# Are Good Used Lathes Like Unicorns?



## MtnBiker

Got back from visiting a "7/10" Mori Seiki MS 850. Local machinist. On this peach we had an inoperative brake, a threading handle that needed a cheater bar to engage, a cross slide that slid nice one way and felt like it had rocks inside in the other direction, and a carriage handle that seemed to hang up on each tooth. The tailstock spindle had at least 1-2 mm of play. The same machinist showed me .0001" tolerance aerospace fittings he was cranking out on his Hardinge chucker (which wasn't for sale unsurprisingly). 

The more I look local (here in AZ) and extend out to CA even, the more I'm seeing the reason why people make new lathes. The value just seems entirely used up. Factoring in reconditioning after the sale, I'm most of the way to a PM-1640 (or equivalent). What am I missing? I want to learn how to use a lathe, not how to rebuild one.  I know I live in a literal desert, but the landscape for machine tools seems much the same. Not seeing the value on the used market. Anyone else have the same experience?


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## .LMS.

I think the answer to your question is "yes".   I looked daily for over 2 years and could not find anything close to the balance of price, condition, proximity (100 mile radius) and features that I wanted.   Ended up getting the PM1236T and my only regret is not making that call sooner.


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## matthewsx

Unicorns are way more common.


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## 7milesup

The answer to your question is YES.
As others have pointed out, Unicorns that fart pixie dust into a rainbow are much easier to find.

Seems like everyone recommends Precision Matthews, but I just purchased an Eisen 1440 lathe for about $3k less than a PM.  Same machine except for the spindle bore size.


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## westerner

I live in the same machinery desert, and only 2 hrs north of the REAL desert. 
I searched for, and lusted after, a decent lathe and mill for years. 
I was getting really close to heating my credit card to the melting point, but I could not commit.
I did, finally, commit to building the 'boot money' to a useful value.

Being able to haul ass to the machine with CASH in hand made the difference for me. 
I followed Craigslist like a nut, and when the machine came up, I got in the truck and WENT. 

It really did take 2 years, but I regret nothing else......


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## Nogoingback

Yes, and as American machines get older it just gets harder.  Everyone wants to find the 
Ferrari in the barn, but there really aren't many out there.


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## erikmannie

MtnBiker said:


> Got back from visiting a "7/10" Mori Seiki MS 850. Local machinist. On this peach we had an inoperative brake, a threading handle that needed a cheater bar to engage, a cross slide that slid nice one way and felt like it had rocks inside in the other direction, and a carriage handle that seemed to hang up on each tooth. The tailstock spindle had at least 1-2 mm of play. The same machinist showed me .0001" tolerance aerospace fittings he was cranking out on his Hardinge chucker (which wasn't for sale unsurprisingly).
> 
> The more I look local (here in AZ) and extend out to CA even, the more I'm seeing the reason why people make new lathes. The value just seems entirely used up. Factoring in reconditioning after the sale, I'm most of the way to a PM-1640 (or equivalent). What am I missing? I want to learn how to use a lathe, not how to rebuild one.  I know I live in a literal desert, but the landscape for machine tools seems much the same. Not seeing the value on the used market. Anyone else have the same experience?



I bought new because I was anxious to get cutting. Even then, there was plenty to do (rigging, leveling, flood coolant, cleaning off “cosmoline” and more).

+1 on the PM-1440 idea. I bought a PM-1660TL & I am super happy with it.

My friend just bought a used lathe, and it has multiple issues that he needs to work through before he can get cutting.


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## erikmannie

The funny thing here is that every person who chooses to buy a new machine helps to solve the problem mentioned in the OP: the purchaser of the new machine is good to go right out of the gate AND leaves one used machine (that he would have bought if he chose used) out there in the used machine population.

Down the line, when the purchaser of the new machine moves on from that machine, you add one more used machine to the used machine population.

If everybody started buying new machines, you’d see the prices of those used ones coming down real fast!


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## hman

@MtnBiker - I can definitely sympathize with your plight.  I'm OK myself, but have been on the lookout for a lathe to suggest for a friend in Surprise.  No joy.  Pretty slim pickin's out here!


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## hman

PS - if your search area could extend to California, you might find it worthwhile to look at the thread, https://www.hobby-machinist.com/forums/place-craigslist-marketplace-offer-up-ads-here.197/
@MrWhoopee is amazingly diligent and thorough at finding and posting ads for various machine tools.  Kudos to you, @MrWhoopee !


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## cathead

Looking at the new machines similar in size to what I have I see the new stuff is pretty light weight in comparison.  My old
Monarch weighs at least 6000 pounds and a new lathe in 1640 category is about a third of that.  I would gain the ability
to machine a more accurate cylindrical surface possibly and do metric threading but would lose rigidity for sure.  Even a worn
machine can do good work if one knows it's limitations.  The Monarch has served me well and has seen a lot of improvements
so it gets to sit where it is for years to come.  If someone stole my Monarch(not likely) I would find another one to replace it.


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## Braeden P

I've never found a unicorn but I found a 1941 lathe with 0.0002 tir lots of lathes near me in great condition not many new ones for sale but out there I would get a new lathe finding a old lathe in good condition out there is hard. My lathe is a 9x15 and weighs 1500 lbs  new ones of that size are really light. buy a new one


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## tjb

Ditto from Georgia.  I searched for a couple of years as well.  Ended up buying a new Eisen 1440.  Only regret was that I didn't buy it sooner.  And like erikmannie noted, I added a pretty nice used Chinese 1340 to the marketplace.  Had SIX offers in the first two or three days listed on Craig's List.  First guy to show up bought it.

We have just as much of an equipment desert here as you guys have in AZ.  For example, I've been trying to find a nice surface grinder for a couple of years.  If a good one shows up, it's usually gone before I've finished reading the ad.  Some junk has been out there for years but nothing worth buying.  Still looking.

Regards


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## ArmyDoc

Seems to be two factors when considering used machinery

1) the distance you are willing to travel.  
For me this is one of the biggest problems.  I want to go see it before I spend thousands of dollars, and driving more than ~2-3 hours a way becomes a rate limiting factor when you consider you have to drive back too.  

2) the price you are willing to pay.  
A PM 1640TL is a $15,000 machine.  Most of the time, it seems like people want to find used machines for <$5,000.  That's really an apples to oranges comparison.  I suspect there are a lot more used quality used machines out there in the ~$10,000 price range that might be in very good condition.


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## Marbles

I waited 50 years to get a good used lathe. What a joke. Tired old crap is tired old crap. I bought a brand new china made 9x20 lathe and I have enjoyed it every time I use it. 

I also bought a China made milling machine. It does a terrific job on everything I do with it.

Affordable, usable, and get it now.

The caution I would mention is beware of the machines that use their own special mounting for the chucks and get a common quill size.


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## 7milesup

Also of note and referencing TJB (Terry's) post...
I had a PM1022 Chinese lathe before I bought my 1440E  Eisen.  I paid about $1700 for it a few years ago.  I placed an ad on a Thursday night for $2400 just for the heck of it, not thinking it would sell.  Friday morning I get a message "I will take it".  At first I thought it was a scam but turns out he lived just 7 miles away from me.  He came and picked it up that afternoon.  I used a machine for 5 years and sold it for $700 more than I paid for it.


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## tjb

7milesup said:


> Also of note and referencing TJB (Terry's) post...
> I had a PM1022 Chinese lathe before I bought my 1440E  Eisen.  I paid about $1700 for it a few years ago.  I placed an ad on a Thursday night for $2400 just for the heck of it, not thinking it would sell.  Friday morning I get a message "I will take it".  At first I thought it was a scam but turns out he lived just 7 miles away from me.  He came and picked it up that afternoon.  I used a machine for 5 years and sold it for $700 more than I paid for it.


I find myself usually on the 'buying' end of deals like that.  Do you give lessons?


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## Janderso

westerner said:


> It really did take 2 years, but I regret nothing else......


What did you get for the two year wait?
Pics please


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## Janderso

hman said:


> Kudos to you, @MrWhoopee !


+1


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## 7milesup

Ha Terry!!
I also sold a welding table on Sunday.  36" x 48".  1/2" steel top and it was on casters.  Bought it for $200 about two years ago.  Sold it for $400.


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## tjb

7milesup said:


> Ha Terry!!
> I also sold a welding table on Sunday.  36" x 48".  1/2" steel top and it was on casters.  Bought it for $200 about two years ago.  Sold it for $400.


Next time I have a piece of equipment to sell, I plan on retaining you as my agent.


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## Janderso

Something you may want to think about.
In my case, I saw an add on Craigslist for a Clausing lathe at a machinery dealer in Sacramento.
I went down to check it out. I didn't by it because it was worn out.
I did find several lathes that interested me. 
I asked about one in particular, got the price and a little bit of the history. It is a Clausing Colchester 15X50, made in England around 1975.
I went home and thought about it. They also had 3 LeBlond lathes that came from the same community college.
I went back with some measuring/inspection equipment. I pulled off the head cover and went through my inspection process. We ran it, put it through the speeds, auto feeds etc.
I ended up buying the 15X50 and have been very happy with it. This was two years ago.
This same machinery dealer had hundreds of machine tools for wood and metal.
Just another option to consider.


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## talvare

I went through the same experience as others here when searching for a lathe. I knew I wanted a substantial lathe in the 13" - 15" range. I looked for almost two years to find something I wanted fairly close to home. It seemed that anything I was really interested in was for sale in Southern California. I finally decided I was going to have to travel to get what I wanted. I found three lathes for sale at the same time, all of which would have been satisfactory. I contacted all of the sellers to make arrangements to see the machines and made the trip (500 miles one way). I ended up purchasing a very nice Graziano SAG14 lathe for less than 1/3 the price of one of the new Asian machines. It was a lot of effort to get it, but I've never regretted buying it. Sometimes you just have to put in a little extra work to get what you want.
Ted


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## slodat

I casually looked for a lathe for a couple years. When I decided I was ready to buy the lathe I had been watching for a couple months was still for sale. I bought a 1953 American Pacemaker 14x30 with a Newall DRO. It has quite a bit of backlash in the cross slide and compound. The DRO and a dial indicator take care of that. The rest works really well. I'm happy with my purchase. It's a 5000 pound beast that will outlast me. I have been to a few dealers. They have always had nice lathes for sale for somewhat reasonable prices. If you are limiting your search to individuals, you may be missing out on what the dealers have. Also, watch the machinery auctions.


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## NCjeeper

hman said:


> @MrWhoopee is amazingly diligent and thorough at finding and posting ads for various machine tools.  Kudos to you, @MrWhoopee !


Yep if it is out there Whoopee will find it for you.


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## NCjeeper

It took me a couple of years to find my Monarch 16x54 lathe. I was checking Craig's list and E-Bay pretty regularly. I woke up around noon that day (I was working nights) and fixed breakfast and played on the computer. I checked Craig's list and there it was. The unicorn. The ad had been up only a few hours. I called the seller (thank goodness the ad listed a phone number) and he said there were buyers coming from everywhere and first one he gets it. He wouldn't take a deposit to reserve. Map Quest said it was a 2 hour drive to the seller from my place. So now it is 1:30 and I have to be at work at 4. I called my supervisor and told him I was taking a couple of hours of vacation time at the front end of my shift. I jumped in my truck and stopped by the ATM on the way and grabbed 500 dollars (the most you can withdraw at one time). I got there first and it was still there. It was not hooked up to power so I couldn't run it. All I could do was the basic checks on it. Seller wanted full payment and wouldn't accept just a deposit. Never had to do that before buying other equipment, but his rules. I had to Paypal him the rest of the money. I took a chance on it and glad I did. I came back a couple of weeks later with a bigger truck and trailer and hauled it home. Moral of the story is be ready to jump in your vehicle and have cash ready when something pops up.


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## mmcmdl

Old lathes in great condition are everywhere . Know what you're going after and hit the auctions . It helps if you have the cash in hand . Lathes and mills tend to find me rather me find them , guess I have a reputation as being able to move stuff quickly around the area . As Aukai knows , I'll most likely end up with some major equipment in the very near future . Not that I need it , but I can move it along quickly and get paid for my time .


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## projectnut

My experience has been almost the opposite of most members posting.  Keep in mind the availability and price of machines is a function of where you live and who you know.  Here in the rust belt good machines are still widely available and at bargain basement prices compared to the south and west coast.  Job shops and  dedicated high production facilities are still prolific.  

Back in the late 1980's and through the 90's were rough times for these businesses.  The powers that be thought we were turning from a production economy to a service economy.  As such many of the high schools and technical schools dropped their training programs.  That resulted in a ton of middle to high end machinery coming on the market.  For over 15 years the market was flooded and machines were selling for pennies on the dollar.  

As time went on local shops were having an extremely hard time finding qualified employees to replace the retiring baby boomers.  The light went on for many of the school districts and technical colleges.  In most municipalities they started to partner and kids interested in the trade could take classes at the tech school.  It freed up space and resources at the high schools and bolstered the enrollment at the tech schools.

Now we have a generation of CNC trained machinists heading to shops primarily equipped with manual machines.  Again the light goes on for the job shops and production facilities.  They start upgrading to more modern machines once again putting the now obsolete manual machines on the market.  There are literally hundreds if not thousands of good quality mills and lathes on the market for affordable prices.

Having been in the business for over 35 years creates valuable contacts.  In the last 5 years I've turned down at least as many machines as I currently have in the shop.  I've passed on Tree, Bridge[port, Web, and Cincinnati brand mills, Clausing, South Bend, Leblonde, and Bardon's & Oliver lathes.  I've also passed on other types of machines like surface grinders, bandsaws, shears, and tool grinders. 

 A friend that owns a small fabricating shop just picked up a nicely equipped 13" Clausing in excellent condition and a nicely equipped South Bend Heavy 10  for peanuts.  I was surprised he bought them because he just let loose of a 16" Leblonde, a Tree 2URV, and a 13" Bardon's & Oliver turret lathe due to lack of space.  His response was that he bought them rather than see the other shop scrap them out.  Even if he never uses them I'm sure he'll find them a good home.


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## MtnBiker

cathead said:


> Looking at the new machines similar in size to what I have I see the new stuff is pretty light weight in comparison.  My old
> Monarch weighs at least 6000 pounds and a new lathe in 1640 category is about a third of that.  I would gain the ability
> to machine a more accurate cylindrical surface possibly and do metric threading but would lose rigidity for sure.  Even a worn
> machine can do good work if one knows it's limitations.  The Monarch has served me well and has seen a lot of improvements
> so it gets to sit where it is for years to come.  If someone stole my Monarch(not likely) I would find another one to replace it.


To be fair, the "premium" Taiwan 1640/1660's are over 3,000lbs but point taken on weight. The "old iron" is now a new Haas CNC with weight to match.


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## MtnBiker

projectnut said:


> Here in the rust belt good machines are still widely available and at bargain basement prices compared to the south and west coast.  Job shops and  dedicated high production facilities are still prolific.


Now you're just messing with us "machinery desert" people.


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## MrWhoopee

Gee guys, thanks for all the kind words.

There's no secret to what I do. I use Searchtempest.com (no affiliation) and search the "Tools" category with no keywords (to find that mislabled gem) in a 250 mile radius. I chose 250 miles because that's about 4 hours one-way, making it doable in one FULL day. In the OP's case, I would extend the search to 400 miles to include LA and plan on getting a motel. 





						SearchTempest Results - All of Facebook Marketplace, craigslist, eBay & more in one search.
					

SearchTempest Results - Search all of Facebook Marketplace, craigslist, eBay, Oodle and Amazon all at once with the SearchTempest classifieds search engine (no affiliation with Facebook Marketplace or craigslist).




					www.searchtempest.com
				




In my case I drove 175 miles to Sacramento, rented a lift-gate truck (none available in my area), drove another 60 miles further to pick up the lathe and mill, then home. Unloaded the next day, then drove the lift-gate back to Sacramento in time to keep it to a 2-day rental. IIRC it cost about $500 including fuel.

Or, you could just take out a 2nd and have a new one delivered, but where's the fun in that?

I'm shocked and saddened to hear about that MS850, they are at the top of my wish list. I suppose, given sufficient abuse and neglect, any machine can be destroyed.


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## mmcmdl

I agree with the MrWhoopie . There is nothing better than a road trip , especially when a machine follows you home .


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## MtnBiker

MrWhoopee said:


> I'm shocked and saddened to hear about that MS850, they are at the top of my wish list. I suppose, given sufficient abuse and neglect, any machine can be destroyed.


That 850 was done making money. Needed the Ca Lem rebuild - see his YouTube here.


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## Shootymacshootface

You just need to monitor Craigslist closely, and be ready to move on a gem, ASAP.


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## DavidR8

I live in a semi-arrid machinery desert. I had the best luck by placing ads in the locals online classifieds. Got my mill and lathe that way.


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## Eremius

projectnut said:


> My experience has been almost the opposite of most members posting.  Keep in mind the availability and price of machines is a function of where you live and who you know.  Here in the rust belt good machines are still widely available and at bargain basement prices compared to the south and west coast.  Job shops and  dedicated high production facilities are still prolific.


My experiences are similar.  I live within two hours of most of the metro Detroit area.

A couple of years ago I picked up a Hendey 12x54 for a decent price after a short search of a couple of weeks.

For my mill I actually had to drive further to get a trailer to haul it home (30 miles) than the distance the machinery was (3 miles).


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## Cadillac

I agree with projectnut there is a plethora of old iron here in Chicago. Just did a auction Monday saw a beautiful victor lathe maybe a 16x60 or so. Looked real heavy had the taper attachment nice adjustrue chuck and aloris toolpost with the whole flat part of the spindle head was filled with aloris tool holders. Went for 1800 plus 18%. Most equipment doesn’t even sell if it’s to much for the hobbiest weight and price. New businesses are not gonna take a chance on used equipment and the hobbiest doesn’t want so they get scrapped or sit in a dealers warehouse. Just waiting on the space and I’m gonna pick me up a nice VMC soon.


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## sdelivery

I haven't seen or even heard of a unicorn anywhere yet....
Machines are just like houses,cars,boats they ALL need something no matter how new or old or rebuilt.
But the is still good used machines out there. 
Being prepared and diligent are very important and you have to jump when a deal arises....but if you really want to find a good used machine go to a machine shop
Explain that your interested in machining and want to buy a couple machines for hobby use. Ask him for his OPINION and to share his buying experiences with you. People LOVE to be ask their opinions. 
Ask him some things that you should look for and things to stay away from.
Dont be ashamed to pull out a little note pad and make notes of things he is saying.
This SHOWS him you earnest interest in what he has to say. 
Later in the conversation ask if he knows of ANY used machines available.
ANY is a key word here.
Most machine shops know each other or at least know of each other.
Most of the better machines are sold in the inner circle market, most of the stuff on the open market is of a lower quality but that doesn't mean there aren't some good ones there.
Ask him if he will give you a tour...and if it is not convenient you can come back.  This shows him you know his time is valuable.
More than likely you will get a tour and a chance to ask more questions. 
Ask for his business card and leave your contact information. Ask him to call/text or email if anything comes to mind or if he hears of anything becoming  available.
Many of the available equipment is sold before anyone realizes and before many of the employees even know its available. 
By building this relationship at several shops many things will become available.
Final thing...
Opinions are just like axxholes everyone has one, respect his and take note of it but it is probably not gospel. Some people will only buy X brand and wouldn't buy a Y brand,
there can be some valid reasons why but many times it is just a brand loyalty that may have nothing to do with the quality of the machine.


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## Nogoingback

Cadillac said:


> Most equipment doesn’t even sell if it’s to much for the hobbiest weight and price.


And there is the other part of the problem: size.  In my area, CL usually has a reasonable number of larger machines (say, 14" and up)
for sale but very few smaller than that and a lot of them are "barn finds" or worn out junk.  
So finding a machine suitable for the average hobbyist is tough, and members of this forum notwithstanding, most hobbyists don't 
have the space or the need for the big ol' American Iron.  I hope you guys in the upper Midwest appreciate what you've got.


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## sdelivery

About 4 months ago I picked up a 9 inch Southbend lathe with a like new 42 inch bed.
It was so covered in grime I didn't realize until after I cleaned it.


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## mmcmdl

A buddy of mine has a very nice Clausing 13" with the reeves drive ripped out of it . I keep looking at it thinking a vfd would fix all of that . I have to wait on it as I may get the opurrtunity ( don't know why I can't spell this word ) on some other equipment in the near future . I don't have room for what I have now , it'll be interesting for sure .


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## westerner

Janderso said:


> What did you get for the two year wait?
> Pics please


Here ya go, janderso.
Lathe is an 'as new' g4003 clone from 2003. DRO, collet chuck and closer included. 3 jaw,  4 jaw, base and OEM tools as well. $2800. 

Mill is an MVN from the 70's. Came out of a high school metals shop. Some kid tracks, but very little actual wear.
The auction winner still had it on his trailer, and he delivered it to me!
Zero tooling. $1300

They both are more accurate than I am, or likely to ever be! Best possible use of dwindling disposable income I could have dreamed of!


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## Janderso

I think equipment originating from High Schools or colleges are a good choice.
My lathe came from a community college, it has kid marks but is in excellent condition.
I remember my High School metal shop teacher took very good care of the SB13X40 back in the early 70's.


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## AndySomogyi

I think they are.

I’ve been searching for a solid but compact lathe, about 11-12” for years.

The good ones sell within hours of posting, and the clapped out overpriced trash sits around and gets re-posted for years.

I’ve gotten ready to buy a number of them, even went and rented a pickup, and told the ******* I’m coming and he sold it before I could get there.


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## Chipper5783

mmcmdl said:


> Old lathes in great condition are everywhere . Know what you're going after and hit the auctions . It helps if you have the cash in hand . Lathes and mills tend to find me rather me find them , guess I have a reputation as being able to move stuff quickly around the area . As Aukai knows , I'll most likely end up with some major equipment in the very near future . Not that I need it , but I can move it along quickly and get paid for my time .


mmcmdl is right.  Lots of good used lathes available.  Not very many good used machines available for $0.01/pound.  If you want good condition, top name brand, heavy duty, doesn't weigh very much, is local to you area, is hooked up for test, is ready to load, is easy to power, it has plenty of tooling, the seller is willing to wait on you convenience and you want it for $50 - yeah, those are pretty hard to find.


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## .LMS.

AndySomogyi said:


> I’ve gotten ready to buy a number of them, even went and rented a pickup, and told the ******* I’m coming and he sold it before I could get there.



Well, unless you gave him a deposit, I can't blame him if someone was there with the cash.   Not trying to minimize your frustration because the exact same thing happened to me.   I was annoyed at first (hey man - why didn't you at least call me and tell me not to drive the 45 mins to your shop, you had my number...), but then accepted the fact that cash is king.


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## AndySomogyi

.LMS. said:


> Well, unless you gave him a deposit, I can't blame him if someone was there with the cash.   Not trying to minimize your frustration because the exact same thing happened to me.   I was annoyed at first (hey man - why didn't you at least call me and tell me not to drive the 45 mins to your shop, you had my number...), but then accepted the fact that cash is king.


Yeah, I pay pal him a deposit, and took me two months to get it back. I really should have sued him because it cost me $100 to rent a pickup and return it, plus all the time I lost.


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## Janderso

AndySomogyi said:


> Yeah, I pay pal him a deposit, and took me two months to get it back. I really should have sued him because it cost me $100 to rent a pickup and return it, plus all the time I lost.


I don't know, I understand there are flakes in the world but, if a guy wanted to buy my lathe and sent a deposit, I would give him a chance to complete the deal.
Maybe I'm just old fashioned.


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## .LMS.

AndySomogyi said:


> Yeah, I pay pal him a deposit, and took me two months to get it back. I really should have sued him because it cost me $100 to rent a pickup and return it, plus all the time I lost.


Woah - then he boned you and is a jerk.   Legit for you to be angry for sure.


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## MtnBiker

PM is replacing the 1440 GS with a "High Precision" (not an Ultra Precision Taiwan made) lathe. And offering a factory VFD/Vector drive variable speed option as well. Decided to pull the trigger. Need decent work envelope for the shop. Don't have time or patience for a rehab or for hit or miss shopping. Won't be my last lathe - will be a good tool to learn on and evaluate either larger manual or CNC lathe later.


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## rabler

Every time this title comes up, I think about "_Good, Fast, Cheap, pick two_".  Something like that applies to buying machinery also, just not sure exactly how it would be worded.


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## markba633csi

It's a lot harder to find decent used ones.  Too many "flippers" on Ebay who buy them only to part them out and make a profit- great for the person who needs a part, not so good if you want a whole machine. And the machines themselves are often so old now that much of the precision is gone
-Mark


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## MtnBiker

rabler said:


> Every time this title comes up, I think about "_Good, Fast, Cheap, pick two_".  Something like that applies to buying machinery also, just not sure exactly how it would be worded.


Fair point. Kind of depends on your definition of cheap. Also depends on logistics. We had a lightly used, 3 year old 26x100-ish Taiwan-made industrial lathe come up on CL here Phoenix. 20 hp, about 6,000 lbs. MSRP $26K plus tooling. Selling for $12k because you realistically aren't going to place that in a home shop and industry has moved wholesale into CNC. At $12K the ROI probably makes sense. I consider that pretty much giving it away. I'd pay that much for a pristine and well tooled, 5 hp 16x40 in the same condition cuz it would be feasible in my shop. It's that sweet spot that's the unicorn I think.


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## kb58

To the OP, define "good." In the context of this thread, it seems to mean "ready to use without any repairs." In that context, I agree that there aren't very many used machines in ready-to-use condition. That said...

The context for getting a lathe/mill/whatever is at LEAST as important as the machine's condition, as is the buyer's intended use and time frame. Many of us are retired, with no urgent need to be instantly productive. Many of us like puttering around in the garage, and it doesn't matter what we're doing. In this case, buying a used machine that needs cleaning or repair is perfectly fine and is something that we look forward to. If you're in business and need a machine for the production line, it's a completely different answer. It's all about what you want/need as for what's acceptable.

For _me_, buying a 30-yr old Takisawa 14x30" lathe that was both dirty and in need of a new cross-feed screw and bushing was fine because I wasn't in a hurry. With some work, I ended up with something that cost $16,000 when new, and count myself lucky to have found it so close to home.


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## Dabbler

I'm in the "buy what you can use right away, and start setting aside cash for the unicorn" camp.  Here's my story:

Back in '82, (gosh this sounds like a western queue the spaghetti western music)  I decided I wanted back into machining.  I got advice from a toolmaker friend and researched what I could (no internet back then).  I bought a Taiwanese 12X37 and used it and learned on it for 35 years...  But I dislike threaded spindles, and it was a little light for doing parting and turning large stock.  (I've done work bigger than 5" in diameter on it).

I lusted after my friend's LeBlond 15X60 starting about that time, but he told me I'd never be able to buy it from him.  So 4 years ago I bought a nice-but-abused, 5 year old 14X40 with a D1-4 camlock, taper attachment.  A a particularly popular lathe in our town (1M people).  After dismantling it and finding dozens of things to fix (My 12X37 was still in perfect condition) I began repairing the 14X40.  After sinking 200 hours and another 500 bucks in parts, and it still not working...

My friend found out that his 15X60 Leblond, still in showroom condition with less than 100 hours on it was worthless because it was in his basement.  Because I have heavy moving experience, and because the mover he called in for a quote said 10,000$ to move it up the stairs, he sold it to me for a song, providing I moved it out of his basement.

if you are curious the whole move story can be found at
    Forums\THE PROJECTS AREA\MODERATOR PROJECTS\DABBLER\Moving big equipment out of a basement...

So I have 2 not-yet-working lathes and still making things on the 12X37, 1 year and 4 months after the move.  Very Soon Now  I'll have the Leblond working and I can sell the other lathes - the 12X37 is presold already.

Sometimes it takes patience and a little luck to get that unicorn...


----------



## FOMOGO

Not so much Unicorn, as Princess Sparkle Pony. KB above put it pretty well, if it weren't broke, I wouldn't have anything to fix. You just have to watch the ratio of broke to fixed. Mike


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## hman

Moving big equipment out of a basement...
					

Last year I bought most of the machines from a guy's basement machine shop.  I also agreed to clear his basement of all machines, by taking them up the stairs. I thought I'd post a few highlights of that move, and answer questions about moving heavy equipment...  These are the machines I moved...




					www.hobby-machinist.com


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## mksj

I guess it all depends on how long you want to wait, and what is an acceptable condition. If you are using it to generate income, then time is money and if something breaks and you can't get replacement parts you are toast. If you have a big old machine, they are often hard to sell, individuals are typically not looking for a 6000 lb machine, and businesses are looking at newer and often CNC type machines. The era of good used iron is drying up, mostly because industry for the most part no longer uses regular mills and lathes. Machine shops that are closing or selling off machines have often had a hard life an no longer meet specs. When I looked at knee mills in the Tucson area about 8 years ago, they were pretty beaten up and cost difference with a new machine just didn't make sense to go used. Also parts were an issue and very costly. I was more interested in using my machines.

As far as lathe, my recommendation is going with a 1640TL and do a basic VFD install. You will get much better longevity and the resale value if you decide to go CNC, although I still think there is a role for manual. I have the ERL-1340, have also used the 1640 model and they are killer lathes, very good quality and solid.


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## erikmannie

mksj said:


> I guess it all depends on how long you want to wait, and what is an acceptable condition. If you are using it to generate income, then time is money and if something breaks and you can't get replacement parts you are toast. If you have a big old machine, they are often hard to sell, individuals are typically not looking for a 6000 lb machine, and businesses are looking at newer and often CNC type machines. The era of good used iron is drying up, mostly because industry for the most part no longer uses regular mills and lathes. Machine shops that are closing or selling off machines have often had a hard life an no longer meet specs. When I looked at knee mills in the Tucson area about 8 years ago, they were pretty beaten up and cost difference with a new machine just didn't make sense to go used. Also parts were an issue and very costly. I was more interested in using my machines.
> 
> As far as lathe, my recommendation is going with a 1640TL and do a basic VFD install. You will get much better longevity and the resale value if you decide to go CNC, although I still think there is a role for manual. I have the ERL-1340, have also used the 1640 model and they are killer lathes, very good quality and solid.



+1 on the PM-1640TL. My 1660TL is the best purchase of anything in my entire life, hands down.


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## Dabbler

I agree with mksj. 

Using the 40 odd year old LeBlond lathe is a lot like driving a vintage car.  I'll baby it because I'd have to make any replacement parts.  Even so, it is the most accurate lathe I've seen and several guys in my group have bought high end Japanese toolmaking lathes.  They have similar accuracy, but not the rigidity.  

For a guy that wants to just get the job done and can afford brand new the 1640 is the perfect choice.


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## Mgdoug3

I've been lucky and found two good lathes worth the money.  This thread reminds me about meeting a guy the other day who is fixing a crankshaft for me.  He's been looking for another lathe for polishing cranks and found one on Craigslist. Told the seller what time he would be there and left.  When he got there, he watched the lathe leaving on another trailer. 

The seller didn't realize he was loading the wrong buyer.  The person who actually bought it ghosted the seller and never made any contact. He just happened to show up a little earlier.  The seller felt terrible and offered to pay for his fuel.  The seller assumed the wrong seller was the guy he was talking to because the buyer showed up around the said time and had a trailer.  Some people just have terrible luck.


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## matthewsx

I'm about to have a lathe that would be good for polishing cranks. The gap broke and I don't know that it'll ever come back to me in one piece or three.

Yes, Unicorns are way more common.

John


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## Braeden P

I can’t afford new lathes but that why I want to learn scraping so that I can make unicorns and sell them


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## MtnBiker

I just spent some time with a 21x40 owned by a machinist acquaintance of mine. He picked it up used a few years back. Says it's the best manual lathe he's ever operated. I'd have to agree - like buttah. So...I've seen a unicorn and they are real (though maybe bigger than I expected).


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## Nogoingback

Right now, in my area  the machine shops seem to be
dumping the big manual machines on CL, while hobby sized machines ( say 12 inches or under) are
pretty rare and it can take a long time to find anything worthwhile.  I noticed that the guys that council
patience on buying older machines are almost always folks that already have a lathe or two in their
shops already.  It's tough for the new folks and first time buyers.


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## MtnBiker

Nogoingback said:


> Right now, in my area  the machine shops seem to be
> dumping the big manual machines on CL, while hobby sized machines ( say 12 inches or under) are
> pretty rare and it can take a long time to find anything worthwhile.  I noticed that the guys that council
> patience on buying older machines are almost always folks that already have a lathe or two in their
> shops already.  It's tough for the new folks and first time buyers.


Yep. That's my impression as well. Sometimes you just need to learn how to run a lathe. For me, $20K all up for a new, top quality machine is not in the cards right now (lots of other stuff to buy). Shopping for something used, excellent and bigger seems a whole lot more fun if you already have something in the shop.


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## Dabbler

@Mgdoug3 I had a similar experience with a milling machine...  Before I had one I found out by word of mouth about a 1940s swiss made milling machine, 9X34 similar to the Mako VF1, fully tooled, collets, rotary table... I just had to wait for him to finally stop using it.  He refused to let me come down until he was ready...  Every 3 or 4 months - for the next 2 years - I'd phone, and it would be "soon..."...  The last time I called he sounded confused as he sold it to me a week before.  The guy claimed to be me, and even used my name.  I think he told his friends that it was promised to me and let leak out my name.  Since he never saw me, the guy who showed up used my name and bought it.  For 2000 bucks.  Sigh.

One month later I bought my first mill.


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## .LMS.

Dabbler said:


> the guy who showed up used my name and bought it.


Holy cow - who would stoop so low.  Some serious bad karma with him now though.


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## Dabbler

To show that unicorns do exist, I just kept shaking my head - this guy has platinum horseshoes in an unmentionable place!


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## projectnut

Nogoingback said:


> Right now, in my area  the machine shops seem to be
> dumping the big manual machines on CL, while hobby sized machines ( say 12 inches or under) are
> pretty rare and it can take a long time to find anything worthwhile. * I noticed that the guys that council
> patience on buying older machines are almost always folks that already have a lathe or two in their
> shops already.*  It's tough for the new folks and first time buyers.



It might also be the fact that the people suggesting patience have been down that road.  When I started looking for a mill I was mainly interested in a fairly new Tree brand machine model 2UVR, .  I spent well over 2 years searching through various online and printed adds.  I found over a dozen machines, but they were either worn out, had little or no tooling, or were outrageously expensive.

I conferred with several machinists at work and they suggested I broaden my search to include Logan Excello, Wells Index, Acer, and Bridgeport among others.  I took their advice and continued the search.  It took another year to find the Bridgeport I currently have.  Mine came from a local high school that had dropped their "Industrial Arts" training program.  The machine was bought new by the school in 1974 and retired in 1990 in favor of a CNC machine.  It sat in storage another 10 years.  When the school dropped their training program both were put on the market.

When I was in the market for a larger lathe I consulted several machinists I knew from work and members of a professional board.  I once again began the search and it took nearly a year before I found a Sheldon MW-56-P in the Chicago area that had recently been rebuilt.  I contacted the owner and visited him.  I asked 2 of the machinists from the shop to go along and help assess the machine.  After assessing this machine and nearly a dozen others I once again contacted the owner.  We agreed on a price and made arrangements to pick up the machine.  The process from beginning the search to bringing the machine home took over a year.

Each machine I have purchased has repeated the same process.  It usually takes between 6 months and 2 years to find the right machine and bring it home.  The only machine that took less time was the Racine power hacksaw.  I happened to find the right machine at the right price on the first time out.


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## mksj

I think one needs to put this all in perspective as to time, ability, knowledge and cost. In almost every scenario individuals have been looking for months, or years for their unicorn, so for the most part one would assume one has operating machines and is looking for an upgrade or a specific machine. It assumes you can wait, drop everything at the a moments notice and drive hundreds of miles, or wait for someone to become senile and sell their machine. There is also a knowledge curve to knowing what to look for and the ability to do repairs, sometimes requiring other machines and an extensive knowledge/ability/cost to do so. When I was working my average work week was 60+ hours and on-call on the weekend, so finding a unicorn was more fairy dust. Yes, I have more time now that I am retired, but I only got into metal machining about 12 years ago and everything had to fit into a 1 car garage. Heck, if I had big old American iron, it would have taken up the whole garage. 

I briefly looked at the used market when I was in Tucson when I wanted to upgrade my mill, and fortunately had a seasoned machinist to guide me through the process. At the end of the day, and looking for several months, I was disappointed a the cost of used equipment, the condition and trying to find/cost of parts to repair them. I ended up buying new, and without his help I couldn't have gotten it delivered. When you start looking at machinery in the 2+ ton range, you need both the shop space and the ability to get it there. Getting a rigger to do it on short notice, and depending on the distance can cost as much or more than the machine you are buying. My current lathe a around 2400 lbs and was offered a bigger one (3400lbs) at the same price but I couldn't manage the additional weight to get it delivered. The initial costs to get the lathe from the local freight terminal and offloaded to my home was going to be between 1.5-2K. I ended up working out a deal with the local equipment rental yard to have it delivered to them, they put it on the bed of a truck with a forklift and brought to my house for $250. It was fortunate that it worked out, but just shows that there are a lot of other obstacles and costs involved unless you have the means to get it home.

I did not, and still would not want to be searching years for a particular machine unless it was more lust then practicality of the situation. I have more than made up the cost difference by using the machine and occasionally making/selling parts.  The machine does not make the machinist, but there is an enjoyment for the individual in using a particular machine. As previously noted, there are more used market options for bigger and heavier machinery but this typically falls out of the realm of hobby machinist, if one looks hard and long enough you will find what you want. The big clock on the wall is ticking down, and I would rather be using my machines then dreaming about them. Don't get me wrong, I was thought about buying my current knee mill for years, and couldn't justify the cost at the time. I looked at many other mills and was disappointing, and finally got a great deal on the one I wanted new. So it is all timing and opportunity. The one thing I have learned, is buy the best you can at the price point you can afford (buy once, cry once). Just about every time I purchased something cheaper than I wanted, I ended up being disappointed and ended up getting what I should have in the first place (and costing me more buying cheap). Part of this is a learning curve, knowing what you need and working within your budget.


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## Nogoingback

I went through that process myself when I bought my Logan and if I remember right it took me about 6 months to find it.
But, it was no creampuff and I had to dump a bunch of money and time into it to get it up to speed.  And  I had a lathe
already.

I think the point I was trying to make is that for new people who want to get started in the hobby, 6 months to 2 years is
an awful  long time to wait, and of course that assumes they know enough to evaluate what they find, which is frequently not 
the case.  And while there are still good buys out there, I think they're getting harder to find:  these machines just aren't
getting any younger and a lot of hobby sized machines are badly neglected.  And as we all know, some areas just have
more to choose from.  Where I live, there was very little manufacturing, and hobby sized lathes are thin on the ground.


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## Dabbler

Nogoingback said:


> 6 months to 2 years is an awful long time to wait



I agree - that's why "buy what you can use and learn on" then  "buy your dream machine"  that way if it never comes or takes 30 years you still have something to use and make things on.  My first lathe wasn't perfect, but at 12X37 it did all I needed it to by a little cunning and luck.


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## AndySomogyi

Drove 2 hours to take a look at another used lathe, 11” Colchester. Owner said “oh yeah, bed is perfect, no wear”

Checked it and 20 thousands dip in the bed, tailstock spindle wobbles.

Agh!!!! WTF can’t sellers be honest and not waste my time. 

So I’m now wasted 5 hours, and no closer to a lathe.

I’ve HAD IT, I’m just going Precision Matthews, I’m SICK OF THIS SEARCHING FOR USED CRAP! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## .LMS.

AndySomogyi said:


> I’m just going Precision Matthews, I’m SICK OF THIS SEARCHING FOR USED CRAP!



I don't think you'll regret your decision - I don't regret making that same decision.   They are not perfect and need some tweaking and adjusting and head scratching and tinkering and research here on how others have tuned them, but when you consider the price to value ratio, they are a good choice.   It will be a weight off your shoulders and a fun journey.


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## Braeden P

Not all unicorns look good my 1941 hardinge has about 1 tenth runout 10 thou of backlash it is in great mechanical shape except the one side of the cross slide but the paint is peeling all 3 layers and so is the filler it works but will be brought back to quality with new paint and scraped ways.


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## mmcmdl

Lathes are everywhere . Personally I would never purchase a new lathe when there are tons available on the market . You may need to travel and have cash in your pocket . I've sold never used lathes in the past for a fraction of what they cost new . The ShopFox I sold was never used . Sold it cheap because I got it cheap . You have to be an informed buyer sometimes and realize the equipments' potential . If you're looking for brand new , buy it and pay the price . If looking for good quality used and ready to work lathes , you have to do some due deligence ( sp ) . Good equipment goes very fast because alot of people are searching to purchase it . Be ready to pounce when it shows up for sale . 

Just got the call from the guy looking at my SG , maybe it will leave the premises .


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## projectnut

If you're looking for the "perfect" used lathe you might as well end the search.  While many brands and models were close to perfect when they were new they won't be nearly as good after 30 to 50 or more years of use.  If they were still as good as when they were built the prices would be astronomical.  Every once in a while someone claims to have found a unicorn that's still NIB (New In the Box) and has never seen the light of day.  When they do supposedly make this incredible find they the asking price is multiples of any machines that are currently being manufactured. 

AS for owners opinions of their machines I see it as similar to individuals attempting to sell their own used cars.  Some people prefer to keep a vehicle no more than 2 to 3 years.  They don't want to deal with the expense and inconvenience of potential of repairs years down the road.  They ask high prices thinking it still has years of service left, and would make a good vehicle for someone not willing to pay the price for a brand new vehicle

People wit older machines (or cars) seem to think the machine (or car) has served them well and still has some value above the scrap price.  Again very few are knowledgeable as to the accumulated wear.  All they know and care about is that it could, and still can perform the tasks it was intended to do.  This would hold especially true to those using the machines for hobby purposes.

You have to compare the asking prices of similar new and used machines.  In almost every case I think you'll find the used machine is a fraction of the price of a new one.  Built into the lower price is some expectation that the machine isn't a "unicorn".  There will be at least some normal wear, and possibly some damage if it was used in a production situation or by an inexperienced hobbyist for extended periods of time.

Wear doesn't necessarily mean the machine is non functional, or can't still make quality parts.  I have a 1916 Seneca Falls Star lathe that has nearly .015" wear on the ways near the spindle.  It was used for over 40 years to make small prototype parts for a vending machine company.  It can still make quality parts today, but the operator needs to have the knowledge as to where the wear is and how to compensate for it.


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## ericc

Boy, it's hard to say.  Lathes are kind of expensive on Craigslist these days, and the hobby sized ones are in short supply.  An Atlas 12" just popped up for $1000.  It was missing drive components and probably doesn't run.  Otherwise it would be a lot more.  If one considers this high, a Chinese import lathe, the Shop Fox 12" retails for $4812.  Our makerspace has one of these and it is kind of flaky.  It is almost impossible to hit a bore since the feeds are so loose.  If you tighten the gib screws a tiny bit, the slides jam. So, when you cut, you have to put a hand on the knobs to keep them from turning.  The threading transfer gear is cocked and jammed on the shaft, so it won't thread in metric.  It is a fairly new lathe, but due to quality issues, punches well below its weight.  Which one is the better deal?  Hard to say.  I'd have a hard time paying $1000 for a lathe that doesn't run and is missing parts, or even is taken apart in boxes.  I think we have been spoiled by pre "stay-at-home" prices.  Just a few years ago, they were a lot more reasonable on Craigslist.  You could get a worn but running South Bend for about the same.  I would definitely prefer that to the new import.


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## MtnBiker

Status update...

After cancelling my order for a new Mainland China lathe I was back to Craigslist. Long story short - a 1 owner, 17x40 Taiwan lathe came up. About an hour north of Phoenix up in the hills. Informal estate sale. Same machine, plus a few decades, as a new Eisen Machinery 1640G (both have a 16.9" swing). Went up Saturday to check it out and the machine has age appropriate grime but in great shape. Ways are pristine. All the controls are smooth. The owner was a master machinist by trade and used this mostly for model making in his home shop so no industrial use on this one. His best friend, also a machinist, helped this guy uncrate the lathe when new and is selling it for the family. The tooling, and anything else not nailed to the floor, was sold by the kids already. Got an 8" 3-jaw and a QCTP. Kind of a bummer on tooling (lost out on a Buck chuck and a bunch of other good stuff) but I managed to snag a nice, 4,000 lb industrial lathe for $3,500. Picking up this weekend.

Didn't get pics while there but it looks just like this if you rubbed a little grease on and a few spots of paint off.


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## Janderso

$3500 for that lathe is a fair price in my book. If you had to pay $5,000 you would need to see lots of tooling thrown in.
D1-6 is a great platform. IMHO


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## Janderso

ericc said:


> Boy, it's hard to say. Lathes are kind of expensive on Craigslist these days


Yes, what the heck is going on?
two years ago there were many deals to be had compared to todays prices. Ebay reflects the same trend.


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## MtnBiker

Janderso said:


> $3500 for that lathe is a fair price in my book. If you had to pay $5,000 you would need to see lots of tooling thrown in.
> D1-6 is a great platform. IMHO


Agree. It has a lot of life left in it. And investments in D1-6 make sense to me. Can run a 6" chuck with some finessing all the way to 16". Super flexible. Just a good size for the kind of work I anticipate needing a manual lathe to do. I'd likely get another D1-6 machine if it came to that.

Just comparing this to the clapped out Mori that started this thread. $7K asking price for a machine that was well past it's useful life. The cost/value prop is galactically different.


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## BGHansen

Here are some Craig's List listings in your general area (give or take a few hundred miles).  I use the search engine www.searchtempest.com.  Let's you type in the keywords for the search, price range, driving distance, etc.  Shows hits for CL and eBay.

Bruce

Not familiar with the lathe make (Tech-Turn).  Looks to be a 12x36 or 13x40 gear head with a Norton style QCGB.  Looks like 3/4/6 jaw chucks for $3000








						Tech Turn Table Lathe Bed for metal & wood - tools - by owner - sale
					

Lathe turning machine for metal and wood working.



					tucson.craigslist.org
				




Grizzly 4003 12 x 36 for $3500 in Phoenix








						36" Metal Lathe Grizzly G4003 - tools - by owner - sale
					

Good condition Grizzly Metal Lathe Perfect for Gunsmithing and other metal projects Works perfectly 6" 3-Jaw chuck w/2 sets of jaws 8" 4-Jaw chuck w/reversible jaws 10" Faceplate Steady rest Follow...



					phoenix.craigslist.org
				




Logan/Powermatic 11 x 24 in Phoenix for $2000








						Logan Powermatic Lathe Model 1100003 - tools - by owner - sale
					

Logan Powermatic Model 1100003 Metal Lathe Swing over bed: 11" Center distance: 24" Speed adjustable to 1000 RPM (2) 3-jaw chucks (1) Face plate (1) 4-jaw independent chuck Lathe and drive manuals...



					phoenix.craigslist.org


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## DAM 79

Patience is a virtue there are some good deals out there but I have found that you have to wait it out !!!! And like said before these older machine are not NEW here on the east coast there seem to be more and more machinery popping up on CL and I have found you just have to be ready and depending on what your looking for they are out there (unicorns) I have missed one by two hours a Monarch series 60 13x54 that looked like it was frozen in time and I will kick myself for not calling the guy sooner because I went and bough just about everything else he had for sale literally 
I am a hobby guy that just got started a few years ago and so far I have gone thru buying and selling a few lathes and timing is everything and it seems everyone wants a used machine that is in perfect shape well they all have some wear or some issue no matter how small because it’s used and unless your making parts for the space shop in your shop I say keep a eye out for some old American iron if you have the room because there are some really good deals on some machines that will be making parts long after we’re all gone !!! It’s all about networking and letting people know your in the market because once you start doing that there are good people out there that want to see there machines go to a good home !!! I’m fairly new to all this machining and I have fell in love with it and the people that do it every day and am glade to be a part of this group as well for all the knowledge that is here from everyone. 
just my take on things


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## MtnBiker

BGHansen said:


> Here are some Craig's List listings in your general area (give or take a few hundred miles).  I use the search engine www.searchtempest.com.  Let's you type in the keywords for the search, price range, driving distance, etc.  Shows hits for CL and eBay.


Go back a page. I found one!! Pretty stoked.


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## Winegrower

There are many choices available here in middle California.   For those complaining they are expensive, have you priced unicorns lately?

Before and during and after the time I got the Takisawa TSL-800, I had a choice of a Victor 1640, a Namseon 1640, a LaBlonde Regal, a Mori Seiki 850...I mean, there were herds of unicorns around.  

My point is, no fair confusing availability with availability at a bargain price.


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## hman

MtnBiker said:


> Go back a page. I found one!! Pretty stoked.


Good news ... in more ways than one!  I've been informally lathe hunting for a friend in the Phoenix area ... and if you were still looking, I'd have held off sending @BGHansen's info to him.  But now that you have a lathe, I've passed the links on.  It's all good!


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## Ultradog MN

I looked for 2 years.
Had the search for "lathe" on CL bookmarked on my phone. One click. I checked it 3 or 4  times a day.
I used searchtempest. Checked half a dozen auction houses including govdeals, hibid, proxibid, bidspotter, publicsurplus.com and others.
I bid on at least 7 or 8 lathes but never got one.
I did NOT want a China lathe. Was willing to sacrifice a bit of accuracy for a good ol piece of American iron.
Would have traveled up to 600 mi for the right machine
Two months ago I finally got one at a big plant auction. 90 miles from home. It was in the tool room for the last 40 years and not used in production.
It's nice. Worn but Not worn out.
Got 3 chucks, collets, face and drive plates, taper attachment + other stuff but no steady rest.
Weighs most of 2 tons.
A Monarch CK12. It's beautiful!
Don't despair. There's a lathe for you out there.
Photos of it are at the plant where it was.


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## MtnBiker

Ultradog MN said:


> A Monarch CK12. It's beautiful!


Beautiful lathe!


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## hman

Truly a beaut of a brute!  Congratulations.


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## Dabbler

very nice find!


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## MtnBiker

Picked up the 17x40 on Monday.

This was an informal estate sale and the next door neighbor, Dave, (also a hobby machinist) was selling this machine for the family. Dave brought two friends, two forklifts and had the lathe staged for loading onto my trailer.








Dave fabbed up some supports for the bed to keep the lathe balanced for a safe load. No rigging cost for the win!

Need to mention - my single axle business trailer would have been maxed out (maybe a little over) at about 4,000 lbs. A machinist friend of mine let me borrow his HD two axle. He warned me that this trailer was noisy/clunky with a hydraulic brake (tongue moves back and forth like a U-Haul). So I was expecting some noise going down the road. Sure enough - not disappointed with the clunks.

When I got home I wasn't expecting this:





Unscheduled disassembly of the hub bearings and a lonely wheel (and a few leaf spring members) located somewhere in the high country off I-17. I had no idea this happened. The trailer was stiff enough to keep the springs off the ground...at least the parts that were left. The hardware connecting the axle to the springs was also gone. Yep, the axle was held on by only one side. I will buy some lottery tickets next. When I returned the trailer my machinist friend casually mentioned that "maybe this needed some maintenance". The gift of understatement!




Got the lathe off the trailer and staged for move into garage shop.




Temporary quarters while I clean and inspect. The more grime that comes off, the more I like. Typical machinist, I don't think he ever cleaned the outside - and oil based coolant does leave a mess. But the bits that matter look pretty good.




Ways look good. A lot less wear than a typical late 80's machine I reckon (and I'm sure Arizona's dry climate helps too). The owner was a hobby model maker and cut a lot of brass from the looks of the chip tray. Since I'm not machining the physics packages for our nuclear arsenal I think this should be good enough to get the job done. Note: the orange stuff in the bad is primer, not rust.






Gears for threading look almost new - can't really see any wear. Headstock gears look great as well. All teeth present and accounted for. Everything aligns dead on. 




Electrical is pretty immaculate.

Also - what was advertised as a 5 hp turned out be a 7.5 hp dual speed once I got the dust and grime off the motor name plate. 16 speeds on the spindle. The only downside is the price break between a 10hp and 15hp RPC (it's only about $100 more to go to a 20hp so that's likely where we'll land).

One more thing, in case anyone runs into one of these Shen Jey Taiwan lathes (also sold under the Millport brand) there should be some parts availability as the current Eisen 1640G is nearly a clone. For example, Sterling Machinery just sold out a small batch of OSAMA 1740G new/old stock lathes still on pallets that are even more similar to the the Eisen 1640G. Shen Jey went out of business a few years ago. A lot of parts probably will retrofit just fine.

Will say a little more when I get this thing under power.


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## kb58

This sort of thing seems to be happening a lot lately. I wonder how much is related to COVID and even that stuck ship.


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## MtnBiker

kb58 said:


> This sort of thing seems to be happening a lot lately. I wonder how much is related to COVID and even that stuck ship.


Pretty much all the hobby/home shop sized stuff is sold. My trailer dealer says things are really tight (people starting lawn service/handyman and other ventures). I think a lot of people want to get away from hourly paid and overregulated (restaurants and COVID for instance) industries.


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## mksj

Looks like a very nice find, and definitely a step up in size and capability in line with what you were considering. You could also run it off of a large VFD like the WJ200-110LF or consider a 5 Hp motor with something like the WJ200-075LF. These days it seems the larger 3 phase 5 and 7.5Hp motors are less than there 2-3 Hp counterparts that are inverter rated. The Baldor is a vector type motor, you can run them at much higher speeds if you can go with a smaller pulley. Issue I found with my lathe was the brake was integrated into motor pulley so would be a hassle to switch out since shaft size is different.  I have a vector motor for mine, but the stock one does so well off of a VFD I see no reason to change. Of note on the 2 speed motors that are Dahlander motor type (not constant Hp), I had problems tuning the VFD's to them but not the constant Hp.
BALDOR IDVSNM3665T 5HP 1750RPM 60HZ THREE PHASE https://www.ebay.com/itm/353295687286
LINCOLN 5 HP AC ELECTRIC MOTOR 184T FRAME 1760 RPM 3Ø 230/460V AAF4B5T61 https://www.ebay.com/itm/224401192429
MARATHON HP 3 PHASE SEVERE DUTY MOTOR / CATALOG # E473 https://www.ebay.com/itm/272849961686


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## MtnBiker

mksj said:


> Of note on the 2 speed motors that are Dahlander motor type (not constant Hp), I had problems tuning the VFD's to them but not the constant Hp.


Yep - this one is the not constant Hp type. And band brake is integrated onto the hub for the drive belts.


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## jwmay

Well so what do you think Mtnbiker?  Unicorn?


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## Ultradog MN

I went back and forth on a VFD vs RPC myself.
Finally made the decision when a friend got me a 7 1/2 hp motor for the idler for free. 
I am very glad I went with the RPC. I can run my ancient lathe, mill and belt sander plus any other old 3 ph piece of junk I drag home in the future.


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## MtnBiker

jwmay said:


> Well so what do you think Mtnbiker?  Unicorn?


I see what you did there.

Considering the price, maybe so. Well used. Not abused. In car terms, low mileage for the year and mostly highway. Has had all the service done on time. But it still has 200,000 miles on the odometer. A tear down and quality paint job would make things interesting. 

This is an example:




This area of the carriage is a swarf magnet (most of the swarf being yellow metal). Not a museum piece. And the one shot oiler button has been worn down. But...this guy used the one shot oiler a lot. So things still work.


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## MtnBiker

Ultradog MN said:


> I went back and forth on a VFD vs RPC myself.
> Finally made the decision when a friend got me a 7 1/2 hp motor for the idler for free.
> I am very glad I went with the RPC. I can run my ancient lathe, mill and belt sander plus any other old 3 ph piece of junk I drag home in the future.


We plan on doing a lot of commercial plasma cutting in the future. That means a 3-phase air compressor is a good idea. And so a RPC may just be the ticket for us too. Then there is that amazing deal on a 3-ph museum piece that comes up every so often. I see your point Ultradog.


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## fursphere

I searched for months for a hobby lathe at a decent price.   Folks seem to want a lot of money for heavy used stuff here in California.  So I decided on just buying a Precision Matthews lathe, as I had a good experience when I bought my PM-30MV mill.   Smallest is the 1022, so I figured I'd go one bigger and get the 1127.   After some shipping back order status changes, I ended up upgrading to a PM1236.   I'm happy.  

No more searching craigslist hoping for a good deal.  Its done.  I can start having fun instead.


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## MtnBiker

fursphere said:


> Folks seem to want a lot of money for heavy used stuff here in California.  So I decided on just buying a Precision Matthews lathe...


Seems like a pretty universal sentiment outside of the mid-West. A lot of equipment in the home shop price range is worth approximately zero in a business setting (and that's why it is being sold). Don't want to be on the buy side of that equation. If you need to make money with a tool, or just have something you want to learn on, having to use a 2 foot cheater bar to make a gear change would be awful.

If restoring machines is your jam it is a wonderful thing (I'm mesmerized by some of those serial restorations on YouTube...at episode 19 of a 10ee resto right now). But a lot of labor goes into that sort of thing. And time is money. I'm sure you'll have a great time with the 1236. Matt does a good job.


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## Janderso

fursphere said:


> I searched for months for a hobby lathe at a decent price.   Folks seem to want a lot of money for heavy used stuff here in California.  So I decided on just buying a Precision Matthews lathe, as I had a good experience when I bought my PM-30MV mill.   Smallest is the 1022, so I figured I'd go one bigger and get the 1127.   After some shipping back order status changes, I ended up upgrading to a PM1236.   I'm happy.
> 
> No more searching craigslist hoping for a good deal.  Its done.  I can start having fun instead.


Did they have the 1236 in stock?
I noticed they have very few of anything in stock.
I've been playing around with the idea of buying one of their high end 5 year warranty, made in Taiwan knee mills. They are about a third smaller than my 3,300# knee mill.
A 50" table means you have to be like a ballerina trying to tip toe with arms akimbo.
I like the idea of more room in the shop.


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## fursphere

Janderso said:


> Did they have the 1236 in stock?
> I noticed they have very few of anything in stock.
> I've been playing around with the idea of buying one of their high end 5 year warranty, made in Taiwan knee mills. They are about a third smaller than my 3,300# knee mill.
> A 50" table means you have to be like a ballerina trying to tip toe with arms akimbo.
> I like the idea of more room in the shop.



If I remember correctly, I ordered mine back in Late January / Early February, and received it at the very end of April.  The 1127 I originally ordered was supposed to come in April/May, but got pushed back to July I think, so I just asked what else they had coming in and decided to move up a size (after some careful discussions with the wife....).  The 1236 is what I originally wanted, but went smaller due to cost at the time.  Things just happened to align for me and I was able to make the jump.

I would call them or email sales and tell them what you'd like and ask about availability.  They're usually very quick to respond, and are easy to work with.  You can put a 20% deposit down too on a future shipment to secure one - so you don't have pay in full up front.


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## Ischgl99

MtnBiker said:


> We plan on doing a lot of commercial plasma cutting in the future. That means a 3-phase air compressor is a good idea. And so a RPC may just be the ticket for us too. Then there is that amazing deal on a 3-ph museum piece that comes up every so often. I see your point Ultradog.


Have you looked into a Phase Perfect unit instead of a RPC?  Since you will be using this in a commercial setting, the efficiency difference might pay off the more expensive PP rather quickly.


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## MtnBiker

Ischgl99 said:


> Have you looked into a Phase Perfect unit instead of a RPC?  Since you will be using this in a commercial setting, the efficiency difference might pay off the more expensive PP rather quickly.


The American Rotary ADX series are pretty efficient and produce well regulated 3-phase from what I understand. The Phase Perfect units seem pretty spendy untill you compare the really big ones to equivalent RPCs (the cost/size curves are interesting).


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## DAM 79

Plus one for the American Rotary Phase Converter!!!! That is what I have and it was the best thing I ever did I have the ADX -20 (My Monarch Series 60 has a 10 Hp Motor) and have had zero problems out of it !!! Previously I used VFD on my machines and they were not bad on the price if I remember correctly o couple hundred bucks off Amazon and they did work BUT once I switched to RPC I definitely noticed a difference in the performance of the machinery they just had more power and seemed like they ran much smoother!!! Now with all that being said I did not buy mine New I got it Used and I was Very Lucky the previous owner never hooked it up or used it and I pretty much Got a smoking deal($1200 bucks)  because it came with a 3-Phase panel and breakers I Was Very Lucky !!! But it was the best Move ever as far as powering my machinery!!!!!!


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## Ischgl99

MtnBiker said:


> The American Rotary ADX series are pretty efficient and produce well regulated 3-phase from what I understand. The Phase Perfect units seem pretty spendy untill you compare the really big ones to equivalent RPCs (the cost/size curves are interesting).


Looks like the ADX series is more efficient than I remember.  When I looked into an RPC a number of years ago I recall it being in the 85% range and not 98%.  I ended up going the VFD route since that gives me better control options for the machines.


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## DAM 79

Ischgl99 said:


> Looks like the ADX series is more efficient than I remember.  When I looked into an RPC a number of years ago I recall it being in the 85% range and not 98%.  I ended up going the VFD route since that gives me better control options for the machines.


Yes you definitely have more control and a host of other things you can do depending on how you see up your VFD and the programming but with the VFD but you lose some Power or at least I did with the ones I had


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## Ischgl99

DAM 79 said:


> Yes you definitely have more control and a host of other things you can do depending on how you see up your VFD and the programming but with the VFD but you lose some Power or at least I did with the ones I had


Were you running your 10hp motor on a 10hp three phase VFD with single phase input?  If so, you would not have full power, it will be approximately 40% less than the VFD rated power.  My motors are much smaller and I can get single phase input VFDs that give me full power at rated size.  I think they are available up to 3hp, but someone might be making a larger one now.


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## Ultradog MN

An RPC will have more parasitic loss than a VFD. One of those damned if you do, damned if you don't kinda things.
I checked it with an amp meter and it uses 3.69 amps with no load on it.
On the other hand, I only have about $150 in it and as we talked about earlier it does allow the use of several machines though not all of them simultaneously of course.
One thing I did with mine is I put the idler motor outside behind the garage.
I poured a concrete base and mounted it to that.
I can barely hear it running and having it out there doesn't use any indoor real estate.
Am real glad I did that.
I was going to build an enclosure for it but the bucket seems to suffice and I may just leave it that way.


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## DAM 79

So my biggest machine has a 10 Hp motor my rotary phase converter is a ADX -20 so I have a 20 Hp motor I see no loss in power at all


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## DAM 79

And I saw a noticeable difference in all my machinery because when running a VFD your losing power at some percentage every VFD is different so if you have a 1Hp three phase motor and put a VFD on it your not getting that 1Hp three phase motors full potential your losing some percentage of that I think around almost a third of that


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## DAM 79

Also on this topic one could make there own RPC pretty cheap all you need is a 3 phase motor  there are many videos on YouTube on how to wire one up and they can be had pretty cheap from the local scrap yard


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## Ischgl99

DAM 79 said:


> And I saw a noticeable difference in all my machinery because when running a VFD your losing power at some percentage every VFD is different so if you have a 1Hp three phase motor and put a VFD on it your not getting that 1Hp three phase motors full potential your losing some percentage of that I think around almost a third of that


That’s only true if the VFD is three phase only input.  If it was designed for three phase or single phase input, you will get full rated power up to the capacity of the VFD.


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## MtnBiker

DAM 79 said:


> Plus one for the American Rotary Phase Converter!!!! .... Now with all that being said I did not buy mine New I got it Used and I was Very Lucky the previous owner never hooked it up or used it and I pretty much Got a smoking deal($1200 bucks)


So...we now have a RPC unicorn sighting


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## DAM 79

MtnBiker said:


> So...we now have a RPC unicorn sighting


Yes I have been very lucky in my quest to have a little hobby shop that is for certain and it just goes to show that they are out there !!!


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## mksj

DAM 79 said:


> And I saw a noticeable difference in all my machinery because when running a VFD your losing power at some percentage every VFD is different so if you have a 1Hp three phase motor and put a VFD on it your not getting that 1Hp three phase motors full potential your losing some percentage of that I think around almost a third of that



I think you must be thinking of a static converter, VFD's do not loose a performance percentage at the motor base frequency unless improperly matched or the programmed parameters are incorrect. If anything you get better operating performance when programmed for SLV/feedback to the VFD. My recollection is that an RPC delivers ~90% of the performance of true 3 phase for motors. There are also significant costs associated with an RPC if you add a sub-panel, breakers and wiring. VFD's these days tend to be more economical for individual machines 3 Hp and under, above that point the price starts to swing toward an RPC. The choice is also one more of function and if you need the VFD's additional motor control vs. you just need 3 phase.


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## Ultradog MN

mksj said:


> The choice is also one more of function and if you need the VFD's additional motor control vs. you just need 3 phase.


Well said.
Things like variable speed and over speeding the  motor on an older lathe are nice and can be accomplished with a vfd but not an rpc.
Things like DROs and the ability to cut both metric and SAE threads are also nice.
I think it depends in your needs, wants and maybe your comfort with more modern technology. 
On the other hand, my old lathe has 16 reliable speeds and really Nice dials on my compound, cross feed and carriage.  I am very comfortable with using that old technology and don't see myself needing to upgrade it beyond its original capability. I'm an old school fool so just make it run and I will be happy.


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## MtnBiker

Buy used they said. Well, whoever thought it was a good idea having the coolant tank be integral to the casting...is a DUMMY. I just finished scraping the last inch of sludge out of my lathe. About the grossest thing I've ever had to do. Stuff hadn't been touched for who knows how long and I can't imagine that tank had ever really been cleaned. 3 entire rolls of blue, now brown shop towels, two cans of brake cleaner and two gallons of science experiment to dispose of. I wore a trash bag on my arm up to my shoulder plus gloves. Would have preferred a space suit. So so horrible!


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## Nogoingback

MtnBiker said:


> Buy used they said. Well, whoever thought it was a good idea having the coolant tank be integral to the casting...is a DUMMY. I just finished scraping the last inch of sludge out of my lathe. About the grossest thing I've ever had to do. Stuff hadn't been touched for who knows how long and I can't imagine that tank had ever really been cleaned. 3 entire rolls of blue, now brown shop towels and two gallons of science experiment to dispose of. I wore a trash bag on my arm up to my shoulder plus gloves. Would have preferred a space suit. So so horrible!
> 
> View attachment 366090
> View attachment 366091


What doesn't kill you makes you stronger...


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## MtnBiker

American Rotary ADX-20 on the way. Found out the distributor is 15 minutes away so saving a bunch on shipping. And prices are going to go up a bunch (like everything). So it made sense to pull the trigger. We have some conduit and wire to buy.


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## DAM 79

That is the same set up that I have and it was the best investment I’ve made . And I ran mine in to a 3- phase panel with breakers that go to outlet and then the machines plug in so everything is on a breaker


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## Ultradog MN

DAM 79 said:


> That is the same set up that I have and it was the best investment I’ve made . And I ran mine in to a 3- phase panel with breakers that go to outlet and then the machines plug in so everything is on a breaker


I wasn't sure how to do that.
I'm running three 3 phase machines so I came out of the RPC enclosure and ran power to 3 outlets  on the wall. All three machines already had fused disconnects on the back of them so I didn't think I needed another layer of protection. The RPC does have a a breaker in the main garage panel - of course.


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## rabler

Ultradog MN said:


> I wasn't sure how to do that.
> I'm running three 3 phase machines so I came out of the RPC enclosure and ran power to 3 outlets  on the wall. All three machines already had fused disconnects on the back of them so I didn't think I needed another layer of protection. The RPC does have a a breaker in the main garage panel - of course.


I bought a siemens 3ph panel off ebay as well as two 30amp 3ph breakers and a 50amp 3ph breaker.  The Siemens panel doesn't have a position for a "main" breaker, I just ran the RPC into the 50amp breaker, and an outlet off of each 30amp.  I have room for one more 30amp breaker.  The RPC itself is off a 100a breaker in the main single phase panel.  I used SEU 2/0 aluminum from the main to the RPC.   I'm not an electrician, so it's possible I missed some code compliance but I feel reasonably safe with this setup.  This is a 20HP idler/RPC


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## Dabbler

on the topic of 'unicorns', a friend of mine just bought a Hartford Mill, 7X42, a Taiwanese BP clone. _ In showroom condition._ for 3200CDN$


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## MtnBiker

Ordered some parts from Eisen seeing as their 1640G looks almost identical. The carriage width matched up so I assumed I could get wipers, ball oilers and a micrometer carriage stop (and a new band brake too).



Went from yucky (and not at all wipey) to perfectly wipey. Now I know what all the fuss is about. All the wipers for the carriage were exact except the cross-feed. Eisen beefed that part up quite a bit (and mine is no slouch). The Eisen is definitely a step up in beefy and rigidity compared to the Sun Masters (Precision Matthews) in the 16" class.



Bad color match but this works perfectly too.

So - support is pretty good (at least my hit rate so far). Feeling a little more of that Unicorn thing.


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## MtnBiker

Most of the crud cleaned off. What remains has a nice "patina". This is where I'll put the lathe in our fab shop tool room (or tool section). Still getting the RPC hooked up. So much to do.

Thought I'd leave the thread this way. For the first foray into lathe work the idea of getting a new machine and just jumping in was a little naive on my part. The value in already having a lathe is knowing the sizes of all the other stuff to buy. David Best's book Introduction to Indexable Tooling for the Metal Lathe: A User Guide has been super helpful as a resource to get started. If this is a first lathe it just takes time.




I think (I hope) I got lucky with this lathe. It might be a great long-term investment, it might just be an awesome machine to learn on. Either way, the size is right, even if the branding is unfortunate, and the tooling is a long-term investment. The thing about estate sales is that the machine wasn't for sale (wasn't all used up). Not a bad option if it comes up. Not buying new makes room for more/better tooling and that might just be the part I like best now that I know more.

Happy hunting.


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## matthewsx

MtnBiker said:


> Most of the crud cleaned off. What remains has a nice "patina". This is where I'll put the lathe in our fab shop tool room (or tool section). Still getting the RPC hooked up. So much to do.
> 
> Thought I'd leave the thread this way. For the first foray into lathe work the idea of getting a new machine and just jumping in was a little naive on my part. The value in already having a lathe is knowing the sizes of all the other stuff to buy. David Best's book Introduction to Indexable Tooling for the Metal Lathe: A User Guide has been super helpful as a resource to get started. If this is a first lathe it just takes time.
> 
> View attachment 370810
> 
> 
> I think (I hope) I got lucky with this lathe. It might be a great long-term investment, it might just be an awesome machine to learn on. Either way, the size is right, even if the branding is unfortunate, and the tooling is a long-term investment. The thing about estate sales is that the machine wasn't for sale (wasn't all used up). Not a bad option if it comes up. Not buying new makes room for more/better tooling and that might just be the part I like best now that I know more.
> 
> Happy hunting.


That my friend....   is a unicorn


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## FOMOGO

Looks like a good stout machine, and she cleaned up nicely. Definitely worth a little elbow grease, and might just be a keeper. I just spent about six hrs cleaning my new to me Niles lathe, wearing fowl weather gear, and power washing, scrapping, and hand scrubbing (still hard to beat good old Dawn dish soap for grease) off a century's worth of chips, and a combination of dirt, grease, and oil, on all 16' of her. About tuckered me out, but she's looking pretty good, for an old girl. Mike



MtnBiker said:


> Buy used they said. Well, whoever thought it was a good idea having the coolant tank be integral to the casting...is a DUMMY. I just finished scraping the last inch of sludge out of my lathe. About the grossest thing I've ever had to do. Stuff hadn't been touched for who knows how long and I can't imagine that tank had ever really been cleaned. 3 entire rolls of blue, now brown shop towels, two cans of brake cleaner and two gallons of science experiment to dispose of. I wore a trash bag on my arm up to my shoulder plus gloves. Would have preferred a space suit. So so horrible!


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## MtnBiker

FOMOGO said:


> I just spent about six hrs cleaning my new to me Niles lathe, wearing fowl weather gear, and power washing, scrapping, and hand scrubbing (still hard to beat good old Dawn dish soap for grease) off a century's worth of chips, and a combination of dirt, grease, and oil, on all 16' of her. About tuckered me out, but she's looking pretty good, for an old girl. Mike


That's quite a mind picture - something out of Outbreak. Am I reading that 16' right (as in 16 feet)?


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## FOMOGO

Yes, She's a bit on the looong side, but I try not to mention it in front of her. You know how they can be. Mike


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## MtnBiker

You could land a plane on that! Whatcha gonna make?


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## FOMOGO

Got it mostly for building drive shafts, and because it was just to cool to pass up at $800 fully tooled up. Mike



MtnBiker said:


> You could land a plane on that! Whatcha gonna make?


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## jwmay

You may not know what I'm talking about, but this ending sounded exactly like what I might hear Seth from Seth's Bikehacks saying at the end of a video. I can even imagine him saying it. Lol


MtnBiker said:


> I think (I hope) I got lucky with this lathe. It might be a great long-term investment, it might just be an awesome machine to learn on. Either way, the size is right, even if the branding is unfortunate, and the tooling is a long-term investment. The thing about estate sales is that the machine wasn't for sale (wasn't all used up). Not a bad option if it comes up. Not buying new makes room for more/better tooling and that might just be the part I like best now that I know more.
> 
> Happy hunting.


You got an awesome lathe...fyi.


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## hman

What a beast!  And ya got it for an incredible price.  Congrats!


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