# Basic Tools for Restoration of a small lathe?



## Polktools (Feb 6, 2020)

I have a rather cheap and old Craftsman 109 Lathe that isn't a prized pig by any means, but I think it would be a good project/challenge to see how precise I can get it, and it's of a ship-able size if I decide to sell to move up in the lathe world. Ways are 3" by 22" and I only have a surface plate of sized 12" x 18" x 3". It's used, A Grade but I would like to check it's accuracy. Any size larger would be outside of my budget. I'll probably need a precision straight edge, but those are quite expensive as well, and I paid 125 for this little lathe I'm thinking about buying an old cast iron carpenter's level and scraping it in as a parallel, or looking for an off cut of durabar or other grey cast iron and making a straight edge, another exercise to learn. I am a member of a makerspace so I have access to larger lathes and mills there if I need to machine down raw stock.

This thing is little, so I don't want to put a grand into precision tools that are application specific. I have a bench grinder and some other motors/arbors for a diamond wheel, and I got a good amount of C style carbide lathe tools that I plan to shape into scrapers and braze onto handles (based on Oxtools Monday night meatloaf 118 about 45min in). Eventually building the Keith Rucker style hand scraper if I take a knack to it. I also got a set of EZE diamond laps and diamond files. for measurement have a set of Gage Blocks, digital calipers, 123 Blocks, V Blocks, Sine Bar, Vernier and Dial Height Gauges (Browne and Sharpe that I plan to restore), and I am picking up some Vintage Brown and Sharpe surface gauges to restore as well from the same friend I got the Height Gauges from.

My next purchases are for a 6" machinist level (Starret or one of the Shars precision Frame Levels), Precision Squares (or could I get away with the 123's?), indicators (test and dial .001 and .0005, or any recommendations?), Micrometers (probably a 0-4 set), and I need to figure out something to do as a straight edge for flats V's and Dovetails. The ways are double V Style with 3 inches edge to edge and 22" length, which is  about an inch over the hypotenuse of my surface plate. I will probably need some shim stock, gauge pins, and other bits and bobs that I have no idea about. I also need to get spotting dies rollers, way oil and oilers, gear oil, and other oils/cleaners, so any advice on  must haves for cleaning stripping and oiling would be greatly appreciated. 

I know I should get into a class or find a mentor, but I really want  to test the waters, and many of the things I own and plan to get are things that I would need to own anyway as a hobby machinist. Abom79's Video with Lance Baltzley along with Stefan Gotteswinter and Robin Renzetti have been great resources. 

Finding good cast iron references at affordable prices is the biggest financial hurdle for a novice like myself. The Granite surface plate I have and know I can continue to make use of, but spending hundreds on castings in a hard decision to make (hence considering turning an old cast iron carpenter level into a parallel/straight edge)

I plan to get a pair of these stones based on recommendations you've made elsewhere: 

"Item Quick View: 00579425

In Stock
Price: $15.51 ea.
Item Notes
MSDS Available
Sharpening Stones; Stone Material: Aluminum Oxide; Overall Width/Diameter (Inch): 1-3/4; Overall Length (Inch): 1/4; Shape: Round Edge Slip; Grade: Medium MSC Part #:00579425 Brand:Norton Big Book Page #:1054 Mfr Part #:61463687150 "


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## Chewy (Feb 7, 2020)

Most of the tools you listed are for milling.  Do you have a mill?  For a lathe, application specific would be chucks and maybe tool holders.  The most used tools on a lathe would be micrometers, dial calipers and dial indicators.  Get your stuff from Ebay.  I paid $45 for my 98-6 Starrett. If possible get good used name brand measuring tools.  If not available, get Shars, HHIP and Igauging.  They are "better" Asian tools. If you can use 3/8" & 1/2" shank tools, they will take you all the way up in lathe sizes. You can always get bigger shank tools for bigger lathes and projects, but you will always find a use for the smaller tools.

Put the 1/2/3 blocks on the ways and put the level on them for checking.  The lathe doesn't have to be perfectly level, but it does help. It cannot have any wind, warp, or twist.  That will mess you up.  Make Something Cool has a way to erect a vertical rod and use a plumb bob effect to check for that. A good Stanley or Empire level from the big box stores will get you started. There are people on this forum who have only ever used that for their lathes. Not certain what you want all this cast iron stuff for.  If you plan to go into scraping, Richard King style, then it would be useful. Other then that, it will not find much use in a hobby shop.  A good set of 9" or 12" parallels from KBC or Travers will do you more good.

First get you lathe as "flat" as possible.  Then do a head-stock, tail-stock check for alignment. Use a large round bar with the middle turned down.  Turn the ends and measure.  Or use a smaller rod and press some pieces of stock on , turn & measure.  Mr Pete style. 

Take each step one at at a time and ask questions here about it.  There is a wealth of knowledge here to help you solve your problems. On stone, oil, insert recommendations, tool sharpening, etc you will have more info then you can handle.   Good luck Charles


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## Polktools (Feb 7, 2020)

Thank you for the tips! Your thoughts on the Cast Iron definitely matches mine, I'd like them for scraping but not sure how much use I would get away from that task, so I'd like to not invest heavily in straight edges and parallels. I got the "C" Brazed Carbide lathe tools to make my first scrapers.  I plan to use High Speed Steel cutters on the lathe itself, I figure it couldn't hurt to practice grinding tool bits, and I won't hit the speeds and feeds to benefit from carbide anyway. I have a portaband on a vertical stand and bench grinder to shape the C cutters and braze to cold rolled flat bar and fashion the handles on the wood lathe at our makerspace. 

Great recommendations on tools, you hit the nail on the head that I am trying to go with tools that I will use well after restoring and improving this lathe. My ultimate goal would be to eventually trade up to a larger atlas or southbend, and restore it.


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## Chewy (Feb 7, 2020)

Do you know that the lathe can be used for milling? I read somewhere it is the only tool that can repair itself.  Might want to look into a milling attachment.  Once you get it, you can make tools to help you along.  Will it replace a Bridgeport?  No. It will replace some of the cheaper, baby toy mills though. 

Be forewarned, the cheapest part of machining is the machine itself.  You will probably spend as much or more on tooling. I plan all my stuff  2-4 months in advance. Then start collecting material, tooling and making fixtures on my terms. Saves a lot of money that way. This summer plans are for 3D printer, casting metal and then steam engines. 

For example, I have spent the last day and half making my rotary table usable.  Nothing wrong with the table.  Just every-time I use it, nothing fits.  I am making small hold-downs, tee nuts and other clamps.  Next is a small stackblock. Tom's Techniques and Mr Pete have videos on it. Then on to a custom mini pallet.

Welcome to a fun hobby and with a little planning you can minimize you expenses.  Charles


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## Richard King 2 (Feb 9, 2020)

The hand scraper that you call a Keith Rucker, is a copy of a BIAX Hand scraper.  He copied a new one.  I hope he isn't saying it's his design.  I sent it to him by the way.   If I were you, I would call Axel Fors machine in Ogden who is a machine rebuilder with a planner and have him plane the bed.   Double V is difficult to scrape and get an accurate job.  Then you don't need to buy a long straight edge, just buy a 12" Kingway or 9" Rucker SE.   You should also buy a copy of The Edward Connelly Book  Machine Tool Reconditioning.   Chewy I started this King-way forum so I can give advise to people...please give your advice in the machine reconditioning forum.


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## vtcnc (Feb 9, 2020)

Hi everyone, I moved the thread per Richard's request. In the future, please start machine restoration and scraping threads here unless invited by Richard to start a thread in his sponsored forum.

Thanks for your understanding.


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## Winegrower (Feb 9, 2020)

A personal opinion is rather than spend a lot of time fixing up this lathe, sell it as is, and purchase a lathe that will serve you long term and that is ready to use without major effort.   Become a machinist instead of a restorer.    You can always work on the new bigger lathe as much as you want.

A friend purchased a 6" craftsman, and added the standard range of QCTP, tool holders, etc, all 0XA sized.    He soon realized that he needed a 12" lathe, and of course all the tooling was too small and needed to be reacquired in BXA size.


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## Dabbler (Feb 9, 2020)

@Polktools, before beginning your grand project you need to assess what actually needs doing on the lathe, and of the things that need doing, and which ones will make the biggest difference in the operation of the lathe. 

-You already know that it has to be set up properly and checked before you do anything to it.  
-Many lathes need only minor work before using them, such as missing bolts, etc.
-Are the ways really in bad shape and need reconditioning?  Or are you wanting to recondition them as a learning exercise? I'm going to second Richards comment on the lathe bed reconditioning. My 2 cents:  To do that really does require a table full of equipment and a wheelbarrow full of cash to do a good job.  A bad job will just destroy the lathe.  You need to set up the lathe (lots of youtube videos tell you how to do this) and take very precise measurements using a quality micrometer and dial test indicator (_in addition to_ plunge test indicator) to diagnose where it's inaccuracies are.
(after that there are a hundred more steps too long to discuss in this short response)

Just the learning and execution of the first step can take you a long time if it is your first lathe refurbish.  After that, you will have a good idea of what to do to the lathe.  Many old worn out lathes are a couple thou out in the bed, and they are still perfectly usable.  On a tiny lathe like that, 90% of the work will be less than 1" long and less than 1.5" in diameter.  So you need to have a short amount of the bed straight, true and at proper working height to be usable.  Please try to keep in mind that redoing the whole bed is a waste of time, unless your real objective is the learning of the entire craft of machinery rebuilding.  That will take years and thousands of dollars of equipment before your are barely competent.

It is romantic to get a lathe and start working there.  _*However* _I'd really recommend you get an old rotary table and rebuild it to perfection first. Stefan Gotteswinter did a brand new vertex, and his video on it is very instructive. Your currect tools and plan is far better suited to doing a rotary table, and old ones are beginning to turn up at auctions and craigslist for affordable prices. You only need a decent surface plate , scrapers, bluing and time to do a good job there, It can be done without knowing all the difficulties of making accurate measurements on a bigger tool. In fact a better start is to make a set of parallels out of durabar to get used to measuring, scraping, and fussing. And knowing when to stop is another valuable lesson in making parallels. So parallels, then rotary table, then lathe is a good progression...

I really hope that helps.


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## wa5cab (Feb 10, 2020)

...


Winegrower said:


> A friend purchased a 6" craftsman, and added the standard range of QCTP, tool holders, etc, all 0XA sized.    He soon realized that he needed a 12" lathe, and of course all the tooling was too small and needed to be reacquired in BXA size.



I would disagree with the BXA statement.  An AXA is as large as you need on a 12" and will be less expensive both now and later.


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## Winegrower (Feb 10, 2020)

Wa5cab, AXA was too big for a 6”, and 0XA is too small for a 12”.  It still needs a tooling change.


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## Polktools (Feb 10, 2020)

I had posted this in Richard King's forum because I was mainly seeking out his advise, but I appreciate all the opinions shared. I think I'll take that advise and forego reconditioning the ways, and if they truly need it I'll have it planed or ground. Thanks for the suggestion of Axle Fors, I looked into it and I think he's listed as A W Fors Machine Shop, and the address is in Salt Lake, So they may have moved down from Ogden, which makes things perfect for me.

If I nix the idea of working on the bed, that leaves everything open to the size I currently have, surface plate wise, though I will still likely need a straight edge for dovetails and interior surfaces, Maybe I'll try my hand at building one of those from durabar. I also have an adjustable Angle plate and Cross Slide Rotary table to work with, so maybe  I'll get some work done with those.


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## Richard King 2 (Feb 11, 2020)

Thanks for understanding about my sponsored forum.  I use it so I can answer questions as a professional Machine Rebuider and no guessing from others.  Also to show info on my classes.   

  Many times one starts to dream about scraping in a machine and they never consider the cost to do it the right way.  If your only planning on doing one machine, you have to consider costs and skill.   I love to help folks learn , but one has to be realistic.  I told a guy a couple of days ago when he asked if he could rebuild his Bridgeport after watching my 60 minute video.   I said would you let a person do brain surgery on you after only watching a 60 minute video?   Benchee (John York) and Rex Waters are good examples. They have spent years acquiring tools and a skill to rescrape  machines.  Sure it is romantic to dream of doing it, but it is so easy to screw something up worse then it was.


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## Polktools (Feb 11, 2020)

Main reason I wanted to start small with a cheap old craftsman. It would be a good opportunity to learn and practice, and the stakes are low. This weekend I'm getting a quick change toolpost for the lathe as well as a few indicators, surface gauges and mounts. I'm also going to get a couple of those tapered stones, a 6" Precision Level, and a couple small machinist squares. I figure these are all things that I will need and make use of in machining anyway. The main things people address on these little machines are the gibs and spindle bearings, so i'll level everything, take some measurements and cuts, then start with those. If I need to have the bed addressed I'll have that done professionally, everything else I'll try my hand at. messing up any of the single components isn't too risky because these things are parted out on ebay constantly, so finding a replacement casting wouldn't be too hard. I know it takes years to get a measure of competency, but everyone starts somewhere, maybe I'll take a shine to it enough to take a class. I just hope you're still teaching when that time comes!


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