# What should I get first?



## snyper1982 (Nov 11, 2017)

I am looking at getting either a Lathe or a Mill. Unsure of which to get first. The machines I am looking at are:

Milling Machine:
Either the PM-25MV with DRO, or the G0759(seems to be the G0704 with DRO)

Similar prices, just not sure which one is better. What do you guys think?

For the Lathe:
The G0602Z (The G0602 with DRO)

I am a total beginner, so I am sorry if these are stupid questions. I am just stuck as to which I should get first. It seems like the mill would be more versatile than the lathe, but like I said, I am a total noob. I think I will probably end up getting the Mill first, I am leaning more towards that. BUt I really want a lathe too... Ahhh. This sucks. I wish I had the cash to just get both right now.

Either way. I would like to hear from some people with experience about which machine I should get first. Also for the mills, which one do you guys think is the better mill? The Grizzly or the Precision Matthews? Is there any online sources or books I should read to help me in getting started in this hobby? What are some good beginner projects that I should work on? I would also like to turn this into a career a some point, so any pointers to help out with that would be appreciated also. 

Also what are some of the basic necessity tools for each machine? For the lathe, I know I can get a basic lathe cutting tool set, But I can't find anything similar for the mill.  I know I am asking a lot, so any help you guys can give is greatly appreciated.


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## 34_40 (Nov 11, 2017)

Welcome aboard.  Nice to see you here.
The only stupid question is the one you don't ask! Don't ever think anyone here will "pick" on you for any question.  It's a great group to be a part of.

Now to your question about which is first.  That will totally depend on what you want to do! Sounds like a cop out but it is true.  For me, an old lathe was available at a price I could afford so that's what got me hooked - once you start down this road, you will always want more.

More machines, more tooling, more more more.. LOL..   But it really comes down to what you want to do.  You'll probably end up with both machines (I did) and they each have a place.  One of my end goals was to create a small IC engine.  So that's what I've been working towards.

What are some of the things you're thinking of doing?


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## samthedog (Nov 11, 2017)

I can't comment on the specific machines but can give you some input on what to get first. 
I recommend the lathe. It is more forgiving and you only need to worry about 2 axis. There is also a lot of tooling floating around and for most people, a lathe meets most of their machining needs. Add to this that round stock is generally plentiful for practicing which means getting proficient on the lathe is generally cheaper than on a mill.

Here is a recent thread with information:
http://hobby-machinist.com/threads/buying-a-lathe-what-tooling-should-i-get-avoid.63587/

And some more sources of info:








http://www.machinistblog.com/forum/...asic-tools-to-get-started-in-hobby-machining/
http://www.projectsinmetal.com/tool-list-for-the-beginner-amateur-machinist/
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?1323774-Which-indexable-lathe-tools-to-get


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## thomas s (Nov 11, 2017)

I don't know anything about the machines on your list. But I would go with the lathe first.


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## Eddyde (Nov 11, 2017)

Welcome to HM. Fear not to ask any question.
As said above, it does depend somewhat on the types of projects you want to do? However, the Lathe would be my general choice for a first machine. A couple of reasons: you can get started with less additional tooling than a mill. 
You can do more kinds of work that cannot be done any other way on a lathe, including some milling, with an attachment.
The lathe was the first machine I learned on and the first machine I bought, it was a couple of decades later that I finally bought a mill.
I would also recommend learning to machine first without the DRO, You will get to know the machines much better and wont be stuck if they break down. 
I don't own either of the machines you want to buy but both look like very good choices to get started with. Precision Matthews, gets lots of great reviews here and would be my choice for any new machine purchase.


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## cathead (Nov 11, 2017)

First off, welcome to the forum and also to a  great hobby. 

It won't matter much in the long run.  I started out with just a lathe and how have two lathes and two mills and a lot of accessories. 
If I had to pick one, it would probably be a lathe though.  The machining hobby becomes an evolution and quest to be able to do more
things.  The possibilities are seemingly endless only limited by one's imagination and pocketbook.


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## richl (Nov 11, 2017)

Welcome!
For me it was a bit different, I purchased a mill, I had a need for the mill, and I looked for a good used one. If you have projects to do specifically need a mill, well, it's a no brainer. But, I do admit, the lathe is a sexy machine, and you will have fun with it after it is all set up and ready to go. Its a bit cheaper to fit up the lathe than a mill. Vise, windmills, facemill, end mill holders... a basic setup for the mill is far more expensive to acquire than the lathe... yes, you can forgo some things, but that really makes the operations you perform a touch more advanced

Buy the biggest lathe you can afford, used you get a lot of bang for your buck. Might be worth it to look around before committing yourself to a small hobby machine. You are in an area of the country that should have machines available within a few hours of you.

Something else on looking around, there is a big machinery reseller, they buy and sell old equipment, tooling and such, 3 big warehouses of machinery, it's about 2-3 hours from me, every2-3 months I make the trek down and rummage around looking for something, if nothing else I go to the metal bin and pick up some fixtures, plates metal for near scrap metal prices. Look for places that buy out all the equipment from old shops and resale, you can usually pick up some good deals. If nothing else, if you really enjoy looking at greasy old machines, it's better than going to a museum!

Good luck, happy hunting!


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## Downunder Bob (Nov 11, 2017)

snyper1982 said:


> I am looking at getting either a Lathe or a Mill. Unsure of which to get first. The machines I am looking at are:
> 
> Milling Machine:
> Either the PM-25MV with DRO, or the G0759(seems to be the G0704 with DRO)
> ...



I'm not familiar with those machines, as the brands are not readily available here in downunder, Although they do appear to be similar to some brands that we do have. Quite often the brand name is dealer specific, and an identical machine will be available from another dealer just with a different name. I would also suggest you pay the extra 20% and get a Taiwanese made machine over chinese. They are at least 50% better quality.

However back to your question. I would go for the lathe first. And I would suggest that you get the best you can afford, I also often suggest getting the largest you have room for, without being rediculous of course. Many people start out with a small lathe, only to quickly outgrow it. 

With a lathe you can make almost anything, yes some things would be easier on a mill but you can still do them on a lathe. I would dearly love a mill, but simply don't have room for one, and no where to expand. As I am finding out many milling operations can be done on a lathe. 

Happy hunting and good luck.

Bob.


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## David S (Nov 11, 2017)

It really does depend on what types of things you would like to make right away.  In general I would start with a lathe if turning is what you will most encounter.  There can be some capability to do some milling with the lathe, but it is limited.

The other thing to consider could be the ability to interchange tooling between the lathe and mill.  Compatibility of tapers etc for tooling.

David


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## Uglydog (Nov 11, 2017)

snyper1982,
With the new IT format it is difficult to now your general location.
There are occasionally threads here at HM where someone is looking for a Mentor. Consider posting your location. There may be someone just down the street or at least a reasonable driving distance who wouldn't mind spending a day with you doing some hands on.

Daryl
MN


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## Nick Hacking (Nov 11, 2017)

As a newbie too, my advice is probably not all that valuable. I started with a lathe: it's a very popular old hobby lathe here in Britain and it didn't take me long to find second-hand milling attachments.

The thing with mills seems to be that the more rigid the spindle and table the better and a milling attachment in a hobby lathe is not all that rigid, so it's a viable solution if you are on a budget and are planning on light milling for small parts. But, now that I've got myself a serious mill, I think that I'd have been better off not spending the money on the lathe attachments and putting it towards the mill.

As others have said, the hobby tends to suck you in and once you have one machine you soon find that you "need" other machines to support it and get the best use from it... grinding wheels, saws of different types, welding kit, plasma torch, measuring equipment, collets... my poor postman must have lugged several cwt of tools up my drive over the past couple of years!

In short: I don't think it matters where or how you start; simply understand that the first purchase is the beginning of the wallet-drain, not the end.

Good luck,

Nick


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## richl (Nov 11, 2017)

Uglydog said:


> snyper1982,
> With the new IT format it is difficult to now your general location.
> There are occasionally threads here at HM where someone is looking for a Mentor. Consider posting your location. There may be someone just down the street or at least a reasonable driving distance who wouldn't mind spending a day with you doing some hands on.
> 
> ...



That is something I miss about the other forum software, 1 click and you knew the approximate location and types of machines a user has. Now you have to burrow down 2 layers and than the info may not be there... oh well.


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## dlane (Nov 11, 2017)

richl said:


> That is something I miss about the other forum software, 1 click and you knew the approximate location and types of machines a user has. Now you have to burrow down 2 layers and than the info may not be there... oh well.


Me too,

Ied go with a lathe first.


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## Glenn Brooks (Nov 11, 2017)

I would go with a lathe also.  Actually I bought a mill first - never used it much until after I bought a lathe. 

Something to consider - check around your area and see if some community college offers a night machining class.  I took a one semester basic lathe class early on,  at one of our local CC's and enjoyed it immensely.  Two nights a week. I learned a tremendous amount and picked up good technique. Got me started in machining quickly, and I was much better informed about buying equipment afterward, as I had a bit of experience to help make decisions. 

Grizzly and PM both make decent machines.  My guess is you will wish you had bought bigger machines after working with the ones you mentioned. Although,  depends  on what you want to make.  

Glenn


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## Terrywerm (Nov 11, 2017)

First, welcome to H-M!!

I believe you might like the lathe better for your first machine. Learning the basics of machining on it will teach you so much about how metal is worked and how it cuts. There are many basic projects that you can make using only a lathe, and as others have pointed out, you can get tooled up for less initial investment. DROs are nice, but you will want to also learn how to work without it in case the need ever arises.

A book that I can highly recommend, even though it was written long ago, is Machine Shop Practice by K. H. Moltrecht. There are two volumes in the set and they can be purchased from MSC and other vendors I am sure.


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## BGHansen (Nov 11, 2017)

Welcome to the Hobby Machinist forum!  Like mentioned above, no bad questions here.

I'd go with the lathe first, like probably about everyone above mentioned.  Once you get the bug, look for the mill.  Expect to spend about as much on accessories as you did for the original machine.  If you buy used American iron in good shape, you will not lose your money.  Machine tools depreciate to a certain level and stay there unless they're worn out or broken.  A lot of old American iron was designed for production work, way beyond the use of most of us on this forum.  If you decide to sell for upgrading or whatever in the future, you'll get your money back.

Bruce


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## snyper1982 (Nov 11, 2017)

34_40 said:


> Welcome aboard.  Nice to see you here.
> The only stupid question is the one you don't ask! Don't ever think anyone here will "pick" on you for any question.  It's a great group to be a part of.
> 
> Now to your question about which is first.  That will totally depend on what you want to do! Sounds like a cop out but it is true.  For me, an old lathe was available at a price I could afford so that's what got me hooked - once you start down this road, you will always want more.
> ...



Therein lies the problem. There are just so many things I want to do. I would like to build model steam engines, mini IC engines. Fireworks tooling. Tools for woodworking. I undoubtedly will be getting both machines,  I am just unsure of how to proceed in the beginning. It seems like the mill can replicate some of the lathe operations to a very limited degree. For instance, I could turn an OD with a boring head, and bore and ID as well. I'm just not sure the lathe can really replicate the Mill.

What about a dual machine like the G0156 or the G9729?

Also. What type of tooling should I be looking at for each machine? I'm thinking just basic beginner tooling. For the lathe,  I'd need a cut off tool, a center drill, boring bar, a cutting tool set, knurling tool,  etc. Anything else I will need? Id also like to cut threads, not sure if I will need any special tooling for that.

The milling machine is where I really get lost. I will want a boring head, and boring bar. I will definitely want a milling vice. Taps, end mill assortment (unsure, do I need more than one?), face mills (again, do I need an assortment of these?), Fly cutter (is this the same as a face mill?), dovetail cutters, clamping kit, etc. I am quite sure I am missing a ton of stuff. 

As for the mill, which machine do you think is better? The grizzly or PM?


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## 34_40 (Nov 11, 2017)

There are many of us here that are toolaholics..  Yes. My name is Mike and I am a ...  well, you got the idea.

We all want to be able to work with our machines, and that takes tooling. But you don't have to get all of it today!  

I really don't like a combo machine, it's always a compromise. But having said that I have seen a couple projects done that just amaze me to know they were crafted on a combo unit!   The others here have given great advice.  Especially doing a couple classes locally, you would learn some technique and be able to network with others with the same desire and maybe get a lead on a machine.  Having the contacts will always be a good thing.


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## Eddyde (Nov 11, 2017)

IMHO, from the projects you described a Lathe is definitely the way to start. While neither machine can fully replace the other, the lathe can mill better than a mill can do lathe work but the work envelope is smaller. If you were going to "turn" on a mill you should consider a rotary table, which would work much better for outside radiuses than trying to use a boring head. Also, a mill cannot thread, except for tapping holes.  If I could have only have one of the two it would be a lathe, hands down. 
I am not a fan of the combo machines either, but if you really want to jump in with both machines it may be an economical compromise. If you were going to go that route, look into getting a used Smithy Granite, much better machine than the Grizzly offerings, they occaisonally come up on Craigslist usually with a lot of tooling for much less than the cost of new.
Also you mentioned fireworks tooling, if you want to make solid fuel engine molds, you will need a lathe with a taper attachment.


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## brino (Nov 11, 2017)

snyper1982 said:


> Therein lies the problem. There are just so many things I want to do.



yep....you will fit right in here!


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## tweinke (Nov 11, 2017)

I would figure out a general size of the things you are or may be interested in making, figure your budget remembering you will need at least basic tooling and measuring devices. Find machines that meet or exceed what you need for size. Browse every reputable tool venders machines and tools. Verify what the budget actually is. Ask questions here about various machines ( this is where we will help you blow the budget to pieces) Then make your best decision on which machine or machines to buy. I started with a 3in1 machine and still have it, It will make things but is a compromise in a lot of ways. If it were me in your shoes separate machines will be more conducive to learning and easier to operate in the long run. As for brand PM has a very nice 10x22 or 10x30 lathe and the PM25 would not need much in the way of upgrades vs the G704 (my two cents). But make sure you start with machines that fit the size work you would like to do even if you have to wait for the second machine.


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## Chipper5783 (Nov 11, 2017)

It seems like you have an opinion poll going here.  As others have said it there is a specific requirement, then buy the machine that will perform that task.

*For general machining stuff - to start with, get a lathe*.  As has been pointed out numerous times above (and in many previous threads), get the biggest and best lathe you can manage (with in reason).  If there is anyway you can "swing it" - blow your entire budget on that lathe (plus any fun money you have on hand).  Get the core items that really only come with the machine when you purchase it (such as the TTA and steadies).  You should get one 4J chuck, a drill chuck for the tailstock and one toolholder (plus what ever else you can get thrown in) - but don't sweat all that other stuff that you can get later one piece at a time (more chucks, carriage and tailstock tooling, DRO etc. - there is no end to the stuff you can add on).

The only way to add capacity is to purchase another lathe (which of course is a good idea - I have two and I'm looking for another one, I don't do any very large jobs, but I have been right on the edge of the 15" swing & 21" in the gap quite a few times).  I have a very cute 11x24 lathe - the only time it get used is with the bigger one has a job set up or for threading to a shoulder as it will go down to 30 rpm and allows shift on the fly.  I got the small lathe because it was just so cool, but the larger machine is more versatile.  I'm like you, my machining is a bit of this and a bit of that, not big stuff, not small stuff.  I'm a hobby guy, and for the first 25 years, all I had was that 15" - I've gone nuts over the past few years, but that's what happens if you stay in this game.

That G0602 is a 10x22 lathe.  It depends on your requirements - but that will get eaten up real fast.  Also, it only has a 1" bore, common threading and feed rod,  and a threaded spindle.  The lowest speed is 150 rpm (I think is way too fast - try cutting a 1/2" - 13 tpi thread and you'll grow gray hair pretty quick).  Even going up to a 12" lathe opens up a lot more options.

Caveat: if some one offers you a good working mill for $5, then take it!

Let us know what you decide on.  David


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## tq60 (Nov 11, 2017)

You can mill in a lathe but difficult to lathe or turn with a mill.

Good mill used are scarce as hens teeth so set a budget and start saving while looking.

Lathes show up everywhere for all price points so look at Craigslist in a 200 mile radius and read every add and touch as many as you can as it is like shopping for a used car.

You will learn the local market price and what to expect.

Older south bend or Logan can be picked up for a song if ugly and dirty and make great entry point tools.

We have went through maybe 8 or 12 to get our current 2 that we use and 2 we do not.

While looking keep eye out for a mill but they usually go fast if priced right.


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## ttabbal (Nov 11, 2017)

I just ordered a PM 1127VF-LB. I was initially considering a 10x30, but after the advice here, decided that there were enough upgrades other than work envelope that it was worth it. 

I'm sure I'll end up doing light milling on it, but I'm convinced getting the lathe first is the right way to go.


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## Aukai (Nov 12, 2017)

Welcome to the chicken or the egg decision. I needed a good drill press, so got a G0755 Grizzly instead, then I learned about Precision Machine (Matt),  and when it was time I liked the service, and good feed back, so I got a 1228VF-LB. Good group here, your in good hands.


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## Downunder Bob (Nov 12, 2017)

snyper1982 said:


> Therein lies the problem. There are just so many things I want to do. I would like to build model steam engines, mini IC engines. Fireworks tooling. Tools for woodworking. I undoubtedly will be getting both machines,  I am just unsure of how to proceed in the beginning. It seems like the mill can replicate some of the lathe operations to a very limited degree. For instance, I could turn an OD with a boring head, and bore and ID as well. I'm just not sure the lathe can really replicate the Mill.
> 
> What about a dual machine like the G0156 or the G9729?
> 
> ...



Both those machines are pretty light weight. Although I'm not familiar with either of them, just going by the specs. As many people have found a dual purpose machine is at best a compromise generally not doing either very well. 

From the list of things you want to I don't think the machines you have mentioned so far are big enough. Have you had a look at the designs for these projects. The model steam engines usually have quite sizable flywheels, your lateh will need to be able to fit them.

I would be looking at a 12x 20 as a minimum. I know my own lathe is a 12 x 16 but I have  a space limitation and I definately wanted min 12" dia swing, so had to get the shorter bed. If I had the room I would have gone for a 14 x 36 with gap bed, but no room. 
Also don't ever think you can't do milling operations on a lathe, by mounting parts in a chuck or on a face plate, you can face off flat surfaces. You can even mount parts on the crosslide and put milling cutters in holders that fit the lathe spindle. A lathe can be modified to be a useful milling machine. You just have to think about it. Finally as others have said check out your local tech or high schools for suitable classes. 

Bob.


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## snyper1982 (Nov 12, 2017)

I should note, I have a hard limit of 3k. That includes shipping and tooling. Obviously that is for this initial purchase, I will continue buying new tooling, and new machines. I like the precision Matthews, but they are a little bit out of my price range. I also am convinced that separate machines are the way to go. I was just curious if anyone else had any experience with combo machines.

With regard to the firework tooling, and a lathe with a taper attachment, I though I could cut a taper with the cross slide?


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## snyper1982 (Nov 12, 2017)

bobshobby said:


> Both those machines are pretty light weight. Although I'm not familiar with either of them, just going by the specs. As many people have found a dual purpose machine is at best a compromise generally not doing either very well.
> 
> From the list of things you want to I don't think the machines you have mentioned so far are big enough. Have you had a look at the designs for these projects. The model steam engines usually have quite sizable flywheels, your lateh will need to be able to fit them.
> 
> ...



 I just signed up for the local JC. Trying to get enrolled for next semester. I would love to get a larger lathe, but I just don't have the money for it right now. really, a 10" is going to be the best I can do for at least a couple years. I am sure I will upgrade to a lager space and lathe after a while, but for now I think I am stuck with a 10", not JUST because of the money, but space limitations also.

I am glad to hear I will be able to do some milling operations on the lathe. But I really look forward to having both. 

Just a side note, is there any ways to actually use the lathe to supplement my income? Help pay for an upgrade and possibly a mill? That would be awesome.


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## snyper1982 (Nov 12, 2017)

richl said:


> Welcome!
> 
> Buy the biggest lathe you can afford, used you get a lot of bang for your buck. Might be worth it to look around before committing yourself to a small hobby machine. You are in an area of the country that should have machines available within a few hours of you.
> 
> ...



You might think... I have been looking on craigslist, but can never seem to find any decent deals. Anytime I do see a good deal, it is for a machine WAY to large for me. Maybe there are some other places I can check out to buy used? Any ideas?


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## snyper1982 (Nov 12, 2017)

Uglydog said:


> snyper1982,
> With the new IT format it is difficult to now your general location.
> There are occasionally threads here at HM where someone is looking for a Mentor. Consider posting your location. There may be someone just down the street or at least a reasonable driving distance who wouldn't mind spending a day with you doing some hands on.
> 
> ...




Oh. I am in Modesto, California. A mentor would be awesome!


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## snyper1982 (Nov 12, 2017)

Nick Hacking said:


> As a newbie too, my advice is probably not all that valuable. I started with a lathe: it's a very popular old hobby lathe here in Britain and it didn't take me long to find second-hand milling attachments.
> 
> The thing with mills seems to be that the more rigid the spindle and table the better and a milling attachment in a hobby lathe is not all that rigid, so it's a viable solution if you are on a budget and are planning on light milling for small parts. But, now that I've got myself a serious mill, I think that I'd have been better off not spending the money on the lathe attachments and putting it towards the mill.
> 
> ...



I think you are right. I think I will bite the bullet and get a lathe first. No just which one. I would really like to get the PM, But I think I will go with the G0602Z. It is 400 cheaper than the PM, AND comes with DRO. IF the PM had a DRO on it, I would get it, but I just can't justify the extra expense otherwise.


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## Chipper5783 (Nov 12, 2017)

Make some money on the side? If you are set up and you know what you are doing, you can make enough as an excuse to buy more tooling. You are neither.  Machining as a business is very competitive.

Invent some trinket for the RC guys, or the off roaders, or the gun guys, . . . Them sell that.

Why do you need to buy the lathe now? Wait, save your money. Take that JC course.  Go look at as many lathes as you can (just a tire kicker).

That DRO version? A DRO on a lathe is not a big deal. I have a DRO on my one mill, it is awesome, basically it is a game changer. I have never used a lathe with a DRO, I think it would be handy in some places, but it is not a game changer. I buy tooling all the time, a DRO for the lathe is way down the list.

You can add a DRO any time. Put the money into the basic machine, not the glitzy trinkets.


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## Eddyde (Nov 12, 2017)

snyper1982 said:


> I think you are right. I think I will bite the bullet and get a lathe first. No just which one. I would really like to get the PM, But I think I will go with the G0602Z. It is 400 cheaper than the PM, AND comes with DRO. IF the PM had a DRO on it, I would get it, but I just can't justify the extra expense otherwise.


You may wan to look closer at the PM lathe. In my opinion it is easy to justify the extra $$. A quick look at the specs shows it to have several more useful features over the Grizzly. 1. It has continuously variable speed 50-2000 rpm that, alone is worth it. (the low rpm is much more useful for threading especially for a beginner).
2. It comes with a quick change tool post, Thats something you'll would probably want you upgrade the Grizzly to right away.
3. it has power cross-feed, a very nice feature especially for getting nice finishes on facing. That's a feature you cannot add on later.
4. A three year warrantee.
VS a DRO that you don't really need. (DROs are a lot more useful on a mill than a lathe) Also, that DRO isn't a proper full featured DRO, it it a stripped down position only unit.
Choose wisely!


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## Uglydog (Nov 12, 2017)

snyper1982 said:


> Oh. I am in Modesto, California. A mentor would be awesome!



Great!!
It's unfortunate that Minnesota is so far away.

Consider a post at:  
http://www.hobby-machinist.com/foru...ign-up-here-to-give-help-or-receive-help.199/

Daryl
MN


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## ttabbal (Nov 12, 2017)

You can add a similar position only DRO to any machine for about $130 using igaging parts. You can upgrade that to a touchdro with a $70 board and an Android tablet or even an old phone. You can also buy a full DRO from aliexpress for about $200. 

My budget was 3k as well. I was a little hung up on DRO as well. I decided I can add it later and use magnetic mounted dial indicators for now. And with shipping I went over $98. It will take some time as the one I chose is backordered, so I'm picking up bits here and there to fill in. Primarily ebay. I expect I'll spend a few hundred more before I make chips, but I think overall I will enjoy the machine more. 

A few things I was convinced by.. 

Full variable speed. 
Power cross feed. 
Included QCTP. Note that some machines can't just bolt one on... 
D1-4 chuck, very compatible. Easy to get things like a collet chuck later if I want to. 
1.5" bore. I have some projects in mind right now that will use it. It sounds like some of yours might as well. 
Wider bed, rigidity is increased, less tool chatter, flex, etc. 
Hardened ways. More durable. 
Included tooling. Things like steady and follow rests, 4 jaw, QCTP, face plate.. 
Comparing reviews between Grizzly and PM users. 

As for what you need to make chips, some HSS bits, or carbide. A couple dial indicators and a magnetic base. A tailstock drill chuck. Some center drills. Calipers and micrometer. Oil for the ways, cutting etc.. I'm going with cheaper indicators to start, tests show them to be very accurate, and it's always nice to have some you don't mind getting beat up. I'll add some nice ones later. I'm sure I'll break at least one, I'd rather it be a $15 indicator than a $150 unit. 

Just putting my reasoning out there from a fellow newbie. I don't know that my way is best, but it makes sense to me. Whatever you get, use the hell out of it and make cool stuff. Then post pics.


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## Ulma Doctor (Nov 12, 2017)

Hey snyper1982,
i just saw the thread,
welcome to the forum.
here is my .02
buy the largest lathe you can afford, then buy the largest mill you can afford.
i did things the other way around, and bought small- then bought big. 
now i have a shop full of both.
you are close enough there in modesto, i live in Tracy-
you could swing by my shop and see some of the different equipment i have and talk shop
send me a message


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## snyper1982 (Nov 12, 2017)

Chipper5783 said:


> Make some money on the side? If you are set up and you know what you are doing, you can make enough as an excuse to buy more tooling. You are neither.  Machining as a business is very competitive.
> 
> Invent some trinket for the RC guys, or the off roaders, or the gun guys, . . . Them sell that.
> 
> ...



Its not that I need the DRO. But the 2 lathes I am looking at, one is 400 cheaper and it comes with a DRO.


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## jlsmithseven (Nov 12, 2017)

Lathe has it's special place and is a lot of fun to watch your projects turn into something really stunning and artistic, but the mill has so many uses and it's much more practical. I would choose a mill first if I had a choice, but that's me.


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## jlsmithseven (Nov 12, 2017)

snyper1982 said:


> Its not that I need the DRO. But the 2 lathes I am looking at, one is 400 cheaper and it comes with a DRO.



A DRO on a lathe saves a lot of time. It's really valuable.


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## snyper1982 (Nov 12, 2017)

Eddyde said:


> You may wan to look closer at the PM lathe. In my opinion it is easy to justify the extra $$. A quick look at the specs shows it to have several more useful features over the Grizzly. 1. It has continuously variable speed 50-2000 rpm that, alone is worth it. (the low rpm is much more useful for threading especially for a beginner).
> 2. It comes with a quick change tool post, Thats something you'll would probably want you upgrade the Grizzly to right away.
> 3. it has power cross-feed, a very nice feature especially for getting nice finishes on facing. That's a feature you cannot add on later.
> 4. A three year warrantee.
> ...




Thank you. Thats info that is more useful. I know I can add a DRO later. I didn't realize that it had all the features you listed. I didn't notice it had a powered cross feed. The tool post I did notice, but again, thats not a $400  dollar upgrade. As for the variable speed, I seem to remember reading that the variable speed motors are sometimes not as good? I can't quite remember what it was. But I think it had something to do with being better off just upgrading to a higer end 3 phase motor with a VFD or something like that.

But you have given me a lot to think about. I do like idea of having a powered cross slide. Just out of curiosity, how useful is that feature?


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## snyper1982 (Nov 12, 2017)

ttabbal said:


> You can add a similar position only DRO to any machine for about $130 using igaging parts. You can upgrade that to a touchdro with a $70 board and an Android tablet or even an old phone. You can also buy a full DRO from aliexpress for about $200.
> 
> My budget was 3k as well. I was a little hung up on DRO as well. I decided I can add it later and use magnetic mounted dial indicators for now. And with shipping I went over $98. It will take some time as the one I chose is backordered, so I'm picking up bits here and there to fill in. Primarily ebay. I expect I'll spend a few hundred more before I make chips, but I think overall I will enjoy the machine more.
> 
> ...




What did you end up getting? After areading all the posts on here, I am now leaning towards the PM-1030V. The QCTP is around $200, and then the variable speed also. That makes up for the $400.

http://www.precisionmatthews.com/shop/pm-1022v-pm-1030v/

I selected the 1030V, then the addons I selected, The Stand, The drill chuck for the tailstock, The AXA master turning/boring set, and the 1/2" internal/external threading set.

Any other tools you would recommend?

 I like the idea of using magnetic calipers for a temp, dro solution. I know I will need some center drills. Also Some cutoff tools. Cutting oil too. Can't think of anything else right now.


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## ttabbal (Nov 12, 2017)

I was originally thinking of going with the 1030. I became convinced that the 1127 was enough of an upgrade that it was worth going that way and picking up tooling a little bit at a time rather than grabbing sets up front. The things I mentioned apply to the 1030 as much as the grizzly version. I decided that getting the better machine was the way to go.


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## Downunder Bob (Nov 12, 2017)

snyper1982 said:


> Oh. I am in Modesto, California. A mentor would be awesome!



Snyper, to get an idea of some milling operations on a lathe have a look at a recent post by Mark F.  He builds a new fixed steady and uses his lathe for milling parts, because his mill isn't big enough.


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## coherent (Nov 12, 2017)

I have a G0602... I put my own dro on it later. An option to consider. Get the lathe first. Learn how to use it. Get  a mill later.. Then learn it. I also have a G0704... Didn't want dro because I converted it to CNC. If you are even considering CNC conversion for either machine, skip the dro costs... Kinda redundant. Ifyou have a limited budget,a lathe and tooling would be better than both machines and no tooling or accessories. Its pretty easy to match or exceed the machine e cost for tooling... Especially with a mill.


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## tq60 (Nov 12, 2017)

In modesto you have the whole central valley to look.

Mills like Bridgeport are scarce and go fast if priced decent and lathes are all over the place in both location and price.

Search every market in the valley and check first thing in the day or at bedtime as they do come up.

We picked up a 1917 vintage sb for 200 and used it for 10 years and sold it for 600 3 years ago in the first day.

Plenty to look at and carry a wad of cash as many will bargain as they usually are clearing out an estate or divorce or upgrade.


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## Chipper5783 (Nov 12, 2017)

snyper1982 said:


> Thank you. Thats info that is more useful. I know I can add a DRO later. I didn't realize that it had all the features you listed. I didn't notice it had a powered cross feed. The tool post I did notice, but again, thats not a $400  dollar upgrade. As for the variable speed, I seem to remember reading that the variable speed motors are sometimes not as good? I can't quite remember what it was. But I think it had something to do with being better off just upgrading to a higer end 3 phase motor with a VFD or something like that.
> 
> But you have given me a lot to think about. I do like idea of having a powered cross slide. Just out of curiosity, how useful is that feature?



A powered cross slide is very useful (not something you can realistically add later).  A work around I`ve seen is to make up a drive shaft and motor the cross slide with a cordless drill.

You seem to be trying to purchase the cheapest product on the market, the trouble with that is you are likely to end up with the cheapest thing available.  Being tight on cash is very common here and often people spend years (decades) building up their shop.  Perhaps its` just me, but my experience of buying super cheap is that I end up paying more in the end.


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## Aukai (Nov 13, 2017)

Every machine I own now, had a cheaper smaller predecessor. Which means I payed twice. For my mill I bought Grizzly HSS stuff to learn, cheap(probably China),  and good for learning. The experts know the sounds to listen for. Burn a couple of bits you will know the sounds too. Then go on the prowl for better quality stuff, there is a huge difference in performance. Matt has basically taken the import machines, and had them modified to what a true machinist would want/needs in a machine. Not the knock off of the original to import standards that are lacking in quality, or ability. Kind of a hands on upgrade.


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## snyper1982 (Nov 13, 2017)

Chipper5783 said:


> A powered cross slide is very useful (not something you can realistically add later).  A work around I`ve seen is to make up a drive shaft and motor the cross slide with a cordless drill.
> 
> You seem to be trying to purchase the cheapest product on the market, the trouble with that is you are likely to end up with the cheapest thing available.  Being tight on cash is very common here and often people spend years (decades) building up their shop.  Perhaps its` just me, but my experience of buying super cheap is that I end up paying more in the end.



I don't want to buy the cheapest on the market, I just have a limited budget. I have decided to step up to the PM-1030V. I was under the impression the precission matthews were good quality machines? I would absolutely love to be able to drop 15-20K on an awesome machine, but I just don't have that kind of cash. Not only that I don't have the space for a machine of that size. My lathe is going to be setup in an already cramped space, so the 1030V is going to be pushing it as is. 




coherent said:


> I have a G0602... I put my own dro on it later. An option to consider. Get the lathe first. Learn how to use it. Get  a mill later.. Then learn it. I also have a G0704... Didn't want dro because I converted it to CNC. If you are even considering CNC conversion for either machine, skip the dro costs... Kinda redundant. Ifyou have a limited budget,a lathe and tooling would be better than both machines and no tooling or accessories. Its pretty easy to match or exceed the machine e cost for tooling... Especially with a mill.



I didn't think about that as far as the mill. But I have been toying with the idea of converting the mill to CNC when I get it. Thanks for the input, I will definitely forgo the DRO on the mill. I also have been noticing the  tooling costs for mills vs lathes. There just seems to be so many more types of tools for the mill.


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## Aukai (Nov 13, 2017)

1228vf-lb?


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## Downunder Bob (Nov 13, 2017)

snyper1982 said:


> Oh. I am in Modesto, California. A mentor would be awesome!


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## Eddyde (Nov 13, 2017)

snyper1982 said:


> Thank you. Thats info that is more useful. I know I can add a DRO later. I didn't realize that it had all the features you listed. I didn't notice it had a powered cross feed. The tool post I did notice, but again, thats not a $400  dollar upgrade. As for the variable speed, I seem to remember reading that the variable speed motors are sometimes not as good? I can't quite remember what it was. But I think it had something to do with being better off just upgrading to a higer end 3 phase motor with a VFD or something like that.
> 
> But you have given me a lot to think about. I do like idea of having a powered cross slide. Just out of curiosity, how useful is that feature?


You're welcome,
The variable speed, three phase motor VFD combo is a good way of achieving variable speed control for a machine that didn't already have it. However, I don't recall reading about anyone removing factory installed VS system and replacing it. 
Power cross-feed can be used for parting off and giving fine finishes on facing operations. Also, if you do get a milling attachment, you'll have a power feed for milling!



snyper1982 said:


> What did you end up getting? After areading all the posts on here, I am now leaning towards the PM-1030V. The QCTP is around $200, and then the variable speed also. That makes up for the $400.
> 
> http://www.precisionmatthews.com/shop/pm-1022v-pm-1030v/
> 
> ...



Now your talking! Good choice and smart to upgrade to the 30" bed, length will likely be more valuable than turning diameter for the work you described. Sounds like you will have enough lathe tools to get started. You will also need calipers and or a micrometer. A dial indicator with magnetic base is helpful too. Oh, and some steel and aluminum bar stock.... and.....


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## snyper1982 (Nov 13, 2017)

Aukai said:


> 1228vf-lb?



My budget is 3k. Firm.


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## 34_40 (Nov 15, 2017)

Snyper, did you see post 36 above.  Maybe help is closer than you thought???


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## snyper1982 (Nov 16, 2017)

Yes I saw it. We have been in touch already.


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## talvare (Nov 16, 2017)

Ulma Doctor said:


> you are close enough there in modesto, i live in Tracy-
> you could swing by my shop and see some of the different equipment i have and talk shop
> send me a message



Snyper 1982,

Take him up on his offer. I know Mike and you will gain more knowledge in two hours spent with him than you will in two years trying to figure out everything on your own.

Ted


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## kitch (Nov 16, 2017)

If you go with Grizzly then I would suggest you upgrade to the GO752Z. I own one and it is the same lathe as the 602 with the addition of a VFD (variable frequency drive). This gives you variable speed from 100 - 2000 rpm for about $400 more bucks. I have been overall very satisfied with mine. Only complaint would be the spindle is threaded 1 3/4-8. Grizzly does not seem to stock chuck backplates in this size, so if you ever need one to add another chuck, you would have to go elswhere to get one. I added a 5C collet chuck and got the needed backplate from Shars. 

kitch


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## fradish (Nov 16, 2017)

I think you'll be happy with the 1030.  It looks like it comes with a lot of accessories and I think you'll be glad
you went with the longer bed.  One thing which would have bothered me in the past was the non-standard
spindle nose, but Matt now even has space back plates you can buy, so you can just buy plain-back chucks
and mount them to that back plate.  The 1" spindle through bore is better than my South Bend 9".

I have a PM1228-LB and I really like the variable speed and powered cross feed.  Matt has been really good to 
deal with.  I also have a PM727M and I bought a set of 1/2" turning tools from him.  Very happy with all of my
purchases.


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## snyper1982 (Nov 16, 2017)

talvare said:


> Snyper 1982,
> 
> Take him up on his offer. I know Mike and you will gain more knowledge in two hours spent with him than you will in two years trying to figure out everything on your own.
> 
> Ted


I will definitely take him up on his offer.


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## snyper1982 (Nov 16, 2017)

https://sacramento.craigslist.org/tls/d/1936-south-bend-workshopy/6388436013.html

I found this for sale in my area. Is it worth it? Or should I go with the precision matthews?


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## Bob Korves (Nov 16, 2017)

snyper1982 said:


> https://sacramento.craigslist.org/tls/d/1936-south-bend-workshopy/6388436013.html
> 
> I found this for sale in my area. Is it worth it? Or should I go with the precision matthews?


Those are decisions YOU need to make.  For machines we have not seen, we can only give general advise.  I am in Sacramento if I can be of assistance.  Have you contacted Ulma Doctor (Mike Walton) yet?  He can perhaps also help with your questions, lives in Tracy, has machines of his own he may want to part with, and is a kind, helpful guy, and my friend...
To contact H-M members, hover over their handle in the blue text, a box pops up, and click on "Start conversation."  You can then discuss things with others away from the main forums if that better suits a specific need.  You can invite others to the conversation as well.


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## fradish (Nov 16, 2017)

I would go for the PM.  That is very much like my South Bend 9C.  No cross power feed, no separate
feed (only half nuts), 3/4" through bore.  Threaded spindle, flat belt drive and no variable speed.
Plus you're probably limited to around 600 rpm.

Also I don't see a 4 jaw chuck, steady rest, faceplate, etc that you get with the pm.


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## snyper1982 (Nov 16, 2017)

Bob Korves said:


> Those are decisions YOU need to make.  For machines we have not seen, we can only give general advise.  I am in Sacramento if I can be of assistance.  Have you contacted Ulma Doctor (Mike Walton) yet?  He can perhaps also help with your questions, lives in Tracy, has machines of his own he may want to part with, and is a kind, helpful guy, and my friend...
> To contact H-M members, hover over their handle in the blue text, a box pops up, and click on "Start conversation."  You can then discuss things with others away from the main forums if that better suits a specific need.  You can invite others to the conversation as well.


I understand I have to make the decision. I just like to have as much information as possible before I make one. I don't know anything about the older lathes like the one I posted about. That is Why I posted about it here, hoping to hear from people who are more knowledgeable in the area. I was simply asking if the price  for that lathe seemed reasonable, or if they are asking way to much. 

I have contacted Ulma Doctor. We haven't set anything thing up yet, but I was also contacted by some other people about a meet up this weekend. I am hoping to stop by and meet some new people. Then I am going to go check out the lathe I posted about. Which is another reason I was asking about it. What types of questions should I be asking? And what should I be looking out for? Thanks.


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## Bob Korves (Nov 16, 2017)

The older South Bend 9" lathe is an antique.  It appears to be in pretty good condition.  Some of us love old iron and feel part of the history it has known. and cherish and care for it, as well as using it as a lathe for making the things we want to make.  Others don't want to mess around with machines that are not plug and play, the want to get to work on the most modern machine possible ASAP.  Those are just two approaches used by hobby machinists, and there are lots more.  Snyper, I reread the posts so far, and I do not see anywhere in them what you plan to accomplish, to learn, to make, on the lathe you eventually purchase.  It is difficult to send you in a direction when we do not know what you have in mind after you own it.  As it is, most of the advice will be mostly what the advisor would want for himself, not for you.  To help you reach your goals we need some idea of what your current goals are.  I think it is great that you are making contacts with others in the machining community.  Listen to their advice carefully, and remember to be asking for specific help for the things YOU want to do with your lathe, not what they might have in mind for you to do with it.  It will work out lots better if you and your lathe fit each other well...


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## Eddyde (Nov 16, 2017)

snyper1982 said:


> https://sacramento.craigslist.org/tls/d/1936-south-bend-workshopy/6388436013.html
> 
> I found this for sale in my area. Is it worth it? Or should I go with the precision matthews?


It looks nice but it has no quick change gear box so you have to manually add and remove gears to change feeds and threads. Also no cross feed and IMHO kind of pricy. I have a similar SB 9" lathe, it was great when that's all I had but now it sits idle, stored under the pool table... My 2 cents: Being you are a beginner and want to jump right in to making things and may not be into dealing with vintage iron, the PM might be a better choice.


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## snyper1982 (Nov 17, 2017)

Bob Korves said:


> The older South Bend 9" lathe is an antique.  It appears to be in pretty good condition.  Some of us love old iron and feel part of the history it has known. and cherish and care for it, as well as using it as a lathe for making the things we want to make.  Others don't want to mess around with machines that are not plug and play, the want to get to work on the most modern machine possible ASAP.  Those are just two approaches used by hobby machinists, and there are lots more.  Snyper, I reread the posts so far, and I do not see anywhere in them what you plan to accomplish, to learn, to make, on the lathe you eventually purchase.  It is difficult to send you in a direction when we do not know what you have in mind after you own it.  As it is, most of the advice will be mostly what the advisor would want for himself, not for you.  To help you reach your goals we need some idea of what your current goals are.  I think it is great that you are making contacts with others in the machining community.  Listen to their advice carefully, and remember to be asking for specific help for the things YOU want to do with your lathe, not what they might have in mind for you to do with it.  It will work out lots better if you and your lathe fit each other well...



Thank you. I never though about it like that. Well pretty much, I am looking to eventually transition into this as a career. Whether that is owning a small business or just being a machinist, that is to far down the road to say. I don't know enough about the industry to decide one way or the other. So right now, I am looking for a good lathe, for a good price, that I can learn on, and create a portfolio showcasing my work. I imagine it would be easier to find a job, if you can show prospective employers your previous work. 

So there are my longer term goals. For shorter term goals, I need to get the lathe, the tooling, and get it all set up. As for tooling, should I go with indexable or not? Also, what would be some good beginner projects for me to try my hand at. and some good books for me to get? I believe I have read that the Machinery's Handbook is a must own.

Thanks.


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## snyper1982 (Nov 17, 2017)

Eddyde said:


> It looks nice but it has no quick change gear box so you have to manually add and remove gears to change feeds and threads. Also no cross feed and IMHO kind of pricy. I have a similar SB 9" lathe, it was great when that's all I had but now it sits idle, stored under the pool table... My 2 cents: Being you are a beginner and want to jump right in to making things and may not be into dealing with vintage iron, the PM might be a better choice.




Thank you.


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## Mitch Alsup (Nov 17, 2017)

Hello everybody, This is my first post (and a bit of an introduction)::

I have had and use a Taig microLathe for 20+ years and even have/use the milling attachment.
I used this lathe to make a bunch of round things and a few slots for a 20" telescope I built 18 years ago.
Other that building this telescope and a few R/C racing cars, I have little background in machining,
but a lot of background in drafting (CAD, blueprints,...) 
So I know how to make the drawings that can be assembled into finished parts, 
But little on how to make precision parts.......

Last year I retired from having designed computer chips for 35 years, and I am gifting myself three large telescopes, and as it turns out, gifting myself a machine shop to make them in too.

Right now I am building a 13", a 20", and a 30" telescopes, and while I did build my 20" F/4 DOB with little more than the Taig, hacksaw, file, vise, and drill press. I decided for the 30" and its support requirements I am building; a new set of tooling was going to make my effort go down. So this spring, I got an 8×30 mill (G0730) and to accompany it a G4003G lathe, backed up with a 14" metal bandsaw, and a small table saw. 

For me my mill was limited because the structural engineer said the concrete floor would not hold the weight of a Bridgeport on the footprint of the BP. So, limited to "about" 1000 pounds for the mill, I spent months looking at CL, Ebay, ... looking for "as big as possible" but not over 1000 pounds. Clausings, Rockwell made things that fit the bill, it is just there was no readily available supply, on the lathe side, SouthBend,... made lathes with similar floor loadings. But after a couple of months looking, and not wanting to drive 1/2 way across the country, and finally, wanting a working machine not a project to finish before getting to the telescopes; I decided to just buy some new Grizzly stuff.

My initial inclination was that I would be using the lathe and the mill about as much as each other. This has not been the case as of yet. I find myself making many more parts and spending a lot more time on the mill than on the lathe. I think a lot of this has to do with the experience I have had on the Taig, and the fact that the G4003G pretty much runs itself, whereas setting up intricate assemblies in the mill so a hole can be flat faced, drilled, relieved, and tapped in 2 or 3 parts simultaneously is simply a lot harder than making something round. 

I happen to need a lot of strange looking parts in order to make the mirror cell for the 30" telescope. Many of these parts articulate on small ball bearings, and they require bearing fits on the race and shafts. Some of these look a lot simpler to make when all you have to do to draw them is a couple of carefully chosen clicks, and mouse movements. Actually taking raw stock metal and making the part fit the blueprint is not often straightforward, especially when one is looking for 0.001 interference fits for the bearings and trying to bore such a hole at 0.2485. I can't tell you how many attempts it took before I figured it out. But sé la vie, it's a good learning experience.

Back to the OPs question: There is no question that the first machine should be the lathe, because a lathe makes things sufficiently round that you cannot make so critically round with any other means (files and drill press). The mill is performing the work of the hacksaw, file, and drill press, but if you are persistent, careful, and attentive, you can generally make acceptable parts without the mill (albeit at higher effort).


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## philip-of_Oregon (Nov 18, 2017)

WELCOME to to hobby-machinist! Lots of good answers above!

When I decided to leave Metal Casting, or maybe Improve Upon it, I choose a Lathe. Now, there are dozens of Companies making Many Sizes, That Said, I wanted to do Minature Steam Engines, and I Choose the TAIG LATHE, from AZ. The more I studied (prior to purchase) the More Intrigue I had.

Finally, I had a Once in a lifetime chance to VISIT, and have a Personal TOUR by the Owner himself! That he was a Rocket Enginner caught in the "Down Sizing" of NASA was very interesting. He had a Concept, he put it into Production and It is great! Now I am not sure how other larger Lathes "Package" there Machines, but his thought was START Basic, and as On add you Need/Want to. So the most basic Lathe KIT, which I bought & Assembled, via very Well Written Instructions, in Plain English was: the Bed, HeadStock & the Cross-Feed unit Plus his Collet System which he custom designed for Both Economy & Accuracy.

One of the "Extras" on the Accessories was a Vise and Milling setup, which was fitted upon the crossfeed!

My First Steam engine had a 0.250" piston inside a 0.500" Head, called a "wobbler design", it would run on air supplied either by a pump or just blow into the tube.

!!! I was Hooked !!!  I had to stop for several years, for various reasons, but I will be up and running that Lathe, and other Equipment, by 2018.

My list of equipment (2 decades of purchasing) 2 TAIG Lathes, one was for Wood Only, I may convert it to CNC. One TAIG MICRO MILL (CNC) and 1 Micro-Mark 7X14 (Never even Used) I also have A Pair of Seig CO Nano Lathes/Mills one of each Lathe & Mill, they convert back & forth, they run ER-11 collets, the second Smallest ER collet made, IIRC.

All of above to say Do WHAT you want to do, You will get hooked, for sure!

philip


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