# Milling Machine dilema



## uberdag (Feb 18, 2019)

There is a huge auction in my area with many many cnc mills as well as tooling and other doo dads  Several are Haas tm-1 and a mini haas, as well as alot of doosan,  I was considering getting either a grizzly 704 or 463 as i live close to springfield and dont have to pay shipping instead of a PM25.  Anyhow is it worth thinking about getting one of these commercial machines if they are cheap enough... though i do just have a garage shop the tm1 and mini will fit, and have no experience with milling or cnc yet.  I currently make knives and am fairly tech and computer savvy.


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## JimDawson (Feb 18, 2019)

How much power do you have available?  The mini is 15HP, and the TM-1 is 7.5HP  The TM-1 will run on single phase, not sure about the mini.  I think we are running our TM-2 on a 50 amp breaker, single phase.  

Nothing wrong with starting out with a CNC.  That's quite a step up from a G704, not even in the same universe.


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## P. Waller (Feb 19, 2019)

A Haas TM1 is a small machine. it will easily fit in a 1 car garage that doesn't have a car in it.

This is a TM1 where I work, I believe that the control box is larger then the table (-:
The Haas conversational software is easy to use, the control will likely have a good number of unused buttons that control features that a simple machine does not have, the buttons are there but they simply do nothing.

I should imagine that this would be an excellent machine for a hobby shop.
Also an automatic tool changer will assure that you will never use a manual machine again.


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## uberdag (Feb 19, 2019)

how well do these break down, into smaller chunks to move.  Or can it be picked up with a fork lift whole and moved about?


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## JimDawson (Feb 19, 2019)

uberdag said:


> how well do these break down, into smaller chunks to move.  Or can it be picked up with a fork lift whole and moved about?



A correction to my earlier post, I checked the specs on the mini, it also has a 7.5 HP motor.

They don't break down, not needed to move.

Here is our TM-2P going on the trailer, about 5500 LBS.  Most of what you see there is sheet metal.  I think the TM-1 is about 4800 LBS, easily moved with a forklift in one piece.  8 foot forks are ideal, 6 foot will work, we used fork extensions on our forklift.


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## uberdag (Feb 21, 2019)

So last night i was doing measuring in the garage and comparing to layout diagrams on Haas site and realized my ceiling in my garage is only 8 foot and the diagram looks like it needs 9 foot.  Any ways around this, or should i just look for a bridgeport style knee mill.  I am probably biting off more than i can chew anyhow.  Just seems a waste to spend alot on small hobby size mills when for same money or a little bit more you can get industrial used equipment.

thanks for reading and helping


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## WarrenP (Feb 21, 2019)

Cut a hole in the ceiling?  : )    One difference is if you get the smaller mill it is new isnt it? With the old industrial you dont know for sure if it has any or will have any problems. Also, will you actually need the bigger mill? I agree with the notion of getting the biggest you can so it will handle most anything you need, but in reality sometimes you will never need it. I guess only you will know if you need the bigger or not.


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## JimDawson (Feb 21, 2019)

That 9 foot is just above the Z axis for clearance of the cable guide.  As I recall, the height of the hard parts is <8ft.  I'll measure mine later.

IMHO, the ideal home shop machine is one of the manual/CNC Bridgeport or clone machines if you can find one. That gives you the best of both worlds.  If you can find one with a dead controller, it is still useful as a manual machine, and you can do a control retrofit at your convenience. I paid $1000 for mine, then did a retrofit a couple years later.  The hard work is already done for you, it already has ball screws on the axes, and is set up as a CNC.

EDIT  The highest fixed point on the Haas is 88 inches.  That's the top of the braking resistors for the spindle drive.  It is removable for moving the machine.  The highest point is the cable tube, ~ 9 ft with the spindle at the top.  Would fit nicely between the rafters.


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## Cadillac (Feb 21, 2019)

What’s your garage door height? That’s the killer.


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## uberdag (Feb 21, 2019)

Well crap, dont know the garage door height but its better than 7 feet. Now i am thinking i should just look at getting a knee mill type with cnc capabilities... saw a couple with 2 axis cnc? can you add the third, retrofit to more modern controls or not needed?

Also i watched two more auctions today, and the VFD's went for way way more than they did in the first auction i watched where they went for the price of bridgeports.  Anyhow now that i have paid attention and tracked some auctions, i am truly confused on prices and worth of items.  I am looking on bidspotter, craigslist and I live in NW arkansas and think a driving range of 10 hours...  

thanks again


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## JimDawson (Feb 21, 2019)

Welcome to the world of auctions   I have seen stuff go for crazy prices.  There is no rhyme nor reason to what stuff goes for.

Yes you can add the Z axis, there are a few different ways of doing it.  Mine started out life as 2 axis and today it is a 4 axis. The controls retrofit is at your discretion.  If the original control is working and you are happy with it, then no need to change.


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## Cadillac (Feb 21, 2019)

Last auction I did two weeks ago they had about a dozen bridge ports they went from 650 to 850. Six do all surface grinders two sold for 300 bucks other four nobody bid. Other recent ones saw Bridgeport going for 2500-3k just jhead with 1/2-1hp motors. When I actually went and saw them when picking stuff up they were beat, no chrome ways and no visible flaking left. It's a crap shoot location is one. One thing buying a cnc off a auction site unseen may be alittle iffe. Most likely the company put it through its paces 8hrs a day if not more and road it to the ground with the business hence the auction. At least that's what I've seen with 3/4 of the auction I've been too. Building falling apart leaks all over the place and equipment rode hard till its last day operating and left for auction. Acouple were different but rare. Good luck!


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## john.k (Feb 21, 2019)

I spent 40 years buying machinery at auctions...........only the brave or foolhardy buy sight unseen.........always inspect before you buy,and if you dont know the machine ,take someone who does to the inspection........Ive seen plenty of bargains,and plenty of people waste money on duds......CNCs have their own risks ,unless you are a machine tech and can troubleshoot and repair yourself,because pro help is going to be $100 /hr.+....and the "its no longer supported/need upgrades"


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## uberdag (Feb 22, 2019)

All right, it seems the money burning a whole in my pocket is just gonna have to cool it.

anyhow here is the link to the first day of the auction, if anyone wants to come and show me what i should be looking for.  I live about an hour north of the auction and got a spare room you can crash in









						Looper Auction & Realty, Inc. | Day 1 of 2 - Complete Liquidation of ABB Motors & Mechanical, Inc. (Formerly Baldor Electric) - Clarksville, Ar. Motor Plant Facility lots
					

Bid Live at Looper Auction & Realty, Inc.'s Day 1 of 2 - Complete Liquidation of ABB Motors & Mechanical, Inc. (Formerly Baldor Electric) - Clarksville, Ar. Motor Plant Facility auction




					www.bidspotter.com


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## uberdag (Feb 22, 2019)

well here are some of those cnc bridgeports... just outside chicago, and thanks again all









						Premier Asset Recovery Group | 40 HIGH END CNC MACHINE TOOLS,  CNC Exchange Consignment Sale – Multiple Locations lots
					

Bid Live at Premier Asset Recovery Group's 40 HIGH END CNC MACHINE TOOLS,  CNC Exchange Consignment Sale – Multiple Locations auction




					www.bidspotter.com


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## Cadillac (Feb 22, 2019)

I saw the Chicago one they will go for good money. It's a consignment auction they want a good going rate. Their is still a lot of time on that first one check prices the week or day before and let us know.


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## middle.road (Feb 24, 2019)

That's on heckofan Auction.
Lot #146 of the Looper auction, looks to me to be a Rockwell MILL - not a drill press - hehe

One the second auction, the ProtoTraks have no bids?!
Auction around here a couple of years ago the one in it went for over 10K.


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## uberdag (Feb 27, 2019)

welp bid on one of them from the video they made ... lot 59


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## uberdag (Feb 27, 2019)

Welp the one i bid on went for 5750, bids on others went for around 3500 to 5k... 

back to the search


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## Cadillac (Feb 27, 2019)

Yeah they can jump up quick. Sometimes I wonder what are they seeing that I’m not? Their out there just takes some searching little luck and some Benjamin’s!


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## uberdag (Mar 1, 2019)

havent seen much info on acer mills in forums? found this in north carolina









						2012 ACER FVS-3VKH-54 3 hp CNC Mill, s/n 12050232, w/ ACU-RITE X-Y CNC MillPwr Control BLDG #18
					

Lot 363 at Day 1 - Assets Surplus to the Ongoing Operations of Static Control Components, Inc. - a Global Leader in the Manufacture of High Quality Replace from Perfection Industrial Sales.




					www.bidspotter.com


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## JimDawson (Mar 1, 2019)

uberdag said:


> havent seen much info on acer mills in forums? found this in north carolina
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Those are nice mills.  One of the top of the line imports.


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## Chipper5783 (Mar 1, 2019)

s





uberdag said:


> I am probably biting off more than i can chew anyhow.  Just seems a waste to spend alot on small hobby size mills when for same money or a little bit more you can get industrial used equipment.
> 
> Anyhow is it worth thinking about getting one of these commercial machines if they are cheap enough.



I hope so - that is the route I have decided to take.  I picked up a Bridgeport VMC 1000 (which means 1000 mm of X-travel), it is a '98 vintage 4 axis machine, #40 taper, 20 tool ATC, full cabinet, 15HP - 6000rpm spindle, flood coolant from several directions, air padded spindle seal, air blow of the tools prior to change, automated way lube, chip conveyor, came with 40 assorted tools (6 collet chucks, 2 drill chucks, MT adapters, and many end mill adapters of various sizes) and a couple big old lathe chucks that had been modified for work holding on the table.  I got to see it run - which I suppose is a good start (but not actually work it - so there could have been hidden issues).  $6000 CAD

Was it worth it?  To uberdag's point - it is a lot of capability much cheaper than a hobby size CNC machine.  Now that I have gone through the machine, have it running - everything looks fine with it.  That this has a BT40 spindle (seems a lot of shops are going to CAT 40) and has an older and less familiar controller (DX-32 - which is still G code) makes the commercial operators avoid it.   Perhaps the space / power req / weight scares off the hobby guys?  The space could be an issue - however I know plenty of folks that enjoy working on cars that have home shops that could handle the size (about the size of a mini-van).  The power was pretty straight forward - I have a residential 100A/240V single phase service - I needed to upsize my phase converter and used the excuse that I ought to also upgrade the entire system.  The point being that a pretty ordinary residential service can work for the smaller size industrial machines.  The weight & moving was written into the purchase - using a professional machinery moving company.  It was not cheap, but they did a great job - the only pain was signing the cheque.

I'd assume that the hobby machines are great and will do all the things that it is claimed that they will do (since I have no experience that says that they don't).  However, to get similar features - just less capacity in all those features, would have been 2 - 4x the price.  I've been doing the hobby machining for 35 years and recognize that a larger work envelop (with in reason) opens up more options than it closes for being "too large".  I'm sure I'll wish at times that I had a higher speed spindle, but I'm sure I'll oft times be glad that I've got a drive with a decent bottom end (sort of everything is a trade off).

So, uber - don't be scared off by a used industrial machine.  I think you recognize there is a greater component of "buyer beware" (however that is still somewhat the case with a brand new machine - they can have troubles too).  So while shopping for that CNC, look at both the small hobby size mills and the used industrial machines.


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## whitmore (Mar 2, 2019)

uberdag said:


> So last night i was doing measuring ...my ceiling in my garage is only 8 foot and the diagram looks like it needs 9 foot.



If you are so  lucky that the garage has a dropped ceiling, just pop some tiles out...
otherwise, the strongest possibility would be to lower the floor.   It isn't uncommon for machine
tools to rest on a fresh pad of concrete-over-bedrock instead of a floppy old floor slab over
mystery space.   If there's no way to adjust the column down for the move, the doorway
and an approach ramp will complicate the tasks.


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## uberdag (Mar 2, 2019)

Well found something in Kansas City









						CNC MILL
					

I have an Acer mill with a prototrak MX3 control it works well and I have some accessories with it . the price is $5,000.00 cash Firm. Call or text 816-804-8nine2seven



					kansascity.craigslist.org
				




It's close enough to drive to, both are 3axis bought new by person in 90's


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## uberdag (Mar 4, 2019)

So any tips comments on the acer mll in Kansas city?  also how hard would it be to update to a centroid controller?  I work on computers so the wiring and computer build wouldnt bother me.  Will i be able to use the older servo motors and other components.  Main motor is 3 phase would get a vfd, but looks like you can wire it through the board. at least on the acorn.  Tryng to get an idea on a budget to update machine.

Anyone got anything they want more info on in Clarksville auction... going down tommorow for inspection day

thanks again


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## JimDawson (Mar 4, 2019)

uberdag said:


> So any tips comments on the acer mll in Kansas city?  also how hard would it be to update to a centroid controller?  I work on computers so the wiring and computer build wouldnt bother me.



Centroid is pretty adaptable, they have a number of options.



> Will i be able to use the older servo motors and other components.



Probably



> Main motor is 3 phase would get a vfd, but looks like you can wire it through the board. at least on the acorn.



I think all of the Centroid products have that capability.


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## uberdag (Mar 13, 2019)

going friday to look at the mills in kansas city?  
what should i look for,? 
what questions should i ask? 
What is a good price is this worth at great to ok condition? I got enough for the asking price but not alot more and I have Zero doodads for mill.

again thanks for all the help and advice


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## roadie33 (Mar 14, 2019)

If you're coming up to KC check out Craigslist for Milling Machines. Here are some in just one place.









						Milling machines for sale Bridgeport series 1 and 2
					

9x42 Bridgeport with DRO and Power feed everything fully functional 4500$ 10x54 Alliant with DRO and Power feed everything fully functional 4500$ 10x50 Lagun FTV 2 with DRO and Power feed everything...



					kansascity.craigslist.org


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## uberdag (Mar 18, 2019)

I went by the shop, to look at the acer, but then he said the acer is more of a 2.5 cnc as the z axis moves by itself.  He also had a sharp with the 3 axis cnc moving together... so looking at that now.
the machine has; power draw bar, coolant mist bucket?, anilam cnc controls, assorted r8 collets, end mills, big kurt vice not sure size.

he had the sytem powered and running the servors in a pattern, but didnt have the motor running but said he had changed the bearings just a few years ago and the spindle sounded good when he took it out of production.  He replaced the machine with a shiny new acer 3xis cnc machine. 

So for 5800 asking price seems like a good deal to me or am i expected to dicker on machine tools like furniture?

also found a local rigger to get it into garage for $400 once i bring it down on a trailer.

thanks again


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