# Removing the tool in the milling machine



## Alberto-sp (Nov 14, 2022)

Hello. I have a cheap milling machine. Is a Weiss wm25L. It is a copy of the precision mathews PM-25VM but smaller. 

The question is that to removing the tool I lock the spindle and lossen the drawbar half a turn and tap the draw bar with a nylon hammer. But It is still hard to lossen the draw bar. I don´t know if the reason is I have to tap the drawbar with the hammer harder or it is normal to keep hard to loosen it? My english is not very good but I think I make a small mess here haha

Thabk you

best regards


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## Winegrower (Nov 14, 2022)

On the Bridgeport, I have to loosen the drawbar more than that, a few turns at least, so the drawbar spins freely.    Possibly a half turn does not really disengage the drawbar enough.


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## pontiac428 (Nov 14, 2022)

Tapping on the drawbar to unstick the taper is a universal custom. Loosen it a turn or two, tap it with a soft mallet, unthread by hand and drop the tool free.  It should be easy to remove the drawbar, I suggest doing it for a cleaning and inspection.  If the threads are not perfect, clean and polish them up.  That will ensure your tool changes are smooth.


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## Manual Mac (Nov 14, 2022)

Alberto, your English is fine.


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## benmychree (Nov 14, 2022)

Really no need to use a soft hammer if the hex of the drawbar has a chamfer on it so that it does not burr up from striking it.


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## Chewy (Nov 15, 2022)

I have the PM 30.  Loosen about two turns,  Press up with your hand on tooling.  Tap down with small brass hammer.  It will take a couple of times to determine how much down force is needed. It's not much.


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## GeneT45 (Nov 15, 2022)

I use a 2lb lead sinker to 'tap' the top of the drawbar, which I loosen probably 3-4 full turns.  

GsT


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## hman (Nov 15, 2022)

I used a hose clamp to attach a chunk of aluminum  to my drawbar wrench.  The aluminum is soft enough to not damage the head of the drawbar bolt.  The weight of the wrench  gives it enough heft to allow a good, solid whack.


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## tq60 (Nov 15, 2022)

An 8 Oz hammer is all you need, you loosen with wrench then spin it a few turns then a gentle tap, very little effort.

We found a lead hammer at an estate sale, it was ugly but now lives on the mill table.

Smacks the draw bar as well as seating work or adjusting anything else.

Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk


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## markba633csi (Nov 15, 2022)

Hi Alberto!  Try a little light oil on your drawbar threads 
-Marco


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## homebrewed (Nov 16, 2022)

What spindle type is your mill -- R8 or MT?  If it has an MT style taper it's important to not over-tighten the drawbar.  If you do it can take a pretty good whack to loosen it.  I know this from experience - we had a little Sherline desktop mill at work and one of my co-workers cranked the drawbar down really good when he installed a drill chuck.  As a result it became very difficult to extract the chuck.


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## Alberto-sp (Nov 16, 2022)

Thanks for your answers. I´ll try all this weekend and i´ll tell you kno the result.

The spindle is MT.


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## Janderso (Nov 16, 2022)

markba633csi said:


> Hi Alberto!  Try a little light oil on your drawbar threads
> -Marco


+1,
I think the manual on my mill says to add five drops of way oil to the draw bar threads each week.


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## homebrewed (Nov 16, 2022)

I have seen comments regarding lubricating oil w/regard to MT style tool holders, as something to avoid in order to keep the holder from spinning or losing its grip in the taper.

What's the consensus here?  My mill has an R8 spindle so my question is more of an "inquiring minds want to know" thing.


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## Alberto-sp (Nov 18, 2022)

mmmm I have tried and it seems that maybe I tight too much the tool. And the mill is very cheap, 1400$ so the quality it isn´t the best


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## hman (Nov 18, 2022)

homebrewed said:


> I have seen comments regarding lubricating oil w/regard to MT style tool holders, as something to avoid in order to keep the holder from spinning or losing its grip in the taper.
> 
> What's the consensus here?  My mill has an R8 spindle so my question is more of an "inquiring minds want to know" thing.


AFAIK, there's a small peg-like feature in the mill spindle that engages the groove in the R8 collet and keeps it from spinning.  On the other hand, I've seen a few posts on the forum where mill owners removed the peg.  YMMV.  I removed the peg in my mill spindle and haven't had any trouble.  No opinion with regard to MT3 spindles.


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## homebrewed (Nov 18, 2022)

hman said:


> AFAIK, there's a small peg-like feature in the mill spindle that engages the groove in the R8 collet and keeps it from spinning.  On the other hand, I've seen a few posts on the forum where mill owners removed the peg.  YMMV.  I removed the peg in my mill spindle and haven't had any trouble.  No opinion with regard to MT3 spindles.


There are some different situations that have a bearing on the issue.  From what I've learned, MT style tapers are designed to be self-holding in some, but not all, situations.  For instance, my tailstock quill has an MT2 taper.  Tooling like drill chucks and dead/live centers are installed by smacking them into the taper.  No drawbar needed.  I have never had one spin under load.  Many drill press chucks are installed the same way.  They are fine when used  to drill holes but if someone applies a lot of side-load (like trying to use the drill press as a mill), the alternating side load can work the chuck loose -- with subsequent "problematic" results.

On the other hand, I have a set of 5C collets designed to fit into the MT3 taper of my mini lathe.  They come with a drawbar, which can be pulled in with enough force that it can be a tussle to get them to release.  But they aren't going to be worked loose if you're using them to mill something installed on your cross slide.

I've seen reports of folks removing the stop in a mill's R8-style spindle without having a problem.  From personal experience I know that R8 tapers can "grab" somewhat, but the grip isn't nearly as strong as that produced by an MT style taper.  Simply because it always is pretty easy to release tool holders from my R8 spindle.  I wouldn't use an R8 style toolholder without a drawbar, even if it did happen to stay in place; but it certainly is possible that an R8 taper with a drawbar would work OK without that stop....under most conditions.  I don't know what conditions might be required to cause problems in that situation:  but I tend to be on the conservative side when it comes to modifying things on my machines that _might_ cause problems, while leaving them in place only imposes a small penalty.  If any.  I really don't want any tool holders to spin in my mill's spindle, seems like cheap insurance to me......


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## jwmelvin (Nov 19, 2022)

The pin (radial set screw) in an R8 spindle is for a couple things: to stop the collet spinning before the taper engages, and to consistently locate the collet’s rotation. I removed mine, as many do, because I found it more annoying than helpful. It does not support torque of an installed collet. And I would never use an R8 without a draw bar; I believe the taper angle is not self locking.


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## Harry Knutz (Dec 28, 2022)

Drawbar Wrench









			https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/09505561


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## slow-poke (Dec 28, 2022)

I have an old LC-30 (MT3 taper), and it requires a few good blows to come loose, perhaps I'm over torquing the drawbar?


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## pontiac428 (Dec 28, 2022)

slow-poke said:


> I have an old LC-30 (MT3 taper), and it requires a few good blows to come loose, perhaps I'm over torquing the drawbar?


Maybe it just needs cleanup.  Tapping the drawbar to unseat an oil-film bond, yes.  A good couple cracks on it, no.  I'm betting it's just time for a little spindle TLC with an india stone followed by a solvent washout.  Go over all your tapered tool holders, too.  Take the high spots off the edges of the knicks and clean clean clean never stop cleaning everything before and after.


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## ErichKeane (Dec 28, 2022)

I actually just use my mill vise handle to loosen the drawbar, its the right hex, and I can use the side of it to knock it free.


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## slow-poke (Dec 29, 2022)

pontiac428 said:


> Maybe it just needs cleanup.  Tapping the drawbar to unseat an oil-film bond, yes.  A good couple cracks on it, no.  I'm betting it's just time for a little spindle TLC with an india stone followed by a solvent washout.  Go over all your tapered tool holders, too.  Take the high spots off the edges of the knicks and clean clean clean never stop cleaning everything before and after.


I have never used an "India" stone, I will give it a try, what colour should I order?


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## OTmachine (Dec 29, 2022)

My Rockwell drawbar wrench, (R8)


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## pontiac428 (Dec 29, 2022)

slow-poke said:


> I have never used an "India" stone, I will give it a try, what colour should I order?


"India" is orange aluminum oxide.  It's great for hand deburring steel.  I find the half-round to be very useful in the machine shop, the flat side for flat surfaces and the curved side for inside surfaces.  Usually people think of bench stones for sharpening knives by hand, but during my time as a button monkey I learned that a little scrap of stone deburring between fixtures was the key to .001 parts.  Now I've got sticks of India stone in every cup, tray, and drawer all over the shop, just like those little scraps of emory cloth that accrue around the shop, always handy for a little whizz when needed.  Stones give you much flatter surfaces than a wad of emory between your fingers, and leaves a finer finish.






						India AO Half Round File
					

Offering both a round and a flat surface, the Norton India AO Half Round File, is made for imparting a fine finish on precision machine parts, tools and




					www.nortonabrasives.com


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## wayback machine (Dec 29, 2022)

MT tooling that's been in the spindle for a long time can sometimes be a real problem to remove - Especially if the last operator got a little over enthusiastic tightening the drawbar.
You may find that you need quite a bit of force to unseat it - More than just a light tap......
Try running the mill at high speed for a while - It may warm up the spindle a little, and make the job easier, maybe.


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## Toolmaker51 (Dec 29, 2022)

benmychree said:


> Really no need to use a soft hammer if the hex of the drawbar has a chamfer on it so that it does not burr up from striking it.


The 'chamfer' is ideal when nearly hemispheric: enters a box end or socket wrench easily & centers  hit disengaging taper. 
IM(not so)HO, savvy turret mill users like a long pattern parallel offset double box end wrench, of 3/4" x 7/8". 
Drawbar, ram & rotation nuts, nod & swivel nuts, table clamping hardware, vise hex, and perfect lightweight urge for the collet; *all in one.* 
Even better would ratchet at both ends that flip over to reverse. Haven't seen the right long double end yet, wouldn't hesitate to heat, bend and quench one.


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## Toolmaker51 (Dec 29, 2022)

pontiac428 said:


> Stones give you much flatter surfaces than a wad of emory between your fingers, and leaves a finer finish.


_Clear makin's of a Toolmaker right there...._


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## Toolmaker51 (Dec 29, 2022)

If a R8 spins after drawing up, a bit of oil isn't at fault, the pin key is sheared off.
R8 is self-releasing only when _clean_ of chips or dirt, and not sprung from wrong size tool. They're +.001/- .002 toolholders not workholders. _ Some_ collets aren't so picky, such as 5C, typical of stubby body with proportionally short bore.
    Collets Rockwell C 40+; a fine wirewheel won't do anything wrong to taper. At least every once in a while ( I do it every time) swab out the _spindle taper _and give her a wet finger of light oil periodically.
    The slots in any collet act as induction fans, driving stuff up  spindle bore; brass, aluminum, plastic, iron most of all; surprising how much El Toro poopoo is going up there.
Then it sticks to the drawbar you oil, and runs down into the threads.
Then, pulling the bar out, wondering why the threads look rolled over and broken.
   Not quite done yet. Can't think of any drawbar without one or pair of thrust washers, (not washer face of the hex). Those must be clean, flat and treated likewise with a bit of lube. Good ones are O-ringed to drawbar, sealing off crap falling from  overhead.
Now, I have a truck to unload, guess is at least 1200 pounds if not more. Then a trailer of unknown total but tongue weight flattens dolly tires.....
See you guys in a couple days.


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## EJ's Repair & Machine (Dec 29, 2022)

After one of the nylon faces broke up on my hammer, I made a brass face as a replacement, works dandy, and yes, at least two turns out before striking seems to do the releasing nicely.


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