# Hi Torque LMS 3536 bench lathe!



## Latheskip (May 2, 2013)

I was wondering if anybody has experience with this lathe.
I want to fabricate small round aluminum parts of about 2" in diameter, which have to be milled later too.
Since I am new to the lathe and mill business, I am asking more experienced guys about their opinion.
All inputs about the above mentioned lathe and/or suggestions for other medium size bench lathes are very much appreciated.

Cheers
Latheskip


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## hman (May 3, 2013)

Looks like a sweet machine.  How long has it been out?????  Looks like a great candidate for "my Arizona lathe" (have a G4000 in Oregon, don't want to move it, as I'm there part of the year).

I looked at the specs, photos, and other info I could find, but some numbers (like spindle thread) are still missing.  I sent an email requesting this, plus a download source for the manual.

I'll let y'all know what I find out.


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## Latheskip (May 3, 2013)

hman said:


> Looks like a sweet machine.  How long has it been out?????  Looks like a great candidate for "my Arizona lathe" (have a G4000 in Oregon, don't want to move it, as I'm there part of the year).
> 
> I looked at the specs, photos, and other info I could find, but some numbers (like spindle thread) are still missing.  I sent an email requesting this, plus a download source for the manual.
> 
> I'll let y'all know what I find out.




Here comes the manual . . .
Btw. and they have a 5" chuck for it.

Cheers
Latheskip


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## Ruben (May 3, 2013)

Latheskip said:


> I was wondering if anybody has experience with this lathe.
> I want to fabricate small round aluminum parts of about 2" in diameter, which have to be milled later too.
> Since I am new to the lathe and mill business, I am asking more experienced guys about their opinion.
> All inputs about the above mentioned lathe and/or suggestions for other medium size bench lathes are very much appreciated.
> ...


I have one of those, and I like it, but I have VERY little experience using any other lathe.  Mine came with the stand and the goodies.

The goodies are mostly useable, but I bought the live center in addition.  The variable speed on the lathe is very stable and powerful, but the motor doesn't have enough power to thread using hand taps, but thats pretty far outside the intended use (threading using bits, as intended, works fine), although I tried it anyway, finding that the tap tend to spin in the three jaw chuck, due to the tap being so hard.

The threading gear set looks a bit rough, but they're rugged, cast iron or steel, and easy to change.  The lathe is very quiet, compared to others I've heard, and seems pretty rigid, and capable of better accuracy than its operator (Me).  The controls feel natural, work well, and the tachometer is great.

The interior of the spindle of mine is very rough, but works fine.  My tailstock wasn't machined quite right, it wouldn't pop either center or the chuck adapter out correctly, but I disassembled it, and turned off about .050 from the shoulder of the center rod (whatever its called), which now works perfect, pops the center right out.

The stand works ok, but looks a bit cheap, just sheet metal, but the top of it which serves as chip and liquids catcher works great.  Looks aside, it functions well.  

The lathe doesn't have a threading dial, but backing off the cross slide a full turn, then reversing the lathe, works fine for threading, although it seems a bit slow compared to videos I've seen of the heavy iron lathes working with a threading dial.  Other than that, the only downsides compared to the bigger machines is the short bed (not been an issue for me, but would be if I were doing rifle barrels or similar), and my speculation that the ways aren't hardened (based upon the ease of drilling the cross slide table when installing the DRO).  I don't know that for sure, but I suspect they'll wear with hard use.  For my hobby use, its perfect, unlike my mini mill, which could use more power, rigidity, and more travel on the Y axis. Two guys can muscle it onto a stout two wheel hand cart and move it pretty easily (I did that last weekend), which would get pretty tough if it were even just a few pounds heavier, or much larger.


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## Latheskip (May 4, 2013)

Thanks Ruben, that was already good info.
Not sure what the threading dial really does, if have to read up on it. Or, if you know more about it, maybe explain it here.
The roughness of the spindle run has been explained in Jaakko's thread about the Sieg-4 in homeshopmachinist. Nice write up. Just read it yesterday.
Was your hand-tap just slipping, or is the motor really too weak? Which size tap did you use?

One other thing, which DROs are you using? Can you elaborate a little bit on those. Which type, installation etc.

Cheers
Latheskip


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## Ruben (May 4, 2013)

Latheskip said:


> Thanks Ruben, that was already good info.
> Not sure what the threading dial really does, if have to read up on it. Or, if you know more about it, maybe explain it here.
> The roughness of the spindle run has been explained in Jaakko's thread about the Sieg-4 in homeshopmachinist. Nice write up. Just read it yesterday.
> Was your hand-tap just slipping, or is the motor really too weak? Which size tap did you use?
> ...


The threading dial that some lathes have let you open the half nut to quickly run the table back to the start of the thread, then give you a guide as to when to close the half nut to be "sync'd" so you can cut another pass in exactly the right place, just deeper.  Without that dial, I have to leave the half nut closed, stop the lathe, back the cross slide out a full turn, reverse the lathe to get back past the beginnin thread, stop the lathe again, spin the cross slide exactly one turn back in, stopping on zero, adjust the compound for the next cut, then start the lathe back up in forward again for the next cut.  Not as acwward as it sounds, but seems slower than the the lathes with the threading dial.

Hand tap was slipping, 3/8 -NC, threading 1/2" thick cold rolled steel.  Motor didn't hang, but was scary fast, even at 100 RPM, slow as it will go.  

Also tried thread with a hand die, 3/8" tool steel rod.  Motor stopped instantly with that one, like it hardly even tried.  Required me to press the stop button and restart.  I had the stop quick stop once when I got too close with the cross slide, and had an external jaw for my four jaw chuch hit the cross slide.  Just stops instantly, no harm, no foul, other than me feeling like an idiot!  To be fair, theading that tool steel rod with a die was more than I could muster without a cheater extension.  Much easier to just use the lathe for threading, but that was just after I got the lathe, and didn't have a cutter for threading yet.

DRO is just a cheap remote readout, similar to this http://www.ebay.com/itm/12-Digital-...=BI_Heavy_Equipment_Parts&hash=item1e71c4aafb , one on each axis (two for the lathe (nothing on the compound), and three for the mini-mill).  I'll probably go with a pair of full fledged DRO's from DRO-Pros when I can get some cash built back up, but these work for now.  The cheap mechanical readout that LMS sells for this lathe was easy to install, but with that you still have the lash in the screw to deal with, not really much of an improvement over the nice built in units, in my opinion, although they do sell the DRO-Pros setup, which I'm saving for.  These cheapies that I'm using will hopefully get me by until then, and the lash in the screw is no problem, but much harder to read the the DRO-pros, and not backlighted.  With heavy use, battery life might be an issue for me too, but my useage hasn't been heavy enough yet to tell.  Too many projects, too little time and money LOL


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## hman (May 5, 2013)

One very probable reason there's no threading dial is that the lead screw is metric (2mm IIRC).  You can't expect to "find the right place" for inch threads unless the lead screw also has inch pitch - well, maybe you could, but you'd have to wait for the lead screw to turn 127 times ;~)

Recall that you can't use the threading dial on an inch lead screw lathe set up to cut metric threads, either.  

My guess is that because this is a metric lead screw lathe being sold in the US, LMS decided not to include the threading dial in order to avoid confusion.  Or maybe the Sieg C4 was never intended to have a threading dial - the Procon TL9000 (Australian version of the C4) doesn't have one, either.

I *have* read in a review that the normal "Stop" switch does a good job of stopping the lathe pretty quickly (probably using dynamic braking).  I just wonder if it might not be possible to wire up a carriage limit switch - maybe in series with or in place of the chuck cover interlock switch.  

I'm still considering buying this lathe, and everything negative I've seen so far does not sound that serious.  Lots of good features.  I especially like how cleverly the lead screw can be set up for left hand threading!

PS - Articles I've found helpful so far:

http://www.mini-lathe.com/m4/C4/c4.htm
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/45775-SIEG-C4-lathe
http://homeshopmachinist.blogspot.com/2010/12/cleaning-of-sieg-c4-lathe.html
http://gbenyhe.blogspot.com/2011/07/sieg-c4-in-house.html


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## Latheskip (May 5, 2013)

Thanks Ruben for all your info and John for the ad-ons and links,
that was a great help. Things begin to clear up.
As John said, there are some negatives, but nothing really serious. Overall it seems to be a very good choice.
The metric lead screw fits me well, because I have to do mostly metic threads anyway.
As for the threading with a hand die, Ruben mentioned, that the machine stopped instantly. Would it be possible to do this thread by just turning the chuck by hand back and forth?

I read some about the threading dial and this begins to sink in. Would it be possible to find the beginning of the thread also with precise DROs?

As fort you readouts, Ruben, I'd like to go with real good ones. I saw them on e-bay for about 400 with a big setting box . . .
The question is, if the scales fit in/under the SC-4?
They have slim-scales which could fit, but I don't have any measurements from the lathe.
Ruben, if I supply you with possible measurements from the scales, would you be able to see, if they fit?


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## Ruben (May 6, 2013)

Latheskip said:


> SNIP.. (*1)*The metric lead screw fits me well, because I have to do mostly metic threads anyway.
> *(2)* As for the threading with a hand die, Ruben mentioned, that the machine stopped instantly. Would it be possible to do this thread by just turning the chuck by hand back and forth?
> 
> *(3)* I read some about the threading dial and this begins to sink in. Would it be possible to find the beginning of the thread also with precise DROs?
> ...


1. The metric lead screw does NOT mean that you can't thread other threads.  Most NC & NF threads can be cut just fine.  The thread form for metric and SAE is the same, just the diameter and threads per inch is different, so its pretty easy, and the machine comes with a huge number of threading gears to cover a very wide range of threads.

2. I tried to do just that, using the chuck key for extra leverage. Just spun the rod in the chuck.  I had two things going against me.  I was threading tool steel, very hard, and I was trying for 100% threads.  I should have turned the rod smaller, and settled for 50% threads, OR used a cutter for normal threading.  After I got the rest of my cutting bits, threading wasn't much of an issue, using the machine as intended.  The big difference is that you can control the depth of cut, whereas with the taps and dies, the depth of cut is fixed.  Also, I was stupid for trying for 100% threads, 50% is plenty strong enough in steel, and much easier to cut.  Although I rarely use aluminum, I'd go 75% thread there.  The threading process using the intended procedure on this machine isn't really tough to master, just giving you the pro's and con's of this machine.  For hobby use, the extra time spent threading vs a machine with a threading dial is really no issue.  For any high volume situation, where time is money, that would change, but then you'd likely be talking a different process anyway, at the very least a CNC machine.

3.  I don't know.  I suspect that would be an exercise in frustration, too much chance of ruining a workpiece.  The intended procedure works fine.

4.  I'd be happy to measure whatever you need, BUT on the condition that I not be responsible for any issues that might result from that.  The scale for the carriage should be no issue, as there is lots of room on the back side of the machine, as long as you get the sending unit reasonable centered.  

With a little trimming of the splash guard near the motor, up to 23.75" should fit.  It "looks" like almost another inch should be available with slim enough scales, but I think thats deceptive, as this lathe has a big plate in the middle of the back side of the bed (I think used for the mill mount when equipped as a 3 in one machine, lathe-mill-drill) that requires the scale to be mounted with about .250" extra clearance from the rest of the bed.

_EDIT: I should have said: Without any trimming of the splash guard, or overlapping the mounting tab on the tailstock end, 20.75" is available. With the tailstock removed, carriage travel is 17.375" . My I'gage reader is 3.0" plus a half in each for the two mounts, so you need a minimum of space of 21.375, which is why the splash guard must be trimmed._

For the cross slide, I used an aluminum bar stock to extend the slide an extra few inches (due to the really deep splash guard, this is no problem), because I wanted to offset the read head so the tailstock could never hit it.  Works fine, and I only lost about .600" carriage travel when the tailstock is mounted, and of course full travel without the tailstock mounted.

I didn't bother with a DRO readout for the ompound, because its usually set at an angle, which would tend to make any reading, other than a set zero, nearly meaningless.


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## Latheskip (May 7, 2013)

Thanks again Ruben!
please find attached a drawing of the slim scales from drokits.com
Could you find out for me, if they would fit on the 3536 lathe? (Don't worry, you don't assume any responsibility whatsoever ))

They have them from 9.25" up.


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## Ruben (May 7, 2013)

Latheskip said:


> Thanks again Ruben!
> please find attached a drawing of the slim scales from drokits.com
> Could you find out for me, if they would fit on the 3536 lathe? (Don't worry, you don't assume any responsibility whatsoever ))
> 
> They have them from 9.25" up.


I checked their website.  Awsome price!  One "Gotcha" is that they only have scales in lengths of x times 100 mm.  The Carriage would need the 500 mm (you'd crash the readhead if you ever used the full travel with the 400, especially with the tailstock removed)

Slammed jam up against the motor mount on the spindle end, it would "just" fit, if you trimmed the spash guard enough to clear the read head at the spindle end, and trimmed off a big chunk of the splash guard where it mounts to the bed at the tailstock end (makes 25.375" available, you'd use 25.0 of that).  You'd probably need to mount near the top of the motor mount, as below that the readhead would be in danger of crashing into the motor.  Space at the top of the motor mount is very tight, about .750" between the motor and the bottom of the carriage.  A scale about two inches shorter would be much better, although still very tight.  Space on these compact tools is really at a premium.

Another approach would be to make a support the the scale that would run behind the motor buildout of the splash guard, then make an extension of five inches or so to connect the readhead to the carriage.  I think that would actually work better, lots of room that way, the 500mm scale would work great that way.

The cross slide would require the 200 mm scale, which again is about two inches longer than needed, but the 100 mm is too short.  It would stick way out on the splash guard side, but there's plenty of room, due to the shape of the splash guard, so it should work OK.

I had my sights set on the DRO-Pros http://www.dropros.com/DRO_PROS_Lathe_Digital_Readout#DPLathes , which allows me to use a 450mm (vs the 500mm) for the carriage, and a 150mm (vs the 200mm), which is still a bit tight on the cross slide, but gives me close to those two inches.  A lot more money though, $692.00 US vs drokits.com $419.00 US, both including shipping and the one micron scale on the cross slide.  Very tempting!

Hopefully, someone with experience with one or the other, or something else that would fit, will enlighten us.

Let me know how it turns out, I get by fine with the Igaging setup on my mini mill for now, but my lathe deserves a REAL DRO!  LOL


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## Ruben (May 8, 2013)

Ruben said:


> SNIP ... Another approach would be to make a support the the scale that would run behind the motor buildout of the splash guard, then make an extension of five inches or so to connect the readhead to the carriage.  I think that would actually work better, lots of room that way, the 500mm scale would work great that way....Snip the rest..


I disassembled my lathe tonight to do some better eyeball planning.  The low priced DRO with 500mm scale really has me tempted, the difference in money from the DRO-Pros would let me purchase a set pretty much now.

So, I'm not sure this brainstorm will even work.  It looks like the backsplash would allow too much movement side to side, destroying all accuracy.  I think I'll round up some 1.5" angle iron Saturday, and weld up a reinforcing "box" that would prevent any movement of the backsplash, and then fasten the scale to that.  The 500mm scale is 25.0" overall length, mounting out in the splashguard makes 25.5" available. Even if i keep the angle iron brace as short as possible, that's still pretty tight.  I begin to see why many use the magnetic scales, much more compact.

If I'm not 100% sure I can make the cheap glass scales work, I'll order the high priced magnetic DRO (seems nuts to pay almost a much for a DRO as I spent on the lathe!), or the shorter DRO-Pros glass scale if it'll fit for sure.  The Igaging set works decent on the mini mill, but having radius readout instead of diameter readout on the cross slide is more of an issue for me than I'd thought it would be.  At least this thread has prompted me to "get 'er done, soonest"! ) The Igaging stuff will be off the lathe tonight, I can use it for spares on the mini mill, if needed.

Good thing I've got nothing planned for the lathe for the next few days, my current projects all involve milling, welding, and woodworking.


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## puzzler_ken (May 8, 2013)

I bought the SC4 (LMS 3536) a couple of months ago.  It replaced a Jet 9x20 that I had for 7-8 years. I love it!
That being said,  there are some pluses and minuses to consider.

Pluses:

   Variable speed motor with a tachometer ( no belts to change )
   Capability to cut left-hand threads
   TIR on my spindle was 0.0004!!
   Lower minimum speed of 100 RPM ( wish it was 50 RPM for threading )
   Better design of compound slide than any of the 9x20s
   Covered lead screw
   Splash guard included

Minuses:

   Quality of Paint coverage so-so ( typical of chinese-made machinery that I have seen )
   Included 3-jaw chuck is not great( TIR on mine is about 0.003" ) I bought a 4-jaw and don't use the 3-jaw
   I bought an MT-2 collet set and collet closer that requires a 1/2 x 13 TPI draw bar.  This lathe does not have
       the change gears to cut a 13 TPI thread!  I had to buy 1/2 x 13 TPI all-thread rod at Home Depot
       to make the draw bar.
   All chucks are mounted on the spindle with 3 screws.  There is only about 3/4" between the spindle flange and the
       lathe chassis to jockey the screws into position ( I wish the spindle was threaded instead ).

All-in-all this lathe is quite accurate right out of the box and I hope to be using it for a number of years.  Most of the minuses
can be compensated for one way or another.  My first project is a ball turner that uses the compound hold-down as a base.

Puzzler_ken (Ken Veto)


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## hman (May 9, 2013)

puzzler_ken said:


> Minuses:
> 
> This lathe does not have the change gears to cut a 13 TPI thread!  I had to buy 1/2 x 13 TPI all-thread rod at Home Depot
> to make the draw bar.
> ...



Ken -

First off, I *don't* have one of these lathes.  But because I'm seriously considering it, I've studied the manuals for the LMS 3536, Procon TL9000 and Travers 87-116-020.  Surprisingly, the Procon manual does not include a thread setup chart.  But the Travers manual does, and indeed it's missing any 13TPI information.  Luckily, the LMS manual, Page 33, comes to the rescue!  

First off, I compared several threading setups in the Travers manual to those in the LMS manual, and they all matched, so at least they're both talking about the same hardware.  And on Page 33 of the LMS manual, it gives the following setup for 13TPI: A=50, B=94, C=90, D=49.

Assuming you have all the required gears, you can probably cut that thread on any SC4.

For anybody who has a non-LMS SC4 and wants the LMS manual, you can download it from:
http://littlemachineshop.com/gallery/ug/3536 Bench Lathe Users Guide.pdf

Hope this is of some help!


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## Latheskip (Sep 24, 2013)

I tried to get in contact with Ruben via PM. No luck.

Does anybody know him personally or does anybody owns a LMS 3536 here in Florida??
Before i make a decision, I'd really like to see one in action first.

Cheers
Latheskip


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