# Mini-mill in my future?



## DavidR8 (Oct 21, 2019)

I made an offer on a 7x14 lathe today.
I was wavering between an older South Bend 9C in pieces of a new 7x14.
Decided that I want to learn to machine not rebuild a a machine at this point. 
I bid low to see what happens. They may reject the bid.


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## ttabbal (Oct 21, 2019)

Just keep in mind that you probably will need to do a fair bit of cleaning and adjusting on even new machines. More so for smaller hobby gear, it seems. That doesn't make it bad, plenty of good work happens on minis, it's just part of the game. 

Particularly on mini lathes, consider learning to grind HSS. A sharp HSS helps on smaller machines. After all, my 1127 isn't THAT much bigger.


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## DavidR8 (Oct 22, 2019)

And.... a 7x14 lathe is on its way to me. Delivery on the 25th


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## DavidR8 (Oct 22, 2019)

ttabbal said:


> Just keep in mind that you probably will need to do a fair bit of cleaning and adjusting on even new machines. More so for smaller hobby gear, it seems. That doesn't make it bad, plenty of good work happens on minis, it's just part of the game.
> 
> Particularly on mini lathes, consider learning to grind HSS. A sharp HSS helps on smaller machines. After all, my 1127 isn't THAT much bigger.


Yes, I expect my learning curve just started to ramp up!


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## ttabbal (Oct 22, 2019)

DavidR8 said:


> Yes, I expect my learning curve just started to ramp up!



There is a ton of stuff to learn. It's a lot of fun though. Do check out the big tool grinding and model thread. We have a number of models being sent around so you can see what the tools we're talking about look like.


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## DavidR8 (Oct 22, 2019)

ttabbal said:


> There is a ton of stuff to learn. It's a lot of fun though. Do check out the big tool grinding and model thread. We have a number of models being sent around so you can see what the tools we're talking about look like.



Is that the 1000+ post thread where number of sets of HSS tools were made by a kind member and sent to folks so they could see and touch well ground tools?




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## ttabbal (Oct 22, 2019)

DavidR8 said:


> Is that the 1000+ post thread where number of sets of HSS tools were made by a kind member and sent to folks so they could see and touch well ground tools?



That's the one! What we're sending around is keystock models though. The idea is that you can grind copies in keystock following the instructions. After some practice, you can switch to HSS blanks for real tools.


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## DavidR8 (Oct 22, 2019)

@ttabbal ok I was reading that thread and thought that was a super cool idea. Very community minded approach to learning. 

On the subject of grinding, I get the impression that a belt grinder is the way to go, a 2”x42” grinder specifically. 

Is that the tool of choice as they are rare as hens teeth in my area. 


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## GrayTech (Oct 22, 2019)

Congrats on the lathe. Every machine should come with a warning though - acquiring tooling can get expensive and theres always something else you think you need, welcome to the addiction! Just convince your better half that every new aquisition is adding to a great investment. 

Grinder vs belt sander for tool grinding is a personal preference thing i believe. I use my grinder for most but occationally use the belt sander for hogging a rough profile i want. The key seems to be having a decent tool rest and/or grinding jig to set angles correctly. Stay safe and enjoy your new toy. 

Gray


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## ttabbal (Oct 22, 2019)

My 2x72 is certainly my first choice. I built it, there are a number of plans online for them. 

That said, a normal bench grinder can certainly be used just fine. It's really up to you. The biggest thing with most of them is that they don't have a very good rest for the work. That can be solved as simply as bolting a plate to the stock rest.


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## DavidR8 (Oct 22, 2019)

Thanks @GrayTech! 
I experienced TAS today as I searched for a QCTP. 
Didn’t commit to anything just yet. 
Want to wait for the lathe to actually arrive. Scheduled for Friday delivery. 
All 98 lbs of it 


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## mikey (Oct 22, 2019)

David, as the OP for that model tools thread, I would like to invite you to join @ttabbal  and the rest of us on that thread. We have had a ton of fun and a lot of the guys have learned to grind some really nice tools in an amazingly short amount of time. For a small lathe like the one you're getting, HSS is probably the best tooling choice for most hobby shop materials. Just PM @Z2V to get on the list for the models and you're on your way.

The grinder type you use is less important than the shape and angles of the tools you grind. As long as you get those right, that's what counts. However, I will tell you that a belt sander will get it done faster, cooler, easier and with fewer facets than a bench grinder.


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## ttabbal (Oct 22, 2019)

I originally tried to just have us all send @mikey tool bits to grind. He decided to teach us instead.  I think we got the better part of that deal!

I still would like to see the look on his face when a hundred lbs of HSS shows up.


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## DavidR8 (Oct 23, 2019)

@mikey I’ll find the thread again tonight and keep reading it. 
And I’ll PM @Z2V to get on the list. 


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## mikey (Oct 23, 2019)

ttabbal said:


> I originally tried to just have us all send @mikey tool bits to grind. He decided to teach us instead.  I think we got the better part of that deal!
> 
> I still would like to see the look on his face when a hundred lbs of HSS shows up.



Yeah, like that would have happened ...


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## DavidR8 (Oct 29, 2019)

Got a delivery notification from FedEx a few minutes ago!
I hope my new lathe is waiting for me when I get home!


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## DavidR8 (Oct 29, 2019)

DavidR8 said:


> Got a delivery notification from FedEx a few minutes ago!
> I hope my new lathe is waiting for me when I get home!



It’s here! 
In an impressively stout crate. No cardboard box here. That’s a wooden crate. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			






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## ttabbal (Oct 29, 2019)

Nice! New tool day is always a good day!


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## francist (Oct 29, 2019)

Anticipation is mounting, eagerly waiting on first pics.....


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## DavidR8 (Oct 29, 2019)

Here are a few teasers. 
(I don’t have space on my benches to set it up yet)

Chip tray is intact.





The tailstock was loose in the bottom but seems just fine. 






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## DavidR8 (Oct 30, 2019)

Ok folks here's my lathe.
Overall it looks pretty good. It's very smooth and quiet when running. Power feed works well, Half nuts engage and disengage positively.
In the crate there was a loose allen bolt 1/2" long. No idea where it's from at this point.







Is this typical for the crossslide crank to not have a zero ring? (I have no idea what it's actually called but the ring that rotates to mark zero so you can tell how much you're advancing the slide)


I noticed an oil port on the chuck which seems a good idea.



There a casting flaw on the bed but I don't think it will affect anything. Overall the machining on the ways is quite good. Tailstock slides very smoothly. Gibs on the crossslide and compound need some attention.


The detent for the forward/reverse is slightly off such that when in neutral, the top plastic gear makes slight contact with the spindle gear. Actually the contact is intermittent so I think the spindle gear is actually not quite round. Hmmm....

The only other thing I noticed when running it is that the arm at the bottom of the gear box is misaligned causing the gears to run slightly askew. I think the nut at the bottom is too thick.







Your browser is not able to display this video.


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## DavidR8 (Nov 1, 2019)

I pulled off the gear cover tonight to look at the misaligned change gears.
The change gear plate is flat.



I think the problem is that the pivot for the change gear adjustment plate is not perpendicular to the plate so when the adjustment nut is snugged down it skews the plate.



The location of the pivot on the base is not machined flat, it's just rough cast iron. If the pivot isn't tightened down the plate is flat. My hand is holding the plate up so the gears mesh.



I think I can hit the base with a grinder and get the spot where the pivot sits closer to flat. Barring that I might have to shim it out. Shimming it perpendicular seems a bit cheesy so happy to hear other views on how to improve.


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## Aaron_W (Nov 1, 2019)

Congratulations on the new addiction machine.  


These 7x14 lathes are somewhat notorious for needing a little massaging to get them running well, but they seem to do a good job once that is done. There are tons of youtube videos on recommended tweaks, as well as groups based around them. Replacement gears seem to be a popular upgrade. There was a 7x14 Yahoo group with a lot of information, but Yahoo groups will disappear forever in a few hours. 

There is a mini-machine Sherline, Taig, Sieg etc section under brand specific machines area, in addition to this mini-machine part of the site. 
Sherline seems to dominate most of the discussion in the brand forum, but there are posts about the Sieg machines. Most of the 7x14s are made by or at least based on the Sieg lathes. The factory makes machines for many re-sellers the main difference being the color and branding on the individual machines.


Just a suggestion, but if you are asking a how to question that is not specific to your machine, I would post in the beginners or general area as they are more widely viewed and will get more responses. Other than size / power there isn't a whole lot of difference in how a 20x96" Monarch does something and how your 7x14 does it, just how quickly it gets done.

The mini-machine and brand specific areas are best for when the question pertains specifically to the machine. Don't feel like having a small lathe restricts you to the mini-machine areas of the forum.


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## francist (Nov 1, 2019)

The thing with shimming is that although it may not be a perfect long-term solution it does tend to be reversible. If there’s a chance you’ve misdiagnosed the problem / solution, a shim can usually be undone without much grief. I’m not quite sure how the nuts come into play though — if you did shim it, would it be something that would need to be redone each time you changed the position of the banjo?

Another possibility is adding a thin washer backed with some JB Weld to create a new boss that would be square to the casting and not skew the pivot. This would stand the pivot off the casting more though, so it might not be an option without some judicious grinding first. I don’t know just from looking at the photos how much room you have to work with.

A final caution if you do decide to employ a grinder — cast iron can yield surprisingly quickly under the wheel and it’s really easy to go way deep way fast! Employ care, and a small grinder if possible unless you’re a good hand at it.

- frank


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## Jidis (Nov 1, 2019)

Aaron_W said:


> There was a 7x14 Yahoo group with a lot of information, but Yahoo groups will disappear forever in a few hours.


Not sure if there was a 14, but if you're thinking of the 7x12 group, that activity got moved to groups.io a while back for anybody interested in joining it. 7x12 is just the name. I think any mini lathe discussion is welcome.





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						7x12MiniLathe@groups.io | Topics
					






					groups.io


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## DavidR8 (Nov 1, 2019)

francist said:


> The thing with shimming is that although it may not be a perfect long-term solution it does tend to be reversible. If there’s a chance you’ve misdiagnosed the problem / solution, a shim can usually be undone without much grief. I’m not quite sure how the nuts come into play though — if you did shim it, would it be something that would need to be redone each time you changed the position of the banjo?
> 
> Another possibility is adding a thin washer backed with some JB Weld to create a new boss that would be square to the casting and not skew the pivot. This would stand the pivot off the casting more though, so it might not be an option without some judicious grinding first. I don’t know just from looking at the photos how much room you have to work with.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the advice Frank, well taken.
I'm not sure that I described the situation well. The stud which provides the attachment point for tightening the plate is like a stud with a nut in the middle of the length. 
It is threaded into the base till the nut part seats against the cast iron. That's where I'd be looking to shim it out so that the stud is perpendicular to the change gear plate. 

This isn't my lathe but the offending stud can be seen through the adjustment slot in the change gear plate.
In my case, the stud is canted to the right a few degrees.


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## francist (Nov 1, 2019)

Right, that’s sort of what I was anticipating. In use, you loosen only the outside nut to adjust the banjo for different gear configurations and the nut that holds the pivot solid to the casting (almost like a jam nut) remains unchanged. Where I was going with all of that was trying to figure whether a shim would be a one-time fit and not have to be re-fiddled each time you loosened the outside nut.

-frank


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## DavidR8 (Nov 1, 2019)

@francist I think it's one-time fit because as you say, only the outside nut is loosened to change to position of the plate.


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## DavidR8 (Nov 3, 2019)

I sorted out the change gear problem today.

Here's what I started out with:



I shimmed out the stud with two layers of copper strapping.



Here's the result.



That makes me very happy!


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## mickri (Nov 3, 2019)

After reading through all of Mikeys tool bit thread several times when I was looking for info on how to grind certain tool bits I made a list of where to find each type of tool bit.  I posted that list on page 34 post 1007.
Being a newbie at this whole machining thing with limited funds I first used my 4" handheld high speed grinder to try to grind tool bits.  That took lots of trial and error to even get close and never worked very well.  Then I found a 6" dunlap bench grinder at a garage sale.  That was a big improvement over the grinder but still left much to be desired due to the lack of a good support.  I then found an old Delta 1x42 belt sander in a thrift store.  Wow is all I can say.  Grinding the exact tool bit angles that I wanted was now a piece of cake.  You will eventually want a bench grinder but I would get a belt sander first.  The really important think to look for in a belt sander is a solid platen that doesn't move or flex.  The size is secondary to the platen.  

Have fun with your new lathe.


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## RobertB (Nov 3, 2019)

mickri said:


> The really important think to look for in a belt sander is a solid platen that doesn't move or flex.



If you can get a good deal on a cheapo sander there are some pretty good youtube videos on improving the stock stamped sheet metal platens. These mods can make even the worst of the imports into serviceable units. Not as good as a quality unit, but it will get you by.


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## mickri (Nov 3, 2019)

You mentioned not having a zero ring (dial) on the cross slide.  My mill drill does not have a zero ring and to make matters worse one full rotation of the X or Y is .125 instead of .100.  My solution is writing down the starting point and then calculating the reading for each pass.  For example if the starting reading on the dial is 33 and I want to take off .010 with each pass I make a list starting with 33, 43, 53, 63 and so on.  If you are boring a hole the list would be 33, 23, 13, 3, 93 and so on.  I keep a writing pad handy to write stuff down to keep track of what I am doing.

One of your first projects could be to make a zero ring.  There are videos on how to make dials.  Tubalcain/Mr. Pete has one on his website and there are others.  Do a search.  If you haven't been to Mr Pete's website you need to go there.  He is a retired high school shop teacher with hundreds of videos on everything imaginable.  https://www.youtube.com/user/mrpete222/featured  Before I would make a zero ring I would make a rear parting tool holder.  Mikey has shown one that he made.  I forget where he posted it.  He will chime in here.  Parting will be one of your biggest challenges.  A rear parting tool holder pretty much solves that problem.

Another good first project would be to make a Norman style QCTP.  It can be made entirely with a lathe and a drill.  No need for a mill.  This will give you lots of practice turning and boring to precise diameters.  See my threads on this.  https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/norman-style-qctp.79705/ https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/tool-post-holder.69487/  You can always buy an Aloris type QCTP later if you want to.

Making your tooling is a good way to gain experience with your lathe.  Sure you can buy stuff but that won't give you any experience in how to use it.


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## DavidR8 (Nov 3, 2019)

RobertB said:


> If you can get a good deal on a cheapo sander there are some pretty good youtube videos on improving the stock stamped sheet metal platens. These mods can make even the worst of the imports into serviceable units. Not as good as a quality unit, but it will get you by.



I’ve got two 6” grinders. I wonder how much effort it would take to make a add a 2x42” belt to one side. 


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## Aaron_W (Nov 3, 2019)

DavidR8 said:


> I’ve got two 6” grinders. I wonder how much effort it would take to make a add a 2x42” belt to one side.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



If you get an aluminum oxide (white) wheel for one of your grinders, that will work. Making a 2x42 belt sander is on my project list, but I've done fine using an 8" bench grinder and following Mikey's instructions from the other thread.


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## ttabbal (Nov 3, 2019)

If you have a welder or know someone you can bribe, 2x72s are pretty easy to build. I mean, my dumb arse can do it...


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## mickri (Nov 3, 2019)

For a newbie an adjustable table/support is a must no matter whether you are using a bench grinder or a belt sander.  How easy that would be to add to one of your bench grinders depends on how the existing support is attached.  The support must be able to be tilted.  If the support can be tilted then all you might need to do is fasten a larger plate to the support.  This plate could be wood, plywood, steel, aluminum or whatever.  Each side of a tool bit has two angles.  The angle of the table/support gives you one angle. I use a combination square to set the angle of the table  You can get the other angle by using a combination square.  This is how I do it on my belt sander.










Grizzly sells a bench grinder with a belt sander on one side of the grinder.  https://www.grizzly.com/products/Grizzly-Combo-Belt-Sander-Grinder/H7760  Getting the correct angles might be tough.  It would all depend on the adjustability of the support/table.


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## DavidR8 (Nov 3, 2019)

mickri said:


> For a newbie an adjustable table/support is a must no matter whether you are using a bench grinder or a belt sander. How easy that would be to add to one of your bench grinders depends on how the existing support is attached. The support must be able to be tilted. If the support can be tilted then all you might need to do is fasten a larger plate to the support. This plate could be wood, plywood, steel, aluminum or whatever. Each side of a tool bit has two angles. The angle of the table/support gives you one angle. I use a combination square to set the angle of the table You can get the other angle by using a combination square. This is how I do it on my belt sander.
> 
> View attachment 305178
> 
> ...



Thanks for the pictures, they help me visualize what I might build. 

The Grizzly grinder/sander combo is interesting for the parts list as I can see how the unit is put together. Fueling ideas to replicate. 


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## DavidR8 (Nov 3, 2019)

ttabbal said:


> If you have a welder or know someone you can bribe, 2x72s are pretty easy to build. I mean, my dumb arse can do it...
> 
> View attachment 305169



That part that eludes me is sourcing the rollers for the belt.
Welding I can do 
I just can't do it well. Hadn't touched a MIG gun in 15 years. Took a while to get back to respectable. Not sure I'm there yet!
This is a mobile stand for my Unisaw.














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## ttabbal (Nov 3, 2019)

Rollers are all over eBay. I have the plastic ones from Oregon Blade Makers. They have held up surprisingly well, no issues at all. I figured I would just turn some aluminum ones when I wear them down, but I haven't needed to. Maybe I'll make some just for fun. 

I keep telling myself that I'll grind a knife on it. It looks like fun. 

Your beads look better than mine, have at it!


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## DavidR8 (Nov 3, 2019)

Thanks! 
I’m single handedly raising the share price on Norton Abrasives!
Actually it went better once I got my little Millermatic set up right. 


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## DavidR8 (Nov 6, 2019)

Minor update: I discovered that my lathe does not have a brushless motor despite being advertised as such. I raised the issue with the vendor and demanded compensation. 
The potential for a bad review produced a $165 refund bringing my purchase price down to $290. 
I'm not sure if having a brushed motor on a lather without a hi/lo gear range will be a factor but I'm happy with the price.


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## francist (Nov 6, 2019)

What are the ramifications of the brushed vs brushless motor -- no speed control or limited speed control at the motor and you rely on change gears only for speed range?

-f


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## DavidR8 (Nov 6, 2019)

francist said:


> What are the ramifications of the brushed vs brushless motor -- no speed control or limited speed control at the motor and you rely on change gears only for speed range?
> 
> -f



My lathe does have the variable speed adjustment.

According to my research brushless motors have more low speed torque thus no need for the hi/lo gearbox.

One thing I have read about is that brushless motors require different speed controls which can be prone to issues.


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