# Help With A Hammond #4 Voltage



## Lordbeezer (Dec 8, 2016)

Hello..picked up a Hammond #4 grinder.the motor tag is missing.tag on back of machine has wiring for low or high voltage.motor has 3 wires.looks like new inside.single phase or 3 phase?voltage?was owned by US government..breaker box has 3 terminals.line/load..not marked..line/load...has forward off reverse switch..this machine has shown me how much I don't know..any ideas..thanks


----------



## Ulma Doctor (Dec 8, 2016)

if you can post pictures that would help out.
are the wires available colored?
a single phase motor may have a capacitor on its outside diameter
three phase motors running on 3 phase, will not usually use a capacitor

some possible problems..
115v single phase will be low voltage, 220/230v single phase will be considered high voltage
220/230v 3 phase will be low voltage, 440/460 would be considered high voltage


----------



## Lordbeezer (Dec 8, 2016)

I'll try to post pictures tomorrow .the three wires coming off windings are all black.no capacitor.thanks for your reply


----------



## Lordbeezer (Dec 9, 2016)

I'm guessing this is a 3 wire 3 phase motor..please advise if you think it is or not.gonna try to post pictures for the first time.thanks


----------



## Lordbeezer (Dec 9, 2016)

Don't know why pictures posted twice


----------



## Lordbeezer (Dec 9, 2016)




----------



## Ulma Doctor (Dec 9, 2016)

it's a 3 phase motor.
it appears that someone has tried to scratch out the low voltage connection diagram, it may be indicative of a high voltage rewind- but i can't say for sure
the best way is to hook up some 3 phase power to it and see if she spins up on the supply you have available.
if the grinder doesn't spin up, you may need to get a 3 phase transformer, or otherwise produce 3 phases in the correct voltage


----------



## Chipper5783 (Dec 9, 2016)

Looks like 220 / 440 3 phase.


----------



## Lordbeezer (Dec 9, 2016)

Thanks for the info..how is the cheapest,maybe not the best way to put 3 phase to this to see if motor works.vfd?converter? Thanks.rather be working on my 10k gap bed but couldn't pass this grinder up


----------



## Ulma Doctor (Dec 10, 2016)

A static converter or rpc can easily be made from spare components and a spare 3 phase motor
I'd consider a rpc due to the unknown voltage of the motor you are trying to start
There is a possibility of damaging a sensitive VFD with mismatching motor voltage  and current requirements


----------



## Chipper5783 (Dec 10, 2016)

You want the cheapest way - just to test it? Okay, but there are some obvious risks!  Just run it on single phase, that is all an RPC is doing.  The idler motor is running on single phase.

1. Connect the motor per the low voltage arrangement on the motor plate.
2. Get ready to connect 240V single phase on any two of the motor leads (doesn't matter which two).  Make sure you have a switch and are running through a 15 amp breaker.  Clip a current meter onto one of the supply leads.
3. Spin the grinder up manually, which way does not matter.  You need to get it going pretty good, at least half the rated speed.  How you get it spinning is up to you.
4. Energize and it should come right up to rated speed. Take note of the current draw, if it is above nameplate , shut it off.  If the current is way below name plate, the you probably have the wrong voltage.

Let us know hoe it works out.


----------



## Lordbeezer (Dec 11, 2016)

On the connection tag it shows 9 wires? I only have 3.how would I wire for low voltage? At the forward-reverse switch there's 6 wires.thanks very much for helpful info.i do have a spare 2hp 3phase motor..if I knew how to wire for low voltage I'm thinking will spin up grinder like chipper advised and see what happens.thanks


----------



## Ulma Doctor (Dec 11, 2016)

bacause ther is only 3 wires, that indicates that the motor has ben tapped for single voltage use.
that voltage will either be 220/230 or 440/460
the three wires are all that is necessary to provide power to the motor.
if you change the phase on 2 conductors the motor will run in reverse

this motor may be difficult to start by hand.
i'm assuming you don't have 440/460v supply....
you can wrap a length of rope to the motor shaft and pull the rope like you'd start a lawnmower, while having single phase power connected to the motor.
if the motor runs without strange noises and seems to run well, you have found the correct operating voltage
if the motor sounds like it is laboring to run or makes heat or just doesn't sound right, you may have a motor wired for high voltage
if the motor kicks your breaker, that also may be a clue as to incorrect voltage- the amps go up if voltage is low


----------



## Lordbeezer (Dec 11, 2016)

Thanks for info ulma Doctor ...I know I'm asking very basic questions.was going to run 220 to motor.hook up all three wires from supply to motor or just two hot??..this 3 phase is not sinking in..worked for ford dealers 27 years trouble shooting electrical problems..was simple compared to this..going to install pulley on motor shaft.use pony motor to spin..thanks for your time


----------



## Ulma Doctor (Dec 11, 2016)

you are welcome anytime,
you only have 2 hot legs, so that's all you hook up to the motor.
the 3rd motor wire will have no other external connections to the other 2 motor wires 
3 phase electricity is somewhat different than automotive electricity, but all of the same laws apply regardless of AC current or DC current flowing
if you worked on Ford electrical systems, you undoubtedly have the mental capacity to grasp anything you need to know about 3 phase power, with a little study
here is a start....





i'm more than happy to try to answer any questions you may have in regards to learning about what you don't understand


----------



## Lordbeezer (Dec 11, 2016)

Thanks for reply..have wired two hot off 220 line at junction box to two motor leads.spun motor with my dc motor on my band saw..grinder runs...but kinda slow..like maybe 1/4-1/3 speed..runs same direction forward or reverse..maybe cause turning same direction with band saw motor?.motor not getting hot.is grinder motor 440v??if so how can I speed up rpm..thanks for info on 3 phase site..will study tonight


----------



## Ulma Doctor (Dec 11, 2016)

the grinder may be wired for 440/460 
if you spun it up with another motor and the grinder did not take off, with single phase applied-
sad to say,  you either have a faulty motor or it is not operating at the correct voltage 
the good news is that you can step 230 up to 460 with transformers , and make use of a VFD- but the VFD is not necessary
the bad news is that there is not really a dirt cheap method of making 460v 3 phase, that i am aware of

if you have access to any capacitors over 50 uf, you could make a static converter to test the motor that's already in the grinder- it won't produce 460v


----------



## Ulma Doctor (Dec 11, 2016)

you could also test the motor leads to see if there is fault in the motor.
using an ohm meter,
test motor leads to the frame of the grinder, there should be no continuity
test motor leads by holding the meter lead on a motor wire, then to another motor wire, the should be low resistance shown on the meter- record findings
move one test lead to the 3 rd motor wire and note the ohm reading, there should be low resistance, record findings
now you can move the first test lead to the 2nd wire position and observe the meter reading, low resistance should be indicated, record findings
if you observe the recorded the readings, they should be very close if not equal in resistance for a 3 phase motor in top operating condition


----------



## 4GSR (Dec 11, 2016)

If all else fails,  find you a electric motor shop and take the motor assembly there.  They can quickly check and test the motor and see what voltage is required for the motor and if it is shorted out. They can also rewire the motor for the voltage needed if you wanted them to do so.  It will always be a 3ph motor it cannot be changed to a 1ph motor.


----------



## Lordbeezer (Dec 11, 2016)

All three ohm out at 47--47.5..motor runs smooth.not getting hot..runs slow to me..if I added the third leg it would run higher rpm?  Thanks for reply.


----------



## 4GSR (Dec 11, 2016)

Lordbeezer said:


> All three ohm out at 47--47.5..motor runs smooth.not getting hot..runs slow to me..if I added the third leg it would run higher rpm?  Thanks for reply.


Adding juice to the third leg will not make it run faster.  It runs slow, how slow? 

You need to do some researching on Hammond grinders.  There's a very good chance this grinder is more of a lapper than grinder, that is set up with a diamond lap for lapping freshly sharpen carbide tools.  Hammond made all sorts of grinding equipment in the days for mainly sharpening of braised on carbide tools.
Go look at the Vintage Machinery website and see if there is any literature listed for your grinder or lapper.

Ken

EDIT: Well, it looks like there  is not much on the Vintage Machinery website for the Hammond grinders.  There is a couple of pictures of your grinder posted for comparison, but that's about it.  Ken


----------



## Lordbeezer (Dec 11, 2016)

Ken.thanks for info..will try and get estimate of speed tomorrow .dont think it turns as fast as my bench grinder.has good torque .cant stop it with piece of wood..putting 3 phase power to motor instead of single phase won't speed motor up?thanks for your time.


----------



## Ulma Doctor (Dec 11, 2016)

the motor will not run any faster on full 3 phase.
if the motor doesn't sound bad and it doesn't get hot, you may have a working motor.


----------



## Chipper5783 (Dec 11, 2016)

You say only 3 leads?  The picture of the connection plate shows 9 leads (which would be a normal dual voltage 3 phase motor).  Did you look in the connection box ("peckerhead") right on the motor?

If you really only have 3 leads, then I don't see why that connection plate would have been attached to the motor?

Regardless, with the motor having no load on it - as others have pointed out above, the speed will be the same no matter if it connected for the higher or lower voltage.  The correct connection simply means you will get rated power when the correct voltage & connection is set up.

Glad you are getting it sorted.


----------



## Lordbeezer (Dec 11, 2016)

Motor runs smooth and quite.didn't run but about 10 minutes.didn't get hot.maybe grinders from 30's-40's didn't turn as fast??if motor was a 440v it wouldn't run on 220 I'm guessing. Going to try and get an idea of rpm next.thanks for all the help.


----------



## Lordbeezer (Dec 11, 2016)

Yes. Only three.local guy told me there was more wires stuffed inside motor.so took motor apart to find missing wires..only the three.the connection plate is on rear bottom of grinder housing.motor plate missing.no holes for rivets.it does have 6 wires hooked up in forward.off reverse switch like on my lathe.most are tagged L1..L2..T3. Etc. thanks


----------



## Chipper5783 (Dec 11, 2016)

I have a 10" Excello tool grinder that is about that vintage - 1 HP, 220/440 3 phase motor, 1750 rpm, belt drive to the spindle (which is running about 2100 rpm).  When it comes to shaping / sharpening the brazed carbide tool bits - it is fantastic.  I bought a diamond wheel (which cost a lot more than the grinder) - it is much better than a green wheel on the bench grinder.

http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/carboloy-excello-tool-grinder.37715/


----------



## Lordbeezer (Dec 11, 2016)

Very nice machine..once I get motor sorted out going to take mine apart and clean it up and add some paint.friend has quite a few new Norton dished diamond wheels and quite a few other types.he said if I get grinder working he would hook me up..thanks for reply.


----------



## master53yoda (Dec 12, 2016)

Lordbeezer said:


> Motor runs smooth and quite.didn't run but about 10 minutes.didn't get hot.maybe grinders from 30's-40's didn't turn as fast??if motor was a 440v it wouldn't run on 220 I'm guessing. Going to try and get an idea of rpm next.thanks for all the help.




Speed of an AC motor is a relationship to frequency and the way it is wound.    voltage doesn't come into play on AC induction motors.   Ulma Doc has been giving good info so I;ve just been watching.

Art B


----------



## 4GSR (Dec 13, 2016)

Looking at your pictures over and over, to me, I believe the motor has been rewired at some time in it life.  Part of the dead give away is the red insulation paint covering the internals of the rotor and bell housings.  There's also some green epoxy paint, at least its looks like it around the windings.  These things were not used back in the 1930's-1940's.  Stuff back then was covered with that black tar looking stuff. If not rewired, new leads pulled.  I've seen this done in my past, where the owner only wanted the leads pulled for a specific voltage.  And it sounds to me, the leads were pulled for the lower voltage.  Now that you know the motor runs good, I would attach a VFD to the motor and run it that way.  Ken


----------



## Lordbeezer (Dec 13, 2016)

Ken..was thinking something was done in the past..no dust..no grease from fittings at bearings..has sealed bearings.dont see a way for grease to lube anything.the varnish on windings looked really good.even though motor is sealed didn't see how it could be so clean for age of machine..going to get back on grinder after finishing up my 10k gap bed lathe..thanks for your reply


----------



## 4GSR (Dec 14, 2016)

You're far much better with the sealed bearings in the long run.  You don't have to worry about contaminated grease getting to the bearings using the existing grease zerks.  Even though the class of bearing may not be the same from the OEM, you'll never notice it in operation.  Ken


----------



## Lordbeezer (Dec 14, 2016)

Hello..ran motor today for about 20 minutes.runs very quietly.using my starrett speed indicator looks like motor rpm is right at 1800.. Almost 18 sweeps of dial in 60 seconds.guessing motor is set up for 1750 rpm.noticed motor has newer gray paint compaired to rest of grinder with several layers of paint.thanks for everybody's help.will post some pictures when I clean.repaint and get her going


----------



## Lordbeezer (Jan 2, 2017)

Hello.finished rebuilding my 10k.back on grinder.wired in a 26uf capacitor on leg going to motor.hooked other two motor wires to 220.runs forward.off.reverse very smooth..but after 15 minutes motor started getting hot..do I need to wire in a capacitor in one of 220 legs?going to make a rotary converter soon but thinking it will run hot if I wire it like this one.i have a lot to learn about 3 phase ..any ideas? Thanks Phil


----------



## Lordbeezer (Jan 2, 2017)

Would it be better to use jumper motor on converter motor instead of trying to start it with capacitor.remove capacitor I wired into grinder motor? Thanks


----------



## 4GSR (Jan 2, 2017)

First thing, that is a big oilfield capacitor to have on the generated leg of you small motor.  I would think a 15uf would be better.  The other two legs, I wouldn't put any capacitors on it.  Just direct current from L1 and L2.  As for the motor getting hot, that is the nature of a totally enclosed motor like yours with out an external fan to cool it off.  The motor is not designed for continuous duty as a TEFC motor is.  So it means, you have to stop and let it cool off for a bit after using it for a length of time.  The capacitor should not have an adverse affect on heat being generated.  If you think it is, take it out of the running circuit and just use it in the starting circuit.  Ken


----------



## Lordbeezer (Apr 29, 2017)

Have almost finished cleaning grinder up.still have to make a table.after looking at many posts on 3 phase wiring have wired up grinder.forward-reverse work.turn switch to forward or reverse.turn on breaker.motor hums.hit start button.runs..maybe someone could look at pictures and see if it's correct and safe.have picked up couple contractors.would they be a better choice..thanks for your time..Phil


----------



## Ulma Doctor (Apr 29, 2017)

Hi Phil,
in picture 2, it appears that you have a jumper wire between pole 2 and pole 3- i think that's why you are getting a hum- the poles are shorted
remove the jumper wire


----------



## Lordbeezer (Apr 29, 2017)

jumper powered Capisitor.removed.hummed but wouldn't run.hooked red wire to power.still hummed but did run.thanks for your response


----------



## Ulma Doctor (Apr 29, 2017)

just to be sure...
T4,T5,T6 are connected
T7 & T1 will get 1 leg of 230v
T8 & T2 will get 1 leg of 230v
T9 & T3 will get 1 leg of 230 or will be the generating leg and would get the momentary switch and start capacitor if single phase is supplied.

any pairing Tx could be used as the generating leg


----------



## Lordbeezer (Apr 29, 2017)

You have lost me with the t numbers.is there a diagram you could refer me to.wiring from drum switch is marked L1..L2..etc. thanks Phil


----------



## Ulma Doctor (Apr 30, 2017)

sorry,
 the T(x) connections are motor connections ( power to the motor)
L(x) ar line connections (power in) i'm going by the low voltage connection chart in Post #6 of this thread


----------



## Lordbeezer (Apr 30, 2017)

Both sides of motor wiring tag have been scratched through.can't see in photos.motor only has three wires.thanks very much for sharing your knowledge .Phil


----------



## Ulma Doctor (Apr 30, 2017)

Hi Phil,
do you have 3 phase power or are you trying to start the unit with single phase power?
i seem to remember you running it on single phase.

if this is the case,
2 wires of the motor will get single phase supply
the 3rd leg will get a momentary switch and one side of the start capacitor
the other capacitor pole will need to be supplied with a jumper from either single phase pole to provide the starting capacitance to get it started

here is a diagram that will help out:






note: this system uses a magnetic contactor, capacitor, fuses, and momentary switches to run a 3 phase motor on single phase supply.
the design could be modified for use with a manual motor starter and a capacitor,
Here is How:

follow L2 on the drawing above,
it gets a leg of single phase (L2) and supplies the start capacitor.
the momentary switch is on the backside of the capacitor. the switch controls the application for the capacitors charge .  the momentary switch will dump the capacitor charge into the motor through the 3rd leg.
through your 3 pole switch, 2 legs will get connected to 2 motor poles,  1  switch pole will get a jumper from wire to power the the start capacitor. from the start capacitor you'll connect a wire to the momentary switch, from the momentary switch you'll connect directly to the 3rd leg.

after the motor starts (and you take your finger off the start switch)
the 3rd leg should show voltage when tested against another phase or to ground
the power disconnect will be responsible for cutting off current flow to the system

i hope that made sense, if not i'm happy to try explain differently


----------



## Lordbeezer (Apr 30, 2017)

Thanks for your help.have learned a lot from your replies.yes on single phase..which if any of contractors in picture would work ? When I enlarge picture of diagram the writing is blurry.any way to enlarge?tried clicking on photo.thanks Phil


----------



## Ulma Doctor (Apr 30, 2017)

Hi Phil,
hopefully the video below will aid in some way...


----------

