

extropic said:


> Alternative attachment of handwheel(s):
> Leave the pully(s) alone. Remove the nut from the end of the shaft. fabricate a stub shaft with internal thread to replace the nut.
> Screw the stub shaft onto the leadscrew. Lock (jam) the stub shaft to the leadscrew by means of a coaxial setscrew accessed via a through hole from hand wheel end of shaft. Include some features (flats or hex) on exposed stub shaft for a wrench.
> 
> Purchase handwheels with folding handle (or no handle). In CNC mode, a protruding handle is not friendly.



This is the really simple way to do it.  ^^^^^^^^  My machine handwheels are attached by a similar method.

I just bored the handwheel to be a tight slip fit on the shaft, and turned the OD of the flange to fit a set collar.  Tighten the set collar, it is just held with a friction fit, just squeezes the handwheel hub onto the shaft.  Have not had a problem with them coming loose.  Actually works the same as that hub that @spumco shows above but only costs a few $.  Both require machining so that part of it is a wash.


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## Charlieman22

Papa Charlie said:


> So, did I miss something, did you bring this home already or is that still in the plan?


Ha - no - it comes home anytime between tomorrow and Friday.  Spare time on my hands on a Sunday and the desire to get some early input from the crowed prompted me to go ahead and post.  Plus, now, what ever foolishness I get into on the move - you guys can stand on the side line and enjoy.


Dabbler said:


> OK in lieu of hand wheels, you could try what This Old Tony on youtube did: he made a box with 3 encoders, and they function as his hand wheels.
> Here's his overview, and check out 17:38 for a description of his handwheel 'replacements'...


Oh, man, I love TOT.  
If my control box was talking to my drives - I would probably do this just for the pure ease - in the short run.
And I admittedly have only turned the crank on a mill 3 times in my life - two of which were last week looking at mills...
But I would like to have a manual handle in the end.
I like the feeling and the precision of moving the table like this.
Maybe I will find it useless one day - but going in - manually operable is my goal if I can.


matthewsx said:


> First, I would say to do whatever @JimDawson says, I know it seems like just putting handles on might be the easiest way but it might not for several reasons. Jim has done a ton of these control retrofits and will be able to steer you in the right direction.


Oh - without Jim's input - I wouldn't even be posting on the right forum...


extropic said:


> Incorporate some sort of seal (lip, o-ring, labyrinth or brush) where the shaft penetrates the drive cover(s). Chips in the cog belt = no good.
> 
> There is a sub-forum on H-M for requesting parts to be made. Sketch up what you want and . . .


Good head's up on both fronts.  Much appreciated.


spumco said:


> Find one that has an OD the same as your pulley ID, and stick a handwheel shaft inside. Tighten bolts, and it expands/contract and locks the handwheel shaft to the pulley.
> 
> Check out Fenner Drives for an overview of types.
> 
> Many varieties, some are self-aligning. Available on ebay.


Like concept - but not sure there will be space for the lock device between OD of screw's nut and pulley's ID.  Also - how would it lock to the pulley?  Just press in?


JimDawson said:


> This is the really simple way to do it. ^^^^^^^^ My machine handwheels are attached by a similar method.
> 
> I just bored the handwheel to be a tight slip fit on the shaft, and turned the OD of the flange to fit a set collar. Tighten the set collar, it is just held with a friction fit, just squeezes the handwheel hub onto the shaft. Have not had a problem with them coming loose. Actually works the same as that hub that @spumco shows above but only costs a few $. Both require machining so that part of it is a wash.


Jim - I read this twice - but couldn't quite decipher.
_I just bored the handwheel to be a tight slip fit on the shaft, - _CHECK
_turned the OD of the flange to fit a set collar._ - What is a set collar? (bracing for the tomatoes)
Can't quite vision this assembly - but would like to!


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## JimDawson

Charlieman22 said:


> im - I read this twice - but couldn't quite decipher.
> _I just bored the handwheel to be a tight slip fit on the shaft, - _CHECK
> _turned the OD of the flange to fit a set collar._ - What is a set collar? (bracing for the tomatoes)
> Can't quite vision this assembly - but would like to!



You made me get out of my chair and go out the the shop and tear my mill apart, took the better part of 2 minutes.    

Note: set collar, also called shaft collar.

This is my handwheel mount system.  There were originally a keyed bore and held with a set screw.  A really bad system for longevity, the keyways wallow out and things get sloppy.  Keyways in general are a bad system on a CNC machine, hence those lock collars above.  But anything that clamps onto the shaft is much better than a key and setscrew.  These have been trouble free for years now.

In place.  No keys or set screws, just held by the friction of the collar squeezing the hub onto the shaft



The end of the ball screw shaft with the stub spacer for the handwheel.  Yours would be an extended nut.




Set collar in place on the handwheel




And set collar removed from the handwheel hub.  I bushed the bore of the handwheel because it was wallowed and cracking out from flopping around on the shaft for quite a while.  You can see what the original OD of the handwheel hub was.


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## spumco

Charlieman22 said:


> Like concept - but not sure there will be space for the lock device between OD of screw's nut and pulley's ID. Also - how would it lock to the pulley? Just press in?


Keyless shaft couplings have a split ring on the OD and ID.  These rings have tapers that match the two drive rings (things with screws).  When you tighten the bolts, the end rings get closer together, which forces the OD ring out, and the ID ring in.  Expands and contracts at the same time.

If you can get a bit of shaft threaded to take the place of the existing nut, that'd be the way to go.  If a custom handwheel shaft thingie isn't an option for whatever the reason, the coupling I mentioned is a possibility.


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## Charlieman22

JimDawson said:


> You made me get out of my chair and go out the the shop and tear my mill apart, took the better part of 2 minutes


Snort laugh.  Your a good man.  Thanks - pictures worth a 1000 words sorta thing...  Now I get it.  Nice solution - and nice hand wheel!


spumco said:


> tighten the bolts, the end rings get closer together, which forces the OD ring out, and the ID ring in.


Ahhh!  got it.  


JimDawson said:


> Note: set collar, also called shaft collar.


Shaft collars!  why didn't you just say so!

Ok - some good ideas here.  I will take on board and should be able to solve.
Found these while I was searching the corners of the internet earlier today.
Thought they might look nice.
Perhaps I could use them to run a lip seal around the shaft as well to keep bad things out.
Wide one would be X.
Other Z.
Cast aluminum.
Will keep in bank until I get closer to determining what I am going to do about the communist gray my machine is coated in.  Enough to depress a man on a bad day of milling.


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## Charlieman22

Morning all.
Arrangements for pick up look to be for Wed. or Thurs.
Had a near miss on a lathe last night.
Morgan.  3 chucks.  Fully tooled. $600.  
Was the first to call - arranged to go pick it up - hopped in truck - drove 30 min - arrived and he said he just sold it to someone else...
Suspect I'm not the first to have one of those happen...
Frustrating of course - but other chances will arrive!

While I wait for the beast, I am prepping garage, and looking to fabricate a rolling stand.
This thing is gonna need to be beefy.
More on that in next post.
In mean time - looking for a bit of help.

My machine has no chuck of any kind.
*Brochure says it's an ISO 40.*
Would like to start searching for some used tooling - but in the dark.

Local add running:  https://losangeles.craigslist.org/lgb/tls/d/garden-grove-machine-shop-tools-for/7326386060.html
Is there anything there I "need"?
CAT 40, BT 40, sounds like my internet cable or British Telecom to me!
	

		
			
		

		
	



Welcome everyone's $.02 on basics I will want to outfit myself with.
As much specificity on fit as possible would be appreciated.
Am sure I will manage to do plenty of future collecting on this front.

Thanks!
-CM


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## Janderso

Charlieman22 said:


> Wife is of course, ecstatic...


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## Janderso

Charlieman22 said:


> Brochure says it's an ISO 40.


40 taper is very common.


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## Charlieman22

Janderso said:


> 40 taper is very common.


Well - that does seem like good news.
Embarrassingly - I'm so green - I don't know exactly how to get from the quill head (picture above) to an end mill.
I mean - I see collet holders and tool-less chucks that I imagine I am going to want - but...
They have codes and names, and Im not sure what sizes I would be best suited for.

That add I posted: https://losangeles.craigslist.org/lgb/tls/d/garden-grove-machine-shop-tools-for/7326386060.html  has some different "40" sized tools - but I could use a primer on what CAT vs BT vs I.S.O means, what is a subset of what, etc. if anyone wants to help educate me a bit.
Was of course quietly hoping there are certain things in that listing that would be "Perfect for you! Grab them!"...

Thanks - and glad the prior post elicited a chuckle.
Suspect many have been there...


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## JimDawson

Charlieman22 said:


> Local add running: https://losangeles.craigslist.org/lgb/tls/d/garden-grove-machine-shop-tools-for/7326386060.html
> Is there anything there I "need"?



You will need some tool holders, but not those.  For the most part you are going to want #40 to ER tool holders.

In the context of your machine, ISO, CAT, and BT tool holders are interchangeable.


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## Janderso

I bought a ER-40 tool holder with NT30. The collets (size range) fit into the tool holder allowing me to use any end mill within the collet range.

This is for your taper


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## Charlieman22

Ok you guys.
Just enough finger grips for me to figure out what's what.
Thank you.

What I am understanding:
 - The taper of my quill is 40T - I need a tool holder that fits.  
 - ER refers to the other end of the tool holder where the collet go.
 - I should be searching for a set of ER collets and end mills - new or used - as a start.
Suspect some of you may have just placed your face in your palm...
Steep curve for me.

*Assuming I have above correct, questions I'm still trying to get head around:*
 - From the looks of my spindle - there are two "dogs" that poke out and a threaded area for some kind of cap?
 - Do all "40" tool holders match the dogs of my spindle - or do I need to search for NT40 or CAT40 or the like?
 - If I set a few craigslist alerts, should I use other synonyms for "tool holder" ?


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## Janderso

Charlieman22 said:


> Ok you guys.
> Just enough finger grips for me to figure out what's what.
> Thank you.
> 
> What I am understanding:
> - The taper of my quill is 40T - I need a tool holder that fits.
> - ER refers to the other end of the tool holder where the collet go.
> - I should be searching for a set of ER collets and end mills - new or used - as a start.
> Suspect some of you may have just placed your face in your palm...
> Steep curve for me.
> 
> *Assuming I have above correct, questions I'm still trying to get head around:*
> - From the looks of my spindle - there are two "dogs" that poke out and a threaded area for some kind of cap?
> - Do all "40" tool holders match the dogs of my spindle - or do I need to search for NT40 or CAT40 or the like?
> - If I set a few craigslist alerts, should I use other synonyms for "tool holder" ?
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 367230


Hey,
It wasn't very long ago when I was asking the same questions.
If you are interested and have a passion to learn, you'll be coming along very quickly.
Once you spend your first $50,000 in the hobby, you'll have a much better handle on how to roll.
It's best not to take me seriously.


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## extropic

JimDawson said:


> You will need some tool holders, but not those.  For the most part you are going to want #40 to ER tool holders.
> 
> *In the context of your machine, ISO, CAT, and BT tool holders are interchangeable.*



That isn't precisely true.

The subject is covered, ad nauseum, on the web.

My understanding is, you could use either of those standards in an ISO40 spindle if you also exchange the drawbar.
In other words, the drawbar designed to pull one holder will not work on another.

Linked is a compilation of information on various spindle tapers.



			Machine Tool Shanks (Tapers)


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## extropic

Excellent picture there @Charlieman22.

I'm not concerning myself with the end of the devise that holds the end mill (or other tool), except to say that ER is a good place to start, but with the opposite end that is pulled into the taper by the drawbar.

The pictured holder includes a "pull stud" which would be gripped and pulled by a drawbar typically used in a machining center with an automatic tool changer. The WEBB in question does not have an automatic tool changer and I suspect it does not use pull studs.

With the pull stud removed, the holder has threads where a threaded drawbar can be mated to pull it into the taper. Some different holder specs have different threads and lengths. You would need a draw bar with the correct thread and of the correct length to pull different holders.


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## JimDawson

extropic said:


> That isn't precisely true.
> 
> The subject is covered, ad nauseum, on the web.
> 
> My understanding is, you could use either of those standards in an ISO40 spindle if you also exchange the drawbar.
> In other words, the drawbar designed to pull one holder will not work on another.
> 
> Linked is a compilation of information on various spindle tapers.
> 
> 
> 
> Machine Tool Shanks (Tapers)



I stand corrected,  It looks like the difference is a m16x2 thread for the ISO, vs. a 5/8 -11 thread for the CAT, BT, and NT.


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## Papa Charlie

On the Collet end, there are different ER sizes, Size 40 which identies the outter dimensions of the collet would be a great place to start, then find a set of ER40 Collets that cover a reasonable range of tools that you can insert into them. 

Here is a chart that shows the different collet sizes and the range of the tool they can hold. You can find a world of information on the web but this will give you a good range.

There are other types of collets, but the ER collets have a distinct advantage in that they have a slit in the front and back of the collet. This allows the collet to close on the held part evenly from both the front and back. Other types of collets only have the slit at one end. With those, as you clamp them down they only grasp the at the front of the collet and will get looser towards the back. This get worse the small the part is from the optimum holding size.




Here is some more reading on Collets that I think is really well done.









						COLLETS 101 | Centaur Precision Tools
					

Collets 101 is a comprehensive guide covering 5 popular collet series: ER, TG, DA, AF, and RDO; along with care instructions, uses, terminology, dimensions, TIR




					centaurtools.com


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## Charlieman22

extropic said:


> In other words, the drawbar designed to pull one holder will not work on another.


Clear.
I think I am going to start a list of "Milling Facts" that I can reference - this would be on there.

I'll have a read of that link.  Very helpful.


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## Charlieman22

JimDawson said:


> It looks like the difference is a m16x2 thread for the ISO, vs. a 5/8 -11 thread for the CAT, BT, and NT.


Put this on my Milling Facts list.  Tks.


Papa Charlie said:


> Here is some more reading on Collets that I think is really well done.


Super.  Thanks Charlie.


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## extropic

To put a finer point on it, notice that the NMTB, ISO R 297-2583, DIN 2080 and similar holders are extended at drawbar end.

On the other hand, the CAT, CV, V-Flange and similar end at the small end of the taper (intended for use with pull studs).

To interchange, using threaded drawbars, different threads and different length drawbars are required in some cases.

I've read that there are some differences in the drive slots (in the flange) but I don't know the specifics. My impression is that the slot/lug differences are not a big problem and/or simple to accommodate.


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## spumco

extropic said:


> To interchange, using threaded drawbars, different threads and different length drawbars are required in some cases.


This.

Before you jump in to the deep end, wait to get it home and then pull the drawbar out.  Measure the threads - if it's a 5/8-11 then you have an NT40 taper.  Also known as "NMTB40", "NST40" tapers.

The NT40 has a straight portion at the end that closely fits a cylindrical portion of the spindle ID.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_taper#NMTB_taper_family

ISO40 is very similar with a straight section for the drawbar, but has a thread for a metric drawbar.

If it's not 5/8-11, report back and the hive mind will help you figure out what it is.

You can get/make a drawbar that will thread in to a CAT40 or BT40 holder, but NT40 holders are common enough there's not much point in having to swap drawbars.  Especially since it already has a power drawbar actuator on it.

Once you get the drawbar measured and are fairly sure you have an NT40 taper spindle, buy ONE tool holder and see if it fits and the drawbar does what its supposed to do (i.e. tighten up and lock the holder in to the spindle).

The drive dogs in the photo are very narrow - you shouldn't have any issue with standard NT40 holder slots engaging the dogs properly.  You really don't need the dogs until you start fooling around with 4" shell mills in steel.

After you verify the single holder fits, then you can spend all the money in the world on more holders.  It'll feel like it anyway

Check the Webb brochure... I've highlighted the spindle specs.



-R


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## Charlieman22

Thanks gents.
Ok - I have a bit more depth on both spindle and drawbar now.
Will have a close look and report back - once I have the machine.

Now - about that stand.
This machine is unreasonably heavy.
I got a flavor of what it is going to be like to work with it today - while starting my rolling stand build.

My welding has been focused on cast aluminum - that while tricky to weld - is fairy easy to match strength of parent material.
The stand for a 4K# beast is another matter all together.

Had a good snoop around and saw a number of stands - mostly for Bridgeport types.
Decided I want to try and avoid creating a catch bin for chips and oil around the base - so designed something a little different.

Note to self: I hate hot rolled steel.

Truck loaded up - first inkling of just how heavy this thing was going to be.
	

		
			
		

		
	




Bandsaw wouldn't fit width - so had to stand perpendicular.
	

		
			
		

		
	



As far as it would cut in one direction as neck hit my work - so I had to flip it.
	

		
			
		

		
	



Note no witness line between the two cuts from separate directions.  I think it is safe to say, that for as long as I am part of this community, I am likely never going to execute a cut better than getting this one perfectly straight with my wonky bandsaw.  




All the parts cut/descaled/beveled - to give my 220 amp welder any chance of penetrating properly.
	

		
			
		

		
	




Sample of the outcome.  I welded inside and out.  Should be quite strong.
	

		
			
		

		
	




Beauty shot - this is the front frame.  Its no light weight.  There will be a matching one at the back - and they will be connected by a central beam.  The casters are rated at 1200lbs ea - and will elevate the base about 1" from the floor.  They are 7" wheels - so it should move around well enough.

The leveling feet will be kept, and during normal operation - the machine will rest on these - and the wheels will be elevated.  
The worst part is still to come - I have to drill this 5/16" material - and... I don't have a mill.
Should wrap up tomorrow - and then pick up the machine on Thursday.

Cheers.
-CM


----------



## Papa Charlie

Nice work.

I am not so sure that you need the central beam, the machine itself will be your central beam once you bolt these two stands to the base. Not that it will hurt anything, just add more weight and use more material. Your weak point will be the welds on the wheel supports, that is where you will have the greatest stresses trying to pull it apart.

Regardless of with or without the central brace, I really like the design and concept.


----------



## Charlieman22

Thanks Papa Charlie.
It was intended to be minimalist - you know - 200lbs of minimalist!
I agree - stresses will be concentrated at the welds and double beam may be overkill.
Perhaps single central will be final result.

Unfortunately - I am in the "there's a whole in the bucket" situation.
Drilling the holes will be an absolute bear.
I measured for them with the Mill on the ground - in a parking lot - with all sorts of stuff in my way.
Hope I got it right.

Plan to create 4 slots - two perpendicular, two horizontal - so I can have some wiggle room on fitting it up.
This is the kind fo drilling exercise that was part of my desire to have a mill.

Below - the mill's base.
I'll add small extensions front and rear of the stand to hold the feet.


----------



## mattthemuppet2

best way I've found of drilling a hole on location with a hand drill (no drill press?) is a deep prick punch, then a short thin drill (eg. 1/16") and then your on size drill. The big drill will follow the small hole quite nicely. If you need a slot, drill 2 holes so they just or not quite overlap then use a carbide burr or a file to make the straight sides.

For your stand, I'd suggest a bit of bracing in those side wings. I never cease to be amazed by how much metal can move, plus I'm a belt and braces (suspenders for you lot) kind of guy


----------



## Charlieman22

A Brit in Texas typing on a machinist forum?
Gracious - if I made a Venn diagram - your circle would have only one person in it.
I considered boxing in the back side of the seams.
I'd really like to avoid making a "pocket" for chips and oil by gusseting the top.

One thing I have working for me, the machine will not sit on the wheels unless I am moving it.
So only the main beam will cary the load when its in use, and the welds will not be in play.
I am using some high tech FEA on the design ( Feel & Eye Approximation) to determine strength.

However - I will set it up so that catastrophic failure would look like no more than an inch of drop - with outrigger that would not allow the machine to fall over.
I'll post some more pics as I go to make it more clear.
Discussion has been helpful for me to refine my plan.
Thanks for weighing inI


----------



## Papa Charlie

You can eliminate a lot of the hole placement concern by using the two pieces independently (Without the central brace). That way you only need to worry about the distance between the holes, side to side.

If it were me, I would reduce or eliminate the need for slotting as much as you can, as I feel that it weakens the structure. Maybe not appreciably but all that weight will be isolated on four points as there appears to be pads on the mill base (not the adjustments), that will be applying all the weight. Another reason why the central brace will not really do anything.


----------



## Charlieman22

PC,
Thanks!
Had to think about it.
If I let the machine act as the beam - it will certainly provide all the stiffness I need.
However - The issue(s) that might not be clear from what I shared is:

The casters are swivel.  
If I tried to stand on a single one of the cross members - I wouldn't be able to balance on it and the feeling would be of a knife edge.
It would want to rotate one way or the other out form under me.
Making this worse, the casters are offset and when they swivel, it will change which way the beam wants to rotate in a snap.
This rotational force will be carried entirely by the bolt if I don't add a beam between the cross members to stabilize them.

That said - I will have no choice on first assembly.
Getting fore aft and side to side nailed on a machine with a cast base - and probably hand drilled holes - will be nearly impossible.
Agreed.
Instead - I will try and assemble the cross members on - then cut and weld on the beams in perfect size - if possible...

Worked late last night - to get it ready for today.
Project is kicking my rear and I don't even have the machine yet.
For my sanity - rented a mag drill.
Wholly
cow - is that what milling is like compared to drilling?!
So nice!

Below:
 - Won't miss working on the floor... (managed to match drill to my scooter tho!)
 - Lots of holes drilled.  Made it a breeze (relatively)
 - Gratuitous shot of more welding - because the prior picture makes it look Iike I might have been drunk...


----------



## Papa Charlie

@Charlieman22 

Well, the additional support will not hurt you in any measure. Was just trying to save you some steps and material.

You probably already have this covered, but be sure to have large heavy duty washers to put on both ends of your bolts to attached the carriage to the mill.

I am excited for you. While the mill will take some work to bring up to speed, it will make for a great addition to your shop.


----------



## mattthemuppet2

Charlieman22 said:


> A Brit in Texas typing on a machinist forum?
> Gracious - if I made a Venn diagram - your circle would have only one person in it.
> I considered boxing in the back side of the seams.
> I'd really like to avoid making a "pocket" for chips and oil by gusseting the top.
> 
> One thing I have working for me, the machine will not sit on the wheels unless I am moving it.
> So only the main beam will cary the load when its in use, and the welds will not be in play.
> I am using some high tech FEA on the design ( Feel & Eye Approximation) to determine strength.
> 
> However - I will set it up so that catastrophic failure would look like no more than an inch of drop - with outrigger that would not allow the machine to fall over.
> I'll post some more pics as I go to make it more clear.
> Discussion has been helpful for me to refine my plan.
> Thanks for weighing inI



I'm as rare as a snowflake in south Texas, oh wait... 

As for reinforcements, I just meant an inside gusset or two to resist the spreading or compression of those joints. Might well not be necessary, but they'll be much easier to add now than later!


----------



## Charlieman22

Papa Charlie said:


> Well, the additional support will not hurt you in any measure. Was just trying to save you some steps and material.
> 
> You probably already have this covered, but be sure to have large heavy duty washers to put on both ends of your bolts to attached the carriage to the mill.
> 
> I am excited for you. While the mill will take some work to bring up to speed, it will make for a great addition to your shop.


Papa Charlie - thanks for that - and the good ideas.  I think I am going to try and go with a single beam - and headed off now to hunt for hardware that's appropriate.  Much appreciated.


mattthemuppet2 said:


> As for reinforcements, I just meant an inside gusset or two to resist the spreading or compression of those joints. Might well not be necessary, but they'll be much easier to add now than later!


Good thought.  Racing against time - pick up is tomorrow.  Still not ready!  Should have filled all these shenanigans.  Fun.


----------



## Charlieman22

Well, the stand(s) are ready.
I appreciate the good input and challenges.
Was helpful.

I have a truck with a trailer parked out front, and tomorrow is D Day.
Knuckles are cut.
Back is sore.
Beer is cold.

To end my night, I had a tiny metal splinter find its way in to my foot.
I'm sure I'm not the first...
The damn thing was almost invisible to the eye - but not to the mind.  Ouch.
Unable to see it like a normal splinter - I pulled out my $30 electronic microscope.
Do you guys have one of these?
I use it for everything - they are -  incredible.
When I start milling - I will use it to show some detail - and you guys can tell me what I am doing wrong.
Smooth surfaces look like the moon surface.

Below a few pictures on the eve of pick up for your viewing pleasure.


Current face milling technique:
	

		
			
		

		
	





Face mill tools.  I have a bunch already.
	

		
			
		

		
	




And of course - the rolling stand(s).  Just about complete.
Plan is to cut some angles on the leveling feet extensions/ prime/ install.


----------



## spumco

Workbench is fantastic, by the way.

You don't have a mill yet, but everone who does has to deal with chips/swarf collecting everywhere.  The U-shaped leveling tabs will turn in to chip buckets and be a pain to clean out when oily, sticky chips seem to weld themselves in every crevice.

If you own a 3D printer (or know someone who does), a friction-fit cover/shroud for the tabs would be pretty slick.  Maybe even taper the top a bit.

I don't have a 3D printer myself, but that sort of thing - dumb little non-structural bits - makes me seriously thing about getting one.  Fabricating a cover from sheet metal or even plastic sheet would take a while.  Drawing up something and sending it to the printer would be significantly less work.


----------



## Charlieman22

spumco said:


> Workbench is fantastic, by the way.
> 
> You don't have a mill yet, but everone who does has to deal with chips/swarf collecting everywhere.  The U-shaped leveling tabs will turn in to chip buckets and be a pain to clean out when oily, sticky chips seem to weld themselves in every crevice.
> 
> If you own a 3D printer (or know someone who does), a friction-fit cover/shroud for the tabs would be pretty slick.  Maybe even taper the top a bit.
> 
> I don't have a 3D printer myself, but that sort of thing - dumb little non-structural bits - makes me seriously thing about getting one.  Fabricating a cover from sheet metal or even plastic sheet would take a while.  Drawing up something and sending it to the printer would be significantly less work.


Excellent idea.  
It could have a central stem that had a female end that fit over the foot stem.  
I tried to minimize any "catch" areas.  
I am considering how I might control oil and swarf I my garage as well.
No easy task I'm sure.

Off to load truck.  Pictures at 11:00.


----------



## Papa Charlie




----------



## Charlieman22

It's home.
Well - its in the street in front of my home.
It's close.  Last 40 feet may be the toughest though.

Huge effort this week has me worn out.
The sheer weight/scale has come to be appreciated.

Drove out to pick it up today.
They had a 5000 lb fork lift - and it still struggled at times.
The machine is top and side heavy - with it's giant second head poking out of its shoulder.

Meanwhile - my pesky paying job needed was demanding my attention - so the whole week was a juggle.
This morning, last minute - I put a coat of white on the stand(s), threw them in the back of the truck to cure - and headed off to get the mill.
The guys who gave it to me were superb.
One of them worked with me for 5 hours and operated a fork to help us get the base mounted.
Refused to take a dime.

Next up - power wash - then I have to consider how I am going to get it in the garage.
Got a real sense of just how top heavy these things are.  Kinda crazy.

Painted last minute
	

		
			
		

		
	




Let it cure while I drove
	

		
			
		

		
	



.
Mid installation. Full circus.



3 hours later - pit stopped for some fuel (for myself) as that was a physical day.



Home - 2 hours to get back - kept it steady and had it well tied down.  Will stay parked here tonight.


----------



## Papa Charlie

Nice unit. Your stand turned out great. While you are loaded on the trailer, might as well head to the car wash and clean her up before you unload.

Looking forward to watching you bring her back to life. Congrats on the new tool.


----------



## mattthemuppet2

that's fabulous, congratulations! Those stands/ risers look fabulous, good call on the air curing too  Good on those guys too, hope you left them something to drink afterwards.

What's the plan for getting it off the trailer?


----------



## Charlieman22

Papa Charlie said:


> Nice unit. Your stand turned out great. While you are loaded on the trailer, might as well head to the car wash and clean her up before you unload.
> 
> Looking forward to watching you bring her back to life. Congrats on the new tool.


Great minds...
dong some triage first with a wire brush, scraper, and WD 40 as my soap.
Thanks!


mattthemuppet2 said:


> that's fabulous, congratulations! Those stands/ risers look fabulous, good call on the air curing too  Good on those guys too, hope you left them something to drink afterwards.
> 
> What's the plan for getting it off the trailer?


Agreed!  I owe those guys a beer - and they invited me back down for... a helicopter ride.
The old man is apparently a world renown expert in one of Instron helicopters.
I should have shot more pics.
The place from the outside looked like home of the Manson family.
But when you get to the barn/hanger around back - they have some cool stuff.
When we got the mill loaded - I helped them roll a few helicopters around to re-arrange.
You just can't write this stuff.

Trailer unload.  Think I am going to rig up some outriggers like a walker - to keep it from being able to tilt - then use a pallet jack - or just take out the wood and roll it right off (its a drop bed trailer).

*Need advice*
Base is hollowed out.
Think it might be as a reservoir for cooling fluid.
Mostly - its just a rats nest of dirt and old shavings.
Any ideas on how to clean out - is there a drain plug normally?!
Thinking about just boring a hole in the bottom so it will drain - then using a plug to cap it.
All comers welcome!
-CM


----------



## matthewsx

I'd say fill it with water if you haven't already and see if there's a drain. If none you could use a pressure washer with an angled tip, if it were me I'd try to avoid drilling new holes.


----------



## JimDawson

Charlieman22 said:


> Trailer unload. Think I am going to rig up some outriggers like a walker - to keep it from being able to tilt - then use a pallet jack - or just take out the wood and roll it right off (its a drop bed trailer).



We unloaded one like that (on wheels) off of a drop deck.  Controlled the decent down the ramp with a come-a-long.  That 2'' drop on the ramp looks like a 10 ft drop when you have a top heavy machine.  Get some help to do it.
About the same size machine






> *Need advice*
> Base is hollowed out.
> Think it might be as a reservoir for cooling fluid.
> Mostly - its just a rats nest of dirt and old shavings.
> Any ideas on how to clean out - is there a drain plug normally?!
> Thinking about just boring a hole in the bottom so it will drain - then using a plug to cap it.
> All comers welcome!
> -CM


Yes, it is a coolant reservoir, but not the best design.  No real access for cleanout.

Shop vac would most likely be the best option.

I don't think there is a drain plug.

Or you could just leave it as is, you are really not going to use it anyway.  Flood coolant on that machine is useless.


----------



## Papa Charlie

There isn't a drain plug and I think you will find that what ever is in there, if liquid is a very small volume of the total. Most will be sludge, chips and just plain nasty stuff. If you haven't seen it done, take a look at Steve Summers YouTube of him cleaning out the sump on his project mill.

Drilling a hole will do you no good except for make more work for yourself. You should have a couple of screens in the top of the base that come out to gain some access. On one of the sides in the rear behind one of the panels you will find the pump which should also be removed for cleaning and may, depending on the design allow for some additional access. Some mills have a small panel you can remove that give you additional access.

Any way you look at it, once they have got to this stage, they are a PIA to clean out. A putty knife and patience will serve you better than anything. Once you get the bulk of the material out. You can use some kerosene to dilute what is left and vacuum it out. May take several flushes to get it clean.

I will try to find that episode of Steve's to watch. There are other YouTubers that have gone through this process as well.


----------



## matthewsx

Don’t know if I’d use a vacuum if you’ve put kero in there.


----------



## Charlieman22

Thanks all!
Coming along nicely.
Off to car wash shortly.

Papa Charlie had it right.
There was a panel at the back - giving full access to the base.
Put on some gloves and used a putty knife to remove a lifetimes slurry of slag.
Not my favorite job so far...

Question on the table top T slots.
Anyone want to give their favorite means to attack?
Lots of crud in there.
Some chips that appear welded in place in areas - or perhaps they are strikes with an end mill.
I don't know yet.
Feels like a small wire wheel with fine bristles - if there was one that size - would be a means.

Any ideas?


----------



## JimDawson

Normally a scraper and a shop vac is the way I do it. 






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----------



## Papa Charlie

Once you get past a lot of the cleaning, you will want to change all the gear oil. There are fittings that look like grease fittings but they are oiler fittings. Too often people have used them to add grease. Yours may be no different. That requires removing the tubes and cleaning the compartments that are fed by the oil. The tubes are generally a small plastic tube that can be cleaned out pretty easily. 

I would take a few minutes and watch some of Steve Summers videos on YouTube. He has done a pretty good job of opening up old mills and cleaning out years of neglect and abuse. A great reference, regardless of the make of the machine. The concepts behind these machines are pretty common so applicable lessons to be learned. Of course there are many others that you can draw from. I enjoy watching Steve and I like the work he does. Here is a link to the newest (old) piece of equipment he acquired. There are a series of videos on the cleaning and lubricant replacements.


----------



## Charlieman22

Thanks gents.


matthewsx said:


> Don’t know if I’d use a vacuum if you’ve put kero in there.


You've got a point... steered clear of kero - went with some blue degreaser and power washer...  Neighbors are already wondering what the hell that thing is parked in front of the house - adding a burning shop vac just seems gratuitous.  Agreed.


JimDawson said:


> That 2'' drop on the ramp looks like a 10 ft drop when you have a top heavy machine. Get some help to do it.


I hear you.
Got a taste of how top heavy these things are - when we were loading it on the trailer. 
Gonna get it in position and then think hard about how to traverse off trailer and in to garage. 
Tks.


matthewsx said:


> I'd say fill it with water if you haven't already and see if there's a drain. If none you could use a pressure washer with an angled tip, if it were me I'd try to avoid drilling new holes.


Well - you were in good company on that one with Papa Charlie.
And I have used a shop vac - but honestly - its a PIA.
At some point - that thing needs a drain!


JimDawson said:


> Normally a scraper and a shop vac is the way I do it.


Ok - didn't know these existed - tho I really think a wire wheel if right sized could do wonders.  I opted for a Dremel with some scotch brite wheels.  It was tedious - but table is coming along nicely.


Papa Charlie said:


> I would take a few minutes and watch some of Steve Summers videos on YouTube.


Thanks for that.  Looks like he has some good stuff - and I hadn't found him before your tip.  I'll dive in and watch a few. Appreciate it.

In the end - I used a pressure washer out front of my house - for the find work - and made two trips to the car wash for the heavy stuff.
It's a handful backing that thing out of a washing bay and into traffic lanes to exit...
Twice.

In the rush - totally failed to shoot pics of the before on the knee - but I got inside and just blasted 20 years of stuff out. 
One casted sectioned crevice at a time.  
Got a good look at the screws and ways.  
Everything looks nice.

Cleaned and polished as I went - then blew dry with air and coated with WD 40 as Jim had suggested.
Feel pretty good about where I got it to over two days of cleaning.

Couple pictures just for the fun of it below.
Tomorrow - I'll post some detail pics so everyone can see the condition we are starting with.
Plan is to finally snake it into the driveway and look at the unloading conditions.

-CM
This twice
	

		
			
		

		
	




With some of this:
	

		
			
		

		
	




And plenty of that:


----------



## Papa Charlie

One advantage of the path you have chosen, by the time you are done you will know more about this machine than you could ever know about a brand new machine. 

Looking forward to watching the progress.


----------



## Charlieman22




----------



## extropic

Very Good. That's a relief.

It seemed to roll more freely than I expected.

How tall is the machine as it sits?


----------



## Charlieman22

extropic said:


> Very Good. That's a relief.
> 
> It seemed to roll more freely than I expected.
> 
> How tall is the machine as it sits?


Thanks -You're not kidding! (relief).
Opted not to bring help - seemed like a heck of an ask for someone to give up their entire Memorial Day.
Also wasn't sure how stable it would be - and didnt want to bring someone in without knowing the risk.

If you notice at the start of the video - I have the front to wheels already down.
I had the trailer at a negative incline - and had to actually pull it to that position.
Then - just before I shot that video - I raised the trailer bed so it was all angled down hill.

It was a bear of a job over all.
The trailer bed got hot from the sun, the wheels softened and deformed, and then bound on the frame I made.
Had to do some in-field surgery with a grinder to create more clearance.

Total height is ~93" - though it might be a few more with the power draw bar back on.
Once you get it moving - its pretty good to roll - but the first inch is best helped out with a pry bar.
Imperfect - but I will say - the rolling frame was a lifesaver.
Would never have tried that with a pallet jack - this thing's CG is off center with all those electronics boxes.


----------



## extropic

By "bound on the frame I made", do you mean the casters wouldn't swivel 360°?  Please elucidate.

I prefer using a pallet jack for moving things around on the shop floor, but I understand why your cradle was better for the move.

So many homes only have 7' tall garage doors. Thank goodness you've got enough clearance.

I suggest that you manually operate the X-Y and Knee to be sure any water (from pressure washing) on the ways is dried up ASAP.


----------



## sdelivery

I know the machine your talking about....you do Realize you have a FANUC Control right?
You need a parameter manual and to start entering some parameters.
Unless you have a bad chip on the mother board.
Forget the HANDLES and work on that control or sell the control to me!


----------



## sdelivery

I believe the assembled height is 89 inches and the weight aprox 4 times that of a Bridgeport lol
 I base this on using my cherry picker (3000lb.) Capacity.
I unloaded my 12 x 48 Bridgeport in three peices with said picker.
Column with knee, headstock and table/saddle. 
I had to disassemble the mill like yours to first get it in my seven foot doorway and second because it is soooooo heavy.
I separated the column from the bed, 6 bolts.
I found no drain for the coolant reservoir in the bed, that was the first thing to get cleaned out. 
I made my move with the parts in several trips as it was to much for my 2 ton capacity  truck, each load I took to the car wash before taking it to the shop.
The above style mill was built in Taiwan and sold in America under several brand names Hurco, Sharp, Yamatake and several others.


----------



## sdelivery

Mine uses an Allen Bradley 8400 m
Control and has died since the purchase, It lost the PAL, programmable application logic and this is worse than loosing the parameters but equally dead....


----------



## Charlieman22

extropic said:


> By "bound on the frame I made", do you mean the casters wouldn't swivel 360°? Please elucidate.


Close look at the photo below with green arrow, you can see the red urethane bulging in contact with the white edge when in the trailing position.
This was NOT going to roll...(had to Jack up the machine and trim back the white edge)


extropic said:


> I suggest that you manually operate the X-Y and Knee to be sure any water (from pressure washing) on the ways is dried up ASAP.


Thank you.  Did so last night before I called it a day.  Servos, X/Y/Z axis, and quill - but am concerned about the motor.
Not sure how I could address it's bearings?


sdelivery said:


> I know the machine your talking about....you do Realize you have a FANUC Control right?


Welcome aboard and thanks for weighing in.
Would love to hear your thoughts over all.

Briefly:
Yes on Fanuc.  Nice servos as well.  
Reader's digest of my situation/background:
New comer to milling.  Everything I know about it is on the past 7 pages as I have worked to clean up this machine.
Know even less about CNC - though Jim has been kind enough to help me wade through the basics.
Was shopping for a Bridgeport - when this was offered for free.
4X the weight...hahah -  have some experience now with that as well.  They were not fooling around with these castings.



sdelivery said:


> You need a parameter manual and to start entering some parameters.
> Unless you have a bad chip on the mother board.
> Forget the HANDLES and work on that control or sell the control to me!


My understanding from the guys that gave it to me is:  "it was "working fine until it "lost it's parameters".
My limited understanding of that is - the servos work and so does the motor - but the computer doesn't and *CANT *due to the "lost perimeters"
They can be restored?

My plan is/was to pull off the large boxes and rework the machine to be manual first, then get it operational as CNC using the existing servos and modern controls.
This would deliver me a much more compact machine for my garage - and a pretty spectacular machine of heft.

Do you want to expand on your thoughts on fixing the perimeter issue?
I'm green - but not incapable of following direction.
Alternatively - I am driving a truck across country in one month - so perhaps I should be selling the electronics in Ohio!


Few pics below:

General numeric servos.  Can I use a bench power supply to test?  Two sets of wires in to each one visible here - where/how would I apply power to test if this is possible?
	

		
			
		

		
	




Specs:
	

		
			
		

		
	




Table all nicely cleaned up



Leveled/ ways cleaned - and a little fancy polish of the old girl's Meehanite casting mark while I was at it.



20 years of chips and oil cleaned out of knee



Deserves a second picture



Reservoir also cleaned out and sprayed down



Caster locking up on my frame - you can see the rubber bulging from the pressure of the white frame.  Great brakes!




Rolled in to place.  Still some declutter to do in the garage - but nice to have it in.


----------



## Papa Charlie

The bearings can easily be replace. Bearing are almost universal. Once you pull them you can find a number on them. If that is unreadable, you can take measurements or take them to a bearing house and they can match them up.

You will find this being done in one of the series that Steve Summers has on his mill restoration.

Since you have pressure washed the unit. I would let it dry out, mostly the motor and electronics for a little while before I put any power to anything. Moisture finds its way into almost everything. Electricity and water are not a good mix.

But she is looking much better that she did. Don't get in too big of a hurry to remove or reconfigure her until you have done some research. You may be happily surprised what you have.


----------



## sdelivery

First and Foremost return to you purchased the machine and ask for ANY documentation thought might have, no matter how small or insignificant it might seem like. 
I would a fan to circulate air through the electronics, nothing special a cheap box fan.
If it only has lost parameters it is one thing if it has a faulty motherboard that is a different thing. Both are repairable issues.
Do not disconnect any wiring.
Let's get the control to come up first before disassembly.
One issue with converting a CNC to manual is the screws.
A manual machine uses acme thread and the cnc uses ball screws.
A ball screws moved and held in position by a  strong motor.
An end mill is capable of causing the table to move and hurt the operator damage the machine and the part.
You have an INCREDIBLE prize on your hands move slowly and take your time.


----------



## Charlieman22

sdelivery said:


> Let's get the control to come up first before disassembly.
> One issue with converting a CNC to manual is the screws.


My thinking was to order a VFD out of the gate - so I can power up the unit.
See what I can make spin.
Have my eye on this: 
https://www.amazon.com/Variable-Fre...eywords=10+hp+vfd&qid=1621649328&sr=8-11&th=1

But now I'm thinking: this machine was in a hanger behind a residential house.
Surely they had only 2 phase there - and had to convert to 3 phase.
I'm sure they might do that globally for the building's power - but there is a VFD on the back of my machine.
Suggests it was converting power locally.

So now I am trying to figure out: what was the VFD on my machine doing - if they had a central converter to 3 phase in the building?
And if they had 2 phase - why wouldn't the existing VFD work for my purposes?

Anyone wanna weigh in with some insights and educate me??
Current model bolted to back of machine is this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2642467967...-53200-19255-0&campid=5338722076&toolid=10001



sdelivery said:


> You have an INCREDIBLE prize on your hands move slowly and take your time.


Total stroke of good fortune!


Papa Charlie said:


> But she is looking much better that she did. Don't get in too big of a hurry to remove or reconfigure her until you have done some research. You may be happily surprised what you have.


Tough to temper my desire to have a working machine... but I hear you.  Still flipping stones as you can see from above.



Papa Charlie said:


> Since you have pressure washed the unit. I would let it dry out, mostly the motor and electronics for a little while before I put any power to anything. Moisture finds its way into almost everything. Electricity and water are not a good mix.


Good point.  Have all the doors open and using the dry cali air - no threat of it being connected in the immediate - as much as I would like to be able to!

VFD pic from when I picked it up:  what was this thing doing if not converting from 2 to 3 phase??


----------



## sdelivery

That probably is the "spindle drive"
Let's see some pictures of the electric cabinet.


----------



## sdelivery

Are there people you bought the machine from still there?
If so ask them if they have three phase power and was your machine wired to three phase when they had it.


----------



## sdelivery

Don't forget the pictures....


----------



## sdelivery

Oh It is possible they were using that to create three phase power but without seeing.....


----------



## JimDawson

That table is beautiful, not too often you find an old machine with a table that looks that good.  Looks really good sitting in your shop, looks like it belongs there.

As far as the VFD, it looks like it is sized properly to run with the spindle motor on a 240V single phase supply.

The GN Fanuc control.  Not sure why you would want to keep a Jurassic control when there are a lot of modern user friendly retrofit controls available.  I removed everything from my lathe that said Fanuc on it and replaced it because I didn't like the way it worked and the hassle just to load a program into it, and it was working fine.

I have ball screws on my machine and I have never had a problem using it manually.  If I'm cranking the X axis, I do rest my other hand on the Y handwheel and vise-versa.


----------



## Charlieman22

JimDawson said:


> That table is beautiful, not too often you find an old machine with a table that looks that good. Looks really good sitting in your shop, looks like it belongs there.


Thank you!  I went at the knee with brute force - but I tackled the table with some care using some learned skills from the two stroke world.  It was such a pleasure to see it come to life like that.



sdelivery said:


> That probably is the "spindle drive"
> Let's see some pictures of the electric cabinet.


Some prior discussion on electronics occurred - I'm reposting below so its all in one place.
This is a week area for me (some reading this now are thinking - THATS NOT THE ONLY AREA!)

But before I get to that, might be helpful to refocus the general plan/ reasoning.
- Would like to have manual control.  For my quick jobs in future - and I just plane like the idea of moving it manually
- *_I see value in getting up and running quickly._ Doesn't have to be pretty or full function.  Keeps my momentum and starts building experience.  Not to be underestimated.
- Have read a bit about the issue of ball screws being "too" easy to turn for manual.  Assumed some form of table lock could help if needed.

Phase I - get it operational manually.  Im ok with belts and cogs being exposed.  Doesn't have to be pretty.  Drill can be my power axis operation.
Phase II - CNC - with lower profile electronics.  Volume of electronics seems enormous currently.  Would like a lower profile solution.

Ok - now on to some specifics.
I'm going to order the DRO and a VFD - if I need it. 
Not sure I do??


JimDawson said:


> As far as the VFD, it looks like it is sized properly to run with the spindle motor on a 240V single phase supply.



The VFD has three conduits coming out of it.  2 go to the cabinet.  1 goes directly to the spindle motor...
Of the two that go in to the cabinet
- one has what appear to be low voltage wires that go to the main terminal strip (7) in pic below.
- The other has 4 heavy gauge red wires that go to the main disconnect and fuses - one to each.  This appears to me to be the power source for the VFD.





Ok - let's revisit the path to phase I - 'cause I am now kinda lost.
Goal here is to have a workable manual mill.
Can be a little redneck out of the gate.  I don't mind refining after I have operated a bit and understand it better.
So either nice handles I add - or I just turn the exposed cogs by hand or with drill (have been doing so for past few days).
Reasonably priced off shore DRO gives me my coordinates, plugs in to a 110 outlet on my wall.
Do we think this VFD could just be wired to have a 220 plug and... plug in giving me spindle power?
(I will need a handle for the quill lowering).

Secondarily - is there a means for me to test my servos with a bench power supply?  I posted a pic above showing the tag on them for specs.  I couldn't really make heads or tails of it.




sdelivery said:


> That probably is the "spindle drive"
> Let's see some pictures of the electric cabinet.


Ok - re-posted from elsewhere - with a few extra's thrown in for your viewing pleasure.
Basic components are circled.  I did that so I could get help identifying what's what.
Writing in red was from later posts that discussed what some components might be.
Below should be seen as general overview - to be confirmed.

#1 Reversing contactor for spindle motor. Remove, not needed. Has been replaced by the VFD
#2 Servo Drives. Keep, needs some slight modification to run on 120VAC single phase. I'll explain the 120VAC later
#3 Main disconnect & fuses. Keep
#4 Supplementary protection (fuses). Keep
#5 240/120 VAC Control Transformer. Keep.
(It was also proposed that it might be the servo drive transformer." I think that huge toroid feeds AC through the two black wires to #8, where it's rectified and smoothed with what looks like a gigantic cap to the right of the brown box. That transformer must weigh 40lbs.")
#5A Small contactor. Coolant pump relay?
#6 Servo drive power transformer. Remove, not needed.
(Some question on what this was)
#7 Terminal strip. Keep, always useful.
#7A Small transformer at bottom. Not sure what it's for, need further information.
(It was also proposed this might be the 120vac control transformer.)
#8 Ice cube relays. May be useful, depends on coil voltage.
#8A DC Power supply section for servo drives (behind the brown panel). See #2 above




Back of control panel:



Door of control panel when open:
	

		
			
		

		
	




main box better pics:


----------



## JimDawson

Charlieman22 said:


> Thank you!  I went at the knee with brute force - but I tackled the table with some care using some learned skills from the two stroke world.  It was such a pleasure to see it come to life like that.
> 
> 
> Some prior discussion on electronics occurred - I'm reposting below so its all in one place.
> This is a week area for me (some reading this now are thinking - THATS NOT THE ONLY AREA!)
> 
> But before I get to that, might be helpful to refocus the general plan/ reasoning.
> - Would like to have manual control.  For my quick jobs in future - and I just plane like the idea of moving it manually
> - *_I see value in getting up and running quickly._ Doesn't have to be pretty or full function.  Keeps my momentum and starts building experience.  Not to be underestimated.
> - Have read a bit about the issue of ball screws being "too" easy to turn for manual.  Assumed some form of table lock could help if needed.
> 
> Phase I - get it operational manually.  Im ok with belts and cogs being exposed.  Doesn't have to be pretty.  Drill can be my power axis operation.
> Phase II - CNC - with lower profile electronics.  Volume of electronics seems enormous currently.  Would like a lower profile solution.
> 
> Ok - now on to some specifics.
> I'm going to order the DRO and a VFD - if I need it.
> Not sure I do??


Let's get a picture of the data plate on the spindle motor, then a decision can be made on the VFD



> The VFD has three conduits coming out of it.  2 go to the cabinet.  1 goes directly to the spindle motor...
> Of the two that go in to the cabinet
> - one has what appear to be low voltage wires that go to the main terminal strip (7) in pic below.
> - The other has 4 heavy gauge red wires that go to the main disconnect and fuses - one to each.  This appears to me to be the power source for the VFD.


It looks like the VFD was wired for 3 phase input.  



> Ok - let's revisit the path to phase I - 'cause I am now kinda lost.
> Goal here is to have a workable manual mill.
> Can be a little redneck out of the gate.  I don't mind refining after I have operated a bit and understand it better.
> So either nice handles I add - or I just turn the exposed cogs by hand or with drill (have been doing so for past few days).
> Reasonably priced off shore DRO gives me my coordinates, plugs in to a 110 outlet on my wall.
> Do we think this VFD could just be wired to have a 220 plug and... plug in giving me spindle power?
> (I will need a handle for the quill lowering).


Maybe the VFD will work on 240 single phase.  Really need to see the specs on the spindle motor and I'll try to find the manual for the VFD.


> Secondarily - is there a means for me to test my servos with a bench power supply?  I posted a pic above showing the tag on them for specs.  I couldn't really make heads or tails of it.


A 12V battery would be perfect to see if the motors will turn.  I would guess at 12V they will turn about 100 or so RPM.  Just disconnect armature wires and connect to a battery.


----------



## Charlieman22

Jim - thanks.
Sit tight - I will fire a pic or two and get details of both VFD and spindle specs for you.
In mean time - I found this previously - may be of help.
http://www.metris-automation.com/support/pdf/AF500_Inverter.pdf


----------



## Charlieman22

Ok - I did the best I could with both.
Labels are worn.
My owner's manual - general - says: 50Hz/60Hz 3 phase 220-575V (as specified on order)
It is a 5 HP.
VFD appears to my eye to be a 502 3A7.  the manual I posted above seams to align with that.
I opened the cover so I could see how they had the jumpers wired - picture of that also below.
Motor - best I can make out:
Type  = M
INS CL   = L or E
Rotor = C
Code = ?

One crystal clear marking - its stamped - on motor place: Amp = 14
Hz = 60
Volt = ?20 (looks like 220 to me)

Tried a couple angles to rid reflection.
So scratched - see what you think.


----------



## Charlieman22




----------



## JimDawson

OK, that's not the same VFD that is in the eBay link.  That one is a 7A5 which is a 10HP unit.  You are not going to be able to use the 3A7 one to run that 5HP motor on single phase. The HUANYANG GT that you linked to will work on single phase.


----------



## Charlieman22

Got it.
(Hadn't initially realized that AF500 wasn't the actual model name)
Thanks for helping double check.
Will order the Huanyang GT.

I can test the servos with my bench power supply - it's adjustable for both volt and amp and goes 0-24V I think.
The servos all have two sets of wires going in.
Have been wondering about this.

Assume the lower set of input wires power the servo to spin.
Perhaps the upper is some sort of feedback sensor for RPM ?

There is also some form of "micro switch" who's wiring runs through the same conduit as the servos.
This appears to have told the machine something about positioning.

Thanks.
See below.

Here is a picture of the spindle servo.
	

		
			
		

		
	




The lower box can be seen here - open: (the two wires exiting appear to supply power to an ancillary component)
	

		
			
		

		
	




And here is a little diagram in the back of the box cover:
Can you help me with where I would apply the 12V pos and negative to test?
	

		
			
		

		
	




There are two of these - one on the X and one on the Y - which run back to the servos - and then I suspect are home runned back to the central box.  These I assume are limiting switches of some kind - and may or may not have a future on my set up?


----------



## JimDawson

The A1 and A2 wires are the wires that you would want to connect the 12V to.  But on the Z motor you have 1 more problem, it seems to have a brake, BR1 and BR2.  Most likely24VDC.  I'm assuming that the blue wires are the brake wires, energize to release.  There may be some brake information on the motor data plate.

Now, what I have never seen before is the 2A1 and 2A2 connection.  Given that there is a shielded cable going to that connection, I'm going to make a best guess that 2A1 and 2A2 is the tach connection back to the drive.

Yes, the limit switches will be in your future.


----------



## JimDawson

Since you are going for the manual option to start with, you are going to need a way of manually controling the VFD

Here is what I did on my mill.  I made this control box.



Then mounted it on the front of the head, you may want to mount in a different place, it really doesn't matter.  I was able to mount it here because I converted mine to direct drive and removed all of the mechanical variable speed hardware.  I can switch this over to computer control by flipping a switch on the control cabinet.



Parts list from Automation Direct https://www.automationdirect.com/adc/home/home

ECX2300-5K
AutomationDirect potentiometer, 5k ohm, 22mm, black.

SA110-40SL
AutomationDirect pushbutton enclosure, 4 holes, 22mm, 185 x 70 x

GCX1131
AutomationDirect emergency stop pushbutton, 22mm, twist-to-releas.

GCX1102
AutomationDirect pushbutton, 22mm, momentary, (1) N.O. contact(s)...

GCX1300
AutomationDirect selector switch, 22mm, 2-position, maintained,

E22NS31
Eaton legend plate, aluminum, rectangular, black field, silver ba.

E22NS34
Eaton legend plate, aluminum, rectangular, red field, silver back..

E22NS38
Eaton legend plate, aluminum, rectangular, black field, silver ba..

ECX2640
AutomationDirect legend plate, plastic, square, black field, blac.


----------



## Charlieman22

Jim - you're a star!
Thanks for thinking forward on that one and listing.
Looks like a few of those components are out of stock...  such is life.
Plenty of other options though - but I want to make sure I am focused on the right specs.

Have been thinking about this - considering two places to put it.
See pic below.
Was thinking I might be able to use that front panel as my spot.
If not - then just to the right of it.

Question: If I maintain the mechanical variable speed controller could I utilize just two switches to do the job?
 - Emergency stop
 - On/off/On rotary selector (assuming one exists)

If yes - would the On/off/On require 2 N.O positions?
(I was confused by the spec for the switch you noted above for reverse and forward as it has only 1 N.O. connection listed.  I may not be understanding how I would be wiring it though)

Amazon sells these:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07WTL3KPB/ref=crt_ewc_img_srh_3?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A135XTKU400AZ0
&
https://www.amazon.com/TWTADE-2Pcs-...ary+switch&qid=1622670110&s=industrial&sr=1-1

I kind of like the shinny red stop button.
If I need a third button for power on/off, I've spotted these:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B..._title_dp_2?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A1POY47GM797OI



Tough to know if there is enough space - but maybe.


----------



## JimDawson

I chose the spot for my controls to reflect my 50+ years of muscle memory of reaching up and to the left to control the spindle switch with my left hand.  The spindle switch on almost all BP type machines is on the left of the belt housing.  If you don't have that muscle memory then anywhere convenient is acceptable.

Your switch configuration depends on how you program the inputs on the VFD.  On/Off/On would be OK.  There are normally at least a half dozen switching options that can be programmed.  In my case the For/Rev programmed/wired so a closed contact is reverse and that same contact open is forward.  Start is a momentary contact closure.  The common is wired through the E-stop switch so when pressed, the run command is open.

In the case of a For/Off/Rev switch you would need two NO contact blocks on the switch.  You would want that twist release E-stop button in any case.

The Automation Direct out-of-stock items can be substituted with other items that are in stock. <insert nasty comment about current supply chain conditions here   >  Most of them you can mix parts between switches of the same series.  I normally keep a few extra contact blocks around, you can buy them in packs of 5.  You can also buy the bodies and operators separately to make up your own switches.

I would wire the VFD power into the cabinet main disconnect just as it is now, except use 2 wires (+ ground) rather than 3 as it is now.  Mine is actually wired straight to a breaker in my shop main panel, I never turn it off. 

You could always make a spacer for the front mounted location to give the depth needed, I think you need around 35mm behind the panel

With the mechanical variable speed you could just program the VFD to default to 60Hz and do all the speed adjustment with the mechanical adjustment.  That method has worked for many years.


----------



## Charlieman22

Jim - thanks!
Good insights all around.


JimDawson said:


> I chose the spot for my controls to reflect my 50+ years of muscle memory of reaching up and to the left to control the spindle switch with my left hand. The spindle switch on almost all BP type machines is on the left of the belt housing. If you don't have that muscle memory then anywhere convenient is acceptable.


Ha - I've seen  a machinist doing that reach thing - to flip it on and off - while not even looking up...  Makes sense.

I appreciate the patient response to my rumination / iterations.
The switches are important to me for both function and style.

My grand scheme is to take this thing to a Bridgeport green, with polished aluminum bits here and there.
I think it could be pretty spectacular.
I'll park the details of that discussion for the time being - but that is affecting my thinking around options - even for switches.

I'm sure a rheostat would be nicer to operate speed control.
I may get there in the end. 
But first move will probably be the 60hz program and manual control as you note.

My homes main power from the street comes in to a box on the back side of the wall where the machine is.
I could literally use a nock-out in it's box and then add 220 power to the back side of the machine via plug or direct wire.
It can have it's own breaker.
Considering entirely removing the box on the side of the machine to allow paint - sooner rather than later.
Does this change your opinion at all - or are there other reasons you would incorporate the wiring into the box out of the gate?


JimDawson said:


> You could always make a spacer for the front mounted location to give the depth needed, I think you need around 35mm behind the panel


Good thought.



JimDawson said:


> Your switch configuration depends on how you program the inputs on the VFD


Didn't realize this was the case.  Gives me some options. 
Maybe a joystick would be cool.
Will have to ponder that this eve.

And since we are there - quick update.
I tested all three servos.
Work beautifully.
The brake wires we saw coming out of the spindle solenoid go to the spindle brake.
It's an air cylinder with an electric solenoid.
So with no air pressure on it - It appears to be off.
Suspect it will engage when I put air pressure to it.
Appears to be 100V - which must disengage it when it get's power.
My moment of zen from today:






Surprised this is 100V?


----------



## JimDawson

Charlieman22 said:


> Jim - thanks!
> Good insights all around.
> 
> Ha - I've seen  a machinist doing that reach thing - to flip it on and off - while not even looking up...  Makes sense.


My pleasure


> My homes main power from the street comes in to a box on the back side of the wall where the machine is.
> I could literally use a nock-out in it's box and then add 220 power to the back side of the machine via plug or direct wire.
> It can have it's own breaker.


Are you saying that your breaker panel is behind the machine?  No problem in that case.  A 4x4x2 box on the wall would be fine.   You can plug the rest of the controls into the nearest 120V outlet.



> Considering entirely removing the box on the side of the machine to allow paint - sooner rather than later.
> Does this change your opinion at all - or are there other reasons you would incorporate the wiring into the box out of the gate?


For purely manual operation there is very little reason to have the box on there.  You do have some 120V (100V) control wiring for the power draw bar and spindle brake.  That could be stuffed into a temporary box for the short term.




> Didn't realize this was the case.  Gives me some options.
> Maybe a joystick would be cool.
> Will have to ponder that this eve.


Not sure just how a joystick would work there. 



> And since we are there - quick update.
> I tested all three servos.
> Work beautifully.


That is awesome  



> The brake wires we saw coming out of the spindle solenoid go to the spindle brake.
> It's an air cylinder with an electric solenoid.
> So with no air pressure on it - It appears to be off.
> Suspect it will engage when I put air pressure to it.
> Appears to be 100V - which must disengage it when it get's power.



Ah, OK.  My guess is that the solenoid is energized to apply the brake when the buttons are pushed for the power drawbar.



> Surprised this is 100V?



Not surprised at all, typical Japanese control voltage 30 years ago.  It's 110V now, but that's at 50 Hz, so that's equivalent to 120V at 60Hz.  That valve will operate fine on 120V.  I have a bunch of similar valves in my lathe.


----------



## Charlieman22

JimDawson said:


> Are you saying that your breaker panel is behind the machine? No problem in that case. A 4x4x2 box on the wall would be fine.


The wall behind my machine:  It's an outside wall - and the homes first (of a few) electrical boxes is mounted outside.  Standing on the outside - I can punch straight through a nock out and come through to the inside of the house (right behind my machine).


JimDawson said:


> Not sure just how a joystick would work there.


This one (though I might have to add back an off off switch if it doesn't have a central no contact position)  Could be set to be my forward reverse I think.  Very Lost in Space.  Kinda like it.  https://www.automationdirect.com/ad...ic_22mm_(ar22_series)/joysticks/ar22a0n-a0a0b

Not completely clear - but I think there is a "neutral" position between left and right where no contacts make connection (at least on the momentary one). 

Do you think that would work?



JimDawson said:


> Ah, OK. My guess is that the solenoid is energized to apply the brake when the buttons are pushed for the power drawbar.


Ah - good point.  So maybe I need to think fully about what controls would be on the "manual" phase and include something for the power draw bar.
1.  On off
2.  Emergency stop
3.  Spindle direction
4.  Maybe spindle speed
5.  Power draw bar & brake solenoid activation

On off could feasibly be same switch as forward reverse as previously discussed.
Power draw bar and brake would be momentary two way switch of some kind.
Uh boy - now I am kinda liking the idea of a joy stick for power draw bar - momentary design.  Seems a natural.  Needs to go two directions I assume? (120V, momentary, 2 NO position version).  

The review I read on Amazon for a similar one to the link above said that it rested in the middle with no contacts mad - and only made contact when pushed left or right



JimDawson said:


> Not surprised at all, typical Japanese control voltage 30 years ago. It's 110V now, but that's at 50 Hz, so that's equivalent to 120V at 60Hz. That valve will operate fine on 120V. I have a bunch of similar valves in my lathe.


Mill Fact
Thanks


----------



## extropic

Great news that the three servos run.

I wonder why the PO had the X servo unmounted?

Jim,
This is a closed loop control system, yes?
So there is an encoder on each servo motor?
If yes, is there a way he can do a simple test on each encoder without the controler/software operating?
Thanks for the great tutorial.

Charlie,
Excellent progress.


----------



## Charlieman22

extropic said:


> I wonder why the PO had the X servo unmounted?


Good observation - & Interesting question.
The covers were off both the X & Y axis limit switches as well.
I'm not sure why.



extropic said:


> Charlie,
> Excellent progress.


Thanks!


----------



## JimDawson

Charlieman22 said:


> The wall behind my machine:  It's an outside wall - and the homes first (of a few) electrical boxes is mounted outside.  Standing on the outside - I can punch straight through a nock out and come through to the inside of the house (right behind my machine).



OK, I'm confused.  I have a free standing meter base and a distribution panel outside which guess you could call the main breaker panel.  From this main panel the power splits out to the house, the pump house, the RV pad, and the shop.  Each of those has it's own breaker panel.  So is there a main breaker panel on the outside of that wall, next to the meter base?



> This one (though I might have to add back an off off switch if it doesn't have a central no contact position)  Could be set to be my forward reverse I think.  Very Lost in Space.  Kinda like it.  https://www.automationdirect.com/ad...ic_22mm_(ar22_series)/joysticks/ar22a0n-a0a0b
> 
> Not completely clear - but I think there is a "neutral" position between left and right where no contacts make connection (at least on the momentary one).
> 
> Do you think that would work?



I was just playing with one (I have one at my desk, I have a lot of stuff on my desk   ) It does seem that the center position is neutral, but the one I have is a spring return to center.  The one you linked to is a maintained position so not sure it it has a center stop position.




> Ah - good point.  So maybe I need to think fully about what controls would be on the "manual" phase and include something for the power draw bar.
> 1.  On off
> 2.  Emergency stop
> 3.  Spindle direction
> 4.  Maybe spindle speed
> 5.  Power draw bar & brake solenoid activation
> 
> On off could feasibly be same switch as forward reverse as previously discussed.


That's really all you need.



> Power draw bar and brake would be momentary two way switch of some kind.
> Uh boy - now I am kinda liking the idea of a joy stick for power draw bar - momentary design.  Seems a natural.  Needs to go two directions I assume? (120V, momentary, 2 NO position version).


I would say that a momentary switch would work fine for the power drawbar, you could use a joystick for that.  Yup, insert and release.


> The review I read on Amazon for a similar one to the link above said that it rested in the middle with no contacts mad - and only made contact when pushed left or right


Most likely based on what I read in the specs.



extropic said:


> Jim,
> This is a closed loop control system, yes?
> So there is an encoder on each servo motor?
> If yes, is there a way he can do a simple test on each encoder without the controler/software operating?
> Thanks for to great tutorial.
> Charlie,



Yes it is a closed loop system, and there is most likely encoders on the servo motors.   Short of powering them up with 5V and using a scope, I don't know how you would test them.  On the other hand I really don't think it matters much, last I heard the plan was to use magnetic linear scales which are an order of magnitude better IMHO.


----------



## extropic

JimDawson said:


> <snip     the plan was to use magnetic linear scales which are an order of magnitude better IMHO.


Thanks for reminding me. Instead of using rotary encoders to determine axis position, the plan is to use the magnetic scales.


----------



## Charlieman22

JimDawson said:


> Each of those has it's own breaker panel. So is there a main breaker panel on the outside of that wall, next to the meter base?


Exactly.  The meter is there - and the main breaker panel is there - feeding other panels.  Main panel has unused spaces.  I previously had a 220 breaker installed - and brought the wires through the wall and put a 220 plug on the inside of the garage in the same area.


JimDawson said:


> I was just playing with one (I have one at my desk, I have a lot of stuff on my desk  ) It does seem that the center position is neutral, but the one I have is a spring return to center. The one you linked to is a maintained position so not sure it it has a center stop position.


Ha!  Well - the spring return one seems ideal for engaging the the draw bar/brake to me.  Nice action to make and better than a button for momentary - a wrist can do it if hands are deep in grease.


JimDawson said:


> last I heard the plan was to use magnetic linear scales which are an order of magnitude better IMHO.


Caused a chuckle.
Plan hasn't changed.
Yet...
But I have been known...
(I have an email in to Ditron.  Haven't gotten a response yet).

Ok - I'm going to do a bit of shopping.
Think I have my mind around basic needs - and I don't plan to spend a ton on these switches.
If I determine I want something different in the future - they will get replaced - but I have the basic plan now I think.


----------



## Charlieman22

Ok - Ditron just replied.
They are offering me the D80 (looks to be same specs with bit fancier screen) for $40 more than the D100.  Any reason not to grab the nicer reader for the extra $40? (their product nomenclature is... confusing... to say the least).
D80 looks to be same functionality but nicer screen from my look.
Note - I could also add RPM to the D80 and again - it appears to be inexpensive as an upgrade.
What do we think?


----------



## JimDawson

Nothing wrong with the D80.  Not sure how the RPM would work, but might be worth the upgrade just to play with it.  Might be a learning experience, the problem is trying to find a place to sense the spindle speed.


----------



## Charlieman22

JimDawson said:


> Nothing wrong with the D80. Not sure how the RPM would work, but might be worth the upgrade just to play with it. Might be a learning experience, the problem is trying to find a place to sense the spindle speed.


I like the challenge...
They wrote back (late night workers over there!) and asked:
Do I need 1pc of magnetic tape 3M or 3 pieces of magnetic tape 1M each.
Not sure I know...

*Edit - they also asked if I needed the "aluminum base" - I think the answer to that one is no.
There picture below
My assumption was - cleaner install without -but perhaps this provides a little protection to the tape?


----------



## JimDawson

There is a bit of a translation issue when buying parts.  Fortunately their documentation is well written by a native English speaker, and quite possibly a machinist.

I would buy it in one long piece, then just cut to length as needed.  3M should give you enough to replace all of it down the road in about 5 or 6 years if needed, or have enough for your lathe also, when you get one.  (I replaced my X axis tape after 6 years because I spilled some acetone on it and the tape started coming loose)

No aluminum pad needed, just the tape and stainless steel ''cover band''.  If needed I can provide some pictures.

This is from their PDF


----------



## Charlieman22

Ok - lest we not have something on the agenda to figure out - there is one thing that remains unresolved.
Quill movement.
Manual is going to be tough.
At issue - there is really no good place for a manual hand wheel.
Interference issues with the casting and it seems, the only spots would be parallel rather than perpendicular to the floor.

With no controller in place - option for a nice pulse generating wheel seem limited to me.
I want to control direction and speed of decent/ascent.
I won't have any tactile feel - so subtle control seems critical.
Having to turn a nob to make it go, then flip a switch to back it off, then turn the nob, then flip the switch - just to pulse the quill when drilling seems a nightmare.

So I am leaning towards a solution using a foot pedal that has variable speed control built in.
I use this type of pedal when Dremeling and TIG welding - so it's kind of a natural.
If I then used a joy stick with momentary control to direct it up or down - I think I could make it pretty nice.

Of course - as soon as I considered that, I thought, wait: why not put a 3 way selector in, so I can send power to the quill, or the X, or the Y, axis - and then I would have power axis that I could adjust with my foot.
I don't know though. 
That would mean a joy stick for X & another for Y.
Maybe.

Top on my list though - is finding a quality DC foot pedal that would provide variable speed.
Welcome any/all suggestions if this is a known quantity to anyone reading.

Shot this picture of the tag on my servos.
Can't make head's or tails of what the max voltage they are safe to be run at.
Can anyone help me decipher?


----------



## JimDawson

The max voltage looks to be 178V.  Just to put this in perspective, my motors are rated at 140V, and I run them off of a 75V power supply, and the maximum voltage I have actually seen them run is about 40V at 100 IPM.  So running them at much lower than the rated voltage will be fine.

I guess you could use a DC motor controller, but those are rather expensive and really would not work too well for this application.  One option that comes to mind is a Brushed DC motor digital driver that takes step & direction signals.  https://www.ebay.com/itm/254395441314?hash=item3b3b2660a2:g:5-MAAOSwc8ZdrVYM

You could connect a MPG to this (maybe) and actually control the motor with a hand wheel.  I did this trick with a stepper motor once, no controller involved, so there is a chance it will work.  There is an encoder on the motor so maybe this could be all lashed up.








						Universal CNC 4 Axis MPG Pendant Handwheel & Emergency Stop for Siemens  #USA#  | eBay
					

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					www.ebay.com


----------



## Charlieman22

Hmm - may have over simplified that one in my mind.

Thanks for the research and suggestions.
Universal Pendant seems viable.
Question: Does the dial act as a kind of rheostat - speeding up the motor in either direction depending on clockwise or counter clockwise twist of dial?

That said - I really liked the idea of a foot pedal with variable speed control -  for moving the servos.
Don't want to throw in the towel quite yet on that - think it would be super functional.
Foot pedal speed control, with sprung joy stick sending it left/right or up down.
_Editors note - I have foot pedals on everything in my house - including the kitchen sink - literally..._

Can we beat that one up a bit more - and perhaps you can educate me on why it's bone headed?
My electronics naivety will be on full display...

I see three types of foot pedals.
Some pics and specs below.
1.  AC type used with grinders.  Juts plug in between tool and 110v wall plug
2.  Welding type.  Assume AC.  Much heavier duty.  7 pin DIN connector.  Perhaps that means it has 7 steps?  
3.  AC/DC conversion type.  Plug in to 110AC - output DC volts

I was initially thinking an AC type feeding a converter.
Now I am thinking that perhaps the issue is - a converter wont work if it is fed less than it's 110V.

This DC one appears to be viable - but perhaps its 4amps is too little/ would hurt my motors?
https://www.amazon.com/Control-Vari...ble+speed+foot+pedal+dc&qid=1622817340&sr=8-6

A more out there idea would be to combine my existing gynormo original servo AC/DC converters from my electronics box with one of the heavier duty AC foot pedals from the welding world?
Did the DC voltage put out from these converters get increased and decreased by a controller AFTER it came out of the converters as opposed to the converters RECEIVING variable AC current going in?

I'm wild guessing here - but throwing it out to see what I learn/ checking all the corners of the envelope.

AC to DC converting foot pedal from like above.  Specs at very bottom of these pictures cut and pasted from Amazon.



Light weight AC for grinder
	

		
			
		

		
	




Specs of what it powers:



Welding type foot pedal - appears much more heavy duty - suspect much higher average - uses DIN plug
	

		
			
		

		
	





Specs of AC to DC foot Foredom foot pedal (first pic)
(Foot operated speed control comes in a heavy, cast iron metal housing and the extra weight provides added stability and control. It features the same durable, solid state electronics as the C.TXR. The ergonomics allow precise and reliable speed control with your foot. C.SXR-1 has special electronics that converts AC current from an electrical outlet to DC current- the type required by the motor. It also has a special plug that fits the motor's shielded plug. For use with 115 Volt M.TX, M.TXB, M.TXH, M.LX, M.LXB, M.LXH and M.LXBH motors. 7” long, 5” wide, 2-1/2” high, packaged wt-6 lb/2.7 kg, 4 Amps, 60 Hz It is interchangeable with Foredom's C.TXR-1 and C.EMX-1 controls.)


----------



## JimDawson

Foot peddles work great for operations where you need to have your hands free like hand grinding, welding and that kind of thing, not so much where you need consistent speed control.  The variable speed foot peddles you show are designed to work with series wound universal motors, not brushed DC or AC motors.  Think light dimmer, with a couple more components thrown in.  The exception might be the Fordom foot peddle which may have a PWM DC output, but a much more complex circuit hence the higher cost, but is still designed to run a series wound universal motor.

The welder foot peddle most likely has 2 switches and a pot in it hence the 7 pin plug.  Pre/post flow and contactor switches, and the pot that controls the welding current through the electronics in the welder box.  None of this is high power, all control level signals.

Electric power feeds are very common on manual machines.  Normally when machining you would want to set an axis speed and then not vary that speed at all for the duration of the cut, this gives you a consistent surface finish and chip load.  This only applies to manual machining, CNC is a little different, but under computer control.  You and I can't control a machine like a computer does.

So, the best solution is to have a Forward/Off/Reverse switch, and a speed control pot, tied to a DC motor controller.  Now this only applies to the X and Y axes.  You could use the existing servo drives as a manual power feed speed control by adding a proper switch and a pot.  About $10 in parts and a little wiring.  It should be noted that your existing servos are capable of moving things around at speeds far exceeding your ability to control them, thus need to be operated at much reduced performance for human control.  Overall a power feed solution is pretty easy for the X and Y axes, we can address this later.  The Z axis is where you need to concentrate your efforts for the moment.

The hand wheel on the MPG is a 100 pulse/rev encoder.  Connected to proper electronics would give you variable speed along with For/Rev.  The faster you turn the handwheel the faster the motor would turn in either direction.  You can buy just the handwheel encoder for about $20.  You already have one, that probably cost about $300 because it says Fanuc on it.

You have a unique challenge on your Z axis, no mechanical manual capability at all.  This is where a joystick might actually make sense, but I am thinking about a more conventional action that is closer to a normal manual operation.  A manual mill requires about two rotations of the hand lever for full travel of the quill, much like most drill presses.  This action could be duplicated by a lever attached to a rotary encoder that would then send signals to a pulse input motor drive like the one I linked to above.  You still would not have any tactile feedback but at least the action would be somewhat conventional and easily controllable.

Bottom line: Foot peddles are not a good fit for this application.


----------



## extropic

To add another point to Jim's comments on foot pedals, for X and Y axes, it's common to set a speed, direction and GO on a power drive.
At that point, you're free to place your attention or even your body elsewhere. A simple example is to turn back to your bench and another task while the mill is cutting. You can set up a limit switch to stop the traverse or a quick glance checking progress can send your attention back to controling the machine.

A foot pedal would be like a dead man's switch and require you to stay in place 100% of the time. That would be mind numbing. It gives me the willies to consider it.


----------



## Charlieman22

Ok - bench raced the foot pedal idea.  
Foot pedal is out.
Thanks for taking the time to give me the background so I had some depth.



JimDawson said:


> The Z axis is where you need to concentrate your efforts for the moment.


Agreed.


JimDawson said:


> You can buy just the handwheel encoder for about $20. You already have one, that probably cost about $300 because it says Fanuc on it.


Ha!  Ok.


JimDawson said:


> You have a unique challenge on your Z axis, no mechanical manual capability at all. This is where a joystick might actually make sense, but I am thinking about a more conventional action that is closer to a normal manual operation.


I've stood at the machine - and played with the Fanuc knob.
I have also positioned a joy stick.
The joy stick seems somewhat natural - it has a sprung return action, and moves up and down in the direction of the quill motion.
It also requires less fabrication.
Since I don't have a mill yet... less fabrication is desirable.

Now comes the part I am not so clear on.
Is there a scheme that would allow me to use the brushed DC power supply you linked, and a rotary potentiometer, like below, combined with a spring action joy stick?  This to allow me to move the quill up and down (and adjust it's speed of motion when needed.

Thanks.






2.  Output from this runs through one of these to allow me to set speed:
	

		
			
		

		
	




Joy stick scale is small - but it is also fairly shallow.  Could go on front or side near quill as could potentiometer.


----------



## Charlieman22

*Edit/addition.
Using one of those nice looking knobs would also be viable - WITHOUT attaching a spindle or handle of any kind.
This too would be quick and avoid need for significant fabrication.
I think that is what you were suggesting above - just without the additional handles added.
	

		
			
		

		
	




So I should have asked - what would the schematic look if I combined one of the knobs below, with the DC power supply you above to drive the Quill up and down?


----------



## JimDawson

Charlieman22 said:


> Now comes the part I am not so clear on.
> Is there a scheme that would allow me to use the brushed DC power supply you linked, and a rotary potentiometer, like below, combined with a spring action joy stick? This to allow me to move the quill up and down (and adjust it's speed of motion when needed.



Not that one, that requires a pulse input to run, like from an encoder or a controller.

Something like this might work https://www.ebay.com/itm/2547423054...43b5ade42541366fe4e1|ampid:PL_CLK|clp:2334524


----------



## extropic

Placement of the every manual quill control I've seen is on the operators right hand side of the machine's head.
The problem I have with using a joy stick is that it's seem so easy to bump accidentally. Wouldn't that be a problem?


----------



## Charlieman22

Family event had me out of the house this afternoon/eve.
It's interesting.  Both of you are identifying the norms I haven't necessarily considered - due to your experience.
It's caused me to think through placement and function in a different way.



extropic said:


> The problem I have with using a joy stick is that it's seem so easy to bump accidentally. Wouldn't that be a problem?


I hadn't considered any bumping issue.
For the quill - it will be up at the normal level of a quill wheel.
Perhaps I should think about keeping it on the right side - which would also protect it from being bumped.



JimDawson said:


> Something like this might work https://www.ebay.com/itm/2547423054...43b5ade42541366fe4e1|ampidL_CLK|clp:2334524


I saw the unit from that link.
It could do a good job as a speed control - but turning such a small knob + lacking the tactile feel, seems like it would be strange.
The CNC pendant you previously sent would be a more interesting nob to turn to move the quill.
Perhaps we can recap options tomorrow.
I may not be fully understanding - muddling apples and oranges.

Thanks both.


----------



## JimDawson

I actually should have linked to this one, it has a reversing switch.








						DC 10-55V MAX 60A PWM Motor Speed Controller CW CCW Reversible 12V 24V 36V  | eBay
					

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The knob sets the speed and the switch is For/Off/Rev.  You could replace the switch with a joystick.


----------



## Charlieman22

AHHH! (Light bulb over head flashing)
Got it.
And love it.
For $15 - its a done deal for first round experiment at minimum.
Thanks.

If joystick is a failure - I can toy around with other means of engaging - but this will get me out of the gate.
Having slept on it - using your external box idea as a starting point would likely be the quickest simplest.
Once I have a set up I like - I can refine its placement and install in a custom face plate .
So we now have a plan for spindle movement up down.

As for motor power - yesterday - received my VFD.
Fish out of water on this - but think I get the gist.
Posting below with request for input - to avoid shutting down neighborhood with blackout due to user error.

So obviously - three wires run form plug to VFD at R/S/T connections, but not sure which correspond to which on the plug?
Then 3 wires run from VFD to motor - motor has black red green currently.  VFD is labeled with U/V/W.  
Finally - VFD has a "earth" terminal, 1E, but I'm not sure how this would come in to play at all for my set up?

Think we might be able to test the motor today with a little help - and a little luck...
Thanks!
-CM




Diagram - mine is the bottom model.  
	

		
			
		

		
	




Plug I will get from Lowes


----------



## Charlieman22

Looks like Amazon can deliver this tomorrow.
Best I can tell its the same unit?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B...title_srh_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A2YO41UFJMTITF


----------



## JimDawson

OK, now for the fun.  First off, I would wire the plug through the main panel disconnect, then to the VFD.  Even if temporary to be able to turn it on and off.  Remove the existing wiring from the panel disconnect before connecting the new wires.  Using the wall plug as a disconnect is a bad idea.

The incoming power will be connected to R and T, S is not used. Normally Red and Black wires in the cable, could also be Black and White wires.  Green wire is always ground and connected to the center lug in the plug and the E1 terminal.  Doesn't matter to which ''hot'' lug you connect the power wires to.

Motor will be connected to U, V, W.  Motor case ground is also connected to E1.  Might be best here to run a short piece of Green wire to the E1 terminal and use a wire nut to connect all of the grounds together.  Those terminals are a bit small to try to stuff more than one wire into.

Now you need to set the running parameters in the VFD, the voltage and current need to match the motor data plate.

Look at the programming section of the manual.  The goal for the moment is just to get the motor turning.


----------



## JimDawson

Charlieman22 said:


> Looks like Amazon can deliver this tomorrow.
> Best I can tell its the same unit?
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B...title_srh_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A2YO41UFJMTITF



Looks the same.  For testing you can use your bench 24V power supply.


----------



## Charlieman22

JimDawson said:


> For testing you can use your bench 24V power supply.


Hmmm - joy stick has 4 terminals on it.
Actually not sure how to put this in line with my power supply and Servo to revers directions.
	

		
			
		

		
	





JimDawson said:


> I would wire the plug through the main panel disconnect, then to the VFD.


Clear.  Plug to main disconnect.  Disconnect to VFD


JimDawson said:


> The incoming power will be connected to R and T, S is not used. Normally Red and Black wires in the cable, could also be Black and White wires. Green wire is always ground and connected to the center lug in the plug and the E1 terminal. Doesn't matter to which ''hot'' lug you connect the power wires to.


Ok.  Need just a bit more hand holding on this.
Below is a picture of the main disconnect.

Let's take it from the plug.
Plug has three wires.
One is on the big terminal.
One on the narrow terminal
One on the ground.
1.  Does ground go directly to E1 in the VFD and skips the main disconnect?
2.  Can you help walk me explicitly from the three terminals on the plug - to the main disconnect - and then to the VFD?

(where on the main disconnect do the incoming and outgoing wires connect to and where do they connect to exit and go to the VFD?)


----------



## JimDawson

You are not going to connect the joystick between the power supply and the controller.  The joystick terminals would connect in place of the switch furnished with the controller.  We'll get to those connections when you have a controller in your hand.

I'm going to assume that you have Black, White, and Green wires in the power cable from the plug.

Remove the Black wires (labeled 1, 2, 3) from the bottom of the disconnect and tape off.

Connect the Black and White wires from the plug to the corresponding labeled lugs at the top of the fuses
Connect the green wire to the existing green wire in the panel, where ever it is connected.
Remove the fuse labeled RED, it won't be used.

Now you have the three red wires connected to the bottom, below the fuses.
Locate the unused red wire and remove it.
Now you should have two red wires and a green wire going to the VFD.
Connect the red wires to the R and T terminals of the VFD, do not connect anything to the S terminal
Connect the green wire to the E1 terminal on the VFD

Connect the connect the motor wires to the U, V, W terminals on the VFD, doesn't matter in what order
Connect the green motor wire to the E1 terminal

Make sure the disconnect is turned off
Plug in the power cable
Turn the disconnect on, the VFD should power up.

Now you are ready to set the parameters.


----------



## Charlieman22

JimDawson said:


> You are not going to connect the joystick between the power supply and the controller. The joystick terminals would connect in place of the switch furnished with the controller. We'll get to those connections when you have a controller in your hand.


Had misunderstood the prior post about using my power supply to test - thought you meant with joy stick.
Was amazed by your electrical engineering prowess -  that would combine my power supply with the joy stick and reverse polarities!
Alas - joy stick will be replacement for forward backward switch on power supply I've ordered...
Noted.

Rest of the description is clear.
Thank you.
Will report back with results.


----------



## Charlieman22

Good Sunday morning.
Working on a few items today.
1.  Will attempt to wire up VFD
2.  Program.  Have a few questions... Somewhat overwhelming.
Below is a basic list of 17 parameters.
A few of them seem straight forward enough - but many do not.
Very hard to read my motor parameters sign as well - as it is worn - but best pictures I could get have been posted.
Would welcome any suggested approaches or settings.
Off to start the wiring - can tackle the programing afterwards.
Thanks for any input in advance!

- .00 Speed control model (0-2) 0 is V/F control, 1= Sensorless vector control, 2 = Torque control
- .01 Run Command Source.  (0-2) 0 is keypad
- .02 Keypad up/down setting (0-3) 0 is value saved when inverter turned off
- .03 What should my "Max Frequency" be set to?  (range 10.00 to 400.00)
- .04 And what should my Upper frequency limit" be? (P0.05 - P0.03)
- .05 Lower Frequency Limit (Output frequency is >or=Upper limits the frequency>or= Lower limit of the frequency (0.00-P0.04) 0.00 Hz default
- .06 Keypad reference frequency (0.00-P0.03) 50.00 Hz default

There are then 3 settings - P07 - P10 that have something to do with frequency.  I might as well just take a picture of the book because I can hardly decipher these at all.  Inclination - leave everything at default...
- .07 Frequency Command Source (0-7). 7 settings ( 0 is default and makes the prior input (P06) the default.)
- .08 Frequency B Command
- .09 Scale of Frequency B Command
- .10 Frequency Command Selection

-.11 Acceleration Time 0 (.1-3600s)
-.12 Deceleration Time 0 (.1-3600s)
- .13 Inverter running direction (0-3). 3 is "wont run backwards".  1 & 2 are forward and reverse directions.
- .14 Carrier Frequency 1-15 kHz
- .15 AVR function
- .16 Motor Perimeter auto-tuning  (0-2) Seems to do the settings for you - but must have no load on it for best results. 
- .17 - restore all the parameters...  suspect I will be pushing this once or twice.


----------



## JimDawson

Charlieman22 said:


> - .00 Speed control model (0-2) 0 is V/F control, 1= Sensorless vector control, 2 = Torque control


Leave at V/F control for now.  You will be setting for SV control later, but let's get it running first.


Charlieman22 said:


> - .01 Run Command Source. (0-2) 0 is keypad


Leave at keypad for now


Charlieman22 said:


> - .02 Keypad up/down setting (0-3) 0 is value saved when inverter turned off


Leave at 0 for now


Charlieman22 said:


> - .03 What should my "Max Frequency" be set to? (range 10.00 to 400.00)


Set to 60Hz


Charlieman22 said:


> - .04 And what should my Upper frequency limit" be? (P0.05 - P0.03)


Set to 60Hz


Charlieman22 said:


> - .05 Lower Frequency Limit (Output frequency is >or=Upper limits the frequency>or= Lower limit of the frequency (0.00-P0.04) 0.00 Hz default


Set to 30 Hz


Charlieman22 said:


> - .06 Keypad reference frequency (0.00-P0.03) 50.00 Hz default
> 
> There are then 3 settings - P07 - P10 that have something to do with frequency. I might as well just take a picture of the book because I can hardly decipher these at all. Inclination - leave everything at default...


Set to 60Hz


Charlieman22 said:


> - .07 Frequency Command Source (0-7). 7 settings ( 0 is default and makes the prior input (P06) the default.)


Leave at 0


Charlieman22 said:


> - .08 Frequency B Command


Leave at default


Charlieman22 said:


> - .09 Scale of Frequency B Command


Leave at default


Charlieman22 said:


> - .10 Frequency Command Selection


Set to keypad


Charlieman22 said:


> -.11 Acceleration Time 0 (.1-3600s)


set to 5


Charlieman22 said:


> -.12 Deceleration Time 0 (.1-3600s)


set to 5


Charlieman22 said:


> - .13 Inverter running direction (0-3). 3 is "wont run backwards". 1 & 2 are forward and reverse directions.


set to For/Rev


Charlieman22 said:


> - .14 Carrier Frequency 1-15 kHz


Leave at default


Charlieman22 said:


> - .15 AVR function


Leave at default


Charlieman22 said:


> - .16 Motor Perimeter auto-tuning (0-2) Seems to do the settings for you - but must have no load on it for best results.


Leave at 0


Charlieman22 said:


> - .17 - restore all the parameters... suspect I will be pushing this once or twice.


Hopefully you won't need this

You need to locate and set the max output current per the motor data plate amps.  This may be expressed as a percentage of the VFD max rated output. Not sure if that VFD is set in amps or percentage.  It's be a year or so since I set one of those up.


----------



## Charlieman22

Thanks Jim.
Gracious that's thats helpful as a starting point.

So...  here comes one of those questions:
Is current = AMPs?
If my motor plate is stamped 14 or 14.7 amp - the nomenclature is tough to read but I think it is showing decimal places in that right hand column - does that give me 14.7 amps of current?
	

		
			
		

		
	



Here is a picture.


----------



## JimDawson

Read that as 14 amps at 220V, and 7 amps at 440V.  That is a dual voltage motor. You will be running at 220 (240) volts, so 14 amps.


----------



## Charlieman22

Ok - we are wired.
It will turn on.
I am about to program.

There are 17 P settings to choose from.
None of them seem to call out max amperage.
Not sure how/where to address the max current.Pictures below if helpful?


----------



## JimDawson

Look at the P2.xx parameters

Your motor is 3.7KW (5* 0.745)
60Hz
60Hz
1800 RPM
220V
14 Amps


----------



## Charlieman22

We're close.
Here are the settings.
One confusing item - P2.07.  I was expecting to see 50.00Hz when I went to it.  Instead it shows 00.706.  Default should ahem been 50.00.  Should I set this to 60.00








This is P2.07 at it's default.


----------



## JimDawson

No, leave it at the current value.  

Once you have the base parameters set, then you can run the auto tune.  Should be done unloaded, but it will work OK with the belt on.  I think there is a parameter to auto tune without it trying to move the motor for doing it in the loaded condition.


----------



## Charlieman22

Ok - I went through the no movement auto tune - but it doesn't like it.
Seems to trip the system after a few seconds - its supposed to run for about 2 minutes.
Note: it also doesn't set its mutual inductance and current without out load using this form of autotune - even when it works.
They say I should set that from "experience".
Hahahaha!

So I can't autotune without motion.  
Perhaps I will have to pull the motor to do that properly.
In the mean time - I decided it was time to take it for a short spin - and see what we have.

Tower: we have ignition





Picture of the VFD riding piggy back.
I welded up some cross members to I didn't have to drill and re-tap from the prior larger VFD into the castings.


----------



## JimDawson

Looks good.  Try auto tuning in motor movement mode.

Now you can set up SV mode and figure out how your control console is going to connect.


----------



## Charlieman22

Thanks gents.
Was rushed a bit when I posted previously.
Need to celebrate the wins - as much as the misses!

Its been one week.
The machine is in my garage.
Clean.
Not lying on its side...
All the servos work.
And the spindle is up and running.
Not bad!

Jim - yeoman's effort!
Good input all around from the crowd has us in pretty good shape.
_*Was absolute smile creator when the spindle spun up!*_

Now I need to get a bit of tooling...
What exactly I need - is another question...
Don't need to buy it at once - would be nice to find some used stuff at the right price along the way.
But also open to buying a few key items new.

From prior discussion:


spumco said:


> Before you jump in to the deep end, wait to get it home and then pull the drawbar out. Measure the threads - if it's a 5/8-11 then you have an NT40 taper. Also known as "NMTB40", "NST40" tapers.


It appears I have 5/8-11.  So I think I am shopping for NT40/NMTB40/NST40 tooling.


JimDawson said:


> It looks like the difference is a m16x2 thread for the ISO, vs. a 5/8 -11 thread for the CAT, BT, and NT.


Unless this supersedes that?


Papa Charlie said:


> On the Collet end, there are different ER sizes, Size 40 which identies the outter dimensions of the collet would be a great place to start, then find a set of ER40 Collets that cover a reasonable range of tools that you can insert into them.


So a 40 size collet, and ER40 collets to match would be a solid star.


extropic said:


> The WEBB in question does not have an automatic tool changer and I suspect it does not use pull studs.





extropic said:


> On the other hand, the CAT, CV, V-Flange and similar end at the small end of the taper (intended for use with pull studs)


So I think not CAT,CV, or V - they have studs - and will not fit.

Have I got this right?

On my shopping list:
On my list:
- Vice - Kurt would be nice of course - but perhaps an offshore model would be more appropriate?  How big a vice am I looking for?
- Clamping kit that will fit 16mm (5/8") table slots
- MT40 tool holder and a set of collets to hold drill bits and end mills (I think this is how you hold them?!)

Few specialty items I would really like to have:
A decent boring tool.
A decent face surfacing tool.
See pics below of some work I would like to do.

1.  Run a surfacing tool over it to make the welded built up area match the surrounding gasket mating area
2.  Cut a groove like this in the face as shown (this groove was cut with a boring tool prior to the welding)
3.  Bore out the width of the entire circumference by an additional 1/16" 

P.S.  Jim - saw your note on autotune.  Book says it won't work.  It also notes: "set the proper acceleration and deceleration time (P0.11 and P0.12) according to motor inertia before performing auto tuning.  Otherwise it may cause over-current and over voltage fault during auto tuning".  Wonder if this is my issue.


----------



## Charlieman22

Short edit to above: as I have looked for ER collet tool holders - what I see is "NT" 40 with 16mm thread, and "CAT" 40 with 5/8-11. 
Is it possible that the NT are all metric?  Not sure I have a handle on it completely...


----------



## JimDawson

Charlieman22 said:


> On my shopping list:
> On my list:
> - Vice - Kurt would be nice of course - but perhaps an offshore model would be more appropriate? How big a vice am I looking for?
> - Clamping kit that will fit 16mm (5/8") table slots
> - MT40 tool holder and a set of collets to hold drill bits and end mills (I think this is how you hold them?!)
> 
> Few specialty items I would really like to have:
> A decent boring tool.
> A decent face surfacing tool.


Time to go down the tooling rabbit hole   
A 6 inch vice would be my choice for a machine that size.  As you say, Kurt would be nice, but a quality import clone would be fine
You are going to want a drill chuck (Albrecth or Rohm are good in keyless chucks) for drilling, and an arbor adaptor for it.  There are several different Jacobs tapers for chuck mounting, so you need to get the correct JT to #40 adaptor for the chuck you buy.

I would buy a few #40 to ER32 holders, maybe a half dozen or so.  That way you can leave them set up with cutters in them.  Buy one set of ER 32 collets, then a few single collets of the common sizes, 1/4, 3/8, 1/2, and 5/8.  I think we have at least 50 #40 tool holders here, in several different configurations, and just swap them in and out as needed.  There are all kinds of #40 holders available, face mills included.  This will get you started.  

I would buy a 3 inch Criterion boring head. Example: https://www.ajaxtoolsupply.com/cr3bohe1x8th.html  and get a #40 shank for it.  You can get a cheap set of carbide boring bars for it on Amazon, but plan on regrinding them to work properly



Charlieman22 said:


> P.S. Jim - saw your note on autotune. Book says it won't work. It also notes: "set the proper acceleration and deceleration time (P0.11 and P0.12) according to motor inertia before performing auto tuning. Otherwise it may cause over-current and over voltage fault during auto tuning". Wonder if this is my issue.


Maybe, I guess try setting the accel/decel up or down and give it a try.

I have have that exact VFD running my air compressor, but I didn't auto tune mine.  I just set the parameters to match the motor and pressed GO.  I just set it up so a switch closure makes it run and am running it in V/F mode and at 60Hz.  Since you are using the mechanical variable speed, the way you are set now might be fine.


----------



## JimDawson

Charlieman22 said:


> Short edit to above: as I have looked for ER collet tool holders - what I see is "NT" 40 with 16mm thread, and "CAT" 40 with 5/8-11.
> Is it possible that the NT are all metric?  Not sure I have a handle on it completely...



Maybe it's time to pop that draw bar out and find out what you have, should just slide out the top, nothing holds it in.  Either way doesn't really make a difference, you can always make a new draw bar.  I think only the ISO holders are metric, but I'm pretty sure the NMTB are 5/8-11.  But don't hold me to that.  I know everything I have here is 5/8-11

m16x2 = 12.7 TPI vs 11 TPI for the 5/8


----------



## extropic

Excellent progress so far.

Regarding tool holders: we need to KNOW what thread is on the tool holder end of your drawbar.

 I think you mentioned that the power drawbar actuator was removed (for transit?).

Is there a drawbar in the spindle?
If so, pull it out (should just lift out the top of the spindle?). Don't misplace any washers or thrust bearing at top of spindle.
What is the thread on the drawbar? 5/8-11? Great. If not 5/8-11, what is it (diameter and pitch?)? Clean and lubricate as required and replace drawbar into spindle.


----------



## Charlieman22

Apologies gents,
Got so excited about spindles turning - and the thought of actually making first chips - I forgot to post the pictures I shot of the draw bar.

Extropic - thanks.
Chuckle to think where I would be without this forum.
The draw bar pulled right out the top - without issue.  There were no washers or bearings evident - and after I shot pics below - I slid it back in.
Can you clarify - where would any washer's reside? At the top - or down in the sleeve somewhere? 
I used what I believe is a 5/8" -11 nut and it threaded on nicely.
I don't have an SAE thread gauge in that size - so I will double check with a trip to the hardware store - as this is a key issue.
(good recollection - yes - I pulled the power draw bar actuator off to roll it in to the garage with a little extra clearance).

Jim - good stuff - and at this point - I know its time to open up the pocket book a bit...
I think you've outlined it a solid plan - and then I can of course shop for the perfect barn find pot of gold to expand my collection down the road.
Few clarifications below (shocking... I know) and I'll throw it out to the group.


JimDawson said:


> quality import clone


Any favorites?  I am on board with a 6" model.  Should it swivel?


JimDawson said:


> I would buy a 3 inch Criterion boring head.


Sold.


JimDawson said:


> for drilling, and an arbor adaptor for it. There are several different Jacobs tapers for chuck mounting, so you need to get the correct JT to #40 adaptor for the chuck you buy.


Headed to the internet again to see if I can understand enough of this sentence to ask the right follow up question...
Looks like the chucks come without the arbor - sometimes.
Are you saying there is an arbor that screws in to the chuck at one end (JT) - and has a 40 taper that fits up in to my spindle at the other?  Is that what you mean by adapter - or is there an additional piece between my machine and the chuck?
Also - I see Shars caries an all in one type - but not of the brands you mentioned.  
Will hue close to recommendations out of the gate - as I'm flying blind - but this looked interesting from a simplicity standpoint/
https://www.shars.com/5-8-cat40-integrated-precision-ball-bearing-keyless-drill-chuck

Below the draw bar.


----------



## JimDawson

Charlieman22 said:


> Any favorites?  I am on board with a 6" model.  Should it swivel?


I think a swivel base is useless, I may have one around here somewhere but haven't seen it in years.  I probably machine more with stuff clamped to the table rather than working in a vice, but there are times that a vice is the easiest way.



Charlieman22 said:


> Headed to the internet again to see if I can understand enough of this sentence to ask the right follow up question...
> Looks like the chucks come without the arbor - sometimes.
> Are you saying there is an arbor that screws in to the chuck at one end (JT) - and has a 40 taper that fits up in to my spindle at the other?  Is that what you mean by adapter - or is there an additional piece between my machine and the chuck?



The chuck has a mating tapered hole, just held together with friction.  Something like this https://www.shars.com/40-nmtb-6jt-taper-adapter  But there are a dozen or so different Jacobs tapers, so you must match the adaptor to the chuck.



Charlieman22 said:


> Also - I see Shars caries an all in one type - but not of the brands you mentioned.
> Will hue close to recommendations out of the gate - as I'm flying blind - but this looked interesting from a simplicity standpoint/
> https://www.shars.com/5-8-cat40-integrated-precision-ball-bearing-keyless-drill-chuck



Shars seems to be out of stock on most of them.  Check Amazon.  MSC or McMaster are rather more expensive sources.


----------



## Charlieman22

This evening - package arrived with toys - haven't had a chance to open yet - but pictures and fun stuff to follow.
Extropic offered some tooling insights that were quite helpful (thanks!)
Will get back to shopping for some starter items soon.

In the mean time - the following crossed my mind.
When this machine operated as a CNC - it must have held the tables in position with the servos.
There are no locks - which makes sense - so this must be the means.

My question - Jim... - if you are listening.
Rather than make a mechanical set of locks - shouldn't I be able to recreate a "locked" position for the X and Y axis by powering the servos in some manner?

Let me know your thoughts - and if I am way out in left field on this one.

For a change.


----------



## JimDawson

Charlieman22 said:


> My question - Jim... - if you are listening.
> Rather than make a mechanical set of locks - shouldn't I be able to recreate a "locked" position for the X and Y axis by powering the servos in some manner?
> 
> Let me know your thoughts - and if I am way out in left field on this one.



Under most conditions when manually operating no table lock is required, as free as things move, there is still quite a bit of friction.  For drilling and boring operations there is more than enough friction in the system to keep the table positioned.  When I am milling, I normally just rest my hand on the opposing handwheel, this is more than enough to prevent movement in the opposing axis.  A mechanical friction lock could be used on the handwheel that you want to hold.  A small toggle clamp with a piece of belting on it would work, or you could go crazy and use a bicycle brake setup, or a small disk brake on the the motor or ball screw.

It would be possible to electrically ''lock'' an axis by powering up a drive.  Enabling only the drive you want to lock would be a matter of sending the enable signal to only that drive.  The would require that the balance was set very precisely so that the motor doesn't ''drift'' when no command voltage is present.


----------



## Charlieman22

JimDawson said:


> It would be possible to electrically ''lock'' an axis by powering up a drive. Enabling only the drive you want to lock would be a matter of sending the enable signal to only that drive. The would require that the balance was set very precisely so that the motor doesn't ''drift'' when no command voltage is present.


Ok - humor me for a moment on this one.
(not that I didn't like your bike brake/ don't put idea past me!)

Asking for a friend:
Let's say that I am using a boring head - so I don't want movement of any kind in either X or Y.
The head has a pretty good lever hanging out the side with a cutting tool mounted.
That 5 hp motor has no plans to be deterred should my work move...

What is the science behind electronically locking my axis servos?
That is - how is it done?
Is the controller sending plus/minus pulses constantly reversing itself?

Oh - BTW - pic of this evening's arrival.
I love new toys.


----------



## JimDawson

Charlieman22 said:


> What is the science behind electronically locking my axis servos?
> That is - how is it done?
> Is the controller sending plus/minus pulses constantly reversing itself?



With the drive enabled and no commanded movement the motor should theoretically hard lock in place.  In reality this ''lock in place'' is a bit mushy.  So yes, the controller will send out movement commands to correct any drift in either direction.  Those DC motors actually do lock up pretty well, enough so that you can't really feel much movement, but you might be able to see some movement on your DRO, normally in the +/- 0.0002'' range.

Nice package of toys


----------



## Charlieman22

Ok - last lash of this horse.
So is the servo under no power - the tables sitting basically unlocked - but if the table is forced to move from cutting pressure - the controller would fight it with counter inputs?
I had imagined that the motor was somehow simultaneously getting +/- signals, even with no forces on it trying to shift it out of position - thus being "electronically locked".
(vivid imagination).


----------



## JimDawson

Charlieman22 said:


> So is the servo under no power - the tables sitting basically unlocked - but if the table is forced to move from cutting pressure - the controller would fight it with counter inputs?



That is essentially correct.  Assuming the drive is powered up and enabled, if the controller is happy with the position then the controller would be sending 0 volts.  If the commanded position agrees with the current position then the controller applies 0V to the drive.  The controller only applies a command voltage when the current position does not agree with the commanded position, this is called position error.  The magnitude of instantaneous (updated about every 60 micro seconds) error determines the magnitude of the correction voltage that is applied to the command input.

Since your drives are velocity drives, there is another control loop involved from the tach feedback to the drive.  If there is 0 velocity commanded, the drive will also apply a opposing voltage to counter any sensed movement.  However, this is not as sensitive as the encoder feedback at very low speeds.

The above is the simple explanation of what is pretty much happening. This could quickly devolve into the deep dark hole of motion control theory, where ω /V = [Ka Kt /Js]/[1+Ka Kt Kg/Js] = 1/[Kg(sT1+1)].


----------



## Charlieman22

JimDawson said:


> That is essentially correct.  Assuming the drive is powered up and enabled, if the controller is happy with the position then the controller would be sending 0 volts.  If the commanded position agrees with the current position then the controller applies 0V to the drive.  The controller only applies a command voltage when the current position does not agree with the commanded position, this is called position error.  The magnitude of instantaneous (updated about every 60 micro seconds) error determines the magnitude of the correction voltage that is applied to the command input.
> 
> Since your drives are velocity drives, there is another control loop involved from the tach feedback to the drive.  If there is 0 velocity commanded, the drive will also apply a opposing voltage to counter any sensed movement.  However, this is not as sensitive as the encoder feedback at very low speeds.
> 
> The above is the simple explanation of what is pretty much happening. This could quickly devolve into the deep dark hole of motion control theory, where ω /V = [Ka Kt /Js]/[1+Ka Kt Kg/Js] = 1/[Kg(sT1+1)].


Chuckle as you may - that is going on my sheet of mill facts.
You let me creep right up to the edge of the hole.
Got a glimpse of a chamfer most don't know exists.
Thanks for letting me prod a bit.
Excellent explanation.


----------



## Charlieman22

Let the entertainment continue.

Extropic put in some extra time with me - to help me untangle some tooling basics.
Starting to understand how you guys spend so much!
We managed to actually stay on topic for most the time - and it translated to some good base building.
Plenty more needed - but big help.
Thanks!

Speaking of chip making.  
Got some time in this afternoon between calls.
Outcome is not so bad.  
Quill is jogging up and down when told.





Next up when time permits:
1. Control panel has switches that are not connected (only the quill feed speed dial and the joystick for up down motion are).  I would like to wire the VFD to the other three switches.  Speed control, Forward/off/Reverse nob, and Emergency stop.  Below I show the face of the controls, and the backs of the knobs/buttons.  Jim - if you aren't worn to the bone yet... 
2.  DRO install.  Considering taking out the angle grinder and just lopping off the big ass display that is there now.   I am no fan of the box either - but for the time being - it is functional.  It's not like I couldn't just weld the big display box back on if I was to get rid of both boxes.  Anyone want to protest before the angle grinder comes out?

Pics below of the front of the machine.
parts slowly being cleaned and re-installed.
Little before and after no the limit switch box - as morale booster.
Long way to go.

Before:
	

		
			
		

		
	




After:



Front of control panel.  Only the joy stick and the knob to its right are wired.



Other three knobs/buttons.  All 220V
	

		
			
		

		
	











Below is the wiring for the emergency stop.


----------



## JimDawson

I think this will work.

On the VFD, jump +24V to PW

Connect COM to 2 on the E-stop switch
Connect 1 on the E-stop switch to 3 and 4 on the bottom of the For/Rev switch
Connect 3 from the top of the For/Rev switch to S1 on the VFD
Connect 4 from the top of the For/Rev switch to S2 on the VFD

Connect one side of the speed control pot to +10V on the VFD
Connect the other side of the speed control pot to GND on the VFD, this the analog GND, not earth ground (PE)
Connect the center terminal on the speed control pot to AI1 on the VFD
Make sure to set jumper J16 to V
If the speed control is backwards, then swap the +10V and GND wires.

Set P5.01 = 1, S1 = Run Forward
Set P5.02 = 2, S2 = Run Reverse

See P5.10, Terminal Control Mode
Set P5.10 = 0

Run Command Source
Set P0.01 = 1, Terminal

Frequency Command Source
Set P0.07 = 1, AI1


----------



## Charlieman22

Ok - good news - I understood most.
Questions here: 


JimDawson said:


> On the VFD, jump +24V to PW Clear
> 
> Connect COM to 2 on the E-stop switch Clear
> Connect 1 on the E-stop switch to 3 and 4 on the bottom of the For/Rev switch Estop has three colors.  Which are you referring to as "1 on the Estop"?
> Connect 3 from the top of the For/Rev switch to S1 on the VFD Clear
> Connect 4 from the top of the For/Rev switch to S2 on the VFD Clear
> 
> Connect one side of the speed control pot to +10V on the VFD Clear
> Connect the other side of the speed control pot to GND on the VFD, this the analog GND, not earth ground (PE) I have two GND marked A & B below (and one E).  Can this go to either A or B?
> Connect the center terminal on the speed control pot to AI1 on the VFD Clear
> Make sure to set jumper J16 to V. Didn't understand this.  Are there dip switches somewhere?  Not sure where Jumper J16 is?
> If the speed control is backwards, then swap the +10V and GND wires. Clear






All below clear.


JimDawson said:


> Set P5.01 = 1, S1 = Run Forward
> Set P5.02 = 2, S2 = Run Reverse
> 
> See P5.10, Terminal Control Mode
> Set P5.10 = 0
> 
> Run Command Source
> Set P0.01 = 1, Terminal
> 
> Frequency Command Source
> Set P0.07 = 1, AI1


----------



## JimDawson

OK, sorry.

Green to COM on the VFD
Blue to the For/Rev switch

I would use A for the GND for the pot

Not sure where J16 is, maybe that jumper just to the left of the control terminals?  I may have an older manual, so maybe they did something different on the newer units.  Maybe check your manual.


----------



## Charlieman22

Ok - here it is - hiding in plane site like Waldo.
Manual gives some cryptic advice - I've circled.
Perhaps you can decipher?
Red arrow spots the jumper.



Instructions for how to get to V are a little vague to me


----------



## JimDawson

Look on the right side of the page, J15, and J17.  Looks like the "V'' is the delta, so looks like it is set to V

Also look at the bottom right of the page, J1


----------



## Charlieman22

Shot a note to the company last night - but no response yet.
I'll keep an eye out.
Also used my electronic microscope to look at the board.
Suspect they printed under where the electronics go.
IDK.
Not evident.
I do see a delta shaped arrow.
Does this have meaning to you?


----------



## JimDawson

Pretty sure the delta is the V, look at J17


----------



## Charlieman22

Thanks.
Yep - I see J17 is also set to the delta.
Weird the manual doesn't mention anything about either I can find.
In any event - I can get started on the wiring.

Any suggestion on type and gauge of wiring one uses to run from VFD to knobs and switches?


----------



## JimDawson

The wiring diagram page gives you some hints if you compare the documentation to the board.  It is not very clear and requires a little deductive reasoning to figure it out.  Could have been done better.

I normally use 20 or 22 AWG shielded cable.


----------



## Charlieman22

Oooo.
Sluethy.
Yes - the delta seems to correspond with the V on J17 & J15 in the manual.
They apparently left out those markings for J16... there is no V or I.
I am going with delta = V.

BTW - is this just 24 volt going to my switches?
I expected it to be full voltage somehow.
Stay tuned - when work permits - I will wire up and we might have a functioning mill - of sorts.


----------



## JimDawson

Yes, 24V, supplied by the VFD.  Do not use the 24V VFD supply for anything else.


----------



## Charlieman22

JimDawson said:


> Yes, 24V, supplied by the VFD. Do not use the 24V VFD supply for anything else.


Ok - good head's up.
I COULD however add a three way switch - as a servo selector - to allow all other servo'd axis to be moved with power?
That would complete my control panel for manual.


----------



## JimDawson

Charlieman22 said:


> I COULD however add a three way switch - as a servo selector - to allow all other servo'd axis to be moved with power?
> That would complete my control panel for manual.



Yes, you could wire up something like that.  Maybe I am misunderstanding, but that has nothing to do with the VFD, no connection at all.


----------



## Charlieman22

Snort laugh.
Your right - was so concentrated on tackling that though along with the other wiring - forgot it's two totally different systems.
But now that you mention - what a shame I can't use the VFD to power - so I don't have to have an additional power supply.
Would it overload my VFD to steel 24V from it?
My plug in power supply gives me 30 - which moves the access at a reasonable top speed - and seems to control slow movement pretty nicely too.


----------



## JimDawson

Charlieman22 said:


> Would it overload my VFD to steel 24V from it?


Yes, that 24V supply on the VFD is only good for about 100mA.  Fine for the VFD control circuit, but not for anything else.



Charlieman22 said:


> My plug in power supply gives me 30 - which moves the access at a reasonable top speed - and seems to control slow movement pretty nicely too.


I'm not sure how you have that wired up to your Z axis, but I think it would work fine on the X and Y also.  As you suggested, a selector switch.


----------



## Janderso

Charlieman22 said:


> Well, the stand(s) are ready.
> I appreciate the good input and challenges.
> Was helpful.
> 
> I have a truck with a trailer parked out front, and tomorrow is D Day.
> Knuckles are cut.
> Back is sore.
> Beer is cold.
> 
> To end my night, I had a tiny metal splinter find its way in to my foot.
> I'm sure I'm not the first...
> The damn thing was almost invisible to the eye - but not to the mind.  Ouch.
> Unable to see it like a normal splinter - I pulled out my $30 electronic microscope.
> Do you guys have one of these?
> I use it for everything - they are -  incredible.
> When I start milling - I will use it to show some detail - and you guys can tell me what I am doing wrong.
> Smooth surfaces look like the moon surface.
> 
> Below a few pictures on the eve of pick up for your viewing pleasure.
> 
> 
> Current face milling technique:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 367413
> 
> 
> 
> Face mill tools.  I have a bunch already.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 367414
> 
> 
> And of course - the rolling stand(s).  Just about complete.
> Plan is to cut some angles on the leveling feet extensions/ prime/ install.
> View attachment 367416


Charlieman,
What did I miss? What are you fabricating> It's looking really good.
Nice welding table. Certi-flat?


----------



## Charlieman22

JimDawson said:


> I'm not sure how you have that wired up to your Z axis,


My quill is powered with it's servo.
The knee is powered with my back...
I assume that if I want powered Z for CNC in future - we will add some form of standard external Z powered axis servo.

Will shoot another little video if/when successful with operation.
I have some basic tools on the way as noted - so I might be able to actually drill something.

Then it's DRO.  I'll cue that up here for feedback, before I start taping stuff in place.


----------



## Papa Charlie

@Charlieman22 

Been following your progress. Looking real good. I am amazed at the progress you have made in such a short period of time. 

Great job!


----------



## Charlieman22

Janderso said:


> Charlieman,
> What did I miss? What are you fabricating> It's looking really good.
> Nice welding table. Certi-flat?


Thanks!
It's a certiflat - good eye.  It's been super nice to work with.
Bit of a gateway drug to the milling machine I think.

This whole adventure started because I did some welding on my prized Vespa motor cases.
Prized Vespa below - any excuse to post a pic...
I went to get cases milled - and almost ended up buying the guy's milling machine...  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 
Rabbit hole entered - ended in me finding this mill for free.

Welded up some rolling independent stands - prior page - to carry this beast - and then rolled it in the garage.
Team here (largely Jim and Extropic) have been trying to help me get my swimming legs.

All sorts on the fab list.
Currently working to make the mill function as manual - and then will determine CNC options in future.
Fabrication list includes some custom parts for the sidecar connection on scoot (note that the scoot can lean independently of the sidecar).
I built the frame to allow this - and works great - but my tools have improved and I have it on my radar for a slicker execution on finish/fit for next round.


Papa Charlie said:


> @Charlieman22
> 
> Been following your progress. Looking real good. I am amazed at the progress you have made in such a short period of time.
> 
> Great job!


Thank you!  Hungry to make this thing work - though my pesky paying job(s) have really been in the way!
BTW - 5 Hobby Machinest stars for your correct assertion that the frames would be stable without a connecting mount.
Credit where due!

Below - gratuitous posting of vespa project.
Coming soon: Actual milling how-to questions!
Thanks all.


----------



## JimDawson

Charlieman22 said:


> My quill is powered with it's servo.


I meant I'm not sure how your quill axis is wired up.  Since the quill axis is normally the one that the computer controls, we just call that the Z axis.  Where the knee is the ''knee axis''.  If you noticed my software, the DRO display has X, Y, Z, K(nee), and R(otary).  The rotary axis is the 4th axis and can be oriented to function as a A, B, or C axis.  The A axis is the rotational component of the X axis, the B axis is the rotational component of the Y axis, and the C axis is the rotational component of the Z axis.


Charlieman22 said:


> The knee is powered with my back...
> I assume that if I want powered Z for CNC in future - we will add some form of standard external Z powered axis servo.


I have a Servo brand power feed on my knee, saves the back 



Charlieman22 said:


> Then it's DRO.  I'll cue that up here for feedback, before I start taping stuff in place.



My knee axis, note the location of the jack screws next to the mounting bolts, the orientation is important.  Made from 1/2x2 1/2'' aluminum.



My X axis



My Y axis




And the Z axis (quill)



And another Z (quill) axis that is a little closer to your machine.


----------



## Charlieman22

Good primer on DRO.
Lightbulb went off on Z axis (final shot).
Will look in that area for opportunity for mine.

Y axis is a little hard to decipher local of photo.
But I get basic gist.
Magnetic tape appears to have peal and stick feature.
I'll acetone wipe machine before applying.

Stainless metal strip - which appears to cover tape? - is less obvious for adhering.
Can you walk me through the very basic steps of applying tape and stainless cover?
I'll do a layout and post for critique before install of readers/tape position.


----------



## JimDawson

Speaking of CNC and motion control, this article just popped up in my inbox.  Does a pretty good job of describing the theory, down the deep dark hole we go  https://www.codeproject.com/Articles/863257/Simple-Software-for-Optimal-Control

Yes, it is peel & stick.  Alcohol might be a better choice, any residue won't damage the sticky stuff.  The stainless cover is also peel & stick.  You can also use alcohol to wipe the mag strip before applying the cover tape.

My mill has a nice machined (but painted) surface on the knee casting, below the Y saddle, so I just stuck the tape there.  The read head is just attached to the bottom of the Y saddle.  It's been working fine for about 7 years.  Your machine is probably similar, same manufacturer, Topwell in Taiwan.

Mount the heads first.

Locate the maximum travel points relative to the read heads. Cut the tape to length first, your maximum travel plus an inch or so on either end.  

Then use your fingers as a guide to center the tape on the read head.  Peel a little bit of the backing paper, stick the tape, move the table a bit, rinse/repeat.


----------



## Charlieman22

JimDawson said:


> Speaking of CNC and motion control, this article just popped up in my inbox. Does a pretty good job of describing the theory, down the deep dark hole we go  https://www.codeproject.com/Articles/863257/Simple-Software-for-Optimal-Control


Great.


JimDawson said:


> Mount the heads first.


Ooh.  Mill DRO install fact.  Like.

Question - how much gap should there be between reader and metal tape cover?


----------



## JimDawson

Charlieman22 said:


> Question - how much gap should there be between reader and metal tape cover?



I use a 0.010'' feeler gauge to set mine.


----------



## extropic

@Charlieman22 

I couldn't find a posted link to the joystick you're using.
Please post a link.
TIA


----------



## Charlieman22

Jim - Below your written out schematic.
Question: 
There are 3 wires coming off the E stop.  I have direction below for the green and blue wires on the E stop.  Is the white unused?

On the VFD, jump +24V to PW

Connect COM to 2 on the E-stop switch (GREEN)
Connect 1 on the E-stop switch to 3 and 4 on the bottom of the For/Rev switch (BLUE)
Connect 3 from the top of the For/Rev switch to S1 on the VFD
Connect 4 from the top of the For/Rev switch to S2 on the VFD

Connect one side of the speed control pot to +10V on the VFD
Connect the other side of the speed control pot to GND on the VFD, this the analog GND, not earth ground (PE)
Connect the center terminal on the speed control pot to AI1 on the VFD
Make sure to set jumper J16 to V
If the speed control is backwards, then swap the +10V and GND wires.

Set P5.01 = 1, S1 = Run Forward
Set P5.02 = 2, S2 = Run Reverse

See P5.10, Terminal Control Mode
Set P5.10 = 0

Run Command Source
Set P0.01 = 1, Terminal

Frequency Command Source
Set P0.07 = 1, AI1


Link to joystick:  
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07QLSJZL3/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## JimDawson

Charlieman22 said:


> Question:
> There are 3 wires coming off the E stop. I have direction below for the green and blue wires on the E stop. Is the white unused?



The white wire is not used.


----------



## Charlieman22

JimDawson said:


> The white wire is not used.


Well - in that case - we should turn some knobs and see if your wiring plan and programing are any good.






We are here.
Kinda remarkable.


----------



## JimDawson




----------



## Charlieman22

JimDawson said:


>


Hahaha.
exactly.
Our little project is coming along pretty well.
And we haven't even added the foot pedal yet.
 (kidding.  Kidding!)

DRO for X & Y look executable.
Question on the Z though.
I seem to have 3 limit switches on the Z.
One is dead smack in the way of executing as you did.
Frankly not sure why there would be a need for it.
One on the top left would be in the way of putting the DRO there.
I'm thinking the Quill DRO will be pretty crucial given that I have no tactile feel with my system.


----------



## JimDawson

I think you can safely remove the left switch, it appears to be the home switch, not needed.

EDIT:  Don't remove the wires for that switch, we may use them later.

Now we can open up the can of worms discussion about why home switches are or are not needed on a knee mill.     (They are not, unless you have a automatic tool changer)


----------



## Charlieman22

JimDawson said:


> EDIT: Don't remove the wires for that switch, we may use them later.
> 
> Now we can open up the can of worms discussion about why home switches are or are not needed on a knee mill.  (They are not, unless you have a automatic tool changer)


Wait - Im not going to have an automatic tool changer?
How are these tools going to get themselves changed ?!

Currently I have the worlds largest 220 fused disconnect box on side of this mill.
Let's say I would like to remove the boxes as part of my DRO install - and while I sort out the CNC plan.
This would also put me in position to consider any additional clean up and/or paint.

Besides the challenge of removing what I am guessing is 300+ lbs of steel - can I get a recommendation or link on a  slick all in one fused disconnect box I might be able to install on the wall or side of machine?
Not really sure what specs I am after.

Asking for a friend.


----------



## JimDawson

I would mount something like this on the wall near the mill, next to the plug.  https://www.amazon.com/SIEMENS-Gene...ps=1&sprefix=fused+disconnect,aps,219&sr=8-12

Breaker>Disconnect Switch>Plugin.  This is the way I do it in my shop.


----------



## extropic

You wanted fuses, right?






						Square D by Schneider Electric D221NCP 30-Amp 240-Volt Two-Pole Indoor General Duty Fusible Safety Switch with Neutral - Circuit Breakers - Amazon.com
					

Square D by Schneider Electric D221NCP 30-Amp 240-Volt Two-Pole Indoor General Duty Fusible Safety Switch with Neutral - Circuit Breakers - Amazon.com



					www.amazon.com


----------



## Charlieman22

Grabbed 60amp fused form local supply house.
All they had.

Took a look at the power draw bar.
Was a bit sticky - and all the hoses are rotted.
Started taking it apart to clean and service - and the next thing I knew - I had the polishing wheel out.

So, for your Friday evening viewing pleasure:


Ready for install.


----------



## Charlieman22

Well - perhaps we have our first snafu - of many to come I'm sure.
I am working to install the DRO head and tape.
A closer look at what they sent - I have magnetic tape with a metal backer - and a peal and stick on the back of that metal.
I also have some stainless steel.
The stainless is nearly 2x the width of the magnetic tape - and does not appear to have any means to adhere it.
I have scratched at the surface to check for a clear layer of film that would peal back - but it does not exist.
Suspect one or the other of these parts is incorrect?

Below - magnetic tape on left has metal adhered to its back, and then a peal and stick under that.


----------



## JimDawson

The stainless cover band is not correct.  It should have been 10mm wide with a sticky back.


----------



## Charlieman22

Thanks Jim.
Is there a name for this stuff - that I might search to see if I can find supply stateside?
I can of course write the seller as well.


----------



## JimDawson

Stainless steel tape is all I know.


----------



## Charlieman22

Ok - Ditron got back to me quickly on the tape.
Have to say - their customer service has been top notch so far.

Turns out they don't do a narrow tape.
They may have the wider tape with adhesive.
Search around internets does not yield 10mm stainless adhesive backed tapes either.
So may need to consider other options.

To make sure I understand - I assume that the steel tape is there for protection, in lieu of the aluminum extrusions?
I certainly like it for it's clean look.
Considering opting for the aluminum extrusion solution - or perhaps a wider magnetic tape and matching steel tape with adhesive.

Having spent some time examining my options on the machine - I think the aluminum extrusion might help with quill and knee axis.
Up for debate if it helps or hinders X and Y axis.

Current thinking.
Go back to Ditron and request:
 - Set of aluminum extrusions, 33, 15, 17, 10 inch.  These are the actual travel for each of my axis (other than the 10 for quill)
 - Perhaps some wider magnetic tape and matching stainless cover with adhesive for axis that are better served without the additional extrusions.

Would leave options open for install.
Any thoughts on this before I pull trigger?


----------



## JimDawson

Yes the SS tape is for the protection of the mag tape.  Required even with the aluminum extrusions.

Their left hand does not know what their right hand is doing.  They have the 10mm wide ''cover band''.  There is no separate part number, it is part of the 10mm wide mag strip kit, which consists of, the mag strip attached to the SS base tape, and the cover band which is identical to the SS base tape.  I have purchased this from them a few times.


----------



## Charlieman22

JimDawson said:


> Yes the SS tape is for the protection of the mag tape.  Required even with the aluminum extrusions.
> 
> Their left hand does not know what their right hand is doing.  They have the 10mm wide ''cover band''.  There is no separate part number, it is part of the 10mm wide mag strip kit, which consists of, the mag strip attached to the SS base tape, and the cover band which is identical to the SS base tape.  I have purchased this from them a few times.


Hmmm.
Wouldn't discount the possibility it's me that has this confused - but I don't think so.

Mag tape has metal already adhered to it.
There is then an adhesive on the back of that metal making a total of three layers to the sandwich: mag>metal>adhesive.
I see others selling it as metal>mag>metal>adhesive all in 1.
But surely Ditron must offer metal to cover the tape they sell??!!

I have looked at their site - amazon - and AliExpress.  Don't see them explicitly showing.
Any chance you have a link of some kind?

*EDIT

Ahhh - I think they may not offer it the way you purchased in the past.
Now looking - the steel appears to be a slide in - for their aluminum extruded base.
See pic below - at least this is one set up that they offer...
May or may not preclude the other you are referring to.

From AliExpress


----------



## Charlieman22

Ok - edited above but I keep finding new links - should have just unearthed all this first.
I found an additional picture - which shows they sell a magnetic tape all in one - with "two sides" metal covering.
This is what they should have sent me when I asked for no aluminum extrusion bases.
Left hand right hand.

So - I think I will ask them for some of this tape and an extrusion for my knee axis.
Should allow me to execute nicely and in low profile.
DRO set back a little - but perhaps this untangles.

Their reference to 1mm pole must be the 1uM offering.


----------



## JimDawson

For 1um you want the 2mm pitch tape for use with the 1um read heads.









						MS200 Magnetic Scale or Tape for Renishaw LM10 Encoder or WMEH2530 Encoder,2mm  | eBay
					

You can buy Renishaw LM10 (1um resolution). The magnetic material is magnetised in defined and even distances and. 2 - A magnetised steel tape used to create a shield against any external magnetic disturb.



					www.ebay.com
				




Buying from the above guy is a bit problematic, I think he orders from China and drop ships.  I have bought from him before, took a long time.  He may have 1 meter kits in stock, but I ordered a single 4 meter roll and it took a long time to get it.  You can also order from Renishaw.  Ditron makes their own I think.

Are you dealing directly with  Jaeger Hou at Ditron?  He knows what to send, use my name, I have been dealing with him for a long time.


----------



## Charlieman22

JimDawson said:


> Are you dealing directly with  Jaeger Hou at Ditron?  He knows what to send, use my name, I have been dealing with him for a long time.


I am dealing with their outward facing customer service gal - Kate.
I will suggest the she contacts Jeager Hou to clarify - thanks!
Curious - when you bought from them in the past - did the magnetic tape come with the steel already adhered like I show in that picture - as opposed to separately in a roll that you had to then peal and stick to your magnetic strip?


----------



## JimDawson

The cover band is separate.  And you peel and stick after you install the mag tape.


----------



## Charlieman22

Have been chipping away at the details.
 - Machine is now wired with selector switch - moving the DC power between servos. (more on that in a minute).
 - Dug in to the wiring - realized separate conduit to servos just for encoder.  Since encoder's won't be used, removed.
 - DRO on hold until they send me the proper steel with peal off backing.
 - Some tools and clamping kit arrived - and... we have ignition!
Yes.  It's just a hole.
However - thought y'all may have insights - good or bad - on how you see my feed method and speeds.





Am now looking for advice and help in a couple areas.

After installing the selector switch, servos are not moving reliably at low speed settings - like they did when powered separately without selector.  Presume I've added too much resistance through either longer wiring runs (home run) or the switch itself - or both.  
How could I improve?
 - Is this an Amp issue vs a Volt issue *(I've tried a power supply with 50amp and 15V and a 30V 10amp.  Both suffer same in this set up).
 - How might I optimize - slow feed is nice for control.

Control board.
Left top potentiometer is for spindle speed.
Left middle is servo selector switch home run to box - then out to servos.  Note - existing servos wiring is about 14 or 16 gauge and runs from main box to servos, however, I used 20/4 for running form switches to control box.
Left bottom is servo speed control
Right top - emergency stop
Right middle - spindle direction
Right bottom - Servo up down or left right when selected with left middle selector switch.


Switch specs


----------



## JimDawson

I would use the 30Vm 10 amp supply.  20 ga is too small for the motor power wires, should be at least 16ga, better at 14 ga.  As far as low speed performance, It could be a limitation of a cheap speed controller, but also could be affected by the wire size.  Not sure.


----------



## Charlieman22

JimDawson said:


> I would use the 30Vm 10 amp supply.  20 ga is too small for the motor power wires, should be at least 16ga, better at 14 ga.  As far as low speed performance, It could be a limitation of a cheap speed controller, but also could be affected by the wire size.  Not sure.


Thanks Jim.
Couple good things happening.
I'm now getting pretty cozy with how the original wiring was - and what's what.
Controls are actually quite nice right there in front of me.  

Finding a selector with 4 total poles was tougher than I had imagined!
Will stick with the 30/10 and start by upping the wire gauge and see if I can get some better performance.
Perhaps I can find a better switch if not.

Kind of like the set up from a user interface standpoint - would be nice if I can get it to be a bit more responsive.


----------



## Charlieman22

Gents,
Back from picking up my kid - who was on the East coast...
Great drive.  
Happy to be home.

Returned to find a stack of boxes full of tooling bits and bobs ordered before I left.
Excited to get back to it - and plan to use it for a project as a first test.
Read: plenty of questions to come as we recommission the beast.

Have been keeping my eyes out as well for a lathe as I traveled.
This one is on my radar.
Looking for a bit of feedback before I pursue.
Weird to me that it's two different colors.
Any comments or questions I should ask before I contact seller?

"Logan lathe for sale asking $2200 or best offer. Have tooling that goes with lathe, no I wont sell tooling seperate. Lathe is wired for 220 single phase just plug into the wall and go to work. Moving soon so need to sell."


----------



## mattthemuppet2

not a terrible deal, depending on what tooling comes with it - I'd want a 4 jaw too for that price. The steady rest looks home made, which is novel. 
Turret tailstock is a neat addition if you're likely to do short runs of identical parts.

you should contact Ulmadoc, he's got a hounds nose for finding great tool deals.


----------



## Charlieman22

Thanks Matt.
Agreed - I'd probably give it a pass at this price - but its been up for a while - so I'm assuming it's negotiable.

I was trying to get a read on why the two tailstock components are a different color - perhaps they were found/additions.
Just trying to generate enough conversation on this one to get myself up to speed a bit.

Much appreciated.
-CM


----------



## matthewsx

For $2200 I'd be looking for a worthy counterpart to your mill. If you have the space larger lathes 16" + come up for surprisingly good prices fairly often. If you push your budget a little you can get something bigger.









						Leblond engine Lathe for sale - tools - by owner - sale
					

This leblond lathe runs perfect ,it is under power for testing. call ask for LEN



					sacramento.craigslist.org
				












						CADILLAC 22" x 49" MANUAL ENGINE LATHE 10HP, KDK Tool Post,...
					

This lathe machine is in good running condition. Recently re-painted. Available to view under power. FEATURES 10HP Main motor Hardened and ground bed ways 12 Speeds KDK Quick change tool post...



					losangeles.craigslist.org
				




If you fancy a Logan I'd be onto this one.

https://losangeles.craigslist.org/lgb/tls/d/compton-logan-10-lathe/7346078140.html 

Or this one's been on for a while, might be worn beyond usefulness but might be worth a look.









						Metal Lathe Monarch - tools - by owner - sale
					

Monarch metal lathe. Very large out of working machine shop. has a 6” belt sand attached for smoothing. can remove it. 480v 3 phase. call. i can load it $1600 will sell sander separate



					sacramento.craigslist.org
				




John


----------



## Charlieman22

Thanks John!

Ideal world - proper counter part to my mill would be my move.
However - I'm tight for space.
My thinking is to make my mill more compact in long run - smaller box on side.

I could work in a lathe - and I don't just want a craftsman atlas 6"... but smaller footprint is what I am thinking.
No special love for Logan - just happens to be available and about max on size.

The second Logan you posted had caught my eye.
Will need some work... and tough to know if it's all there or not as not operational.
Might also contact that guy and see what I learn.

Appreciate you weighing in.
-CM


----------



## mattthemuppet2

skip that second Logan, no tailstock.

If you can, you want an estate sale type deal, where you can buy the lathe AND the tooling. You can easily spend as much as your purchase price on tooling if the lathe is barebones.


----------



## matthewsx

mattthemuppet2 said:


> skip that second Logan, no tailstock.
> 
> If you can, you want an estate sale type deal, where you can buy the lathe AND the tooling. You can easily spend as much as your purchase price on tooling if the lathe is barebones.


Sorry, didn’t catch that.

You could always buy both


----------



## Charlieman22

Ok you guys - good stuff.
Thanks.
My takeaway was - if the Logan was $1200 - everyone would have given it the nod.
At $2200 - not so much.
I'll continue the hunt.


----------



## Charlieman22

Charlieman22 said:


> My takeaway was - if the Logan was $1200 - everyone would have given it the nod.
> At $2200 - not so much.
> I'll continue the hunt.


Well...
Woke up this morning to an alert for a Logan 920 lathe.
91 year old passed away.
Various tooling.
3 and 4 jaw chuck.
Plugs in and runs.
$1200.

It was like someone read our conversation, and then wrote their add to match.
Owned for 40yrs by same guy in his garage.
Not used for last 10-15 years - and lightly used prior.
Don't know it's history beyond that - am sure it has some miles on it.

All comments/suggestions/insights/I told you so's/ are welcome.
I have a few questions (of course...)
I have the day tomorrow in the garage - so if you see something missing - or half there - let me know.
I will have a chance to rummage around a little to see if I can find it.

Oh, and you can assume I don't know what the items are from the boxes - so feel free to label - explain as you see fit.
Pics below.
Thanks!
-CM






Can anyone identify what the tool on the right is?  Does it belong to the lathe?  Was it part of a shop smith?


	

		
			
		

		
	
What is the disc in the center used for?
The 4 jaw chuck has independent action for each of the jaws.  Not sure if that is desirable or not.
I could not find a brand on the 4 jaw. 
The three jaw is a Logan.



The drill type chucks are both made by Jacobs.
Can anyone identify the round item with holes?  What did that go to?










	

		
			
		

		
	
I could probably buy this vise cheaply. Think it is missing the swivel base - but I suspect I could find it. only 3.5" jaws.


----------



## extropic

The "tool on the right" is a lever type collet closer. Not part of a Shop Smith. It looks in filthy shape and I don't know if it fits that lathe. look for a collection of collets. Maybe in the green drawers? A new lever type collet closer would cost more than $1200.
I don't know that model lathe but if it runs, for $1200, with all the tooling it's a great starter for you to learn things like 4 jaw independent chucks are fundamental and good.

Don't know what you mean by cheap for the vise. Popular (good) brand/model. Check eBay for resale prices.


----------



## Charlieman22

extropic said:


> look for a collection of collets. Maybe in the green drawers? A new lever type collet closer would cost more than $1200.


Wow on value. 

Good thought on finding collets!  
I saw the collet holder in the tools - so seems unlikely he would have the holder and the closer without any collets.
I already looked in the drawers - nothing there.
There is a large tool box in the garage - I bet there are some collets to be found.
Nice catch.
I'll look.


extropic said:


> The "tool on the right" is a lever type collet closer. Not part of a Shop Smith. It looks in filthy shape and I don't know if it fits that lathe.


No other lathe type machine in there - so probably is for this one.
The son in law said it was on the shelf under the Logan - so he thought it must go with it.



extropic said:


> Don't know what you mean by cheap for the vise. Popular (good) brand/model. Check eBay for resale prices.


Ok - will have a look.
No idea what he wants for it - will have to ask.

Thanks for weighing in.
Good stuff as usual.


----------



## extropic

Regarding the collet closer (CC); in the wooden holder, at the end of the chip tray, the flange looking thing with 16 holes may be part of the collet closer.
If it fits over the CC tube and there is a pin (or more) inside the largest diameter part of the CC (to engage w/ the holes) keep it with the CC.

PS: I don't recognize that particular design CC. I don't think it's Royal or JFK. Maybe a Logan factory option/design. If you buy the package, you should open a new thread in the Logan specific sub-forum to take advantage of the Logan experts that may not follow this thread.


----------



## Charlieman22

extropic said:


> Regarding the collet closer (CC); in the wooden holder, at the end of the chip tray, the flange looking thing with 16 holes may be part of the collet closer.
> If it fits over the CC tube and there is a pin (or more) inside the largest diameter part of the CC (to engage w/ the holes) keep it with the CC.
> 
> PS: I don't recognize that particular design CC. I don't think it's Royal or JFK. Maybe a Logan factory option/design. If you buy the package, you should open a new thread in the Logan specific sub-forum to take advantage of the Logan experts that may not follow this thread.


Good thoughts and thanks.
Will post now - looks like pick up day will be Saturday - so I have a day to gain any other feedback.


----------



## extropic

I should have mentioned this earlier. Make a deal on any useful raw stock that you find at pick-up.
Material is, IMHO, is crazy expensive these days. I'd probably pay $1 a pound for anything clean and neat. You might find a ton for $100.


----------



## Charlieman22

Plan currently is to do some digging around once I am there.  Hadn't even consider any raw stock - but its on the list now.


----------



## Charlieman22

Short update.
Been a while - as I have gotten side tracked on a lathe, here: https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/new-to-me-11-logan-920.93841/page-7#post-869233
Jim's DRO works a charm!
Install is some work - tight quarters - but I am happy with the outcome.
Have a slick solution for the quill (Z) but haven't fully executed the finish yet - so holding on that until I can share pretty pictures.

Excellent to have DRO operational.
Unfortunately - lathe is now in middle of garage as I re-org.
Looking forward to getting back to this project soon.
Lathe up and running will allow me to make screw extension/ add handles.


----------



## Charlieman22

Been a while.
Was on my way to the gas station for cigarettes - and just kept driving... or something along those lines.
Actually - I went down a lathe rabbit hole - and when I got to the darkest deepest place - I saw a second hole - and took that one as well.
Happy to say, I'm back.
Quick recap in pictures.
Bought this:


Turned it into this:




But then I discovered these existed:




And this came available at a great price I couldn't say no to - so I said yes!



Though it required that I buy two other mills - which I dutifully loaded up



And sold before they even left my tailer. 


There was one point, about two weekends ago, where I owned three mills and two lathes all at once - and within 24 hours I was back down to my target one lathe one mill...  Could hardly move for 2 days after all that loading and unloading.

Anyhow - having caught everyone up on the goings on - I've spent the last few days making parts and working with the machines.
Nothing like a project to really learn what's working - and what's not.

The mill is good - but has some issues I would like to address.
1.  Table movement with my cheap DC power supply is ok - but spindle is inconsistent.  Doesn't run well when I turn down the rheostat.  Need that slow movement to be smooth.  Considering something like this as a more powerful drive - but hesitant until I have a better long term plan.  


2. Though it's mostly minor - I HATE the big ass control box that hangs over the table.  What a terrible idea.  Makes my work dark as a cave - and is a constant hinderance to peering in to take readings.  Not to mention its only a matter of time until the corner of that thing rips my scalp.
3.  The tools stick in the spindle taper.  I have to whack the draw bar with a mallet to knock them out.
4. (related I suspect) Their is some run out - about .0015 inside the spindle - and at least twice that when a tool is inserted.  Picture below and some video.  It looks to me like there is some galling - though not terrible - inside the spindle.  Probably a few high spots causing me issues I suspect.
Picture is rather poor - but you can see some markings.



Here is a video showing the run out.
Spindle:
Spindle: 



Tool holder: 




Looking for input on severity of spindle issue.
The non-self releasing factor has held me from rigging up the power draw bar unit I have - but perhaps that would do the job of pressing down hard enough on the draw bar to help remove the tool.  Will test.

Let me know your thoughts on the value of having the spindle ground - have the name of a mobile guy that works this area.  Braced for just how expensive that might be...

Thanks for taking the time to have a look.

-CM


----------



## Steve-F

Love that Monarch!!!


----------



## DiscoDan

The red one came out nice! Check out Four Ponds Shop on YouTube because he has already restored a Monarch and is restoring two others. He doesn't go into a lot of detail but he makes them look damn pretty.


----------



## Papa Charlie

Also love the Monarch. What is the spindle bore on those 10EE's?


----------



## Charlieman22

Well - I am glad to see I am not the only one smitten by the Monarch.
Hooked by the Art Deco look - but blown away by how nice it is to use.
Extremely solid and precise - smooth.
Shaky picture on Ebay - no description - no response to questions - less than $3K.
On a whim - hit buy now.
Turns out to run nicely - and has a Sabina digital drive.
The seller was 80 - had used it for 30 years in garage as hobbyist - and just wasn't very good at posting pictures.
I helped him unload all his machinery - and he gave me a really nice deal.

Dan - I have been watching his series.  He does a super nice job on finish and cleaning and bringing back to original.
Charlie - not sure on the taper on the 10EE  (my taper issue is on the mill).
10EE will get is's own thread when I get there.
Right now - using it to help get my scooter back on the road - and get a feel for it's operational condition.


----------



## extropic

I agree that the runout is a problem needing attention. The picture of the taper isn't helpful to me. You said "galling" but the indicator shows a very smooth eccentricity. Not jumpy needle movement from small surface anomalies. I would do a more comprehensive survey of the taper by recording the TIR at 3 or 4 widely spaced circular elements (as high on the taper as I can reach, and down to the largest diameter. Just want more data.


----------



## Charlieman22

Ext - I'll give that a go with a more thorough set of reads as you suggest.
Have it up later today with a little luck.


----------



## JimDawson

That Monarch is an awesome find.  

Please refresh my memory on how you are controlling your axis motors, and let's see if we can get things smoothed out a bit.


----------



## extropic

Charlieman22 said:


> Ext - I'll give that a go with a more thorough set of reads as you suggest.
> Have it up later today with a little luck.


 I was in a hurry earlier and was not as specific as I intended.
I suggest the following:
Remove the drive lugs from the spindle nose (just to get them out of the way).
Make circular chart (similar to an analog clock face) with degrees indicated in 45° or 30° increments.
Double faced tape the chart to the face of your spindle and cut the center out to max taper diameter.
Record the indicator readings for each rotational increment of the spindle.
Record the indicator readings for three or four circular elements, from as far up the taper as you can reach, down to the max taper diameter.
It's not important to get the indicator zeroed at the same spindle clocking for each circular element. Ultimately, for each circular element, you only care about the indicator reading changes for each rotational increment.

The purposes of the detail is to get a rough 3 dimensional idea of the condition of the taper. Is the centerline of the taper (COT) essentially parallel but eccentric to the center of rotation (COR)? Is the COT angled relative to the COR? Take note of whether the TIR indications are smooth (like shown in the videos above) or is the needle jumpy (like reading scoring or debris).


----------



## Charlieman22

EXT.  Thanks.  Makes sense.  Did not have time to get to the machine today - but will provide this info.
The point may be moot though - if my tools won't drop out, I am probably going to have to have the spindle ground if I want automated operation.  Let's see what results we get from your test.  Should have at the weekend.

Thanks Jim.
What have you done with all your time?!  .
I have it set up like so.



I then have a DC power supply turned to max (30V)




That goes to a DC motor controller:



I think there may be some value in considering the bigger picture at this point
My current thinking is :
- Upgrade manual capabilities - use this to learn with and improve my basic skills
- Cut he box that sticks out over the machine - off - completely.
- Remove the large box on the side - and re-mount to the wall.  This will be much nicer to access, and allow the machine to push back 1.5'

At bare minimum - take the screen control box off and let some light in/ lower risk of cracking head open.
Let me know your thoughts regrind the current systems's flaws/ options for creating more grunt at low feed speeds for the spindle.

Thanks!
-CM


----------



## rabler

You are motivating me to get back to work on my 10EE!


----------



## Charlieman22

rabler said:


> You are motivating me to get back to work on my 10EE!


Not to get too far off track - but let me say this about the 10EE.
Having never really turned anything in my entire life - I was able to make a super high tolerance part right out of the gate.
The 10EE has totally spoiled me with is ball bearing apron movement and honkin high torque DC motor.
You should do it!


----------



## rabler

Charlieman22 said:


> You should do it!


It'll happen.  I'm doing a pretty comprehensive rebuild on mine, and thinking I will go ahead and get the bed ground, then rulon and scrape the carraige in.  My DC motor is a bit of a wiring mess, lots of cracked insulation, and a very worn gear in the reduction gearbox.  So there is a lot of work to do.  I'm just starting to build a new workshop to house the metalworking equipment, so that is going to eat up my time for a while.  

I did get my big Monarch (612) running and do have a 1944 CK that is also running, so I'm do have lathe capability.  But I expect that the 10EE, when finished, will be the most precise of them.


----------



## JimDawson

Charlieman22 said:


> EXT.  Thanks.  Makes sense.  Did not have time to get to the machine today - but will provide this info.
> The point may be moot though - if my tools won't drop out, I am probably going to have to have the spindle ground if I want automated operation.  Let's see what results we get from your test.  Should have at the weekend.
> 
> Thanks Jim.
> What have you done with all your time?!  .
> I have it set up like so.
> 
> I then have a DC power supply turned to max (30V)
> That goes to a DC motor controller:
> 
> 
> I think there may be some value in considering the bigger picture at this point
> My current thinking is :
> - Upgrade manual capabilities - use this to learn with and improve my basic skills
> - Cut he box that sticks out over the machine - off - completely.
> - Remove the large box on the side - and re-mount to the wall.  This will be much nicer to access, and allow the machine to push back 1.5'
> 
> At bare minimum - take the screen control box off and let some light in/ lower risk of cracking head open.
> Let me know your thoughts regrind the current systems's flaws/ options for creating more grunt at low feed speeds for the spindle.
> 
> Thanks!
> -CM



I have been a little bit busy.  https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/cnc-lathe-servo-spindle-upgrade.93298/

The poor low speed performance of your axis drives is most likely directly related to the cheap motor controller.  They just don't have the sophisticated electronics needed to run smoothly at low speeds.  Maybe increasing the voltage would be helpful to get better low speed performance, but it really depends on how the controller works.

One thing you could do is to use the original servo drives and power supply.  They have great low speed performance and are well matched to the motors.  It is possible to control them with a pot, they don't require computer control.

Removing that big ugly computer box is one of the first things that I would do.

I kept the arm and removed the box






Then mounted my monitor and keyboard on top of the arm, well out of the way.



Mounting the control box on the wall is OK, but one thing to concider is moving the machine in the future.  Would make it more difficult.

Adding hand wheels is a great idea.  I use mine all the time.

If you need more torque on the spindle, you can always switch into back gear and get about an 8:1 reduction.  Plenty of torque to break things.    You also want to make sure that the VFD is in sensorless vector mode.  Turning the mechanical speed down and increasing the motor speed will also give you more torque.  I removed my mechanical variable speed hardware and went to a direct timing belt drive with a 1.3:1 step up (motor pulley larger than the spindle pulley).  Seems to work fine and will just rigid tap 1/2-13 in steel, with out going into back gear, before I run out of torque.  

It looks like a spindle regrind would be a reasonable idea, after a bit more checking to make sure it is really needed.  As far as the tool holders sticking in the bore, that just means that the taper is a good fit and is normal.  If the tools just dropped out I would be worried, many times they take a light tap to come loose.  The vibration of the power draw bar is normally enough to cause them to drop out.  I did have my spindle reground when I had it rebuilt.  I think the total cost for the 5 bearing upgrade and regrind was about $900.


----------



## Charlieman22

Gracious Jim - lots of good stuff there.
Glad you were able to find something to do with your time...

- Good point on machine moving - which I have already done a couple times. 
- I'll share a picture at some point of my arm - it is about 3 x the width of yours - looks like they wanted to land a helicopter on it - and the plate sticks out over the entire table. 
- Having considered - I am going to chop off the arm as well - leave the box on there - and that should give me significant improvement.
- EXT also suggested to me that the tool might release with the use of the power draw bar.  I will finish my rebuild of that and put it on and see how it goes.  Little skeptical - as I am having to give the draw bar a pretty hard whack with a rubber mallet to get it to drop - after some loosening.  However - it is possible that the draw bar will "press" it out as it unscrews.  TBD.



JimDawson said:


> It looks like a spindle regrind would be a reasonable idea, after a bit more checking to make sure it is really needed. As far as the tool holders sticking in the bore, that just means that the taper is a good fit and is normal. If the tools just dropped out I would be worried, many times they take a light tap to come loose. The vibration of the power draw bar is normally enough to cause them to drop out. I did have my spindle reground when I had it rebuilt. I think the total cost for the 5 bearing upgrade and regrind was about $900.


Have received one quote for regrind only: $1350... Bit more expensive than I was expecting.  Will see if I can find a few more quotes.  Was yours done on site or did you bring them the head?


JimDawson said:


> You also want to make sure that the VFD is in sensorless vector mode


I'll look at the manual and see if I can figure out where that is.



JimDawson said:


> One thing you could do is to use the original servo drives and power supply. They have great low speed performance and are well matched to the motors. It is possible to control them with a pot, they don't require computer control.


Had thought of this - and it interest me.  Lot's of unknowns for me - for example - they might require 3 phase input?
Afterwards - perhaps we can do the dance to sort out what control pot's I might utilize.

*note - I have a second DC motor controller - that has its own power supply.  Higher voltage though.  Perhaps I could hook that up just to the spindle feed servo to see if it performs better.


----------



## JimDawson

A whack with a steel hammer would work better, that's what I used to use.  https://www.amazon.com/HHIP-3129-00...N40TUWM/ref=dp_fod_1?pd_rd_i=B00N40TUWM&psc=1

$1350 for just a regrind seems a bit pricy.  There are a bunch of spindle rebuilders in the SoCal area.  You would pull out the quill and take that over to the rebuilder, that is the normal way of doing it.  Maybe that $1350 quote includes removing and reinstalling the quill, and in that case might not be that bad.  But the quill is not difficult to R&R, I've done it many times.

The original servo drives (2) are DC.  I don't exactly recall how yours are wired up.  But the power feeding them comes from a DC power supply (8) fed by the transformer (6).  Most likely 100 - 120 VDC output.  As far as I know, the only 3 phase requirement on your machine is the spindle motor.  Worst case would be to modify the DC power supply for use on single phase, very simple.  Pulling that brown cover off of the power supply would tell the story very quickly.


----------



## Charlieman22

behind door #8 (brown box).



I'm interested to understand how I would instruct the servo drives (2) could be instructed to move the servos.


----------



## JimDawson

OK, that is a 3 phase bridge rectifier.  Easy and cheap to replace with a single phase bridge rectifier.  We only need to figure out what the input voltage should be, most likely we can get this information from the transformer (6), just need to look at where wires 14, 15, and 16 are connected and read the voltage from the transformer data plate. https://www.amazon.com/Bridgold-KBP...32432036&sprefix=50+amp+bridge,aps,213&sr=8-3

The servo drives take a +/- 10VDC command signal.  They most likely have an onboard source of voltage to power that input.  A 10K pot across those terminals with the center connected to the input, just like a VFD, would work fine.  These drives may be supplied with a +/- 15VDC power supply from the upper box.  If needed, a standard PC ATX power supply can be substituted and we can pull off +/- 12VDC from that.

I'm going to need the info from the data tag on the drive housing.  It is the tag at the top of the unit.  Need to find some documentation on it so I don't have to guess.  Failing that, we can trace some cables back to the source to figure out the pins.


----------



## Charlieman22

3 items on the go.
 - Plan for bringing the old transformer and servo drives online.
 - Measure of spindle runout
 - Rehabing and coming up with a plan for the power draw bar.



Ok - that mostly made sense - that is - I understand most of it.
I like the direction for a hand full of reasons.
This would provide robust and smooth movement.
With the DRO, and the addition of handles - I would have a lot more repeatable precision to work with.
Top box and perhaps arm could go (my arm is 2x the size or yours, and sticks clear out over the table).
This would justify remaking my home-made control panel with some upgraded switches (by adding a little depth to it).

BTW - you and Extropic were correct.
While I was not able to get the solenoids to open and close - I was able to direct feed the power draw bar.
When it watched - the tool came loose.
I will post on that separately.

A few more calls found an old German machinist who does mobile spindle service.
$750.  Nearly half the price of the other guy.
Been doing this specific process for 15 years.
In the machine repair business since the beginning of time.
More on spindle in following post.


----------



## JimDawson

OK, cool..  Now we know what the transformer output voltage is.... 165VAC, which equates to 233VDC out of the power supply.  Now we just need to confirm what the voltage rating on the filter caps in the power supply.  I would expect at least 250 or maybe 300VDC.  If they are rated at 200VDC or less, then that would mean that the rectifier in the power supply is a half wave bridge rather than a full wave bridge.


----------



## Charlieman22

well - success - you managed to baffle me with "filter caps" - but I love to learn new things.
How might I find these mysterious caps?
Do they look like coke caps?
Twist or screw?
& if you can help me identify them - how might I test for us or discover their voltage rating?


----------



## JimDawson

Filter capacitors, the round thing to the right of the power supply rectifier.

EDIT: The voltage should be printed on the side.


----------



## extropic

I really enjoy watching Jim peal the issues and describe the next step/resolution.
It's a pleasure watching a pro work.     

More comments regarding the the spindle TIR survey:
I want to have as much info as possible to inform WHY the taper runs out.
I assume it didn't ship from the factory with a bunch of runout.
So, what happened to it and what else (besides taper runout) is damaged?
Is the spindle bent?
Are the bearings damaged?

Regrinding the taper in situ can fix the runout in the near term but it may not fix the fundamental issue 
(why does the taper runout?).


----------



## Charlieman22

TIR survey - interested to see myself. 
Have a rotary table and engine case on table and set in the DRO - don't want to take them out yet - so am holding on that one another day.
Did a little research on bearings as well - spindle guy gave me a trick to test them.
I will include that with my posting - and we can see. where we are.

Jim - now you are seeking my language.
"The round thing to the right"
Why didn't you just say so?

Took a look with camera and flashlight but couldn't find any markings.
It's going to have to come out.
Now I just need to figure out exactly how you remove it!
Seems it would have a lock - and slip out the front.
Have not managed to spot said lock yet - if that's how it is held in.


----------



## JimDawson

At the very bottom I would expect to find a band, like a hose clamp, with a couple of tabs on it. The tabs should be screwed to the case.


----------



## Charlieman22

Ok - there was a hidden zip type pulled tight by King Kong at the front - I had clipped the one at the back.
Picture below.

Ext - ran through the process.
Marked where the front dog was as A - rear dog as B - and there were three increments between B,C,D and F,G,H
This represented a mark every 45 degrees around the spindle.
I watched for lumps.  There are not giant ones - but perhaps a few areas where there was a small tic.
I went ahead and zeroed out putting A at 1.5 and then taking relative measures from that point
However - you can see a pretty consistent read from top to bottom.
All measures are in ten thousandths ("tenths").
Interesting process.

One thing that the old German spindle grinder told me was - you can tell when the bearings are bad because the readings wont be consistent - keeps moving around.  I am not seeing that either in slow or quicker motion.  Thoughts on that and chart?


----------



## JimDawson

OK, that tells me pretty much what the voltage to the drives is supposed to be.   350VDC working voltage equates to around 200 output.  Close enough to make things run.  We can't use the original transformer so an isolation transformer will need to be purchased, 1.5 KVA capacity. This can be powered up with 240 VAC which when rectified will output 169 VDC.  And the motors are rated at 167 VDC, so perfect.  https://www.ebay.com/itm/303644573524?hash=item46b2a07f54:g:eCUAAOSwSGxhKxzv

Now I need the information off of the data tag on the drive unit, it's the paper sticker at the top of the unit.  Need to try to find the documentation.


----------



## Charlieman22

Might this be it?


----------



## Charlieman22

https://cache.industry.siemens.com/dl/files/597/22073597/att_26904/v1/573_6RB21_Instruction_Manual.pdf


----------



## JimDawson

Perfect.  The wiring is really simple, but is going to require external 24VDC and +/- 15VDC power supplies.  I'll get those spec'd out.  You may be able to use the existing power supplies in the upper box.  We'll need to see how those are lashed up.

I need to spend a bit more time with the documentation to fully understand everything.


----------



## extropic

@Charlieman22 

Good work on the runout data.
I will evaluate it and convert it into a graphical representation that will be much easier (than the raw numbers) for me, and I hope others, to make sense of. Will post back here tomorrow.

Regarding the old gentleman's comments on "bad" bearings: Exactly !!!
Balls can get out of round. Races get dents in them. As the balls precess, the differing diameters and dents in races result in the center of rotation moving around. I didn't see shocking evidence of that sort of bearing damage in your earlier videos. However, something has caused the taper to runout. Just trying to understand the cause.

Side note: I have witnessed measurements on VERY high precision ball bearings and have seen (with the help of metrology laboratory grade equipment) the center of rotation nutate in a sort of figure eight. I don't remember the magnitude (many years ago) but we measured it at the time. Probably under 20 millionths. I WISH I had such bearings. There is no mechanical perfection. Only "good enough".


----------



## extropic

@Charlieman22 

If looking down on the spindle from the top, which direction did you rotate the spindle to get from A to B, B to C, etc.   CW or CCW?

I want my graphic to be as representative as possible.


----------



## Papa Charlie

Charlieman22 said:


> Well - I am glad to see I am not the only one smitten by the Monarch.
> Hooked by the Art Deco look - but blown away by how nice it is to use.
> Extremely solid and precise - smooth.
> Shaky picture on Ebay - no description - no response to questions - less than $3K.
> On a whim - hit buy now.
> Turns out to run nicely - and has a Sabina digital drive.
> The seller was 80 - had used it for 30 years in garage as hobbyist - and just wasn't very good at posting pictures.
> I helped him unload all his machinery - and he gave me a really nice deal.
> 
> Dan - I have been watching his series.  He does a super nice job on finish and cleaning and bringing back to original.
> Charlie - not sure on the taper on the 10EE  (my taper issue is on the mill).
> 10EE will get is's own thread when I get there.
> Right now - using it to help get my scooter back on the road - and get a feel for it's operational condition.



Sorry I wasn't clear. I was wondering what the diameter of the spindle bore is? Curious if I could use it for chambering rifle barrels. I need at least an 1.5" bore.


----------



## Charlieman22

JimDawson said:


> Perfect.  The wiring is really simple, but is going to require external 24VDC and +/- 15VDC power supplies.  I'll get those spec'd out.  You may be able to use the existing power supplies in the upper box.  We'll need to see how those are lashed up.
> 
> I need to spend a bit more time with the documentation to fully understand everything.


Thanks for all Jim.  That's an interesting prospect.
Sure enough - there are some power supplies on the various boards.
At least one of them looks custom made for our use?
The three TDK ones are from the Faunac power supply box.
The one marked 25V is on the side of the box.
The small red wrapped on - if that is even a power supply - is from the motherboard for the screen.










extropic said:


> If looking down on the spindle from the top, which direction did you rotate the spindle to get from A to B, B to C, etc. CW or CCW?


From Birdseye view above - looking straight down - the spindle was rotated counter clockwise.
A was actually facing the back, and E was facing my chest.
Thanks for taking the time and providing the direction on this.



Papa Charlie said:


> Sorry I wasn't clear. I was wondering what the diameter of the spindle bore is? Curious if I could use it for chambering rifle barrels. I need at least an 1.5" bore.


No trouble at all.  The boar is 1.4" - taken at the tail end -  so just shy of what you had hoped for.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
They sure are nice machines to work with.


----------



## Charlieman22

Jim - since you are thinking this through - best if you have the full picture.
Few things to consider - may or may not affect thinking.
1.  My Monarch is 460V- not a typo.  How it came.  Spoke with Sabina - they made the drive.  They had all the documentation no the upgrade.  Motor was rewound to be 500VDC (I think that's right).  Prior owner powered (for 30 years) with RPC and an up converter.  I was given his power supply - and run it that way now.  No reason to think we need to go away from the VFD - but I now have an RPC in my garage - just FYI.
2.  The power draw bar is configured with 2 115V solenoids.  They have failed - I will replace.  I could use lower voltage ones - or buy original.  When either solenoid is open, air is allowed to push the forward or reverse on the drawbar actuator, it spins, and is fed air simultaneously which compresses it.  Simultaneously the power spindle lock can be activated.  Also 115.  Current inclination is to keep this all 115 and repurpose the momentary buttons the were on the machine.
3.  I am also considering repurposing the upper box as my main box - and removing the main box.  This would allow the machine to move back towards the wall by More than a foot.


----------



## extropic

@Charlieman22

I'm wading into the dimensions of the NMTB taper so I create a useful graphic.

On your data table, you note "1/4" Deep", etc.  My question is, 1/4" from what? Flat spindle face (lugs removed)? Base of drive lug slots? Please describe.

At the "2 5/8" Deep" location, do you know whether the indicator tip was reading on the taper or on the cylindrical diameter (where the tool holder tail fits).

I think that's all I need to know. Always more complex when we really get into it.


----------



## Charlieman22

extropic said:


> On your data table, you note "1/4" Deep", etc. My question is, 1/4" from what? Flat spindle face (lugs removed)? Base of drive lug slots? Please describe.
> 
> At the "2 5/8" Deep" location, do you know whether the indicator tip was reading on the taper or on the cylindrical diameter (where the tool holder tail fits).


No trouble.
- The lugs Allen head was gnarled - and I wanted to get you the data - so instead I was super careful with placement of the dial up the center so that I could get the readings with the lugs still on.  Two items of note.
1.  The readings A and E are directly aligned with the center of the lugs.  I placed the indicator just above the indentation for the lugs, inside the spindle.  As you are making a precision drawing - the lug indention is actually .25 up in to the spindle.  The measuring spot for my first row was actually .35" up in to the spindle just above.
2.  If you look at my measures - the one that is most out of whack is is row 1, E, at .000295".  My best guess is that the spindle has some local deformation right at that point caused by either overtightening of the lug, or other issues related to the lug being driven up into the spindle off a work piece crash.  Just a guess.
 - As for the location of the 2 5/8, I believe that it was at the top of the taper.  I attempted a photograph but view was obscured by the dial and body.  To ensure I was getting accurate reads - I rotated that twice - with matching results.


----------



## JimDawson

I think it is best to keep the lathe and mill hardware separate.  I see no need for 3 phase power at the mill.

We want to keep in mind that the ultimate goal is to have both full CNC and manual control on the mill.  So anything we do now needs to be compatible with full CNC later. So far this is the case.

Current needs:

Get the axis motors under better manual control
Get the power drawbar working
Reduce the footprint of the control enclosure
We have to be a little careful in the way we control the axis motors, need to put some limits on the maximum speed.  This means limiting the range of the command voltage input to about +/- 2 VDC.  This might be a bit challenging without computer control.   The documentation seems to address this, but I'm still trying to get my head around what the documentation actually says.  The documentation is translated from German, and they have some different ways of saying things.  At full power the axis motors are capable of driving the table at over 600 IPM.  This is way too fast for a human to control.  Maximum speed should be limited to no more than 100 IPM, normal cutting is going to be in the sub-50 IPM range, and for the most part in the 5 to 20 IPM range given the available spindle speed.

I thought about it for a bit and see no advantage in replacing the servo drives, the original drives will work fine and the foot print of more modern drives is not substantially smaller than the original drives.  The power supplies in the upper box are pretty much useless, so replacing those will be needed.  We only need to modify the rectifier section on the servo drive frame to accept a single phase input, and provide a proper transformer to feed it.

115VAC solenoid valves are fine.  No problem with using 115VAC for the control power on the whole machine.  There is already a transformer in the control enclosure for the 115VAC supply.

I'm not sure if the control enclosure size can be reduced.  There is just a certain amount of stuff that needs to go in there and you really don't want it too crowded.  It is really a PITA to have to wire things up with out enough panel real estate.  One option is to use two separate enclosures and put them on either side of the machine.  Heavy power handling components in one and control in the other.  This complicates the wiring a bit, but I have done it.  Rotating the machine slightly might allow you to push it further back towards the wall, this is a common way of setting mills.


----------



## Papa Charlie

Charlieman22 said:


> No trouble at all.  The boar is 1.4" - taken at the tail end -  so just shy of what you had hoped for.
> Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
> They sure are nice machines to work with.



Not at all, it might work. Most of the barrel blanks I work with are 1.25" That would be tight to get it through without damaging the barrel finish but I can work around that. Would have to create a spider that would attach to the back of the spindle to center up the barrel on that end, that might be a bigger challenge. I guess I need to check one out in person to be sure. 

Thanks very much for your help.


----------



## Charlieman22

JimDawson said:


> I think it is best to keep the lathe and mill hardware separate. I see no need for 3 phase power at the mill.


Agreed - wanted to make sure you were aware of the set up tho.


JimDawson said:


> I thought about it for a bit and see no advantage in replacing the servo drives, the original drives will work fine and the foot print of more modern drives is not substantially smaller than the original drives. The power supplies in the upper box are pretty much useless, so replacing those will be needed. We only need to modify the rectifier section on the servo drive frame to accept a single phase input, and provide a proper transformer to feed it.


Noted.  Ok.


JimDawson said:


> 115VAC solenoid valves are fine. No problem with using 115VAC for the control power on the whole machine. There is already a transformer in the control enclosure for the 115VAC supply.


Ok - Will go ahead and pull the trigger on the 115 volt config.  Simplifies in some ways.  The original switch is a little ratty - but I think I can clean it up.  The wires coming out of the back look decidedly un 115V though.  Will I be able to utilize this switch and just rewire?  Perfect place on side of mill head with indentation I have spotted for it.  Could make a custom aluminum block to mount with.
	

		
			
		

		
	





JimDawson said:


> I'm not sure if the control enclosure size can be reduced. There is just a certain amount of stuff that needs to go in there and you really don't want it too crowded.


Let's assume large box will be utilized.
When I have all the components there, I'm sure I'll have a better appreciation for that space.


Papa Charlie said:


> Not at all, it might work. Most of the barrel blanks I work with are 1.25" That would be tight to get it through without damaging the barrel finish but I can work around that. Would have to create a spider that would attach to the back of the spindle to center up the barrel on that end, that might be a bigger challenge. I guess I need to check one out in person to be sure.
> 
> Thanks very much for your help.



Would like to strip out the components we won't use in long term, and all the old wiring, when we make these changes.
Nice to work in a clean space - no point in having boat anchors filling it up.


JimDawson said:


> Current needs:
> 
> Get the axis motors under better manual control
> Get the power drawbar working
> Reduce the footprint of the control enclosure


Yup - good rundown.
After you have a think - let me know what you feel the config will be - and what I will need to source.
Thanks!


----------



## Charlieman22

Papa Charlie said:


> Not at all, it might work. Most of the barrel blanks I work with are 1.25" That would be tight to get it through without damaging the barrel finish but I can work around that. Would have to create a spider that would attach to the back of the spindle to center up the barrel on that end, that might be a bigger challenge. I guess I need to check one out in person to be sure.
> 
> Thanks very much for your help.


No trouble.
The machine seems to be popular with some other gunsmiths - I've see elsewhere.
Their is a threaded nut on the end - which could be replaced with something like a Delrin bushing or the like - I would think - for centering.
Otherwise, some other kind of spider solution could be screwed on the end I'm sure.
Pic of the end below.
If I get a chance - I will test max size bar that will fit through entire tube to give you better data.


----------



## extropic

Got the runout data table (Excel) done along with the graphic (.pdf).

It looks like a definite crash scenario to me.

If you want the spindle to be factory spec again, I suggest taking the whole quill assembly to a spindle Guru.
Why? The tapered end of the spindle is bent. That's where the bearings live. The bearing journals (spindle) are certainly distorted. 
the bearing housing (quill) areas may well be deformed also. If deformed, bearings will have a significantly shortened life. Have the bearings been replaced since the crash? Replaced with what? If the bearings were replaced, why didn't they regrind the taper? Easier to put it in the parking lot.

If less than factory spec is acceptable . . .


----------



## rabler

Monarch specs say 1 13/32 for the 10EE spindle bore, so 1.40625.  Or 1.4 for all practical purposes.
http://www.vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2103/19729.pdf


----------



## Charlieman22

extropic said:


> It looks like a definite crash scenario to me.


Wow.  Did you guys look at that PDF Birdseye view?  
Amazing break down.
Thanks Ext!
.
	

		
			
		

		
	






rabler said:


> Monarch specs say 1 13/32 for the 10EE spindle bore, so 1.40625. Or 1.4 for all practical purposes.
> http://www.vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2103/19729.pdf


Rabler - thanks!
Good find.
( I am also going to take it a a win that I measured as 1.4")
Charlie - I will still slip a tube through it at some point - to see if mine meets the spec.
No telling what we might learn...



extropic said:


> If less than factory spec is acceptable . . .


That is of course the question.
Precision is very nice to work with.
Shaves off some of my rough edges on execution.
Allows me to aim more finely to start with.
But in truth - I am not itching to rip down the entire spindle and head.
I want to use the machine.
Though it's my "hobby", it's still central to my other activities.
I also earn a living off inventions - so being able to prototype has meaning.
It earn's its keep here.

The  spindle grinder says he will examine conditions of bearings before starting.
I would write the check if he can guarantee I would take at least 50% of the TIR out with a few hours of his time.
If not - it probably doesn't hold the value.

Ext - thanks again for that tutorial.
Fascinating all around.


----------



## extropic

I hear you regarding the precision vs hobby duty. Have I told you lately "It's your world"?

Here's another factor to twist your head around. All the data we have on the runout is taken in a completely benign environment.

One more test procedure to help us understand the fit/condition of the bearings and the preload.
Mount one of your new 3/4" Weldon holders in the taper w/ tight drawbar. Extend the quill far enough to attach your magnetic base (or other DTI holder) to the quill OD. Lower the knee so you can mount a foot or so of 3/4" diameter bar into the Weldon holder. Position the DTI to measure any deflection between the OD of the tool holder flange (better if you can touch the OD of the spindle nose instead) and the quill OD. Apply about 100 pounds of horizontal force to the free end of the 3/4" bar and record the deflection. A large fish scale would be ideal to quantify the force. Relocate the DTI around the quill (6 or 8 places) and repeat the force application perpendicular to the indicator stylus contact point.

I don't know what the practical side loads are on a 1/2" end mill in various cutting scenarios however, I'm sure they are frequently much higher than 100 foot pounds. I would not want to see even .0001" deflection in the test I described. In your case (crash victim), I would particularly be looking for differing deflection at different points of the compass which would suggest, to me, bearing housing(s) (quill) may not be cylindrical anymore.

Have I worn out my welcome yet?


----------



## Charlieman22

extropic said:


> ...
> 
> Have I worn out my welcome yet?


Nah - flash forward to a year from now.
I will be asking you to remind me about that process you described...


----------



## extropic

Very subtle. The way you said "Shut up. I'm going to have the taper ground".   

PS: I edited the procedure a little after you read it.


----------



## rabler

@Charlieman22 
I give you credit for jumping in and tackling several significant projects simultaneously while still trying to keep reasonable goals in sight.


----------



## JimDawson

The existing switches will work fine for the power draw bar.




Removing stuff from panel:
1) Remove
2) Stays
3) Stays
8) Stays, actually is part of 2.  Ice cube relays below 8 can most likely go.
7) As things are removed, might be able to be compacted a bit.  Could be replaced with more compact terminals.  Not sure what that little transformer does.
4) About 1/2 can most likely be removed.  Could be replaced with more compact fuse holders, I normally use 6mm wide fuse holders.
6) Will be replaced by a different transformer
5) Stays
We need to figure out that the small contactor to the right of 5 does, I suspect it feeds 6.  If that is the case, it will stay.

I would remove the top box and associated wiring, this will free up a lot of the terminals and we'll be better able to see what is needed.  Remove the wires from the terminals, don't just clip them.  Save the cables.  As components are removed, also remove all of the associated wires.

This whole project is really at a decision point.  It is so easy and really less complex to to just add a controller to run the thing, even in manual mode.  On my machine when operating manually I use a combination of keyboard jog and hand cranking to accomplish the task.  Besides the spindle VFD controls, I only have an E-stop and an Enable button as physical buttons, everything else is done on the computer screen with a mouse click.  Eliminates an incredible amount of wiring.

As near as I can tell, to run the servo drive you will only need a +/- 15VDC and a 24VDC power supplies, and change over to single phase power input using a different diode and transformer.



			https://www.automationdirect.com/adc/shopping/catalog/power_products_(electrical)/dc_power_supplies/encapsulated_(pse_series)/single_output/pse15-115
		


Automation Direct seems to be out of stock on a lot of power supplies....So,



			https://www.amazon.com/MEAN-WELL-EDR-120-24-Single-Output/dp/B00UR98FSS/ref=sr_1_1?crid=14PB28G39ZAQ5&dchild=1&keywords=24vdc+power+supply+din+rail&qid=1632597324&sprefix=24Vdc%2Caps%2C231&sr=8-1
		


https://www.amazon.com/Bridgold-KBP...32432036&sprefix=50+amp+bridge,aps,213&sr=8-3

https://www.ebay.com/itm/303644573524?hash=item46b2a07f54:g:eCUAAOSwSGxhKxzv


----------



## Charlieman22

rabler said:


> I give you credit for jumping in and tackling several significant projects simultaneously while still trying to keep reasonable goals in sight.


Appreciate that.
Know it can look like spaghetti at the wall sometimes.
Takes one to know one I suspect.



JimDawson said:


> This whole project is really at a decision point. It is so easy and really less complex to to just add a controller to run the thing, even in manual mode. On my machine when operating manually I use a combination of keyboard jog and hand cranking to accomplish the task. Besides the spindle VFD controls, I only have an E-stop and an Enable button as physical buttons, everything else is done on the computer screen with a mouse click. Eliminates an incredible amount of wiring.


Ok.
The above lays out the non full CNC play.
My approach on cables (going forward...) will be to disconnect in the big box and feed out and up into the upper box, or out to the component they are controlling.

Suppose I have two questions then
1.  How many of each of the links do I need to buy.
2.  What is the shopping list if we just go straight to CNC?

Even if imperfect for choice - once I understand the components - I can shop them a bit for size and attachment ease.
Perhaps we should just make the leap now.


----------



## JimDawson

Charlieman22 said:


> Ok.
> The above lays out the non full CNC play.
> My approach on cables (going forward...) will be to disconnect in the big box and feed out and up into the upper box, or out to the component they are controlling.
> 
> Suppose I have two questions then
> 1. How many of each of the links do I need to buy.
> 2. What is the shopping list if we just go straight to CNC?
> 
> Even if imperfect for choice - once I understand the components - I can shop them a bit for size and attachment ease.
> Perhaps we should just make the leap now.



I think it is better to disconnect the cables at the upper box and feed them back into the lower box.  There are some control cable that we will want to leave connected in the lower box.  Only remove cables and wires from components that you are going to remove per the list above.  Leave the cables going to the motors and limit switches connected.  This will save time later.  If you can identify and label the cables it will be very helpful.

Links?  Not sure what you mean there.

I'll get a list together.


----------



## JimDawson

OK, this is all the major components, there will be a few more bits & pieces of minor hardware.


QTY 1  I use these in all my machines, and have installed about 75 units over the last 20 or so years.  This is the best deal I could find on eBay at the moment. I would make a lowball offer and see what happens, I have purchased these for as little as $100.  These retail at about $2400.








						Galil DMC-4040 motion control  | eBay
					

Used, working condition.



					www.ebay.com
				



Galil DMC-4040, 4 axis motion controller

QTY 1  Power cable for above
https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/molex/2451350220/6564767 
2 Position Cable Assembly Rectangular Socket to Socket 6.56' (2.00m)
Mini-Fit Jr 245135

QTY 4  Encoder connectors


			DB15HD Slim Breakout Board with Screw Terminals - Winford Engineering
		

DB15HD Male Connector:
BRKSD15HDM-C

QTY 1 I/O connector


			DB44HD Breakout Board with Screw Terminals - Winford Engineering
		

DB44HD Female Right Angle Connector:
BRKDD44HDFV2-R-DIN

QTY 1 I/O connector
DB44HD Male Right Angle Connector:
BRKDD44HDMV2-R-DIN

QTY 2 Cables for I/O connectors





						Amphenol CS-DSDHD44MF0-002.5 44-Pin (HD44) Deluxe HD D-Sub Cable - Copper Shielded - Male / Female 2.5ft
					

Buy 2.5ft Amphenol CS-DSDHD44MF0-002.5 Cables Direct from the Factory at Cables on Demand. 44-pin (HD44) Copper Shielded High Density Male/Female D-Sub Cables by Amphenol provide exceptional performance in commercial, industrial or enterprise applications where longevity and repeated disconnects...




					cablesondemand.com
				



44-PIN (HD44) DELUXE HD D-SUB CABLE - COPPER SHIELDED - MALE / FEMALE
CS-DSDHD44MF0-002.5

QTY 1  Not required but nice to have. I have this same one on my lathe and have beat the hell out of it, it is still alive after two years of abuse.








						Universal CNC 4 Axis MPG Pendant Handwheel & Emergency Stop for Siemens US xs90*  | eBay
					

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Universal CNC 4 Axis MPG Pendant Handwheel & Emergency Stop for Siemens US xs90* at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



					www.ebay.com
				



Universal CNC 4 Axis MPG Pendant Handwheel

QTY 1  Relay interface for digital outputs


			Amazon.com
		

5V Relay Module with Optocoupler Isolation

QTY 1  
Any Win7 or Win10 computer or laptop, I prefer a Mini PC. keyboard, mouse, monitor, and ethernet cable


			Amazon.com : mini computer


----------



## Charlieman22

Jim - and anyone who is reading this.
Honestly - I'm kinda blown away.
It's not just a shopping list - it's a road map.
This bit alone is worth the price of admission.


JimDawson said:


> QTY 1 I use these in all my machines, and have installed about 75 units over the last 20 or so years. This is the best deal I could find on eBay at the moment. I would make a lowball offer and see what happens, I have purchased these for as little as $100. These retail at about $2400.



Mind you - 
If I don't have any questions/ challenges - means I haven't looked closely enough.
Thank you for putting in the time to outline this for me.

For anyone else following.
I will try and create a price list for the items - so we all get a snap shot of costs.
For me - this has always been a "when", not an "if".
Cost is not a nothing issue - so it has its affects on "when".
Lemme read and digest - will post back with my findings.

Oh - and nice touch on the hand wheel.
You knew I wouldn't be happy without it!
Caused a chuckle.


----------



## Charlieman22

Ok - quick browse through.
I'm in.
Two biggest items of price swing: DMC 4040 (Will take your advice on low ball) - and "mini computer".
So first question:

Surprisingly - Amazon lists from ~$550 to $150.
This one is at the cheap end/ well rated/ Amazon recommended.
Any reason I wouldn't go here/ are the specs below target?



			Amazon.com


----------



## JimDawson

I don't see the ability to accept a hard drive in that one.

This one is $10 more and and will accept a hard drive and has Win10 Pro.  A better choice I think.


			Amazon.com
		


I have one similar sitting on my desk, it will actually run Fusion 360.  That one is going into my CNC plasma cutter, if I ever get it built.


----------



## Charlieman22

Ah - CNC plasma cutter.
I will know I have arrived when I have one of those...
I'm probably a little intimidated by CNC in some ways.
But entry through a machine with handles and a "manual pedigree" seems just the ticket.

Thinking the Ditron DRO will go very nicely on the new lathe - when I take it off the mill.
Just what the dr. ordered to allow me to us MM when working on my Vespa - back to " when not.

You may recall - I went ahead and grabbed the version with a hall sensor for RPM.
The Webb would benefit greatly from being able to use something other than my ear for setting speed.
I think I can find a means to put the hall sensor on the machine - though I don't know how/where yet.

Question: in our config for CNC - what would it take to be able to use a hall sensor for RPM = and do you think it's needed or will I learn to adjust manually?


----------



## JimDawson

10 years ago I couldn't even spell CNC and I was scared to death of it.     All that new fangled stuff to learn.

You do have the dial on the front of the machine head that will give you the RPM, close enough anyway.

BP style heads are a real PITA to extract the RPM because the only thing that turns at spindle speed is the spindle, and that is buried in the works.  There is a gear in there on the non-CNC heads that might work with the Hall sensor, but even it moves vertically.  I have seen a system that a guy built coming out the top of the housing, off of the top bearing, but with a power draw bar you couldn't access that area.  There may be a way to get some kind of sensor in there, We just need to figure out how to do it.

What I did on mine was remove all of the variable speed hardware and built a direct timing belt drive, and just hung an encoder on the motor shaft.  https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/mill-spindle-direct-drive-conversion.49130/#post-414141


----------



## Charlieman22

Right: C AND C.
Well - I guess I am jumping in too.
Have a question:
I see a number of the DMC 4040 units on Ebay.
Is there a reason not to try and low ball a few and see what I get - or was there a reason that you chose that particular one?
(they have an automatic "declined" when I tried 3 different amounts.)
Not opposed to writing the check - just trying to be smart about it.


----------



## JimDawson

That one was the the lowest price that I ran across in a quick search.  It looks like there are a couple more today at a bit lower price from China.  

There are several different part numbers in that series depending on options.  Some even have built in servo drives, but most of the built in drives are not suitable for your machine.  Buying one with a built in drive will not affect the operation if used without the built in drive.  There is one part number that would require different cabling, so maybe hold off on buying any connectors and cables until you have a Galil unit.

Bottom line is that any of the DMC-4040 series will work.

Just as an aside, I normally would not buy used electronics, but the Galil units are almost bullet proof.  I have only had two failures in over 20 years and about 75 units. One was a nearby lighting strike that wiped out a bunch of other electronics in the factory. The other was an installer error who crossed 220VAC with the 24VDC bus.   That was not pretty.


----------



## Charlieman22

Thanks - noted there is some risk factor.
Also noted - I won't screw us up if I get a good price on one. - but it is a 4040 with servo drives.
I just wanted to know the ground rules before I started pulling the trigger.
Clear.
Thanks.


----------



## JimDawson

Yes, it is still a 4040, the full part number for the base unit is DMC-4040-C012-I000, and as an example DMC-4040-C012-I000-D3040 would be with four 500W servo drives.  You would rarely get a full part number in an eBay ad.  

The particular one that I linked to did not have onboard drives.


----------



## Charlieman22

Great.  
The one you linked to was well priced.
May be the one in the end.
First I will try some lower offers on the others - and if I can't - that will be the one!


----------



## JimDawson

Well I opened my mouth a little too soon regarding the ruggedness of the MPG.  I finally dropped mine on a concrete floor one too many times and killed the encoder.     Thus proved they are not indestructible.  The good news is that I have a new encoder for one around here somewhere so I'll be back in business pretty quick.


----------



## Charlieman22

Ha - well - while you were crash dummy testing your MPG, I was sending notes to 1/3 the population of China.
Lotta people over there.
Who knew.

Here is the best deal I have my hands on right now.
This is their response to my question about what exactly fair vs good condition meant.


> Hello, one color is 95% new and has little use time, the price is 650 DOLLARS; the other color is 80% new, the equipment is disassembly, I don't know how long it will be used, there are obvious scratches, but the function is intact, the price is 500 dollars for you, please tell me which one you need, I will give you the purchase link, thank you‌‌‌‍‍‌‌‌‍‌‍‌‍‍‌‍‌‌‌‌‍‌‌‍‌‍‌‍‌‌‌‍‌‌‌‍‌‍‌‍‍‍‍‍‍‍‍‍‍‍‍‍‍‍‍‍‍‍‍‍‌


The "color" she is referring to are any marks or scratches on the outside.  Honestly - I'm not sure they know.  They do have a guarantee it works - and say that have tested them.  Shipping is $30.  So options are $680 for good and $500 for fair.  Your guess as good as mine.  
Then there is the one you posted a link to.  They turned down all offers.  That one is $549 + $87 shipping.  It comes from Singapore.  

Where are they pulling all of these from?
Do you have a preference on above?


----------



## JimDawson

A few scratches on the case would not make a difference.  So I guess the cheaper of the two. Pictures are always helpful.

These are coming out of obsolete automated assembly equipment.  These are very common to find in electronics manufacturing automation.


----------



## JimDawson

Here is a new listing.  Best deal on the planet https://www.ebay.com/itm/265332863160?hash=item3dc71230b8:g:WwgAAOSwUDVhUgM1

It is taking me every bit of self control that I have not to click the Buy It Now button


----------



## Charlieman22

Clicked buy now.
Waiting for confirmation.


----------



## Charlieman22

Purchased.  Thanks Jim!
Can I put the machine on wheels and have it dance around the room now on two of the axis while it cuts?!
 

Great find.
Much appreciated!!


----------



## JimDawson

Charlieman22 said:


> Purchased.  Thanks Jim!
> Can I put the machine on wheels and have it dance around the room now on two of the axis while it cuts?!
> 
> 
> Great find.
> Much appreciated!!



We can make it do something fun I think. 

My pleasure.


----------



## Charlieman22

Well - win some lose some.
Had spindle guy come in.
He checked to start - the run out appeared just as in Extropics drawing when he repeated the process (which is what he did on arrival).
He then did the set up and the grinding - but when done - we didn't get the expected results.
That got even worse when we put a tool in.
Spindle taper itself was smooth and able to wipe the test marks off his tool cleanly.
But the runout was still there.
Some further testing - and he said - the spindle bearings were damaged from a crash...
Extropic - you can fill in your comments here...
[    ]


So - disappointing and expensive.
Thought I had insured myself against that with the tests he ran prior - but that wasn't the case.

So that leaves me with the question:
Am I able to replace bearings by dropping the spindle down out of the quill?
Is this the dreaded head disassembly and removal?
Tough morning.


----------



## JimDawson

Well that just sucks.

I'm trying to get my head around how it is possible to grind the spindle in the bearings and still have runout. 

You should be able to just drop the quill out.  I think on that machine if you remove the link between the ball nut and the spindle, it will literally just fall out. (after removing the draw bar).  So keep it supported until you are ready to drop it out.  Probably weighs about 30 lbs or so.


----------



## Charlieman22

JimDawson said:


> I'm trying to get my head around how it is possible to grind the spindle in the bearings and still have runout.



When he was done grinding - I could still see some runout - though it was small.
I inserted a tool and it read with lots of run out.
We took the tool out - and the run out seemed worse than when he had completed the grind.
Perhaps the tightening - or the hammering of the draw bar to extricate the tool was the reason.

I asked if we could out a small threaded lug in the spindle and tighten the draw bar - to recreate the "loaded" condition of when a tool is in.
Thinking: if we grind like this - perhaps it will be in spec when a tool is in and tight.
He said tightening the draw bar like that would have no effect.
I'm still not certain.

Assuming it is the bearings - I am trying to get my head around what it would take to repair.
I assume when you drop the quill out - the bearings come with it?
I could do some YouTube searches - might help if I know other brands/ models that are likely similar in build.

Below is an exploded view from the machine's book.
Also some pictures of the machines quill,










JimDawson said:


> You should be able to just drop the quill out. I think on that machine if you remove the link between the ball nut and the spindle, it will literally just fall out. (after removing the draw bar). So keep it supported until you are ready to drop it out. Probably weighs about 30 lbs or so.



Looks to me like there is a set screw on the side of the quill that would need to be taken out - then the "nose piece" 48 would unscrew. If this were unscrewed - would the spindle just fall out?
What number in this picture is the ball nut you are referring to?


----------



## JimDawson

Items 37 thru 48 come out as an assembly.  The bearings are inside of the quill.  The spindle is inside of the bearings.  The spindle is item 44.

Remove the 2 screws (32) and the Yoke (33) and the quill will just fall out I think.

The quill is the part with the set screw in the side of it.  It is about a foot or so long, and the spindle is almost 2 feet long. 

Do not remove the nose nut (where the set screw is at).  You do not want to try to disassemble that in place.  You really can't, there is a nut on the top that holds the assembly together, and you have to remove the quill to get to it.

You want to take the entire quill assembly to the spindle rebuild shop.


----------



## Charlieman22

JimDawson said:


> You want to take the entire quill assembly to the spindle rebuild shop.


That's now on the list.


JimDawson said:


> Items 37 thru 48 come out as an assembly


Ok


JimDawson said:


> Do not remove the nose nut (where the set screw is at). You do not want to try to disassemble that in place. You really can't, there is a nut on the top that holds the assembly together, and you have to remove the quill to get to it.


Ok - but I have a hole in my bucket Liza.  
That is to say, I'm not sure how to remove the quill (with its contents) from the mill head.
In fact - I'm not really clear where to begin.


----------



## JimDawson

Charlieman22 said:


> That is to say, I'm not sure how to remove the quill (with its contents) from the mill head.
> In fact - I'm not really clear where to begin.


Remove the 2 screws (32) and the Yoke (33) and the quill will just fall out I think.


----------



## Charlieman22

Oooo.  Sneaky.
33 is a key that the quill bottoms out on?
Removed - and it should just keep sliding downwards.
Blocks of wood on the table - and then use the knee to lower it out.
If I wanted to get fancy - perhaps use a chuck inserted and lower it on to a rod.

Off to call the spindle rebuild shops to see how much I spent today.
Fairly certain its more than I earned...

Thanks Jim


----------



## JimDawson

Charlieman22 said:


> 33 is a key that the quill bottoms out on?


Not exactly, but close.  If everything is working right we hope it doesn't bottom out, at least in normal operation.  The yoke is what the ball nut attaches to.  So you will most likely need to remove items 1 thru 12 to get to the screws (32).

At least you got one screaming deal today.


----------



## extropic

JimDawson said:


> <snip
> I'm trying to get my head around how it is possible to grind the spindle in the bearings and still have runout.
> snip>


 I suspect that the crash resulted in plastic deformation of the one or more bearing journals.
The spindle will never be stiff until all (quill and spindle) bearing journals are repaired to the proper diameter, precisely round and coaxial.


----------



## Charlieman22

extropic said:


> I suspect that the crash resulted in plastic deformation of the one or more bearing journals.
> The spindle will never be stiff until all (quill and spindle) bearing journals are repaired to the proper diameter, precisely round and coaxial.


Well - that is a polite I told you so (owed you that ).
And you are right - you did predict that was the case.
The only question on a 1980's CNC mill that someone gave to me might not be - did it crash into something - but rather - how many times...

Below is the image of the quill - and also the head.
I think I am clear on how to remove the quill/spindle assembly.
Are you saying that some of the bearing journals in the head assembly - also pictured below - also in need of removal and replacement if I want to get to factory or better perfection?


----------



## JimDawson

Only the spindle bearings should be effected, I would guess the bearings in the upper head would not damaged in a crash.  Nor should they affect the runout of the spindle.

PS. My MPG is alive again.  Replaced the encoder.


----------



## Weldingrod1

Btw, the drawbar pull is carried -only- by the steel rotating part/shaft. No load in the bearings. It's basically a tube... a fancy, annoying tube housed in irritating rattle-y bearings :-(
Here's hoping the rebuild isnt toooo expensive!

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


----------



## extropic

I'm saying that the two lower spindle bearings (41) the spacers (42, 43) the spindle (44) and the quill (46) all need to be evaluated.

From the runout data, the upper (small) end of the taper had little runout, so I would guess that the bend in the spindle is not far above top of the taper. I wouldn't expect the journals for the two bearings (38) to be damaged. In other words, I expect the spindle is bent between the top 41 and the lower 38. Maybe the spindle can be straightened to very close to factory. The spindle bearing (41) journals can be built up and reground. And of course, the taper reground.

I also expect, at least the lower quill bearing bore to be deformed. Both bores (for 41) need to be to size, cylindrical and concentric.

The preload spacers (42, 43) may well be damaged.

Setting the proper preload is a nontrivial process and best done by a real professional spindle builder.

All in all, I recommend sending it to a real professional spindle builder.


----------



## Charlieman22

JimDawson said:


> PS. My MPG is alive again. Replaced the encoder.


Think that puts it in the "damn near" indestructible category.  
Good news!
(I'll think about you every time I drop mine...)



Weldingrod1 said:


> Btw, the drawbar pull is carried -only- by the steel rotating part/shaft. No load in the bearings. It's basically a tube... a fancy, annoying tube housed in irritating rattle-y bearings :-(
> Here's hoping the rebuild isnt toooo expensive!


Weldingrod - thanks for the clarification.  Clear now.  Also - they should use your description in the parts book: "99.  Irratating rattle-y bearings.  2 - Req"...  
So true!



extropic said:


> All in all, I recommend sending it to a real professional spindle builder.


Ext.  I am fully there.
I have some work I want to complete before I tear it down.
I think I can hold a tight enough tolerance to get what I need - but then out comes the quill assembly for refurb by qualified group.
The 10EE has given me a taste of what a high precision machine feels and works like.
Addictive.
I want to be able to hold some tight tolerances - and the job will probably be worth it.


----------



## Charlieman22

Well - it's been a tough road so far on the spindle.
Doing some work with the mill - nothing like trying to find center on a critical tolerance part when you have runout...
Contacted a few places.
The ones that said - oh - just take the nose cone off and bring us the spindle - were taken off the list...
The most knowledgable - by far - guy I spoke with new the mill and was confident he could rebuild to perfection.
His quote: $4500 - $6500...
Then there were the out of state guys who said they could surely get it done for just $8500 (but I should budget $10K just in case).
Am going to need to find a more cost effective solution if I am going to make this work.
Not sure exactly what that is...
I'll keep searching.


----------



## JimDawson

That's crazy.  Give these guys a call.  They redid mine for <$1K, and I have virtually the same spindle that you do.
Make sure they know it's a Bridgeport clone machine.  








						C & M Precision Spindle
					

World-class Spindle Repair Services and Spindle Rebuilding since 1993




					www.cm-spindle.com


----------



## extropic

Charlieman22 said:


> Doing some work with the mill - nothing like trying to find center on a critical tolerance part when you have runout...


I don't quite understand what you're saying there. Taper runout has nothing to do with locating the center of rotation, as witnessed by the very congruent runout data you published earlier. Now, if the bearings/spindle have become so UN-stiff that the center of rotation is noticeably moving around while hand turning a DTI . . . I guess I would call that dead in the water.


----------



## extropic

Those spindle rebuild numbers are tough OK.
Another option, put out feelers for another mill, same model. Doesn't matter if it runs. You already have access to procedures to evaluate the condition of the spindle taper and stiffness.

I still recommend that you do, on your mill, the evaluation I described in reply #256 (Pg. 26). The experience should be educational and show you what you don't want to find in another.

Have you noticed my new signature line? LOL


----------



## JimDawson

A thought just occurred to me.  Put a tool holder in the spindle, tighten it up.  Put an indicator on it and push & pull side to side.  See if it is loose.  It is possible that the bearings are just loose.  I have actually had this happen before.


----------



## extropic

JimDawson said:


> A thought just occurred to me.  Put a tool holder in the spindle, tighten it up.  Put an indicator on it and push & pull side to side.  See if it is loose.  It is possible that the bearings are just loose.  I have actually had this happen before.


 Apparently you missed my reply #256 (Pg 26). That was PRE-regrind.


----------



## JimDawson

extropic said:


> Apparently you missed my reply #256 (Pg 26). That was PRE-regrind.


Yup, I missed that one.


----------



## Charlieman22

Alright - lemme tackle those one at a time.


JimDawson said:


> That's crazy.  Give these guys a call.  They redid mine for <$1K, and I have virtually the same spindle that you do.
> Make sure they know it's a Bridgeport clone machine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> C & M Precision Spindle
> 
> 
> World-class Spindle Repair Services and Spindle Rebuilding since 1993
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cm-spindle.com


Thanks.  Was hoping my post my elicit a few better options.  Learned a lot along the way.  Was a helpful process.
May try these guys.



extropic said:


> I don't quite understand what you're saying there. Taper runout has nothing to do with locating the center of rotation, as witnessed by the very congruent runout data you published earlier. Now, if the bearings/spindle have become so UN-stiff that the center of rotation is noticeably moving around while hand turning a DTI . . . I guess I would call that dead in the water.


When I use a coaxial indicator - it continues to bounce even if it is inside a baby smith ID bushing.
When I turn the spindle, using an indicator - it turns and then occasionally just jumps 3 tenths - but if I reverse it - it doesn't go back to what it was - which it should - if the feeler point was falling into a hole or popping over a high spot.  



extropic said:


> Those spindle rebuild numbers are tough OK.
> Another option, put out feelers for another mill, same model. Doesn't matter if it runs. You already have access to procedures to evaluate the condition of the spindle taper and stiffness.
> 
> I still recommend that you do, on your mill, the evaluation I described in reply #256 (Pg. 26). The experience should be educational and show you what you don't want to find in another.
> 
> Have you noticed my new signature line? LOL


Yep - spindle numbers are a stopper.
Thought of that - but TBH - I'm not sure the question for a 1980's CNC mill is: "did it crash?" More appropriate would probably be: "How many times did it crash".  I would expect any and all to potentially have similar issues.  

That said - I would like to improve mine.  
I am fairly (but only fairly) sure the inability to get my Blake coaxial indicator to settle down properly is due to the bearings.



extropic said:


> Apparently you missed my reply #256 (Pg 26). That was PRE-regrind.


You guys lost me on this one a bit.
I can get some movement if I put an indicator on a tool and grab the tool and push/pull it.
Did the regrind remove the meaningfulness of this excersize?
It was there before - and remained after the regrind.

I assume the bearing tightness is determined by the nose cone?
Ext - did your post #256 address this in some manner that I am missing?

Oh - and signature line?   Must be sniffing too much cutting oil- I don't see any signature at all.


----------



## extropic

Charlieman22 said:


> When I use a coaxial indicator - it continues to bounce even if it is inside a baby smith ID bushing.


I don't know what a "baby smith ID bushing" is but I'll assume the ID is precisely cylindrical with a fine surface finish. If my assumption is erroneous, please advise.


Charlieman22 said:


> When I turn the spindle, using an indicator - it turns and then occasionally just jumps 3 tenths - but if I reverse it - it doesn't go back to what it was - which it should - if the feeler point was falling into a hole or popping over a high spot.


The description is indicative of bad bearings. For the purposes of this discussion, "bad bearings" includes bad bearing mountings.


Charlieman22 said:


> I would expect any and all to potentially have similar issues.


That is a particularly pessimistic view. LA is a huge used machinery market with many dealers. All I suggested was "put out feelers.
Have I impressed you so poorly that Poo-Poo is the default response to my suggestions?


Charlieman22 said:


> That said - I would like to improve mine.


That's an admirable objective. I suppose it depends on exactly what you mean by "improve".
Given that you declined to do the procedure in reply #256 (pre-regrind), I don't know what to suggest or expect next.


Charlieman22 said:


> I am fairly (but only fairly) sure the inability to get my Blake coaxial indicator to settle down properly is due to the bearings.


I don't have any experience with a Blake coaxial indicator. I think they are .0005" reading indicators. I would use a .00005" reading indicator to evaluate the bearings and housings.


Charlieman22 said:


> You guys lost me on this one a bit.
> I can get some movement if I put an indicator on a tool and grab the tool and push/pull it.


Not well described so not germane.


Charlieman22 said:


> Did the regrind remove the meaningfulness of this excersize?
> It was there before - and remained after the regrind.


I'm not certain of what the regrind did. Based on your comments, it didn't improve the runout and now you see erratic eccentricity which you attribute to "bad bearings". Cause unknown. On the other hand, the runout data you provided, pre re-grind, seemed to describe relatively smooth circular elements (no erratic readings).


Charlieman22 said:


> I assume the bearing tightness is determined by the nose cone?


The NOSE-PIECE (48) has nothing to do with mounting the bearings.


Charlieman22 said:


> Ext - did your post #256 address this in some manner that I am missing?


Address what? Reply #256 said nothing about taking anything apart or making any adjustments. If you read #256 and need additional clarification, please reply with photos illustrating the problem.


Charlieman22 said:


> Oh - and signature line?   Must be sniffing too much cutting oil- I don't see any signature at all.


Step away from the cutting oil.

Your choice of options has exhausted me. Good night.

VVVVVVVV SIGNATURE LINE VVVVVVVVV


----------



## Charlieman22

extropic said:


> I don't know what a "baby smith ID bushing" is but I'll assume the ID is precisely cylindrical with a fine surface finish. If my assumption is erroneous, please advise.


Indeed.  It would seem spell correct got the best of me - should have read baby SMOOTH.



extropic said:


> That's an admirable objective. I suppose it depends on exactly what you mean by "improve".
> Given that you declined to do the procedure in reply #256 (pre-regrind), I don't know what to suggest or expect next.


Not sure the disconnect.
I thought the experienced symptoms, and lack of correction through grinding, had left us all agreed that my bearings (and or seats) are likely damaged and at the heart of my runout. 
With the decision to have the spindle and quill reworked - my presumption was I was addressing any damaged components.
This is why I did not proceed with further testing.
*I also lack some of the items to do the job currently.


extropic said:


> I'm not certain of what the regrind did. Based on your comments, it didn't improve the runout and now you see erratic eccentricity which you attribute to "bad bearings". Cause unknown.


Just to clarify - the erratic conditions were there prior to the taper grinding.  



extropic said:


> The NOSE-PIECE (48) has nothing to do with mounting the bearings.


Jim mentioned his experience with bearing tension.
The the tech who worked on the machine also mentioned it - and said the nose piece is tightened to tension them.
My comments were based on what I understood to be the method.

As for my lack of enthusiasm around looking for an additional used machine - it's a practical one.
I'm juggling right now - so trying to be as efficient with my time as possible.
I would expect to pay as much or more to acquire a used machine - or parts - as it would take to get the spindle reworked in the end.
So that one got considered - but back burnered for now.
On the other hand, If it turns out that spindle rework is now truly a $5000 operation - then I will rethink that.

_My general take was - finding a more reasonably priced spindle repair shop is the most efficient/highest value/lowest risk approach to improving if not perfecting the accuracy/consistency of my machine._

I think this stands - though I can't say I am overjoyed to have to pull down the machine or write the check.
Win some lose some.
Since I didn't see additional data changing that - I thought it best to focus my time on finding a more reasonably priced shop.


----------



## JimDawson

Locknut #39 sets the preload on the bearings.  But you can't get to it without dropping the quill out of the head.

To put this in perspective, at $5000 I would fix the thing myself, at about $1000 I would send it to a shop.  It's not rocket surgery, but I'm lazy.


----------



## Charlieman22

JimDawson said:


> Locknut #39 sets the preload on the bearings.  But you can't get to it without dropping the quill out of the head.
> 
> To put this in perspective, at $5000 I would fix the thing myself, at about $1000 I would send it to a shop.  It's not rocket surgery, but I'm lazy.


Got it.
That perspective matches mine.

My assumption is - I am going to find a qualified group that want the $1200 range to bring this to tight spec.
It's tempting to add tension to the bearings - mostly just for the R&D - but I am using the mill currently for a project.
Additionally - my suspicion is deformed seats, bent spindle - or both - though I suppose its possible that even with those conditions, a bit of snugging might yield improvements - if not cause quicker wear.

BTW - this arrived.  Very nice! Did we know we were getting the extra components?  Off to give high rating on Ebay.
Am sure others have found themselves in this position: Want to get my project done - then will make the mill my project.
Wish it was the other way around - but time demands on the first project mean I need to work with what I have.


----------



## JimDawson

Charlieman22 said:


> Did we know we were getting the extra components?



Cool!

Yes, those were listed in the ad.  You got a couple hundred $ in cables and breakouts there.  All you need is the power cable.

QTY 1 Power cable for above
https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/molex/2451350220/6564767
2 Position Cable Assembly Rectangular Socket to Socket 6.56' (2.00m)
Mini-Fit Jr 245135


----------



## Charlieman22

certainly was a good (and very generous) find.
thanks Jim.


----------



## JimDawson

Charlieman22 said:


> certainly was a good (and very generous) find.
> thanks Jim.



If you hadn't needed it, I would have instantly hit the Buy Now button.  I would have bought it just for my stock.  That was the best deal on one I have ever seen.

My pleasure to help out.


----------



## extropic

Charlieman22 said:


> Just to clarify - the erratic conditions were there prior to the taper grinding.


I don't recall you reporting erratic indications earlier. The runout data table was the most definitive spindle condition information published here and certainly didn't demonstrate erratic readings.
Erratic readings was important information to disclose in no uncertain terms.


Charlieman22 said:


> The the tech who worked on the machine also mentioned it - and said the nose piece is tightened to tension them.
> My comments were based on what I understood to be the method.


 

I don't know what to recommend or expect next.


----------



## Charlieman22

Well - I don't (completely) blame you for the confusion.
Keep in mind - there is an element of unknowns for me - and there is also an element of discovery for all of us.
I ran the test - exactly as you prescribed - and it delivered some interesting results.
I probably listened more carefully than you realized.

You noted that I should watch out for big jumps that might be caused from a single burr or hole - so I made sure that I wasn't measuring that.
But my understanding of that direction had its own consequences.
When I saw the sudden jump of the indicator needle - I assumed it must be the burr or hole you warned me about.

I made sure not to measure that exact point when giving my readings.
It never occurred to me that the sudden jumps were something other than specific small issues in the taper surface.
Until the tech showed me - "hey, if it was a hole or a bump, then when I reverse the spindle with my hand - it should bounce back the exact same way"
That's when I cottoned on that I had an erratic issue - rather than just a surface issue with the taper.

It's a process.


----------



## Charlieman22

Spent the weekend using the mill.
Will share a little as it shows some pertinent machine performance and my (lack of) know how.

Before I jump tho - quick update on mill runout.
I have my feelers out for a reasonably priced quill rebuilder.
Though I joked about it in my last post, any readers of this thread are aware that Extropic anticipated and correctly diagnosed a bearing issue.
Tech was to test for that before he ground the spindle - but only detected the issue afterwards...
Painful - but sometimes in a war... you take a bullet.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I am hungry to to get my scooter back on the road, so tackling the fix with the mill as is.
As noted - finding center is a challenge - but I came up with a means to deal with the run out.
Not sure if it is machinist approved - but It appears to be working for me.

Issue with my scooter motor cases is a worn out main bearing seat and a "rotary pad".
In simple terms - the rotary pad must sit .05mm (.002") off the outer edge of the crank web.
My plan was to center the cases, and do both jobs off that center to stay concentric.
At issue was finding an accurate center.

How I approached:
First I center the cases with a coaxial centering tool.
Next, I blued the cases and put the boring head in.
I then put the mill in neutral - so I could spin by hand, and rotated the boring head.
I continued to sneak it out by .001 until I got first contact on the cutting surface.
If it didn't touch the same surface 180° opposite - I would move the axis.
I repeated this - .001 out with the boring head, check for touch on 180° surfaces - until I got touch on both sides.




Once I managed to find center in this fashion, I cut both surfaces.



My knowledge on speed and feeds is weak - but measuring of the holes after processing showed they were round to within .01mm or .0004".
That surprised me given my runout - but none the less - it was a good surprise.
I also learned the hard way not to try it slow - when the boring bar grabbed the case and moved it on my first attempt...

I made a couple parts on the 10EE lathe - which reminded me what a pleasure it is to work with a tight tolerance machine.
The brass BRONZE part is press fit - and needed to be .1mm (.004") oversized for the hole I cut.  Was amazed that I was able to hit it.
The aluminum ring will have a section cut out of it for the inlet pad I previously noted.




I pressed the brass bearing in after heating the cases - and it is not coming out...




Couple observations.
I used the Jim Dawson rest my hand on the Y axis trick to keep on center.
X didnt seem to want to move around as much.
While the Mill is clearly not right - there seems to be a kind of consistency to its run out?  The bored holes seem quite concentric.

Jim - can you remind me - the new system - will it in some way keep the motor engaged to hold on a spot?
Also - with no tacho on the servos being used - how will it know it's position?

Excite to get to the conversion - just have to finish this project and find a quill repair shop first.
Perhaps with a little luck - I can do the quill work and conversion in parallel in parts if not in whole.


----------



## mattthemuppet2

nice! Quick Q though - is that brass bushing actually a bearing surface? Or is it a spacer to hold a bearing? If it's a bearing surface you might want to press it out and redo it in bearing bronze


----------



## JimDawson

Charlieman22 said:


> Jim - can you remind me - the new system - will it in some way keep the motor engaged to hold on a spot?
> Also - with no tacho on the servos being used - how will it know it's position?



The short answer is: The magnetic scales are fed directly to the controller and will be able to detect any attempted movement, the controller will then signal the drive to apply torque to the motor to correct for that within the 1 micron resolution of the scales.  The tachs on the motors are fed back to the drives only and are only used for velocity control and have no real function in station keeping.  My machine normally holds +/- 1 micron when position holding.

The longer answer is: It gets into motion control theory, PID loops, commanded position vs. position error, and loop speed.  Entire books are written on this subject.  And I don't feel like writing a book today.    And I am busy proving out my latest code changes to make sure my lathe CNC code is 100% compatible with the Haas ST-10 lathe post processor that I'm using now with my C axis installation, where I used to use the older Haas Turn post processor that did not have C axis and mill/turn capability.  There are some major differences between the two.  Oh and maintaining backward compatibility so I don't have to repost some of my older G code files which were partially hand written.


----------



## Charlieman22

mattthemuppet2 said:


> nice! Quick Q though - is that brass bushing actually a bearing surface? Or is it a spacer to hold a bearing? If it's a bearing surface you might want to press it out and redo it in bearing bronze


Mathew - its a "spacer" then a steel complete bearing is pressed into.
It is actually Bronze - did I type brass?  Oops.  At least I actually spec'd the right thing in action.


JimDawson said:


> The short answer is: The magnetic scales are fed directly to the controller and will be able to detect any attempted movement, the controller will then signal the drive to apply torque to the motor to correct for that within the 1 micron resolution of the scales.  The tachs on the motors are fed back to the drives only and are only used for velocity control and have no real function in station keeping.  My machine normally holds +/- 1 micron when position holding.
> 
> The longer answer is: It gets into motion control theory, PID loops, commanded position vs. position error, and loop speed.  Entire books are written on this subject.  And I don't feel like writing a book today.    And I am busy proving out my latest code changes to make sure my lathe CNC code is 100% compatible with the Haas ST-10 lathe post processor that I'm using now with my C axis installation, where I used to use the older Haas Turn post processor that did not have C axis and mill/turn capability.  There are some major differences between the two.  Oh and maintaining backward compatibility so I don't have to repost some of my older G code files which were partially hand written.


You had me at: the magnetic scales are still used and feed the controller directly.
Great! (I thought that was the case but then started to question my understanding).
Thanks for taking a moment.
Good luck with the lathe CNC compatibility project!
I'm off to try and find some HSS in small size I can weld on to my 3/4 boaring bar to get into a tight space...


----------



## Charlieman22

Quick check in here.
Work and a project (which I am using the mill for) have my conversion to CNC on temp hold - bit longer than anticipated.
Have a few more parts in - but need to collect the rest of them from my list.

Some real discovery from using the mill on this project, and a question.

On discovery: I have been pleasantly surprised how well I can get it to perform a boring task.
The measured run out seems manageable - when doing it by hand.
Not to say I don't want to have it repaired.
Below are the motor cases I am working on.
There is a replacement pad I fabricated on the 10EE lathe - and welded into place.
I then put it on the mill and centered - using bluing ink to fine adjust so that the bearing bar was basically cleaning the ink off evenly around the perimeter.

I then cut the pad so that it would have a certain clearance to the crank shaft that gets inserted.
Pic's worth 1000 words - so here is one
The green arrow points to the welded in pad that I subsequently cut to a tight tolerance clearance to the crank shaft.
	

		
			
		

		
	



	

		
			
		

		
	
So the discovery is that I have been able to mostly workaround my issue, at least with boring.
That may not be the case for other process.

The question: 
My machine has a central oiling feature.
I have been just using a by hand method - but it struck me I wasn't accessing the precious spindle bearings.
Further - I noticed that the oil line that is feeding into the head has been disconnected.

I assume my lines may be clogged in places.
I would at minimum like to feed oil into the spindle for the short term.
How does one ascertain if they are getting oil into the spindle bearings?
(I assume I could use a syringe to try and "pump" some oil in to the tube that goes into the head.
How might I treat the lines to get them primed with fresh oil?
Welcome some thoughts - can provide more pics if needed.

Thanks,
-CM


----------



## sdelivery

For flushing and leak detecting or visually looking for flow through lines I like to use ORDINARY ATF. nothing special. It has the ability to clean. 
Of course you will need to flush this out as well.
Any pictures I have the same machine but with the A/B controller.
I received zero documentation but I can follow the lines.


----------



## JimDawson

The oil line to the head most likely only lubricates the Z ball screw and maybe the quill.  The spindle bearings are most likely greased at assembly and not lubricated again until rebuild.  Continuous lubrication of spindle bearings is normally only found on high speed spindle machines.


----------



## Charlieman22

sdelivery said:


> For flushing and leak detecting or visually looking for flow through lines I like to use ORDINARY ATF. nothing special. It has the ability to clean.
> Of course you will need to flush this out as well.
> Any pictures I have the same machine but with the A/B controller.
> I received zero documentation but I can follow the lines.


Good stuff.    Wouldn't have thought of that.  Also - can finally get rid of the bottle of ATF that is next to my oil.  .   Thanks!



JimDawson said:


> The oil line to the head most likely only lubricates the Z ball screw and maybe the quill. The spindle bearings are most likely greased at assembly and not lubricated again until rebuild. Continuous lubrication of spindle bearings is normally only found on high speed spindle machines.


Ok - that makes me feel better - was starting to consider what kind of damage I might inflict (not that they aren't due for refurb...)
Good insight on where continuous feed normally resides.

With the two above responses - I am fairly confident I can trace and flush all the lines - then refill the reservoir with my fresh Vactra #2.

While I am hear - I have been wondering about researching/doing some unconventional machining to clean up the edges of my motor cases.
Wonder if there is a name for what I am thinking of (cant wait to see some of the responses to that one... stupid/dangerous/hair brained...)
First - the goal:
When I reworked these old cases - I had to do a significant amount of build up with weld material on some warped and damaged areas.


	

		
			
		

		
	
That area circled in green eventually had weld material built up to fill it all out.
I then used a surfacing tool to re-surface it - the results of which are below.


	

		
			
		

		
	
The red arrow shows how some of the weld material now overlaps into the inside of the case.
For speed and simplicity - what I would LIKE to do - but thought I would ask about is this:
 - Bolt cases to a heavy base that can slide on my table.
 - Put 2 flute end mill in and spin at relatively high speed.
 - Slide the base with the cases around BY HAND to trim back the edges nicely, tracing back to where they should be and giving a nice defined 90 degree edge back.

Fear of course would be the work being grabbed - slung - ruined - etc.
Is this madness - or is there such thing as "free handing" on a mill?
(teeth gritted for the responses.  let them rain).
-CM


----------



## matthewsx

I would clamp the work to the table and use the x and y to move it.

Maybe you already said but what kind of engines are you working on? I used to build racing kart engines.

John


----------



## Charlieman22

Thanks John - 
Similar world.
Rotary valve two stroke Vespa engines.  started life ~ 150cc 6 HP but now live around 200CC and ~20-25HP.
The challenge is - the curvey nature of the case shape.
Have a look at the red lines below - its an example of areas that I want to trim/clean up - that have some S curve shapes.
I took the chance to post - to see if what I had proposed was actually a thing - that had a name - figuring if it did - I could research it on YouTube as well and see people doing it.
Long shot...  IK.


----------



## JimDawson

Charlieman22 said:


> For speed and simplicity - what I would LIKE to do - but thought I would ask about is this:
> - Bolt cases to a heavy base that can slide on my table.
> - Put 2 flute end mill in and spin at relatively high speed.
> - Slide the base with the cases around BY HAND to trim back the edges nicely, tracing back to where they should be and giving a nice defined 90 degree edge back.
> 
> Fear of course would be the work being grabbed - slung - ruined - etc.
> Is this madness - or is there such thing as "free handing" on a mill?
> (teeth gritted for the responses. let them rain).
> -CM


----------



## Charlieman22

Hahaha. Yep. 

liked that better than the other option you had:
“Uh, that’s why you are making it CNC sparky”…

Ok. It’s NOT a thing.
Got it. 
Everyone, as you were.


----------



## Charlieman22

Gents - hope this finds you well and enjoying the season.
Been some time since I posted... thought I would check in and set up my post for the near year.

Where we last left off - a few months ago...
- Was on the verge of going CNC.
- In the middle of negotiating for a controller from Asia - Jim found me a great deal on one domestically
- Some minor - but annoying runout in my spindle had me chasing options for rebuild
- I was trying to finish up my Vespa project so I could turn my attention to the mill conversion.

That last little bit - the Vespa project - sucked me in like a sink hole.
In addition - my paying job has annoyingly taken a great deal of my time.
Which is to say - too many projects/ little has been done on the mill.

Goal is to re-start the CNC project in mid Jan.
Thought I would bring the shopping list back to the forefront, and re-commence the hunting and gathering.

Side note: that Vespa project noted above forced my hand on using quite a bit of the mill and lathe (10ee)
Gotten a lot more comfortable around the machines.
The more I've used it - the more I'm excited about going CNC.

So with that - *a big thank you to everyone that contributed to getting me up and running/knowledge base, this year.*
Was incredibly helpful from moving to start up and use.

Below - the shopping list:

Happy New Year all!


> QTY 1 I use these in all my machines, and have installed about 75 units over the last 20 or so years. This is the best deal I could find on eBay at the moment. I would make a lowball offer and see what happens, I have purchased these for as little as $100. These retail at about $2400.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Galil DMC-4040 motion control | eBay​Used, working condition.
> www.ebay.com
> Galil DMC-4040, 4 axis motion controller
> 
> QTY 1 Power cable for above
> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/molex/2451350220/6564767
> 2 Position Cable Assembly Rectangular Socket to Socket 6.56' (2.00m)
> Mini-Fit Jr 245135
> 
> QTY 4 Encoder connectors
> DB15HD Slim Breakout Board with Screw Terminals - Winford Engineering
> DB15HD Male Connector:
> BRKSD15HDM-C
> 
> QTY 1 I/O connector
> DB44HD Breakout Board with Screw Terminals - Winford Engineering
> DB44HD Female Right Angle Connector:
> BRKDD44HDFV2-R-DIN
> 
> QTY 1 I/O connector
> DB44HD Male Right Angle Connector:
> BRKDD44HDMV2-R-DIN
> 
> QTY 2 Cables for I/O connectors
> 44-Pin (HD44) Deluxe HD D-Sub Cable - Copper Shielded - Male / Female​44-pin (HD44) Copper Shielded High Density Male/Female D-Sub Cables by Amphenol provide exceptional performance in commercial, industrial or enterprise applications where longevity and repeated disconnects are required. Our fully assembled Deluxe HD D-Sub Cable integrates copper tape + aluminum...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cablesondemand.com
> 44-PIN (HD44) DELUXE HD D-SUB CABLE - COPPER SHIELDED - MALE / FEMALE
> CS-DSDHD44MF0-002.5
> 
> QTY 1 Not required but nice to have. I have this same one on my lathe and have beat the hell out of it, it is still alive after two years of abuse.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Universal CNC 4 Axis MPG Pendant Handwheel & Emergency Stop for Siemens US xs90* | eBay​X,Y,Z,4th axis selector switch. - Required 5V+, 150mA, power for MPG. Support CNC system - User can wire this unit to the CNC system with easy. - x1, x10, x100 switch. - Magnetic base holder can place anywhere on the machine steel surface.
> www.ebay.com
> Universal CNC 4 Axis MPG Pendant Handwheel
> 
> QTY 1 Relay interface for digital outputs
> Amazon.com
> 5V Relay Module with Optocoupler Isolation
> 
> QTY 1
> Any Win7 or Win10 computer or laptop, I prefer a Mini PC. keyboard, mouse, monitor, and ethernet cable
> Amazon.com : mini computer


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## Charlieman22

Update:
Plans got a little off track.
By which I mean - shortly after my last posting - I totally changed directions and decided to sell my home.
17 years/2 kids/dog/wife/garage/ full monty.
Took 5 months of all out effort to put it in the shape I wanted for sale.
Milling machine, with its home made feeding system documented in these pages - earned its keep - and then some.

At the center of the projects I tackled, rather than contracted, was a set of gates.
Two double swing driveway, and a pedestrian.
Fully automated, buried loops to avoid crushing of vehicles, etc.
Was quoted $70K (not a typo) in the free for all that was the Los Angeles market.
Decided to tackle myself instead; 1/2 out of spite.
Turns out those guys earn their money...
Who knew?

Tig welded steel frame cores, clad with wood, swung on custom hinges - courtesy of the 5BVK...
Came together just like my drawings - only a bit heavier in person...

Which brings me to this moment.
4 days before closing.
Life in boxes.
Trailer rented for yet another machinery load & haul.
Small house near the ocean rented.
Only...
No machines allowed in its garage!

So I gave up and put all my tools in storage.

Kidding!
Have been hunting a long held dream - a small industrial space.
Last week, found a gem near my new home - with space for both storage and workshop.
Family owned facility.
Others doing similar stuff.
Seems like a good fit.

Which brings this long winded post to the question at hand.
*New space has "208 three phase".*
I am currently running my mill on a VFD off 220 single phase.
Naive about how to best approach (suspect I am going to need a new VFD).
Reaching out to the crowd for some advice on how I might approach most efficiently.

Exhausted.
Excited.

Thanks in advance for any that weigh in.
CM


Trial by fire learning to operate the machine.  


Not so bad fit up of the electronic strike for pedestrian gate - imperfections evident...




Bit of fancy welding for some "hidden" hydraulic hinges that gave everything a super high end feel



Internal frames before I clad with wood.  Driveway versions got so heavy - took all I had to maneuver & mount




Finished product came out nicely.  Not everyone in my neighborhood has a mill... actually, no one in my neighborhood even owns a lawn mower...  Am sure they thought I had lost my mind - which was ok with me - as I fit and re-fit the frames until they were just as I wanted.  Will drag this mill with me to my grave.  Amazing tool.




The dream.  1300+ sq. feet of space to set up shop.  20 min from my new digs.  Will need a clean up and some better lighting - but this is an absolute luxury compared to the garage I was shoe horned in previously.  Need to think about layout, air, and power.





Electrical boxes


----------



## JimDawson

Well that's a bit of a change.    

Very  nice work on the gates.

As far as the 208 3 ph, hook it up and go.  It will work fine.


----------



## Charlieman22

Chuckle.  Yeah - there I was - sizing up a machine restore and CNC conversion - and the next thing I knew - I was fabricating gates.
Thanks for the good words.

Far better a response on power than I was bracing for.
The space is just so good - figured this would be the  - "oh - you need 220" moment.

Will have to go back and look - but seems like outlets on wall looked like regular 110.
I will put a multi meter to them and take a closer look next week.
Owner was clear tho - "3 phase 208" - so perhaps not.
But the certainly weren't the fat 3 prong 220 outlets of my garage.

Is this really no more than changing the plug on my machine?!
Current VFD is for single to 3 phase.
Would I be getting rid of the VFD?


----------



## extropic

Beautiful gates and congratulations on the new shop space.

Looks like about 12 foot ceiling height. For dead (don't need it often) storage, think volume, not area (floorspace). You can line some of the walls with pallet rack and get what ever apparatus (mobile stairs, manual pallet stacker, electric pallet stacker) to lift what ever you're storing up there.
That approach leaves the floor space almost unimpaired. Use same lifting apparatus as a work platform when adding electrical/lighting/air. You're a relatively young man but electric pallet stacker is the way to go. No matter how smooth/flat/level the floor is, a 2000 pound load on a push-around pallet stacker is no fun. Come to think of it, just moving the push-around stacker is no fun.

Lighting: LED obviously. Put up enough receptacles in the ceiling to add fixtures wherever you want. I've seen comments on H-M suggesting 4000-5000K color and 40-50 lumens/sf is the right ballpark. I think @rabler mentioned fixtures with selectable color.

Do you have a drive-thru door? If not how wide is the widest door?

Here is a graphic of best practices for air piping layout. PVC is a safety no-no. I use copper/sweat in my shop. I don't think it would meet industrial code for fire safety though (solder will melt). Brazed copper should be AOK. Black pipe is the industrial standard but a PITA, IMO.
Top zoot plastic coated aluminum systems are available but too expensive for my taste. Put the compressor as far away as you can from your primary work areas for for obvious reasons. On top of the pallet rack with a drain accessible would be my choice.


----------



## extropic

PS: you could use a pallet stacker as a lift/work platform for your Vespa interests also.


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## Charlieman22

Extropic - thank you!
(Put a number of your tips and tricks in to practice in my gate build).
Diagram on compressor is enlightening - had not considered any of that geometry prior.

Ceiling heights might be as much as 14' in the work space.
Current lighting is atrocious as you've spotted.
I think LED's in that color range would be ideal.
Will definitely be part of the plan.
Good light is such a game changer for a work space.

Noise can fatigue and wear you out - so I like where you are going with the compressor thinking - and its going to save me steps.
Perhaps it would even warrant a small enclosure - its the bane of my existing in present garage.
Locating it remotely is 10/10 suggestion.

My mill, as some will recall - came with a coolant tray for the base.
I've had it leaning up outside the garage - because it was impractical to set up in my garage like that.
Taking it CNC with the tray in this larger space feels much more practical as a configuration.
I can actually imagine running coolant with it in this space.

The door is roll a roll up - wide enough to just drive the whole damn truck and tailor in.
What a pleasure that will be after the shoe horning I had to pull off getting it into my garage from the driveway.

Excited to get back to the machines - with a space that will allow nice work to be done.
Considering a rolling gantry crane - to allow bigger projects.
Haven't yet determined racking plan vs storage needs.  To come.
Tks.


----------



## extropic

When considering an enclosure for a compressor keep in mind that it is air-cooled so needs constant air exchange. I suggest a fan to pump air in and adequate exhaust venting area.


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## extropic

You should consider starting a new thread (maybe "My New Shop Space") in the specific forum to get best visibility (help) for that task.









						OUR SHOPS AND THE SPACES WE WORK IN (Shop Photos)
					

Where do you do your machining work? No, don't just tell us, SHOW us!




					www.hobby-machinist.com
				




or









						LAYOUT & BUILD A HOME SHOP
					

This is long time coming. Have you built or are you building a home shop? Let us see how you did it!!




					www.hobby-machinist.com
				




If you start a new thread, post a link to it in this thread so nobody gets lost.


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## Firstram

Charlieman22 said:


> Which brings this long winded post to the question at hand.
> *New space has "208 three phase".*
> I am currently running my mill on a VFD off 220 single phase.
> Naive about how to best approach (suspect I am going to need a new VFD).
> Reaching out to the crowd for some advice on how I might approach most efficiently.


The VFD should be fine with 208, read the instructions! 

Check the nameplate voltage on all of your 220 equipment, if it says 230 volt you are good to go. A 230 v motor is designed to operate on 208 or 240, just make sure theres no voltage drop. If you are actually getting much less than 208 the motors won't live very long. 
If you have 240v motors look into buck/boost transformers to bump the voltage up. 115-120 will still be the same on a 3 phase system.

Enjoy the new shop!!!


----------



## JimDawson

Charlieman22 said:


> Considering a rolling gantry crane - to allow bigger projects.


 Forklift!  First new tool I bought when I moved into my shop.

As far as power, it doesn't look like there has ever been 3 phase used in that shop.  No big deal, you just need to add the breaker and a drop where you want the power.  Due to the nature of the 120/208 system, you can pull both single phase and 3 phase from the panel very easy.  When I was thinking about repowering my shop with 3 phase, I took an inventory and realized that everything in there would be happy running on 208V.


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## Charlieman22

Had a small chuckle - you guys are as good at spending my money as I am!
Much appreciate the good words/encouragement.
Am excited about the space.

Kidding aside - a pallet jack or fork lift would be phenomenal tools.
I've eyed up a few close by shops that look like they have 'em...
May have to befriend.
Would be gold standard to have my own.

Extropic - will read through those threads for more good ideas.  Thank you.
Perhaps if I go whole hog on shop - will create my own shop thread.
Since current focus remains on power supply - will continue with specifics here.



Firstram said:


> The VFD should be fine with 208, read the instructions!


Busted - though in my defense - the instructions are written by non-English writers... Jim had experience with the brand - and helped direct prior set up for current 220 single phase conversion.  Are you thinking it might make mention of 208 input?



Firstram said:


> Check the nameplate voltage on all of your 220 equipment, if it says 230 volt you are good to go. A 230 v motor is designed to operate on 208 or 240,


Nameplate (not in good shape) says 220.  Images below from different angles to help make more legible.


Firstram said:


> just make sure theres no voltage drop.


Noted. Tks


Firstram said:


> If you have 240v motors look into buck/boost transformers to bump the voltage up. 115-120 will still be the same on a 3 phase system.


Mine say 220 rather than 230 or 240.  
Not sure how that effects your thoughts on setup?



JimDawson said:


> it doesn't look like there has ever been 3 phase used in that shop.





JimDawson said:


> Due to the nature of the 120/208 system, you can pull both single phase and 3 phase from the panel very easy.


Ok - fact I was not aware of.
Made me go back and look for better pics. 
 Closer look.  I think they had 220 breakers in here at some point.  Marked "Bench" in image below.
Would that have been single or three phase just depending on how the breaker  was wired?
May change my thinking on solutions.
Does this mean I could possibly run single phase 208 outlets off this box just by how I wire?
Would that operate my mill properly 

One other factor in my thinking:


JimDawson said:


> When I was thinking about repowering my shop with 3 phase, I took an inventory and realized that everything in there would be happy running on 208V.


I actually have a second machine.  It's a Monarch 10EE lathe with a Sabina solid state drive replacing its original tubes.  460V!  DC Motor is wound for 460 as well.  
Currently have it operational on an RPC and a step down converter running in reverse taking my 220 single phase to 460 3 phase.  
Doing some research on how best to deal with that as well.
My current power supply conversion is for 220 single phase.  Garage set up has me unplugging and plugging the two machines into the single  outlet I have.






Motor tag.  The line under Amp (which is stamped 14.7) reads 'Bearing"  The line under that reads "Design" - I think.
​


----------



## Firstram

That 220v motor will be fine running on 208v.


----------



## JimDawson

A 208/460 3 phase transformer is all you need to run your 10EE, you may already have that.

Here is a basic 208 panel


----------



## extropic

@Charlieman22 

Please show a picture of the main breaker so we can be sure that you have a three phase service.
The picture you provided of the load center looks like a single phase box to me (not an expert).


----------



## Firstram

Post #325


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## extropic

Firstram said:


> Post #325



Wouldn't you still like to see the main breaker?


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## Charlieman22

Shop is about 1.5 hours south of where I live currently.
Headed down to sign lease mid week.
This discussion excellent warm up.
Will shoot more pics when there.

Jim - that picture is an education on its own.  Great!

Thinking through how I might set up.
Variables included cost/complexity/DIY/existing equipment.
Clear now I have some options.

Current thinking:
My TIG welder is a 220 single phase.
So 208 single phase circuit is on the table (will check with manufacturer regarding 208).
5BVK would nicely plug in to a 220 single phase - runs great now as such.
So two outlets - ea. 208 single phase makes sense to me.

As for the 10EE -  current set up works - but not ideal in my view.
It runs off 460V 3-PH.
Diagram of existing set up below.

Basic set up.  House 220 1-PH, bumped up to 440 through reverse knock down transformer.
Looks like from tag that is only single phase - so might not be able to re-use if I want to get rid of the RPC
Which I do.  It's loud, and probably undersized at 5HP.  Preference would be to use the 3 phase.

Think what is required is either 3 phase Wye 208 delta to 416 (or 440 or 460) up converter.
Or
Run a 3 phase knock down transformer in reverse.
From what I read - requires "Corner grounded" system (not sure what that means), amongst other things.
Not sure exactly what that means.
Or
Additional 208 single phase outlet - and just plug it in like I have it now with RPC

_Any help identifying what Wye up converter would do the job on 3 phase 208 outlet would be welcome._

Existing 10EE




Tag on my 10EE (Sabina DC drive)




Edit - this is the paper work I found in my 10EE RPC cover.
Suspect it is showing the buck converter that takes it from 440 to 460.
Note "Connected" verbiage.
The connected 440 is a picture from the RPC box itslef.
Think it means that the RPC is set up to receive 440.


----------



## Charlieman22

Think I have my solution.
Will take a bit of work when back to California.
On trip now - which included picking this up.


Seller was in Chattanooga Tennessee.
Conversation went something like this:
Hi - I'd like to buy your transformer.
Him: Sure - but they are expensive to ship.
Me: NP - I'll just come pick it up.
Him: Great, where are you coming from.
Me: California.
Long silence...


----------



## Charlieman22

Happy New Year all!
Back on my feet post COVID.
Brutal.
First order of business - sort out the electrical for my machinery.

Three main units (not including std 110V 1-P stuff):
10EE Lathe 3-P  460V
Webb Mill - 220 3-P native.  Using 1-P to 3-P VFD.
TIG Welder 220V 1-P 

Transformer I purchased above intended for the 10EE.  Check.
As for mill:


Firstram said:


> That 220v motor will be fine running on 208v.


When I first read this - I assumed Firstram meant 208 3-P, and that I would need to set my VFD up accordingly...
(Electrical not being my strength)...
Now re-reading - believe Firstram meant *single phase* 208V?  

If correct - I will be able to run a line of 208 1-P outlets to service both mill and welder.
Seams highly doable.

Thanks.
-CM


----------



## JimDawson

Welcome back!


----------



## extropic

Happy to hear that you survived the bug.

My recollection (I'm not going to search previous replies) is that you said your shop space has a 208V, 3 phase load center.

Your question was, IIRC, how do I power my machines.

I think @Firstram was saying that you can run your Webb directly from the 208V, 3 phase. Implying that the Webb data plate 220V will run just fine on 208V.

However, if you intend to power the Webb with a VFD, that's a different kettle of fish. Just match the VFD to the source power and the load.

Did you locate the breaker(s) that feed the 3P box you pictured?


----------



## Charlieman22

JimDawson said:


> Welcome back!


Thanks.  What a long strange trip.



extropic said:


> My recollection (I'm not going to search previous replies) is that you said your shop space has a 208V, 3 phase load center.


Good memory.   There is a bank of 110 outlets that runs out of the main breaker box.
The breaker box has room for at least one 3-P220 breaker (appears it had one before I had the shop - but it was removed).



extropic said:


> I think @Firstram was saying that you can run your Webb directly from the 208V, 3 phase. Implying that the Webb data plate 220V will run just fine on 208V.
> 
> However, if you intend to power the Webb with a VFD, that's a different kettle of fish. Just match the VFD to the source power and the load.


This was exactly why I typed my last note.
On re-reading @Firstram's comments - I realized he likely meant that the VFD, as currently wired, would plug in to SINGLE phase 208 and operate just fine.  This was what I was trying to confirm.


Firstram said:


> The VFD should be fine with 208


It should be noted that the next thing he said was "read the manual!".
Said manual is in a box, carefully placed there with many other manuals, carefully placed in a stack of 70 other boxes.
Will be some time before I can dig it out.
Have messaged the company to see if they will tell me if I need to do anything special to run it on 208 - *single phase*.

Conversely, I assume I could also remove the VFD completely - and rewire the machine to plug in to a 208 *3-P* outlet
This would mean I would need to add a run of 208 3-P outlets (or at least one).
I prefer the flexibility of having only 208 1-P outlets - as it would mean that I could move my machines around.
Not as crazy as it sounds - welder is a cart - and even mill is on wheels.


extropic said:


> Did you locate the breaker(s) that feed the 3P box you pictured?


3P box I pictured previously is shown below to right.
Not certain what you mean by "feed" - likely my lack of knowledge on terminology.
There are three boxes - seen below.
The breaker box is on the left - and it was pictured above - missing a 3P breaker.
If you mean the 3P breaker that was in that box before I moved in - and removed - then... yes - in fact I have located it.
It's in my neighbors shop!  Apparently they pulled it from mine and gave it to him just before I found my shop!


----------



## Charlieman22

Edit: found Digital product manual.
Says 220V single phase +/- 15%.
Think Jim found same when he audited his shop.
Meaning - looks like I'm on the right track with 208 single phase row of outlets for this and welder.


----------



## Firstram

Charlieman22 said:


> When I first read this - I assumed Firstram meant 208 3-P, and that I would need to set my VFD up accordingly...
> (Electrical not being my strength)...
> Now re-reading - believe Firstram meant *single phase* 208V?
> 
> If correct - I will be able to run a line of 208 1-P outlets to service both mill and welder.
> Seams highly doable.
> 
> Thanks.
> -CM


Yes, 208 single phase! A 220 volt motor would be perfectly happy even if you had a little voltage drop. 

All that equipment out there with 230v 1P motors is designed to run on 208 or 240. Unfortunately, when setting up in old industrial settings, the runs are so long voltage drop burns out 230v motors. When I ordered my compressor, I had it built with a 208v 1P 7.5hp motor. It is happy running along on 200v and I use a buck/boost on the rare occasions that we get a shop with 240v.


----------



## Beckerkumm

I'm confused.  208 refers to three phase, three 120v circuits.  Generally using two hot leads will still get you 240 single phase.  To get 240v three phase the third leg is 208V but the other two are still 120 to ground.   Dave


----------



## Firstram

On 3 phase, the hot legs are 120° apart instead of 180° that you see with single phase. You still get 120 from any hot to neutral but, hot to hot should be 208v unless there is a high leg. There are many variations that depend on how the transformers are tapped too. We were in a shop a while back that was was giving us something like 130/240, the tools sprang to life!

You really should measure the voltage between all 3 legs BEFORE you wire anything!


----------



## Beckerkumm

You are correct.  I had forgotten about the 120 shift effect.  I have plenty of other stuff to be confused over so all is well.  Dave


----------



## Charlieman22

Beckerkumm said:


> I have plenty of other stuff to be confused over so all is well. Dave


Chuckled.
Thanks to all that are hand holding here. 
Lest you think you are only taking on a liability - there is definitely a component of "teach a man to fish" that is occurring.
(I would be the learning fisherman in this analogy)

Jim helped me set this VFD up - and spec'd it for me.
Has worked very well.


Firstram said:


> Yes, 208 single phase! A 220 volt motor would be perfectly happy even if you had a little voltage drop.


Thanks Firstram.  
Plan to keep the wire run fairly short (20').
Excited to get it all back up and running and focus on machine upgrades.


----------



## Charlieman22

Electrician came today.
Have too many other projects on the move to tackle this myself right now - and I want to get back online.

He is quoting a 20 amp and 40 amp option.
I don't know how meaningful an upgrade cost the 40 is yet.
My tag (below, 14amps@220V) suggests that a 20 amp would be sufficient ?
I assume 208 would be a little higher amperage - so perhaps 15 or 16?
Welcome other's input on this.
Thanks,
-CM


----------



## Dabbler

Go 40 if you can afford it.  That's what I did and I never have to worry about what load is on the system, and I've used that expansion room almost completely up over the years.


----------

