# Import Tool & Cutter Grinder



## petertha (Nov 2, 2016)

Does anyone have a story or experience with the typical offshore tool & cutter grinders? Particularly the ebay /wholesaler Chinese clones of Taiwanese clones of what are probably today $6000 Deckel's or comparable vintage USA brands. I'm wondering if they just are rough around the corners but work OK with some TLC. Or if they are basically unsuitable basket cases & just not worth going down that path. Full disclosure: I am perfectly happy with my Taiwan lathe & mill. But I'm fearful of an out of balance vibrating craptrap for what these are intended for, more precision grinding of drills & endmills & such.


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## tweinke (Nov 2, 2016)

Seems no one has an opinion on these grinders. I have no clue but have wondered the same thing. Might be no one has on which means you get one and let us know how it works......


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## Sandia (Nov 2, 2016)

I have wondered as well.


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## Hawkeye (Nov 2, 2016)

Worst case - if the price is good enough, consider them a kit. Figure out anything that can be improved and work out a way to improve it. If you were going to make one from scratch, you would need to make all the parts. If one or two parts need to be remade, you are still ahead of the game.


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## wrmiller (Nov 3, 2016)

What Hawkeye said. My pistolsmith friend, who now owns a machine shop making parts for manufacturers, has one of these and he apparently uses the snot out of the thing. Yes there was some tuning/modifying involved, but so what? I'm seriously considering one now.


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## petertha (Nov 3, 2016)

Hawkeye said:


> If you were going to make one from scratch, you would need to make all the parts. If one or two parts need to be remade, you are still ahead of the game.


 That's my thinking too, hence the question. I'm not against making tools & there are some beautiful examples of ingenious T&C grinders out there. But on the reality side, a lot of machining time & materials purchased & I don't have a spare motor kicking around... all that adds up & these grinders have some funky geometry that would be a chunk of work to replicate in what are castings (particularly the swivel). then you have the feed dial & various other lead screw-like settings/dials/locks. Basically I want to use it for what its intended & get on with my projects.

OTOH, we are talking a grinder here. What scares me a bit is the horror stories where the guy spins up his HF-type bench grinder & discovers a 0.1" run-out wobble... which he traces back to not the wheel but a warped shaft & tuna can bearings. I guess that's the 'kit' purchasing gamble. I've tried to filter search on some of the obvious keywords like Taiwan or Vertex. Even U2 U3 (what I think are Vertex series) , but I think that designation is also cloned by the clones. Heck, they are even getting sneaky & incorporating words like Vertex like or Mitutoyo like so its a bit of minefield. I'll mull this over for a bit & if I make a leap, will report findings.

U2 clone
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/U2-Universal...995765?hash=item280229f435:g:LLwAAOSwBahVOFiz

Vertex
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Vertex-Grind...309771?hash=item2a54619d0b:g:ndEAAOSwMmBVpoyq

Deckel (seriiously, listing for what my car is worth)
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/LATE-MODEL-1...685307?hash=item3abe0de6fb:g:7tMAAOSwuAVWy4Sn


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## petertha (Nov 6, 2016)

Interesting. After some more searching, I'm starting to get the distinct impression of 'one manufacturer, 10 paint color re-distributer' syndrome.
Here is a Grizzly
http://www.grizzly.com/products/Tool-and-Die-Grinder/G0687?utm_campaign=zPage&utm_source=grizzly.com

Distributer in Canada (complete with garage demo movie!) 1416 $C = ~1050$U
https://www.accusizetools.com/2301-...-grinder-with-standard-accessories-110v-60hz/

Typical of a whole bunch of ebay like this +/- various shipping costs
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/U2-Universal...995765?hash=item280229f435:g:LLwAAOSwBahVOFiz

I can definitely see myself using one of these, especially for many 1-off custom tools. The diamond wheels are actually pretty reasonable cost which brings up new possibilities of dressing carbides 7 similar.


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## benmychree (Nov 9, 2016)

These grinders are intended for sharpening single cutting edge engraving cutters with V type  points and radius corners mainly and not particularly suited for end mill sharpening; my guess is that you would be disappointed with it's utility. A better investment would be an air bearing bench top endmill sharpener, like Darex.  I had one in my shop and they are very simple to operate and have a large range of travel and capacity.


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## Keith Foor (Nov 16, 2016)

OK, here are some options depending on how well you are tooled up.
And a couple things you really what to look for in a grinder or grinder setup.

First thing that is about a must is it need to have 5C collets.  
Reason is that they are more abundant and have other shapes besides round.
Something as silly as a 5/16 hunk of HSS for a cutter in a lathe can be set in a 5C collet and ALL the angles be set by the holder to do the grinding.  
You can simply set them up for each cut and cut several and then move on the the next cut.  

Now next question is do you have a surface grinder?  If so you are farther ahead to grab a couple additional items and use the surface grinder an the grinder part.  First thing to find is a bench mount air bearing end mill fixture that of course takes 5C collets.  Second is a spin index.  Now, a spin index of reasonable quality can possibly be modded to be an air bearing by drilling and tapping a hole for an air line.  Most of them have some level of longitudinal movement and with a fabricated finger act as a reasonable end mill flute sharpener.  Now if you go that route a sine plate would round out the requirements for end mills giving you the ability to grind the ends accurately.  And of course a sine plate has other uses.  

The next thing to develop is a spindle holder for supporting spindles to hold large milling cutters for use in a horizontal mill.  This may be as simple as a second matching spin index with a dead center mounted in a 5C collet.  This setup will accurately (remember we are doing this on a surface grinder) sharpen and resize reamers as well as do any and all sort of OD grinding.  Because you have 3 axis on a surface grinder you cover all the bases and if you get creative, you can build a plate that holds the spin index units that will give you X axis angle adjustment to OD grind tapers.  

Here's the thing with machining.  There are always multiple ways of accomplishing a task.  You have to think about what you have on the shelf before adding items to the shelf.  In a professional machine shop there is a tool budget to purchase any and all sort of expensive devices that may never get used.  I have been around more than a few shops that had a like new Darex sitting in the corner with dust all over it and the guys would just go grab a new end mill when the one they were using got dull.  Drill bits are no different.  I learned to sharpen drill bits by hand my freshman year of high school when they still had a shop class and vocational agriculture was MORE shop class.  Of course now it's animal science and they learn about dirt and the mating habits of livestock and little else at least at the local high school.  I hate this has happened as I learned 4 marketable trades in that class.  Those being carpentry, welding, small engine repair and basic mechanics.  But back to my point.  Home shop guys don't have a big budget for Darex E90 grinders and purpose built T&C grinders.  We have to figure out what we do have and put that to use to accomplish the task at hand.  Sometimes there are options that we don't look at because we don't realize that the mechanics of two things are pretty much identical like a spindex and an air bearing based grinding fixture for end mills.  Sure there are compromises with some of this stuff.   But at least in my mind working it all out is half the fun.


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## petertha (Nov 16, 2016)

Thanks for the input Keith. Nope. I do not have a surface grinder. That sure would be a nice shop addition. maybe one day! I have a bench grinder & lathe/toolpost grinder.

I've thought of different ways to reconfigure these existing machines into something that could profile special HSS cutters, sharpen drill bits, maybe even end mills (although that seems to be debatable as to how good or what kind of flutes etc.) It seems to me the magic is in the traversing assembly, not so much the grinding head. You need to be able to vary X, Y & Z and also facilitate a rotational component. I think that's the more expensive guts of the T&C grinders. I have seen some nice builds on this & other forums where people have ingeniously repurposed assemblies harvested from other applications like X,Y tables with fixtures. Or on the other extreme, scratch built / casting sets like a Quorn T&C. I suppose its like most things & boils down to personal decision - do you want to invest the time to make the machine and that provides satisfaction, or do you want to 'get' the machine & spend time making things from it. There is no right answer, just 'your' answer.  When I look at those Asian units (which I think are largely based on Deckel's) there are a lot of castings, components, electrical, machined parts & maybe specialty spindle/bearings that would likely be hard to replicate from bar stock scrap for the selling price. I guess I just need to ask myself how often I would use it & for what purpose. Curious you don't see many used ones for sale that aren't beat to death. maybe the message there is when people get them they tend to keep them?


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## Keith Foor (Nov 16, 2016)

Honestly people don't tend to get them to begin with.  Case in point is a Darex.  A new Darex is 2300 bucks and then you add the needed attachments.  These are in big shops with big budgets.  Home shop guys don't get them.  And a lot of big shops don't even bother with them.  They either send stuff out to be sharpened or they toss it and get new.  The other part of this is some of the high end CNC gear will sharpen their own tooling so it can keep track of it's size and stay in tolerance.  Figure if your .5 end mill gets .003 ground off it in a CNC mill you are now out .006 in places If you are trying to hold .001 your are really screwed.  So if the machine does it and then probes the freshly sharpened tool, then its knows about the .003 and adjusts for it.   So there are fewer of these things even ending up in a shop.  

As far as a beat and worn sharpener as opposed to a new import of questionable quality.  One is about as good as the other in truth.  tolerance on an air bearing is rather close for it to not have a ton of leak by.  Now typically a spindex will have about as close tolerance as a cheap import air bearing.  It will work but it 'consumes' a lot of air to work. But it can work if it's of any reasonable quality, and if you get a bit crazy and buy something like a spindex from Suburban Tool it's gonna be as tight as a good air bearing.  

As far as rebuilding a used tool or remanufacturing a cheap tool the effort is going to be the same and the same tooling is gonna be required.  Your finish bore for the air bearing will need ground at a tolerance of .00X and the inner tube will also need to be ground at .00X for it to be round and square enough to be as good as a Darex or other similar unit.  the Quorn takes care of some of that in their manufacturing process and you will not need to be able to get that precise to assemble the casting kit.   But you will need to bore it and hold reasonable tolerance to get it together and operating correctly.  


I actually lucked into mine.  I went and bought an ENCO import T&C grinder from a guy that had a Rochele (or something like that) end mill grinding fixture with an air bearing.  He had a sharpening shop complete with optical comparators and high end ID and OD grinders and he gave me a hell of a deal on both of them... But these deals don't happen often and I actually paid less than half of what the fixture was really worth for it and the T&C grinder.  

Now I will also mention about a Darex or other high dollar unit.  You can buy HSS end mills at machinery auctions for less than a penny on the dollar.  Buckets of the things sell for $50 or less.  One of the things that we need to do as home shop hobby machinists is figure out a good way to finance the purchase of machines, tooling and materials to feed our hobby.  My personal way is building RPC's but I could easily go get a couple buckets of end mills (I ahve a couple now hence the reason I bought the T&C grinder and fixture.   You can sharpen them up and assemble sets and sell them on eBay to fund your purchases of tooling and such.  Keep an eye on bidspotter.com for machinery auctions with pallets of used tooling.  They are out there all the time and it's a quick way to generate funding.


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## McRuff (Nov 21, 2016)

I'll post this information for this types of cutter grinder. I have not used one of the chinese clones, but I have used Deckel's, Scripta's, Alexander's and Gorton's for more than 30 years. True you cannot sharpen the sides of a normal end mill but you can sharpen the ends of them, you can also put radii on the corners for making bullnose end mills.
You can make carbide spade drills of any size that will fit in the collet, you can make single lipped cutters with any form that you can imagine, trapezoidal, bullnose, ballnose and angles of any variety you want. You can make single side or 3 sided engraving tools. You can use them to custom size or to make a reamer.
They are extremely useful and anyone who tells you are they are not knows nothing about using them. In shops that do engraving or mold work they are indispensable.
I just stumbled onto a Scripta model about 3 weeks ago and bought it for $550, I have been wanting one of these for years but as said they are hard to find an tons of them have been scrapped because people were told they were useless.


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## rick9345 (Nov 26, 2016)

I use mine.
As in any machining it is the set up with what's available in ones shop.
Imagination can produce the set up.


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## petertha (Dec 12, 2016)

Stefan Gotteswinter posted a really great Youtube video, search *Single-lip cutter grinder - Details and uses*
also link to his mods & upgrades http://gtwr.de/shop/pro_singlelipcuttergrinder/index.html


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## GLCarlson (Dec 27, 2016)

For about the same $1k price, you can probably find a Rockwell Delta Toolmaker and accessories (aux table, centers, univise). Might need some restoration, might get lucky and not, might take some time to find one. A Toolmaker is just that: it'll grind anything. Literally. And it's a 6x12 surface grinder as well. Check e-Bay, but prices for machine tools there are usually stupid high. There's a Yahoo group that sometimes has leads to used machines. It's all heavy old iron, indestructible and totally restorable, designed to be maintained and used in a small shop.

The Chinese stuff is a knock-off of the Quorn, for all practical purposes. Martin Model has castings, but it's months and months of effort plus cost of materials (say around $4-500).


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## ddickey (Dec 27, 2016)

Pony up and take a road trip.
http://cedarrapids.craigslist.org/tls/5880077285.html


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## Uglydog (Dec 29, 2016)

I picked up a Pratt Whitney R8 Tool Cutter Grinder a couple weeks ago.
I've been using a Pratt Whitney R6 if anyone has interest. 120v & 1 phase. PW collets included.
The R6 is the same as the R8 with less travel.
The Cincy Monoset copied the PW design (depends on whose history book you read).  
I haven't yet listed the R6 here or elsewhere as I wanted to get the R8 running first. 
Note: with some money down and if you pay for fuel. Delivery might be an option. Palatalizing certainly is an option. 

Daryl
MN


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## Reticle (Feb 3, 2017)

I just picked up one of these import grinders and am in the process of tearing it down for a big clean up. I'll post after I get it back together & running. There is a great blog from a guy who bought one new and immediately tore it down and rebuilt it. I can't post links yet, but it's on the SCHSM website.


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## Uglydog (Feb 3, 2017)

Like many items I've ended up with two Pratt Whitney Tool Cutter Grinders.
I'll be keeping the larger R8. However, I've got the little sister she is an R6 with OEM collets similar to the one in the attached pic. Good condition! Price is negotiable and fair.
Eventually, I'll get around to actually taking pics and posting it here. Likely not for a few months as I'll have more time to try to sell accumulating stuff come spring. Meanwhile she is kept warm and dry. If interested let me know. Delivery might be available this summer as she'd very easily fit in the bed of the pick up as the wife and I begin our summer camping travels. Or you could come here and spin the cranks.

Daryl
MN

Note: This pic is a copy/paste of one currently on ebay. This is not the machine in my garage....


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## petertha (Feb 4, 2017)

Reticle said:


> I just picked up one of these import grinders and am in the process of tearing it down for a big clean up. I'll post after I get it back together & running. There is a great blog from a guy who bought one new and immediately tore it down and rebuilt it. I can't post links yet, but it's on the SCHSM website.



Really looking forward to your inspect/rebuild findings & yes any other related links of interest. In the Stefan video I posted link, I thought he mentioned an actual improvement on import over the Deckel on the rotating bearing/bushing assembly? but I wasn't too clear on that detail. He made some other tweaks just to give you heads up.


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## petertha (Feb 4, 2017)

Uglydog said:


> pic is a copy/paste of one currently on ebay.


That's a healthy piece of iron! Here I was wondering what table I was going to strap a little import T&CG model to, ha-ha


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## Silverbullet (Feb 4, 2017)

I've never seen anything made by Pratt & Whitney that wasn't top shelf and made to be able to be rebuilt to new condition . Most don't even realize the quality of there machinery. There machinery builders , not copiers if you need proof it's all over the net and YouTube . If I ever had the chance to pickup anything built by them I'd jump on it. My only drawback is I've been disabled for forty years almost . I've always kept my shop with what I've had in it. But if ever one was offered I could trade or barter I'd get it . There'd be no copy or knock off . If you take your time to look you can find what you really want you may have to pay what the new copy cost but it's up to you. 
Seems American Made only worked fifty years ago. Buy cheap then throw away. I admit I'm a culprit of the age too. Harbor freight has gotten my business for years why my income . Some things I use grinder cut off wheels , at the prices they hold up well. 
I wouldn't doubt that before long they will be selling more machinery . As long as we keep having to paying thru the nose for insurances doctors hospitals and all the hogs on the gravy train we will buy China copies. But I'd still buy the used machine over New.  Just my thoughts , I'd jump on Darryls machine if I could.


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## C-Bag (Apr 5, 2017)

Short reply, it works and does the ends nice. I have the attachment to do the flutes and haven't needed to do them yet. It's not perfect, it could use more length to get larger mills chucked up bu I've managed to find a simple workaround for everything so far and have saved all my bits and they work great. I got the one with R8 as that's what I have for my mill and so I can chuck up any size end mill router bit or drill bit which the metric won't. I've been able to sharpen my carbide router bits too. It came with a stone and a diamond wheel.

But I had to go through a LOT of mucking about with the eBay seller to get thing ironed out. And because of the language barrier and time lag it took months to get it squared away. But of course after I got it some American made units started showing up but never for what I've got into it and all needed work. I needed a small machine and it fits the bill.


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## petertha (Apr 5, 2017)

Thanks for input. You brought up another good point. I have a line on a Taiwan T&CG through Canadian distributer that uses ?forgot the style? slimmer collets typically found on these units & original Deckel's & such. The grinder is more expensive, possibly offset by quality, not sure on that yet.

But I have a full set of R8 collets for my mill & thought it would sure be nice to use those vs. purchasing yet another system dedicated to this & essentially does the same thing. There are units as you've indicated that use R8 but they seem to be rarer & typically confined to Chinese origin, not Taiwan? I'm guessing that is an integral part of the spindle collet holder just like a mill so you have to choose that up front & live with it.

Can you highlight some of the issues or shortcomings you experienced?


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## C-Bag (Apr 5, 2017)

I wasn't sure how much info you wanted as this turned into a very involved process. 

I was told it would chuck up .750", when it got here it was the Deckel collets and I think they only go to 14mm. No Bueno. The other thing is this thing is HEAVY, almost 120lbs. The box with styrofoam was totally inadequate for cross country to the Left Coast from Canada. The foam in the bottom was beat to dust. There was some minor damage amazingly. When I pointed this out to the sales person it didn't go as large as she told me, she said I could send it back and exchange for an R8, as they have two show rooms here in CA, in LA , SF. But it would take 3 weeks  There was no way I was going to ship it again when I showed her the damage that had already been done to the box because it would end up damaged. 

So I asked if the R8 head fits on the Deckel style slides and she said no problem, just send $60 for shipping. 3-4weeks later it shows up and nothing lines up. No Bueno. So she said there was a R8 machine at their LA show room and I could drive down and swap it. No offer of paying my gas, it would be another $100 because the other machine was more expensive. By now I've been doing this for 2mo. LA traffic was stupider than usual, turned out graduation was going on 
Got the machine home and it wasn't finished as nice as the other machine, but everything was there and worked. Then because they had told me they could make me " such a deal" on the attachment for the flutes for $60 I went for it. That took another 4wks+ and the sent me the attachment for doing drill bits instead!! So they of course we're sorry and said keep it they would send the flute attachment. That took another month but this time was right. It's pretty crude but my R8's fit. I can't say they didn't try, but if I'd been hurting for the machine it would have been very frustrating.


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## coffmajt (Apr 5, 2017)

petertha said:


> Thanks for the input Keith. Nope. I do not have a surface grinder. That sure would be a nice shop addition. maybe one day! I have a bench grinder & lathe/toolpost grinder.
> 
> I've thought of different ways to reconfigure these existing machines into something that could profile special HSS cutters, sharpen drill bits, maybe even end mills (although that seems to be debatable as to how good or what kind of flutes etc.) It seems to me the magic is in the traversing assembly, not so much the grinding head. You need to be able to vary X, Y & Z and also facilitate a rotational component. I think that's the more expensive guts of the T&C grinders. I have seen some nice builds on this & other forums where people have ingeniously repurposed assemblies harvested from other applications like X,Y tables with fixtures. Or on the other extreme, scratch built / casting sets like a Quorn T&C. I suppose its like most things & boils down to personal decision - do you want to invest the time to make the machine and that provides satisfaction, or do you want to 'get' the machine & spend time making things from it. There is no right answer, just 'your' answer.  When I look at those Asian units (which I think are largely based on Deckel's) there are a lot of castings, components, electrical, machined parts & maybe specialty spindle/bearings that would likely be hard to replicate from bar stock scrap for the selling price. I guess I just need to ask myself how often I would use it & for what purpose. Curious you don't see many used ones for sale that aren't beat to death. maybe the message there is when people get them they tend to keep them?



Look up ATCO tool and cutter grinder on the internet, and you can find plans to build your own unit designed around a bench grinder. I bought the plans for about $36 US and spent about 3 months and about $600 for materials to build mine from the plans.  The only thing I have modified from the original drawings is converting the end mill spindle fixture to an air bearing design, plus a different tooth support for end mill flute  sharpening.  I do all my drill bits, end mills, and carbide lathe tooling on the unit and have been very happy == Check it out -- Jack


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## C-Bag (May 11, 2017)

Petertha, having any luck/fun yet? Just curious. I'm starting to see the same machine being sold on CL in LA & SF for more than I paid for mine. Definitely the R8 machine is more expensive and harder to find


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## petertha (May 11, 2017)

Perfect timing. Availability through this particular vendor comes in mini batches, so I was on back order until recently. I just got delivery yesterday but had to source a dolly to wheel it. I'll open the shipping box here shortly & report findings.


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## C-Bag (May 11, 2017)

That's hilarious, my spidy sense was tingling I guess! Hope everything goes smooth.


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## Reeltor (May 11, 2017)

Uglydog said:


> Like many items I've ended up with two Pratt Whitney Tool Cutter Grinders.
> I'll be keeping the larger R8. However, I've got the little sister she is an R6 with OEM collets similar to the one in the attached pic. Good condition! Price is negotiable and fair.
> Eventually, I'll get around to actually taking pics and posting it here. Likely not for a few months as I'll have more time to try to sell accumulating stuff come spring. Meanwhile she is kept warm and dry. If interested let me know. Delivery might be available this summer as she'd very easily fit in the bed of the pick up as the wife and I begin our summer camping travels. Or you could come here and spin the cranks.
> 
> ...



Daryl,

 I assume that anything you have would be top notch and even better than the eBay offering.  Beautiful example of American Iron.  That thing looks huge 

Mike


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## C-Bag (Jun 11, 2017)

Petertha are we having fun yet? I keep finding new and wonderful uses for mine that was not what I think it was designed for. One such was I put lock handles on the cutter head on my Atlas shaper and needed to cut the ends to a dog shoulder. So put them in the tool grinder and cut them perfectly without having to grind them on the lathe. It isn't like I use it everyday but it has definitely been useful and solved problems I'd not been able to fix without it. Like has already been mentioned, creativity and flexible thinking is a must.


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## mcostello (Jun 11, 2017)

Buy the tools first, the ideas will follow. (Typing this quietly while the Wife is taking a nap.)


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## petertha (Jun 11, 2017)

Thanks for checking in. Aside from unpacking the T&C grinder & confirming the motor spins under power, I'm still officially in shop upheaval mode right now with my lathe apart waiting on parts from Taiwan.

There is a bit of mass to this grinder so my original thought of pulling it from a storage position to bench top is was hopelessly optimistic. I had to dolly it from the car into the shop. So I decided its probably time to build a larger sized workbench to support my bench grinder + T&C grinder & bench vice + heavy under-storage... versus my present mishmash of small tables, none of which is the proper height or area. The least expensive utility grade cabinet bases I could find gave me $$ shock, so I'm noodling some designs made from typical framing materials, plywood & low tech woodworking tools (jigsaw, glue, screws etc.). My other sickness is RC flying, so been doing that now that our short season has arrived.

Anyway, from what little exposure, the T&C looks to be a nice machine. I got the R8 spindle version. Everything slides & moves nicely. Motor seems quite free of vibration. The locking handles are typical import, but seem to grip & be functional. The wheels & accessories look to be pretty decent but the proof will be using it. I'm particularly interested to re-dress & alter drills so that will be my first focus. That particular accessory looks a bit iffy, which I've read about. Once all my peripheral shop grunt work is done, I'll do a proper review & take lots of pics. Feel free to throw some of your projects out there to keep me focused ! haha


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## petertha (Jun 11, 2017)

Just while we are chatting on this, I kind of visualized the T&C positioned on front right corner for best accessibility & orientation. Any thoughts on this?


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## C-Bag (Jun 12, 2017)

I guess we all have our own focus, mine is because most of these tools have such short warrantee is to use them as quick as possible. And because I'm in a very limited space almost all my machine tools except my 9x20 lathe are on castors so I can reconfigure the shop for the process at hand. Most everything is set up as work stations. So the TG is on a small cart that I can roll out when needed and is stored with its tooling in a small space against the wall. I don't do big stationary benches either as they just seem to get overwhelmed by HSS(horizontal surface squatters). So I have two Harbor Freight carts(one a hydraulic lift cart propped up at the top of the lift with a welding top) for my benches. If I need more area I use folding saw horses. My main work station is an old three drawer rollaway with a 8" bench grinder for grinding lathe and shaper tools, a bench drill press, 6" bench grinder with wire wheel and MultiTool with 4 1/2" angle grinder and vices.


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## kvt (Jun 12, 2017)

Did you take the cab out of my garage while I was at work today.   It looks exactly like mine  but mine has the top box in place of the grinders etc.  I need to get another to do what you have done.


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## C-Bag (Jun 12, 2017)

Lol, nope. That was given to me in 80's because nobody wanted it. Put some new garage sale castors under it and started loading it up. Now I'm as safety conscious more than most and I'm careful that it is top heavy. But it's where I keep my odds and ends bolts etc, some tooling etc. Not bad for a throw away  I also took a pic of the TG cart and I can hear the safety howls now, but when not in seldom use its stored in a little cubbyhole amongst the other machine tools in the back corner of the shop. I generally pull whatever machine into the doorway of the garage for the light and air.


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## Downunder Bob (Sep 6, 2017)

petertha said:


> That's my thinking too, hence the question. I'm not against making tools & there are some beautiful examples of ingenious T&C grinders out there. But on the reality side, a lot of machining time & materials purchased & I don't have a spare motor kicking around... all that adds up & these grinders have some funky geometry that would be a chunk of work to replicate in what are castings (particularly the swivel). then you have the feed dial & various other lead screw-like settings/dials/locks. Basically I want to use it for what its intended & get on with my projects.
> 
> OTOH, we are talking a grinder here. What scares me a bit is the horror stories where the guy spins up his HF-type bench grinder & discovers a 0.1" run-out wobble... which he traces back to not the wheel but a warped shaft & tuna can bearings. I guess that's the 'kit' purchasing gamble. I've tried to filter search on some of the obvious keywords like Taiwan or Vertex. Even U2 U3 (what I think are Vertex series) , but I think that designation is also cloned by the clones. Heck, they are even getting sneaky & incorporating words like Vertex like or Mitutoyo like so its a bit of minefield. I'll mull this over for a bit & if I make a leap, will report findings.
> 
> ...



If it's made in Taiwan I think you can be comfortable that it will be safe and work quite well, Certainly good enough for hobby machinist, I have a Taiwan lathe and it's as good as any I have ever used. Obviously with a grinder be sensible first time you start it up. check the wheel hasn't been damaged in transit, and stand clear when starting, other than that. I'd be glad to have one, maybe I will when the need arises.


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## StevSmar (Aug 1, 2019)

petertha said:


> ...I just got delivery yesterday but had to source a dolly to wheel it. I'll open the shipping box here shortly & report findings.


How did you make out with it?

Do you know if yours is made in Taiwan or China?


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## petertha (Aug 18, 2019)

Sorry for delayed reply. It is made in China, not Taiwan. I'd have to check my notes but I didn't think the Taiwan models offered 5C collet spindles, at least the distributors I was exposed to which was kind of a big factor for me. And they were like 2X the cost.

Rather lame excuse but I have different summer hobbies & because the season is so short, my metalworking typically kicks in when the weather gets crappy.... which averages about 8/12 of the year around here LOL. This past winter I was focused on some other shop priorities, so aside from turning it on & playing around a bit, I haven't put it to good use yet. But I am feeling the machining itch a bit early. Maybe my bio-clock is telling me fall is around the corner.


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## C-Bag (Aug 19, 2019)

Mine has R8 spindle and I found a outfit that carries square ID R8, so I can use that to grind precision HSS lathe and shaper bits. Very handy. Also made a radius head for the TS for doing radii on my scraper ala Stefan Gottswinter. It is really turning into a lot handier tool than I thought.


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## petertha (Aug 19, 2019)

That sounds cool, C-bag. Would like to see some pics of your setup & resultant projects one day.


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## stioc (Aug 19, 2019)

I've been considering this one, says it's about 105lbs, $400 free shipping but the collets look like the Deckle ones? I'd rather have 5c or R8 as I already own those.









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But then I keep thinking I should just build the Harold Hall's grinding rest and use a bench grinder with it, it should cover resharpening all commonly used cutters in the home shop. Although a D bit grinder like the above you could make single tooth form tools with ease.


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## matthewsx (Aug 19, 2019)

stioc said:


> I've been considering this one, says it's about 105lbs, $400 free shipping but the collets look like the Deckle ones? I'd rather have 5c or R8 as I already own those.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Tools that you build yourself not only bring the satisfaction of building something but justification for buying other tools to build them with

Cheers,

John


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## stioc (Aug 19, 2019)

matthewsx said:


> Tools that you build yourself not only bring the satisfaction of building something but justification for buying other tools to build them with
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> John



Very true! Except when the list of projects is a mile long I end up waiting and waiting and waiting and then eventually buy one anyway. Then I realize if I bought one sooner I'd have gotten more use out of it - because life is finite lol


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## pontiac428 (Aug 19, 2019)

Would I trade my chinese Deckel for a Harold Hall grinder?  No.  The single-lip grinder is versatile.  I mainly do lathe bits (lots and lots and lots of lathe bits) to include cemented carbide on mine.  I also do lots of drill bits.  And end mill faces and flutes.  And I make D-bits.  And regrind pin punches.  And sharpen scratch awls.  It's a versatile tool made even better with the right fixtures.

Edit:  Mine's the (older) 5C version from Shars.  Came with the drill attachment, the lathe bit attachment, the flute attachment, and the regular work head.


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## stioc (Aug 19, 2019)

@pontiac428 have you read Harold's grinding book? I'm asking because I'd like to know if Harold's tool rest has any advantages over a universal cutter/grinder? for example can a universal tool grinder grind/sharpen things like dove tail cutters and slitting saws too?


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## pontiac428 (Aug 19, 2019)

I have a paper copy and a digital copy of the tool grinding book(s) by Harold Hall.  The Hall grinding rest does not offer the adjustability that you get out of a single lip grinder with a lathe bit head, let alone what you get out of an indexing work head.  The single lip gives you micro infeed on the grinder wheel's axis, allows 180 degrees of swing, precision lateral tilt, and precision forward tilt/rise.  With the lathe tool work head, it also gives tool axis infeed and lateral traverse.  I did the Stefan Goetteswinter trick by installing a brass point on the swing axis, letting me dial in tool tip radii.

It's not quite as versatile as a proper T&C grinder, but it's 1/5th the price.  Watch some youtube videos on the "deckel clone" to get a better idea of how they can be used.  I have an 8-point dovetail cutter that's about 3/4" across the face, and I wouldn't hesitate to sharpen it in the deckel clone.  Small stuff gets a little tricky, but big tools (> 1/4") are easy.  4-flute end mills smaller than 3/8 are hard (easier with CBN wheels), but 2-flute mills have no lower diameter limit.


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## StevSmar (Aug 20, 2019)

petertha said:


> Sorry for delayed reply..... Rather lame excuse but I have different summer hobbies & because the season is so short, my metalworking typically kicks in when the weather gets crappy....


No apologies necessary. We have a similar seasonal rhythm of life in Winnipeg- summer and workshop season...


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## C-Bag (Aug 22, 2019)

stioc said:


> I've been considering this one, says it's about 105lbs, $400 free shipping but the collets look like the Deckle ones? I'd rather have 5c or R8 as I already own those.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is the trick, there are several mod's to these. The one in the pic comes with the Deckel style collets, and you don't just pick them up anywhere. pontiac428 got the mod with the 5c head, I got the one with R8 head. The Deckel collets don't even go up to 1/2", and I don't know about you but the first endmill I wanted to sharpen was my 3/4". At the time I was just focused on r8 because I have a full set. But if I'd known Shars had a 5c for $900-/+ I would have gone that route. They also sell the grinder wheel hubs so like Robin Rinzetti has once you get a wheel trued if you want to change you pull the wheel/hub and put another wheel/hub on. Turns out my clone doesn't use that hub  truly the devil is in the details and for me the the clone collets are worthless.


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## bakrch (Aug 22, 2019)

I almost grabbed the Shars model on their Black Friday sale (I think it was then). They contacted me with a shipping quote, and it was something like $300 ... canceled the order.  I may have to swallow my pride and grab one because I still want it.


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## kb58 (Aug 22, 2019)

Strange that the Chinese tool grinder is 220V. It must be an issue of availability at their end, because no way does a motor that small require 220V in order to reduce current draw. Regardless, thanks for posting it. After finally acquiring a proper mill and lathe, I've been looking around for an affordable tool grinder.


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## C-Bag (Aug 22, 2019)

On the Shars site they state that the majority of clones they sell is to the EU, and it's 220v. Like I said,the devil is in the details, mine is 110v, and R8 head. Most of what you see on eBay for cheaper is 220v and Deckel head. Not useable IMHO.


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## stioc (Aug 22, 2019)

C-Bag said:


> This is the trick, there are several mod's to these. The one in the pic comes with the Deckel style collets, and you don't just pick them up anywhere. pontiac428 got the mod with the 5c head, I got the one with R8 head. The Deckel collets don't even go up to 1/2", and I don't know about you but the first endmill I wanted to sharpen was my 3/4". At the time I was just focused on r8 because I have a full set. But if I'd known Shars had a 5c for $900-/+ I would have gone that route. They also sell the grinder wheel hubs so like Robin Rinzetti has once you get a wheel trued if you want to change you pull the wheel/hub and put another wheel/hub on. Turns out my clone doesn't use that hub  truly the devil is in the details and for me the the clone collets are worthless.


I agree @C-Bag  however, just a different collet head and paint shouldn't triple the price of the same Chinese unit IMHO. $900 sounds way too much but may be I'm just cheap lol



bakrch said:


> I almost grabbed the Shars model on their Black Friday sale (I think it was then). They contacted me with a shipping quote, and it was something like $300 ... canceled the order.  I may have to swallow my pride and grab one because I still want it.



Aha!! so they do go on sale? $300 would be a steal! I'm happy to pay up to $500 for a 5c collet version. I'll have to keep an eye out for their sale on these.

In the meantime I cracked open the Harold Hall book the other night and I got motivated again to make the simpler version of his grinding rest. Between my Phase 2 endmill sharpner, the drill doctor and the HH grinding rest I should be covered for resharpening almost all cutting tools that I own. I'll still be on the look out for a univ grinder for around $500 though


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## bakrch (Aug 22, 2019)

stioc said:


> I agree @C-Bag  however, just a different collet head and paint shouldn't triple the price of the same Chinese unit IMHO. $900 sounds way too much but may be I'm just cheap lol
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The sale was either 15-20% off, but the $300 I had mentioned was just for the freight charge.


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## pontiac428 (Aug 22, 2019)

I've got the 110v version with 5C collets.  Shipping is always going to run an extra 30% with Shars.  My $900 grinder was an $1100 grinder delivered.  I tore it down and went through it, and the only concern I had is that some of the tapped holes in the main casting were slightly loose.  I replaced the knobs and hand levers with Kipp parts and installed a heli-coil in the travel lock threads to satisfy my OCD.  I also had to turn down the transverse pivot shaft's clamping surface in the lathe for better engagement.  Now Shars seems to be stocking arbors steadily, so I ordered a couple more (now I have five).  I also learned how great flared cup wheels are for sharpening end mills- an acute edge really helps with small tools and with gashing.


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## C-Bag (Aug 22, 2019)

stoic my pic is in Wikipedia under "cheap tightwad". But also hate tossing bits just because they are dull. Lots of folks it doesn't bother but it bugs me no end. And when the alternative is either stock a bunch of extra's or try to find somebody to send to who would probably either refuse to sharpen them because they are cheap imports or charge me more than they are worth, I started getting serious about some kind of sharpener setup. I found a clone for $300 but the seller asked me what I wanted it for and when I explained I wanted to sharpen EM's he proceeded to demo exactly why it was a bad idea. And he was right. 

I found out the hard way the standard clone is NOT the same as either the r8 or 5c clones. You can't just pop one of those heads on the standard. Won't fit. The standard is cheap because unless you are doing d bits it's worthless for EM's unless you are doing metric EM's smaller than 12mm. so it's and old design and I would guess less demand. Look at how much they want for the original Deckels or for that matter any other sharpener and $900 and to have a co that supports the machine with parts is a deal even to me.


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## 38super (Sep 5, 2019)




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## s_vanhoveln (Oct 3, 2019)

pontiac428 said:


> Would I trade my chinese Deckel for a Harold Hall grinder?  No.  The single-lip grinder is versatile.  I mainly do lathe bits (lots and lots and lots of lathe bits) to include cemented carbide on mine.  I also do lots of drill bits.  And end mill faces and flutes.  And I make D-bits.  And regrind pin punches.  And sharpen scratch awls.  It's a versatile tool made even better with the right fixtures.
> 
> Edit:  Mine's the (older) 5C version from Shars.  Came with the drill attachment, the lathe bit attachment, the flute attachment, and the regular work head.



I have the Shars 5C version also. Do you use the drill sharpening attachment? I can't seem to get consistent results and the documentation is terrible.


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## pontiac428 (Oct 3, 2019)

I do use it, and the documentation is near non-existent.  Actually, it works very well.  There is a (poor quality) video on youtube under "U3" as the search term that makes it more clear.  The part that I had to figure out is what the ideal clocking of the drill should be.  I set it up to look like an hourglass as it enters the grinding wheel from the normal direction.  Then you need to set a stop at the end of the bit, grind one side, then roll the bit 180 degrees and grind the other side.  Once set up, it is faster than using my drill doctor and more versatile.  The fixture makes a good grind profile and you can get good grinds on small drill bits (less than 1/8 is possible) up to fairly large S&D bits.  Oh, you want to grind at a 59 degree angle with the fixture for a 118 degree included angle.  Sorry for the weak instructions, but once you see it done on youtube and grind a bit or two, the concept will lock in and you will be rolling.  Alternatively, you can grind the four facet pattern.  Definitely read the Workshop Practice series tool grinding book (#38) by Harold Hall under downloads on this site if you don't have it already.  It explains a lot in a very short space about sharpening drills, including angles, web thinning, split and chisel points, and so on.  Hall uses a bench grinder adapter (like the Craftsman) for his main example, which works on the same principle as the drill fixture we have.


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## s_vanhoveln (Oct 3, 2019)

pontiac428 said:


> I do use it, and the documentation is near non-existent.  Actually, it works very well.  There is a (poor quality) video on youtube under "U3" as the search term that makes it more clear.  The part that I had to figure out is what the ideal clocking of the drill should be.  I set it up to look like an hourglass as it enters the grinding wheel from the normal direction.  Then you need to set a stop at the end of the bit, grind one side, then roll the bit 180 degrees and grind the other side.  Once set up, it is faster than using my drill doctor and more versatile.  The fixture makes a good grind profile and you can get good grinds on small drill bits (less than 1/8 is possible) up to fairly large S&D bits.  Oh, you want to grind at a 59 degree angle with the fixture for a 118 degree included angle.  Sorry for the weak instructions, but once you see it done on youtube and grind a bit or two, the concept will lock in and you will be rolling.  Alternatively, you can grind the four facet pattern.  Definitely read the Workshop Practice series tool grinding book (#38) by Harold Hall under downloads on this site if you don't have it already.  It explains a lot in a very short space about sharpening drills, including angles, web thinning, split and chisel points, and so on.  Hall uses a bench grinder adapter (like the Craftsman) for his main example, which works on the same principle as the drill fixture we have.




Thanks for the reply. I've watched that "U3" video you mentioned, and I've been trying to make sense of his written charts and instruction. It seems that my attachment has a couple minor differences than his, and consistency is eluding me. I understand what you're saying about clocking the bit. I've read #38 a while back, but I believe I still have a fair grasp of the geometry...I just can't replicate it. My issues lie with the amount of stickout of the bit beyond the face of the tool, as well as the stickout of the tool itself. The U3 video documentation implies very little stickout of the bit, but implies tool extension that isn't possible without modification. Any clues you could provide would be very appreciated.


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## pontiac428 (Oct 4, 2019)

Harold Hall explains the effect of bit protrusion from the fixture in the #38 book.  It does not affect the quality of the grind or cutting performance, but it changes the flatness of the facet based on the arc drawn by the tip as the fixture pivots.  Longer radius, flatter arc.

If I get a chance this weekend, I'll find a dull bit and post pics.


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## s_vanhoveln (Oct 4, 2019)

pontiac428 said:


> Harold Hall explains the effect of bit protrusion from the fixture in the #38 book.  It does not affect the quality of the grind or cutting performance, but it changes the flatness of the facet based on the arc drawn by the tip as the fixture pivots.  Longer radius, flatter arc.
> 
> If I get a chance this weekend, I'll find a dull bit and post pics.



I understand that too...that is what was really annoying. I found the problem today and I've made it work. One of the setting scales on the head had slipped or wasn't set correctly and it was adding about 8 degrees to the natural relief angle built into the tool. My bits were getting a very aggressive relief angle no matter what I did. I reset that axis to zero and I've fixed my initial practice bits and given them pretty four-facet grinds. After two full days of making dust it's shocking how easy that fixture is to use once the initial machine settings are correct.

Thanks for offering so much help. If I hadn't found someone who was having success I would probably have given up and put that drill grinding fixture on eBay.


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## C-Bag (Oct 5, 2019)

pontiac428 said:


> Harold Hall explains the effect of bit protrusion from the fixture in the #38 book.  It does not affect the quality of the grind or cutting performance, but it changes the flatness of the facet based on the arc drawn by the tip as the fixture pivots.  Longer radius, flatter arc.
> 
> If I get a chance this weekend, I'll find a dull bit and post pics.


This is the one attachment I've not gotten to with mine. Like you said the instructions are lame and I've not found the U3 YouTube yet. But for whatever reason it seems it has to do with style of presentation what sinks in for me. Compound this with I picked up a Starrett drill bit gage and I had been doing my bits freehand for years. Wish I'd had one of those gages years ago as our Ozzie bro's say it works a treat.


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## stioc (Oct 6, 2019)

Perhaps this one?


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## pontiac428 (Oct 6, 2019)

This video is horrible in quality, but you can clearly see how the attachment works.  Luc Wybo's first video is good, he gets into geometry and does a good job of explaining it even though he is hard to hear.


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## C-Bag (Oct 6, 2019)

It is really tough to see around the grinders when operating much less trying to video. But both of these give a much better idea of how it works than the silly booklet that came with the grinder.


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