# Do I Need A $200 Combination Square?



## Bob V (Apr 26, 2015)

Hi,
I'm new to all of this and just getting my very old machine going, and getting the tools I need.

I've bought some "top of the line" stuff-- I bought a Kurt vise, for example.
And I've bought some less expensive stuff--like 19 bucks for five spot drills from LMS.

--So do I need to spend $200+ for a Starret combination square?
--Is there a good Chinese one?  (I like to buy USA, but I also have a budget!)

Thanks,
Bob


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## darkzero (Apr 26, 2015)

Probably not for the average home hobbyist (brand new $200+) but they are very nice to have. I personally would buy a used quality one than a new China one.


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## 18w (Apr 26, 2015)

I am with Will, as long as you check them, a used one is fine. Starrett, Mitutoyo, Lufkin, Brown & Sharpe, or even PEC. They turn up all the time here on craigslist. If you just need the square, the Starrett is under  $100.00 new on amazon. The protractor head and the center can be bought separately later. The protractor head being quite useful.

Darrell


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## coolidge (Apr 26, 2015)

My Starrett combination square is the 2nd most used tool in my arsenal behind my Mitutoyo digital caliper. I have both the satin chrome 12 inch and 24 inch rules, I use the 24 inch frequently. I also frequently use my simple 6 inch machinist rule. I'm installing a DRO on my mill at the moment and I'm using all three on this job.

You can save a few bucks by just buying the square, I have never needed the Starrett protractor or center finder gadget. I have a separate precision center finder with a beveled edge which I like better.


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## Wes (Apr 26, 2015)

Couldn't agree more with Will. From my own experience - by all means avoid cheap made in China measuring tools. You don't have to spend a fortune on top of the range stuf. Just buy quality, used tool and you'll never ever regret it. Money well spend and just a sheer pleasure to use them - they always perform as they meant to, they were made that way.


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## hdskip (Apr 26, 2015)

If I had to choose between the square, the center finder and the protractor head, I'd have to say that I use the protractor at least twice as much as I use both the others. I think this would apply at work as well as my home shop. 
   Gary


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## Doubleeboy (Apr 26, 2015)

If on a budget , the Enco branded combination square kit is not bad, it is not Starrett quality for smoothness  but it is accurate and way cheaper.  What ever you do, do not buy a aluminum square.  Even a cheap Chinese combo kit is worlds better than aluminum, squares...... there ought to be a law against them.   I have a Starrett for the metal shop and the Enco is for the wood shop. Unless I want to do a alcohol bath my tools never migrate from metal to wood shop for fear of taking oil along and ruining a nice piece of wood.   Nothing wrong with PEC, they make the Woodcraft branded squares, pretty nice and considerably cheaper than the big boys.

michael


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## Bob V (Apr 26, 2015)

Thanks to all of you for your help.
The expertise and prompt willingness of those on this forum to share their knowledge is great to see and benefit from!
Best regards,
Bob


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## T Bredehoft (Apr 26, 2015)

Get and use tools you can be proud of, not to brag on.  In other words, I'd look for a good used one, you might even try a pawn shop.  Or Ebay.


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## Bob V (Apr 26, 2015)

I just bought a used 4 piece Starrett Combination Square--shipped for $115.  
I probably wouldn't have done this without the encouragement of this forum-- I was worried I might be getting a precision tool that had been dropped.
--But I can return it within 14 days--so I'll just check it out against other square/angle indicators.
Thanks again!


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## coolidge (Apr 26, 2015)

Public service announcement - I purchased an iGaging precision ground, hardened, beveled 36" straight edge with an advertised accuracy of .001 ahem...FAIL! The thing had a .015 bow in it. Maybe I'm just unlucky but whenever I go cheaper on tools like this I get burned.


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## royesses (Apr 27, 2015)

I use a PEC combo square from Harry J Epstein company. Fast shipper and some of the nicest guys in business. Always willing to help out. The square is USA made and is blemish. It took me a couple of hours to find the defect with a magnifying glass. It is a slight rub mark on an un used part of the scale. $36.00 plus shipping.
http://store.harryepstein.com/cp/ProductsEngineering/7142-4R.html

The one I have is $57.50 for the full 4 piece set:
http://store.harryepstein.com/cp/ProductsEngineering/7116-16R.html


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## EmilioG (Apr 27, 2015)

I would go with a good used Starrett.  I bought one on ebay for $30 and a new steel center head for $20.
The Starrett is all steel and not cast iron.  PEC makes a good combo square as does Mitutoyo and Brown and Sharpe.
Good deals can be found on all of the above.  I like old used Starrett better than new import personally.  Your paying for
quality and accuracy and the Starrett tools will last forever.


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## brino (Apr 27, 2015)

Doubleeboy said:


> What ever you do, do not buy a aluminum square. Even a cheap Chinese combo kit is worlds better than aluminum, squares...... there ought to be a law against them.



Hey Michael, why the hate for Al squares?
I would think they could be made accurately, do they have issues with expansion/contraction?
Sounds like you've been bitten in the past.
Thanks
-brino


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## Franko (Apr 27, 2015)

I picked up some good deals on name brand rules at pawn shops. 

One of the main differences you'll find with knock-off rules and squares is the finish. One of the beauties of Starrett, Mitutoyo and Brown & Sharp is the mat stainless finish which make reading them much easier. Shiny reflective surfaces on a rule is a bad thing as they are very hard to read in anything but perfect light.


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## Doubleeboy (Apr 27, 2015)

brino said:


> Hey Michael, why the hate for Al squares?
> I would think they could be made accurately, do they have issues with expansion/contraction?
> Sounds like you've been bitten in the past.
> Thanks
> -brino



Aluminum squares for the most part are cheaply built , do not stay square or tight.  I had one when I was young, okay for crude carpentry but mostly it was junk.  The cheap cast iron one from Enco is worlds better.  I agree with Franko on the hi end squares and being easy to read.   I believe if you want to save money and buy new get the PEC, its probably on sale at enco currently, it frequently is.  It is very usable.

michael


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## brav65 (Apr 27, 2015)

I just bought this combo on eBay a couple months ago it is made in Massachusetts.  I use it quite regularly, and will be using the protractor this week for a project I am working on.  

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Blem-Cosmet...187?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2343b34403


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## T Bredehoft (Apr 27, 2015)

While working with a combination square, I had a thought.  For Layout, a combination square is fine, but for trying, to establish that two sides of a block are 'square,' 90º apart,  I'd only use a solid square. While it may have been made from two pieces of metal, it is now (unless damaged) truly square. I would not trust a combination square for that purpose.


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## francist (Apr 27, 2015)

Just thought I'd share my one experience at buying a used square over the internet: actually it wasn't a square, it was a nice little 4" centre finding head and blade by Lufkin. Sweet. Everything looked great in the pictures, no dings and no engravings. Can't remember how much I paid but that doesn't matter, what does matter is after a few times using it I wondered why my "centers" didn't seem to be exactly centered. Close inspection revealed yes, the head was a nice little Lufkin and so marked, but the blade was a mismatched from some other maker. Pretty close but a very slightly different width (hey, lesson learned, blades are not all the same width) and not marked. Result: for a square it might work, but for a centre finding head it renders the thing absolutely useless. 

Darn cute little centre finder though...

-frank


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## stupoty (Apr 27, 2015)

Doubleeboy said:


> Aluminum squares for the most part are cheaply built , do not stay square or tight.  I had one when I was young, okay for crude carpentry but mostly it was junk.  The cheap cast iron one from Enco is worlds better.  I agree with Franko on the hi end squares and being easy to read.   I believe if you want to save money and buy new get the PEC, its probably on sale at enco currently, it frequently is.  It is very usable.
> 
> michael



I got a cheepish 6" cast iron one, it's very handy, much better than the cheep cheep ally ones iv'e used, although i'm sure an upmarket ally one (do they make them?) would be good too.

http://www.chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/info_SMT281.html

It definitly has some issues, the scale is a bit annoying but very small complaints for the price.

I would quite like a starret one thoug ;-)

Stuart


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## randyjaco (Apr 28, 2015)

I have purchased several Starrett squares at garage sales and flea markets. The best deal was a 4 piece 12" for $25. (I did have to replace a vial.) Just keep your eyes open. The scale I use most is a 2" square  rather than the combos. They are mot must haves, but they sure come in handy from time to time. Even a cheapie will get you by until you can find better.
Randy


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## Franko (Apr 28, 2015)

I have several small double squares and I use them every day.

I rarely use the 45º on my builder's square, and almost never use the protractor head. Most of the time when I need to mark 45º I just use a drafting triangle.

I've found the center finder almost useless. The rule is right on the line and any mark you make, even with a blade is off the line. I always have to make several marks from different angles and estimate the center.


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## Bob V (Apr 28, 2015)

Thanks Franko, and everyone else!
I hadn't thought about the fact that the rule is right down the center-- but I guess if it wasn't, then the location of the center line would depend on how far your mark (maybe with a scribe) was from the rule-- and I suppose this might vary between individuals-right?  Your solution for finding centers of doing multiple lines to create a triangle or whatever-- seems like a great idea.
Bob


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## darkzero (Apr 28, 2015)

The proper way to use a center square is to mark at least 2 lines & never just one.


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## Franko (Apr 28, 2015)

In my experience it requires 4 lines at 90º with a center finder, three at 120º minimum. I don't see how two lines could be enough. If you make a line and then another from 180º, they will not meet in the center.


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## kingmt01 (May 5, 2015)

I have bought several nice things made in China. Tablet I'm typing on for one.  I have some iGuaging scales that are very accurate. Advertised to the half thousand. With costume firmware on a microcontroller they are good down to 2 ths. I have been using HF digital calipers for 20 years. I've bought 6 I think & 4 of them them are still working. One failed because the battery leaked & the terminal ate away. The other one never was good. It took good repeatable measurements but the display always flashed dead battery & if you left it sit a few months without use it drained the battery. One is just now starting to get a little lose but it still measures well. I bought some analog micrometers about 20 years ago from HF also & they still read good. I've checked my standards with my uncle's that own a machine shop & they were dead on with his. I adjusted them when I first got them & the one I use the most often I adjusted again about a year ago. I have kids so I'm not sure it wasn't them playing with them. I recently bought 2 dial indicators one that is from Hong Kong that is .001mm that has a really nice finish & is so smooth that came with two well created dove tail post & was packaged really nice. Cost me $10 TYD so I thought why not try it. At the same time I bought a Mitutoyo .001" with stand, case for the indicator, & 2 dove tail post. Even tho it came in with the case it wasn't in it & was just thrown in the bag with everything else. The finish wasn't great to start with having wavy sides more like cast instead of finished & it only came with one dove tail that you switch the two post in that are really rough made out of some really crappy metal. The stand isn't much better. On top of all that it gut really beat up in shipping.

This isn't the same for all Chinese tools. I usually expect to do some work to power tools but have had good ones for the most part. I recently bought several things from Grizzly with two of them being milling vices. One got really thrown around in shipping so the bent lead screw may have been from that but the other one was just crappy finishing. It still had casting sand in it, parts were missed painting, the turn table didn't have the slot to bolt it down, & I had to finish milling the slot for the one that was there so the bolt that came with it would fit. So I say it isn't where it is made but who made the specs for what is exceptable. I also got some 123 blocks that I didn't see how they could be screwed up but I was wrong. The holes are undersized so they can't be bolted together or even bolted to my table without making adaptors.


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## Bob V (May 5, 2015)

Thanks very much, guys, for the info-- I guess it's buyer beware for everything except maybe Starret which is so expensive-- I will probably use Starret and mainly Chinese--that I will have to inspect/modify.


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## kingmt01 (May 6, 2015)

I don't own any Starret but the way people talk about how the quaity has droped I don't think I want to spend that kind of money. I've had a really bad run the last couple weeks on the Grizzly stuff so I'm starting to wonder why waste my money. I really need to get my foundry built to start cassting some of my own stuff. I'm not very good at this stuff yet but I'll get there as I get time to play with it. I have made spacile tools to get those odd jobs done for years. This seems to be a little different tho. I seem to have to make a tool to make a tool to do a job. Sometimes I end up buying a tool to make the tool. Best deal I have bought so far is those Chinese center drills off eBay. I bought a set two years ago expecting them not to last very long but I haven't broken the first one.  Probably shouldn't have said that.


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## Bob V (May 6, 2015)

Thanks for the info! Didn't know Starret had quality issues now too!  --So sad, the decline of American excellence in all trades and manufacturing.
Bob


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