# QCTP Dorian? Aloris?  Other?



## Reddinr (Jul 5, 2020)

So I'm officially DONE with the QCTP that came with my lathe.  I need to replace it with a CXA tool post of very good quality.  The one I have is the piston type and it does not always stay locked.  I thought it was operator error but today I broke a parting tool and found that the tool holder was loose.  This time I am doubly sure I tightened it very well.  I have a feeling it wasn't operator error the other two times either.  There are a couple of other things I dislike about it too.

So, I have the budget at the moment for top of the line but is an Aloris or Dorian worth it?  Other options?  Does the extra investment make a difference vs. a Phase II or whatever?  This is hobby use mainly but I do some large chunks of steel sometimes and don't baby this 16" lathe.

Thanks for any advice on this.


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## kb58 (Jul 5, 2020)

Also consider a MultiFix toolpost.

Yes, Chinese, but something of an exception, as it's a really well-made product. Yes, it's copied from the Swiss original, but the Swiss company stopped making it, so this place started making one.


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## Buffalo21 (Jul 5, 2020)

I’ve had a Phase II, an Aloris and currently have a Dorian, all wedge type, the fit and finish from the the Phase II and the Aloris is big and the fit and finish between the Aloris and the Dorian Is also big, the Dorian is a piece of art. In actual operation, the difference between them in use was minimal.


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## Reddinr (Jul 5, 2020)

> Also consider a MultiFix toolpost.


I'll check that out too.  I've never heard of it before.  Will I need to toss my CXA sized tool holders or are these compatible if I chose the right size?


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## Winegrower (Jul 5, 2020)

I can see no justification for the extreme purchase price of Aloris parts.   I have most or all brands, and there is basically NO functional difference among them.


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## 7milesup (Jul 5, 2020)

I had a Phase II.  Granted, it was an AXA size but I returned it.  It was no better than the China crap that came on the lathe.  YMMV.
I have given serious thought to that Multi-fix.


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## 7milesup (Jul 5, 2020)

Reddinr said:


> I'll check that out too.  I've never heard of it before.  Will I need to toss my CXA sized tool holders or are these compatible if I chose the right size?


The tool holders are specific to the Multi-fix so you would not be able to use them.  The above link is for the chinese one but the concept started in Germany I believe.  Not sure of the complete story but the rights were sold to Create.  
Link to a video review of them.  Create Multi-Fix Tool post and holder review.


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## Reddinr (Jul 6, 2020)

Ah.  I see.  The multi-fix holder are nowhere near the same tool holder shape.  Worth some thought.  Thanks.


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## ACHiPo (Jul 6, 2020)

I like my Aloris, but would go with Multifix if I was starting from scratch.


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## mksj (Jul 6, 2020)

My concern with the  multi-fix holder is it is a single source holder and you are limited to some degree by the availability and type of holders. The holders are also 3X the cost of generic BXA/CXA type holders , so it can get expensive if you need a lot of holders. Source of the current generic multi-fix QCTP/holder is China, so I do not know how it compares with the original. Aloris and Dorian have indexing QCTP models, but I have seen them fail on occasion, they are also very expensive.

As far as piston vs. wedge most people prefer the latter, the wedge mechanism on the Dorian QCTP moves out and down which provides very reproducible accuracy and secure. I have used generic, Phase II, Aloris and Dorian QCTP, I prefer Dorian wedge action, Aloris is the standard, they all work. Getting into the CXA range they get expensive, so over $600 which may be a deal breaker.


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## NCjeeper (Jul 6, 2020)

I have a Dorian CA wedge style on my Monarch. No complaints. Really beefy.


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## mmcmdl (Jul 6, 2020)

Anyone on here use a FIMS post and holders ? I have a bunch of #4 holders ans was wondering if they would fit on an Aloris CA post . They are a tad larger then my CXAs .


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## Reddinr (Jul 6, 2020)

I think I'm leaning toward a more standard wedge style vs. Multi-fix.  It did occur to me that it might be difficult to source the holders some day and to replace my holders -wasn't- in the budget.  Learned something new though and that's gold.

Dorian has a 4-sided indexable model that can index 24 positions.  How useful is indexing?  4 sided seems of limited use to me.


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## mmcmdl (Jul 6, 2020)

Aloris and Dorian are the industry standard , hence there are many out there available but they are pricey . They do hold their value though when re-selling .


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## mksj (Jul 6, 2020)

I had considered the Dorian Quadra (at the time there was a new one listed on eBay at 1/2 price), but at the end of the Day they all do the same thing, and although indexing is a nice you just loosen the nut and turn the tool post to whatever desired position. The Dorian Quadra style (and also Aloris indexing) allows multiple holders to be mounted at the same time using their proprietary "expensive" holders. Not something I see needed nor fiscally sound, unless you have money to burn.  The Dorian indexing using ball indents, I have seen a few where under high torque they twisted, also one where the post broke. The Aloris uses indexing pins. The standard Dorian uses two dowel pins to align the QCTP, but I do not use them.

I check prices, this would be my suggestion for CXA, the Dorian at $494. Aloris also has a July sale 10% off, but ends up being $564.








						Dorian Tool SDN35CXA, Quick Change Toolpost, For 14
					

Dorian Tool SDN35CXA Quick Change




					www.cets.com
				




Aloris:





						Super-Precision Tool Post CXA
					






					www.aloris.com


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## hman (Jul 6, 2020)

I've had pretty good luck with CDCO and Shars AXA and BXA wedge-type QCTPs.  They hold tightly and reasonably reproducibly.  I think you'll find a world of difference between the piston type and the wedge type, no matter what brand you go with ... especially in the CXA size!  And it's more than likely that you'll be able to continue using you existing tool holders, no matter which brand of "head" you buy.


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## Dabbler (Jul 6, 2020)

Reddinr said:


> Dorian has a 4-sided indexable model



My 4 way has 24 postition indexing and that is a godsend. I have no experience with anything Dorian.  

I have an offshore piston AXA, and offshore piston BXA and a real Aloris wedge BXA.  The real Aloris Feels a lot more solid and stable, probably due to better fitting and quality control.  I haven't ever experienced any shortcomings to the piston type.  I'm sorry for your experience.


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## Choiliefan (Jul 6, 2020)

I've been using an Aloris for forty years,
You absolutely can't do any better.


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## Winegrower (Jul 6, 2020)

But, I feel you can do as good for way less.


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## Buffalo21 (Jul 6, 2020)

Winegrower said:


> But, I feel you can do as good for way less.



I hear the quote “you can buy better, you just can’t pay more” when I‘m working at the nuke plants..........


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## mikey (Jul 6, 2020)

Winegrower said:


> But, I feel you can do as good for way less.



This is like a Ford vs Chevy vs Porshe vs Ferrari ... all get you there but the fit and finish differs. I own Aloris and Dorian tool posts but have used imports on other lathes and I agree - they all get you there; just the fit and finish differs.

With that said, an Aloris or Dorian will be doing it the same way in 25 years ... not so sure about something from China.

Were it not for the cost of the tool holders, I would be tempted to try a Multi-fix, too. They are very cool and apparently quite rigid but not enough to make me switch.


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## Nutfarmer (Jul 7, 2020)

What ever happened to KDK? I love the set l have from the 70's. Hard to find now days. Cleaner lines than the Aloris type and easier to use.


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## projectnut (Jul 7, 2020)

Maybe I missed it, but I haven't seen anyone mention Phase II.  I have a Phase II AXA and a BXA.  The AXA is the piston style and is well over 20 years old.  The BXA is the wedge style of unknown age.  It came with my Sheldon lathe.  I would guess it to be in the 20 year old range as well.  It is shown in pictures of the machine when the previous owner was rebuilding it in 2002.   Both work well and repeat without problems.  I don't know the current price of either, but when I bought the AXA new it was about 1/3 the price of an Aloris.  The nice thing about both is that they use standard tool holders.  I have some Phase II, some Aloris, and some Shars.  tool holders.  They all fit and repeat well.  The last Aloris tool holders I purchased ran around $100.00 each.  The Shars ones were in the $15.00 to $20.00 range.    

Don't get me wrong I have used Aloris and they were excellent.  All the lathes in the place I worked were equipped with them.  If you intend to use the machine 8-10 hours a day, 5 days a week for the next 50 years they might be worth the investment.  On the other hand they're extremely expensive by comparison for a machine that gets used maybe 10 hours a month.

To me a tool post and tool holders are utility items.  I'm not hung up on whose name is engraved on the side.  Al I'm interested in is performance and longevity. If funds were unlimited I might consider an Aloris, however my experience has been that the Phase II units perform well over time and cost far less.  Rather than spend the money on a top of the line tool post I would rather invest it in other useful tooling or additional machinery.


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## epanzella (Jul 7, 2020)

In the meantime why don't you troubleshoot your present holder? There's a lot of piston units out there that work just fine (including mine). It may be just a matter of machining a few thou off a cam.


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## Reddinr (Jul 7, 2020)

> In the meantime why don't you troubleshoot your present holder?


Yes.  I thought I might tear into that as an option and I might do that even if I get a new one.  But, there are a couple of other problems with it.  The handle does not index so it tends to end up over the stock or in an awkward position when tightened.  I might be able to fix that too, not sure.  Griz. says "that's the way it is designed".    The third thing is that the position of the holder when semi-snug and fully snugged changes quite a lot.  I'm hoping a wedge type might help improve that too.   Not sure who's QCTP they use but I want to avoid that one.   I'll be looking at the Phase II's more closely.  Really I would rather buy other tooling with the savings if a Phase II works well.


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## mikey (Jul 7, 2020)

Given that the cost of a Phase II kit (tool post with 5 holders) is not a whole lot cheaper than an Aloris tool post, it might make some sense to just get the Aloris post by itself and use your own holders.


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## Tozguy (Jul 7, 2020)

My Phase II BXA kit came with 5 different holders. It has served me well for several years now and there would be no motive for me to spend more on a 'better' one.

The QCTP has been disassembled for cleaning a few times.  Since the two pistons are not the same length they must go back to the same position for it to operate properly.

There has been some wear on the shoulder inside the body which caused the locking mechanism to bind. Whenever the top nut was fully tightened some binding would prevent the cam barrel from exerting full pressure on the pistons. There is an easy fix to this problem so things are back to normal now.

I agree with the suggestion of troubleshooting your current QCTP. There is something to learn from it even if you move on to a different QCTP.


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## Janderso (Jul 7, 2020)

Speaking from my experience,
I bought an old lathe that had a no name Offshore Tool post. It was terrible.
I replaced it with a Phase II. The Phase II BXA size was about $ 30% less than Aloris. It worked well but I only had it for less than a year.
My newest lathe received a brand new Aloris CXA with the 7 holders. I have added Shars tool holders and they work just fine.
I have used Dorian, I think they are very good quality.
I am stuck on Aloris. This beefy tool post is rock solid and smooth as glass.


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## projectnut (Jul 7, 2020)

mikey said:


> Given that the cost of a Phase II kit (tool post with 5 holders) is not a whole lot cheaper than an Aloris tool post, it might make some sense to just get the Aloris post by itself and use your own holders.



I'm not sure where you're looking as far as pricing is concerned, but an Aloris CXA 5 piece set (tool post and 4 tool holders) is $1050.00 at Travers tools.  The Phase II CXA 6 piece set (tool post and 5 tool holders) is $597.00.  The Aloris set is $450.00 more expensive and has 1 less tool holder.


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## Nogoingback (Jul 7, 2020)

I have a Phase II AXA tool post as well, and it works fine.  (Though I had to take it apart and clean/lube before use: it was full of swarf.). But, Phase II
is now a bit pricey compared with other Chinese brands and the machine work on mine is pretty crude.  The last time I bought tool holders
I bought from All Industrial and they were both cheaper and much more nicely finished than Phase II.


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## Chipper5783 (Jul 7, 2020)

Reddinr, if you don't like the handle position, you should be able to change it by skimming the nut or shimming under the nut or post.

I have a Phase II wedge style CXA on my 15" lathe and a 40 Position "E" on my 11" lathe (the one from China - referenced above).  Both work very well.  I have never had trouble with either one.

*I prefer the 40P.*  Why the 40 postion holder over the Phase II?  since I can reposition for certain tools (such as a Diamond tool holder, or a quick chamfer) without swinging the compound or the post.  The 40P is available with a good selection of holders (not as many as the Aloris style, but still a very useful selection) and they are not a crazy price.  If you intend to make your own holders - the 40P would be tough.


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## mikey (Jul 7, 2020)

projectnut said:


> I'm not sure where you're looking as far as pricing is concerned, but an Aloris CXA 5 piece set (tool post and 4 tool holders) is $1050.00 at Travers tools.  The Phase II CXA 6 piece set (tool post and 5 tool holders) is $597.00.  The Aloris set is $450.00 more expensive and has 1 less tool holder.




eBay. Aloris tool post is about $571.00, while the Phase II kit is $500. He already has the tool holders so the cost difference is minor.


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## Janderso (Jul 7, 2020)

This was about 3 years ago, Phase II aren’t cheap. I sometimes rely on my memory for information.


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## Dabbler (Jul 7, 2020)

i got my bxa Aloris with 2 holders for $404.00 US$  about 14 months ago.  Wasn't much more than a quality offshore BXA with 4 holders, 2 of which I'd never use (boring bar holder  and bump knurler).  So I bought the Aloris.


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## .LMS. (Jul 7, 2020)

Does anyone have experience with the ones Precision Mattews sells?   I am close to saving up enough of my pennies for one of their lathes and deciding whether to buy theirs or get a Phase II.


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## epanzella (Jul 7, 2020)

Reddinr said:


> Yes.  I thought I might tear into that as an option and I might do that even if I get a new one.  But, there are a couple of other problems with it.  The handle does not index so it tends to end up over the stock or in an awkward position when tightened.  I might be able to fix that too, not sure.  Griz. says "that's the way it is designed".    The third thing is that the position of the holder when semi-snug and fully snugged changes quite a lot.  I'm hoping a wedge type might help improve that too.   Not sure who's QCTP they use but I want to avoid that one.   I'll be looking at the Phase II's more closely.  Really I would rather buy other tooling with the savings if a Phase II works well.


Mine is a Grizzly BXA and yes, the locking arm often ended up in an inconvenient location. I tapped extra holes 30 degrees before and after the factory hole.  As it turned out the hole 30 degrees clockwise from the factory location worked fine and I never moved it again. Why didn't the factory do that?


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## erikmannie (Jul 7, 2020)

I just bought a new Aloris CXA QCTP kit, but I haven’t used it yet. It came with six tool posts, and I paid about $1,170 with tax and delivery.


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## erikmannie (Jul 7, 2020)

.LMS. said:


> Does anyone have experience with the ones Precision Mattews sells?   I am close to saving up enough of my pennies for one of their lathes and deciding whether to buy theirs or get a Phase II.



I bought an AXA QCTP from Precision Matthews and I have used it extensively with zero issues.

I almost always work with steel, and this import AXA QCTP from PM appears to be bombproof.


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## projectnut (Jul 8, 2020)

mikey said:


> eBay. Aloris tool post is about $571.00, while the Phase II kit is $500. He already has the tool holders so the cost difference is minor.



If all the OP is looking for is a CXA tool post rather than the complete kit Travers has the Phase II CXA tool post only for a little over $300.00.  That's roughly half the price of the Aloris tool post.









						PHASE II 300W 300 Wedge Type Quick Change Tool Post
					

Tool posts are precision engineered to ensure repetitive accuracyBenefitsWedge Type Tool posts are precision engineered to ensure repetitive accuracy.Advanced design provides positive rigidity to meet the most exacting working tolerances.




					www.travers.com


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## kb58 (Jul 8, 2020)

Agree that the MultiFix has proprietary tool holders, but the prices you guys are listing aren't less expensive than a MultiFix post and holder set.


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## T Bredehoft (Jul 8, 2020)

Reddinr said:


> The handle does not index so it tends to end up over the stock


Could you insert a spacer under the cap of the handle to change it's "lock" position?


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## Tozguy (Jul 8, 2020)

Reddinr said:


> Yes.  I thought I might tear into that as an option and I might do that even if I get a new one.  But, there are a couple of other problems with it.  The handle does not index so it tends to end up over the stock or in an awkward position when tightened.  I might be able to fix that too, not sure.  Griz. says "that's the way it is designed".    The third thing is that the position of the holder when semi-snug and fully snugged changes quite a lot.  I'm hoping a wedge type might help improve that too.   Not sure who's QCTP they use but I want to avoid that one.   I'll be looking at the Phase II's more closely.  Really I would rather buy other tooling with the savings if a Phase II works well.


It really sounds to me like the pistons are switched to the wrong hole. Both pistons ride on the same cam but are offset by 90 deg. For both pistons to lock with the handle always ending up in the same position, the pistons have to be a different length.
The handle is not designed to end up hanging out over the work. That puts it 180 deg. off which is also easy to fix. Be glad to discuss in more detail with you.


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## hman (Jul 8, 2020)

Reddinr said:


> Yes.  I thought I might tear into that as an option and I might do that even if I get a new one.  But, there are a couple of other problems with it.  The handle does not index so it tends to end up over the stock or in an awkward position when tightened.  I might be able to fix that too, not sure.


I've had to solve that problem a couple times with QCTPs.  Nowadays I routinely add extra handle holes at 90º intervals (see post #6 in https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/phase-2-qctp-adjustments-modifications.30523/#post-262027 ).  Then screw the handle into whatever hole is appropriate.


Reddinr said:


> The third thing is that the position of the holder when semi-snug and fully snugged changes quite a lot.  I'm hoping a wedge type might help improve that too.   Not sure who's QCTP they use but I want to avoid that one.   I'll be looking at the Phase II's more closely.  Really I would rather buy other tooling with the savings if a Phase II works well.


Not sure I understand what's moving.  If it's the position of the tool holder on the "head," the wedge type will definitely do better for you.  It also sounds like the dovetails on your QCTP are a bit loosy-goosy.  And a new, decent quality QCTP will solve that for you.

Just in case it's the position of the head on the compound slide that's shifting (rotating), it's often because the top of the slide isn't quite flat.  This sometimes happens on smaller lathes, where there's a round post permanently attached to the top of the slide, the top of the slide is a bit thin, and the force of tightening the QCTP onto the mounting post bulges the top surface of the slide.  If this is the case, you can correct the problem as shown in post #13 at https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/couple-questions-about-my-9x20-lathe.43207/#post-372165


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## Z2V (Jul 9, 2020)

mksj said:


> I had considered the Dorian Quadra (at the time there was a new one listed on eBay at 1/2 price), but at the end of the Day they all do the same thing, and although indexing is a nice you just loosen the nut and turn the tool post to whatever desired position. The Dorian Quadra style (and also Aloris indexing) allows multiple holders to be mounted at the same time using their proprietary "expensive" holders. Not something I see needed nor fiscally sound, unless you have money to burn.  The Dorian indexing using ball indents, I have seen a few where under high torque they twisted, also one where the post broke. The Aloris uses indexing pins. The standard Dorian uses two dowel pins to align the QCTP, but I do not use them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks @mksj for the link to Cutting Edge Tool and the Dorian post. On Monday night at 10 pm I ordered a Dorian BXA tool post from them at $358.00 with free shipping. It arrived this morning at 8 am. I’ve been looking for a new post for a few months, I just could not pass up the price. It was drop shipped from Dorian.


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## mikey (Jul 9, 2020)

Looks like a nice fit and finish, Jeff. Dorian had some quality control issues there for a while. That red knob will automatically give you more accuracy, too, so that's good!


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## Z2V (Jul 9, 2020)

I‘m hoping the red knob will make me a better hobbyist. I’ll get it mounted in the morning while it’s under 102*, I hope.


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## Reddinr (Jul 14, 2020)

Thanks all.  I've been away for a few days so just getting back online today.  I thought about fixing the handle position and maybe shaving off the cam a bit for a better lock but that still leaves the loosey-goosey fit of the tool holder to the QCTP.  So, I think I'm going to go with a new CXA, probably a Dorian although it is hard to choose.  So, I'll go with quality and pretty.  

Z2V.  Dorian will customize the T-Nut for $60 I think.  Did you get that done or are you making/modifying your own?


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## Z2V (Jul 14, 2020)

I did the T-nut myself. I got it mounted last week.


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## Tim9 (Jul 14, 2020)

I’ve got a couple of Bostar’s and an Aloris. The Aloris is old and was in a commercial shop. But all of them perform good. I have had to use a dab of blue Loctite on all of them to keep the spanner nut from unscrewing. But, I’ve noticed some differences in the tool holders. Some of the cheap Asian generics seem looser to me. I’ve never miced them.
     That said, my favorite generic is the Accusize Industrial Tool holders. A couple of bucks more but the fit and finish is just much better.


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## Reddinr (Jul 14, 2020)

Z2V.  CET is much cheaper than any other supplier.  Hate to look a gift horse in the mouth but are you 100% satisfied with the holder from them?  

Re: tool holders, I had one Shars holder that I had to stone quite a bit, else it jammed on the holder.  Others were fine.


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## Z2V (Jul 14, 2020)

I agree with you on the Accusize tool holders. I have several of them myself


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## Z2V (Jul 14, 2020)

Reddinr said:


> Z2V.  CET is much cheaper than any other supplier.  Hate to look a gift horse in the mouth but are you 100% satisfied with the holder from them?
> 
> Re: tool holders, I had one Shars holder that I had to stone quite a bit, else it jammed on the holder.  Others were fine.


Yes, I’m satisfied with the purchase and the product.


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## darkzero (Jul 14, 2020)

One feature of the Dorian SQCTP (S="Super" being the current triple action wedge lock system) that isn't talked about much is the handle position is user adjustable. One of the reasons why I bought it but I've never needed to reposition mine.


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## Reddinr (Jul 14, 2020)

I just bought the Dorian.  Looking forward to installing it.  Thank you all for your help!


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## Z2V (Jul 15, 2020)

I’m confident you will like it!


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## darkzero (Jul 15, 2020)

Z2V said:


> I’m confident you will like it!



If not, he'll definitely need a slap in the back of the head from Gibbs.


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## Reddinr (Aug 8, 2020)

So I bought the Dorian CXA from Cutting Edge tool.  Thanks all for your good advice.  Got the T-mount machined and installed yesterday.  Very happy with it.  The action is smoother and takes much less force to get a good / permanent grip on the tool holder.   Also, the lever arm stays out of the way when locked.  The finish on the Dorian I got was not 100%.  The nice red knob had some scratches in the finish and there was a visible machining line about half way up the side of the post.   Just cosmetic stuff.  For the price it works for me.   Looking at the photo... looks like I better clean my lathe area.


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