# Going To Buy A Lathe... Thoughts, Input Solicited By Inexperienced Dufus



## markamerica

Good evening!

I am finally in a position that I'm going to be able to finish enclosing the workshop section of my barn, and actually begin doing the things I enjoy in my sparse time off from the paying job. I'm new to the fora here, so please bear with me if I come across as insufferably dense.  There are two piece of equipment I wish to obtain for my workshop: A (vertical)milling machine and a lathe. On my small farm, there are so many things I could finally fix/build/concoct if I had those two machines, it's ridiculous.  I also like building custom things, and tinker and experiment with things.  I was a mechanic for the 7 years of my Army career, and have worked on everything from M151A2 "jeeps" to M992 Ammo Carriers, and also work for 13 years after my Army stint on pneumo-hydraulic aircraft arrestment systems used by the Air Force. I have done some minor electrical work, lots of welding(built the barn, for instance,) and have messed with electronics, specifically 70s-80s audio amplifiers and speakers from the same era. I have an adult daughter who, consequent to a bad car wreck just after graduation from high school, has impulse control issues and doesn't do well in social situations. One of my objects with all of this is to be able to teach her to focus again, and to do so absent social stress.  She helped with the welding when we built the barn(a teenager then,) and I find she does better when you can unplug from people and focus on a task. I'm now a computer nerd, specializing primarily in databases, networks, and virtualization, and we have a small thoroughbred farm here in Central Texas. Yes, I am the most *un*-interesting man in the world.

Okay, now that I have all that info out of the way, I've made a list of criteria for my "lathe-to-be," and I'm focused on the lathe now because once I finish enclosing the workshop, it's going to be somewhat harder(read impossible) to move a lathe into the space if it's of any significant size.

Things I need a lathe to have/do:
chase threads of metric and inch varieties.
at least 48" between centers
12" diameter max is fine
a taper attachment
spindle bore of at least 2 inches
must have no greater power requirement than 230 3 phase(and this will require a rotary phase converter)
I don't need super-duper accuracy for most things I do, though accuracy is always nice.
I don't need a DRO, but again, that's always a spiffy thing.
I don't need latest-greatest-most-complex if old and simple work fine.
I do have a budget that tells me that in order to get my list of criteria fulfilled, minimally, I need to be looking in the secondary and tertiary market(s.) I can't afford a new machine that fulfills that list above.

To that end, I've looked up and down craigslist until I could broadcast chunks. I've looked as far east as Mobile Alabama, as far North as Wichita, and as far West as New Mexico. I find a lot of ancient machines, some in very good shape and apparent condition, but most of them are lacking in the threading department, and most of them weigh 6000 lbs or more. Now, I have no objection to a big old lathe. I'm fine with it.  There was a Monarch in Dallas that I almost decided to ignore my metric thread requirement because it was a nice looking lathe. Sadly, but not surprisingly, it was gone already.

Along comes another lathe. It's a big machine, unknown brand, dataplate and nameplate missing, but after spending hours and hours perusing google images, I think I know the manufacturer, and I think I had guessed right on its approximate age.

Anyway, turns out, that lathe has some issues.  I'm going to inspect it looking for mechanical issues, because I think all of the problems are likely to be electrical. I'm not too proud to buy a broken lathe if there's some real expectation of fixing it, but if the gearbox is a bucket of shavings and fragments, I have no interest whatsoever.  Electrical things can be fixed. I can figure out most things, and I know there's a wealth of experience in the world who will gladly provide advice.  I'm here in part because I've read postings here in the past looking for solutions to particular problems. 

Anyway, I'd like to start out with this project. Obviously, there are downsides. If I can find a manual for this specific model(which is still unknown at this moment) I could probably fix it if it's only an electrical issue.  If there are mechanical issues, I'm outta there because getting parts will be impossible. 

On the other hand, I could just hang out and wait on a better lathe at a price I can afford. Not too long though, because placing a lathe larger than a modern 13x40 in the workshop will be tough once I button up that last wall.

Ideas, suggestions, and general interaction is welcome.

Thanks!

Mark


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## JimDawson

Welcome aboard Mark!

That's a tall order.  You have been doing exactly what I would suggest, the only thing I could add is to expand your search radius.  You are probably looking for a 15 x 50 machine.  They exist, but are less common that a 13/14 x 40

I agree that electrical is a non-issue in choosing a machine, if the mechanics are good then electrical issues would not deter me.


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## Wreck™Wreck

My name is Mark also.
 That being said an old cheap lathe with a 2" through spindle bore will be difficult to find at best, I once owned a 1930's 24" X 80" lathe that wasn't 2" through the spindle. 
You are in Texas so look for a small Oilfield lathe as these normally have very large through spindle bores.


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## Doubleeboy

Metric threading, long bed,   unless you can spring for a Mori, your choices are very few unless you are willing to consider Chinese made.   Most of the long bed American stuff is old and low speed.   Matt at PM has a 1660 from China that looks pretty good on paper.   I think one or two guys here have the 1660 or 1640 from Matt.   If I were to go the China route, I would talk to Matt, he is well respected and a straight shooter.

michael


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## JPigg55

Did you look at eBay ???
I poked in the zip code for Heidenheimer, TX and found quite a few fairly close.
Here's a couple links:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/14-x-40-Pre...189405?hash=item3d19488a1d:g:UJ0AAOSwJb9Ws254

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Logan-7502-...867050?hash=item2c9de933aa:g:05YAAOSwMNxXbGVM

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HARRISON-GA...358812?hash=item542636801c:g:r2MAAOSw5VFWMTGT

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rockwell-Lathe-/282149336731?hash=item41b169369b:g:4MgAAOSwDuJW1wDg

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CLOVER-ENGINE-LATHE-/272358490060?hash=item3f69d4bfcc:g:7IIAAOSw9k5XPxgW


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## markamerica

JimDawson said:


> Welcome aboard Mark!
> 
> That's a tall order.  You have been doing exactly what I would suggest, the only thing I could add is to expand your search radius.



Thanks Jim! I made my search radius as large as I dare. I figure if I haul all day, load up and turn around, I can make about an 18 hour trip of it for economy's sake, so I've tried to restrict my search radius to about 8 hours out, though I'd probably stretch it for the right lathe.  It's not that I don't look wider, but that it has to be a pretty sure bet for a good price to go longer. I've got the F350 and a 20k lb utility trailer for the trip if I can find the right lathe.  I looked at a Clausing Colchester that was 15 x 54 if I remember right, only shortfall being the fellow seemed to be darned proud of it, and didn't have the taper adapter either.  I'm not scared of fixing things within my capabilities. Electrical issues are really just wires, switches, relays, transformers, and motors. For me, the hardest part on many machines is coming up with the wiring diagrams and specs on components.  The lathe I'm looking at now seems to have issues, may be missing some electicral parts, not sure, going to go make an inspection run this weekend.  Some of these lathes are almost impossible to find good documentation. The older, and the more obscure, the harder it gets. The particular lathe I'm looking at, I can't even find a picture of the exact same lathe. Similar, maybe a year older or two, or a year newer or two... I'll post more about that this weekend.


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## Splat

Welcome to the board, MarkAmerica, and THANK YOU for your service!

Well, first off... do you think you have the knowledge to adequately evaluate a used machine? If not, do you know someone with that knowledge that can go with you to check machines out? If not then start saving up for a new machine. I've been in your place and have helped friends of friends out that really didn't know enough to  not get easily screwed buying a used machine. So do you really need a machine with 2" bore and 48" between centers? I doubt you'll find an old used lathe with 2" bore that isn't huge and really used.  I really think you should consider going new. Check out the offerings from Matt @ Quality Machine Tools or Grizzly.


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## markamerica

Wreck™Wreck said:


> My name is Mark also.
> That being said an old cheap lathe with a 2" through spindle bore will be difficult to find at best, I once owned a 1930's 24" X 80" lathe that wasn't 2" through the spindle.
> You are in Texas so look for a small Oilfield lathe as these normally have very large through spindle bores.


Thanks Wreck! I know I've decided to make my life harder with that spec. It's not easy, for sure. We'll see. I've been told that precise thing about oilfield lathes.


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## markamerica

Doubleeboy said:


> Metric threading, long bed,   unless you can spring for a Mori, your choices are very few unless you are willing to consider Chinese made.   Most of the long bed American stuff is old and low speed.   Matt at PM has a 1660 from China that looks pretty good on paper.   I think one or two guys here have the 1660 or 1640 from Matt.   If I were to go the China route, I would talk to Matt, he is well respected and a straight shooter.
> 
> michael


PM? Not sure what that is. Is that a different section here, or elsewhere offsite?  I'll look. Like I said, I'm on a budget.


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## markamerica

JPigg55 said:


> Did you look at eBay ???
> I poked in the zip code for Heidenheimer, TX and found quite a few fairly close.
> Here's a couple links:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/14-x-40-Pre...189405?hash=item3d19488a1d:g:UJ0AAOSwJb9Ws254
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Logan-7502-...867050?hash=item2c9de933aa:g:05YAAOSwMNxXbGVM
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/HARRISON-GA...358812?hash=item542636801c:g:r2MAAOSw5VFWMTGT
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rockwell-Lathe-/282149336731?hash=item41b169369b:g:4MgAAOSwDuJW1wDg
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/CLOVER-ENGINE-LATHE-/272358490060?hash=item3f69d4bfcc:g:7IIAAOSw9k5XPxgW



Thanks, and yes, I've looked at most of those. Main deficiency most of them have is the lack of metric threading.  Of course, some of them may not have that problem, but not being all that familiar with some of the makes and models, when the seller doesn't give you much info, or even tight enough pics to figure it out for yourself, it makes it hard.  That's one of the biggest frustrations I encounter looking both at Ebay and Craigslist: People list items and don't tell you important information that would help you choose, decide, or formulate an appropriate offer.  That's something I spend more time chasing. If I don't know the particular equipment, and the seller doesn't list it, and I can't find the specs, I move on if I don't get a fairly time response.. Still, I look at both every day as I slurp my morning coffee.


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## Splat

markamerica said:


> PM? Not sure what that is. Is that a different section here, or elsewhere offsite?  I'll look. Like I said, I'm on a budget.



He means Matt @ Quality Machine Tools who sells Precision Matthews branded machines. Good stuff.


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## markamerica

Splat said:


> Welcome to the board, MarkAmerica, and THANK YOU for your service!
> 
> Well, first off... do you think you have the knowledge to adequately evaluate a used machine? If not, do you know someone with that knowledge that can go with you to check machines out? If not then start saving up for a new machine. I've been in your place and have helped friends of friends out that really didn't know enough to  not get easily screwed buying a used machine. So do you really need a machine with 2" bore and 48" between centers? I doubt you'll find an old used lathe with 2" bore that isn't huge and really used.  I really think you should consider going new. Check out the offerings from Matt @ Quality Machine Tools or Grizzly.


Splat, thank you for the welcome, but please don't thank me for my service. It was my honor and privilege, and I thank you for helping make it a country worth serving!  

As to your question, you're right. I know just enough to get myself into trouble.  Do I have somebody close at hand to help me?  Sadly, no, the man upon whom I would have relied has passed, as he knew his way around machines and had long experience in such things.  So, shorter answer: No. I probably will stumble right into a pitfall. I never succeed until I manage to fail miserably at least once. Is Matt the same fellow being mentioned elsewhere above? I'm not familiar with QMT. I am familiar with Grizzly. Insofar as milling machines, I'm torn between a particular Grizzly model and getting a Bridgeport in the secondary/tertiary marketplace.  It's funny you say "huge and really used." Describes a lathe I'm looking at right now.  The thing that scares me most is the things I know I don't know, which are numerous. I'm too ignorant to be scared of the other things which I don't know that I don't know...LOL You're probably right about going new, but that reduces quite a bit what I can afford based on the prices I see. Thanks!


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## markamerica

Splat, thanks, I found the site in question. I didn't fool around and went directly to the lowest priced machine he sells that meets all my criteria. While I acknowledge that in a perfect world, I'd love to have a spiffy new machine like that, I'd have to enjoy looking at it, while wearing the cast iron frying pan  with which my wife would crater my cranium. I wouldn't be able to afford even the rotary phase converter I'd need to power it. No sir, as much as there's a lot of wisdom in what you advise, and while I'm sure what I looked at is a very reasonable price for a machine of its class, I'm going to have to abide by the Missus' command, posed ever in the form of a question and answer: "When is a great deal not a great deal? When you can't afford it."

Nice as that machine is, it's out of my reach. Oh, I could probably afford to buy the machine, but then it would be like a statue for some time to come, if not a permanent memorial to me, as the wife would kill me.

Thanks!


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## JPigg55

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't one find/make a set of gears to convert about any lathe for chasing metric thread ???
May take a little doing, but would widen lathe possibilities.
PS
Curious why the 2" thru hole ???


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## 4GSR

I have a 20" Lodge & Shipley lathe, I mean boat anchor,  that's not too far from you. It has a 1-3/4" hole in the spindle with about 78" between centers. It's wired up with a static phase converter, all you have to have is a 50 amp welders receptacle to plug it into and run.  I can make you a screaming deal for you if interested.  See my ad in the classified section at the bottom of the forum page, not at the top of the page.  Ken


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## samthedog

A Colchester Triumph 2000 would hit the target. 

http://www.lathes.co.uk/colchester/page21.html

They were sold in large numbers so may even be available on your side of the pond.

Paul.


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## samthedog

4gsr said:


> I have a 20" Lodge & Shipley lathe, I mean boat anchor,  that's not too far from you. It has a 1-3/4" hole in the spindle with about 78" between centers. It's wired up with a static phase converter, all you have to have is a 50 amp welders receptacle to plug it into and run.  I can make you a screaming deal for you if interested.  See my ad in the classified section at the bottom of the forum page, not at the top of the page.  Ken



If you can swing it, the above lathe is a DEAL! Old iron, ground bed, all the bells and whistles and HP to spare. if you can get away with slightly smaller spindle bore this L&S would be a top choice. I live in Norway and am salivating over it!

Paul.


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## mksj

Getting a used machine everything with a taper attachment and metric threading in good mechanical shape with a tight budget is a tall order. A few forum member purchased a PM1440 LB and PM1640 (there are various versions) from Quality machine tools and they very happy with it, they also make a PM1660 version if you can't live with 40". Otherwise it would meet your specifications. Being mad in China, the pricing is realistic for what you are getting. The first one listed below is a lot of machine for the price. There are also 1640 versions.
PM-1440E-LB  http://www.machinetoolonline.com/PM1440.html
http://www.machinetoolonline.com/PM1640.html

I am always hesitant spending a significant chunk of money on a machine that you cannot inspect directly, but something like these might be a consideration and you would need to hunt down a taper attachment:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Clausing-Colchester-Lathe-15-X-50-Gap-Bed-5c-Collet-Drawbar-/262501879259
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NARDINI-15-X-60-GAP-BED-LATHE-MODEL-ND-1560E-INCH-METRIC-/252232909714


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## GA Gyro

Just a thought here...

If you back off the 48" and the 2" bore...
You will increase the choices many fold!

There are lots of 40" laths with 1.5 to 1.75 bores available.


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## markamerica

JPigg55 said:


> Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't one find/make a set of gears to convert about any lathe for chasing metric thread ???
> May take a little doing, but would widen lathe possibilities.
> PS
> Curious why the 2" thru hole ???



JPigg55,
I suppose making gears would be possible, but how the heck I would do that.... I wouldn't know where to start. One would have a mighty chore to re-engineer the gears on one of these puppies. Why 2" or more? Very ambitious future project... I'll leave it there for now.

Thanks!


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## markamerica

4gsr said:


> I have a 20" Lodge & Shipley lathe, I mean boat anchor,  that's not too far from you. It has a 1-3/4" hole in the spindle with about 78" between centers. It's wired up with a static phase converter, all you have to have is a 50 amp welders receptacle to plug it into and run.  I can make you a screaming deal for you if interested.  See my ad in the classified section at the bottom of the forum page, not at the top of the page.  Ken


Ken, Thanks, replied as your already know in your ad thread. It's a beautiful lathe.


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## markamerica

samthedog said:


> A Colchester Triumph 2000 would hit the target.
> 
> http://www.lathes.co.uk/colchester/page21.html
> 
> They were sold in large numbers so may even be available on your side of the pond.
> 
> Paul.


Paul, that lathe looks very much like the Clkausing Colchesters I've seen that are 1500 series, I thin 15"x54" (ish). They are on my list to locate. I've seen a couple, but problem is most don't have a taper attachment, and looking around for that part, I found one for a 13x40 CC lathe on ebay that was around $1300.  Ouch.  So I'd have to find one that already had this or likely do without it for a while and/or pay through the nose if one comes along somewhere.


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## markamerica

mksj said:


> Getting a used machine everything with a taper attachment and metric threading in good mechanical shape with a tight budget is a tall order. A few forum member purchased a PM1440 LB and PM1640 (there are various versions) from Quality machine tools and they very happy with it, they also make a PM1660 version if you can't live with 40". Otherwise it would meet your specifications. Being mad in China, the pricing is realistic for what you are getting. The first one listed below is a lot of machine for the price. There are also 1640 versions.
> PM-1440E-LB  http://www.machinetoolonline.com/PM1440.html
> http://www.machinetoolonline.com/PM1640.html
> 
> I am always hesitant spending a significant chunk of money on a machine that you cannot inspect directly, but something like these might be a consideration and you would need to hunt down a taper attachment:
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Clausing-Colchester-Lathe-15-X-50-Gap-Bed-5c-Collet-Drawbar-/262501879259
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/NARDINI-15-X-60-GAP-BED-LATHE-MODEL-ND-1560E-INCH-METRIC-/252232909714



I've actually looked at those lathes on ebay. The CC is the one I look at carefully because it fulfills all my needs IF it has the taper attachment. I've looked at a bunch of them, and looked at one in Louisiana on Craigslist but was too late finding it. Was a decent price. Looked in good shape. Had the taper attachment.  WAS ALREADY GONE... Story of my life. Would have been pretty much perfect for my needs. As I mentioned to Paul, my only trepidation about buying one without a taper attachment is the trouble in finding one, complete, and at a price that won't set me back so much. Tall order from my preliminary research. Thanks!


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## markamerica

GA Gyro said:


> Just a thought here...
> 
> If you back off the 48" and the 2" bore...
> You will increase the choices many fold!
> 
> There are lots of 40" laths with 1.5 to 1.75 bores available.




John, I know. I've thought about this at some length.  Here's the story of my life: If I could "get by" with a 40" lathe, for most things, I will wind up needing 48", and eventually, 60," and eventually 100".  That's the way my life works. So as a general rule, I try to think about the largest capacity of a thing I believe I will need for some use, because nothing is worse than to spend a chunk of cash on a thing and find yourself wishing you'd have gotten something a wee bit bigger or more powerful or whatever.  As it is, the longest thing I might have to make(that I can reasonably conceive of on my farm and for the uses I might have) is about 46" long.  There's no doubt this is a tall order, and a limiting factor. I'm thinking I need to be patient.  Had I found one listing on craigslist a couple of days sooner, out of Louisiana, I'd have filled the bill with a very nice machine at a very reasonable price. Yep, it is certainly limiting the size of the field from which I can draw.  Absolutely true. And what I know is that what I buy now, I am going to have to live with for a long time, maybe the rest of my life, so I'd better get my money's worth and not regret it two months from now when something breaks and I have to make a new one from scratch. If I had $100 for every time this scenario has played out against me, I'd be able to buy the biggest, baddest, most capable, optioned-out lathe in the new market that I could fit in the barn. I look at the list, and it's lengthy. Bought a half-ton truck, wound up realizing I needed bigger.  Bought a 1-ton with 2WD and wound up needing 4WD. Bought a 2WD drive 45HP tractor, good little tractor, reliable and does all it promised and then some, but turns out, should have sprung for the 4WD version. Bought a post-hole auger for the 3-point on that tractor, came standard with a 12" auger, could have upgraded to 15" for less than $100. Took exactly two months until I could have kicked myself for skimping. To buy the 15" outright after the fact was $250.  The extra three inches would never have hurt, not once, but not having it did. Dumb. Just dumb. It's not that I couldn't find the extra $100 at the time. It's that I actually dared to speak "Nah, I'll never need bigger than 12." I should have stopped right then and fetched out the extra $100 because I had effectively cursed myself. So my rule is "buy the capacity I can stretch to afford" when buying equipment. Bought a home. "How many square feet do we really need?"  Yeah. Kick myself, kick myself, kick myself....LOL  Thanks!


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## JimDawson

markamerica said:


> my only trepidation about buying one without a taper attachment is the trouble in finding one



You could always build one  Right after you get your mill


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## markamerica

JimDawson said:


> You could always build one  Right after you get your mill


Now that's funny. I've got a lot of learning to do first. Thanks Jim!


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## markamerica

whoops wrong place...LOL


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## Chipper5783

"Metric threading" is a bit misnomer of advertising.  JPIGG is right, with the correct change gears, you can make about any lathe cut metric threads.  All the "Metric" leaver on the front of a lathe that is set up for imperial threading means is that it engages the 127 tooth gear and the vendor has done a little math for you.  If you check the available metric pitches that are on that front data plate, very few align to a standard metric thread.  This should not be a surprise - since the lead screw is imperial - any pitches which happen to line up are pretty much a fluke.  To get a meaningful selection of metric threads (when you have an imperial lead screw), you still need a couple sets of change gears.  The manual is also very nice to have, since someone else will have done the math to determine what change gears to use and what to select on the QC gear box to get a particular metric lead.  If you are stubborn enough, you can do the math yourself and make about any imperial lead screw achieve a lead of xx millimeters per revolution.  The issue is not the lathe, it is due to the lead screw.  In order to get different leads you set the lathe to perform "mechanical fractions" - commonly referred to as a gear ratio.

The reason for the 127 tooth gear is that is a ratio of the standard mm:inch conversion.  25.4 mm=1 inch.  25.4 x 5= 127  That gives you the metric conversion and then you fix the ratio to what you want with additional gears.

Keep looking.  With what you are after, I think you need 2 or 3 lathes to get the desired features.  Can't have too much iron.


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## Chipper5783

Taper attachment??  Ho humm.  Yawn.  Of course, nice to have.  Really not something that gets used very much (an opinion pole comes out every year or two).  The reason I'd advise you not to worry about that is because: 1. you can usually work around the issue some how, 2. the range of application is pretty limited (for how steep the angle and how long the run).  Definitely, if you cut quite a few tapers that are within the capabilities of the taper attachment, then it is awesome to have.  However, don't pass on an otherwise nice machine, just because it does not have a taper attachment.

I have two lathes, both have taper attachments that are straight forward and easy to use.  I have used both of them.  On my 15" lathe I have used it once in the 33 years I have had the machine.  On my 11" lathe I have used it once in the 4 years I have had the machine (and I could have used the other lathe but I wanted to be able to say I had used the TTA).


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## markamerica

Chipper5783 said:


> "Metric threading" is a bit misnomer of advertising.  JPIGG is right, with the correct change gears, you can make about any lathe cut metric threads.  All the "Metric" leaver on the front of a lathe that is set up for imperial threading means is that it engages the 127 tooth gear and the vendor has done a little math for you.  If you check the available metric pitches that are on that front data plate, very few align to a standard metric thread.  This should not be a surprise - since the lead screw is imperial - any pitches which happen to line up are pretty much a fluke.  To get a meaningful selection of metric threads (when you have an imperial lead screw), you still need a couple sets of change gears.  The manual is also very nice to have, since someone else will have done the math to determine what change gears to use and what to select on the QC gear box to get a particular metric lead.  If you are stubborn enough, you can do the math yourself and make about any imperial lead screw achieve a lead of xx millimeters per revolution.  The issue is not the lathe, it is due to the lead screw.  In order to get different leads you set the lathe to perform "mechanical fractions" - commonly referred to as a gear ratio.
> 
> The reason for the 127 tooth gear is that is a ratio of the standard mm:inch conversion.  25.4 mm=1 inch.  25.4 x 5= 127  That gives you the metric conversion and then you fix the ratio to what you want with additional gears.
> 
> Keep looking.  With what you are after, I think you need 2 or 3 lathes to get the desired features.  Can't have too much iron.


Chipper,

Thanks! I guess the deal is this: Can it be done? I'm sure it can. It would have to be possible but at this point, that's WAY over my head in terms of making gears. It's not that I'm afraid of doing the math. It's that I'm a beginner and I suspect I will need metric threading capabilities long before I know how to go about making gears my lathe could use to cut them. When I get to that point, I hope you're still active here because you can bet I'll be asking you.

I may have a line on a lathe right now. It has every feature I'm looking for, but it has electrical deficiencies. I'm going to inspect it, probably this weekend, have made contact with somebody who is willing to give me some guidance, and will in that way help me to decide whether this is something I can/should tackle. 

I love a challenge. Making gears for a lathe is something I should probably leave be just now. On the other hand, if the lathe I'm going to look at pans out, I might have to ask you to retract the "you can never have too much iron" remark for fear of what a certain Frau may do to me if she ever catches wind of me nodding in agreement. We'll see. If this one doesn't work out, on we'll go.


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## markamerica

Chipper5783 said:


> Taper attachment??  Ho humm.  Yawn.  Of course, nice to have.  Really not something that gets used very much (an opinion pole comes out every year or two).  The reason I'd advise you not to worry about that is because: 1. you can usually work around the issue some how, 2. the range of application is pretty limited (for how steep the angle and how long the run).  Definitely, if you cut quite a few tapers that are within the capabilities of the taper attachment, then it is awesome to have.  However, don't pass on an otherwise nice machine, just because it does not have a taper attachment.
> 
> I have two lathes, both have taper attachments that are straight forward and easy to use.  I have used both of them.  On my 15" lathe I have used it once in the 33 years I have had the machine.  On my 11" lathe I have used it once in the 4 years I have had the machine (and I could have used the other lathe but I wanted to be able to say I had used the TTA).



I hear you. On the other hand, if you plan on making a some things that you will make a large number of, and you know you'll want a consistent taper, the taper attachment really improves repeatable results, doesn't it? Just my observation that if want to make something with the exact same taper 3 dozen copies, a taper attachment should help me make efficient work of that. I'm hoping anyway. On the other hand, I see your point. I suppose it would be possible to make a template and figure out how to use it as a guide and do the same thing, kinda sorta, if I'm catching your drift. I've done that with a wood lathe and some table legs I turned once upon a time. Table would have looked odd with four completely different legs, and those weren't a simple linear taper either. Still my coffee table 20-odd years later.


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## JimDawson

markamerica said:


> Just my observation that if want to make something with the exact same taper 3 dozen copies, a taper attachment should help me make efficient work of that.


Yup


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## markamerica

Thanks to everyone who's welcomed me and responded to this thread. I very much appreciate all of your input!

Okay Jim, so let me ask you, because you seemed to be supportive early on of something I said about a lathe I'm currently considering(and hope to inspect this weekend.)  It's pretty clear from what I can gather that the machine in question is missing some electrical components, maybe a stepdown transformer of some sort that handles control circuits, and maybe some other odds and ends, and the motor might be toast(or not.) Rather than getting into the weeds of the specific lathe just now, let me ask some hopefully sensible questions:

I want to inspect it mechanically, but as Splat suggested up above, my experience for that chore is limited to the fact that I'm able to see things that are obviously broken, chipped, damaged, and worn. More subtle things will be more troublesome. For instance, I can tear the lid off the gearbox and see if there are broken/chipped/damaged gears, or if there is an unusually large amount of ground metal particles in the oil, and at least theoretically, I should be able to make some rudimentary assessment of how much lash there is between matching gears and so on. Knowing what is too much is another matter. I mean, I've worked with a lot of equipment for a long time, and while I'm a novice machinist(at best,) I can take measurements and find obvious mechanical problems quite well.  What scares me more is the subtle things, the things I don't know that I don't know, so to speak. For instance, I imagine a lathe of the age I'm looking at right now could well have some spindle bearing issues. I imagine there are all sorts of things like that I'll have more trouble spotting. (And a worn bearing isn't a deal-breaker either if I can source a replacement.) Of course, the idea is if the totality of the wear and tear on the machine is such that I'm going to spend more fixing it than it would ever be worth, or that it's going to take me years to afford to get it up and running, then probably very foolish to buy.  

Another area where my inexperience will harm me is in inspecting the ways and so on.  Obviously, if you want any hope of making even reasonably precise parts, the condition and wear of the ways and the lead screw and so on will be important.  How much free play exists here and there will also affect my ability to make parts.

Given all of this, do you have a checklist or could you help me construct one that would help a newbie like me not miss something big and ugly(though subtle to my eyes?) And here, I direct this not specifically to you Jim, but to any and everybody. Even if I can't have experienced machinists' eyes on the lathe, what I know is that machinists' eyes are only the sensor for a much more powerful asset which is their minds.  I have decent eyes, and I can communicate, so knowing what to look for and where to look for it will help me, and may give me the opportunity to ask a question of the more experienced minds here.

I will try to have more particulars put together, and I will take a bazillion pictures when I go to inspect it.  A good idea might be what tools I ought to take on my inspection trip. I already have a fair idea of what I'll need(I think!!!) but you folk will know much better than I.  I've got about a 3 hour drive to get there, maybe 2-1/2 if I don't run into traffic and don't dawdle.  The machine is not under power.  This limits things I can check, obviously.  I do need to look at the mechanical aspects of the machine closely, particularly because I won't be able to operate it under power.

One other thing I'm tempted to hold off on discussing is the electrical aspects. I'm tempted to hold off because I don't want to muddy the waters. After all, even if I discover this lathe is just too bad a shape to consider, this should provide a good exercise in inspecting a lathe and a good learning opportunity for me. So basically, I would want to do this just to help me learn even if I knew in advance that I probably wouldn't buy the lathe. Of course, if it wasn't a possibility, I wouldn't want to waste the guy's time either.  So let's make a momentary  and huge assumption for the sake of argument/consideration:

Let's pretend for a moment that I do the inspection of the lathe and decide that I don't see anything so big and ugly to make me run for the hills, particularly after further consultation with folks here. If I decided to proceed with the purchase of this lathe, I know already there are going to be electrical issues. One of those issues is likely to be the motor.  Would I be well-advised to consider putting a new motor on it, and if so, would it be advisable to go with a single-phase unit? I don't have native 3-phase power coming into my shop.  I have single phase, and I'll never have more than 230v. That said, I've thought about a rotary phase converter many times because I've wanted a new compressor for the shop, and I often see bargains in 3 phase units because so few people can power them in their home workshops and garages. I also know I'll be looking for a milling machine pretty soon also.  So 3 phase power may be a necessity anyway.  I'm just soliciting some very premature and preliminary advice from people who know a heck of a lot better than I.  I yield the floor... Thanks!


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## JimDawson

In general I look at overall condition.  In other words has the machine been well cared for or has it been beat to death.  Lack of lubrication on the ways is the biggie.  Deep scratches or scoring on the ways is a dead giveaway that the lathe has had a rough life.  Also look at the cross slide ways.  Dirty doesn't bother me, but look under the dirt even if it requires some solvent (WD-40) and a rag.

Look for wear on the lead screw by visually comparing the threads on the headstock end with the threads on the tailstock end.  If they look pretty much the same shape, then little wear is present.

Backlash in the cross slide is not a show stopper, 10-50 thousandths is reasonable.  The less the better.

Since the lathe is not under power you can't test run it, but turn the spindle by hand and run it through all of the gears (assuming it's a gearhead), and work all of the levers on everything just to make sure everything ''feels'' somewhat normal.  Pull the cover off of the back of the headstock and look at the gear train.

There is probably a lot more that I can't think of right now.


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## markamerica

JimDawson said:


> In general I look at overall condition.  In other words has the machine been well cared for or has it been beat to death.  Lack of lubrication on the ways is the biggie.  Deep scratches or scoring on the ways is a dead giveaway that the lathe has had a rough life.  Also look at the cross slide ways.  Dirty doesn't bother me, but look under the dirt even if it requires some solvent (WD-40) and a rag.
> 
> Look for wear on the lead screw by visually comparing the threads on the headstock end with the threads on the tailstock end.  If they look pretty much the same shape, then little wear is present.
> 
> Backlash in the cross slide is not a show stopper, 10-50 thousandths is reasonable.  The less the better.
> 
> Since the lathe is not under power you can't test run it, but turn the spindle by hand and run it through all of the gears (assuming it's a gearhead), and work all of the levers on everything just to make sure everything ''feels'' somewhat normal.  Pull the cover off of the back of the headstock and look at the gear train.
> 
> There is probably a lot more that I can't think of right now.



Thanks Jim, I had thought about that I should be able to carefully work the gears and so on. I already told the guy I'd be bringing some tools because I need to look in the gearbox.  Nice thing about this one is that I should be able to run it through its gears and actually observe the gears, based on the layout of the headstock, the lid of the gearbox being on top. I'm hoping that will help me spot any trouble in the gearbox.  The lead screw idea is a good one, because at the extreme end, it shouldn't get much wear at all. I should be able to compare at a few spots along its length to get an idea about wear. The ways are the thing that's harder to judge in my lack of experience. I mean yes, I can see gouges and pits and significant scoring.  One lathe I had looked at probably suffered from a lack of lube over a long period and the same operation over the same short span (relatively) of the ways over and over, and there was a visible dip of which you could actually see a beginning and end. If I can SEE something like that in the ways, I consider it a "run, don't walk" situation. I have no ambition for the kind of restoration work a machine in that condition would require, if salvageable at all. If you(or others) think of more things between now and Saturday afternoon, list them here. I will check back often and make a list. Thanks!


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## markamerica

Okay, so where I stand... I am going to look at a lathe tomorrow morning. It's a 3 hour drive. The lathe meets all of my stated criteria, save one thing: It doesn't run. The problem seems to be electrical. There may be a few electrical components missing/bad. It will be things like some kind of a step-down transformer for the controls, and maybe some sort of starting relay.  The motor's cover is missing, and there is missing wiring. The notion here is that if the mechanical aspects of the machine are sound, the lathe may be perfectly fix-able. Most of my inspection trip tomorrow will be spent inspecting as thoroughly as I am able all of the mechanical aspects of the machine.  I will be looking at the gearbox in detail, I will be looking at the spindle, I will be examining the lead screw, and I will be looking very closely at the ways. I'm taking a toolbox and a bundle of rags and some WD-40 etc so I can look at things in depth. I'm going to look at such wiring as is there, and see if I can figure out what the electrical issues might be, and if that's all that prevents the lathe from running.  If I can determine that the problems ARE all electrical, and that the machine is otherwise sound, as I said, I'll be making an offer. In fact, I've already made a provisional offer on that basis that the seller has accepted.  I am not tied to this lathe in any way, other than it meets my criteria.  If I see something that leads me to believe it's basically scrap-worthy, or at least beyond my reasonable repair capabilities/budget, I'm out of there.  I don't intend to buy a heavy piece of scrap and transport it twice besides.  Once I arrive on site, I am going to begin by taking a number of pictures. I'm going to remove panels and covers and so on, and begin to dig into the guts of the thing.  I'm going to look at all the moving parts. I'm going to try to make some determination about lash and so on, for all the moving pieces where that matters, and naturally, I'm going to be looking very closely at the ways. As Jim said above, I'm going to be looking for significant and obvious issues. I'd like to figure out a way to ascertain at least in the most broad sense how badly the ways may be worn, if they're not grossly damaged.

Do any of you have substantial knowledge of push-button start machine wiring schemes?  This series of machine seems to use some sort of step-down transformer for controls, probably down from main voltage to 120vac, and then (I think) you push a button to energize a relay coil circuit which then in turn close the circuit to start the motor.  I'm not super familiar with 3 phase power, never having had it available to me at the farm or in the home, and when I worked in a shop with 3phase power, that was the responsibility of somebody else.  So I'm only somewhat familiar with the way in which to wire it. To power it, I'm going to need to use a phase converter in any event.  I will, to the degree possible, take pictures and make drawings of the wiring, hopefully constructing a decent schematic, at least of what is there. If you're very familiar with the electrical aspects of these, if I decide to purchase this lathe, I'll need your help. Should that eventuate, I'll find the appropriate sub forum here to post a thread and seek your input.  Fortunately, there is at least one gentleman on this site who has a lathe of the same manufacture, and while I believe his to be somewhat older, many of the controls are similar, and I expect the core electrical setup will be quite similar if not identical. He's been quite kind in providing me a few pictures already, via the message system here, and I am grateful for his time. There appears to be a few more button on the one I'm considering, so there will be some learning involved there, but I would imagine that can be sorted out.  I view it as an adventure whether I decide to buy the lathe or not.  I will learn a great deal, and should be able to learn a few things about what to avoid if nothing else.  The seller has assured me I can take my sweet time and be as invasive as I like so long as I don't damage anything and it all goes back like it was.  He understands my position, and he's been very helpful and forthcoming in our interaction so far.  I expect to spend no less than three hours, and as much as four are allocated.  We'll see. Wish me luck. If I have time, I'll post from on site and get opinions and advice from all of you "on the fly." If I have time for that, it should be fun. 

Thanks again to all who've contributed to this thread, and thank you for your patience with me!

Mark


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## JimDawson

Sounds like a well reasoned plan.   Don't worry about the electrical, we can start from scratch if needed.  Pictures of what's there would be helpful after you get it home.  Don't need them right now.

Best of luck.


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## markamerica

Jim, Thanks! Even if I buy it, it won't be coming home tomorrow. I'm on call this weekend, so I've arranged with a co-worker to cover me for the length of the quick inspection trip.  Ground's a little wet to move something heavy to the barn at the moment anyway. It'll be on concrete once there, but it's the here-to-there that will be problematic at the moment.  Our ground here turns to absolute mush when it gets wet.  This strip of Texas, running sort of parallel to I-35 on the East is known as the Blacklands.  East of Austin, to our South, it's popularly known to residents as "the Black Gumbo."  Fortunately, the seller has space to spare, and so he's already agreed that if I buy the lathe, it can sit right where it is until I can feasibly come get it. As I said, he's being perfectly reasonable and helpful.  So I'll be taking pictures, particularly if I look at it and think it's a buy. 

As for the electrical, that's kind of how I was seeing it. To me, it's a motor turning machinery. Mankind has been figuring out ways to do this for quite some time, and I have no doubt if that's what's wrong, it can be fixed mostly with off the shelf stuff from somewhere, even if it means spending time looking at a bunch of datasheets on digikey, newark, and mouser, along with Ebay, etc... With some guidance from those like you, here in these fora, I have no doubt whatever that if it's solely an electrical problem, I can get a working lathe out of it somehow.  We'll see tomorrow. Again, thanks!


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## markamerica

Inspection results:

I arrived about 10:02 this morning at the appointed place in Victoria, Texas. I met the gentleman selling the lathe, and he took me to the shop where it's currently sitting(where they'd brought it to see if it could be powered up and discovered some significant electrical problems.  Basically, I'm going to have to rewire this beast, and probably replace the motor. At least I know what I'll be getting, and I knew the electrics would need work going in. More on that later. For now, let's talk about my findings on the mechanical inspection. 

The lathe in question is a 1979 model Martin DLZ502. It was made in Germany. It's a newer version of the same lathe another poster here on H-M has acquired.  He's been helping me a bit by providing me some pictures of his machine. He's been a big help, and has my extreme gratitude.  So, a little about the characteristics of this lathe.  It is a gap-bed lathe, theoretically 2000mm between centers (or around 79") It has 500mm(almost 20 inches) of swing over the bed. It weighs probably between 6500-7500 lbs(unfortunately, the data plate and name badge were missing, so I don't have a precise weight figure.) It theoretically cuts metric, imperial, module, and dp threads. It has a taper attachment and its spinfle bore is.... 4.25 inches(quick and dirty steel rule...didn't pull out calipers... This picture should permit you to see and get some idea of the scale of this beast.














I decided apart from a beginning cursory walk-around, my next step would be to pull the lid off the gearbox. My think was that if it's junk in there, no point going on.  I was 6'4" in youth(although I'm sure my spine has compressed some with age,) and the lid on the gearbox is at roughly base-of-breas tbone height for me.  It's a good thing it wasn't taller.  That cast lid weighs quite a bit. It would have to be around 90-100lbs. O pulled the 8 socket head screws that hold it in place. I had to be careful when sliding it off because there's a little sight gauge into which a small tube from the oil pump extends, I suppose to let you see that the pump is running, and there's oil in the gearbox being circulated.  There's also a tray with a lip onto which that oil land and then, I believe, spreads and falls onto the shafts and gears. There are two small diameter tube that run from the pump to the spindle bearings to keep them happy.  I did find a deficiency. It looked to be an ancient wound, but something the lathe has run with, probably for a long time: IF you look at the face of the gearbox, you'll note there's a longer handle that goes directly into the case(not the big dial-face spindle speed selector, but to the right of this.) If you look, you can see there is a small round red dot panel and a small round black dot panel, and these indicate the gear range. It translates into high and low range, effectively.  So this shifts the machine between the speed ranges in black and red marked on the dial face. At the other end of the shaft operated by that handle is a pair of gears, one small, one large, and they mesh with a small and large gear each, (of course only one at a time) and that is controlled by this lever.  Sometime in the history of this lathe, somebody attempted to shift this lever from low to high range without stopping the spindle first, and the edges of those two gears have some ground-off metal missing for about 60 degrees of a turn on the spindle gear and almost 3/4 of a turn on the mating gear, and only about 15% the width of the teeth on either.  No other gears in the gearbox have any kind of damage I could detect. I inspected them all, visually, and by looking for sharp edges, missing chunks, and so forth. I couldn't see any damage or feel any damage anywhere else in the box apart from the two high range gears.  After fooling around with it extensively, I don't think it will affect the lathe's operation. It had to have happened some time well in the past, because I couldn't find any grindings, chunks, or other gear metal in the gearbox, in the oil sump or anywhere else.  The incident that caused the damage must have happened before its last oil change, and that would have been well before it ceased operation because the oil, while not "bad," certainly isn't new or fresh.  Some newb like me grabbed a handful of lever while the spindle was still spinning at speed, is my best guess. It's a little ugly but I don't think it's a show-stopper. There's still about 80% of the width of the two gears that have no discernible damage, and as I said, I think it's been that way a long time, because it made no grinding, scraping, clacking noise once shifted over to high range. The low range gears have no such damage, so we know which way the newb had been shifting.  Either somebody stopped him from trying to shift it back, or the collision slowed the spindle to abruptly with an awful racket and he wised up, refraining from forcing it further.  So the pair of high range gears are a little ugly, but they seem to work, seem to mesh without difficulty, and it seems to have happened some time ago. All in all, the gearbox is in good shape with the deficiencies noted.  It should work fine and last with proper lubrication AND operation.





The gear on the right side here is the one with the most damage. Unfortunately, I didn't get a picture of the damaged segment. Had I turned it a further 1/4 turn or so before I took this picture, you'd see it. The gear to which it mates on the spindle is the other slightly damaged gear. The smaller gear here mates with the large gear at top left to give the lower speed range, and the one at right has a mate just out of the picture(currently engaged here). These two in slide back and forth on that shaft as the lever on the bulkhead is thrown.



Next I moved on to an examination of the ways.  This was the thing that turned out to be the debating point for me.  There is significant wear on the ways at the head end. It's significant on both the back of the rear way and the front of the forward way.  It's enough that there's an unworn ridge in the middle of the ways that it plainly visible from the first picture below. This ridge slowly disappears as you move tail-ward so that it seems to be a fairly uniform situation. It's not abnormal to have much more wear near the chuck end and much less at the tailstock end, from all the lathes I've looked at.  Truth is, if not for the unworn ridge, you wouldn't otherwise realize how worn the ways are, because except for where the wear substantially begins in the gap-section of the bed, there's no "low spots". It's a long taper from the low spot in the gap section out toward the tail end.  One of the wipers on the saddle has a broken mounting plate, with a broken-off screw, and the broken piece missing. I think I can drill and extract that screw and make a new plate without much trouble.  The tailstock ways look fine, with the exception of at the extreme head end, where they have some gouges and chunks.  Again, this is irrelevant because I don't imagine ever really using the tail stock way up there. Other than the gouges, from dropped metal items I'm certain, there's no wear at this end of the tailstock ways, so apparently, nobody else used it this far in either.
Front side of forward way.



Rear side of back way.


Near the tailstock end:


My biggest concern about the wear I see may be exaggerated by that perfectly straight, perfectly centered, unworn ridge that's about 3mm wide the whole length of the bed until you get to the tail-stock end. It's almost as if it's there for a reason, by virtue of a gap/slot in the saddle where no wear can occur. Could this be some kind of intentional wear indication? At it's worst spot, close to the headstock, it appears to be the thickness of about 2 sheets of paper, or a hair more. 

That tailstock is a massive sucker.  I would guess it must weigh at least 350 lbs, maybe more. It's huge. Sorry, back on task. 

One of the things that happened during my inspection is that I received a call from one of our members, 4GSR, who lives in the vicinity, but was otherwise engaged, yet still made time to give me a call and coach me through some things. We'd been corresponding about this lathe, and he expressed an interest in helping me out, for which I am quite thankful.  I had some questions about things I was seeing, and he helped me figure them out.  While on the phone with him, I looked at what happens when one locks the carriage half-nut on the lead screw. Moving the handwheel, I found that it would travel (eyeballed, as I was holding the phone with the other hand) somewhere in the 1/32" to 1/16" despite being engaged on the lead screw. 4GSR suggested, and I'm in agreement, that the half-nut is probably worn.  The threads on the leadscrew itself look pretty good, and while there's a wee bit more wear from the middle of the bed and in, it's not much. I think most of the wear is to be found in the half-nut.  Weirdly, there may be a source for this half-nut, so maybe something I can tighten up.  The cross-slide moved smoothly, and there was not a ton of lash in the feed crank. The compound had a half-turn of lash though, but 4GSR suggested that might be something simple, like the nut being loose or something. It seemed excessive, but probably something fixable.

The electrics need to be stripped out, to the degree they're there at all, and burned.  Okay, maybe that's hyperbole, but let's just say that I'll have a time of it getting this running. There isn't much there. Probably needs a motor too. Of course, I knew that going in.

So decision time.  I spoke with 4GSR at length about this because my worst concern is those ways. They're the thing that's going to throw off my accuracy and so on. Still, the degree of accuracy I need for most jobs here on the farm probably doesn't warrant the extent of my concern.  Also, because I wound up negotiating a good price on the machine, and because I love fixing up old things, making them useful again, and because I need something that will leave me the money to buy tools with which I can actually use the machine, and with some reassurance from 4GSR that I could overcome most of these issues, and also reminding me that most of the things I'll make won't demand .001 accuracy(or anything real close to it) anyway, this machine should suffice as a learning platform, and to produce useful items for use here on the farm, and it's definitely in my price range, all things considered.  I hemmed and hawed in my head for a bit, and then the seller showed back up and asked what I thought.  I told him about the deficiencies I discovered, some known, some unknown to him, and I had to decide. I looked at the lathe, I thought about the work ahead of me, and said "Ah, what the Hell."  "Sold!"

So I'm the proud owner of a pile of work.  It'll be a couple weeks before I can go pick it up. The first thing I'll need is to clean the snot out of it. It's dirty, dirty, dirty. It's in need of much love.  It's been repainted at least twice that I could tell from where paint is chipped off of it in spots.  The original color is good old pale machine green.  Here's an example spotted on google images:


By the way, the image above is a '69 if memory serves. Though very similar, not exact.

Then it was painted with a kind of battleship/deck gray, as can be seen on the pedestal under the headstock.  Then you notice the lighter gray, almost a primer gray, with which the headstock has been repainted. Time for a serious makeover.  It's missing half the ball-knobs from handles, but I'm sure I can find them on ebay or even make them. The thread-table plate, and all the other plates around the machine are legible but filthy.  (Except for the missing main data plate, which is, well, MISSING...LOL)

The steady rest is another big hunk of metal.  I see a lot of work in my future.

Pickup is provisionally scheduled for the first Sunday in October, weather permitting. 

Well, am I dead-bang nuts, or did I do "okay?" Apart from not running, I did get every feature on my shopping list. Oh, and there's something else a little interesting. There's an accessory socket that is mounted near the very bottom of the middle pedestal, in back:


I suspect this is for light and coolant pump, though neither accessory is present.  I believe this because two buttons on the front panel seem to correspond to this, one with a light icon, and the other with a faucet/spigot icon.  I could see where in 1979, that would have been a nice touch:



In the end, here was my reasoning on the ways. Tell me if I'm thinking wrong here.  This wear on the ways affects the height of the tool in relation to the piece of the turning stock material.  This means that as I move the tool from left to right, the tool will rise very slightly on its path because the ways are no longer parallel to the centerline of the stock.  The longer the piece, the worse the built-in taper, right?  Good so far?

This means that if I were trying to, let's imagine, turn a piece of 1.25" bar-stock into a 1.125 turning, There would be variance because I would either start at the tangent formed by the tool and the stock, or above it, or below it. As I moved the tool leftward, this would move the line of the cutter downward in relation to the centerline of the stock. The result would be a taper. If I started right at the tangent relation ship, my turning at its chuck end would be larger than the intended diameter because as we moved the tool left, it moved downward and no longer at a tangent to the stock, the turning would get progressively wider(I'd be removing less and less material.) If I started slightly above a tangent, my turning would get narrower as I moved from right to left, but once past the tangent(now below the centerline of the stock), it would begin to get wider and wider again. Am I tracking correctly?  If this is the case, then, if I really, really, really needed something more precise, couldn't I make the first pass at the tangent, and then adjust the tool up in small increments and make repeated passes until while starting above the tangent line, I was now finishing right at it?  Wouldn't this make my resulting turning the same diameter, end to end? Now, I also realize that the longer the piece, the more adjustments in tool height and passes I'd need to make, and this would get ridiculous, because there are infinite points on the line, so an infinite number of adjustments/passes would be required, but only to make it "perfect." To get it within .001" wouldn't require infinite passes, but definitely many more than two or three over say a 12" run. I'd have to work the geometry a bit more formally to figure out the number, but that calculation seems to be within the realm of feasibility.

Now I could see where this approach and external threading of stock would not work so well, but I could also then chase my thread with a hand tool, so maybe not so big a deal?

Okay, that's probably enough "outside-the-box" thinking. All my life, I've had to work with imperfect tools, and still gotten decent results, in part because I've always accepted my Dad's and Grand-dads' admonition: Only a poor musician blames his instrument.

Thanks all. Oh, and btw, now there are two Martin owners here. How many does it take to get your own manufacturer forum? 

JUST KIDDING! 

Thanks!

Mark


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## 4GSR

Mark,

I think those ways are in a tad better shape from the pictures above than what we spoke of over the phone this morning.

Ken


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## markamerica

4gsr said:


> Mark,
> 
> I think those ways are in a tad better shape from the pictures above than what we spoke of over the phone this morning.
> 
> Ken


Well, I'll take that...LOL Good news is good news. This goes back to what Splat said on page one of this thread: I'm a newb. How well can I judge it? You were relying on my eyes. I was trying to be accurate.

Anyways, so still a good choice, I hope.

Thanks!


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## martik777

Congrats on your new lathe! 

Best to see how well it holds a tolerance once you get it running, then decide what , if anything, to do about those ways.

I had a similar ridge near the headstock resulting in .003 of taper over 2", which could be compensated for, but was still a PITA.  What I ended up doing was planing the bed myself
using the unworn tailstock ways as a datum. Building a planer jig from the tailstock base is relatively simple, but you will need a compound or cross slide to duplicate the angle  of the v way.
If you are interested I can give more details later.  I thing 4gsr built one of these for a grinder, I found planing much easier. 

There are other ways to work around that worn area: 
1. Set up a steady rest and work further from the chuck end.
2. Build a chuck extension
3. Move the headstock down past the worn area. 
4. With such a long bed you could even set up a second headstock further down the bed!


----------



## JimDawson

That's a lot of lathe! Looks to be in pretty good shape.


----------



## markamerica

martik777 said:


> Congrats on your new lathe!
> 
> Best to see how well it holds a tolerance once you get it running, then decide what , if anything, to do about those ways.
> 
> I had a similar ridge near the headstock resulting in .003 of taper over 2", which could be compensated for, but was still a PITA.  What I ended up doing was planing the bed myself
> using the unworn tailstock ways as a datum. Building a planer jig from the tailstock base is relatively simple, but you will need a compound or cross slide to duplicate the angle  of the v way.
> If you are interested I can give more details later.  I thing 4gsr built one of these for a grinder, I found planing much easier.
> 
> There are other ways to work around that worn area:
> 1. Set up a steady rest and work further from the chuck end.
> 2. Build a chuck extension
> 3. Move the headstock down past the worn area.
> 4. With such a long bed you could even set up a second headstock further down the bed!



Yes, I figure I'll have to either learn to work around it or do something more "radical." I guess my priorities at this point are getting it home and then getting it running so I can see how bad it hurts me as it is.



JimDawson said:


> That's a lot of lathe! Looks to be in pretty good shape.



It's a whole lot of lathe.  And then, for all my talk about the requirement for a taper attachment, I didn't even take pictures of this one, apparently. (Could have sworn I did.) It's a rather nice unit. I've been spending some time thinking about how I could make it movable in my shop. Problem is, once I hire lift to offload it, once it's there, it's *there *unless I come up with something first.  Thoughts?


----------



## JimDawson

markamerica said:


> I've been spending some time thinking about how I could make it movable in my shop.



You could put it on wheels.  I have a 5000 lb milling machine sitting out in my shop that is on castors, it actually moves pretty easy.  You could do something similar.  You would still want leveling screws for the lathe, but raise the screws and it would allow it to move around.  I assume it wouldn't be moved often.


----------



## wrmiller

Yea Jim!


----------



## markamerica

JimDawson said:


> You could put it on wheels.  I have a 5000 lb milling machine sitting out in my shop that is on castors, it actually moves pretty easy.  You could do something similar.  You would still want leveling screws for the lathe, but raise the screws and it would allow it to move around.  I assume it wouldn't be moved often.
> 
> View attachment 136181


Jim, That's exactly what I was thinking. If I build a frame, say out of 4x4 square tube, put a collection of heavy duty casters on it, and also a collection of jack-screw feet, I could do that very thing. I think it wouldn't move often in the long run, but initially, as I'm getting my shop the way I want it, and as I work on the lathe itself, the ability to reposition it, pull it away from the wall to work behind it, and all of that would be indispensable and highly utilitarian. The only thing I worry about is height. On the other hand, I'm a tall fella, so that may not be too much of an issue. Playing with it yesterday, I felt like I'd be happier with the carriage wheel being about 6 inches higher anyway.  I think the trick would be to build it so that a.) it's sturdy enough, b.) it's not constantly in the way, and c.) so it doesn't raise it up too much. I even thought about how if I used nested square tube, I could make the casters on the front side be mounted on removable outriggers so that once it's in place, and I've leveled it on its feet, I could pull the front caster outriggers and get them out of my way. If I needed to move it, slide 'em back in, lock 'em down, raise up the screw jacks, and away we go... Well, slowly of course... I might be over-engineering it, but here's a very, very rough, not-to-scale drawing:



Main rails are black, cross rails dark blue, removable outrigger beams red, casters green, jackscrews orange, pedestals of lathe in light blue. Again, not to scale, just spit-balling. Would probably extend main rails on ends enough to give my end jack screws two welded surfaces inside the corner.  Again, just spit-balling. Advantage of under-slinging the main beams here is that I reduce the amount of raising I'm doing to the height of the casters, and not the casters PLUS the height of the beam. These casters would be 6" diameter, 1200lb each capacity, overall height of 7-1/2, so that's how much I'd be raising the lathe, plus whatever amount of leveling. As I said, I'd make the front side caster outriggers removable so that after leveling, I could pull them out and get them out of the way. The ones on the back side would stay, though again, there's be no weight on them unless I was moving it.  Does this look feasible to you?

Thanks!

Edited to add: The only additional thing I might do here is break the main beams just to the right of the headstock pedestal, and nest them together, sort of like the outriggers for the front, the idea being that if I decided the bed was intolerably worn, and wanted to pull it all apart so I could take the bed to be ground, I could effectively slide the bed out, I think. I'll have to look more closely at how the bed is joined to the headstock/gearbox, etc, and see if that's even feasible...


----------



## JimDawson

Looks perfectly feasible to me.   I like the idea of removable outriggers on the front side, you don't want to be tripping over them when operating.

I like the underslinging, lowers the CG, lathes are normally really top heavy.


----------



## markamerica

JimDawson said:


> Looks perfectly feasible to me.   I like the idea of removable outriggers on the front side, you don't want to be tripping over them when operating.
> 
> I like the underslinging, lowers the CG, lathes are normally really top heavy.



Yeah, I just have to make sure my welding is up to snuff... Would be terrible to set the lathe on it and have the bottom fall out...LOL Of course, once in position, with leveling screws jacking it up, all the weight goes back on the main beams directly. So if I'm not being lazy and leaving the weight on the casters for an extended period, all the weight should remain on the main beams 99.9% of the time(any time it's not being moved.)


----------



## markamerica

BTW, do you know a good source for jack-feet that won't set me back a mortgage payment per? And what diameter do you think I'll need with a dozen of them supporting the load here? Figuring the weight of my frame plus the weight of the lathe, 7500-8000 lbs? 

Thanks Jim!

Mark


----------



## JimDawson

I would just use whatever size is in there now, proabaly metric.  I normally use grade 8 US or 12.9 Metric all-thread for jack screws.  A 5/8 or 1/2 inch thick, 4x4 steel plate under them works well.  I normally put a divot in the plate with a drill bit that is a little larger than the jack screw just to keep it from walking around.


----------



## markamerica

JimDawson said:


> I would just use whatever size is in there now, proabaly metric.  I normally use grade 8 US or 12.9 Metric all-thread for jack screws.  A 5/8 or 1/2 inch thick, 4x4 steel plate under them works well.  I normally put a divot in the plate with a drill bit that is a little larger than the jack screw just to keep it from walking around.


Yeah, what I was thinking about was some pipe flange studs, something in the range of 1"-1-1/4". Sometimes you can find lots of them for not too much...relatively.


----------



## markamerica

JimDawson said:


> I would just use whatever size is in there now, proabaly metric.  I normally use grade 8 US or 12.9 Metric all-thread for jack screws.  A 5/8 or 1/2 inch thick, 4x4 steel plate under them works well.  I normally put a divot in the plate with a drill bit that is a little larger than the jack screw just to keep it from walking around.



The other thing I was thinking about that's really advantageous with my removable front outriggers: When not in use, I could use them elsewhere, for instance if I wanted a similar arrangement for a Bridgeport/clone to what you have. Once it's in place, I could again crank down the leveling screws, pull the outriggers, and boom. Done. In a sense, with six removable outriggers I could use for any machine in the shop, I make it all movable and minimize the number of casters I'm buying. Same CG-lowering underslung construction across the board, and same basic approach to all the machines. Make sense? I think I like it, conceptually.


----------



## markamerica

JimDawson said:


> I would just use whatever size is in there now, proabaly metric.  I normally use grade 8 US or 12.9 Metric all-thread for jack screws.  A 5/8 or 1/2 inch thick, 4x4 steel plate under them works well.  I normally put a divot in the plate with a drill bit that is a little larger than the jack screw just to keep it from walking around.



Jim, One other quick question: Do you think 1/4" wall thickness will be sufficient on my square tube? I think it would be, only because the 3 pedestals will be supported all around their perimeters, and the long lengths of the main beams spanning between the pedestals will really only provide tie-together for the whole structure, aka alignment. I could just as easily build three independent dollies, but thought having it all tied together in the manner above would make it all a bit simpler when setting the lathe onto it.


----------



## JimDawson

Given the way it's supported, I think 1/4 wall would be fine.  You're not going to have that much weight at any single point.


----------



## markamerica

JimDawson said:


> Given the way it's supported, I think 1/4 wall would be fine.  You're not going to have that much weight at any single point.



Jim,

Good, that's what I was thinking.  I looked at some of the other rolling items I have and how they're constructed, how much weight they bear, and decided it should be fine, but then I thought: "Hmm, but I've never done one on this scale..." and figured a second (or third or twentieth) opinion might be a good idea.

Thanks again!

Mark


----------



## bfd

lets look at some intangebles: older lathes mostly have slower speed limits, the thread lead screw is also the carriage feed rod AND if equipped the crossfeed rod. higher wear on one item. as far as metric threads  goes you caN add tHe 127 tooth gear which can be quite large mayh not fit in the back gear cover, there are other choices of gearing set ups avail. but some metric set ups require you to stop the lathe and back out the tool bit reverse the lathe and bring it back to the start and repeat the process over you can never release the half nut until threads are completed. we have some newer leblond lathes at work that do tHat and my frejoth Chinese lathe did the same thing. my existing enco threacs metric and standard normally. the new Chinese junk stuff has 3 rods on the front thread, long and cross feed and remote on off switch. I too wish for a taper attachment but I have owned a lathe for some 40 years and have done without. bore size is nice but 2" is big and maybe not required.  find what will do and move up whenabsolutly required. my dimes worth bill


----------



## bfd

beg borrow or steal a pallet jack build a cribbing frame up from underneath the ways and use the tailstock and or carriage  to balance the load. remove the chippan. worked for me. ps don't steal a pallet jack just kidding here. do you have an electrician friend. with his help you can rewire your lathe controls. I changed a 3 phase 7.5 hp. lathe to a single phase 7.5 hp. lathe works great except you give up instant reverse, you have to wait for the cent switch to reset before you can reverse rotation. the old ways were cast iron good cast iron but most likely not induction hardened this process gives you a lot more resistance to wear. your lathe looks similar to mine and appears to be hardened so it looks good. your thinking about way wear changing the od of the oart being machined is good but it should be a minimal radius change. boy am I long winded bill


----------



## markamerica

Bill, thanks for all the info! You're not long-winded. Look at one of my posts... Now that babble-fest is long-winded.  Judging by the amperage on the data plate for this motor, I'd guess it's around 15 HP. When I go looking at specs on 3 phase motors, one with a rating of 38-40amps at 240v is usually a 15 horse. 

Does this lathe even do instant reverse? I don't know, newbie that I am. If so, will it work with a rotary phase converter?  I read somewhere you couldn't do that with a static phase converter, but don't know about rotary.

I'll be getting a rotary converter soon. I figure I'll need one that will start a 15hp at most. 

Anyway, I'd like to start figuring out that stuff a little. It will be a bit before it runs. Who knows what I'll end up needing? I expect probably a transformer for the controls, relays, blah blah blah. Basically, all new electrics, maybe including motor.

Thanks!

Mark


----------



## JimDawson

markamerica said:


> Does this lathe even do instant reverse? I don't know, newbie that I am. If so, will it work with a rotary phase converter? I read somewhere you couldn't do that with a static phase converter, but don't know about rotary.



That's a lot of rotating mass to instant reverse, but the lathe will probably do it.  There is a good chance that reverse on that lathe is accomplished by a mechanical clutch rather than reversing the motor.  Pretty sure the For/Nut/Rev is mechanical on that lathe.

You can instant reverse a 3 phase motor with a RPC and you can do it with a static phase converter also, at least I've been doing it for the last 20 years on my 3hp lathe.  There are very few machining operations where you need instant reverse, power tapping for instance.  But I normally plan the operation so I don't have to.


----------



## markamerica

JimDawson said:


> That's a lot of rotating mass to instant reverse, but the lathe will probably do it.  There is a good chance that reverse on that lathe is accomplished by a mechanical clutch rather than reversing the motor.  Pretty sure the For/Nut/Rev is mechanical on that lathe.
> 
> You can instant reverse a 3 phase motor with a RPC and you can do it with a static phase converter also, at least I've been doing it for the last 20 years on my 3hp lathe.  There are very few machining operations where you need instant reverse, power tapping for instance.  But I normally plan the operation so I don't have to.



Jim, I'm glad you guys are here and built this place. I have sooooo much to learn.  So then let me ask, in what circumstances are instant reverse used, apart from power tapping, which you mentioned. Not that I have to worry about it at the moment... Just curiosity from a newb...

Thanks!

Mark


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## 4GSR

Mark,

I wouldn't instant reverse a motor on a gear head lathe period.  One way to wipe out some gear teeth in the headstock.  Look at your pictures of the electrics, if the big starter has two sets of contactors, then yoy have to reverse the motor.  If only one large contactor, then you have a reverse clutch built into the headstock.

Ken


----------



## JimDawson

I really can't think of another instance.  Metric threading may require reversing the spindle out of the cut without disengaging the half nut.  In the case of threading to a shoulder, I normally turn the tool upside down, and run the lathe backwards so it is cutting away from the shoulder.

Ken is correct, in general it not a good idea.  If I have to reverse I let it coast down and then reverse.


----------



## markamerica

Ken, based on what I can figure out so far, and looking at a schematic for a much older version of the lathe, I'm guessing it's a single contactor, but won't know for sure until I can more fully examine it. Besides, I think some of the electrics are missing. Not sure, and won't know now for a couple weeks. 

Jim, I think I understand what you're saying. Interesting.  I am very anxious to be able to make my trip and round up my lathe. It's paid for, sitting there, waiting...  That's okay. I have to go get some steel for my dolly/cart thing anyway. Won't unload it from the trailer until that's built. And won't be able to easily go by the steel shop without the trailer, so...

Get my steel, order my casters and hardware, work on getting a phase converter, figure out wiring on that... Then unload the lathe from the trailer onto the cart... Then begin figuring out the wiring/contactors/motor and other electrical issues... Maybe by Thanksgiving I'll have a running lathe? Or maybe a little optimistic... 

Lots of cleaning to do. Tons. Big project, but I have to say, I enjoy such things a good deal.

Thanks!

Mark


----------



## markamerica

Onward to the electrical: I've been doing some more research, and I've found a few pictures of a '69 DLZ 503 for comparison because it's so favorably in many respects.  There are differences. Let me post a few pictures for discussion. These are snagged from a site called "exapro.com" which I take it is a listing site dealing in used machinery.  Again, this is a '69 DLZ 503:


On the front, I notice the item up top(Box 1)... What is that. Looks like a gauge of some sort.  Box 2, I point only only to contrast to the machine I purchase, where the red and black dots indicating the ranges are situated more like a "V" with respect to the shifter fulcrum. This one, it forms a right-leaned "V".  Interesting difference, but I'm sure insignificant.  In Box 3, you see here two buttons and an indicator lamp, I suppose to tell you the machine is on.  On and off switches to its left.  On mine, there are two additional switches to the left of these three items, one for "Lamp" and one for "Coolant Pump", using iconography of a lightbulb and a faucet, respectively.  Lastly, one of the subtler differences is this sheet metal that covers the belts et al on the end of the machine. If you look at box 4, you'll see the sheet metal is smoothly rolled over the corner on that slope.  On mine, it's a hard corner.

Now, where it gets interesting:


Box number 1 is a cover that is present on mine, and seems to cover the end of a splined shaft that 4GSR has speculated is some sort of accessory drive.  Interestingly, this seems to be (one of)the thing(s) that makes the difference between a 502 and a 503. When I look at pictures of the respective models on Google, those with this cover are all 503s and those without are 502s. Box number 2 is completely absent on my machine, and I suspect that's where all my missing electrical pieces would go.  That's a guess.  Seems reasonable.  Maybe they took it off to look at the motor, or maybe it got damaged somewhere, or who knows, but it certainly isn't present on the machine I inspected Saturday.  Box number 3 is a cover, and what it covers is this: (on mine, and I suspect on this one from exapro.com as well):


(I must have smudged the camera lens on my phone, because from about four pictures before this, every one after is cloudy/murky like this...I blame grease and grime.)
The four red boxes in a row at the top are labeled R S T N. I expect those are the three phase wires, plus neutral. Just out of frame here, is a ground wire that comes from the same bundle and bolts to the chassis directly to this component's right.  The box to the lower left is to show that a chunk of the plastic of the component's housing is knocked off, broken, and probably has been that way for some time.

Lastly, this is the data plate on the motor on mine:




I can tell this is almost certainly the original motor because the use of commas in place of decimal points is a German thing. This is one time when being married to a native of Bavaria comes in handy. So 220/440v, 38.76/19.38 amps, 60HZ, 1750 RPM, and what the rest means, I have only guesses.  If I had to tell you the physical frame, I'd guess it's very similar to 254T, based on the spread of the mounts and the size of the shaft(though I didn't measure the latter.)

Now my speculation would be that this lathe was probably taken out of service whenever that box disappeared. If the box was removed to access the motor, which is missing its electrical cover plate, then there's a pretty good chance the motor is toast.  To remove the motor, you'd almost certainly have to remove that electrical box.  Heck, to see the data plate pictured above, you'd have a hard time with that box in place over the motor.

So, for all you experienced hands, what can you discern from all of this?

Thanks!

Mark


----------



## markamerica

By the way, one more question: I assume these motors can be rebuilt/refurbished. Any of the Texans here know anybody who does that?

I found one outfit in Waco, looking for closer.... But again, a little ahead of myself yet.


Thanks!


----------



## Bamban

markamerica said:


> By the way, one more question: I assume these motors can be rebuilt/refurbished. Any of the Texans here know anybody who does that?
> 
> I found one outfit in Waco, looking for closer.... But again, a little ahead of myself yet.
> 
> 
> Thanks!




How far are you from Austin? Contact these folks.  http://hamilton-electric.com/


----------



## markamerica

Bamban said:


> How far are you from Austin? Contact these folks.  http://hamilton-electric.com/


Bamban, my Missus drives there once per week. Telecommutes the rest of the time. From our driveway, around 70 miles, just depending on exact location.

Thank you, I'll check them out.

Mark


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## bfd

consider using rubber machine mounting feet made for mounting purposes. not too expensive. they are based on machine weight. level easily ab absorb vibration.


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## 4GSR

Mark,
The electrical box indicated as "2" may/will vary from lathe to lathe that was built.  They may build fifty of them as shown in the posted picture and then five that have a different electrical enclosure and components.  And there's a very good chance that the panel and electrics was changed out over the years.  've seen this many times over the years past.  As for the "auxiliary" shaft, that could of been an option that was supplied on the lathe you have too.
Ken


----------



## Tony Wells

That lathe reminds me very much of one I ran back in the early 80's, I have a name in mind but not sure about the spelling and google suggestions that lead to lathes are not bringing me the right pics. I'll keep hunting. As I remember it, it was built in Romania. There was a couple of factory reps who came in to replace a noisy gear or bearing. They didn't speak much English as I recall. If it's basically the same lathe, it's a hoss. There aren't that many machines with the oil bubble on top like that, but the one I ran had one. Surely it's from the same family. It's long gone from the shop it was in then. We wore it out in about 5 years, but it was really, really pushed hard. Oilfield money was good at the time right before that crash, so we were busy busy. I'll keep looking and maybe I'll get the name right.

Seems like you came away with a good machine. There are plenty of ways to work around most wear on a lathe. I can't really understand the popular fascination folks seem to have with putting their machines on wheels though. I do understand those who have to share a space with a car, or really have limited room, but I am just used to larger, heavier machines that are intended to be stationary. In my mind, I guess I connect precision with stability and even though I know people use jack bolts to get the weight back where it belongs, somehow it just seems wrong to me. Must work out ok though, lots of people do it. I'm just not one of them. I work hard to get my machines sitting where and how I want. I'm not anxious to move them lol.


----------



## markamerica

4gsr said:


> Mark,
> The electrical box indicated as "2" may/will vary from lathe to lathe that was built.  They may build fifty of them as shown in the posted picture and then five that have a different electrical enclosure and components.  And there's a very good chance that the panel and electrics was changed out over the years.  've seen this many times over the years past.  As for the "auxiliary" shaft, that could of been an option that was supplied on the lathe you have too.
> Ken


Ken, Now that I know to look for it, I basically can't find a DLZ picture that doesn't have some form of that box, and most of them, exactly that box. As near as I can tell from the breakdown of the models, the 50x has 50cm of swing, the 60x, 60cm, and the 70x, 70cm.  I haven't figured out what the 2, or 3 means. At first, I thought it might refer to the bed length, but then it became clear that wasn't the point of differentiation, because I found vary lengths as 502 or 503 or whatever. So I'm still not certain what that last digit denotes.  But I'm pretty certain about the 50,60 and 70. Now, there are a bunch of somewhat smaller Martin lathes I see called "KM" series which is, as far as I can tell, just "K. Martin," and those don't seem to have that same panel, either having one smaller that isn't visible from all the front views I've looked at, or don't have one at all. 

I'm certain model year revisions happen constantly.  Thing is, I look at certain parts, and from as far back as the 1950s to the late 70s, and even early 80s, some things, like the beds, seem not to have undergone any major change at all, except that the very late models seem to have the addition of the removable gap. In any event, it's an interesting thing to study. 

Thanks!

Mark


----------



## markamerica

Tony Wells said:


> That lathe reminds me very much of one I ran back in the early 80's, I have a name in mind but not sure about the spelling and google suggestions that lead to lathes are not bringing me the right pics. I'll keep hunting. As I remember it, it was built in Romania. There was a couple of factory reps who came in to replace a noisy gear or bearing. They didn't speak much English as I recall. If it's basically the same lathe, it's a hoss. There aren't that many machines with the oil bubble on top like that, but the one I ran had one. Surely it's from the same family. It's long gone from the shop it was in then. We wore it out in about 5 years, but it was really, really pushed hard. Oilfield money was good at the time right before that crash, so we were busy busy. I'll keep looking and maybe I'll get the name right.
> 
> Seems like you came away with a good machine. There are plenty of ways to work around most wear on a lathe. I can't really understand the popular fascination folks seem to have with putting their machines on wheels though. I do understand those who have to share a space with a car, or really have limited room, but I am just used to larger, heavier machines that are intended to be stationary. In my mind, I guess I connect precision with stability and even though I know people use jack bolts to get the weight back where it belongs, somehow it just seems wrong to me. Must work out ok though, lots of people do it. I'm just not one of them. I work hard to get my machines sitting where and how I want. I'm not anxious to move them lol.



Tony, thanks!  As far as the moving of the machine and a rolling cart/dolly, I understand your misgivings. Truthfully, in an ideal situation, mine wouldn't move either.  That said, the amount of concrete floor space I have is very limited. This lathe will take up a sixth of my workshop floor-space, more or less. Because of that, I'm not going to be able to put a lot of unused space behind the machine, which will mean if I have to work on the back side, I'll need to be able to pull it farther from the wall to give me some working clearance.  It won't move often once I have it all cleaned up and running right, but the occasion will come in which that will be necessary.  Not ideal, I agree, but more a matter of surrendering to the reality with which I'm confronted, and finding the best way to confront it. Truth is, in a shop the size of mine, equipment will get juggled frequently(though I expect the lathe will move least frequently,) because to make things work out, I have to economize on the way I use space. 40 acres of ground, but only 748square feet of concrete, and that includes the barn's center aisle and the storeroom on the other side.  Once walled in, hopefully by Christmas/New Year, the interior dimensions of the shop will be 16x16x12.  By the time I through a Bridgeport in there, and my Synchrowave 350, and a couple of bench drill presses, and a work table large enough to be usable, and tool boxes, and on and on, it's going to be tight. The compressor will go across the aisle in the storeroom, because it can be all loud and noisy with two walls between me and it, and I won't care. I'm going to put the Miller Bobcat in a pull-out compartment on the other side, so I can draw it out into the aisle to run, and then stow and secure back in its pocket when not in use.  Point is, I really do agree: A lathe shouldn't be shuttled around like a beverage cart on an airplane. On the other hand, to retain the ability to move it, I'm going to put it on a cart, one that will be resting on jack-screws 99.9% of the time.  The cart exists for that unavoidable .1%

So far, nearly every lathe I've run across with the oil bubble seems to be either German or Eastern/Central European in origin.  

Speaking of things I don't understand, take a look at this picture from inside the gearbox. The items of interest are a couple of copper strands that are set into grooves around the circumference of the spindle. What do they do? What are they for?  Here, see inside the two red polygons(at center, and at lower left):



Thanks!

Mark


----------



## Tony Wells

Note that the wire runs through the slot in that screw. It's simply a means to prevent that screw from backing out.In a gearbox, sometimes locking compounds don't hold up well to certain oils, or they are undesirable for other reasons. But it's hard to beat the simplicity of a copper wire which, incidentally is soft enough not to hurt anything if it happened to get loose in the transmission.


----------



## 4GSR

Doing a little internet searching, found this page on a bit of Martin history.  They have been around for over 150 years!

http://www.bo.de/wirtschaft/wirtschaft-regional/witzig-frank-das-stehaufmaennchen-feiert

Here's a link in H-M

http://hobby-machinist.com/threads/purchased-old-martin-lathe-made-in-germany.45586/

Here's a page  from P-M forum

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-and-history/martin-lathe-318177/

Ken


----------



## markamerica

Tony Wells said:


> Note that the wire runs through the slot in that screw. It's simply a means to prevent that screw from backing out.In a gearbox, sometimes locking compounds don't hold up well to certain oils, or they are undesirable for other reasons. But it's hard to beat the simplicity of a copper wire which, incidentally is soft enough not to hurt anything if it happened to get loose in the transmission.


So kind of a lacing wire? That's odd. Why copper?

Thanks!

Mark


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## markamerica

4gsr said:


> Doing a little internet searching, found this page on a bit of Martin history.  They have been around for over 150 years!
> 
> http://www.bo.de/wirtschaft/wirtschaft-regional/witzig-frank-das-stehaufmaennchen-feiert
> 
> Here's a link in H-M
> 
> http://hobby-machinist.com/threads/purchased-old-martin-lathe-made-in-germany.45586/
> 
> Here's a page  from P-M forum
> 
> http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-and-history/martin-lathe-318177/
> 
> Ken


Ken, thanks, I've read a couple of those. It's an interesting thing. I'm going to get my wife to translate that first one for me though...LOL  Two of them relate to Martin W's lathe. I've been corresponding with him. He's been a wealth of info and assistance.

150 years is a long time for anything to last in the modern age. 

Asked my wife to call around the steel shops and get some pricing on my dolly metal.  Sheesh, prices continue to go through the roof. 

Oh well, that's progress, right?

Thanks again!

Mark


----------



## markamerica

Found this, may help with the electrical. It's a picture from inside the electrical enclosure on the back of a Martin DLZ503:


Don't think it's all stock.
Thanks!

Mark


----------



## Tony Wells

It's copper for one reason I know of, and that's it will do no harm should it get loose and tangled up in the gears.


----------



## 4GSR

markamerica said:


> Found this, may help with the electrical. It's a picture from inside the electrical enclosure on the back of a Martin DLZ503:
> View attachment 136320
> 
> Don't think it's all stock.
> Thanks!
> 
> Mark


That's fairly new modern wiring per the DIN specifications.  It's readily available.  Nothing special there.  I say that....  I wouldn't tear any of it out just yet!  Changing the voltages out to 240 volt, may require a larger starter if the existing one is not big enough to handle 15 HP on 240 volt.  If it is big enough, just have to change out the heaters to the starter/contactor, if it has heaters.  Europeans use some strange stuff for heaters. Those things in the upper top left of the picture, may be them, I don't know.  If you decide to put different stuff in, give me a holler, I may have something here that will work.
Ken


----------



## markamerica

Here are two electrical schematics/drawings I've found, and annotated with translations from my frau.  Essentially, it looks like I'm going to have to cook up most of the contents of the box shown above, and as near as I can tell looking at the machine, they get arranged mostly like these two drawings. This may not come out right. If not, I'll figure out some other way to do it.






Okay:


----------



## markamerica

4gsr said:


> That's fairly new modern wiring per the DIN specifications.  It's readily available.  Nothing special there.  I say that....  I wouldn't tear any of it out just yet!  Changing the voltages out to 240 volt, may require a larger starter if the existing one is not big enough to handle 15 HP on 240 volt.  If it is big enough, just have to change out the heaters to the starter/contactor, if it has heaters.  Europeans use some strange stuff for heaters. Those things in the upper top left of the picture, may be them, I don't know.  If you decide to put different stuff in, give me a holler, I may have something here that will work.
> Ken


Ken,
I'm going to have to build it all from scratch. As far as I can tell, the only electrics on the lathe, anywhere, are the motor, the start and stop switch on the front, two broken switches that should be the lamp and the coolant pump, the oddball piece at the bottom of the headstock pedestal pictured above(the fuzzy picture). That's what I'm saying. The rest is absent. So I'm going to need to effectively build the whole electrical system. The only wiring on the lathe seems to be the cut off wires coming from the switch panel, and the cut off wires coming from the cooling pump socket on the back of the middle pedestal.  So basically, I'm starting from scratch.  I'm willing to assume that every electrical piece on the machine is bad, since there are few anyway. The only thing I hold out any hope of being okay is the motor, and that's a slim hope.

In terms of building the electrics from scratch, what I hope to do is to recreate all the functions if not the precise devices.  I'll wait until I have the machine here, but I think I've found viable replacements for all the switches on the front panel.  I don't know the first thing about what a 3 phase motor will require.  Starters, heater(?), contactors, relays, I don't know what I'll need or how to wire it up. All I know is that my object is to have: A cooling pump and lamp socket, powered by hitting a switch each on the front panel, a motor start switch, and a motor off switch, along with the emergency kill switch(which by the way looks very ad hoc on my machine, as if it was something added for import due to OSHA regs or maybe something added late in the model run... Not sure. Looks very ad hoc in its box on the front the way it's placed.

So basically, start by figuring on a start and stop circuit and whatever it takes to make the motor go. Accessory sockets can come later.  Whether I am able to use the existing motor, or have to buy a replacement or get that one repaired, it will be 240, 15hp. Once I get the lathe here, I'll look closer at the engine shaft. 

I'm more than happy to buy what I need so far as parts.  I just need to figure out a list and go with it.  So all you 3 phase electrical/machine electrical wizards put on your thinking caps. I've a whole electrical system to build, more or less.  I'll get an appropriately-sized enclosure for mounting in roughly the same place the original must have been. 

By the way, looking at the weather may have pushed up my schedule to go get the lathe and bring it home. There's nothing but rain in forecast after Friday for the following week.  We're just now dry enough I could get from the driveway to the barn.  My window may be Thursday-Friday this week. After that, who knows?  If that happens, and I come down Thursday or Friday, maybe a good chance to chat.

Thanks!

Mark


----------



## 4GSR

Mark,

Looking at the schematics you posted, I can come up with most of the things needed if wanted.  The big question will be, what kind of electrical panel box is there on the lathe, provided it has one?  If it does have a panel enclosure or "Hoffman enclosure",  what is in the box now and will you be able to use any of it?  The switch buttons on the front of the lathe are readily available, cheap!, off of eBay.  I probably have all of them in my surplus stuff. 
Let us know how you trip goes.  And if you have the time, give me a holler and I'll buy you lunch!  There's a half way decent Mexican food place a couple miles from Gene's Machine, on the same road, we can go eat at.  Ken


----------



## markamerica

4gsr said:


> Mark,
> 
> Looking at the schematics you posted, I can come up with most of the things needed if wanted.  The big question will be, what kind of electrical panel box is there on the lathe, provided it has one?  If it does have a panel enclosure or "Hoffman enclosure",  what is in the box now and will you be able to use any of it?  The switch buttons on the front of the lathe are readily available, cheap!, off of eBay.  I probably have all of them in my surplus stuff.
> Let us know how you trip goes.  And if you have the time, give me a holler and I'll buy you lunch!  There's a half way decent Mexican food place a couple miles from Gene's Machine, on the same road, we can go eat at.  Ken



Ken, that's what I'm saying: The whole electrical panel is gone. Not present. Nothing there. All there is is the motor itself, that one little Doodad under the small square cover, (fuzzy picture) and the switches. There IS nothing else. The picture of the enclosure with the DIN stuff above is just something I found googling as part of my research.  None of its contents are to be found anywhere on my lathe. None of it.
What's on my lathe:
Motor
Start and stop switch
Emergency kill switch
Coolant pump power receptacle
The snipped off wires from the switches and the receptacle.
That one broken piece under the cover at the bottom rear of the headstock pedestal. 
I knew it was missing stuff, but it wasn't until yesterday that I realized it's missing that whole enclosure off the back of the gear case. That's when it finally made sense that I couldn't find any transformer or relays or contractors or fuses or any of what is in the pretty, modernized enclosure a few posts above. It's just gone. That caused me to speculate that the reason it's gone is because the motor is toast. It would be hard to even examine that motor closely with that panel in place. 

As for lunch, I'm up for it. Just hope it's easy to get in and out of. LOL  if I make the trip Thursday, I'm going to try to make it early, leave here by 6-630, there by 9:00-930, loaded and chained by 930-1000, brunch/lunch and haul the mail. Get it backed in the barn and wait for my next dry spell to get somebody out to load it on my dolly/cart, which should be done by then.(and along with dry weather will define "then.") 

Once the Dolly's built and I'm waiting on a dry spell, I'll work the electrical. But I need to start gathering bits and pieces now.

Thanks!

Mark


----------



## JimDawson

Looks like C1 is the overload.  Since you have to start from scratch, I would just build the panel to NEMA standards, and add an E-stop button and a control power button.  The original had 220v control power to the panel buttons, that won't meet NEMA standards.  That is normal European control wiring.

I think Ken has it under control, you're in good hands there.


----------



## markamerica

JimDawson said:


> Looks like C1 is the overload.  Since you have to start from scratch, I would just build the panel to NEMA standards, and add an E-stop button and a control power button.  The original had 220v control power to the panel buttons, that won't meet NEMA standards.  That is normal European control wiring.
> 
> I think Ken has it under control, you're in good hands there.



Jim, Yessir, I think you're right, and I think that's why Martin W's lathe has a transformer that steps down to 120 for controls. It was an eye opener 30 years ago as a young soldier when I arrived in Germany and found standard wall socket voltage was 220. Had to buy a transformer for anything that couldn't do both. Thankfully, all the better stereo equipment in the PX would do both via a switch or simple rewiring.

I wonder if there wouldn't be some utility in placing a second e-stop button somewhere on the carriage. I say that because I read an article following a fatal incident with some poor girl who got her hair caught in a lead screw, was working alone, it all ended badly.

Since I will almost certainly be working alone 99% of the time... Now, I have only slightly longer than mil hair, and I know about loose clothing and such, but I also know bad things can happen easily at times. I tend to plan things to death, which usually permits me to avoid trouble, but if that were perfect, I wouldn't have accumulated so many scars and busted knuckles along the way. It's expedience that usually gets you. So yeah, I've got no problem with adding/maintaining safety features. 

I'm sure Ken will keep me in line... 

Thanks!

Mark


----------



## 4GSR

Crap!  
I didn't realized all of the electrics were removed from the machine.  Will have to watch for a Hoffman enclosure about 24" square by at least 9" deep, 12" would be ideal, 6" might work, but of you came back later and wanted to install a VFD, wouldn't be enough room for it!  I'm on the road today heading back to Victoria.  Give me a holler in the morning.  I may still be wiped out from my trip, just depends on how traffic is, going down IH35 today.  Ken


----------



## markamerica

Try this one on for size. We found a company in Germany that still sells parts for the Martin DLZ. I asked my wife to find out what they have for available parts. She sent them an email, and the response was waiting on her this morning. They wanted model and sn, but for the parts list of what's available, they also want 60Euro. Ouch.

Mark


----------



## markamerica

4gsr said:


> Crap!
> I didn't realized all of the electrics were removed from the machine.  Will have to watch for a Hoffman enclosure about 24" square by at least 9" deep, 12" would be ideal, 6" might work, but of you came back later and wanted to install a VFD, wouldn't be enough room for it!  I'm on the road today heading back to Victoria.  Give me a holler in the morning.  I may still be wiped out from my trip, just depends on how traffic is, going down IH35 today.  Ken


Yeah, the whole thing is gone. What will a VFD give me? I'm willing to hang a bigger box if I know what I'm planning for.

Thanks!

Mark


----------



## Tony Wells

VFD basically is a variable speed electrical control with programmable accel/decel profiles, and reversing. IMO, with that machine you don't need the reverse. That motor will run (in its original configuration) in one direction, with reversing of the spindle coming from the gearbox. As far as the accel/decel that's a nicety, but hardly a necessity. A VFD can be set up with a brake, but their main claim to fame in the hobby world is the ability to run 3 phase equipment on single phase. HOWEVER, the size VFD for a 15 hp motor will be pretty healthy, and priced to match. You said you did not have native 3 phase, correct? Another issue you will need to address is the current draw for a motor that size. Even with 230/240 available, how much current? You're probably looking at ~40 amps continuous on that motor. It's on the plate if the plate is still there. That's another major factor in sizing a VFD. We have some here who are very well versed on VGD applications.

I personally am not a huge proponent of VFD's, but some people are. I have been around them and used them on a few things, up to 250 hp, so I do have some experience with them. On machine tools, I must have some bit of purist in my heart.....I like to see them as designed, for the most part.


----------



## markamerica

Tony Wells said:


> VFD basically is a variable speed electrical control with programmable accel/decel profiles, and reversing. IMO, with that machine you don't need the reverse. That motor will run (in its original configuration) in one direction, with reversing of the spindle coming from the gearbox. As far as the accel/decel that's a nicety, but hardly a necessity. A VFD can be set up with a brake, but their main claim to fame in the hobby world is the ability to run 3 phase equipment on single phase. HOWEVER, the size VFD for a 15 hp motor will be pretty healthy, and priced to match. You said you did not have native 3 phase, correct? Another issue you will need to address is the current draw for a motor that size. Even with 230/240 available, how much current? You're probably looking at ~40 amps continuous on that motor. It's on the plate if the plate is still there. That's another major factor in sizing a VFD. We have some here who are very well versed on VGD applications.
> 
> I personally am not a huge proponent of VFD's, but some people are. I have been around them and used them on a few things, up to 250 hp, so I do have some experience with them. On machine tools, I must have some bit of purist in my heart.....I like to see them as designed, for the most part.


 
Tony, 
My plan had been to buy a rotary phase converter large enough to handle this lathe, knowing anything else I'll have that's 3 phase will have a lower power requirement.  The RPC I've been looking at should give me what I need, but requires a sixty amp breaker in my panel. I'll have to buy one. Plenty of room for it, both in terms of physical space and total amperage. You're right on the amperage, or close enough. The motor currently on the lathe is right at 39 amps, and the replacements I've looked at are all within 1amp of that either way. It's just what it takes to run a 15HP motor, so no surprises there.  Looking around as I've had a spare moment or two, I notice there are other limitations on a VFD. I'm really thinking my best option will be the RPC sized for my needs. Wire up a circuit for it, let me power whichever machine I need at the time, and go on with it. Of course, I'm always open to other arguments.

Thanks again!

Mark


----------



## markamerica

4gsr said:


> Crap!
> I didn't realized all of the electrics were removed from the machine.  Will have to watch for a Hoffman enclosure about 24" square by at least 9" deep, 12" would be ideal, 6" might work, but of you came back later and wanted to install a VFD, wouldn't be enough room for it!  I'm on the road today heading back to Victoria.  Give me a holler in the morning.  I may still be wiped out from my trip, just depends on how traffic is, going down IH35 today.  Ken



Ken,

Looks like I'll be heading to Victoria in the morning... Going to try to get out of here at 630 just so I've turned South before the sun comes up. I drive East to Cameron, and directly South down 77.

So yeah, I want to be South bound before that big yellow orb makes driving suck. I'll holler at you when I get to Gene's. Then I'll get loaded. That way if you're up to it, and aren't too done-in from today's drive, we can have brunch/lunch or something.

Thanks!

Mark


----------



## 4GSR

markamerica said:


> Ken,
> 
> Looks like I'll be heading to Victoria in the morning... Going to try to get out of here at 630 just so I've turned South before the sun comes up. I drive East to Cameron, and directly South down 77.
> 
> So yeah, I want to be South bound before that big yellow orb makes driving suck. I'll holler at you when I get to Gene's. Then I'll get loaded. That way if you're up to it, and aren't too done-in from today's drive, we can have brunch/lunch or something.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Mark


Yeah,
Watch out for the cop in Lexington, cost me $$$  back in May.  Ouch!!!
Call me when you get here, if I can break loose, I'll come meet you at Gene's Machine.
I've have a full plate of stuff I got to get done in the next day or so.
Ken


----------



## Martin W

Hi Mark
The lathe is reversed in the gear box. The motor runs one direction all the time. There should be 3 arms with handles along the length of the lathe for forward and reverse and braking. Sorry I have been busy, I forgot to get you the size. The electrical box is 26" wide x 14" high x 8-1/2" deep. My guess was way off. 
I run mine on a 10 hp rotary Phase converter and a 600 volt step up transformer. It should really be a 15 hp phase converter but I had this one and it is working just fine
Cheers
Martin


----------



## markamerica

4gsr said:


> Yeah,
> Watch out for the cop in Lexington, cost me $$$  back in May.  Ouch!!!
> Call me when you get here, if I can break loose, I'll come meet you at Gene's Machine.
> I've have a full plate of stuff I got to get done in the next day or so.
> Ken



Ken, I had to wrestle with a trailer light issue since my last post. Now I get to check all the tire pressures. Joy. Better now than down the road. I'll watch for the guy in Lexington. Hauling the trailer, I probably won't run afoul anyway.  I'll holler at you when I get there.

Thanks!

Mark


----------



## markamerica

Martin W said:


> Hi Mark
> The lathe is reversed in the gear box. The motor runs one direction all the time. There should be 3 arms with handles along the length of the lathe for forward and reverse and braking. Sorry I have been busy, I forgot to get you the size. The electrical box is 26" wide x 14" high x 8-1/2" deep. My guess was way off.
> I run mine on a 10 hp rotary Phase converter and a 600 volt step up transformer. It should really be a 15 hp phase converter but I had this one and it is working just fine
> Cheers
> Martin



Martin, no harm no foul. It looks like impending bad weather has forced me into an earlier run to get the beast than I thought. I'll look for a box around those numbers, as I'm going to have to build from scratch. Ken's been kind enough to volunteer to help me get it built right.   I'll be doing the rotary phase converter too, unless somebody can convince me of a better idea.  All reports I read on them suggest better reliability.... But maybe that's hype too. I guess we'll see. I kind of like the nifty neat arrangement shown in that one updated box on page three of this thread. That's nifty.I think I'll shoot for something kinda sorta like that. 

Thanks again!

Mark


----------



## 4GSR

Met with Mark for a few minutes this morning.  He has a decent looking lathe there.  Will need some work to get it running again.  That old lathe is heavier than it looks! He has a load on his hands!  Hopefully he has a safe trip back home! Ken


----------



## 12bolts

Mark, the gauge on top is most likely a tachometer

Cheers Phil


----------



## markamerica

4gsr said:


> Met with Mark for a few minutes this morning.  He has a decent looking lathe there.  Will need some work to get it running again.  That old lathe is heavier than it looks! He has a load on his hands!  Hopefully he has a safe trip back home! Ken


Ken is an awesome guy! Lathe on trailer in barn. Home in 1 piece.  New info revealed on lathe, more on all of that later. Right now, shower and grub.

Thanks! 

Mark


----------



## markamerica

12bolts said:


> Mark, the gauge on top is most likely a tachometer
> 
> Cheers Phil


Phil, that's what it is: Spindle RPM. I know the one I bought once had one based on the mount holes on the lid.

More about this and other stuff later.

Thanks!


----------



## markamerica

All right, so now the lathe is here. It will be some time before  it's operational.  I'm going to give it some TLC, and I'm going to have to complete rebuild the electrics.  I'm even going to need to find a Hoffman Enclosure in which to put it all.  I may well have to get a new motor. All of these things were understood before purchase. Before I get to all the new info, I want to make sure to give thanks to all who've been so helpful to this point.  Ken(4gsr) has been extraordinarily helpful. He even showed up to meet me, but it had taken me a wee bit longer to get there than I had expected, and it was clear that my tire pressure gauge(that I ran around with in the dark last night) is a cheapster, and probably off, or I managed to way mis-read it. Not knowing which, I grabbed it after I got home and sure as heck, it was off by almost double.  I thought I had 75psi in each, but I really had around 35.  I slow-hauled to Discount Tire on the Southbound side of 77, as Ken suggested, and they fixed me up in about 5 minutes. I offered to pay for the service, but they refused payment. So really, great idea for close air, Ken, and good to know DT is good on customer service.  They're usually very good here, in Temple, so I guess I'm not surprised. Just nice to see that every location I've been to, they're quite helpful.  So kudos to those guys.  

Also, kudos to the guys at Gene's Machine in Victoria.  They originally listed the lathe, not the original owner of the lathe apparently, and they didn't realize when they listed it that it wasn't working and would need a ton of repairs.  In the end, they sold it to me at a very deep discount from their original listing price, and they were helpful and receptive when I came down for my inspection this past Saturday, and they helped me load out the machine very quickly.  I know they're selling a couple other older lathes, and as they behaved and dealt with me throughout this purchase, I'd recommend them.  

Ken took a look at the wear on the ways, and it was pretty much like I said, and we noted a few other things.  Then I shared with him some news that I got just before pulling in.  My wife, a native German, had been doing me the favor of communicating on my behalf with the outfit that still sells parts for these lathes.  (They also ask 60 euro for the parts list...) Anyway, they contacted her after I'd provided the serial number to her at their request.  It turns out, this was among the very last handful of Martin DLZs ever built.  It came originally with the spindle RPM gauge/meter, and it came with an electromagnetic brake.  Like many products of that era labeled "made in Germany," final assembly of the last several years worth was actually accomplished in Romania.  Who was that, earlier in this thread, speculating as to this point?  So anyway, that was interesting, but here's the deal on the electromagnetic brake. It's not part of the official partslist, but they DO have parts for it. Apparently, it was a late production-run change in what turned out to be the last production run of the DLZs.  

Given the condition of everything else electrical on this lathe, and given my curiosity, I may have to figure this out. Would it have been an electromagnetic actuator of some sort?  I don't have any idea, but it's interesting as heck.  

There was some speculation about the motor, and what it would take to replace it.  After measuring the mounting again, I'm quite sure that this motor is very close to, if not exactly a 254T frame.  I also pulled the sheet metal end cover so I could look at the pulley.  I pulled the .625 hex screw and fat flat washer from the end, and looked at the shaft's end.  It seems very close to 1.625. The end of the pulley is a little uneven on its ID, but it measured (with the very little bit I could get my caliper on) at 1.642.  I'll see if I can pull it off and measure the shaft directly, this weekend.  Seems very close to 1.625, so that would make it very much in line with  the 254T frame. I'll measure the length of the shaft.

Okay, so that's where I stand at the moment, and again, I want to say "Thank You!" to all who've been so helpful to me here.  Lot's of work to do, and lot's of things to figure out.  Should be fun!

Now I'm going to kick back and rest a bit. I'm beat.

Mark


----------



## markamerica

Okay, so the lathe is bought and home. Obviously some work to do. Is this beginner's forum the appropriate place for where the discussion goes next? If not, where's the best section of these fora to take the discussion?  A lot of what comes next will be about electrical, but I'd like to look at it from the "whole shop" approach.  Yes, obviously there's a ton of electrical work to be done to this lathe, but I guess I should be taking into account the "whole shop," since I really can start from scratch there.  What's the best forum here for that discussion?  Again, thanks to all!

Edited to add: I just noticed the shop electrical section. I must not have noticed it the first time I looked. It was too obvious for me, apparently... So I'll start a new thread there. Thanks!


----------



## John Hasler

Don't be too quick to scrap the motor.  Even if isn't in working condition (motors are tougher than they look) consider having it rebuilt.


----------



## markamerica

John Hasler said:


> Don't be too quick to scrap the motor.  Even if isn't in working condition (motors are tougher than they look) consider having it rebuilt.


I was thinking about that. The problem is that even if it's good, I'm going to have to make a lid/cover for the terminals, because I can't find that style anywhere.  I'm going to do some tinkering with it this weekend because I watched a youtube video last night about checking the windings, to get some indication of the serviceability of a motor.  Trust me, if I can save the cost of a motor, I'm all over it.

Thanks John!

Mark


----------



## bfd

when Isaid that its instantly reversible I mean the motor not the lathe. of course of the motor reverses then so will the lathe. by design a 3 phase motor is reversible. It just takes swapping 2 of the three power leads any 2 will do. this is done with relays. A single phase motor cant do this you need to let the centrifugal switch reset this needs the motor to slow down. If on my lathe I liftthe handle from full down to full up the lathe keeps running the same direction. bill


----------



## Tony Wells

That lathe was designed with reversing gears in the transmission. So the only reversing of the motor would be to make sure the rotation is correct. Watch for correct operation of anything else wired or mechanically run along with the main motor, such as the coolant pump. Yes, swapping any two power leads will reverse a 3 phase motor.

The only lathe I have run that I can recall with an electric spindle brake was a Kia Seiki turret lathe. The brake was electromagnetic and integral with the main motor. On the end opposite the output shaft, there was a coil and a series of friction discs keyed to a bushing on a secondary shaft stub. Inside the housing, there were steel discs keyed to the housing. Built much like an automatic transmission clutch pack. Electrically, it was connected to a timed contactor. When you switched the power to the spindle off (there was no spindle clutch, you controlled it completely by the main motor electrics), the brake contactor closed for a set time and the spindle brake was applied. It was very quick to stop. Probably a single revolution unless you were running very high spindle rpm. You could tell it slowed a bit if you were running a lot of short time parts, activating the brake every couple of minutes. Eventually, the brake failed and the lathe became a pain to run, having to wait on the spindle to coast down. We sold the lathe to a subcontractor, who as far as I know never fixed it. We really never looked into what exactly failed, but by the noise, I can tell you it was mechanical, not electrical.

That Romanian lathe I was thinking about was badged Edelstaal, but I cannot find any info on the net about it. But then, it was new '79 as I recall, and communism was controlling the plants, and could have been made by anyone I suppose.


----------



## Martin W

To know which direction the motor needs to turn. The oil pump only works in one direction. Turn the lathe by hand and watch for oil in the glass bowl on top and you will know which direction the motor needs to turn.
Mine turns counter clockwise.
Martin


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## markamerica

Tony Wells said:


> That lathe was designed with reversing gears in the transmission. So the only reversing of the motor would be to make sure the rotation is correct. Watch for correct operation of anything else wired or mechanically run along with the main motor, such as the coolant pump. Yes, swapping any two power leads will reverse a 3 phase motor.
> 
> The only lathe I have run that I can recall with an electric spindle brake was a Kia Seiki turret lathe. The brake was electromagnetic and integral with the main motor. On the end opposite the output shaft, there was a coil and a series of friction discs keyed to a bushing on a secondary shaft stub. Inside the housing, there were steel discs keyed to the housing. Built much like an automatic transmission clutch pack. Electrically, it was connected to a timed contactor. When you switched the power to the spindle off (there was no spindle clutch, you controlled it completely by the main motor electrics), the brake contactor closed for a set time and the spindle brake was applied. It was very quick to stop. Probably a single revolution unless you were running very high spindle rpm. You could tell it slowed a bit if you were running a lot of short time parts, activating the brake every couple of minutes. Eventually, the brake failed and the lathe became a pain to run, having to wait on the spindle to coast down. We sold the lathe to a subcontractor, who as far as I know never fixed it. We really never looked into what exactly failed, but by the noise, I can tell you it was mechanical, not electrical.
> 
> That Romanian lathe I was thinking about was badged Edelstaal, but I cannot find any info on the net about it. But then, it was new '79 as I recall, and communism was controlling the plants, and could have been made by anyone I suppose.


Tony,
That makes sense even to a dummy like me. As for the electromagnetic brake on this, I have to assume it's inoperative for now. I guess we'll find out. Thanks! Mark


----------



## markamerica

Martin W said:


> To know which direction the motor needs to turn. The oil pump only works in one direction. Turn the lathe by hand and watch for oil in the glass bowl on top and you will know which direction the motor needs to turn.
> Mine turns counter clockwise.
> Martin
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Martin, I'm fairly confident the direction of rotation on this one will also be ccw. That will be among the things I look at tomorrow.

Thanks!

Mark


----------



## Paul in MN

Mark,

I've read your lathe saga this evening. Congratulations on finding and having the guts to go ahead with the purchase even with the electricals being missing. I have a similar small farm situation and similar size shop area inside my pole barn. Besides the day job, I have been hay farming since the early 80's with very used equipment. By necessity I have made parts and even a main gearbox shaft within the gearbox of a JD pull behind combine. My long owned lathe is a 10" X 36" Clausing. Its size has been adequate for most of what we have needed to make. When I got it in the 80's, a good friend electrical engineer designed the details to convert it to single phase 240 V power (no 3 phase available here). Since then I have acquired a 14" X 36" gap bed Japanese lathe for some of the reasons you spoke of earlier.  Like you, I trailered it and loaded and unloaded it myself with a 975 Bobcat.  But I could have used one of the bigger tractors with its loader. Maybe you have a neighbor with similar equipment who is willing to help you unload. I doubt your estimated weight of 8,000 lbs if you were running a 4 wheel trailer with 35 psi tire pressure. I think you would have blown out a tire or 2. So my WAG of the machine weight is maybe 5,000 lbs, and even that + trailer dead weight exceeds what that tire pressure would sustain for a 3 hour drive. Point I am getting to is if a good size farm tractor loader is used without the weight of the empty bucket (take the bucket off) and lift with hefty straps from the front cross member of the loader frame (closer to the tractor gives greater lift), you should be able to slightly lift the lathe and then drive the trailer out from under. When moving the tractor and lathe, keep the lathe very close to the ground. Keep the straps straight and not twisted. I lift by placing the straps under the lathe bed, one close to the headstock, and one closer to the tailstock. Move the carriage toward the tailstock, to somewhat balance the load. See that the lift straps are not touching any of the levers or switches and have no interference with the carriage. Use nothing less than the 2" wide straps rated at 10,000 breaking strength. I would use 2 such straps at each end of the lathe bed. I see by your early photos, the seller used chain for lifting. I much prefer straps, much less likely damage to the machine, and they are much less likely to slip sideways than chain.  As another poster pointed out, a lathe is top heavy, so lifting from the bed makes good sense. If you unload before your dolly cart is built, you can move the lathe on a dirt or gravel surface by laying down a couple of 2 x 10 planks on the dirt (space them apart maybe 10-12") cut some scrap 1 1/4" water pipe into 30 to 36" lengths , 6 pieces or more spaced about 1 ft apart perpendicular to the parallel planks,  place another pair of 2 x 10 on top to the pipes and set the lathe on top of the "pipe sandwich". Working alone, I pull the machine forward using a come-along between a pole barn pole and the lathe foot. Do not pull from the bed with this setup. If you need to turn the lathe, just begin setting the pipes at a bit of an angle to the lower planks (kind of like steering it into place). As you inch forward, a pipe comes out from the back, you then put it at the front of the pull. It is easier to do, than it is to explain.

For the jack screws on your planned dolly, 2 possible suggestions: 1) If you have commercial scaffolding wheels available (with screw thread adjustments) they work very well. 2) 1/2" threaded rod or bolts may carry the weight, but I have had too many fail by bending or snapping off. 3/4" bolts or threaded rod is the smallest I would use for this application. Your farm machinery dealer parts dept might have the grade 5 threaded rod 36" long in stock. Our CNH dealer has the threaded rod selection out on the display floor.

Work slowly and carefully on this phase of the project, you'll do well.

Paul in MN


----------



## markamerica

Paul in MN said:


> Mark,
> 
> I've read your lathe saga this evening. Congratulations on finding and having the guts to go ahead with the purchase even with the electricals being missing. I have a similar small farm situation and similar size shop area inside my pole barn. Besides the day job, I have been hay farming since the early 80's with very used equipment. By necessity I have made parts and even a main gearbox shaft within the gearbox of a JD pull behind combine. My long owned lathe is a 10" X 36" Clausing. Its size has been adequate for most of what we have needed to make. When I got it in the 80's, a good friend electrical engineer designed the details to convert it to single phase 240 V power (no 3 phase available here). Since then I have acquired a 14" X 36" gap bed Japanese lathe for some of the reasons you spoke of earlier.  Like you, I trailered it and loaded and unloaded it myself with a 975 Bobcat.  But I could have used one of the bigger tractors with its loader. Maybe you have a neighbor with similar equipment who is willing to help you unload. I doubt your estimated weight of 8,000 lbs if you were running a 4 wheel trailer with 35 psi tire pressure. I think you would have blown out a tire or 2. So my WAG of the machine weight is maybe 5,000 lbs, and even that + trailer dead weight exceeds what that tire pressure would sustain for a 3 hour drive. Point I am getting to is if a good size farm tractor loader is used without the weight of the empty bucket (take the bucket off) and lift with hefty straps from the front cross member of the loader frame (closer to the tractor gives greater lift), you should be able to slightly lift the lathe and then drive the trailer out from under. When moving the tractor and lathe, keep the lathe very close to the ground. Keep the straps straight and not twisted. I lift by placing the straps under the lathe bed, one close to the headstock, and one closer to the tailstock. Move the carriage toward the tailstock, to somewhat balance the load. See that the lift straps are not touching any of the levers or switches and have no interference with the carriage. Use nothing less than the 2" wide straps rated at 10,000 breaking strength. I would use 2 such straps at each end of the lathe bed. I see by your early photos, the seller used chain for lifting. I much prefer straps, much less likely damage to the machine, and they are much less likely to slip sideways than chain.  As another poster pointed out, a lathe is top heavy, so lifting from the bed makes good sense. If you unload before your dolly cart is built, you can move the lathe on a dirt or gravel surface by laying down a couple of 2 x 10 planks on the dirt (space them apart maybe 10-12") cut some scrap 1 1/4" water pipe into 30 to 36" lengths , 6 pieces or more spaced about 1 ft apart perpendicular to the parallel planks,  place another pair of 2 x 10 on top to the pipes and set the lathe on top of the "pipe sandwich". Working alone, I pull the machine forward using a come-along between a pole barn pole and the lathe foot. Do not pull from the bed with this setup. If you need to turn the lathe, just begin setting the pipes at a bit of an angle to the lower planks (kind of like steering it into place). As you inch forward, a pipe comes out from the back, you then put it at the front of the pull. It is easier to do, than it is to explain.
> 
> For the jack screws on your planned dolly, 2 possible suggestions: 1) If you have commercial scaffolding wheels available (with screw thread adjustments) they work very well. 2) 1/2" threaded rod or bolts may carry the weight, but I have had too many fail by bending or snapping off. 3/4" bolts or threaded rod is the smallest I would use for this application. Your farm machinery dealer parts dept might have the grade 5 threaded rod 36" long in stock. Our CNH dealer has the threaded rod selection out on the display floor.
> 
> Work slowly and carefully on this phase of the project, you'll do well.
> 
> Paul in MN


Paul,

Thanks, on the trailer, let me clear that up. I had about 35 lbs for the first quarter mile. At a corner gas station using a stack of quarters, I got them up to around 45 using that cheap coin-operated compressor they had. Then I hauled 3-4 miles at a gingerly 25-30 mph, slower when I could, until I got to the Discount Tire shop Ken recommended to me, where they topped them off to 75psi. I drove home on 75 psi for 3 hours... Wouldn't have made it out of town as it was.  The trailer has a GTWR of 20K. Its own weight is about 4500.  The minimum weight spec I can find for this series of lathe is around 6,600. Seen them listed as high as 7,200.  I figure 8,000 is a safe working estimate. It may be 1,400 or so less. I know that my little 45hp tractor routinely handles 6x6 round bales approaching the 1 ton mark. It wouldn't budge it. (I just wanted to see if I could even budge one end of it...Not a chance.)  I'm going to try to Egyptian Pyramid this thing off the trailer this weekend.  It's already been sitting on the trailer a week longer than I wanted.  My plan is to use a pair of 3 ton floor jacks to elevate one end, stick some lengths of pipe under the pedestals, and roll it to the end of the trailer bed. From there, I will see if I can get it onto some posts I have that are 10' sections of telephone pole. If I can work it back until the tail-end pedestal is at the end of the bed of the trailer, I'm thinking I can at that point get the jacks under it, and elevate just enough to pull the trailer clear.  Then, set it down on that end, go to the other end, jack it off the telephone pole, and set it down. I can use a combination of chains and tow straps to control its momentum. The way I have the trailer situated at the moment, the end of the bed is over-hanging the concrete by about 2', and since off the slab, the trailer sits about 8 inches lower, I've only got about 1' difference in height between the bed of the trailer and the surface of the concrete.  Worse comes to worse, I'll hire out one of the local wrecker companies, put the trailer back on the slab, have them lift it about 1" clear of the bed, pull the trailer, and then set it straight down for now.

I've re-thought the dolly business some too. Part of the rationale for the dolly was that my small shop would require it to be movable. In another thread, I've mentioned we've decided to double my shop floorspace by extending it another 16 ft within the barn, so we'll be doing some more concrete work. That will give me the floor space to put a couple feet behind the lathe on a permanent basis. Then I'll only need to move it one time.  Rather than spend the money on the steel and casters and so on, I'm going to try to find a more economical approach. I figure I'd have spent in steel and hardware for the dolly what I'll spend on concrete and rebar, more or less, but the one wall gets 16' longer, as does the lowered ceiling deck, so a little added cost. Not too bad though. Thing is, I'll still need to find a way to move this thing one time once it's on the ground. It can sit in that center aisle for quite a while as I do some of the basic structural work for the shop. It doesn't need to move, and then when it does, I'll need to figure something out. I looked at some heavy duty car dollies, but the only thing I worry about there is weight distribution on the dollies themselves.  They're made to have a tire resting on them, laying in the trough formed by the wide V of the platform.  Not sure how they'd work with something heavy laid across the tops of them. Found some that will support 2,500 lbs each, sold in pairs for reasonable amounts, thought maybe I could buy two pairs, support the headstock pedestal with a pair, the mid pedestal with one, and the tail pedestal with another, or something along those lines. Would be a heckuva lot cheaper than my custom cradle/dolly business, and would have other uses(like a car, for instance...LOL)  

Anyway, that's where I'm at.  

Thanks Paul!

Mark


When we loaded it on the trailer, I had them position it for proper weight distribution fore/aft with respect to the loading of the axles and tongue. I got it pretty close, but as I got up to around 60mph after airing up those tires, I saw just a little wandering in the tail that told me I had the weight ever so slightly to far rearward.  Pulled over on the shoulder, and cranked the carriage about a foot closer to the tailstock, got it back up to speed, and yep, that made the difference. Tracked fine after that.  Anyway, the jack-screws I had planned for the dolly were going to be 1" grade 8 pipe flange studs. 

I was studying the lathe a little, and noticed in the end of the headstock end pedestal, there are two rectangular holes cut into the pedestal, close to the centerline, very near the bottom of the pedestal on the end. It looks like a jacking point


----------



## 4GSR

Mark,

Be super careful dragging that lathe off your trailer.  I would highly recommend you get a couple 2 x 12's to mount under the footing of the lathe.  Let the boards stick out about 3" on each side and about 3" on the front end and 6" on the tail end.  This will give you a "sled" to help you get it off the trailer.  Use your tractor ramps to support the lathe as it is coming off the trailer.  And last, jack up the tongue end of the trailer as high as you can get it and still be connected to the trailer with your truck.  Deflate the rear set of tires on the trailer.  All of this should get the back end of the trailer almost to the ground level.  Have you a bunch of "cribbing" handy, you will need it!   Take your time and stop pulling every 4-6" and check to make sure everything is going your way.  If not make adjustments and continue pulling.  Last, keep people away from the sides of the lathe while pulling! And keep yourself safe and have a escape plan of getting away from the load as you are pulling on it!!!  Ken


----------



## Wreck™Wreck

Stout machine, electrical problems are the easiest to fix. As far as spindle reverse it is needed for backing out taps and LH tapping, also it is often not possible to get the carriage close enough to the spindle when the gap is removed to use normal OD tools, I often use a boring bar upside down with the spindle in reverse to reach the part, as seen below.

It is useful if called upon to make parts with a taper on the end short enough to do with the compound yet to steep for a taper attachment, turn the compound to the required angle with the hand wheel _toward_ the operator, use a boring bar on the back side and run the spindle in reverse, this is far more comfortable then reaching over the carriage and cross slide to crank the handle

Try not to run the carriage into the gap.
Good Luck


----------



## markamerica

4gsr said:


> Mark,
> 
> Be super careful dragging that lathe off your trailer.  I would highly recommend you get a couple 2 x 12's to mount under the footing of the lathe.  Let the boards stick out about 3" on each side and about 3" on the front end and 6" on the tail end.  This will give you a "sled" to help you get it off the trailer.  Use your tractor ramps to support the lathe as it is coming off the trailer.  And last, jack up the tongue end of the trailer as high as you can get it and still be connected to the trailer with your truck.  Deflate the rear set of tires on the trailer.  All of this should get the back end of the trailer almost to the ground level.  Have you a bunch of "cribbing" handy, you will need it!   Take your time and stop pulling every 4-6" and check to make sure everything is going your way.  If not make adjustments and continue pulling.  Last, keep people away from the sides of the lathe while pulling! And keep yourself safe and have a escape plan of getting away from the load as you are pulling on it!!!  Ken



Ken, As I mentioned off-thread, I've decided I've gotten a good deal on unloading it from a local towing company, so they get the job. It's just preferable to me to be safe and be done with it and put nobody's life, limbs, or property at serious risk. Mine included. As I mentioned elsewhere above, I've decided to scrap the permanent roll-around solution, simply because I'll have the floor-space I need with the extension of my shop by another 16x16. That will alleviate the necessity to keep it crowded against a wall and move it out when I need to work behind it. Instead, I'll just move it into place once. Still would like to read  thoughts on the heavy duty car dolly idea/notion. Thanks!

Mark


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## markamerica

Wreck™Wreck said:


> Stout machine, electrical problems are the easiest to fix. As far as spindle reverse it is needed for backing out taps and LH tapping, also it is often not possible to get the carriage close enough to the spindle when the gap is removed to use normal OD tools, I often use a boring bar upside down with the spindle in reverse to reach the part, as seen below.
> 
> It is useful if called upon to make parts with a taper on the end short enough to do with the compound yet to steep for a taper attachment, turn the compound to the required angle with the hand wheel _toward_ the operator, use a boring bar on the back side and run the spindle in reverse, this is far more comfortable then reaching over the carriage and cross slide to crank the handle
> 
> Try not to run the carriage into the gap.
> Good Luck


Thanks Wreck!

I have done my first bit of work to make this lathe operable again. Minor thing, but the tool post was not completely, but largely frozen, or enough that the locking plates(you guys correct me on my terminology, I'll appreciate you helping me not read like an imbecile...) are on some sort of pins that slide in and out as you rotate the shaft via the handle. It would turn about 1/8 of a turn. I pulled it off and brought it in the house where I could work in cooler conditions.  They don't travel very far in and out, but I also noticed that when I pulled the plates off(secured by socket-head screws recessed into the faces of the plates) that there are shim washers, look like brass probably, and one had a slightly larger thin steel piece, looks like it covers the shims, and is wider than the pin, I suspect to help keep crap out of there, but the other one was missing this thin plate. Anyway, after work them back and forth by means of WD-40 and a couple light blows with the dead-blow, just to get them moving, I finally got to where I can spin this thing all the way around.  Here's my question: I looked at it for a while. How does it come apart?  Do you remove the shaft, which I expect must have highs and lows that act as cams to push the pins outward(and thus the lock plates) or what? Because while I've gotten it freed up, it's still kind of nasty, and while by working them in and out a lot for a while, I managed to get a load of gunk and crud out of there, they're still a bit sticky.  I can now place those fine boring bar holders I got from Ken on it and lock them down, and release them, slide off no problems, but if I really want to get this bugger cleaned up, what's the disassembly procedure? By the way, the handle on this one is clearly a long 5/8" bolt somebody cut the head from to fashion a new handle.  And it's bent besides... I'll find a new handle on Ebay. Anyway, I assume shims are available.  But two more dumb question. On the side that would ordinarily face you, there's a threaded hole. On the underside, just off to one side, there's another hole, but I can't tell if it's threaded, it's so full of crud. I'll clean it out. Do these play a part in disassembly? Is there going to be some kind of set screw or something in either of those? 

Trying to learn like I did as a kid: Tear it apart. Try not to damage/destroy in the process.

Thanks!

Mark


----------



## markamerica

markamerica said:


> Thanks Wreck!
> 
> I have done my first bit of work to make this lathe operable again. Minor thing, but the tool post was not completely, but largely frozen, or enough that the locking plates(you guys correct me on my terminology, I'll appreciate you helping me not read like an imbecile...) are on some sort of pins that slide in and out as you rotate the shaft via the handle. It would turn about 1/8 of a turn. I pulled it off and brought it in the house where I could work in cooler conditions.  They don't travel very far in and out, but I also noticed that when I pulled the plates off(secured by socket-head screws recessed into the faces of the plates) that there are shim washers, look like brass probably, and one had a slightly larger thin steel piece, looks like it covers the shims, and is wider than the pin, I suspect to help keep crap out of there, but the other one was missing this thin plate. Anyway, after work them back and forth by means of WD-40 and a couple light blows with the dead-blow, just to get them moving, I finally got to where I can spin this thing all the way around.  Here's my question: I looked at it for a while. How does it come apart?  Do you remove the shaft, which I expect must have highs and lows that act as cams to push the pins outward(and thus the lock plates) or what? Because while I've gotten it freed up, it's still kind of nasty, and while by working them in and out a lot for a while, I managed to get a load of gunk and crud out of there, they're still a bit sticky.  I can now place those fine boring bar holders I got from Ken on it and lock them down, and release them, slide off no problems, but if I really want to get this bugger cleaned up, what's the disassembly procedure? By the way, the handle on this one is clearly a long 5/8" bolt somebody cut the head from to fashion a new handle.  And it's bent besides... I'll find a new handle on Ebay. Anyway, I assume shims are available.  But two more dumb question. On the side that would ordinarily face you, there's a threaded hole. On the underside, just off to one side, there's another hole, but I can't tell if it's threaded, it's so full of crud. I'll clean it out. Do these play a part in disassembly? Is there going to be some kind of set screw or something in either of those?
> 
> Trying to learn like I did as a kid: Tear it apart. Try not to damage/destroy in the process.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Mark


Well shucks, figured it out, completely disassembled, and figured out why the shims since nothing looked that badly worn(there is wear on the pins.) The thing was so full of the blackest gunk and hard crud I've seen since my Army days, looked almost coked on, but the pins couldn't extend all the way and the springs couldn't retract. Because the pins couldn't easily extend all the way, I couldn't pull the cammed shaft. So I played around and by some careful guessing, I took a longer 1/4" screw, used the locking plates to pull out slightly on the pins, by turning them 90 and using them like little pullers. Shaft came out, then with a little more careful work, pushed the pins inward until they fell inside, dumped them out, removed the springs, and gave it all a good cleaning. Reassembled with lighter grease, and it works like a champ. Had to ditch the shims altogether on one side, left one in on the other. 

Works easy as pie now. I know it isn't much, but I learned something and made one itty bitty baby step toward making the lathe usable again.

It will take a month to get the stains out of my hands.... LOL

Mark


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## Wreck™Wreck

A threaded hole in an assembly often will hold a set screw, always check for this, some are assembled by installing 1 set screw and placing another on top to lock it in.

Some unused threaded holes are construction holes used during machining/plating/finishing/painting processes, electro plated parts are hung in the tank by suitable means, often threaded holes with hooks installed are used for this purpose using non conductive material.

I reguarly use 2 lathes that have Aloris tool posts, the one in the above picture is holding a 2 1/2" diameter boring bar, the other is I believe a DXA size which is a bit smaller. both have a 3/8-16 tapped hole in the body that I have no idea why it is there, have never had a reason to take them apart.


----------



## markamerica

Wreck™Wreck said:


> A threaded hole in an assembly often will hold a set screw, always check for this, some are assembled by installing 1 set screw and placing another on top to lock it in.
> 
> Some unused threaded holes are construction holes used during machining/plating/finishing/painting processes, electro plated parts are hung in the tank by suitable means, often threaded holes with hooks installed are used for this purpose using non conductive material.
> 
> I reguarly use 2 lathes that have Aloris tool posts, the one in the above picture is holding a 2 1/2" diameter boring bar, the other is I believe a DXA size which is a bit smaller. both have a 3/8-16 tapped hole in the body that I have no idea why it is there, have never had a reason to take them apart.



Wreck,
Thanks! After cleaning all the old gunk out of the holes, I found one on the side was threaded, and the one underneath was not. I almost wonder if the one underneath is meant to be like a locking point and if some lathes have some kind of quick reference default point on their compounds for which this is intended, or what.  The one on the side, the threaded one, who knows.  No set screw, and nothing I could see that it has to do with its operation or assembly, near as I can tell.  Might be just what you said: Something used in the manufacturing process, but irrelevant to use as intended. 

It took me a few minutes of studying it, once I got the pins behind the lock plates to spin to figure out how it must go together. My clue that something was amiss was that the pins wouldn't retract on their own, and the only way I figured that could work was with springs, and figured they were missing, broken, sprung, or terribly crudded-up. Turned out to be the last, though they seem a little weak, so maybe also a little "sprung."  Of course, once I got all the old gunk and crud out, and the pins would move in and out and spin freely, and the springs could actually operate, then the plates began to retract properly, and I understood why somebody shimmed them.  They weren't getting their full travel, the shaft wouldn't turn all the way around, and the springs were so jammed-up with hard crud that they couldn't move all the way in or out. This is why the shaft would only go about 1/8th of a turn.

Now, as far as my pea brain can figure, it works like it ought to:






How's that?

Thanks!

Mark


----------



## 4GSR

You're wife let you bring stuff into the house to work on?  I think you awful brave with that in the house.


----------



## markamerica

4gsr said:


> You're wife let you bring stuff into the house to work on?  I think you awful brave with that in the house.



Ken, First of all, I'm the man of the house and King of my castle, and she was at work during the day yesterday, so I was safe as long as it was all cleaned up before she arrived home.

Second of all, through decades of careful conditioning, whereby I bring something in to work on and extend by small increments the limits of her patience and tolerance, a small item like a tool post goes virtually unnoticed so long as any messiness is cleaned up before she sees it.

I put the finishing touches and reassembled by 8:15 yesterday evening, and the space cleaned back up by 830. She walked through the door at 8:45. No mess, no problem.

Third, and last, how do you think I've convinced her that it's time I have an air-conditioned workshop, including my concrete augmentation?

Truth is, I've been laying the groundwork for this project for many years!

"Just think dear, I'll be able to stop dragging in this and that to work on, and won't be here most evening to compete for the remote..." And so on.

The best plans are the longer term ones that you stick to in quiet diligence over time.

Muwahahahaha!

Now all I have to do is pray she never reads this... LOL

Mark


----------



## 4GSR

markamerica said:


> ......snip......
> Muwahahahaha!
> 
> Now all I have to do is pray she never reads this... LOL
> 
> Mark



I got your phone number....

And no I would not call her..... Kind of works both ways here...


----------



## markamerica

4gsr said:


> I got your phone number....
> 
> And no I would not call her..... Kind of works both ways here...


Ken, LOL, but you don't have HER number... LOL

But don't worry bro, I've got your back!

Either way... LOL

Thanks!

Mark


----------



## markamerica

By the way, my daughter, son-in-law and granddaughter were here today, and while all the ladies tacked up a storm in the house, we men-folk went out to the barn and played with the lathe. We pulled the lid off the gearbox again, and yep, I don't remember if it was Ken who suggested it, but yes, that odd round cover on the chuck end of the gearbox must have housed that electromagnetic brake. That's what's missing from there.

Jim turns out to have been right, I think, about my odd device with the plunger. There's an angle bracket at the other end of the gearbox where that device must have mounted, and it's only possible purpose could be to interrupt operations if you open that door. So good call on that one Jim!

Also, played around with controls some more, checked out the cross and carriage, and figured out precisely where to add way oil.  Figured out a few other things since I had help. I know now that the gearbox oil pump is definitely operable. I see how they ran the e-stop wiring and the electromagnetic brake wiring, both of which transit the gear box, through copper tubing that has fittings on either end and constitutes a conduit for each. 

I'm afraid though that without the electromagnetic brake, the e-stop won't accomplish much beyond power off the machine, but I may see what electromagnetic brake parts are still available and put that back in service.

It's not like I'm going to be a production shop, so I have time to wait for it to coast to a stop. Son-in-law remarked that other than the aforementioned sipped range gear damage, everything in the gearbox looked remarkably good and clean. 

I do think ill wind up replacing the split/half-nut though. It's got a bit of slop when it's engaged to the lead screw.

Thanks!

Mark


----------



## 4GSR

Replacing the half nut set.  You maybe rethinking that when you get the price on new one's...  There's several threads on rebuilding half nuts for the lathe.  Might be encourage to go that route.

As for the electric brake, they are available. They can be easily be adapted to your lathe.  I put a electric clutch-brake setup on a ancient lathe I rebuilt a long time ago.  It was nice, I could dial in the brake to slide to a stop or stop the spindle on a dime!  And on a lathe that had a headstock full of half worn out gears, it didn't sound good when you had the control maxed out stopping the spindle on a dime.  Supply us with a accurate OD of the shaft, within .005".  That way some of us can do some looking and see what we can come up with.  I do recall some one using a disk brake from a automotive braking system and adapting it to a lathe.  Too much to think about right now!


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## markamerica

4gsr said:


> Replacing the half nut set.  You maybe rethinking that when you get the price on new one's...  There's several threads on rebuilding half nuts for the lathe.  Might be encourage to go that route.
> 
> As for the electric brake, they are available. They can be easily be adapted to your lathe.  I put a electric clutch-brake setup on a ancient lathe I rebuilt a long time ago.  It was nice, I could dial in the brake to slide to a stop or stop the spindle on a dime!  And on a lathe that had a headstock full of half worn out gears, it didn't sound good when you had the control maxed out stopping the spindle on a dime.  Supply us with a accurate OD of the shaft, within .005".  That way some of us can do some looking and see what we can come up with.  I do recall some one using a disk brake from a automotive braking system and adapting it to a lathe.  Too much to think about right now!



Ken, I wouldn't have thought half-nuts so expensive, but then, what do I know?
Of course, they pretty much have you where they want you on something like that, don't they?

As for that shaft, it's kind of a 6-spline shaft(if my mental picture is accurate.) if hazard a guess that it's maybe 1-3/4 ish in OD on the outside of the splines, but that's pure guess, and it's sure to be a metric measurement. What I'm finding so far is that much of the hardware on the outside of the lathe is imperial, while inside the gearbox, it's all seemed to be metric. Of course, I haven't put a wrench to nearly everything outside, never mind inside. 

Interesting to think of doing this with non-original parts. I guess there's no reason why not.

Thanks Ken! You always give me something upon which to ponder.

Mark


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## markamerica

markamerica said:


> Ken, I wouldn't have thought half-nuts so expensive, but then, what do I know?
> Of course, they pretty much have you where they want you on something like that, don't they?
> 
> As for that shaft, it's kind of a 6-spline shaft(if my mental picture is accurate.) if hazard a guess that it's maybe 1-3/4 ish in OD on the outside of the splines, but that's pure guess, and it's sure to be a metric measurement. What I'm finding so far is that much of the hardware on the outside of the lathe is imperial, while inside the gearbox, it's all seemed to be metric. Of course, I haven't put a wrench to nearly everything outside, never mind inside.
> 
> Interesting to think of doing this with non-original parts. I guess there's no reason why not.
> 
> Thanks Ken! You always give me something upon which to ponder.
> 
> Mark





4gsr said:


> Replacing the half nut set.  You maybe rethinking that when you get the price on new one's...  There's several threads on rebuilding half nuts for the lathe.  Might be encourage to go that route.
> 
> As for the electric brake, they are available. They can be easily be adapted to your lathe.  I put a electric clutch-brake setup on a ancient lathe I rebuilt a long time ago.  It was nice, I could dial in the brake to slide to a stop or stop the spindle on a dime!  And on a lathe that had a headstock full of half worn out gears, it didn't sound good when you had the control maxed out stopping the spindle on a dime.  Supply us with a accurate OD of the shaft, within .005".  That way some of us can do some looking and see what we can come up with.  I do recall some one using a disk brake from a automotive braking system and adapting it to a lathe.  Too much to think about right now!


Ken, here's another dumb question. Couldn't the same thing be accomplished with a Stearn-type brake motor?

Just another in a string of dumb questions...

Thanks!

Mark


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## 4GSR

markamerica said:


> Ken, here's another dumb question. Couldn't the same thing be accomplished with a Stearn-type brake motor?
> 
> Just another in a string of dumb questions...
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Mark


Mark,
I'm not familiar with that type of brake.  Send me a picture or a spec page on one.


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## markamerica

4gsr said:


> Mark,
> I'm not familiar with that type of brake.  Send me a picture or a spec page on one.


Ken, here's a link to their site. I stumbled on a motor equipped with this setup on eBay. Looks like it's designed to bring the big motor to a stop, unless I'm completely misunderstanding the concept, which admittedly, is a distinct possibility:

http://www.stearnsbrake.net

Thanks!

Mark


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## 4GSR

markamerica said:


> Ken, here's a link to their site. I stumbled on a motor equipped with this setup on eBay. Looks like it's designed to bring the big motor to a stop, unless I'm completely misunderstanding the concept, which admittedly, is a distinct possibility:
> 
> http://www.stearnsbrake.net
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Mark


Never used one, have seen them over the years being advertized.


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## markamerica

4gsr said:


> Never used one, have seen them over the years being advertized.


Thanks Ken, The only thing about this is I noticed a couple on the 'bay (Motors equipped with these Stearns brakes) and it just prompted some questions in my mind. The spindle on the lathe is clutched, so would stopping the motor work as an effective spindle brake? Not sure how that would work. You'd still have the inertia of the chuck, the spindle, and the load spinning it. Would the clutch just let it slip, or would you risk just beating your clutch to death?  These are all unknowns to me.

Just happened to run across a motor so-equipped, and I've seen a few of these along the way in my life. Just not sure if they're useful in this application.

Thanks!

Mark


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