# What Is A ==========



## Bill Gruby

Now that I have you undivided attention, here is the whole question.

What is a Seat Of The Pants Machinist and why is it important to have at least one at hand???  No Machinist starts his career as one but many end up with this title.. Then there are many that never will get to this point.There are many on this Forum.

Go for it boys and girls. This should be fun as there is almost no wrong answer for this question. Keep ic clean please.

"Billy G" Seat of the Pants Machinist.


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## ogberi

No  plan, no dimensions, not even so much as a scribble.  The whole project in my head, dimensions come according to the stock I find in the scrap bin.  There is no less care or precision than as with any project from drawn plans.  But when finished,  it's as useful and well made as a planned project.


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## John Hasler

Bill Gruby said:


> What is a Seat Of The Pants Machinist and why is it important to have at least one at hand?


I first read that as "What is a Seat Of The Pants Machinist and why is it important to have at least one hand?"


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## jpfabricator

Boss...."This is what we want (read impossibl), this is what we have to make it (read nothing), this is when we need it (read yesterday)."
S.O.T.P.M...."It will be ready after lunch."


Sent from somewhere in East Texas Jake Parker


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## Bill Gruby

All great answers so far. Newbies are allowed in here also. Actually this question was directed toward the New People.

 I feel that a single word has not been said yet. Once someone comes up with it all will fall into place here.

 All Machinists start out with the written words of the trade, then a few find another road to solutions of problems. This is where I have to stop, if I say more it will become obvious what I seek.

 "Billy G"


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## Andre

I recall reading this somewhere (and I paraphrase), "A real Machinist doesn't need tolerances, he makes things _just right."
_
A SOTP machinist or tradesman has been around the block and knows all the tricks, rendering him a very efficient and skillful worker. Not everybody can become one because it requires a certain method of thinking not all posses. Fast thinking and alertness help as well.


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## Bill Gruby

All good traits Andre, add patience and perseverance  to the list also.  Still one eight letter work missing. Kudos to all that have answered so far.

 "Billy G"


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## chips&more

Tool & Die Maker?


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## ogberi

Patience?


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## RJSakowski

Inventor


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## Bill Gruby

Try this one. It's head and shoulders above the rest.

 "INSTINCT"


 "Billy G"


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## brav65

Bill Gruby said:


> Try this one. It's head and shoulders above the rest.
> 
> "INSTINCT"
> 
> 
> "Billy G"


I would have to agree with you Bill. I was just speaking with a young guy working on the same project with me. He asked me how I could be so calm when the plans, specs and details wer so bad and I had to make a decision that could cost a million dollars. I told him that the correct answer always feels right to spite what all the paperwork says. I have seen guys who do not have the feel/instinct for the job. In fact I have to give aanither guy the option to get with the program and make better decisions or find somewhere else to work today.


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## Billh50

As a retired special machine builder I always needed instinct in order to trouble shoot the machines as they were run. 98% of the time if you had trouble at a station on the machine it was caused by 1 or 2 stations prior to that one. But I have seen other builders not even look at the ones before and then say they can't figure out what is happening. I have also  had many an argument with engineers as to why something will not work. Most of which I won in the end. Something may look good on paper but it does always mean it will work.


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## Bill Gruby

Think of it like this:

 You are called to a repair. Is the first person you talk to the supervisor? No it's not, what does he know. How about the set up person? Again no, they only know the repair is out of their job description. You go to the operator, why you ask, because he or she was the last one to see things in motion. You ask them what happened. Now you listen to them. They say there was a plinking sound then a loud bang and the machine stopped dead. You ask where in general the plinking, not the bang came from. They say from the gear end of the machine. You concentrate your efforts there. You see nothing so you go deeper into the machine. You take the first gear off and low and behold a tooth or two is missing from the gear behind it. Some machinists would stop here and change the gear to get the machine running again. OK done deal we have the machine running again. Everyone is happy.

Wrong ---The seat of the pants machinist know something else broke the gear. What was it. Instinct takes over here. Let the machine run or go deeper. He listens, something does not sound correct. He has heard this before. He remembers what it was and instinctively goes there. Found it he says. We fix this and we are good to go.

The broken gear was the end of the problem, not the root of it. Get to the root and the problem now has the correct solution. Instinct is not taught. It's either there or it's not. Brooks you can come work for me anytime.

The title Seat of the Pants Machinist", is earned. Your peers give it to you. They know the difference. Too many give titles to themselves.

"Billy G"


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## T Bredehoft

I hadn't thought it out, but yeah, it's gotta be instinct, or natural suspicion, or something like that. You know something else is wrong, gotta work it out. Good question, Bill, its what separates the genius from the hacker. (not software hacker, but ax hacker.)


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## brav65

I often lay in bed at night and simultaneously discover a problem and a solution at the same time. I will look at something during the day and know there is an issue, and when I am finally relaxed and not destracted I realize my subconscious identified the problem and resolved it without actually putting conscious thought to it.


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## Bill Gruby

That's pure instinct Brooks. No doubt about it. Some have it some never will. Don't read anything into this folks, I take nothing away from any Machinists here. They are all good in their own right.

 "Billy G"


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## REdington

brav65 said:


> I often lay in bed at night and simultaneously discover a problem and a solution at the same time. I will look at something during the day and know there is an issue, and when I am finally relaxed and not destracted I realize my subconscious identified the problem and resolved it without actually putting conscious thought to it.



I'm a over the road truck driver and while driving down the road, I have a lot of time to just think about how to make things and how it will work. 
I'm one of those who can draw everything up in my mind and never draw anything on paper and when I make it, it works most of the time.

 Rodney


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## kvt

some times the paper get in the way,   you have to have the instincts to look at it with out looking at what was on the paper.   or it will just mess you up.   Another thing is that if you cannot visualize what it is that you are making how can you truly understand what it is you are making.   I have often though that the engineers that   draw some of this stuff up need to spend a few years building, nd working on  the things then they can start designing and drawing things.   Then they might do a better job at some of it and make things that can more easily be done, and worked on.    Like when I was a mechanic why would a engineer design a car that you had to remove the battery, take out the engine mount, just to change the spark plugs.


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## JPigg55

Bill Gruby said:


> Try this one. It's head and shoulders above the rest.
> "INSTINCT"
> "Billy G"


I was thinking,
"COMMON/HORSE SENSE"
I think of "INSTINCT" as a sub catagory of good old common sense.
Although coarse common sense says a square peg won't fit a round hole.......unless you have a lathe and know how to use it.


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## ogberi

Bill, absolutely no offense taken at all.    While I may not be a seat-of-the-pants machinist, I completely understand what you're describing.  I see it with software all the time, I see it with hardware all the time, I see it with networking all the time.  

Sometimes the answer jumps out and bites you, sometimes you have to drag it kicking and screaming into the light.  Sometimes you have to shove the ranting, raving, obvious solution aside and figure out what has made it so angry.  

The only thing I disagree with is that Instinct can't be learned.  While some people can develop it faster than others, and it comes naturally to some, it can be learned.  Takes interest, dedication, a willingness to learn, and a lot of practice.  As I've said before, nobody pops out of their mamma's hoo-ha knowing how to do anything but poo, pee, cry, and suckle.  Everything else is learned. 

So I'm hoisting two fingers of good bourbon to salute all those seat-of-the-pants individuals who make it look easy.  All I ask is to share the knowledge.


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## thayne_1

18 plus years of fixing tractors combines etc has thought me that most of the time your past will come to play in any repair you make. You also get a feel for when its wright and when its wrong.


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## Damiansd

For me the word is 'courage'  to make the first cut (read that as mistake) 

Sent from my GT-I9197 using Tapatalk


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## bmanners

How about "The knack" as described by Dilbert in reference to (seat of the pants) Engineers but good machinists/welders/etc also have "the Knack".


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## Bill C.

I think "Seat of the pants machinist" are the inventors and troubleshooters.  The first shop I worked in as a machine operator built specialized machinery. There were a few machinists who worked directly with the design engineer. I seem to remember them tweaking and troubleshooting several machines either mechanical or electrical.

Almost everything looks great on paper, its when one turns a design into a finish project tweaking takes place. Some are trusted to make changes to get a project finished without asking for permission.


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## Billh50

Many of us older machinists and toolmakers are more than willing to give our knowledge to those who are willing to listen and learn.


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## uncle harry

Bill Gruby said:


> Think of it like this:
> 
> You are called to a repair. Is the first person you talk to the supervisor? No it's not, what does he know. How about the set up person? Again no, they only know the repair is out of their job description. You go to the operator, why you ask, because he or she was the last one to see things in motion. You ask them what happened. Now you listen to them. They say there was a plinking sound then a loud bang and the machine stopped dead. You ask where in general the plinking, not the bang came from. They say from the gear end of the machine. You concentrate your efforts there. You see nothing so you go deeper into the machine. You take the first gear off and low and behold a tooth or two is missing from the gear behind it. Some machinists would stop here and change the gear to get the machine running again. OK done deal we have the machine running again. Everyone is happy.
> 
> Wrong ---The seat of the pants machinist know something else broke the gear. What was it. Instinct takes over here. Let the machine run or go deeper. He listens, something does not sound correct. He has heard this before. He remembers what it was and instinctively goes there. Found it he says. We fix this and we are good to go.
> 
> The broken gear was the end of the problem, not the root of it. Get to the root and the problem now has the correct solution. Instinct is not taught. It's either there or it's not. Brooks you can come work for me anytime.
> 
> The title Seat of the Pants Machinist", is earned. Your peers give it to you. They know the difference. Too many give titles to themselves.
> 
> "Billy G"



I like to let the machine talk to me. Sort of like a horse whisper listener. It helps a lot if you designed and built the machine as well but that's cheating.


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## yendor

Yep - it like when a FUSE blows - do you replace the fuse and walk away or ask why did the fuse blow to begin with?


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## Tony Wells

I was gonna say a string of equal signs.

But then, I usually try to see the obvious first.


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## Fabrickator

I agree that instinct is a God-Given trait.  I also believe that God works in other ways.  Like Brooks said, if I have a problem - or a direction I believe that I'll take to resolve a problem ... sometimes I just sleep on it.  The answer is sometimes a completely different approach to resolve the problem.

Of course, there are a lot of problems that need an" instant" answer w/o the luxury of sleeping in it.  I worked in a production manufacturing environment where we didn't had to get machines up and running ASAP.  This is where instinct, intuition and experience really come in handy, especially if we could make a temporary repair until replacement parts come in.


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## dlane

Yup been there ,had to train several engineers fresh out of collage how things really work in the field . 
I'ed look over there papers, highlight what won't work then show them why. Some liked it some didn't.
They were probably paid more than me, but whatever it took to get things working rite was my job.


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## sanddan

Why does a discussion like this turn into a "lets bash the engineer" tirade. During my career I didn't spend a lot of time beating up the mechanics, assemblers, service tech's, welders and MACHINISTS when something didn't go according to plan. I am here to learn how to machine parts, fix/run equipment, not to read posts about how bad I am because of the job I did to earn a living. I bought my first welder 2 years after I graduated from engineering school for several reasons. First and foremost I wanted to be able to fabricate parts for my car hobby but I also wanted to have a better understanding of the welding/fabricating processes as I was designing undergrounding mining equipment which had many welded structures (frames, buckets, loader booms and linkages, etc.). I am a "seat of the pants" fabricator and also, I guess, engineer. I purchased my mill and lathe to better understand the machining process by doing it myself. I am not experienced at machining and at my age I won't have enough time to get really good at it but I have a lot of fun non the less. To visualize a design I have to use a computer as I just don't get the paper thing. That's neither good nor bad, it's just how it works for me. I don't put down people that use paper just because it doesn't work for me. I can't help it if you had a bad experience with an engineer sometime in your working career but don't automatically rubber stamp them all as a result. I've had mechanic's berate me for the way I designed something but they also had never been in a mine and actually saw how the machine was used. What might have made their job difficult was required to make the machine survive in the field. If it broke they called me to fix the problem, not the guy on the line who built it, so I had to be happy with the design. It was my ass on the line, not theirs.  

Sorry for the rant.


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## atunguyd

thayne_1 said:


> You also get a feel for when its wright and when its wrong.



Oh the irony.......    


Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


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## Bill Gruby

My apologies to you Sanddan. It was not my intent to even mention the engineering end of the spectrum. I will stay on top of it from here till the thread ends. To the rest of you, keep this on topic. Thank you.

 "Billy G"


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## dave2176

I for one don't believe that anybody can learn anything. You are born with gifts endowed from on high. You must develop them. Beethoven received the gift of music. My father was a great musician who spent years trying to teach his son music and regardless of how hard he tried it wasn't gelling yet my sons picked it up lickety split. I on the other hand I can fix mechanical things without effort. It just comes natural. I would drive dad crazy tearing down his transmission or whatever and throw all the parts in the solvent tank without labels on them. He wanted each piece to have its own envelope with a description of where it came from. I would say "dad, if you know what the part does then where it goes is easy." Just as dad honed his gift of music and others throughout his life, I have honed my several gifts which don't include music though I still have my guitars and play a little for myself.


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## Bill Gruby

Well said Dave, well said.

 "Billy G"


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## dlane

There is a learning curve for any job , no one comes out of collage knowing everything about everything, although some thought they did. Some of the fresh out of collage folks were thankfull for the real world advice I gave them and some weren't, they didn't last long.
This was at a plant that employed 7500 people. I was a maintenance tech for r&d labs and was known  to think out of the box to make something work correctly


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## brav65

sanddan said:


> Why does a discussion like this turn into a "lets bash the engineer" tirade. During my career I didn't spend a lot of time beating up the mechanics, assemblers, service tech's, welders and MACHINISTS when something didn't go according to plan. I am here to learn how to machine parts, fix/run equipment, not to read posts about how bad I am because of the job I did to earn a living. I bought my first welder 2 years after I graduated from engineering school for several reasons. First and foremost I wanted to be able to fabricate parts for my car hobby but I also wanted to have a better understanding of the welding/fabricating processes as I was designing undergrounding mining equipment which had many welded structures (frames, buckets, loader booms and linkages, etc.). I am a "seat of the pants" fabricator and also, I guess, engineer. I purchased my mill and lathe to better understand the machining process by doing it myself. I am not experienced at machining and at my age I won't have enough time to get really good at it but I have a lot of fun non the less. To visualize a design I have to use a computer as I just don't get the paper thing. That's neither good nor bad, it's just how it works for me. I don't put down people that use paper just because it doesn't work for me. I can't help it if you had a bad experience with an engineer sometime in your working career but don't automatically rubber stamp them all as a result. I've had mechanic's berate me for the way I designed something but they also had never been in a mine and actually saw how the machine was used. What might have made their job difficult was required to make the machine survive in the field. If it broke they called me to fix the problem, not the guy on the line who built it, so I had to be happy with the design. It was my ass on the line, not theirs.
> 
> Sorry for the rant.




I think I can answer your question.  I am an educated man, I hav a BA in Psychology, BS in Sports Medicine and am half way through my Masters.  I have 35 years of practical experience and grew up with a father that was an Architect.  I work in construction and deal with Architects and Engineers every day.  The problem comes when an engineer does not fully think out a situation, but applies their standard solution figuring that even if it overbuilt it will work.  When you try to have an intelligent informed discussion about the issue with their solution you get comments like "when you get your stamp you can do what you want, until then do it the way I want". That is completely unacceptable way to treat anyone.  This was a conversation I had yesterday.  My boss overheard the comment and told the guy he could work out a solution or his firm would be fired effective immediately.  It is a $50 Million contract, so the engineer finally listened and accepted my modification. This is an interaction that is more common than not, which gives all engineers a bad name.


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## dlane

Common sense (seat of the pants) dose not come from college last time I checked , 
I've known people that were common sense smart that went to collage and came out real world dumb with a paper saying they were  smart .                      
I'm over it to,


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## Bill Gruby

OK, I have had time to go over this entire thread, Some posts have been deleted. They were the beginning of the bashing. It was my call I made it. I now reopen this thread in hopes it will prosper. This thread has proven that it can be quite controversial when old memories are awakened. Some are good some are bad, so please remember, as innocent as you think the post may be, it can still hurt others.

"Billy G"


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## rmack898

Instinct, common sense, natural gift, or whatever you want to call it is when you are working on step one of a project and your mind is already working out the details of step three or four. 

Like someone else mentioned, you go to sleep at night thinking about a problem and wake in the morning with a solution.


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## vtcnc

JPigg55 said:


> I was thinking,
> "COMMON/HORSE SENSE"
> I think of "INSTINCT" as a sub catagory of good old common sense.
> Although coarse common sense says a square peg won't fit a round hole.......unless you have a lathe and know how to use it.


If it were common sense, it would be more common. All really good responses, but I feel common sense is a tricky way of saying: "I don't know how to teach you my deep profound knowledge and experience."

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## JimDawson

I’m a little late getting to this thread, but sometimes life (and work) gets in the way.

Who is this SOTPM guy?  While it may not be PC, I say guy because I have never worked with a lady in the shop, however I have met some ladies in the office that are the equivalent in their world.

A number of years ago I had the pleasure of being a maintenance supervisor in a manufacturing operation, primarily metal stamping.  Eight of my crew of ten all had traits that made them SOTPM, all of them were machinists / tool&die makers.  Any of them could repair the machines, including electrical.  Not one of them had a formal education or apprenticeship in machining.  I never had to tell them how to do a job, all I had to do was ask that it be done.  Made my life there pretty easy.  The other two required a babysitter and weren't SOTPMs. 

So what are these traits?

As said above they were intuitive.  But maybe more importantly, they all took ownership of a problem and solved it.  If they didn’t know how to do something right off, they figured it out.  I never heard the words ’’I don’t know how to do that’’.  If one of them came to me with a problem, they also normally had a solution for it also.  I encouraged all of them to think on their own.  It was very common the hear ‘’what do you think about this, or what if we….’’  95% of the time their ideas and solutions were better than anything I could have come up with quickly because they had thought it through.  All of them had confidence in themselves, were not afraid to try something new, and not afraid of failure.  You learn something from your failures; you learn what doesn’t work! 

If you are listening, machines ‘’talk’’ to you.  They will tell you when they are happy and when they are not.  The machine could be a small lathe or a large production line in a factory.  Most people can learn to listen to the machines; some people just have the natural ability to interpret what the machines are saying, others can learn.   Some will never get it.  It’s all about actually caring enough to listen.

The above is true whether you are operating a machine tool, driving a car, or flying an airplane.  One of my most interesting experiences in an airplane was flying with a guy in his C182.  He had no idea what the airplane was doing.  He could takeoff, cruise, and land, but could not feel the airplane.  IMHO, scan your instruments, but in VFR conditions you fly a light airplane by feel.  He had memorized all of the checklists and tables and was flying the airplane by-the-book.  There were no natural movements on his part.  I never went up with him again.  The machine should become an extension of your body.

The average non-mechanical person looks under the hood of a car and sees a mass of stuff and their mind can’t break it down into the components, and has no idea what anything does.  (and I’m not talking about modern cars where you can’t even see the engine under all of the plastic).  The mechanic looks under the hood, and sees a number of interconnected systems and (hopefully) understands how it all works and can mentally break it down into the individual components.  This is the result of experience, training, and a desire to actually learn what is going on.  Most times when you break everything down, it’s really pretty simple.

One of the simplest and also maybe most difficult thing to understand is that all machines are the same.  Shafts turn in bearings, gears mesh, things are bolted together, screws have mating nuts, if it slides it needs grease.  Every mechanical machine is no matter how complex is composed of only three simple devices, the wheel, the lever, and the incline plane.  Every mechanical device is a derivative of these three simple items.

If you’re not one already, how do you become a SOTPM?


Look at the problem, and then think it through.  Take the negative view, what could possibly go wrong, and then plan for that.

Break down a problem into its smallest parts; solve each piece of the puzzle as needed.  Things become simple once broken down.

Don’t be afraid to try new ideas.  As long as it’s not going to damage the machine or you, then go for it.

Don’t be afraid to fail, if it doesn’t work then you learned what doesn’t work.  That will set you on a new thought process.

Have confidence in yourself.  See above
Most people can get there if they want to.
.
.


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## scicior

A former boss of mine once described someone as "Educated beyond his intelligence".  He asked this newly minted PHD to do some calculations on what it would take to make a pre-placed crack in an aluminum grow when fatigued.  He came up with something like 10,000 cycles at 300 pounds.  I made the comment "So if I jump up and down on this 3/4" thick aluminum plate, with a 1/4" wide by 1/8" deep crack in it for a couple of hours, the crack will grow?" which made no sense to me.  But he ran the numbers again and insisted it was right.  Educated beyond his intelligence.

I'm an electrical engineer.  I was born one.  Yes, I went to college and have a piece of paper, but that doesn't mean much especially after the first job.  For a while I went to work for the phone company, who tried to re-invent itself by bringing in new blood in the form of college hires.  Previously an "outside plant engineer" was someone who worked themselves up through the ranks and knew how things operated, but now new engineers had to have a degree (which usually meant they had no experience in the field).  And the engineers hired were the kind that got engineering degrees because they were good at math and science, not because they were passionate about engineering.  If they were passionate about engineering this job wouldn't have been a good fit anyway, as I found out.  But it's situations like these that help create the bad reputation that engineers sometimes have.

I hope this isn't interpreted as bashing.  It's just my observations from being on both sides of the desk.  Maybe it might help some people see/understand the other side of the job title.

- Steve


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## kevinpg

Bill Gruby said:


> Now that I have you undivided attention, here is the whole question.
> 
> What is a Seat Of The Pants Machinist and why is it important to have at least one at hand???  No Machinist starts his career as one but many end up with this title.. Then there are many that never will get to this point.There are many on this Forum.
> 
> Go for it boys and girls. This should be fun as there is almost no wrong answer for this question. Keep ic clean please.
> 
> "Billy G" Seat of the Pants Machinist.




I am going to toss in my two cents.  I understand what Bill is getting at with instinct but having that mechanical inclination goes far beyond knowledge and experience to assimilation.  When you have actually assimilated a discipline, the tools and instinct you have developed allow you to have insight to other issues.  What I learned as a pipefitter in oil and gas really helped me when I was doing setups and stamping parts in a boat trailer plant and all of that helped understand cardiopulmonary systems and the human body when I was a practicing respiratory therapist which made computers easy to handle. 

I have known folks who worked an entire career in a technical field and somehow instead of 20 to 30 years experience, they seem to have 1 year experience 20-30 times over.  They never understand the root cause of an issue and therefore only perform superficial and often temporary repairs to whatever system they are working on. 

Can instinct be learned? I am not certain, but I will offer this. When I started as a respiratory therapist, I had to maintain some lab equipment, namely a corning ABG analyzer that had to be calibrated and electrodes cleaned on my shift.  At first, I followed the instructions for the ideal gas laws (PV=nRT -think that is correct - been thirty years ago).  then one night, I had an epiphany and it all just fell into place and I did not need all the aids, I could do the calculations in my head although I still checked my work.  Something instinctual happened and what was a drudgery before became a fun part of the day as I felt I fully understood the system.  Nowadays, all those machines calibrate themselves and I think that causes a loss of knowledge overall.  It makes the technical skill required to operate less and therefore a dumbing down of the process.  I would imagine the same thing happens when a machinist only has experience on CNC and never did a manual process like learning how to manually make an accurate bold pattern that matches.

My 2 cents anyway and a rambler at that.


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## catskinner

dave2176 said:


> I for one don't believe that anybody can learn anything. You are born with gifts endowed from on high. You must develop them. Beethoven received the gift of music. My father was a great musician who spent years trying to teach his son music and regardless of how hard he tried it wasn't gelling yet my sons picked it up lickety split. I on the other hand I can fix mechanical things without effort. It just comes natural. I would drive dad crazy tearing down his transmission or whatever and throw all the parts in the solvent tank without labels on them. He wanted each piece to have its own envelope with a description of where it came from. I would say "dad, if you know what the part does then where it goes is easy." Just as dad honed his gift of music and others throughout his life, I have honed my several gifts which don't include music though I still have my guitars and play a little for myself.



I fully agree, as a trainer at an underground mine, there are those that just don't get it, and then there are others who after a short time are suggesting or demonstrating a different method that saves time or material with the same end result.  And as a former "gypo" logger as far as instinct goes you have to have it in order to survive in the business. When you are 30 miles from town and something breaks down you have to be a "seat of the pants" fixer.  And I'm not talking hay wire fixer but someone carries a few of the most common parts that you happen to need the most frequently and know how to replace them. Also know how to adjust various parts of different machines and be able to dismantle and reassemble. This can also be referred to as mechanical aptitude.


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## Chiptosser

It's an accumulation of all past Experiences.


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## ki4byz

Creative
If we had more people in THIS country that would create (create as a trade)we would not have lost as many jobs across the water


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## The Liberal Arts Garage

Bill Gruby said:


> Try this one. It's head and shoulders above the rest.
> 
> "INSTINCT"
> 
> 
> "Billy G"


An easy term to use; a hard term to explain. In my years of restoring " difficult"
cars, most of my parts  were one or few. Some were simply non- existent, some
were alright for function, but designed " out of  period " , some were too heavy,
some too light,  some " deleted" (what were those holes for)?  Some were hack.
saw, file and chisel; some from unlikely  bits from odd catalogues.
    I grew up under a father who thought safety was taught by example, short
stories, and a  warning that  it was up to me. He also was sure he  could make
or fix any thing . His  course in Capitalism : Hardware Clerk -- "we don ' t have
those anymore, we couldn't keep them in stock.
     So, I never did learn machining , but inferred it from everything else.
     Perhaps swimming neck- deep in knowledge leads to " INSTINCT". T hanks
Billy G.   ..........BLJHB.


----------



## JimSimmons

A neophyte amateur machinist has an idea for a difficult project he wants to build. He posts his idea on a machinist forum. All the "experts" tell him that his idea is impossible and will never work. (Some will give answers that read like a thesis of a P.H.D.). But, in his ignorance, he goes ahead and machines the project and - IT WORKS! That, my friends, is a SOTPM.


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## GA Gyro

Excellent thread... Bill, THX for starting it... enjoyed the read!

I would like to add a phrase:  Mechanical intuition (which, I suppose, would cover electrical and hydraulic issues also).
Some of us (myself included) just seem to have this intuition (or instinct)... we can just look at something... and our minds just figure it out.  When I approach a heating and AC system... I like to joke that the neurons in my brain are running down the wires in the control circuits... looking for an electrical problem.  Folks just look at me, shake their heads, and say 'fix it'... which after the chuckle.... usually happens (unless replacement is a better value for the customer).  

I cannot think of the times a group of quite capable folks would be standing looking at something... and I would join them.  I would ask... and someone would kindly explain the issue.  The major issue (for me anyway)... was to determine the better way to convey the solution... without hurting anyone's feelings or sounding like a smart@$$.

As to whether folks are born with it or learn it... I think both.  While it seems some folks just are not mechanical (or electrical/hydraulic)... if I had not been exposed to a lot of things and had the opportunity to put my hands on them and fiddle with them... I seriously doubt I would have the depth of ability I now have. 

Another thing which may be part of it: If one enjoys fiddling with mechanical things... and gets those internal warm fuzzy feelings when they fix something and it works... well that does tend to encourage them to keep fixing things... which, of course, leads to the experience part of the equation. 

This may be part of the previous paragraph... however having a sense of accomplishment; which means one takes pride in what they do; probably encourages one to do it more. 

So born in mechanical/elec/hydraulic intuition... exposure... experience... a sense of accomplishment... taking pride in their work... and getting warm fuzzies from 'gettin-er-done'.  IMO all of these are traits both of, and which develop, a SOTP machinist. 

Now I would like to add a category to the discussion:  SOTP technician.  The guy/gal... that approaches a problem... and just solves it. None of the following:
Fussing
Arguing
Politics
Whining
Featherbedding
Playing the boss
Playing others
Milking
ETC...
As Michael Jordon used to say 'Just do it'.

My background was more the SOTP technician. 

I suspect the two are related in many ways.

Again, GREAT thread!


----------



## catskinner

ki4byz said:


> Creative
> If we had more people in THIS country that would create (create as a trade)we would not have lost as many jobs across the water



Yes that is so true, we have become a society that lives off of each other, the service industry. We don't produce things anymore, and we need to or we will go the way of the dinosaur.


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## Bill Gruby

We are going astray again. Let's bring it back please.

 "Billy G


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## JohnBDownunder

Bill Gruby said:


> You go to the operator


 As a textile dyer if a machine was playing up it was a given for me to go to the operator. He knew every noise and rattle in the machine and whilst he may not know the "what" he would always know it was coming from, 'the third drier drum left bearing somewhere' or wherever. That's who I sent the mechanic to talk with first then left them to it
       I'm a newbie to making swarf and my thoughts after reading the first few posts was along these lines. "Oh bother, the plans say use this and I have only this other. So, if I mod the bit to suit what I have, then  adjust the next bit to suit my mod, it should be back on track." Yeah, sometimes it doesn't but hey, I tried.
John B


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## xalky

I tend to think that some people are born with an innate mechanical ability. I believe I'm one of those. I remember being a young kid, taking things apart to see how they worked and putting them back together for kicks. 

I went on to building bicycles out of 2 or 3 junk bikes, then moved on to mini bikes and go carts, lawn mowers garden tractors then cars etc...  By the time I had graduated high school I had already rebuilt a totaled out car and rewired the entire wiring harness which had caught fire in the accident. This car had power windows, locks, seats, and everything else. I taught myself how to read wiring schematics, weld, do body work, on that car. 

I went on to college to pursue a mechanical engineering degree but found it to be too dry. So,I changed my major to manufacturing engineering which lent itself much better to what I was good at, making things work.

I worked as a manufacturing engineer right out of college, but really, I became the plant "fix it" guy, and built and rebuilt machines to fill in my time when something hadn't crashed. In the plant. There I learned all about high voltage electricity, steam fitting, hydraulics/pneumatics, electrical control circuits, relay logic, limit switches, welding and machining. I learned from the old timers, I rarely asked questions but I watched them like a hawk. 

Like someone else said, God gives us certain talents, it's up to us to develop them. The younger you are to start developing those talents, the sooner you become a master. I'm not a master of any particular discipline but I'm pretty darn good at most of the ones listed above. I can build or repair just about anything. I've only met a few people like me in my life, what sets them apart is that they're not intimidated of attempting anything.

On another note. I love to pick apart a design to see what's good design and what's a terrible design. Sometimes I'll look at something and come to the conclusion that a moron designed it, and other times I'm astounded at the brilliance of the design, and can find no fault in it. Generally speaking, the simpler the design is to accomplish a certain task, the better and more reliable it is.

My 5 cents, because it was a little longer than 2 cents worth.

Marcel


Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk


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## GA Gyro

xalky said:


> I tend to think that some people are born with an innate mechanical ability. I believe I'm one of those. I remember being a young kid, taking things apart to see how they worked and putting them back together for kicks.
> 
> I went on to building bicycles out of 2 or 3 junk bikes, then moved on to mini bikes and go carts, lawn mowers garden tractors then cars etc...  By the time I had graduated high school I had already rebuilt a totaled out car and rewired the entire wiring harness which had caught fire in the accident. This car had power windows, locks, seats, and everything else. I taught myself how to read wiring schematics, weld, do body work, on that car.
> 
> I went on to college to pursue a mechanical engineering degree but found it to be too dry. So,I changed my major to manufacturing engineering which lent itself much better to what I was good at, making things work.
> 
> I worked as a manufacturing engineer right out of college, but really, I became the plant "fix it" guy, and built and rebuilt machines to fill in my time when something hadn't crashed. In the plant. There I learned all about high voltage electricity, steam fitting, hydraulics/pneumatics, electrical control circuits, relay logic, limit switches, welding and machining. I learned from the old timers, I rarely asked questions but I watched them like a hawk.
> 
> Like someone else said, God gives us certain talents, it's up to us to develop them. The younger you are to start developing those talents, the sooner you become a master. I'm not a master of any particular discipline but I'm pretty darn good at most of the ones listed above. I can build or repair just about anything. I've only met a few people like me in my life, *what sets them apart is that they're not intimidated of attempting anything.*
> 
> My 5 cents, because it was a little longer than 2 cents worth.
> 
> Marcel
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk



I think the part about not being intimidated by machinery... whether it be mechanical, electrical, hydraulic, etc (well other than electronic)... is a significant part of this.

Sadly... the electronics controls part is the one I struggle with...


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## xalky

GA Gyro said:


> I think the part about not being intimidated by machinery... whether it be mechanical, electrical, hydraulic, etc (well other than electronic)... is a significant part of this.
> 
> Sadly... the electronics controls part is the one I struggle with...


Yeah, that's my weakness too. I can r and r electronic parts and build personal computers, but that's just putting parts together. I never really learned electronic circuits other than being able to spot a burned out capacitor. I suspect it might be the generation we were born into, I was born in the mid sixties, I was never really exposed to that stuff until the nineties. I've had some successes just cleaning electronics to get them back to life, but that's about it.

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk


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## WalterC

I use the seat of my pants for sittin' on. How do you use it for machining?


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## GA Gyro

WalterC said:


> I use the seat of my pants for sittin' on. How do you use it for machining?



Same way you and I use it to fix HVAC... <grin>

Sometimes that part of my anatomy thinks clearer than the other end... LOL

And yeah... acquired the avatar pic from the guy at the HVAC forum...


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## scicior

GA Gyro said:


> Excellent thread... Bill, THX for starting it... enjoyed the read!
> 
> <snip>
> If one enjoys fiddling with mechanical things... and gets those internal warm fuzzy feelings when they fix something and it works... <snip>


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## Keith Foor

Long version.
The Seat of the pants guy is the one that is more than a simple machinist.  He's an engineer of sorts.  He's the guy that you show a problem to that needs an electro-mechanical solution to and he ponders it for a while.  He scratches out some designs and math on a napkin at lunch and then he builds the solution, from scratch that not only addresses the problem but runs for 40 years with only minimal maintenance. 

Short version.
Master Gunsmith.
Master gunsmith is the gunsmith that you take a 100yr old firearm to that they made 10 of, by hand, without plans or drawings and he replaces and repairs the mechanics of it returning it to proper operation.  His tools are typically one of one things that anyone else would look at and have no idea what they were even for and probably scrap them.  He SEE's the mechanics in operation in his head of how it all works, fits together and the required tolerances for it to be accurate.  I know alot of guys speak of accuracy.  Consider that we measure angles in degrees.  Gunsmiths work in minutes of angle, meaning 1/60 of a degree.  To draw that out, its a 1 inch deflection at 300 feet of distance or to really make the point 10 inches in 3000 feet.

I realize that the short version is longer than the long one, but I believe it required the explanation.  
But I think the whole point of this is that anyone that can stuff a chunk of metal in a CNC lathe or mill and write 100 lines of G-Code is technically a machinist. He's a bit more than a machine operator but he's still not knowledgeable enough to create a complex machine from scratch.  
Now the reasons to have that guy around, the seat of the pants guy, is to fix problems.  The hard truth is this, a room full of guys that are experts at running their CNC machines, are still in a sense machine operators.  They may be able to product every single part of a mechanical device with their machines, but they don't necessarily have the ability to design those parts, just produce them from a print.  The seat of the pants guy can product it, see that the design is wrong on tolerance, correct it, and the part that it mates to.  In addition he will see the three other design modifications required to make the machine have a 20 yr life span instead of a 2 yr one that the original design would have created.   I guess it's coupled to aptitude.  Some folks have a knack for mechanical things, some don't.


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## planeflyer21

/\/\/\/\ I was trying to explain to a friend why he would want to be a machinist, rather than getting his gunsmith degree.  He is quite inventive and likes firearms, though he is all over the place with ideas.

Finally found a "correspondance school" that had both programs listed.  Gunsmith, $895.  Machinist, $16,875.  He looked through both programs, what they offer.  

Now he wants to be a machinist.


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## Paul in OKC

I had to laugh when I saw this, because I will often go to the young guys in the shop when an issues is going on and say, "Well, lets try my seat of the pants process and see what happens, then go from there."  Another kid used to ask, "How do you know,...Oh yeah, 35 years, right?"  I have been doing this for almost 40 years now and still love it. Love to teach young guys some of the old tricks. Some get it, some don't, some think I'm just the old guy. But when the I see the wheels turning in a young guys head about a method or suggestion, that is when it is even funner!
 Reading another post about a gunsmith, I taught st a vo-tech that had gunsmith classes. Oh my, those guys thought they were just as good as a machinist. Some very sketchy set ups and they looked at me like I was from another planet. Went round and round with a couple. They did not come into the shop area after that!


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## Keith Foor

The issue and expense of being a gunsmith is the legal aspect of it.  You about have to have a degree in firearms law in order to be a gunsmith.  There are issues with storage, transfers, documentation and interaction witb the ATF  that significantly complicate things.  The mechanical aspects of the job are a bit different as well.  A gunsmith has to also be a master craftsman of wood to do stock work as well as an accomplished smith. Many folks find that due to the draconian regulations and paper trail that is required of a gunsmith that its easier to take a different path and only work on their own firearms.  In truth, aomething as simple as assembling an AR-15 from a stripped lower for a friend requires a manufactures FFL And doing said work for someone without the required FFL can land you in a federal prison.  And if you arent aware assembling on of those rifles can be done with a 5 page instruction sheet and mostly basic hand tools.


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## catskinner

Keith Foor said:


> The issue and expense of being a gunsmith is the legal aspect of it.  You about have to have a degree in firearms law in order to be a gunsmith.  There are issues with storage, transfers, documentation and interaction witb the ATF  that significantly complicate things.  The mechanical aspects of the job are a bit different as well.  A gunsmith has to also be a master craftsman of wood to do stock work as well as an accomplished smith. Many folks find that due to the draconian regulations and paper trail that is required of a gunsmith that its easier to take a different path and only work on their own firearms.  In truth, aomething as simple as assembling an AR-15 from a stripped lower for a friend requires a manufactures FFL And doing said work for someone without the required FFL can land you in a federal prison.  And if you arent aware assembling on of those rifles can be done with a 5 page instruction sheet and mostly basic hand tools.




I gave up being a gunsmith years ago, it was no longer enjoyable with all the regulations. Secondly I found out that I am not very good at public relations with people that think they are firearms experts. My hat is off to those that still do it.


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## Bill Gruby

OK === This is the second time I have stepped in here. If you wish to discuss the Gunsmith and what is required to become one feel free to go here   http://www.hobby-machinist.com/forums/gunsmithing-firearms.31/

 Please keep this discussion to the original question. Thank You.

 "Billy G"


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## core-oil

SOTP machinists I find from the culture I was born into are born not made, Also this mechanical instinct is nurtured by being in a manufacturing culture, The old Glasgow & West of Scotland engineering towns had these guys in past times in the thousands, O.K. they moaned about the deck of cards life had given them, but they could when the chips were down , and the firms back was to the wall  rally round and many a home spun cure was pulled out of the hat, and production was soon back to normal.  The same went for for many of the everyday miracles carried out every day  production tasks as they came around  The built up knowledge was in a subliminal way passed to the younger workers who had the sense to  apply their brains and observe these old buzzards.

The same sort of manufacturing  craftsman could be found all over the world, ranging from the rest of the U.K. & further afield from Budapest to Cincinnati, & Canada etc., Sadly the change over from a "Making Culture", to a" Paper Shuffling and Financial Sector" which now hold sway, has decimated much that was beneficial to our culture .  How will the thought process which engendered such God given instinctive problem solving ever return big time if our backs are to the wall   And would future generations want to be part of such a culture?


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## Wreck™Wreck

Todays Flying by the Seat of the Pants job that was to big for the machine
1 Remove Gap
2 Install faceplate
3 Turn pilot to center 3 jaw to faceplate (on another lathe)
4 Bolt chuck to faceplate
5 Have one of the guys that run a mill make soft jaws from 2 X 3 1018 bar stock 10" long
6 Weld pads to jaws
7 Turn the toolpost so that the dovetail is on the operators side
8 I then turned a shallow pocket in the jaws at the minimum diameter that the tool would reach, chucked a piece of 9" Dia. tubing and turned the ID to set the dro X dimension.
9 Chuck a disk on the inside of the jaws to hold them whilst turning
10 Turn a 28" Dia X 3/8" deep pocket in the jaws
11 Weld a hook (I also do the welding in this shop) onto the OD of the part so that I can lift it with the hoist into the chuck, the blank is just over 200 Lb's and is plasma/laser cut 304 SS from plate
12 Chuck part and cut hook off with an abrasive disk in a die grinder
13 Turn boring bar upsidedown, run spindle in reverse to turn slightly more then 1/2 of the thickness. It is a fairly stout 2 1/2" round bar.
14 Reset the tool height because it is now upsidedown
15 Take a cut until it cleans up, dig out the 40" Mitutoyo vernier caliper, measure the OD and set the dro X axis dimension. This is where I left it today, will begin again tomorrow morning, the finished OD is 27.500 ± .015, 15 man hours of setup so far, for 1 part.
The reason that I bolted a chuck to a faceplate is that we do not have a 4 jaw large enough and the largest one does not have 2 piece jaws so I couldn't use soft jaws. The 15" 3 jaw was not meant for use on this lathe so I had to improvise. The reason that I am using a boring bar upside down is that the part is only 1" thick and the gap is 12-14" wide, reaching the part without running the carriage into the gap demanded it, the chuck on the faceplate also gets the part closer to the tool over the gap. I also pushed a live center from the tailstock against the face to make sure that it stays in the shallow jaw pocket during OD roughing.


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## Bill Gruby

WOW !!!!!!!!! Impressive set-up.

 "Billy G"


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## Wreck™Wreck

Thanks Billy, it remains to be seen if I can actually make the finished part, it has a 3/16 O-Ring groove on the face with a 24 3/16" OD, have yet to deal with getting the face groove tool close enough to the part without running into the gap, this shall be another milling machine job, making a "Tool Extension Tool" for the face tool. The time estimate is 28+ hours, this will not be nearly enough time.

As a side note, Kaiser Thin Bit grooving  tools work a charm, a bit pricey for the hobbyist I suspect. I have no affiliation with Kaiser tooling, I am just a machinist using my employers tools.


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## schor

I think of myself as a SOTPM. 

I never learned the trade (I'm a self taught computer guy). I never had much teaching of mechanical things (dad's interest was music and he couldn't hammer a nail).

I got a lathe, started using it, reading, watching videos, etc. 

Everything I did and most things I do now are by the seat of my pants. With a little help here and there from forums like this and from a good friend that is a tool and die maker.


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## REdington

Wreck™Wreck said:


> Todays Flying by the Seat of the Pants job that was to big for the machine
> 1 Remove Gap
> 2 Install faceplate
> 3 Turn pilot to center 3 jaw to faceplate (on another lathe)
> 4 Bolt chuck to faceplate
> 5 Have one of the guys that run a mill make soft jaws from 2 X 3 1018 bar stock 10" long
> 6 Weld pads to jaws
> 7 Turn the toolpost so that the dovetail is on the operators side
> 8 I then turned a shallow pocket in the jaws at the minimum diameter that the tool would reach, chucked a piece of 9" Dia. tubing and turned the ID to set the dro X dimension.
> 9 Chuck a disk on the inside of the jaws to hold them whilst turning
> 10 Turn a 28" Dia X 3/8" deep pocket in the jaws
> 11 Weld a hook (I also do the welding in this shop) onto the OD of the part so that I can lift it with the hoist into the chuck, the blank is just over 200 Lb's and is plasma/laser cut 304 SS from plate
> 12 Chuck part and cut hook off with an abrasive disk in a die grinder
> 13 Turn boring bar upsidedown, run spindle in reverse to turn slightly more then 1/2 of the thickness. It is a fairly stout 2 1/2" round bar.
> 14 Reset the tool height because it is now upsidedown
> 15 Take a cut until it cleans up, dig out the 40" Mitutoyo vernier caliper, measure the OD and set the dro X axis dimension. This is where I left it today, will begin again tomorrow morning, the finished OD is 27.500 ± .015, 15 man hours of setup so far, for 1 part.
> The reason that I bolted a chuck to a faceplate is that we do not have a 4 jaw large enough and the largest one does not have 2 piece jaws so I couldn't use soft jaws. The 15" 3 jaw was not meant for use on this lathe so I had to improvise. The reason that I am using a boring bar upside down is that the part is only 1" thick and the gap is 12-14" wide, reaching the part without running the carriage into the gap demanded it, the chuck on the faceplate also gets the part closer to the tool over the gap. I also pushed a live center from the tailstock against the face to make sure that it stays in the shallow jaw pocket during OD roughing.




 Now, that is what I think a SOTP type of person is. You did a lot of SOPT engineering JUST in the setup. 



Rodney


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## Wreck™Wreck

REdington said:


> Now, that is what I think a SOTP type of person is. You did a lot of SOPT engineering JUST in the setup.
> 
> 
> 
> Rodney


It's not actually very difficult. it is mostly planning ahead, what operation needs to be done in what order, and not getting ahead of yourself. I write in longhand on paper the order of each operation so that I do not have to back up and move the part again or change tools, I get this right about half of the time.


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## epanzella

Seat of the Pants Machinist = Makes what you need out of what you've got.
Eventually a really good one can say;
"We've done so much with so little for so long that now we can do everything with nothing...and do it fast"


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## GA Gyro

epanzella said:


> Seat of the Pants Machinist = Makes what you need out of what you've got.
> Eventually a really good one can say;
> *"We've done so much with so little for so long that now we can do everything with nothing...and do it fast"*



I try to not let too many of my customers know I have that talent... 
However IMO that is what a SOTP Machinist can do.  

And in my case... a SOTP Tchnician.


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## Bill Gruby

The newbie needs to learn that. You don't buy new stock when you have some acceptable stock left over from another job. Points  well taken.

 "Billy G"


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## epanzella

Bill Gruby said:


> The newbie needs to learn that. You don't buy new stock when you have some acceptable stock left over from another job. Points  well taken.
> "Billy G"


Young people's "go to" answer for everything seems to be  to buy something. My last 20 years in business before retiring was in partnership with my sons. (not machining but building contractors). One of my sons hated clutter and was always throwing usable scrap away. I kept telling him that I refuse to bring something to the dump on Tuesday and then  buy it again on Friday. As the head cheese he had to comply but I never really convinced him until he had his own house, kids and dog. When every penny counted he suddenly saw the light.


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## Bill Gruby

Ain't that the truth. LOL

 "Billy G"


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## Wreck™Wreck

More improvisation, drilled 1 1/4 center hole, faced with a different boring bar then made an extension on top of the compound in order to get a 5/8" shank .100 wide face grooving tool across that pesky gap, fortunately I had a BXA toolpost in my toolbox from a lathe that I used to own. The tool block on the right is from the post normally on this lathe, haven't tried this setup yet so do not know if it will chatter or not, the groove is .120 wide X .100 deep with an OD of 24+ inches.
Faced at 40 RPM's .006" per revolution, 2 passes at 50+ minutes each so it was a boring day indeed.


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## Bill Gruby

When you leave that shop it's gonna be hell around there.

"Billy G"


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## Wreck™Wreck

Bill Gruby said:


> When you leave that shop it's gonna be hell around there.
> 
> "Billy G"


I don't know about that but thanks.
Just for giggles I thought about making an offset bar to hold the small toolpost in the large toolpost just because I could and it would look absurd, sadly the Boss was in today and he may not have seen the humor in that.
He was not terribly happy with the coolant that was flying out of the machine, at 40 RPM's at 27" Dia. it was smoking the oil out of the water and stinking up the place.


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## Bill Gruby

Any time you have a job like that one everything is give and take. The boss should know that by now.

 "Billy G"


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## 'Topcraft

The only formal training that I had in the trades, (and I'm not sure that it even qualifies) was as an electrician in the Navy. When I got out, I could not find a job in the electrical field. I was told that what I was taught didn't cross over into the real world and I was devastated. After a few years of those type of job interviews I was desperate enough to take a job in a large grey iron foundry as an electrical/mechanical maintenance man. I still think that the only reason I got the job, was that not many people wanted to work there. I knew nothing about mechanics, hydraulics, ac electrical, machining or welding and fabricating. 10 years later, When I left I felt very comfortable with all those skills. Not as an expert, but as a machine repair jack of all trades. I like to think of myself as a S.O.T.P. machine repair guy. What I think  doesn't really matter, but I do know the three most important things that got me there were curiosity, aptitude, and desire. With those three traits, I feel anyone can accomplish anything. (Might take you awhile tho).



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## uncle harry

'Topcraft said:


> The only formal training that I had in the trades, (and I'm not sure that it even qualifies) was as an electrician in the Navy. When I got out, I could not find a job in the electrical field. I was told that what I was taught didn't cross over into the real world and I was devastated. After a few years of those type of job interviews I was desperate enough to take a job in a large grey iron foundry as an electrical/mechanical maintenance man. I still think that the only reason I got the job, was that not many people wanted to work there. I knew nothing about mechanics, hydraulics, ac electrical, machining or welding and fabricating. 10 years later, When I left I felt very comfortable with all those skills. Not as an expert, but as a machine repair jack of all trades. I like to think of myself as a S.O.T.P. machine repair guy. What I think  doesn't really matter, but I do know the three most important things that got me there were curiosity, aptitude, and desire. With those three traits, I feel anyone can accomplish anything. (Might take you awhile tho).
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk





'Topcraft said:


> The only formal training that I had in the trades, (and I'm not sure that it even qualifies) was as an electrician in the Navy. When I got out, I could not find a job in the electrical field. I was told that what I was taught didn't cross over into the real world and I was devastated. After a few years of those type of job interviews I was desperate enough to take a job in a large grey iron foundry as an electrical/mechanical maintenance man. I still think that the only reason I got the job, was that not many people wanted to work there. I knew nothing about mechanics, hydraulics, ac electrical, machining or welding and fabricating. 10 years later, When I left I felt very comfortable with all those skills. Not as an expert, but as a machine repair jack of all trades. I like to think of myself as a S.O.T.P. machine repair guy. What I think  doesn't really matter, but I do know the three most important things that got me there were curiosity, aptitude, and desire. With those three traits, I feel anyone can accomplish anything. (Might take you awhile tho).
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


That's pretty much how I went about it but with a short 1 year @"Marquaint" Engineering intending to be a double E.  I got some debris in my slipstick & instead pursued a career in art (commercial that is).  I was raised by a family of blacksmith types and motor heads with a large engine lathe, drill presses. welders  & a hot wrench. Later in my career I was promoted to Manager of R & D (rough & dumb). I could freely take pertinent short courses in any applicable disciplines and attend technical seminars. This caused me to be assigned  to design processes and machines for mass production of products that were sold before their time and in very tight time frames.
That's when SOTP skills are needed to avoid being in the HSOTP (hot seat of the pants). I survived.


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## atunguyd

You guys have it all wrong. 

You are simply referring to someone with "the knack"


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## 'Topcraft

atunguyd said:


> You guys have it all wrong.
> 
> You are simply referring to someone with "the knack"


LOL


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## GA Gyro

atunguyd said:


> You guys have it all wrong.
> 
> You are simply referring to someone with "the knack"



Not\w that video is funny... gonna post it at the Heating and AC forum...
Many a service tech has 'the knack'... and yeah... they are short on social skills... <grin>


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## metal man

Bill Gruby said:


> Try this one. It's head and shoulders above the rest.
> 
> "INSTINCT"
> 
> 
> "Billy G"


So true,  It's a shame my boss has none!


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## xalky

atunguyd said:


> You guys have it all wrong.
> 
> You are simply referring to someone with "the knack"


That's great. I especially liked the part about social skills, or lack thereof. I think it comes with the knack. Most people I know with the knack are usually anti social. I had to work really hard at my social skills to be "presentable" to customers. The knack is natural, the social thing takes persistent work on my part. I tend to point out people's flawed emotional state, and if I'm not careful  it'll come flying out of my mouth.  

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk


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## mike837go

As a budding machinist, amateur mechanic, adequate weldor, unrepentant tinkerer but a well-paid computer programmer, I do seat-of-the-pants work all the time.

Bill, as you described the industrial machinery repair, I can picture similar in my office. The ERROR 17 reported by the user (after it failed the same way 4 times)  usually means an array isn't big enough (too long a list?). So the quick solution is to find the declaration and make it bigger.

Not on my watch. I run the program and have the offending pointer's value displayed. A zero or negative pointer is illegal in most of my work or an outrageous value: the real problem is elsewhere.

Or, it's just too long a list. Convert the program from using an array to use temporary file.

-------------

I also noticed somebody mentioned "Not being afraid to fail". THAT is the most important life lesson ANYBODY should learn!

Many of my tinkering failures have gone to the scrapyard. I'm down to the last 12 payments on my divorce.

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I'd argue about "INSTICT" as an attribute for being capable of SOTP work. One has to be born with (God's Gift) the temperament to want to understand the full system. To enjoy how the whole thing works. To see the details and comprehend how they interact to create something beautiful...

Once one has a feel for what is "right", "smooth operation", "normal", etc. Any flaw or imbalance becomes obvious. After a few experiences with various flaws and failures, one 'just knows' what went wrong.

I'd say "INTUION" is closer to what makes a somebody a SOTP worker.


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## dave2176

Xalky, I'm not anti social, I'm just a social idiot. Something I've struggled with my whole life.
Dave


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## jpfabricator

Its not me that has the social problem................. Its everyone else! 

Sent from somewhere in East Texas Jake Parker


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## Wreck™Wreck

This did not work well at all, much chatter ensued as I had expected, not enough mass. I ended up milling an extension for the tool from bar and holding it in the large tool post, this approach worked reasonably well, not ideal however.





I did turn about 40 Lb's of this part into chips today so I have that going for me I suppose.


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## Bill C.

Wreck™Wreck said:


> This did not work well at all, much chatter ensued as I had expected, not enough mass. I ended up milling an extension for the tool from bar and holding it in the large tool post, this approach worked reasonably well, not ideal however.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I did turn about 40 Lb's of this part into chips today so I have that going for me I suppose.


What is the outside diameter of the part?  Nice extension plate you made


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## Wreck™Wreck

Bill C. said:


> What is the outside diameter of the part?  Nice extension plate you made


27.500 ± .010 is specified on the drawing, no temperature at which it will be measured is given so one must assume ISO.


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## Bill C.

Wreck™Wreck said:


> 27.500 ± .010 is specified on the drawing, no temperature at which it will be measured is given so one must assume ISO.



The last time I turn something that big were seam welder wheels in my Apprentice Training shop. We had standing orders to reface large diameter copper rings by removing the welding pits and recutting all the angles.

Thanks for the reply,


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## Wreck™Wreck

Did some redneck chip management today, facing at .050 depth at 14 RPM's and .006 feed per revolution, from 28" diameter to 5", 130 minutes per pass for 3 passes.
The chip would wrap in a tight wad around the boring bar requiring constant attention so I clamped a piece of aluminum tubing under the tool block and carefully guided the tightly coiled chip into it. The chip came off of the tool and went through the tube where I would cut it with sheet metal shears, this worked a charm for the most part.

The reason that I used a boring bar for a facing operation is that once the gap is removed one does not want to run the carriage off of the end of the ways so you have to extend the tools across the gap, the gap is 18+ inches on this lathe

The chips pretty much won the day however. The lathe work on this one part is done after slightly over 25 hours of my time including set up, removing the gap, changing chucks, making and turning soft jaws Etc.


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## Wreck™Wreck

Put the gap back in today, it took a good deal of cleaning.

The big part was drilled and tapped on a mill then skidded and wrapped for delivery on Monday, hopefully it will work and not end up back here as we never want to see it again, I am not optimistic however.


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## intjonmiller

Bill Gruby said:


> Think of it like this:
> 
> You are called to a repair. Is the first person you talk to the supervisor? No it's not, what does he know. How about the set up person? Again no, they only know the repair is out of their job description. You go to the operator, why you ask, because he or she was the last one to see things in motion. You ask them what happened. Now you listen to them. They say there was a plinking sound then a loud bang and the machine stopped dead. You ask where in general the plinking, not the bang came from. They say from the gear end of the machine. You concentrate your efforts there. You see nothing so you go deeper into the machine. You take the first gear off and low and behold a tooth or two is missing from the gear behind it. Some machinists would stop here and change the gear to get the machine running again. OK done deal we have the machine running again. Everyone is happy.
> 
> Wrong ---The seat of the pants machinist know something else broke the gear. What was it. Instinct takes over here. Let the machine run or go deeper. He listens, something does not sound correct. He has heard this before. He remembers what it was and instinctively goes there. Found it he says. We fix this and we are good to go.
> 
> The broken gear was the end of the problem, not the root of it. Get to the root and the problem now has the correct solution. Instinct is not taught. It's either there or it's not. Brooks you can come work for me anytime.
> 
> The title Seat of the Pants Machinist", is earned. Your peers give it to you. They know the difference. Too many give titles to themselves.
> 
> "Billy G"


I haven't read this entire thread yet, but I wanted to add my take on this elsewhere. I have this sort of instinct in business. I have gone to work for a company and within 2-3 days recognized their precise financial situation, the chief constraint to greater profits, and an outline of a solution. In one particular example my solution required a couple weeks of meetings, coordination, and programming from a team of six people in different departments. Only purchase was a software license upgrade to allow it to run on a web server instead of just a desktop. It was under $100. When we were done product turnaround time went from an unpredictable 1-6 months down to a consistent 48 hours. Saved almost a quarter million dollars in direct labor annually. No one could compete, so the marketing value was incalculable. 

After I got their attention with that solution I mentioned my concern that they were running out of money and about to lay people off. The two owners looked horrified, like I was some sort of spy. How could I know such things that hadn't been made public? I explained the handful of unmistakable symptoms that were clear to anyone who knew what to look for. I explained that even a single layoff would have a devastating effect. I explained that I had an alternative that would not only avoid the layoffs but also result in entire new channels of revenue. 

They responded that they had already signed with a venture capitalist who insisted on layoffs as part of his plan. Sixty of the hundred employees were cut in the next week, myself included. They did it by rolling back according to hire date "to be fair". Nothing to do with competence or contribution. So stupid. 

The one owner had a favorite, moronic saying: "I don't want problem finders, I want solution builders." He's the kind of guy who would always stop at fixing the broken gear (if he had a clue what gears were...), without the slightest thought about what broke the gear. 

You cannot actually solve a problem without being certain you've found the actual problem. 

I know you'll be shocked to hear that almost a decade later that company still hasn't even made the slightest move into the HUGE market I had identified for them. They didn't even think to hear my idea before "letting me go."


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## pdentrem

I had the best compliment the other day from the production manager. When/if I leave the company, he will be the guy right behind me. He knows that a major cog in the machine will be gone and who knows what will happen next. 

Like Bill says instinct can be critical, some have it and some don't. I am always busy between improving processes, running machines, fixing them, design work and pre planning. I try to train but they can not keep up, especially when the shop is running at 100%. It is tough to set aside time and resources to teach on the job.
Pierre


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## ezduzit

Perhaps each of us has a slightly different idea of what seat of the pants means.

My first career was spent on the drawing board, in engineering design. It was my great fortune to work with true master machinists--no, _magicians_ who could build anything I could dream up. My second career, in boat building, had _me_ building whatever I could dream up. Now, at 72, I don't know how much more seat of the pants I'm going to get, but I am a novice machinist, just starting out.  The photos show my first fabrication I built, to my own design, (a sailboat boom end fitting) on my ancient Index Super 55 mill with 12" Troyke rotary table.


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## The Liberal Arts Garage

Odd, That's much of what I can  claim for myself. Joiner at Trumpy's  Yacht
Yard, restorer of high end European cars, (The Liberal Arts Garage),  H-  A -
Rebuilder of old machine tools, Etc. I  admire your work.  BLJHB.


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## Str8jacket

Good thread. Almost a taboo subject for me  ha ha! I find the cultural differences between Australia and America amusing. In Australia we historically don't like to openly celebrate our people who would be SOTPM as you would say. Exceptional / smart etc  people are often derided,(sports persons excluded) not in a entirely mean way but if you have an ability to do things others can't do or find difficult or just blatantly can not comprehend they will often pick on you for your ability. Tall poppy syndrome I think it is referred to. 
I actually find it difficult to think of my abilities without just seeing my short comings. Coming out and saying that I'm great at something is almost alien!  
Anyway it is good too see people who are able to do great things and share them with others. The American way of being able to stand up and say I'm good at this also helps I think in sharing your knowledge with others.


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