# Which DRO for 833TV



## j-becker (Aug 1, 2021)

I have a 833TV coming on the boat linked in the other thread and am considering my options for a DRO.  On my lathe, I went with the PM DRO but I feel confident enough to install it myself.  Unfortunately that really opens up the questions which one to get.  I know I would love to get a graphical display and a feed rate on the display sounds like a great benefit (but may only be available on the high end options).  So here are my options and questions: 

1) Eason 12B got a lot of recommendations in the past.  I can get it from China for about $5-600 with glass scales (w/o brackets, questionable warranty).  This is similar to the price level of the basic PM option but somehow I like the idea of a graphical interface.  Does that make sense or is a graphical interface not that useful?  I read in one threads that the Eason can display feeds but have not seen that anywhere in the descriptions (e.g. DRO Pros) . Can somebody confirm?

2) PM's MagXact has the advantage of magnetic scales for a great price ($800) and warranty but has neither graphical interface nor feeds.  How big of an advantage are magnetic scales for a hobby user in terms of durability?  Is it worth the smaller dimensions e.g. for Y-travel on the 833?  Apart from that it is probably the least hassle to install and come with great support.

3) EL700 via DRO Pros has all the features I want but at a high price ($1600+ with mag scales) for a hobby user.  Are there other sources than DRO Pros for the system, maybe without similar responsive support.  How much is support worth for a DRO?  

4) Sino DRO from Aliexpress with glass scales can be had for ~$280 shipped.  It gets pretty good reviews considering the price.  This is seriously cheap in comparison even if I would need to replace a scale or two down the road.   Or I could upgrade when I have some experience and know what I really need (want)...

All the above assumes a 3-axis DRO setup with a separate battery operated quill DRO.  Has anybody actually implemented a fourth axis for the quill on the 833? Looking at the price of a Mitutoyo scale a fourth axis is probably not ta question of cost.

I have been leaning to the Eason option for a while now (but I currently don't think I can get feeds displayed).  So now I am thinking Sino for starters and invest the difference in tooling (David Best' great list implies I need to budget at least as much for tooling as for the mill..).  If I don't like teh Sino DRO in use I am not out that much money after all and would have a bit more experience to judge whether the money for an EL700 is worth it to me.  

Where did all the other 833 owners land on this question?  What are other features should consider in comparing the DROs (e.g. "usability")? 

Thanks!
Johannes


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## mksj (Aug 1, 2021)

I have the EL-700 on my knee mill, ES-12B on the lathe, and have also worked on other machines with a wide range of DRO's. Graphical interface is easier on the eyes, and on the mill they have a range of additional features. Ofteh use the feed rates and near 0 warning, bolt holes, etc. Graphical interface costs more.

You can get inexpensive digital DRO's with glass scales on eBay, I do not see the value of Aliexpress for a saving a few dollars if you have a problem. They also have inexpensive graphical with glass scales, they work for some individuals. Many of these eBay vendors are in China and ship through a US site, at least through eBay you have some immediate recourse if it is not as described. Warranty is probably not going to happen.

Why buy an ES-12B from China with questionable service, and I do know of people that have had problems with their ES-12's and were rectified by US seller. You can buy it from PM/QMT for ~$700 with brackets. You could also check with them if they are going to carry the MagXact Magnetic MX-200L in a mill configuration.


			https://www.precisionmatthews.com/shop/pm-935droes12/
		


You can buy the ES-12B/C from the UK with 3 axis magnetic scales for ~$750 with air freight and arrives in 1 week, quite a few people have gone this route. You can trim the scales and the reader heads are small so you can either put the 3rd axis on the column or the quill. 








						Easson ES-12C LCD digital readout package including 3 linear magnetic encoders
					

3 Axis  Easson ES-12C LCD graphic digital readout package with three magnetic encoders. The encoders offer a very compact profile size and can be cut to length to custom fit the machine being installed. The package is suitable for mills up to Bridgeport 42" sized machines or 30" between centre...




					www.machine-dro.co.uk
				











						Easson ES-12B LCD digital readout package including 3 linear magnetic encoders
					

3 Axis  Easson ES-12B LCD graphic digital readout package with three magnetic encoders. The encoders offer a very compact profile size and can be cut to length to custom fit the machine being installed. The package is suitable for mills up to Bridgeport 42" sized machines or 30" between centre...




					www.machine-dro.co.uk
				




There are also tablet interface type DRO's


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## davidpbest (Aug 1, 2021)

Johannes,

This is one of those topics where opinions differ wildly, largely based on the commenters confirmation bias (justifying what they own), and how they use the machine.  I'll give you my two-cents, which I'm sure will be a minority opinion.  My comments are based largely on experience with and RF-45, which is similar in many respects to your 833.  If you were getting a knee mill, my views in some aspects would be different.

I had a Z-axis DRO on the head and almost never used it.  After repositioning the head,  I would re-calibrate the Quill DRO instead - by touching off and then lowering the quill the required depth of cut using the quill DRO for accurate positioning.  A stand alone Z-axis head DRO without axis summing to the quill DRO means you'll be doing a lot of math, and I never found the head DRO that accurate because of the inherent slop in the  head-to-column interface.
I have used DRO's with graphical interfaces on a couple of mills, and never found the graphical user interface of much value.  Recognize that I don't find myself drilling circular hole patterns very often, and I am usually working from a print or detailed CAD drawing.
In contrast to the touchscreen user interfaces, I prefer a display with real  push-buttons that confirm you have pressed the button with tactile feedback.  There's nothing more frustrating than pressing the "Half" button and not realize it didn't take your key stroke and your assumption about position is way off.
I do find the feed rate display is very helpful, particularly when working in ferrous materials where feeds & speeds are more critical.  I will routinely go to a Feed/Speed calculator app on my iPhone to understand the RPM and feed rate for a given material and cutting tool.  If the calculator says the feed should be 3-inches/minute, that's pretty hard to judge within a 50 percent tolerance without a feed rate display.  Before I added a DRO with feed rate display, I broke a LOT of end mills by misjudging the actual feed rates.  Some will say "just slow down the feed" which works sometimes, but leads to excessive tool wear and is exactly the wrong strategy when machining stainless steel.
My DRO brand preference is Newall.  I have a DROPro's EL400 on my lathe to get the 1 micron resolution on the cross slide (which Newall doesn't offer), and it's been fine.  But I prefer the Newall display head for readability and the tactile button interface, and the Newall is the easiest of all the DRO's to install.  You might consider the _*Newall NMS300*_ - it can be configured with scales that match the 833 if you call and talk to the US rep. That model is limited to two axis and does not have a feed rate display.  I have a 3-axis DP700 Newall kit on my PM-933 and love it, but it's clearly in a different price categoy from the others you mention in your post.


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## j-becker (Aug 1, 2021)

Hi Mike, 

Thanks a lot for the input.  I originally wanted to get the Eason 12B from PM but it turns out they don't sell them any longer.  Hence I looked at he more reputable Aliexpress sellers (I have been lucky so far), but probably buying from the UK is worth the extra few dollars going that route. 

Am I right that the Eason does not have feed rate info and I would only get that with the EL700 or similar range of DROs?


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## j-becker (Aug 1, 2021)

Hi David, 

Thanks a lot  for your explanations!  I had a quick look at the Newall options and it seems at first glance that a DP700 is in the same price range as an EL700.   I am still a bit hesitant to spend that much money without any first hand experience (but I guess this is the step up to a professional unit which are probably all going to work well). I would love to have the feed info but it seems to come with a hefty price tag indeed.

I am not sure I fully understand the comment about the inherent slop in the  head-to-column interface.  Is that a potential source of error when adding both axis?  Is that particular to a bench type mill?  

The point about primarily using just the quill DRO is a good one.  That implies that I could potentially just get away with a two axis DRO.  In that case the Newall option you were linking would be only slightly more than the MagXact.   However, the scales withteh Newall seem to require some additional length (they are listed as travel +10") so not sure how well that works on a bench type mill.


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## davidpbest (Aug 1, 2021)

j-becker said:


> I am not sure I fully understand the comment about the inherent slop in the  head-to-column interface.  Is that a potential source of error when adding both axis?  Is that particular to a bench type mill?


You will understand this once you get experience with your mill.  Suffice it to say that the movement of the head is not as precise as the movement of the quill simply because the head hangs on the dovetail ways of the column and must have some freedom at that interface for the head to move.  You can tighten the gib to remove muck of it, but if you remove all the play, the head will not move, or will move in a very jerky fashion.  DM me if you want further explanation.  The bottom line is that positioning the cutter via quill movement an subsequent locking of the quill will always be more precise than moving the head.  

My last RF-45 had a 2-axis Newall DP700 DRO with Microsystems scales, and a Multitoyo digital scale DRO on the quill.  I never felt the need to have a DRO on the head.  









						Installing a Mitutoyo 6-inch scale on RF45 Quill
					

Explore this photo album by David Best on Flickr!




					www.flickr.com
				




And as I said in my original post, Newall kits can be configured to your specific mill including shorter scales than the published versions.  Call the rep and discuss your needs.


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## j-becker (Aug 1, 2021)

Thanks again, I am going to look into that some more.  The Newall option was definitely not on my radar before.


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## Dallas (Aug 1, 2021)

unless it's a CNC graphics are useless IMO. i bought a 3 axis readout from banggood . I was skeptical. but when i got it, and installed it, wow it has a ton of features and works perfectly. zero issues with the DRO or the scales. only thing was i had to make my own brackets for the scales and reader heads. and i paid around 300 for everything.


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## mksj (Aug 1, 2021)

Easson has feed rate and tactile sealed buttons. Although I have the EL700 on my mill, it was more for the 4 axis and magnetic scales. The touch screen is OK, but a bit of a pain if your fingers are oily or wet. It also does not have a screen protection overlay which I added. Newall is an expensive option and there are some limitations as to the scale resolution depending on the application, only their microsyn scales are rated to a 5 um resolution. This is more of an issue with the lathe cross slide where one typically use a 1 micron.  I do not care for their displays, but that is a matter of opinion.

I previously had a benchtop mill and only went with an X and Y scale (Acurite DRO) and  never felt I needed a scale on the column. The quill had a battery operated DRO that was good enough. When moving the head up and down, the position changes when it is locked. Also over time due to uneven wear you can get some inward nod of the head. Depends on the work and the accuracy.

QMT/PM still list the ES-12B but seems like they are replacing it with the newer version of the EL-700 which is the EL-750 under their brand name. It all comes down to how much you want to spend and features. The cost of the magnetic scales have come down and they are an easier install, in particular if you are going to use the 3rd axis for the Quill.


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## j-becker (Aug 1, 2021)

Thanks Mark, I found the feed speed function in the ES12 manual.  Sounds like you can only choose to have speed or position from a disclaimer but I don't think that matters.  The new Accurite DROs look very nice.  Didn't know that this is a German brand. 

And thanks for the explanation with the locking and the potential nod -- that would clearly defeat a DRO.


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## j-becker (Aug 1, 2021)

Thanks Dallas, that looks pretty similar to the Sino DRO I was looking at.  The price makes this a compelling value proposition as well.  Do you happen to know whether it got a feed speed functionality?


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## Dallas (Aug 1, 2021)

j-becker said:


> Thanks Mark, I found the feed speed function in the ES12 manual.  Sounds like you can only choose to have speed or position from a disclaimer but I don't think that matters.  The new Accurite DROs look very nice.  Didn't know that this is a German brand.
> 
> And thanks for the explanation with the locking and the potential nod -- that would clearly defeat a DRO.


accurite was purchased by Heidenhain, but they are still made in Jamestown NY, I believe they are now using the German scales. their manufacturing shop is only about 30 miles from me. Great product, but expensive.

​


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## Dallas (Aug 1, 2021)

j-becker said:


> Thanks Dallas, that looks pretty similar to the Sino DRO I was looking at.  The price makes this a compelling value proposition as well.  Do you happen to know whether it got a feed speed functionality?


when you say speed and feed, do you mean as in a speed and feed calculator, or are you looking for spindle rpm and actual inch per minute rate that your axis moving? it does have the S&F calc, but i'll have to look if it registers feed rate. there is nothing that would provide spindle rpm.


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## j-becker (Aug 1, 2021)

I was looking for the actual feed rate (e.g. in in/min) that the table is moving at. 

Thanks for the detail on the acquisition -- I was surprised today to find that they are part of Heidenhain.


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## Dallas (Aug 1, 2021)

j-becker said:


> I was looking for the actual feed rate (e.g. in in/min) that the table is moving at.
> 
> Thanks for the detail on the acquisition -- I was surprised today to find that they are part of Heidenhain.


I just looked at mine, it does not show feed rate.  The last Accurite DRO I installed, probably 3 years ago on a friends mill, i had to turn off 10ths so resolution is now .001,  when it was set to .0001 the last digit was constantly flickering between 2 digits, super annoying! and I hate to admit it but this cheap china readout is rock solid in .0001 resolution.


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## mksj (Aug 2, 2021)

The speed function is pretty common in most graphical displays, in the ES-12 B or C it is shown separately at the bottom and you can select any axis. I have not had  any issues with digit flicker in any of the DRO's I have installed, typically more common in the generic style ones and they show something like 5 decimal places. It is possible that a glass scale may be more prone to vibration and number flicker, but also depends on the filtering of the VFD. Acu-Rite, Newall, and some of the higher end have better warranties and hold-up better under heavy use, just pricey. My other concern with some of these DRO's is their proprietary scale interfaces, which makes scale replacement very costly.


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## Christianstark (Aug 2, 2021)

J-becker, PM does have the newer graphical displays available now. It hasn't made it on to the website yet, but I called and upgraded both DRO's to the graphical. If you look at lathe DRO's you can see what it looks like, it just hasn't been listed on the mill pages yet.



			https://www.precisionmatthews.com/shop/magxact-magnetic-mx-200l-2-axis-lathe-lcd-dro-10x60-inch-scales/


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## f350ca (Aug 2, 2021)

I bought one of the Chinese 3 axis DRO's with glass scales for my knee mill from Aliexpress a few years ago. Has worked flawlessly. It had the led readout. In the afternoon the sun shines in the window and washed out the display. Got tired of shielding it with my hand to read the numbers so recently bought a LCD display from DRO Pros off Ebay cheap, $150 delivered to Canada. I came wired for magnetic scales, with a note on the order they shipped the plugs for glass scales. I had to swap them out. Worked with my old scales. Checked the accuracy with gauge blocks, pretty much spot on. 
For hobby use can't see the advantage of the expensive packages that come from China anyway.

Greg


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## Ken226 (Aug 2, 2021)

Dallas said:


> i had to turn off 10ths so resolution is now .001,  when it was set to .0001 the last digit was constantly flickering between 2 digits, super annoying! and I hate to admit it but this cheap china readout is rock solid in .0001 resolution.



Both of my Dro displays have a setting to buffer this vibration induced flicker.

On my Ditron,  it's the little sine-wave logo.   F5 key in this pic.





I don't remember how to turn it on for the Yihao display on my mill, Its been awhile since I read the Chinglish manual. The mill is smooth enough that it doesn't have that issue anyway.  (I think the setting that buffers it is labeled "shake")

Sometimes when turning something off 
center, unbalanced, it a heavy interrupted cut, my Ditron will flicker on the last digit.   That f5 button fixes it.


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## Ken226 (Aug 2, 2021)

f350ca said:


> I bought one of the Chinese 3 axis DRO's with glass scales for my knee mill from Aliexpress a few years ago. Has worked flawlessly. It had the led readout. In the afternoon the sun shines in the window and washed out the display. Got tired of shielding it with my hand to read the numbers so recently bought a LCD display from DRO Pros off Ebay cheap, $150 delivered to Canada. I came wired for magnetic scales, with a note on the order they shipped the plugs for glass scales. I had to swap them out. Worked with my old scales. Checked the accuracy with gauge blocks, pretty much spot on.
> For hobby use can't see the advantage of the expensive packages that come from China anyway.
> 
> Greg



I got the same one.   It's a Ditron D80 display.  Oddly, DRO Pros was blowing out the 2 axis version for 59$.  I had to swap in the internal cables for the glass scales, but it's been running like a champ.


I went and verified it in my manuals since my memory isn't so great.   On the Ditron, it's the F5 sine wave button that filters the last digit flicker





On my Yihao,  it's the one that says "shake".


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## f350ca (Aug 2, 2021)

Thats the one Ken, forget the actual price, with shipping and duties and exchange it was just under $150 cdn.


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## Ken226 (Aug 2, 2021)

f350ca said:


> Thats the one Ken, forget the actual price, with shipping and duties and exchange it was just under $150 cdn.



Yup!  I'm loving it so far.

Originally, I had a Yihao display on both machines.    Awhile back I decided to  upgrade my lathes  x axis scale to a Sino low profile 1 micron scale.  But, the scale ended up being rs422 push/pull quadrature, and my Yihao display wouldn't read it.  

None of the other half dozen Chinese displays I had in my junk cabinet would read the Sino scale either, except the ToAuto,  when I re-pinned its 0v, 5v A and B reads to the appropriate pins.  And that display had non-functional axis zero keys, so it was out.
   I ended up with an Amazon ToAuto TTL 4 wire scale on my z, and a Sino RS422 9 wire scale on my X.    

I contacted DRO Pros, and they mentioned that this Ditron D80 would read both open ended TTL and RS422 push/pull quadrature signals simultaneously.     So,  I ordered it,  swapped in their glass scale ribbons,  and re-pinned my ToAuto scales db9 plug to match the Ditron scale.  It's been running great so far.

I think there's a bit of confusion amongst Chinese manufacturers and sellers about the definition of TTL RS422.    They seem to have seperate the two, and are calling push/pull TTL signal rs422,  and the open ended signals TTL.   Once I figured this out, it was alot easier to figure out which scales would run on which displays.

It was an educational experience.  All my experimenting resulted in a pile of cheap Chinese displays and scales.  Ive cut various scales down to custom sizes, swapped and rewired the read heads and displays internal connections.     Most of them, I ended up rewiring into functional kits and giving away to friends.    I still have 3 displays and 2-1/2  scales for spare parts/backup units.


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## j-becker (Aug 2, 2021)

Christianstark said:


> J-becker, PM does have the newer graphical displays available now. It hasn't made it on to the website yet, but I called and upgraded both DRO's to the graphical. If you look at lathe DRO's you can see what it looks like, it just hasn't been listed on the mill pages yet.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.precisionmatthews.com/shop/magxact-magnetic-mx-200l-2-axis-lathe-lcd-dro-10x60-inch-scales/


Thanks a lot for that info, Christian!  I assume that it is similar to the EL700 (EL750) display.  I have reached out again to PM.  Funny that they didn't mention that when I asked for the Eason display a few weeks ago.


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## Christianstark (Aug 2, 2021)

j-becker said:


> Thanks a lot for that info, Christian!  I assume that it is similar to the EL700 (EL750) display.  I have reached out again to PM.  Funny that they didn't mention that when I asked for the Eason display a few weeks ago.


It looks to be a rebranded EL7##


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## Dallas (Aug 2, 2021)

Ken226 said:


> I got the same one.   It's a Ditron D80 display.  Oddly, DRO Pros was blowing out the 2 axis version for 59$.  I had to swap in the internal cables for the glass scales, but it's been running like a champ.
> 
> 
> I went and verified it in my manuals since my memory isn't so great.   On the Ditron, it's the F5 sine wave button that filters the last digit flicker
> ...


The acu-rite VUE flickered when the mill was  running or not . maybe there is a setting for it.... not that i can find in the manual


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## EVMiller (Aug 15, 2021)

You could make your own with 1 micron Ditron magnetic scales and a TouchDRO (and support a board sponsor as well) for around $4-450 for the hardware:
Ditron magnetic scales
TouchDro

You will also need an Android device for a touch screen or a Raspberry PI 4 running an Android rom like LineageOS if you prefer a regular keyboard and monitor. I used 32ish inches of angle iron and 1 inch bar I had lying around for the mounts. Ugly as heck and super simple but they work perfectly! 

The Ditron heads and Yuriy's dro work great together, no flickering digits even at .0001.


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## Cletus (Aug 15, 2021)

As David said, opinions differ greatly. At first I wanted an Easson 12B but it was not available to come in the crate with my mill.  I have PM's new 3-axis LCD DRO and glass scales coming with my knee mill. But, I also bought this display on Amazon for $103 (was a really great price) and hope to use it with the PM scales.
Yesterday, I ordered a Shars' 6" Quill DRO also.


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## j-becker (Aug 15, 2021)

Thanks a lot for all the great input on the options.  I approached PM again and they offer a graphical version of their MagXact DRO for the 833 (thanks again, Christian) -- I ordered that one for the mill.  

I looked long and hard at the TouchDRO.  They seems to work well when combined with reasonable quality scales like Ditron.  However, I have already a few projects lined up where I want to use the mill and did not want to add another one.  But I bought a Ditron glass scale cheap on ebay from DROPRos and want to give it a try.


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## bollie7 (Aug 16, 2021)

I haven't had time to read all of these posts so my apologies if I repeat some thing that has already been said. 
So, in 2019 I bought a 3 axis DRO from Aliexpress. It looks the same as the one shown in Post no 27. At the time a 4 axis was considerably more expensive than the 3 axis so I was also going to use a battery powered on on the quill. What I ended up doing though was to buy another scale for the quill and a computer serial port switch. So now I can switch between the knee scale and the quill scale on the Z axis. I figured I probably wouldn't be wanting to use both DRO on by knee and quill at the same time. I just made an aluminium bracket to pick up the unused mounting holes on the back of the DRO and the serial switch is mounted vertically on the LHS of the dro display. Unfortunately I cant find any pics just at the moment.
Peter


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## Cletus (Aug 16, 2021)

I just made-up three 9-pin (DB9) adapters so the PM glass scales I'm getting may work with the YH-800-3 DRO Display, we'll soon see how this works out:
*DB9 (male)     DB9 (female)
1  ---------------->  7
2  ---------------->  2
3  ---------------->  6
4  ---------------->  8*


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