# Rat Rod Ricipe



## eugene13 (Dec 14, 2016)

What do you get when you mix a 1968 4.2 liter Jaguar engine with a 1967 Jaguar independent rear end, add to a 20 something year old home made frame, stir in an aftermarket front end and radiator, (that's my neighbor Bill, it's his car) and top it off with a 1928 Model T Roadster body?  The mock-up is done, all the measurements are taken and it's time to start on the motor mounts.


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## wawoodman (Dec 14, 2016)

Remember the Johnny Cash song, "One Piece at a Time"?

"When we went to put in the bolts, all the holes was gone."


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## TomS (Dec 14, 2016)

Using the Jag rear and engine is certainly a different, but interesting, approach.  Most rat rods are put together with American made parts.  I like it!

Tom S.


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## ch2co (Dec 14, 2016)

That, sir has all the makings of one fine mean looking machine. Keep the pictures a coming. I like it. 

CHuck the grumpy old guy


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## LsSix (Dec 15, 2016)

Nice, I have a project in the back of my mind reminiscent of the old pre war 4 cyl rods using an old A series motor and drivetrain.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk


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## eugene13 (Dec 15, 2016)

TomS said:


> Using the Jag rear and engine is certainly a different, but interesting, approach.  Most rat rods are put together with American made parts.  I like it!
> 
> Tom S.


Thanks Tom, t
	

		
			
		

		
	





	

		
			
		

		
	
 he true soul of a rat rod is a car put together with whatever you have, Bill collects Jaguar  (pronounced jag- you-are if you're British) automobiles and has had these parts for a long time.  The rear end came from a stolen XKE that was wrecked on the Native American Reservation south of here, he had the frame hanging in his garage for 15 years, the car will tell a story... but I digress.  Here's a picture of the motor mounts, KISS, the upper motor mount before and after me and my die grinder, and installed.  I love working with this old British Iron, they measure in inches.


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## TomS (Dec 15, 2016)

eugene13 said:


> Thanks Tom, t
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I love old cars!  Have a couple myself.  I hear what you are saying about using what you have.  It's just that most people have a junked out Chevy, or Ford, or Dodge in their backyard.  Nice job on the motor mounts.  They look good. 

Tom S.


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## ch2co (Dec 15, 2016)

"they measure in inches"

Yeah, and then they use Whitworth 
Go figure


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## eugene13 (Dec 17, 2016)

This is the Mid-mount, Bill wanted to use the OEM isolater so I had to build an adapter, I'm basically putting a round peg in a square hole.  This replaces a similar structure in the cowl of all Jags, it looks "klunky" but form follows function, the second picture is bending the part, we slipped the adapter on before making the second bend, now  it's up on the jig for some surgery.


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## eugene13 (Dec 18, 2016)

I would like to apologise  to the people who responded to my thread, that I failed to reply, I'm not being rude, I'm new to the internet forum thing and I don't know the etiquette. To woodsman; I like Johnny cash, I just don't know much about his music, and my shop is filling up with Bill's stuff, one piece at a time.  To Chuck the grumpy guy; more pics coming, and in all my working life I've never run into anything with Whitworth threads, I have run int BSSP, British Standard Straight Pipe, and it's always caused me a headache, usually in the form of a lost fill or drain plug on a European gear reducer.  To LsSix; My ratrod is powered by a 4 cylinder Ford Pinto motor,size really dosn't matter as long as it's fun.  To Tom; thanks for the compliment, I've alwasys tried to keep the things as simple as possible, just like me.


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## eugene13 (Dec 20, 2016)

Here's a picture of the "cage", I don't know what you call it in Jaguarese, but it's the inteface between the rear end and the unibody and It performs three functions: a mounting point for the third member, a mounting for the coil-over shocks and it reinforces the pivot points of the lower control arms. I have to duplicate this in order for everything to work correctly.  The welder cometh, my son Bryan, when he isn't here working on race cars or hot rods he's taking his kids to their sports or he's working at the power house, we spend a lot of quality time together.  The third member connection, check out the fish plates on the mitered joints, the pivot point reinforcement, and a shot of the chassis on our jig.


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## GA Gyro (Dec 21, 2016)

eugene13 said:


> Thanks Tom, t
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Pardon me....
However where does one find that large bushing for the motor mounts...
Been looking for one of those for a while... the local parts shops are not much help.

THX in advance!!


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## eugene13 (Dec 25, 2016)

www.speedwaymotors.com Part number 720-9314  Merry Christmas


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## GA Gyro (Dec 27, 2016)

eugene13 said:


> www.speedwaymotors.com Part number 720-9314  Merry Christmas



THX, appreciate it!

And a Happy New Year to you!


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## eugene13 (Jan 3, 2017)

Welded up the radius rod mounts, shock absorber mounts and the reinforcement for the lower control arm pivots, the rear end if finished and now we can turn our attention to the front end.  The bumper is from an XKE and the Lucas fog light is from a swap meet, Bill said that Joseph Lucas was a pioneer in automotive lighting and electrical systems and his detractors called him the Prince of Darkness, I always thought that was Ozzie Osbourne.  Bill needed some stand-offs for his headlight buckets, the ends are spherical.  Having no way to turn a sphere I cut a 25 degree taper and attacked them with a file and used Prussian blue to check the fit.  Not finished but close enough to show it off, the grille came as a rough sand casting, 40 hours of polishing and it's starting to shine.  The transmission mount is next so we had to install the engine.  Last is a view out the back door of my shop, we broke a snowfall record for December, the bright pink spots are the neighbor kids playing on snow piles.


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## TomS (Jan 3, 2017)

I've seen lot's of rat rods.  Yours looks like a show car.  Keep the pictures coming.

Tom S.


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## extropic (Jan 4, 2017)

The build is much to clean to fit my understanding of "Rat Rod".

I propose "Cat Car" instead.

Cats are known to regularly triumph over rats. Isn't the Jaguar a cat?

Either way, it sure looks like a great project.


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## FOMOGO (Jan 4, 2017)

Looking great. The front radius rod support is pretty long. have you considered gusseting it? A triangulated plate would be standard fare, but a tubular strut would probably look cleaner and serve the same purpose. it might be fine as is, and I'm no engineer, just thought I'd throw it out there. Really like what you've come up with so far. Cheers, Mike


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## brino (Jan 4, 2017)

Hi @eugene13 , I just stumbled across this thread, read every word and admired every picture and had to say.......Fantastic!

Thanks for posting this build!
Please keep us updated as it progresses, I can't wait to see more.

Thanks again,
-brino


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## eugene13 (Jan 4, 2017)

Thanks for the compliments and the ideas, extropic is close, Bill calls it a Cat Rod, and yes, we'll put some tubing gussets on the Radius rod brackets.  The parts finally came from Great Britan. (that's what is says on the package Made In Great Britan) and I'm starting on the transmission mount.


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## eugene13 (Jan 7, 2017)

Here's the parts kit I have to work with and here are some labels from the parts bag, one says "Origin Great Britain" and the other says "Made in UK".  I'm a bit confused and want to be politically correct.  What do our cousins across the Atlantic call themselves; Great British or United Kingdomites ?  Bill showed me a picture of the transmission mount in one of his Jaguar books, for the spring holder I cut through three sides of a piece of 1" X 3" rectangular tubing, a piece of 3"pipe, sized to accept the part will drop in the opening and contain everything, the pin that connects the transmission to the chassis sets the pre-load on the spring and the orange bushing prevents over travel, the whole assembly is retained with one of the hood pins from our racecar.  Did you know that racecar spelled backwards is racecar?  Bryan fitted and installed the tubing gusset on the rear radius rod mounts.  Two pieces of material from my "small pieces of steel bucket" yielded two body  mounts so I only needed to make four more, now that the body is on we can begin mounting the steering and brakes.


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## eugene13 (Jan 10, 2017)

Bill, first time behind the wheel, look at that grin, "Boy, what a view of that engine!"  Big revision on the transmission mount, I was thinking swing pedals and Bill and Bryan were thinking under floor pedals.  It dosn't look as clean, but I like the way it protect the master cylinders.


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## eugene13 (Jan 19, 2017)

Since the beginning of this project Bill has expressed concern for the position on the gear shift lever in relation to the seat, you can see that it sits about even with the pedals.  To remedy this he has been working on a device to move the shifter back, copying a similar device on a Volvo transmission.  Both transmissions are rail shifters but that's where the similarity ends, the Volvo only has one rail, and the Jag has three.  In the first iteration he used a spherical bearing for the X (fore and aft) and Y (right to left) motion, it worked for the X but didn't give enough roll to the Y. The photo is of the second iteration, He's still using the bearing but has built a guide for the Y motion, and it works!  It's a little stiff but with a some fine tuning should perform to his expectations.  Bill also rebuilt and installed the rear brake calipers and Bryan is working on the plumbing, after installing the battery box and the steering, which uses a reversed Corvair steering box.  I didn't build the steering box mount, if you look at all the crazy angles on that thing you'll understand why.


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## eugene13 (Jan 24, 2017)

Having nothing better to do Bill and I fitted up the carbs, it's an aftermarket part and the bolt holes need to be massaged with a file, one of the carbs was stuck shut but with a heat gun, some wd40 and gentle  persuasion we were able to get it freed up.  I think something got spilled into it, soda pop or maybe snoose juice.  The carbs are made in Spain.  The seals for the transmission showed up, the bell housing holds the front seal and is attached to the transmission with 8 bolts, a little over-kill I think, You have to be careful and not let let the input shaft slip out of the housing, if you do , there are a dozen or so roller bearings that will fall out and the tranny will need dis assembled, hence the bolt and washers.  Here's the new spring on the left and stock spring on the right, the new spring is and inch shorter and dosen't fit the spring cups on the shock so I had to make some adapters out of 3" schedule 80 pipe, the next challenge is figuring out how to safely compress the spring enough to mount it on the shock.


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## hermetic (Jan 26, 2017)

Excellent work on the Jag special, I used to race them on grass circuits in the uk, using mainly 3.4 and 3.8 engines, and the rear end you are using. I always called the rear transmission housing "the cage" as well! If you are familiar with jags you will probably already know this, but just in case you don't, leave yourself a loose access panel in the rear to get to the top of the rear disc brake assembly, as changing the handbrake pads is a bugger! 
Phil, Yorkshire, UK


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## eugene13 (Jan 26, 2017)

Thanks for the advice, Bill is the Jag expert, I just build 'em.


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## eugene13 (Jan 27, 2017)

Here's the fixture I built to compress the springs far enough to install the retaining rings.  The disc on the left will replace the part on the right, and along with some other things, will eliminate the most common cause of oil leaks on the inline 6 cylinder Jags, the Oil Pump Pressure Relief Valve Line to Pan.  Bill wants me to build 2 more for his other cars.


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## Pmma-Granville (Jan 28, 2017)

I really like what you've done!
I'm in England, home of the jag,
There's old jags sitting on driveways or abandoned in "car graveyards" not quite a scrap yard, a lot of people here seem to collect old cars, store them on a bit of land and then they just sit there and rot. So it's nice to see something different being done with a lovely old bit of British motor!!


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## eugene13 (Jan 28, 2017)

I'm really glad you UK guys have noticed this thread, I was sure you would like it.  As to the old cars, it's the same here; people lose interest in a car and just let it set, but they won't sell it either, the only benefit is to the mice.  Bill and Bryan finished up the steering, the big plate for the flange bearing is so we can remove the body, and we discovered that we need to add some reinforcement of the cowl.  One of the cool things about this build is it allows an absolutely flat floor, even so it's going to be tight for two seats.


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## eugene13 (Feb 3, 2017)

Here's how Bryan decided to reinforce the cowl using square tubing and 16 Ga. sheet, funny how this old rusty metal smells like urine when you weld on it.  We needed a clamp to attach the parking brake cable to the chassis, so I made one.  Bryan is contemplating the instillation of the parking brake lever, sure looks empty without the nose and tht big 'ol 6 cylinder sitting there, you can see the remote oil filter and it's hoses, when we got the engine set in the chassis where we wanted it, the oil filter on the block hit the frame.  Bill can change his oil and the filter and not have to move the drain pan.  Bill's headers came in, all stainless steel and shiny, he wanted to build a lakes pipe but steering box was  in the way, besides, they gave him 10% off.


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## brino (Feb 3, 2017)

eugene13 said:


> funny how this old rusty metal smells like urine when you weld on it.



I've never smelled jaguar urine! 

But seriously thanks for sharing and updating this thread.
I for one am enjoying it.
Nice looking pipes.

-brino

I wish I could get my vehicle in my shop. I spent about 4 hours today laying on cardboard in the snow replacing a leaky brake line. Had to quit when my hands were too cold to feel what I was doing.......


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## eugene13 (Feb 4, 2017)

Probably just the neighbor's tom cat.


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## eugene13 (Feb 9, 2017)

We've had a bugger (hermetic's  word) of a time finding a drive shaft, Bryan finally located one in a junkyard in Alabama, $75 for the part, $89 to ship it here.   The flanges fit but the spline on the slip yoke is seized up.  Since we are going to install new U-joints we took it apart, I use an abrasive cutting disc to slice off the side of the bearing caps so we don't have to push them back through the bore. We applied some heat and a few blows with a soft hammer and when it didn't move we decided to soak it in diesel fuel for a few days, then we applied a puller and some more heat, it moved a little.  Bill soaked it in 20% muratic acid for four hours and we again applied the puller and some heat and it finally came apart.  There was very little grease in it and I think what was there dried out and turned to glue, Bill agrees, he says the shaft could be as old as 50 years, and there's no telling how long it's been sitting in the junkyard.  After cleaning the splines up we still had a rough spot, I mixed up some SAE 140 gear oil and Comet cleanser and brushed it onto the splines, in a few minutes the rough spot was gone and it's shiny new.


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## ch2co (Feb 9, 2017)

Eugene said "some SAE 140 gear oil and Comet cleanser" 
Thats some wild concoction there.  Is this commonly used? I never heard of it and I'm an OLD man.
Grumpy too
Quite a job! Looking good.  I've fought a few old drive shafts in my time, but never one this cantankerous.

CHuck the grumpy old guy


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## JimDawson (Feb 9, 2017)

eugene13 said:


> I mixed up some SAE 140 gear oil and Comet cleanser and brushed it onto the splines, in a few minutes the rough spot was gone and it's shiny new.



Sounds like a good fine lapping compound


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## dave2176 (Feb 9, 2017)

eugene13 said:


> I mixed up some SAE 140 gear oil and Comet cleanser and brushed it onto the splines, in a few minutes the rough spot was gone and it's shiny new.


I was taught to use Bon Ami for these things. It works very well too.


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## hermetic (Feb 10, 2017)

"We've had a bugger (hermetic's word) of a time finding a drive shaft" LOLS! I had loads of those from Mk11 and S types, ran an S type 1966 as a road car for a couple of years, lovely car, with very forgiving handling! On one of my race cars I took out the drive shaft and coupled the gearbox direct to the differential with just a hardy spicer UJ, made up from the ones at either end of the driveshaft.  and sat astride the gearbox with a remote shifter on the left hand side. Loads of power, but a bit of a handfull to drive..........................won races though. Later on I found out why it was a handfull to drive when watching some slow motion film of me racing. I had converted the steering on the Jag front end from steering box to rack and pinion, and as it bounced round a corner, you could see the front wheels toeing in and out as the suspension went up and down! Needless to say it was torn to peices that winter and rebuilt wider, lower, and with a double wishbone front end robbed from a Triumph Vitesse.


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## eugene13 (Feb 11, 2017)

I would have used Bon Ami if I'd had some, that's the first thing Bill suggested.  I've heard of people sprinkling it into the carb while the engine is running to seat the rings, probably in the Model T days and I'm not willing to test the myth.  The back ordered front seal for the transmission finally showed up so we were able to get the engine back in, while Bill was bolting up all we un-bolted I was busy making a spacer for the drive shaft, the flanges have a rabbet fit and bolt pattern is rectangular, I'm surprised how close the shaft came to fitting, and real glad we didn't have to shorten it. I wonder what it would cost to ship one from the UK, speaking of which, Bill thinks you UK guys should start an environmental movement called SAVE THE JAGUAR, there's gotta be a joke in there somewhere.  Our welder finally got back from his skiing vacation and is in the process of fitting up the floor.  We're now looking for a speedometer drive including gear and plug that goes into the transmission.  Thanks to all you guys for watching.


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## eugene13 (Mar 6, 2017)

The floor is installed and a bottle of Blue Shield is almost empty.   Bill is installing the doors, they're from a different body and require a little massaging to get them to fit properly.  Bill wants a roll bar but he requires the body to be removable so the roll bar must be removable also, these mounts will be welded to the frame, the 1 3/4" X .120"  tubing will slip over the 1 1/2" X .120" pins, and be held in place with lynch pins.  We use a simple ratchet bender and are usually able to hold the dimensions to within 1/16".  Just for fun I thought you guys might like to see a picture of where I used to work,  that's about 4 million horsepower at full load.  this was taken last Thursday as we were leaving the mine with 4.83 tons of coal in the trailer behind us.


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## brino (Mar 6, 2017)

eugene13 said:


> We use a simple ratchet bender and are usually able to hold the dimensions to within 1/16".



hey @uegene13 can you provide any detail on this?
Is it a commercial unit?, maybe with "upgrades"
how is it anchored?(I've been considering a 2" trailer hitch receiver embedded in the concrete floor for multiple benders and a tire changer)



eugene13 said:


> Just for fun I thought you guys might like to see a picture of where I used to work, that's about 4 million horsepower at full load. this was taken last Thursday as we were leaving the mine with 4.83 tons of coal in the trailer behind us.



Either would power one helluva shop!!!!

-brino


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## eugene13 (Mar 7, 2017)

Thanks brino, our bender is made by Pro Tools, https://pro-tools.com.  When we built our shop we embedded a 12" X 1" steel plate in the floor.  Four 1/2" bolts attach the bender and we use shims to level it up.  We store the bender in a corner of the shop and plug the bolt holes with set screws when not in use.  It only takes about 5 minuits to set it up, but it's heavy and it takes two people .  I think using a reciever hitch would work fine but you would need some way to fine tune the level.  If you do buy a bender be advised: You will ruin a lot of tubing before you get it entirely figured out.  As to the power plants, we are the second largest coal fired generating plants west of the Mississippi, and one of the cleanest.


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## eugene13 (Mar 10, 2017)

The crankshaft and water pump pulleys finally showed up and now I can begin to work on the alternator mount.  The crank pulley is from a 1950s era Jag and the water pump pulley is a much later high performance part for a V 12.  Why?  Because we need single groove pulleys to match the alternator.  Since we are mixing and matching parts the big challenge is the belt alignment, using a SWAG (scientific wild ass guess) I determined that the water pump pulley will need to move forward about 3/8" , but first I have to do something about the water pump shaft.  As you can see it has two pilot diameters, one for the pulley and one for the fan, the solution was a simple sleeve that we pressed on and retained with Locktite.  We installed the pulley and with much measuring and another SWAG determined the finished thickness of the spacer and got it right the first time!  Now we can build the alternator mount, again, the alignment is the critical thing.  After cutting, drilling and welding we mocked up the parts on the engine and as I held the alternator up where it needed to go Bill scribed a line and the rest was welding and finishing.  Here's how it looks with the radiator and headers installed, and the last shot is of the mufflers, Bill built the mount out of a used shock absorber rod and some materiel from my small pieces of steel bucket.  It's gonna be loud, the glass packs are for an XKE, and they're straight through.


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## eugene13 (Mar 14, 2017)

Working on the floor means installing the throttle pedal and linkage.  Since the three carbs are actuated from a common shaft Bill decided to extend the shaft through the firewall and connect it ro the throttle cable inside the cabin, I'm wondering what engine torque over is going to do but Bill isn't concerned.  Which one of the turn buckles would you want on the alternator belt tension?  The one at the top looks more "ratty" but the one on the bottom is what we went with.  Building it was an excuse for buying a 5/16" X 24 left hand tap.  It was the first time I'd dealt with MSC since the takeover, no complaints here.


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## eugene13 (Mar 20, 2017)

Before a Cat Rod can run, it has to fly.  With the floor finished and the roll bar and fuel tank installed there is no reason to keep it on the jig.  Bill went to a motorcycle show in Idaho, that's his 1956 650 Triumph in the bed of his truck, and Bryan and I decided to give him a surprise.  We still have a lot to do and only three months until Colstrip Days, I've always scoffed at those hot rod shows and their deadlines but now we have one.  Will we make it  Stay tuned and see.


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## eugene13 (Apr 7, 2017)

Sorry that I haven't posted for awhile, I had to buy a new computer as the old Windows won't be supported after April sometime, and then I had to figure out how to use it.  I suppose I could go into a rant about technology, planned obsolescence, and wasting natural resources, but it won't make any difference, the money is spent, and not on parts, tooling or materials.  We are at a point in the build where we need to do the small mundane jobs and the milestones are not as big or are reached as often.  Bill thought his shifter needed a gate so he built one out of some left over tubing.  Bryan and I got the roll bar bracing completed and installed the fuel tank and electric fuel pump, according to Bill this is very similar to the placement of the stock Jaguar components.  The last pic is of the coolant recovery bottle, It's made from a Soda Stream CO2 tank.  I had to remove the Schrader valve and tap 1/8 NPT, I also had to solder in a siphon tube to reach the bottom of the bottle.


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## eugene13 (Apr 18, 2017)

Bill's Brooklands windshields came in, the mounts wouldn't accommodate the tight curve on the Model T cowl so we made a couple of aluminum stand-offs. I drilled them and cut the flutes on the mill, and Bill finished them with with a file.  He wanted a trailer hitch so he could tow one of his motorcycles to a show, we only had the rear bar to attach it to and we didn't want to block the view of the rear end, I hope it's adequate. The seat belts were the next item after the seats, this is the tool we use when we need to make a penetration into the tubing, it's mostly used in the fire sprinkler instillation business but works well for us.  The Pouncing Jaguar was a Christmas present from Bill's wife, she picked it up at a flea market about 13 years ago, I'll have a picture of the installed windshields next time I post.


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## eugene13 (May 2, 2017)

Here's the Brooklands wind screens, not sure how well they'll work, but they sure are snazzy.  Bill's wife, Mary, first time sitting in the new ride, I think she must be a very patient woman.  Notice the turn signal switch, we had to put it on the right side of the wheel for entry/egress clearance.  Bryan cut out the dash panel and I laid out the holes for the instruments, it's installed and the wiring is about 90% finished.  I made a dip stick for the gas tank.  We put fuel in the gas tank and coolant in the radiator and tried to fire it up today, it wants to run but we discovered a problem with the so-called high performance starter, the shaft is too long and the pinion is fully engaged in the ring gear and won't dis-engage, and it makes one hell of a racket when it runs.  We ordered a rebuilt starter but the closest one is in San Diego, 5 days out, but we need to hear it run.  Tomorrow I'm going to jack up one of the rear wheels, wrap a rope around it and give it a spin, I watched my dad do that 60 some years ago when his pickup had a dead battery.


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## FOMOGO (May 2, 2017)

Looking great. Could you space the starter out from the block to correct the gear engagement? Mike


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## GarageGuy (May 3, 2017)

If you would like your fiberglass track nose to match the rest of the car, here is a great idea:  I have a friend in TN that wanted a rusty fiberglass T-bucket, so he mixed iron filings with gray primer and painted the fiberglass with it.  He sanded down the result a little to expose the iron, but it didn't rust to his satisfaction until he washed it down with ammonia.  Then he got the "perfect" rust he was looking for.

Your project looks great!  I love your creative engineering and all of the details you've added.  

GG


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## eugene13 (May 3, 2017)

FOMOGO said:


> Looking great. Could you space the starter out from the block to correct the gear engagement? Mike


The starter shaft is 5/16" too long, a bit much for spacers I think.  I could build a new mounting plate, but the rebuilt stock starter is on the way so it's a moot point.  Thanks to GarageGuy for the painting idea, I will pass it along to Bill.  I tried my dad's rope trick this afternoon with no success, I guess his old truck had a lot less compression than a freshly rebuilt Jaguar engine does.  Bill said my effort was noble and entertaining.


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## eugene13 (May 8, 2017)

THE CAT ROD LIVES!!!!!!!!  But not without complications. The rebuilt starter arrived today but the mounting flange ears were not counter bored to accept the tubular dowel pins on the bell housing.  We could have just removed the dowels but that was too easy, the trick was how to hold the starter in the mill.  As you can see we used an angle plate, two vee blocks and a ratchet strap attached to eye bolts in the tee slots and two hold downs pressing the bottom into the vee blocks. I picked up the holes using a 5/16 drill and counter bored with a 1/2 " end mill.  The starter fits and works perfectly, and the engine fired right up, a little tweaking on the carbs and it was idling.  Those Weber carbs have adjustments than a Chiropractor.  All systems were go Bill took her around the block.  It might bee a little lean as the stainless steel headers discolored right away.  We'l look at the plugs in the morning after it's cooled off.


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## brino (May 8, 2017)

Excellent.
Thanks for sharing this!
-brino


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