# Heavy 10 Collet Closer - Videos?



## silverhawk (Jul 24, 2019)

Hey, folks;

My Heavy 10L originally came with a collet system, and I've been trying to piece that back together.  I located a flea-bay closer, but after getting it, I'm thinking it is missing a few parts.

Does anyone have a video of a collet closer in action (how they work)?  I'm wondering if I need a different spindle gear on the outboard end of the spindle, and I do know the closer has a woodruff key spot in it with nothing in that area (I expect something that can lock over the spindle gear).  Here's what I have (ignore the missing gear covers, parts are still being rebuilt) :




(As a side note, this whole thing is being "re" built using parts.  I did not start with a full lathe, just a head stock, then adding parts as I find them.)

Thanks!
Joe (silverhawk)


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## MrWhoopee (Jul 24, 2019)

The correct gear has a sleeve on the outboard end with a keyway for the woodruff key.


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## silverhawk (Jul 24, 2019)

MrWhoopee said:


> The correct gear has a sleeve on the outboard end with a keyway for the woodruff key.
> 
> View attachment 299061
> 
> View attachment 299060



Perfect!  That gets me closer.  I think my headstock doesn't have a place for the bracket to bolt up to, so I might have to revisit this whole thing (or make a bracket for the bracket).  Those pictures and your description tell me what I need to know!  Much appreciated!

silverhawk


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## MrWhoopee (Jul 25, 2019)

The arm slips over a stud that threads into a tapped hole on the back side of the spindle bearing. 




It looks like that you have the arm mounted upside down. It's hard to tell from your pics, but some of the parts, including the arm and lever, do not appear to be original.


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## SLK001 (Jul 25, 2019)

It doesn't look like your closer is a SB part.  Here's the diagram for the Hand Lever Collet Closer:


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## silverhawk (Jul 26, 2019)

A discrepancy between that chart and a previous picture is the gear - it looks backwards.  However, both indicate I've got the proper components for a heavy 10 as mine is nearly exact (including the bracket).












The clutch is shaped a little differently from the breakdown drawing, but the shape of the bracket leads me to believe it is the right one.  Can someone tell me the overhang of the gear on the spindle, and the outside diameter?  I can make one of those if they don't show up at the usual places.

silverhawk


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## SLK001 (Jul 26, 2019)

Your handle is upside down.  Please flip it so that the oil cup is upright and take another picture.  Also, the amount of overhang is shown on the clutch sleeve (part # 22).  

I didn't realize that you couldn't zoom into the diagram that I posted, so I am posting it here as a file.


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## silverhawk (Jul 26, 2019)

Thanks, SLK001.  I'll rotate the handle and check the clutch sleeve for some numbers as soon as I can get back to it.  Much appreciate the instructions, as this is completely new territory for me.  Again, thanks!


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## silverhawk (Jul 26, 2019)

After checking on it, there are no numbers or letters stamped into the clutch.  I reversed the lever, and found I am also missing the oiler on the top (it looks like someone didn't have parts and just put a second set screw on the top.  I'll have to work on sourcing that along with the spindle gear (I have the 16DP 14.5PA gear cutter set to make a new one if I can't find one).  I'll also have to drill and tap the hole in the headstock for the bracket, but for a shot in the dark (and not knowing what I'm doing until I'm in the middle of parts), it has the potential to be successful.  I definitely appreciate this forum and you folks!


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## SLK001 (Jul 26, 2019)

There probably isn't a number stamped on the clutch.  If there is, it will be the number shown in the table of the diagram.  McMaster has the oiler for the top - while you are there, you might want to pick up the cup oilers for the headstock bearings.  I see that one is missing, don't know about the other.

You shouldn't have to drill and tap any hole - they are put on at the factory since the early '50's, possibly even earlier.  Look at post #4 for the location of the hole that the pivot pin should be placed in.  If you don't have the pin, I've attached a .pdf of the pin (I've had to make these before).  If the hole has never been used before, you might have to exert some effort to clean all the years of gunk that has accumulated in it.  Once clean, chase it with a ⅜ x 16 tap to the full depth.


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## silverhawk (Jul 26, 2019)

I don't have the pin, nor the place for the pin.


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## silverhawk (Jul 26, 2019)

By the way, this is an old cast iron bearing headstock, and it is not the original headstock for the bed.


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## SLK001 (Jul 26, 2019)

Okay, then you'll need these instructions:


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## silverhawk (Jul 26, 2019)

Those are perfect!


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## lafester (Jul 26, 2019)

Nice... I've searched many hours and have not seen these posted anywhere. Thanks

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## SLK001 (Jul 27, 2019)

Here's some pictures of the needed gear.  The gear has the same dimensions as the gear that is on the spindle right now, except that it is 2.000" long (not a critical dim).  In trade for these pics, I need a picture from you - I want you to take a picture of the insides of both the yoke segments (the two bronze pieces under the handle - loosen the set screws on the handle and they will just fall out).

Also, one more thing... The gears are made out of CAST IRON, so DO NOT try to pry them off with a screwdriver.  ONLY use a gear puller to remove them.  The TAKE UP NUT right before the gear on the spindle is ALSO CAST IRON!  To remove the gear may involve REMOVING THE ENTIRE SPINDLE in order to get enough room to place a gear puller behind the gear.  The gear is a loose press fit and MUST have the woodruff key in place.  Hitting the location of the key from over an inch away can be daunting, so if you miss it, pull the gear again and try again.  Do NOT try to spin the gear on the spindle to hit the key - this runs the risk of cracking the gear.


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## silverhawk (Jul 27, 2019)

Here are the pictures of the brass rings.  I had a nearby cheap (and only 0.01" 'accuracy') caliper near by, so I threw that into the pictures to get a little idea on dimensions.  If you want me to grab the micrometer and gather actual dimensions, I can do that.

























Again, thanks for all of the assistance here.


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## silverhawk (Aug 10, 2019)

Just an update, those above instructions worked.  I now have the collet closer pin ready.
































Yes, that is a live center stuffed into the drill press handle so I could keep the tap centered on the axis of the hole.  It's the second time I've done it, forgetting both times that the center _doesn't_ have a tang for removal from drill press spindles (had to use my ball joint separator forks to get it out again).  I'm pretty excited to have this running.  I still have to make the gear and do the oiler set screw for the bushing, but that's it.  Woohoo!


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## SLK001 (Aug 11, 2019)

Looks good. 

It looks like you are using some grease on your gears and such.  DON'T DO IT!  

Here's why:  Grease will forever hold any swarf that flies back there (and it will) and the swarf will get jammed into and possibly damage the gears.  The proper oil, on the other hand, will NOT hold the swarf for long and it will eventually be thrown off.


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## silverhawk (Aug 11, 2019)

Thanks for that.  I'm still learning this stuff.  I actually value the correction where an explanation is provided.  I had chosen the grease because the rebuild is taking me so long and because it's sitting out in the elements (on a covered porch).  I'll get it cleaned off and properly oiled (with the right oil, that being the ISO32 non-detergent stuff).


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## silverhawk (Sep 24, 2019)

SLK001 said:


> Here's some pictures of the needed gear.  The gear has the same dimensions as the gear that is on the spindle right now, except that it is 2.000" long (not a critical dim).  In trade for these pics, I need a picture from you - I want you to take a picture of the insides of both the yoke segments (the two bronze pieces under the handle - loosen the set screws on the handle and they will just fall out).
> 
> Also, one more thing... The gears are made out of CAST IRON, so DO NOT try to pry them off with a screwdriver.  ONLY use a gear puller to remove them.  The TAKE UP NUT right before the gear on the spindle is ALSO CAST IRON!  To remove the gear may involve REMOVING THE ENTIRE SPINDLE in order to get enough room to place a gear puller behind the gear.  The gear is a loose press fit and MUST have the woodruff key in place.  Hitting the location of the key from over an inch away can be daunting, so if you miss it, pull the gear again and try again.  Do NOT try to spin the gear on the spindle to hit the key - this runs the risk of cracking the gear.
> 
> ...



SLK001, can I ask a favor?  Do you have measurements for the gear?  Inner diameter I can easily get, and I believe the over all length is 2".  I'm wondering about the outside diameter of the flange.  Is the long gear also cast iron?

silverhawk


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## SLK001 (Sep 24, 2019)

Outside diameter is 2.060, but it's not critical, as nothing goes on top of it.  The overall length of the gear is 2.00" and "yes" it is also cast iron.  If you can make gears, cast iron is a good choice due to its wear characteristics.

I just noticed that the exploded parts list above shows the long gear BACKWARDS in the assy.  The gear portion should be in the same place as the current gear.


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## silverhawk (Sep 24, 2019)

Perfect!  Thanks!  I'd like to do a cast iron.  I have the 16Dp gear cutters, and I have a small mill and rotary table.  My brain was able to turn the gear around so that it would engage the reversing tumbler.  I think it's a matter of boring the gear, turning the outside, then cutting it.  I have a small SB 9" junior and an adapter plate on the small rotary that I can shift the work between without having to remove anything from the chuck.  I think it's doable, I just have to sit down and do it.  Much appreciated, SLK001!


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## silverhawk (Apr 4, 2020)

I finally had the chance to cut my first gear.  It turned out the spindle gear on the heavy 10 is an 18 diametral pitch gear.  The change gears for threading are 16 diametral pitch, so I had to buy a cutter.  But, I managed to cut the gear blank.  I added a boss to be able to add a brake/spindle lock/possible indexing plate (I probably won't do indexing on it, but you never know).

Anyway, setup was a bear.  I should use a self-centering chuck on the indexing head, but I only had a 4 jaw independent.  I finally got it centered, then I got the axis centered for the mill and proceeded to cut :






















Because Harbor Freight mini mills don't have room, I had to move everything to the drill press (and change the direction the chuck was holding the gear to get the boss to the topside).  Again, setup was the pain.  Once done, three holes that I can tap.











I'm pretty stoked!  I only need to cut the keyway now.


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## SLK001 (Apr 5, 2020)

Having the "boss" means that you won't be able to put on your gear cover top (that's bad).  If you want to use an indexing wheel, you could make an expanding sleeve that sides into the spindle bore and locks in place with a bolt.  I made one a long time ago that worked just fine.  Here's a spindle crank that I made that could easily be modified.

You should make two extra of those gears and put them up on ebay.  The gear you made is usually as rare as hen's teeth.  Just price them at half the cost of your CI blank (or $60, which ever is greater).


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## silverhawk (Apr 5, 2020)

SLK001 said:


> Having the "boss" means that you won't be able to put on your gear cover top (that's bad). If you want to use an indexing wheel, you could make an expanding sleeve that sides into the spindle bore and locks in place with a bolt. I made one a long time ago that worked just fine. Here's a spindle crank that I made that could easily be modified.
> 
> You should make two extra of those gears and put them up on ebay. The gear you made is usually as rare as hen's teeth. Just price them at half the cost of your CI blank (or $60, which ever is greater).


That is true. Thanks for the reminder. Do you recommend not having the attachment installed if not using the collets?

joe


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## SLK001 (Apr 5, 2020)

The attachment (extended gear) is very difficult to get on (and off), so once it is on, leave it on.  If you are using the collet closer, it is part of the apparatus.  If you're NOT using the closer, the extended gear doesn't get in the way.  With the gear on, you will still have the full dimension of the spindle bore at your disposal.


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## silverhawk (Apr 7, 2020)

I just realized I cut the dumb thing with the wrong cutter. I used the 16dp cutter instead of the 18dp. I realized it when the teeth didn't write look right so I pulled it up. I had the wrong one. I don't know if I can clock it in and recut, i might just scrap out and start over. 

joe


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## SLK001 (Apr 7, 2020)

That's a real deflater.  Do you have enough material to try again?


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## silverhawk (Apr 8, 2020)

I do. I want to reduce the setup time, so I am waiting on a new chuck and back plate for the indexing head. It is an old indexer, so the only plate I can find is larger than it can handle. That means I will have to trim it closer to the final diameter, then add it to the indexer and true it up using these mill. Once I have it set in, I can install the chuck, slap another blank in, and cut away. I am not as worried that I will mess it up yet again, twice already. Third times the charm. 

joe


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## MrWhoopee (Apr 11, 2020)

I've always found that the second (and third) attempts go MUCH faster than the first. 

One of the machinists I worked with once said of Fred, "He can scrap a part and remake it in less time than it takes for most guys to scrap the first one."


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## jaylude (Nov 2, 2021)

This is a great thread, thank you guys for all the info within. Is there any reason a simple sleeve with a keyway broached into it can't be pressed on the spindle, and butted up to the non-lengthened spindle reverse gear? Obviously the intent would be for that sleeve to be the proper length to give an overall of 2" between the sleeve and non-lengthened spindle reverse gear.

MrWhoopee, maybe I'm just seeing something that's not there, but it almost looks like this is what is on your lathe in Post #2 - are those small tack welds between such a sleeve and the reverse gear? Or are those little button head screws that pin something in place?


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## SLK001 (Nov 2, 2021)

jaylude said:


> This is a great thread, thank you guys for all the info within. Is there any reason a simple sleeve with a keyway broached into it can't be pressed on the spindle, and butted up to the non-lengthened spindle reverse gear? Obviously the intent would be for that sleeve to be the proper length to give an overall of 2" between the sleeve and non-lengthened spindle reverse gear.


The keyway on the spindle is only a small woodriff key holder.  The keyway doesn't extend to the end.  But to answer your question, there is no reason not to do what you suggest.  The sleeve (or the long gear) doesn't drive anything and only serves as a mounting point for the rest of the closer.  Part of the closer mates with the keyway in the gear, so you'll have to remove any keys from that part, too.  These parts operate just fine with just a light press fit.  You'll have to devise a way for the removal of said extension, since it will no longer be obvious.  Maybe two notches for a gear puller up at the gear end.


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## MrWhoopee (Nov 2, 2021)

jaylude said:


> MrWhoopee, maybe I'm just seeing something that's not there, but it almost looks like this is what is on your lathe in Post #2 - are those small tack welds between such a sleeve and the reverse gear? Or are those little button head screws that pin something in place?


I believe what you are seeing are set-screws. Some previous owner put them in for reasons unclear. My closer is missing the woodruff key but it doesn't seem to matter.


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