# Looking for 1/4-24 threaded rod



## mwebster51 (Feb 22, 2022)

Hi guys, I am looking for a couple of 24" long 1/4-24 threaded rods made of O1 tool steel. (the material needs to be tougher than mild steel  since there will be some wear/pressure on the threads) Can anyone give me a source for this or be willing to make me a couple for a fee? Thanks


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## Musky_Hunter (Feb 22, 2022)

mwebster51 said:


> Hi guys, I am looking for a couple of 24" long 1/4-24 threaded rods made of O1 tool steel. (the material needs to be tougher than mild steel  since there will be some wear/pressure on the threads) Can anyone give me a source for this or be willing to make me a couple for a fee? Thanks


I made something like this out of 3/8 for a guy but it was not made of tool steel.  I don't have any way to anneal the tool steel then harden it back.  I would be afraid of warping something that long and small diameter.   Otherwise I could help you out.


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## mwebster51 (Feb 22, 2022)

Thanks for your reply... let me see what other responses I get. I have also asked a local machinist if he can do it... he hasn't gotten back to me. The threaded rods will eventually end up in smaller sections say less than 5 inches. I planned to cut off and clean up lengths as I needed them.


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## matthewsx (Feb 22, 2022)

If the design requires threaded portions that will have wear areas it may be advisable to review the design.

Can you share pictures or a better description of what it's for and why a non-standard thread is required?

John


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## mwebster51 (Feb 22, 2022)

The rod will be used to replace worn vertical posts for 100 year old Union hand planes (the X series) this is what it looks like in a refurbed plane


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## matthewsx (Feb 22, 2022)

Beautiful work, can you single point what you need as it comes up? I find it hard to believe that'll have enough wear that you'll need to worry....

John


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## Musky_Hunter (Feb 22, 2022)

mwebster51 said:


> Thanks for your reply... let me see what other responses I get. I have also asked a local machinist if he can do it... he hasn't gotten back to me. The threaded rods will eventually end up in smaller sections say less than 5 inches. I planned to cut off and clean up lengths as I needed them.


Shorter sections would fit in my oven.  I am limited to 14X14X8 but I still think it would warp some.  Being that you need smaller sections and it's not being used for high speed rotation a few thou maybe acceptable to you.  I have some O1 rod that size.  I might play around with it this weekend and see how it turns out with a 10" or so section.


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## Janderso (Feb 22, 2022)

How about 4140ht. It’s pre hardened and is easy to turn on the lathe with hss.
A follow rest is needed though.


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## Janderso (Feb 22, 2022)

Or,
McMaster has threaded rod in grade 8.


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## mwebster51 (Feb 22, 2022)

matthewsx said:


> Beautiful work, can you single point what you need as it comes up? I find it hard to believe that'll have enough wear that you'll need to worry....
> 
> John


Not sure what you mean by "single point". Do you mean ask/purchase each one as needed. As far as wear. II am just reacting to what was said on a video of the planes by the new owner of Union Mfg Co. He commented that he tended to see a lot of wear in the vertical post threads with the old X Unions that he has seen over the years. The arm that is lifted and dropped by adjusting the nuts is extending and retracting the iron/blade. If the screw cap is tight it could take a fair amount of force to move.  Logically one should loosen the screw but... my planes that I refurb are going to others. I am not a machinist so I can't really argue whether the rod needs to be harder than mild steel...


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## mwebster51 (Feb 22, 2022)

Janderso said:


> Or,
> McMaster has threaded rod in grade 8.


To my knowledge not 1/4-24 thread though. That is a very uncommon thread


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## matthewsx (Feb 22, 2022)

mwebster51 said:


> Not sure what you mean by "single point". Do you mean ask/purchase each one as needed. As far as wear. II am just reacting to what was said on a video of the planes by the new owner of Union Mfg Co. He commented that he tended to see a lot of wear in the vertical post threads with the old X Unions that he has seen over the years. The arm that is lifted and dropped by adjusting the nuts is extending and retracting the iron/blade. If the screw cap is tight it could take a fair amount of force to move.  Logically one should loosen the screw but... my planes that I refurb are going to others. I am not a machinist so I can't really argue whether the rod needs to be harder than mild steel...


I meant if you have a lathe and can set it up for 1/4-24 threading could you make the parts that way? Obviously if you don't have a lathe that won't be possible until you go out and get one  

Just a guess, any worn parts on hand planes are probably from days gone by. If you sold one and somebody actually wore it out to the point where it needed replacement you could easily crank out a new one on your trusty metal lathe....

See where I'm going there.

You could also try asking this same question in our "can you make something for me" area.









						CAN YOU MAKE SOMETHING FOR ME?
					

You need a part or some tooling. You can't or don't want to make it. Maybe someone here can do it for you.




					www.hobby-machinist.com
				




But, getting a lathe and learning how to thread will ultimately be much more satisfying.

John


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## mwebster51 (Feb 22, 2022)

Musky_Hunter said:


> Shorter sections would fit in my oven.  I am limited to 14X14X8 but I still think it would warp some.  Being that you need smaller sections and it's not being used for high speed rotation a few thou maybe acceptable to you.  I have some O1 rod that size.  I might play around with it this weekend and see how it turns out with a 10" or so section.


Thanks, I imagine some gentile "minor" warp would be acceptable (preferably not perceptible in a 2-3" section)... I am not a machinist but have tried to hand thread rods a few inches long and always end up with waves which are not ideal. The post on the plane pictured was made at Union as a replacement rod... it was a quick and dirty job not really intended for resale. You may notice that there was a lot of chip out in the threads, which was unfortunate.


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## mwebster51 (Feb 22, 2022)

matthewsx said:


> I meant if you have a lathe and can set it up for 1/4-24 threading could you make the parts that way? Obviously if you don't have a lathe that won't be possible until you go out and get one
> 
> Just a guess, any worn parts on hand planes are probably from days gone by. If you sold one and somebody actually wore it out to the point where it needed replacement you could easily crank out a new one on your trusty metal lathe....
> 
> ...


Yes I suppose I should consider getting a small lathe.... At this point I have no experience in that world and it is a bit of a jump


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## woodchucker (Feb 22, 2022)

a slight warp would be acceptable. 
What size is the finished size, because no way would I want to turn 24", the part would move away from the tooling in the middle, especially being that hard.

Those do appear to be 2"-3" as your saying.
So why do they need to be cut in 24".
I would cut it in 4" sections so I can hold it, and thread the 2-3"s, then part it off.  That's much more doable and cheaper to do than to try to do one long section.

How many shafts do you need?  And do they really need to be hardened, I would think that O1 , 1144, 4140ht would do the trick. O1 in an unhardened state is pretty hard.


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## MikeInOr (Feb 22, 2022)

Have you considered a drill rod and a quality HSS 1/4-24 die?

I would consider one of the dies that you can tweak with a set screw so you can get the tension on your thumb nuts perfect for your application.


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## woodchucker (Feb 22, 2022)

MikeInOr said:


> Have you considered a drill rod and a quality HSS 1/4-24 die?
> 
> I would consider one of the dies that you can tweak with a set screw so you can get the tension on your thumb nuts perfect for your application.


I would not think a HSS die would last long...  And drill rod is generally O1, so no diff in what is being said.


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## mwebster51 (Feb 22, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> a slight warp would be acceptable.
> What size is the finished size, because no way would I want to turn 24", the part would move away from the tooling in the middle, especially being that hard.
> 
> Those do appear to be 2"-3" as your saying.
> ...


I would need to check on the longest length from Union.  (I will ask and see if I get a response) I don't need 24". I hadn't considered the difficulty that would be the case for a small shop. I assumed it would be cheaper than making a bunch of shorts. The more common threads one often finds seemed to be in those longer lengths. I was just going to cut off as needed. I refurbish these planes for others... I don't know how many I will need depends on how many are sent to me. These planes are not that common. I am guessing 10-15 would last me for a year or two. I have done probably four X planes in the last 6 months. Most of my work is with pre-war Stanleys.  I think you are right about not hardening. I agree O1 is pretty hard. I am not familiar with the other steels 1144 and 4140ht, again I am a woodworker/plane refurber not a machinist.


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## mwebster51 (Feb 22, 2022)

MikeInOr said:


> Have you considered a drill rod and a quality HSS 1/4-24 die?
> 
> I would consider one of the dies that you can tweak with a set screw so you can get the tension on your thumb nuts perfect for your application.


I agree with woodchucker's reply. I have worn out a few HSS dies on O1


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## woodchucker (Feb 22, 2022)

mwebster51 said:


> I would need to check on the longest length from Union.  (I will ask and see if I get a response) I don't need 24". I hadn't considered the difficulty that would be the case for a small shop. I assumed it would be cheaper than making a bunch of shorts. The more common threads one often finds seemed to be in those longer lengths. I was just going to cut off as needed. I refurbish these planes for others... I don't know how many I will need depends on how many are sent to me. These planes are not that common. I am guessing 10-15 would last me for a year or two. I have done probably four X planes in the last 6 months. Most of my work is with pre-war Stanleys.  I think you are right about not hardening. I agree O1 is pretty hard. I am not familiar with the other steels 1144 and 4140ht, again I am a woodworker/plane refurber not a machinist.


I am a WW too, and there are many here that are as well.

Union is back in business? Is that what you are saying? They made some very nice tools in the day. Not just WW, but metal as well. I have some of each.


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## mwebster51 (Feb 22, 2022)

Yes Rob Porter has restarted the company. His web site is https://www.unionmfgco.com/


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## woodchucker (Feb 22, 2022)

you also would need to send a nut to whomever decides to make them.
The 1/4 -24 is not an available size  1/4-20 and 1/4 -28 yes.. but just to make sure it works.  so one of the brass nuts would need to go to the machinist.


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## tq60 (Feb 22, 2022)

12-24 is common size and may fit.

Have you tried a well stocked hardware store?



Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk


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## woodchucker (Feb 22, 2022)

tq60 said:


> 12-24 is common size and may fit.
> 
> Have you tried a well stocked hardware store?
> 
> ...


12-24 is not 1/4 24..


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## mwebster51 (Feb 22, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> you also would need to send a nut to whomever decides to make them.
> The 1/4 -24 is not an available size  1/4-20 and 1/4 -28 yes.. but just to make sure it works.  so one of the brass nuts would need to go to the machinist.


got it!


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## mwebster51 (Feb 22, 2022)

tq60 said:


> 12-24 is common size and may fit.
> 
> Have you tried a well stocked hardware store?
> 
> ...


Yes ... what woodchucker said ... I really need to use the correct thread ... thanks


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## woodchucker (Feb 22, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> 12-24 is not 1/4 24..


And in searching for 1/4 - 24, I just discovered it's available. My machinists handbook does not list it, nor any of my other sources. So I am confused.



			https://www.lowes.com/pd/Hillman-1-4-in-24-x-1-2-in-Phillips-Slotted-Combination-Drive-Machine-Screws-5-Count/3035893
		


These I believe are for CNC creation of a 24TPI screw in some unknown size, *I don't think they cut* 1/4-24


			https://www.mscdirect.com/browse/tn/?searchterm=1%2F4+-+24&hdrsrh=true&rd=k


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## woodchucker (Feb 22, 2022)

I believe those 1/4 -24 at lowes are mis-marked. I think they are 12-24..


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## mwebster51 (Feb 22, 2022)

I ordered some from Lowes and they have the item mislabeled. They invoiced me for a 14 -24 and sent me 14-20s... total disaster...


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## mwebster51 (Feb 22, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> And in searching for 1/4 - 24, I just discovered it's available. My machinists handbook does not list it, nor any of my other sources. So I am confused.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I mean the sent 1/4 20s


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## homebrewed (Feb 22, 2022)

Victornet.com has 1/4-24 HSS dies.  They also have 1/4-24 HSS taps.  They are on their special-pitch dies and taps web pages.


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## mwebster51 (Feb 22, 2022)

homebrewed said:


> Victornet.com has 1/4-24 HSS dies.  They also have 1/4-24 HSS taps.  They are on their special-pitch dies and taps web pages.


I have a couple of 1/4-24 dies from them. Thanks... I just have not had good luck hand threading 3" of O1 tool steel... rough on the die and for me the end result is often wavy


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## homebrewed (Feb 22, 2022)

homebrewed said:


> Victornet.com has 1/4-24 HSS dies.  They also have 1/4-24 HSS taps.  They are on their special-pitch dies and taps web pages.


Be warned though:  Victor is reeeeely slow when it comes to shipping.  At least when shipping coast to coast.


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## mwebster51 (Feb 22, 2022)

homebrewed said:


> Be warned though:  Victor is reeeeely slow when it comes to shipping.  At least when shipping coast to coast.


Yes, they have also been backordered on some of these usual threads for over a year... they just started getting some in recently


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## homebrewed (Feb 22, 2022)

mwebster51 said:


> I have a couple of 1/4-24 dies from them. Thanks... I just have not had good luck hand threading 3" of O1 tool steel... rough on the die and for me the end result is often wavy


The problem might be inconsistencies in hand-turning the die.  If you have a drill press it might be possible to chuck up a die holder to keep the die better lined up.  Sort of the equivalent of a tap guide.


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## mwebster51 (Feb 22, 2022)

homebrewed said:


> The problem might be inconsistencies in hand-turning the die.  If you have a drill press it might be possible to chuck up a die holder to keep the die better lined up.  Sort of the equivalent of a tap guide.


Hmmm... not sure how comfortable I am with that... I don't mind paying for someone to make the posts if I can find a source at a reasonable price


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## Janderso (Feb 22, 2022)

mwebster51 said:


> To my knowledge not 1/4-24 thread though. That is a very uncommon thread


So sorry,
I found 1/4 - 28. Oops









						McMaster-Carr
					

McMaster-Carr is the complete source for your plant with over 595,000 products. 98% of products ordered ship from stock and deliver same or next day.




					www.mcmaster.com


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## homebrewed (Feb 22, 2022)

I have read about folks starting the threads on their lathe then finishing the job by taking a pass with a die.  The main idea is to provide a path for the die to follow.

Getting yourself a small lathe will open up opportunities to make other parts needed to restore old woodworking tools.  But you may find the entry fee, so to speak, a bit daunting.  If you go bargain-hunting on sites like ebay you could well end up with a machine that needs a lot of work to get it working right, plus support is usually nonexistent.  Machines sold by vendors like Little Machine Shop, Grizzly and Micro-Mark will be more expensive but they're much better when it comes to supporting what they sell.  I bought mine from Micro-Mark and have been happy with the decision.


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## mwebster51 (Feb 22, 2022)

Janderso said:


> So sorry,
> I found 1/4 - 28. Oops
> 
> 
> ...


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## Dan Krager (Feb 22, 2022)

Single point means cutting the threads on a lathe with a single point 60°cutter. It is not trivial in a long skinny application like this because the rod would have to be supported very near the point of cutting, i.e. a follower is going to be needed. Single point cutting requires several passes to complete the thread making this a very time consuming method.

It doesn't make sense that the post would need to be so much harder than the nuts that run on it. Brass is very soft by comparison, even if "hard" brass.  I've handled hand planes for over 60 years and have yet to encounter one with worn out threads. I have encountered rust and corrosion under the nuts, but hardness will not "fix" that. Even mild steel will be harder than the cast iron it screws into at the bottom.  I would rather ruin the post than bugger the relatively delicate threads in the sole.  

Are there any examples of "worn" posts available?  I would want to confirm his conclusion to be sure it is indeed worn and not corroded. Part of that show should include the nuts that wore it out...
DanK


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## Dan Krager (Feb 22, 2022)

The original post indicated 1/4"-24.  Your "find" you said was 1/4"-28.  Not compatible sizes.... ?????
DanK


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## mwebster51 (Feb 22, 2022)

Dan Krager said:


> Single point means cutting the threads on a lathe with a single point 60°cutter. It is not trivial in a long skinny application like this because the rod would have to be supported very near the point of cutting, i.e. a follower is going to be needed. Single point cutting requires several passes to complete the thread making this a very time consuming method.
> 
> It doesn't make sense that the post would need to be so much harder than the nuts that run on it. Brass is very soft by comparison, even if "hard" brass.  I've handled hand planes for over 60 years and have yet to encounter one with worn out threads. I have encountered rust and corrosion under the nuts, but hardness will not "fix" that. Even mild steel will be harder than the cast iron it screws into at the bottom.  I would rather ruin the post than bugger the relatively delicate threads in the sole.
> 
> ...


Point taken, thanks for the single point explanation


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## mwebster51 (Feb 22, 2022)

Dan Krager said:


> The original post indicated 1/4"-24.  Your "find" you said was 1/4"-28.  Not compatible sizes.... ?????
> DanK


Not sure who you were directing this reply to... but I didn't "find" the 1/4-28. I am only referring to 1/4 24s


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## Dan Krager (Feb 22, 2022)

My bad.  I was way back on the first page without realizing more pages were up.  And I often don't check the poster if the reply fits the rhythm...
Good luck.  

I'm half interested as a hobbyist doing small items, but shipping would be prohibitive. 

DanK


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## woodchucker (Feb 22, 2022)

Dan Krager said:


> Single point means cutting the threads on a lathe with a single point 60°cutter. It is not trivial in a long skinny application like this because the rod would have to be supported very near the point of cutting, i.e. a follower is going to be needed. Single point cutting requires several passes to complete the thread making this a very time consuming method.
> 
> It doesn't make sense that the post would need to be so much harder than the nuts that run on it. Brass is very soft by comparison, even if "hard" brass.  I've handled hand planes for over 60 years and have yet to encounter one with worn out threads. I have encountered rust and corrosion under the nuts, but hardness will not "fix" that. Even mild steel will be harder than the cast iron it screws into at the bottom.  I would rather ruin the post than bugger the relatively delicate threads in the sole.
> 
> ...


Dan, I think the problem is not the nuts, but the adjuster it probably destroys the thread while running up and down. Think a fork or clevis on the thread.


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## mwebster51 (Feb 22, 2022)

Dan Krager said:


> My bad.  I was way back on the first page without realizing more pages were up.  And I often don't check the poster if the reply fits the rhythm...
> Good luck.
> 
> I'm half interested as a hobbyist doing small items, but shipping would be prohibitive.
> ...


Thanks


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## 682bear (Feb 22, 2022)

Just a suggestion...

I had the same problem needing some short ¼-24 studs for a Hendey lathe rebuild... I discovered that 6mm x 1.0mm threaded rod is VERY close to ¼-24...

6mm x 1.0 is easy to find... if the thread is not exact enough, it may be possible to run a ¼-24 die over it and make it work...

-Bear


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## Navy Chief (Feb 22, 2022)

Putting a hardened tool steel screw in that location is going to cause accelerated wear in the relatively soft brass nut that drives the mechanism. Any example of a worn screw in that location is likely decades old. This seems like a solution looking for a problem. 

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## mwebster51 (Feb 22, 2022)

682bear said:


> Just a suggestion...
> 
> I had the same problem needing some short ¼-24 studs for a Hendey lathe rebuild... I discovered that 6mm x 1.0mm threaded rod is VERY close to ¼-24...
> 
> ...


Thanks I will keep that in mind!


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## woodchucker (Feb 22, 2022)

Navy Chief said:


> Putting a hardened tool steel screw in that location is going to cause accelerated wear in the relatively soft brass nut that drives the mechanism. Any example of a worn screw in that location is likely decades old. This seems like a solution looking for a problem.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


Not really. Hard and Soft go together particularly well.   Hard and Hard (gall)   soft and soft (gall) not always, but opposites attract...


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## francist (Feb 22, 2022)

For any “woodies” who might want to check out the offerings as well as some interesting patent drawings of the mechanisms…









						Union Manufacturing Company
					

Union Mfg Co Since 1866 Woodworking Hand Tool Manufacturer




					www.unionmfgco.com
				




They’re some nice looking planes.


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## MikeInOr (Feb 22, 2022)

mwebster51 said:


> I agree with woodchucker's reply. I have worn out a few HSS dies on O1


If you own a lathe and have the time to learn how to single point thread properly I completely agree that would be the best way to go.  If you don't own a lathe (like the OP doesn't) and aren't interested in picking one up a quality adjustable die seems like it would be a considerably cheaper way to get the job done... even if you have to go through a few of them when the need arises.


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## mwebster51 (Feb 22, 2022)

Thanks!


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## Navy Chief (Feb 22, 2022)

woodchucker said:


> Not really. Hard and Soft go together particularly well. Hard and Hard (gall) soft and soft (gall) not always, but opposites attract...


The wear is going to occur somewhere, using a hardened screw with the brass nut may delay it but it can not prevent it. The difference is one is an easily replaced piece of threaded rod the other is a fancy custom brass nut that will be difficult to source. 

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## mmcmdl (Feb 22, 2022)

I would look to a die head to pop them off IF the chasers were obtainable .


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## K_Ridley (Feb 22, 2022)

mwebster51 said:


> Hi guys, I am looking for a couple of 24" long 1/4-24 threaded rods made of O1 tool steel. (the material needs to be tougher than mild steel  since there will be some wear/pressure on the threads) Can anyone give me a source for this or be willing to make me a couple for a fee? Thanks


Just an FYI. 1/4-24 is a thread used on old Harleys. If you were to contact some of the companies that make restoration hardware they may have something usable off the shelf. A couple of the better known ones would be Colony or Gardner-Westcott.


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## AmericanMachinist (Feb 23, 2022)

Would this be a fit for a CNC outfit that specializes in small run parts?


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## mmcmdl (Feb 23, 2022)

AmericanMachinist said:


> Would this be a fit for a CNC outfit that specializes in small run parts?


If you had a die head with the appropriate chasers , it would be an easy job in a manual lathe or even a mill . Easier to do them in maybe 6" lengths rather than 24" .


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## mmcmdl (Feb 23, 2022)

Cleveland 1/4" - 24 Series 100 Threading Chaser Set for Steel  | eBay
					

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Cleveland 1/4" - 24 Series 100 Threading Chaser Set for Steel at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



					www.ebay.com


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## Winegrower (Feb 23, 2022)

I have a geometric die head, 9/16” D size, and 1/4-24 chasers fitting that are on eBay for $30 To $50.


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## mmcmdl (Feb 23, 2022)

Winegrower said:


> I have a geometric die head, 9/16” D size, and 1/4-24 chasers fitting that are on eBay for $30 To $50.


You need a side job ?   I figured they may be a specialty item but they could be had . I don't think the OP has a lathe or mill but this would be the way to go making them . I have a 9/16" and 3/4" geo heads here but no 1/4-24 chasers , and the lathe and mill are idle still , otherwise , if the OP would buy the chasers , it would be a nice little job .


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## Winegrower (Feb 23, 2022)

mmcmdl said:


> You need a side job ?


Fortunately no, but with a lathe, a die head and chasers, you could knock these things out like gangbusters.

My survival rule is I will do anything for friends, never a charge, but they have to be there while I do it.


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## mmcmdl (Feb 23, 2022)

Winegrower said:


> Fortunately no, but with a lathe, a die head and chasers, you could knock these things out like gangbusters.


Yes sir , I agree . Maybe he'll find someone on here to take him up .


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## jwmay (Feb 23, 2022)

As a wood hack as well as a metal hack, I'm just echoing what others have said. There's no reason for this to be made of tool steel. A machinable stainless might be a reasonable middle ground, but it's just a threaded rod. I've got plenty of wood planes. The screws are fine after chasing, and they were all rusted pieces of junk when I got them. Also...they're not hardened. In fact the only failure I've ever seen is a broken tote, or handle. Probably caused by knocking it off the bench.
All that said: If that's what you want, that's what you get. A job is a job. I'm absolutely certain you can find a shop or person to make them. Just expect it to cost more than you want it to cost. You're asking for something "special x 2".


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## francist (Feb 23, 2022)

I too was curious about the described nature of this wear and couldn’t understand how it could be such a problem. None of my old Stanley or Bailey planes exhibit this so I had a look at the drawings and description of mechanisms on the Union website (you know, when in doubt look at the print…). It appears they use a much different setup than the single brass nut and captured fork that a typical Stanley or similar has. The Union mechanism is actually two separate nuts, one on top and one underneath, and the fork which runs up and down the screw. To adjust you need to slacken one nut and tighten the other, like a jam nut.

Okay, I saw the problem. That iron fork is going to be rubbing directly on the crests of the threaded rod, very unlike the Stanley arrangement where the fork is captured in the brass nut. So I believe the claim that there could be appreciable wear in the sides of that screw after some years. I guess the real question though is whether having a hardened screw will sufficiently mitigate that problem or will it just transfer all the wear to the softer iron fork which I’m guessing would be a lot harder to come by.

Still an interesting design though, and the claim by Union that there would be near zero backlash in the adjusting as well as zero shift once set is probably true. But overall, maybe not quite the longevity of the Stanley or Bailey design. Nice looking tools though, I don’t own one nor have I ever seen too many around these parts.

-frank


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## jwmay (Feb 23, 2022)

I got to thinking about this. I figured if people are asking for that feature, then it's a forgone conclusion. The people who collect or use this plane have all decided that's what it ought to be. So I may as well not think about it any further.  I'm not offering to even help make the darn things. So...yep...whatevs. Lol Good to know though.


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## mwebster51 (Feb 23, 2022)

K_Ridley said:


> Just an FYI. 1/4-24 is a thread used on old Harleys. If you were to contact some of the companies that make restoration hardware they may have something usable off the shelf. A couple of the better known ones would be Colony or Gardner-Westcott.


Yeah I saw that some Harley parts had 1/4-24.. In my short look see, I didn't see anything long enough. I will keep looking thanks


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## lordbeezer (Feb 23, 2022)

Lifter block hold down bolts are the only 1/4x24 I remember.not saying there’s not more.


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## mwebster51 (Feb 23, 2022)

francist said:


> I too was curious about the described nature of this wear and couldn’t understand how it could be such a problem. None of my old Stanley or Bailey planes exhibit this so I had a look at the drawings and description of mechanisms on the Union website (you know, when in doubt look at the print…). It appears they use a much different setup than the single brass nut and captured fork that a typical Stanley or similar has. The Union mechanism is actually two separate nuts, one on top and one underneath, and the fork which runs up and down the screw. To adjust you need to slacken one nut and tighten the other, like a jam nut.
> 
> Okay, I saw the problem. That iron fork is going to be rubbing directly on the crests of the threaded rod, very unlike the Stanley arrangement where the fork is captured in the brass nut. So I believe the claim that there could be appreciable wear in the sides of that screw after some years. I guess the real question though is whether having a hardened screw will sufficiently mitigate that problem or will it just transfer all the wear to the softer iron fork which I’m guessing would be a lot harder to come by.
> 
> ...


I have worked with Stanleys for around 50 years now and prefer them over the Union X planes. Probably since that is what I am used to. I was introduced to the Union X planes a couple of years ago when I started receiving them to refurbish/tune. The lateral adjuster is easier to manage small adjustments due to the design. But then I always just tapped the iron for those small adjustments on the Stanley/Baileys. The depth adjustment is finer with the Union due to where the fulcrum is placed. It takes more turns of the nuts to move the iron. And yes once positioned there really isn't any lash.... it is solid. Personally, I don't mind spinning the depth nut on the Stanleys... and then bringing the nut forward to secure. The Union's integral "frog" and large ramp at rear edge of the mouth makes a very solid surface for the business end of the irons. Some Unions you can close the mouth by sliding the front of the mouth back, like some block planes, but others you are left with a large mouth (no moveable frog). While I have never had problems getting the Bailey patterned planes to do what I needed, but the Union X plane is an interesting design and very attractive visually.


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## mwebster51 (Feb 23, 2022)

mmcmdl said:


> Cleveland 1/4" - 24 Series 100 Threading Chaser Set for Steel  | eBay
> 
> 
> Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Cleveland 1/4" - 24 Series 100 Threading Chaser Set for Steel at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
> ...


Yes I have a couple of 1/4"-24 dies and chasers thanks


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## Illinoyance (Mar 1, 2022)

I suspect the original threads were No.14-24.  That is very close to 1/4 -24.  I have 14  -24 chasers for my die head.  I believe there is enough adjustment in the die head to run either no. 14 or 1/4" threads.  I would be happy to run a batch for you if you provide the material and shipping.  I prefer Stressproof or Fatigueproof for machinability. 4140 is OK also.  All will have better strength than annealed O1.  I would like to have a sample of an original rod and a close fitting nut.  That way I can get an accurate measurement of the pitch diameter and can estimate the tolerance I would need to maintain.


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## mwebster51 (Mar 1, 2022)

Illinoyance said:


> I suspect the original threads were No.14-24.  That is very close to 1/4 -24.  I have 14  -24 chasers for my die head.  I believe there is enough adjustment in the die head to run either no. 14 or 1/4" threads.  I would be happy to run a batch for you if you provide the material and shipping.  I prefer Stressproof or Fatigueproof for machinability. 4140 is OK also.  All will have better strength than annealed O1.  I would like to have a sample of an original rod and a close fitting nut.  That way I can get an accurate measurement of the pitch diameter and can estimate the tolerance I would need to maintain.


Thanks, I have another offer in the works. Let me see how that goes and if I still need assistance I will let you know.


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## Illinoyance (Mar 6, 2022)

I found 1/4-24 chasers.


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## mwebster51 (Mar 6, 2022)

Thanks, one of the members of the forum is already going to make a few of them for me at this point.Thanks


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## Jimsehr (Mar 6, 2022)

mwebster51 said:


> Hi guys, I am looking for a couple of 24" long 1/4-24 threaded rods made of O1 tool steel. (the material needs to be tougher than mild steel  since there will be some wear/pressure on the threads) Can anyone give me a source for this or be willing to make me a couple for a fee? Thanks


I think you could get a price from a company that makes all thread rod. They thread roll the threads and that makes the threads STRONGER then cut threads. They might be able to use standard 24 pitch rolls that they use for 5/16 24 pitch  
all thread that comes in 36 inch lengths.
And they make all thread in different types of material.
Look in phone book or google machine shops that roll threads. They thread roll almost all store bought bolts. Or you could roll 5 inch long pieces.
I used to even have knurls rolled on 1 1/2 316 stainless steel and they always came out great.


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## mwebster51 (Mar 6, 2022)

Jimsehr said:


> I think you could get a price from a company that makes all thread rod. They thread roll the threads and that makes the threads STRONGER then cut threads. They might be able to use standard 24 pitch rolls that they use for 5/16 24 pitch
> all thread that comes in 36 inch lengths.
> And they make all thread in different types of material.
> Look in phone book or google machine shops that roll threads. They thread roll almost all store bought bolts. Or you could roll 5 inch long pieces.
> I used to even have knurls rolled on 1 1/2 316 stainless steel and they always came out great.


Thanks for the info!


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## hearsedriver (Mar 7, 2022)

as was indicated by others, Harley used 1/4-24 UNS threads on their bikes back in the day. i can advise that they used that thread on every 1/4" fastener they had on bikes in the 40's. the OP will not find a reproduction fastener with the all threaded length he needs from any parts sources for antique Harley's. Harley 45's used the 1/4-24 UNS thread on some studs that would give the length needed, for example, the engine case studs, however, they were not all thread, but rather threaded only at the ends. Harley (and Indian) used a lot of "odd" threads back then. info on the UNS threads is in Machinery's handbook. i purchased a tap and die for the 1/4-24 and several others that HD used.


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## TA Stewart (Mar 7, 2022)

mwebster51 said:


> The rod will be used to replace worn vertical posts for 100 year old Union hand planes (the X series) this is what it looks like in a refurbed plane
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In looking at the application, the threaded section only moves under non-load conditions. That is to say blade adjustments are made 
when plaining is stopped.  My thought is that tool steel won't be needed to used and other alloys may be very reliable.  I took a look at McMaster-Carr and found: Hardened Super-Corrosion-Resistant 316 Stainless Steel Threaded Rods—Grade B8M.  Have you seen this alloy?
Cheers, Terry


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## Illinoyance (Mar 7, 2022)

I think the material should be chosen for machinability not strength.  It is important to get a good finish on the threads both for appearance and smooth functioning.  The brass nuts will wear out before the screw.  A rough thread will accelerate the wear in the nuts.  Stainless would look out of place on a 100 year old plane restoration.  Go for 1100 or 1200 series steels.


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## twraska (Mar 8, 2022)

Janderso said:


> Or,
> McMaster has threaded rod in grade 8.


That’s what I was thinking.  I doubt the original screw was hardened tool steel and it lasted a lifetime.


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## woodchucker (Mar 20, 2022)

Thought I would post the job details here. I took the job , I had run some AL tests ahead of time, but AL is not O1. The tool pressure on O1 is much higher, and it added to the complexity. I knew this was certainly the probability. You can see it in my original responses.
Once the material arrived, my first cut indicated I had to build a follower rest. The cut was so inconsistent across the screw. My thought of doing a dome and using a cup to hold it also disappeared quickly. I had to use a center. Luckily I have a very nice small center. I now need to service it. I hit it a few times while starting the thread.  So I guess I'll start with the follower. I built one to do the task, and it should handle slightly larger and smaller stock.







I modified my carriage to handle a follower on the left side, rather than the right, this gives me a shorter stick out, then cutting on the right. So that helped too.



showing follow rest in op

The nuts provided by the mwebster51's customer were not counter sunk, nor were the consistent, one was tight, one loser.   After running the nut over many tests, it seems the tight one is now a little more loose.


I wound up ordering a nice die / adjustable to chase the threads since I could not rely on the brass nuts.
I had 2 failures on the first rod, so I had to order more material. The cut was too saw toothed, and was not to my liking.
I also had to modify my spanner for the collet draw bar. I added a notch to fit around the material. I added a nylon bushing to the end of the draw bar as well to keep the material centered and keep it from whipping.  When out at full length I have a support system too to hold the extra material.





After completing the material, they were ultrasonically cleaned, sprayed with Fluid film and slotted in a bag that I made with individual pockets.. sealed, and ready to ship.


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## Jimsehr (Mar 21, 2022)

Here is pic of my tool I made to support long skinny bars. Think I posted it in 2017 on this group site.


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## Brento (Mar 21, 2022)

Nice job @woodchucker i see you got a Clausing huh?  I just put my Y DRO on my 8530 today. Only 2 more scales to go.


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## woodchucker (Mar 21, 2022)

Jimsehr said:


> Here is pic of my tool I made to support long skinny bars. Think I posted it in 2017 on this group site.
> 
> View attachment 401250


more like a steady than a follow...

I will say the use of bearing solidfied my decision on my steady rest to use brass rub bearings.  Any grit that got on the bearings while cutting translated poorly. I had to use a stream of air to keep them clean. I just felt that the sawing action of a screw would quickly ruin the brass follower. I still think that.


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