# Trying to size a first mill



## krby (Jan 4, 2022)

Apologies if this has been covered already. If so, point me to the thread and I'll delete this one. 

I'm interested in buying a bench top mill. I'm trying to figure out the tradeoffs (besides workpiece size) between something like a Sherline 12"/14"/18" mill, an LMS 3990/6500/6700, or Precision Matthews PM-25 or PM-728VT. I can read the specs, I get that heavier and more rigid is better. I guess what I'm really wondering, is could I "go cheap" on smaller Sherline machine to get started, and if I get hooked in this hobby I'd have more experience and know more about what I wanted in a next machine. This happened to me in 3D printing. I bought my first,  built my second. 

So, what couldn't I do on a Sherline? From other posts, it looks like it will handle aluminum and mild steel, which feels like it'll be fine for  But if I had something harder occasionally, could the smaller machine handle it as long as I was patient and took light cuts? I also assume that I'm giving up some precision, but my guess is that since I'm learning most problems will be my fault. Is it possible to expect 0.001" precision once I build the skill and I'm careful?

I guess I'd might end up replacing tooling if moving from a Sherline-sized machine to PM-sized machine? But a lot of the related tools like parallels, indicators, gauges, would be the same.


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## Asm109 (Jan 4, 2022)

Sherlines are well made and precise. They can work t the precision number you mentioned, operator skill factored in of course.
The limits are power and rigidity which translates to small cuts and low material removal rates.  Sherline sponsors a precision model museum where a lot of the workpieces were made on sherline equipment.  No lack of amazing things there. There should be a link from the sherline website.


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## Chipper5783 (Jan 4, 2022)

Avoid the really cheap.  If you get something that does not perform well, then it is an exercise in frustration - and you may not stick with it.  I suggest going for a good bit heavier, more rigid and have a better start to the hobby.  If you end up not sticking with it - the better machine will have a better resale value.

Don't go cheap.


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## krby (Jan 4, 2022)

Chipper5783 said:


> Avoid the really cheap.  If you get something that does not perform well, then it is an exercise in frustration - and you may not stick with it.  I suggest going for a good bit heavier, more rigid and have a better start to the hobby.  If you end up not sticking with it - the better machine will have a better resale value.
> 
> Don't go cheap.



Ok, so is Sherline something you consider "really cheap"? I've done some initial research that led me to Sherline, LMS, and PM as reputable brands in these sizes. I was pretty settles on the PM-25 or their newer 728, and just figuring out how to justify the cost. But over the holidays, my uncle suggested I look at something like his Emco Unimat 3, which got me thinking that a smaller machine would be good enough place to get started, take less space, and take less initial budget.


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## Aukai (Jan 4, 2022)

It took me 3-4 years to find out I'm hooked. I started with a Grizzly G0755 first, then found this site, and went with a Precision Matthews 1228 lathe. By year 5 is when I knew I was going to upgrade my machines, both sold quickly, and now I have an ACRA LCM50 9 x 50 mill, and a PM 1340GT lathe. I'm glad I learned on my first machines, but it did cost me more in the long run. We have ebay, and Craig's listing on this site, there are some real good deals once in a while.


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## MrWhoopee (Jan 4, 2022)

Regardless of what size machine you decide on, it will be too small, too light, too quickly. Don't start out that way.


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## davidpbest (Jan 4, 2022)

Aukai said:


> It took me 3-4 years to find out I'm hooked. I started with a Grizzly G0755 first, then found this site, and went with a Precision Matthews 1228 lathe. By year 5 is when I knew I was going to upgrade my machines, both sold quickly, and now I have an ACRA LCM50 9 x 50 mill, and a PM 1340GT lathe. I'm glad I learned on my first machines, but it did cost me more in the long run. We have ebay, and Craig's listing on this site, there are some real good deals once in a while.


I agree with @Aukai .  Cry once.  I'm on my 3rd lathe and 2nd mill now.   Maybe the two attachments will help.


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## matthewsx (Jan 5, 2022)

Do you have a lathe yet?

If not I'd suggest finding a good used lathe to start with, there are many things you can do on a lathe that can also be done on a mill but not as much the other way.

I see you're in Los Altos, I grew up in Cupertino and live over the hill in Santa Cruz now. Decent used machines do come up around here but you need to know what you're looking for and be ready to act when they do.

Sherline makes good machines for their size, many folks on here still have their original Sherline machines even after upgrading. 

One of the main factors is what you have for a shop, if you're renting or have a very small space the little machines can work well but if you have the space consider going larger. You won't pay that much more but you'll be able to do a lot more with a bigger machine.

About the only thing I'd tell you not to do is buying one of the really cheap Chinese units you see on eBay, that usually ends up in frustration.

The best move you've made so far is coming on here for advice, there's plenty of folks who have been there and done that so even though we may not all agree you won't find anyone here who will steer you wrong or put you down for considering any particular machine. 

Patience is your friend here, take your time and figure out what you want to do as your first projects. This will guide what machines to get and if you can start small and work your way up.

This can be an expensive hobby but fixing up an older machine is a great way to learn if you have the patience.

John


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## compact8 (Jan 5, 2022)

krby said:


> . Is it possible to expect 0.001" precision



I have an Austrian-made Emco FB2 bench mill which weights about 280 lbs and I need quite a bit of luck to get that precision even with the DRO installed. one thou of an inch is 0.025 mm. The play in the XY table can easily be 0.015 mm, the flexing of the tool adds another 0.01 ~ 0.02 mm depending on the material of the work piece and diameter of the tool so that already adds up to 0.025 ~ 0.035 mm. Then there are other errors such as edge finding errors,  imperfect clamping of work piece, dimension errors of parallels and other sources that I am still trying to be identify.

I have not owned or used the Sherline mills but from the photos the ridgidity of the machine is clearly poorer. Unless you can find a way to compensate for it ( e.g. I need to add at least 0.01 mm to the X/Y value to compensate for tool / head flexing even if carbide tools are used ), I would say it will be very difficult to get the precision you want.


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## Watchwatch (Jan 5, 2022)

How much room do you have? Skip the benchtop if you have space.

You are in the Bay area. You can get a nice used Bridgeport clone for a couple grand. Tons of auctions and Craigslist. MrWhoope is always posting NorCal ads.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Aaron_W (Jan 5, 2022)

People often fixate on materials thinking small lathes and mills can only work aluminum and brass. With a few exceptions that really isn't true, a decent small lathe or mill can turn many hard materials with care, just more slowly than a big machine.

Sherline and Taig both make nice small mills, but they are small. From what I've found a mill is more limited than a lathe when it comes to size a small lathe is mostly constrained by will it fit and does it have the power. Mills are much more limited by their rigidity. I have a Sherline mill and it is fine for little projects but rigidity usually becomes a challenge well before "it don't fit" does.

Really comes down to what you are going to do with it.

I have a Sherline 5400 3x12" mill (50lbs ish) and a Clausing 6x24" mill (700lbs ish). The Sherline does fine on the small model parts I bought it for, and I still use it for small parts. It has a higher rpm so works well with small drills and endmills so it complements the bigger mill. Drilling holes or milling small details it does just fine. Taking off lots of material or working on larger odd shaped parts was challenging, and it didn't take long before I started looking to add a bigger mill.

It is one of the few mills that you can legitimately pick up and put in a cupboard or under your work bench when it is not being used. I mean you could do the same with a 150-200lb mill but how many people will really do that more than once or twice.

There are a lot of options in between a Sherline and a Bridgeport, so knowing your limitations and needs will go a long way in helping determine what is right for you.
From a financial standpoint it is tough to beat a Bridgeport, there are tons of them out there so they are relatively cheap ($2000-4000 is not unusual). They weigh 1800-3500lbs so not a first choice for a shop in an upstairs bedroom. They are tall 7-8 feet which can also be an issue.

I like the size and capability of my Clausing so when these questions come up I lean towards the PM25 sized mills (727 728, PM30 etc), but I do like and use my Sherline so hate to discourage people from looking at them, just know what is realistic.


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## mikey (Jan 5, 2022)

krby said:


> I guess what I'm really wondering, is could I "go cheap" on smaller Sherline machine to get started, and if I get hooked in this hobby I'd have more experience and know more about what I wanted in a next machine.



Answer: Yes, you can "go cheap"  with a Sherline mill to get started provided your anticipated work will fit within the envelope of the machine. Sherline machines are not limited by what they can do; just on what will fit and allow your tools to access the part.



krby said:


> So, what couldn't I do on a Sherline? From other posts, it looks like it will handle aluminum and mild steel, which feels like it'll be fine for  But if I had something harder occasionally, could the smaller machine handle it as long as I was patient and took light cuts? I also assume that I'm giving up some precision, but my guess is that since I'm learning most problems will be my fault. Is it possible to expect 0.001" precision once I build the skill and I'm careful?



A Sherline mill will machine anything a larger mill will machine, albeit in maybe smaller bites. I've milled mild, medium carbon and high carbon tool steels, stainless steels, aluminum, brass, plastics and wood without issues.

There are no rules regarding what a Sherline mill can or cannot do so I tend to push it until it complains. For example, my 5400 mill will take a full diameter slotting cut with a 3/8" roughing end mill in aluminum; that's 3/8" deep with a 3/8" diameter cutter without even slowing the motor down. That isn't a big deal on a big mill but on a mill that you can pick up with one hand that people think is a toy noodle, that's not too bad. I have taken a 0.125" radial depth cut with a 3/4" long carbide end mill in mild steel and hit the desired dimension dead on the first time. Of course, the mill will take lighter cuts also but it can do a whole lot more than even most Sherline owners think.

A Sherline machine is also quite accurate despite its supposed non-rigid construction. The last job I did for someone other than myself involved making a rear mounted parting tool post from aluminum for another HM member's Sherline lathe. I had to cut a slot for the blade and tried to cut it to depth with an end mill in one go but missed it by 0.0005"; took that excess off without a problem on the second pass using just the handwheels. Then I had to *flycut* the bottom to bring the cutter slot on the exact centerline of his lathe; missed that by a 0.0001" but figured it was close enough. The point is that greater rigidity does not confer accuracy in and of itself. My 800# RF-31 is certainly more rigid but it is not as accurate as my Sherline 5400, not even close. Where rigidity comes in is when you have to take big cuts with big cutters, something I don't do on my Sherline mill. Rigidity and mass also enhance finishes and can have a big impact on your boring capabilities and there is just no getting around that fact.

A Sherline mill is not for everyone. It has limited table travel and vertical clearance can be tight at times. Consider it only if your work envelope is on the small side. Just don't underestimate it.


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## compact8 (Jan 5, 2022)

mikey said:


> I had to cut a slot for the blade and tried to cut it to depth with an end mill in one go but missed it by 0.0005"; took that excess off without a problem on the second pass using just the handwheels.


That's really impressive.  Can you elaborate more on how it is done ?  reducing the height of a work piece accurately by 0.0005" or 0.01 mm is kind of difficult on my machine because of the followings :

1) errors in bring the tool to just touch the surface of the workpiece - all the methods I have tried including, scratching ( with or without paper ) and Z-axis tool setter has an error of 0.01 mm or more.

2) errors of bring the tool down by that small amount - my DRO has a resolution of 0.005 mm so the error is of the same magnitude.  Using the markings on the hand wheel will end up in bigger errors.

These two errors added up already exceeds 0.01 mm. How are they eliminated in your work ?


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## mikey (Jan 5, 2022)

The big advantage to Sherline machines is the accuracy of their leadscrews and the accurate laser engraving on their handwheels. I simply lower the headstock below the desired cut level, then raise the head up to take up any backlash and carefully dial in my desired depth of cut as I come up. Sherline also has a locking lever on the Z-axis so once you set your depth of cut, you just flip a lever to lock it in Z and make the cut. 

I don't have a DRO on my Sherline machines. I can easily interpolate a half thou cut with just the handwheels, or a 0.0002" cut or even less by eye. I may not hit it exactly on these low tenths cuts but I'll come close enough. If I need dead on accuracy then I'll use a tenths dial indicator to dial in the cut but that's not very often. The other thing I do with these tiny cuts is to dial up the speed a bit (easy to do with the variable speed of a Sherline motor) to lower cutting forces and reduce deflection. I always use a Beall ER32 chuck (confirmed at 0.0001" TIR) with a Rego-Fix nut, Techniks collets and quality end mills; this set up is very good at dampening vibration and maximizing accuracy. I suppose it also helps that my spindle also has less than 0.0001" TIR.

I don't think rigidity is a major deal with these tiny cuts but accurate leadscrews, proper speeds and the ability to feel the feed though the handwheels does make a difference. All of these things are strong suits of a Sherline machine. Add in a good tool holding system and the Sherline mill is a very capable machine. 

My mill is over 35 years old. It has the original motor and drive belt, original gibs that haven't been adjusted in maybe 10-15 years and the Z-axis leadscrew and nut are nearly 20 years old. It is still as tight and accurate as it was when I bought it. In all the time I have owned this machine it has never broken or gone down and has punched well above its weight more times than I can count. And as good as I think the mill is, the lathe is even better.


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## addertooth (Jan 5, 2022)

I will take this in a different direction.  There are a lot of people that buy tools to make parts for models (train, car, plane).  If the scale of your intended use is very small, then smaller tools make sense.  

If your intended use is to make motorcycle/go-cart parts, then the size of *most* of your suggested mills may fall short.   

I had to make a similar choice about a year ago.   I ended up going with a PM 728vt.   Some things that pushed me towards that model was the higher power motor, higher precision, one-shot oiler, and availability of well-engineered upgrades.  

For the record, my lathe would be considered tiny.  It may get up-sized in a few months.  The lathe has proven accurate and repeatable, but the smaller through-hole in the spindle is (at times) limiting.  When I got the lathe, the short bed (16 inches) did not concern me, as I intended to 
make use of the through hole for longer parts.  It has required I carefully design any projects, to ensure the parts using the through hole are 3/4 inch or smaller.  

We both probably suffer from realistic limitations as well.  I had limited space, and only 110v power available in the workspace.  This drove my decisions as well.  With small spaces, equipment placement is important, BUT also think of the use of the entire space.  For the Mill, I integrated the table to also be used for a vise and assembly space.  When you integrate like this, you get better use of limited space.  Keep in mind when you are planning the space for the mill, you need "unobstructed space" for the full travel of the table to the left AND right.  You must allow for that unusable space in your layout. 

The final note is critical.  Don't go cheap on cutting tools (like end-mills).  Generally speaking a 3/8 inch, 48 dollar coated carbide endmill will last at least 4 times as long as a 12 dollar bargain end mill.  I tend to like the end-mills which have asymmetrical flutes, as they are less likely to resonate on smaller (less rigid) milling machines.  

It is a humorous evolution I tend to see.  Many people upgrade to a larger milling machine AND also upgrade their cutting tools.  They give all the credit for improved cuts on the larger machine, when a portion of the improved cuts can actually be assigned to better cutting tools.  With a smaller and lighter machine, the quality of your cutting tools strongly drive the level of satisfaction.  Avoid using those "value-bargained end-mills" for serious work.  You will spend more money on better cutters, but in the end, it will be worth it.  As a side note, I do have a bargain-bundle 2-flute and 4 flute (uncoated) end-mill sets. But, when serious work needs to be done, the more pricey end-mills get used.


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## BGHansen (Jan 5, 2022)

If you decide to go the used route, try Facebook Marketplace which has more listings than Craig's List.  Here are a few hits for a couple of lathes and a nice price on a small knee mill in your general area.  I use the website "www.searchtempest.com" for CL searches.

Bruce











						Upright knee milling machine - tools - by owner - sale
					

Great machine in great condition



					yubasutter.craigslist.org
				












						Metal Presision Gap Lathe Shenwai 12 in. x 36 in. - tools - by owner...
					

Shenwai Gear Head Lathe, Taiwan made. 12 in. x 36 in. cuts both S.A.E. & Metric threads, cam-lock chucks with 3 & 4 jaws & face plate. Two study rests. 1 1/2 hp. 115/220volts, 40-1450...



					medford.craigslist.org
				












						HF 10x12 metal lathe W/ quick-change tool - tools - by owner - sale
					

Ready to go, has tooling kit from little machine shop with boring tool, drill chuck, multiple bits and the quick change tool post. I am in over $1000 with the quick change kit. Don't make offers the...



					goldcountry.craigslist.org


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## Bob Korves (Jan 5, 2022)

Bigger machines can do bigger work, and do the small work as well.  Small machines can only do smaller work.  Try not to limit yourself more than is necessary due to work space and monetary issues...


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## compact8 (Jan 5, 2022)

davidpbest said:


> Maybe the two attachments will help.


That's a very good overview article on mills.  The article says "....the head on the PM-935 can be flexed up or down a *few thousandths of an inch* by hand pressure...." . Its quite a surprise for me that big machines can flex by as much as that.


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## tghsmith (Jan 5, 2022)

what you are planning on making has everything to do with deciding on what size of tools are needed,, (budget also has a say in the deal) I know a modeler that does amazing work with sherline gear (brass, steel,ss) I build good sized models(live steam and others) some medieval crossbow parts.. my 2 LMS machines work very well for my current needs.. (and they will be easy to move when the time comes)


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## krby (Jan 5, 2022)

Thanks for all the feedback! I should have included shop space in my initial post. It's not a dedicated shop, it is some open space in our attached garage, that is already pretty full. I don't see how to do a floor standing machine in the space I have. My plan was to put it on the end of a workbench, that will have enough space on the left and right for travel and stock if needed. Also, the more it costs initially the harder it is to justify for myself, also 120V <15A is a pretty hard requirement for now. If I end up loving the hobby, I could figure out getting 240V to right location, but it's a tough lift for now. Space wise, to fit something like a PM-25 or 728 or similar LMS, I would sell my stand-mounted drill press (nothing fancy, just a WEN) and use that space for the mill. It's open enough on the left and right to have enough travel. 

Thinking about the times in the last 2-3 years I've thought that a mill or lathe would be useful. It's all small parts, aluminum or steel would have been fine. The biggest thing was wanting to put slots in 12x12x5/16" aluminum plate. The others were much smaller, a few inches across, brackets and such to fit existing things in the house. Several of these small parts might have been hard to shape without CNC, so that's another complication. I'm pretty comfortable with computer and electronics side of things, comfortable with Fusion 360 and g-code from 3D printing. 

So right now, I'm leaning towards less expensive and smaller as a starter tool. From at least a few people who replied here it feels like for my personal hobby projects, it will do what I want for the next few years if I have the skill. The point about not going cheap on tooling is important, a less expensive machine helps me do that. I'm still thinking about this, not rushing at all. I'll try and cost out the options to get the out-the-door price and see what I would be spending. But, right now even the 50lb Sherline feels like a much easier tool justify given all the accessories I'll need to purchase regardless.

Quick follow up. The "bigger" machines in my original post use R8 while the Sherline machines all appear to be MT1. If I buy quality end mills, I would still be able to use them with an R8 machine in the future, right? I would have to buy R8 tool holders in the right sizes, but those cost a lot less than the mills themselves.


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## davek181 (Jan 5, 2022)

I had the same dilemma, how much do i need to get by?  My solution after much study and going back and forth was to purchase a PM 30MV.  I was liking the 728 which is similar size but the 30 was 240V and physically heavier and  also used the R8 tooling.  I didn't want to run a 240V circuit, but in retrospect I am glad I did in the end.

I already had an Atlas/Craftsman 12" lathe in house that was the source of a similar thought as to how much i needed or could justify spending.  I finally bought the mill thinking it would be handy to have, but no particular purpose on mind.

Now I wonder how I got along without either.  I like the lathe even though some call it very light duty.  If you take your time and learn to use it properly it works well, at least for my purposes.  The mill is very similar, light duty, but very useable if you take your time.

If I were you I would buy a PM mill and sell your drill press if you need to for room.  You can always use the mill for a drill press, a really accurate and repeatable drill press to boot.  You may outgrow, or desire more power later, or maybe not.  I am pretty happy with my setup and I doubt I will upsize anytime soon.  I would have to get a really good deal on a large machine to even consider the hassle of changing.


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## Bi11Hudson (Jan 5, 2022)

Though for different reasons than what you describe, I still "feel your pain". My shop is an old residential wood frame structure with weight limitations. Electrically I have the ability to run a good size welder but with a hundred year old wooden structure. . . I desire and would love to have a full size Bridgeport knee mill. But with my limitations, that ain't happenin'. For my milling, there is a shaper, an Atlas S-7, a small horizontal mill, an Atlas MF-C, and a Horrible Fright vertical that was acquired as a controllable drill press. The HF machine has an R-8 quill, the MF-C has an MT-2, and the shaper is a shaper, it'll take most anything. There are two lathes, the larger a Craftsman (Atlas) 12X36. (101-27440) The machines are arranged to use the existing foundation pedestals to bear the weight.

These are small, light weight machines. So I am limited to my model building and small electrical and electronic gizmos. About the largest gizmo I have built was an electrical 3 wheel bicycle. A B&S-0 indexer will fit those small machines, barely. I acquired small rotary tables (2) and added the fraction plates because the B&S-0 is so big. I do some work on my tractor, but can't tackle the heavier work. *Anything larger must be foregone, it's that simple.*

The end result of my rambling is that you should go with the largest machines you can. Subject to limitations, of course. The dollars spent on a Sherline or Taig would be well spent. They are good machines, within their size limitations. But when the time comes to increase the size of your machines to do serious work, they may prove more difficult to unload. More likely, they would end up in storage, gathering dust. I would say to "bite the bullet" and go with larger machines to start with. 

A Bridgeport would be an ultimate solution. But difficult to handle. . . A Grizzly machine would be a starting point if you were willing to fine tune it from the git-go. LMS(Little Machine Shop) and Micro Mark list decent machines that are ready to go. Micro Mark is a model distributor so a little pricier than LMS for the same equipment. And LMS is machinist oriented so support will be better when you get in trouble. For this reason HF should be avoided. They don't even stock all spare parts or know about what they sell. They're just resellers, and poor ones at that.

.


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## Bi11Hudson (Jan 5, 2022)

An afterthought:
*Most* tooling fits a "tool holder" of some sort. Going from an MT-1, for example, to an R-8 would be as simple as removing loosening a setscrew and swapping over the tool. There is some limitation on the size of tool that can be held and driven by MT-1. But most tooling can be easily transferred from one to the other. Although I don't use the HF machine as a mill, I have a large selection of tooling should I ever have a reason to do so. The horizontal machine is an MT-2 and I do use a number of tools meant for a vertical mill on the horizontal machine. An angle plate and my imagination make the horizontal into a vertical.

.


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## Aaron_W (Jan 5, 2022)

One more thing to add in regards to Sherline, that is often not the case with many of the small Chinese mills. Sherline has excellent customer service, and the machines usually work straight out of the box due to good quality control. In those cases where something got past QC the company will work with you to make it right.

The same can be said for Taig, with the exception that there can be some finish work to do by design, as that is one way they keep the price down. Taig does point out when there is finish work required.

Sherline and Taig are made in the USA (manufactured, not just assembled) if that is a consideration for you. Both can easily be converted to CNC.

Again though I stress the size of your work, because these are very small mills.


Another possible option, although on the large end of your options is one of the Rong Fu style round column mills. These can often be bought used for $1000 sometimes much less. They have their own set of drawbacks related to the round column, but this is mostly a time issue for set up not capability. You can get a lot of mill for your money.

An example of the type, this one sold by Grizzly

https://www.grizzly.com/products/grizzly-8-x-29-2-hp-mill-drill-with-stand/g0705

I would never advocate buying one of these new as I feel there are better options at the price, but used these can be a great value.


As to your tooling question, yes the cutters are like drills and a drill press, easy to move from one machine to another. Not the case with everything as some are made to fit the taper (MT1, R8 etc) but end mills, boring bars and drills are usually held in a collet or other holder.



Bi11Hudson said:


> The dollars spent on a Sherline or Taig would be well spent. They are good machines, within their size limitations. But when the time comes to increase the size of your machines to do serious work, they may prove more difficult to unload.



That has not been my experience, they actually hold their value well. In fact I bought both my Sherline machines and Taig lathe new, because they don't show up for sale all that often, and the used prices I found were usually so close to new it didn't make sense to me to risk used issues just to save $100-200.


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## Aaron_W (Jan 5, 2022)

Bay Area is a big place, but I just saw this in Burlingame, looks like a Taig CNC set up, and could be a great deal even if it turns out to have some issues.

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/tls/d/burlingame-small-cnc-machine-with/7428302809.html


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## mikey (Jan 5, 2022)

Aaron_W said:


> That has not been my experience, they actually hold their value well. In fact I bought both my Sherline machines and Taig lathe new, because they don't show up for sale all that often, and the used prices I found were usually so close to new it didn't make sense to me to risk used issues just to save $100-200.



I agree with Aaron. Sherline machines sell before the ink dries on the ad.

Aaron, I remember when you first joined HM and were looking at your first Sherline machine. I just noticed the list of machines you've accumulated in your short time in this hobby and it is really, really impressive! Many of us have been bitten by the machining bug but you've been chewed up and spit out!

As I read through this thread today, I recall @DavidR8 when he first started out. He said he just didn't have any room, just like our OP here. Remember that? Then he did a full remodel of his shop and outdid most of us here! @krby, you have been warned - hang around here and you're going to get bitten!

I have to say that watching you guys come along has been a real privilege. Our hobby and HM has grown so much and so fast and it will be guys like Aaron and David (and many others I could name) that carry things forward. I'm really happy about that.


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## DavidR8 (Jan 5, 2022)

Gosh @mikey those are mighty kind words! Many thanks!
I've said this before but I'll say it again: the HM community is the most amazing group of folks I've ever encountered on the web!


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## Maplehead (Jan 5, 2022)

I started with the micro mill and micro lathe seen below and then moved to the two bigger machines.
The LMS 4700 is 110 pounds and the Grizzly G0475 is only 36 pounds. lol
However, in aluminum and brass I did a heck of a lot of things with those tiny machines.
But like everyone else said here, you'll want bigger soon after.
Many of the small accessories I bought for these two machines were no good for the bigger ones. So a lot of money gone.
I donated it all to the high school here in town. The robotics class uses them now.
And I'm relieved of many many thousands of dollars more of my money now.
But I love my bigger boy mill and lathe. They will suit me until I'm too old to run them.


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## Maplehead (Jan 5, 2022)

One more thing. Whatever mill you end up buying, do not get this vice for it. It is the worst designed PoS ever made.
You will be so frustrated trying to adjust it.


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## krby (Jan 5, 2022)

mikey said:


> @krby, you have been warned - hang around here and you're going to get bitten!


I have had other hobbies like that. Honestly, if I really really end up loving this, a rented shop space wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. But not affordable right now. My wife would be happy to have the home workbench only for home projects and not the various electronics-related crap that sits on it now. Oooh....finally I could have enough space to stock all the wire and fasteners I want!


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## WobblyHand (Jan 5, 2022)

Maplehead said:


> One more thing. Whatever mill you end up buying, do not get this vice for it. It is the worst designed PoS ever made.
> You will be so frustrated trying to adjust it.


It's a pretty good vise.  Probably need to replace the screw with one about 5-10 mm longer.  On mine, I replaced the screw with a piece of all-thread and made a custom nut with standoff on my mill.  A tool makers vise is pretty rigid.  Jaw lift on mine was only 0.0005".  If I need to do something precise, I use it.


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## Aaron_W (Jan 5, 2022)

mikey said:


> I agree with Aaron. Sherline machines sell before the ink dries on the ad.
> 
> Aaron, I remember when you first joined HM and were looking at your first Sherline machine. I just noticed the list of machines you've accumulated in your short time in this hobby and it is really, really impressive! Many of us have been bitten by the machining bug but you've been chewed up and spit out!
> 
> ...



Yeah it is a little insane, I blame Craig and his damn list.


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## mikey (Jan 5, 2022)

krby said:


> I have had other hobbies like that. Honestly, if I really really end up loving this, a rented shop space wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. But not affordable right now. My wife would be happy to have the home workbench only for home projects and not the various electronics-related crap that sits on it now. Oooh....finally I could have enough space to stock all the wire and fasteners I want!



I am warning you now so don't say nobody ever told you this. 

Hobby machining is NOT about machining as much as it is about improving or extending your self-reliance, capabilities, self-confidence and knowledge about a vast array of stuff. In other words, it makes you feel good about yourself and what you can do (compared to other mere mortals who are not machinists) and that is what sucks you in.

You will find this hobby to be one of the best ways to deposit money on a shelf so that it is not usable for anything else. There are countless rotary tables, dividing heads, super-spacers, tilting angle tables, sine tables and many other devices that are currently sitting on shelves right now; they will be used once in a great while and then put back on the shelf to sit for another 5-10 years. There is nothing wrong with this if you have the money to store. Just know that you will likely be storing a lot of money in this hobby. 

The best way to throw away money is to buy junk stuff. Hobby guys tend to think that "this is just a hobby; I'm not making parts for NASA" so cheap stuff is fine as long as it looks like the real stuff. Cheap stuff is just that; cheap stuff. It looks like the good stuff but doesn't work like the good stuff. Before buying any stuff, learn all you can about it and which one is the gold standard for that tool and then go find one at a price you can handle, and buy it only once. Many of my tools are top of the line, purchased on ebay in either new or mint condition for less than an import version of the tool costs. Know what you want and jump when you see it.

Spend money on things that matter. On a mill, the vise and the tool holding system are the two areas where you should not scrimp because these are the foundations of accuracy. Research your choices to death before you jump on these important tools. Everything else is more flexible. 

Know that tooling up a machine can, and probably will, cost you as much or more than the machine itself. Be sure you understand this because it is absolutely true. When looking at a mill, figure that it will cost double the price before it is fully functional. Sorry but this is the reality in this hobby and it doesn't even include the stuff you deposit on the shelf. You sure you want to get into this?   

You should also know that it is the solemn duty of every HM member is to help you spend your money. We take this responsibility very seriously here and if you hang around long enough you will see that I speak the truth. 

I just wanted to inject a bit of reality into this discussion. Your only defense against the rabbit hole is not to step into it in the first place. Remember that I warned you, okay?


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## Aukai (Jan 5, 2022)

He ain't lying 
You can also post any pre purchases here for opinions, I see a lot of I bought this, what do you think posts. After you buy it is not the time to ask.


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## DavidR8 (Jan 5, 2022)

"storing a lot of money" I love this... I just converted my shop into an investment bank!


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## wachuko (Jan 5, 2022)

At first, I did not wanted to listen to these guys here telling me to go bigger…

Pretty sure they laughed and held back from telling me “I told you so…”

I ended up with a frigging huge knee mill and a 14x40 lathe…and I still do not know how to use any of this!!!!

If this is something you are passionate about…and have the space… just go big, just do it… You will be saving money in the long run…. Do not ask me how I know…


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## DavidR8 (Jan 5, 2022)

I second the buy big first notion. 
I started out with a mini lathe because well, I had no clue. Lots of folks have them and some can do amazing work. Mine was a piece of junk. Luckily I was able to sell it and only took a minor loss. 
Then I hunkered down and looked for a lathe that fit my needs and space. And as @mikey mentioned, I also did a major garage reno so I could fit in more tools.


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## davidpbest (Jan 5, 2022)

mikey said:


> You will find this hobby to be one of the best ways to deposit money on a shelf so that it is not usable for anything else. There are countless rotary tables, dividing heads, super-spacers, tilting angle tables, sine tables and many other devices that are currently sitting on shelves right now; they will be used once in a great while and then put back on the shelf to sit for another 5-10 years. There is nothing wrong with this if you have the money to store. Just know that you will likely be storing a lot of money in this hobby.



Well spoken.  Some of my favorite (I'll need this someday) tools now sit side-by-side with my horology collection.  Get started now - _*click here*_. The lesson here is to acquire tooling as you need it, not prospectively just because it's a "bargain".


mikey said:


> The best way to throw away money is to buy junk stuff. Hobby guys tend to think that "this is just a hobby; I'm not making parts for NASA" so cheap stuff is fine as long as it looks like the real stuff. Cheap stuff is just that; cheap stuff. It looks like the good stuff but doesn't work like the good stuff. Before buying any stuff, learn all you can about it and which one is the gold standard for that tool and then go find one at a price you can handle, and buy it only once.



This is also sage advice - and the reason I posted my curated list of high quality tooling _*earlier in this thread*_. 

Now, I suspect the chorus of "I bought my XYZ tool [carbide insert] from AlliExpress for $2.19 including shipping and it's AAA+++ quality" will begin. Not everyone can afford to acquire "investment grade" tooling, but if you have the long term in view, and direct your funds to the areas that really matter, you'll be way ahead.  Having participated in this group for six years now, there seem to be a few topics where polar opposite views are continually expressed with resounding furvor: one is about cheap Asian versus quality name-brand tooling, another is imperial versus metric measurement systems, and yet another is sharpening HSS tooling versus indexable insert tooling.


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## krby (Jan 5, 2022)

davidpbest said:


> The lesson here is to acquire tooling as you need it, not prospectively just because it's a "bargain".
> 
> 
> This is also sage advice - and the reason I posted my curated list of high quality tooling _*earlier in this thread*_.


Thanks again for all the replies. I did download your attachments. Part of picking a smaller and cheaper machine is because I've already heard the: "you'll spend at least as much on tooling" warning from others before joining this thread.

The "acquire tooling as you need it" is what is leading me toward the smaller machine. It's easier to justify spending on, easier on space (which increases WAF) and thinking about the parts I've wanted to do in the past couple of years, it's all been maybe a few inches (3x3x3 max?) not counting one 12x12x5/16 plate, which just needed slots near the front and back.


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## compact8 (Jan 5, 2022)

Speaking of tooling, I definitely found the cheap Chinese carbide tools ( end mills, inserts and slitsaws ) to be GREAT. e.g. a 6 mm carbide endmill just costs 3 bucks. At this cost you wont even think about durability but just the quality of cut and precision. I haven't compared them with investment-grade tools but I am happy with the result. Unless you cut tough metals such as tool steels or 304 stainless, the durabilty is good enough for me. Cant say the same for their HSS tools though ( but their price are super low ).

The major shortcoming of Chinese tools is the relatively limited range of options. E.g. they just produce 135 degree split-point drill bits but I want the 118 degree type because I can only get 120 deg carbide spoting drill from China.  135 deg drill bit will require 140 deg spoting drills which are available on Amazon but they are a LOT more expensive.


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## davidpbest (Jan 5, 2022)

compact8 said:


> 135 deg drill bit will require 140 deg spoting drills which are available on Amazon but they are a LOT more expensive.


I think you're looking in the wrong place.  Here are a few of 140° spotting drills I use:





__





						5/16 x 140 degree Carbide Spotting Drill TiAlN MariTool
					






					www.maritool.com
				








__





						3/8 x 140 degree Carbide Spotting Drill TiAlN MariTool
					






					www.maritool.com
				








__





						1/2 x 140 degree Carbide Spotting Drill TiAlN MariTool
					






					www.maritool.com
				












						McMaster-Carr
					

McMaster-Carr is the complete source for your plant with over 595,000 products. 98% of products ordered ship from stock and deliver same or next day.




					www.mcmaster.com
				




Can't beat those prices for solid carbide.    Hope this helps.


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## Dabbler (Jan 5, 2022)

@krby the advice that has appeared above is really great!  I started waaaay before the internet and advice like this.  So I spent a LOT more on machines and tooling that I needed to.  

No matter what you get, the important thing is to make chips.  a lot of them.  Your own experience  is your best teacher.  I have a friend with 13 lathes, for 3 watchmakers' lathes to several Taig and Sherline ones, up to a 24X40 VDF monster lathe.  I've used most of them and loads of other lathes owned by my friends and employers.

Here's the crux of the matter: You can learn a lot on most any quality machine - but the Taig and Sherline machines will limit you to very small stuff, and make you dive into the you-have-to-make-accomodation-for-not-having-a-rigid-machine problem that you won't face (much) on a larger cast iron machine.

The minimum milling machine I recommend is the RF25 or RF30 style mini-mill.  you can take a decent cut on those, even if you cannot do really big work on them.  The practical work envelope on them is around 4" W 12" L and 5" H (when you take into account a vise and tooling)  On a mill you can get away with something this small,* but as @DavidR8 will attest, you can also grow out of them pretty quickly.*

For lathes, this gets really tricky.  You shouldn't buy a lathe by size, unless you *know* the size of the work you will be doing.  Buy a machine that is at LEAST 475lbs.  Why? because the rigidity of a lathe depends on the bed being rigid, and this includes 3 sets of ways which all have flex and play in them. There is a lot of leverage on the lathe bed, and the only remedy is a beefy bed. Some days I feel limited in what I am doing on a 3600lb 15X60" lathe.  I've used a bunch of lathes, and your entry level lathe 'golden boy' is a South Bend (or clone) 9A.  it is a 475 lb bench top 9X30 lathe that *really can do good work* - I used one, off and on, over a 30 year period.

- all the lathes that I have used in the smaller sizes, when cutting steel have taken a very long time, and it was very difficult to hold a consistent chip, and get a predictable and accurate result.  A Taig lathe, for instance, is mostly limited to short parts in soft materials.

HOWEVER  if you have  a very specific interest, such as clock making or RC models, and you are using soft materials, you can go smaller than these recommendations.  The problem is that it is *much* harder to learn on a less rigid machine.

I just don't want to see what happened to a curling friend of mine, to happen to you.  He spent 1500$ on a 7X20 lathe and learned to hate machining, because it was too difficult to hold tolerance.  I have a few friends that have that same lathe, and they have a LOT more patience for learning on a small machine than he had.


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## davidpbest (Jan 5, 2022)

I'll second the vote for RF25 or RF30 to give yourself some upward expansion capability.   Same with the 500 pound or bigger lathe.


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## DavidR8 (Jan 6, 2022)

I think the key in choosing machinery is having a reasonably good idea of the kind of work you want to do. For me, I make moto and bicycle bits, some tooling for my woodworking machines and parts for machines I make (CNC router and CNC plasma cutter) so my machines need not be large.
If I did work on car engine parts or long objects that would require bigger machines.


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## Aukai (Jan 6, 2022)

Confucius says, that the machines you buy first will not be big enough.


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## mikey (Jan 6, 2022)

DavidR8 said:


> I think the key in choosing machinery is having a reasonably good idea of the kind of work you want to do.



This really is the key to choosing a machine for the shop.

I live in a city and make parts for all the hobbies I have - cars, sport bikes, archery, fishing, photography, lawn equipment restoration and others. I used a Sherline lathe and mill to make everything I needed for these activities and while there were a few times when I had to push the envelope, I was just fine for over 20 years with just these little machines. Did a lot of work for other car/bike/archery/fishing buddies, too, and had no problems making do with my machines. I learned almost everything I know about machining from my Sherline machines.

I only stepped up to a larger lathe because my dream lathe turned up on my local CL and my RF-31 dropped in lap for free from my neighbor. If not for these events I would very likely still be happy working with my Sherline tools.

I don't disagree that bigger machines allow you to do bigger stuff but *not everybody does bigger stuff*. I also don't disagree that you can make small parts on a big machine but you cannot make big parts on a small machine, but it is also true that making small parts on a small machine is often easier, faster and more accurate. I would posit that the vast majority of work done on bigger machines would easily fit on much smaller ones if they are sufficiently rigid/powerful/fast enough, and that the occasional larger part that takes advantage of the machine's capacity is an infrequent occurrence. If this is so, and it is, then you are spending more money on a potential capacity that isn't used that often, along with accessories that cost a lot more as the machines get bigger. Plus, you need more space and power to use this stuff.

We encourage our new guys to get the biggest machine they can fit/find/afford all the time. In a job shop, this is good advice. In a hobby shop, sizing the machine to suit the majority of the work the user will do makes more sense to me.


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## Radical (Apr 8, 2022)

Hi Everyone, This is my first post.

I'm building a small home shop with the goal of being able to prototype ideas mostly within the shop.  I've recently bought some equipment and made some mistakes and observations, so I'm hoping while the lessons are fresh in my mind, I can help someone ask the right questions and be happy with what they buy.

Before I got into software development 30 years ago, I was a Precision Sheet Metal Mechanic for about 6 1/2 years, and spent a good deal of that time programming CNC punch presses, and planning out production for most parts and assemblies that came through the shop.  The rest of the time, I was making parts!  I did spend some time on manual mills and a lathe, but not a whole lot.  So I'm kind of a newbie on those.

Although there are some tools you can skimp on, I agree with everyone on here recommending to buy quality over quantity.
You're going to use these tools and machines for many years, so every time you use one of them, you'll either be glad you bought quality, or wish you had bought quality, even if it meant delaying the purchases, or delaying purchase of something else.

I have an LMS 3990 mini-mill from a project my Dad and I did a few years ago, and about a year and a half ago, I bought an LMS 7350 mini-lathe to match.  I bought the mini-lathe because without overanalyzing it, I expected the capabilities of the mini-lathe to match those of the mini-mill.
I was wrong (and I should've done my homework a little better).
As soon as I opened the crate, I thought Wow! This machine is tiny!  I immediately wished I had bought a bigger machine and maybe skipped buying tools that could've waited.
For me, it seems having the next size up on the lathe is more important than upsizing the mini-mill.

I'm agreeing that within reason and mostly within budget, buying the machine you really think is best for you is worth the extra cost.  I'm not suggesting to always buy the bigger machine, because there are other considerations: space, power requirements (I don't have access to 220V), anticipated possible uses (estimate on the big side), if you move a lot, and of course cost, but if you can, get the right machine first, or at minimum consider how much extra it'll cost, and if you'd be better off delaying purchase of something else so you can start with the right base machine.

I like the LMS 7350 mini-lathe.  It seems like one of the best in its class, but I know that in the future I'll be upsizing, and I wish I had bought the right size the first time.  That size may be fine for your needs.  Mini-lathes are great for the right projects, but there is better rigidity in the bigger lathes, not only in the base, but in the cross slide, etc...

I'm planning on buying or converting a mill to CNC in the coming months and will most likely upgrade the mill too.
After looking at costs of prebuilt CNC machines, I believe I'm going to end up with better bang for the buck by converting a machine myself.
I can convert my mini-mill to CNC, but I feel that in the long run, I really want a larger machine, and to be able to make faster cuts than the 3990 supports.

My immediate gauge of size is that one of the parts I'd like to make for my motorcycles is roughly 6" x 6", and with the mini-mill, I'd have to mill one half, then flip the part around and re-align, then mill the other half.  I'll make other things with CNC, but that's kind of my indicator.

So, to eventually have the capacity I want in a CNC mill, if I convert my 3990, then upgrade to a bigger machine later, I'll be able to reuse the motors and the electronics/software, but the cost of the conversion kit/ballscrews for the mini-mill would mostly be lost when I sell it.

So, if I can swing it, I'm thinking in the long run it'll be better to upgrade to a larger mill first, then convert the new mill to CNC.

I'm looking at the Grizzly G0704, the PM-25MV, the LMS 6500, or (what I really want) the PM-728V.

I've read every article I could find, and watched a ton of videos comparing the machines, and the information conflicts.  Mostly everyone likes the quality of the PM over Grizzly, say good things about the LMS 6500, but don't really say where it stands in terms of rigidity compared to the other 2.  On one site a guy who has both says that despite the lower weight and how the column mounts to the base, the G0704 is more rigid than the PM-25 and better for CNC conversion and cutting steel.
The 6500 is interesting because it's the only one of the 3 that has a fixed column, and I'd love to know if that makes it more rigid than the Grizzly or PM-25.

It seems either of the first 3 machines are going to make a good CNC conversion, but it would be nice to know what's the best machine and why.

Then there's the PM-728VT.  This machine is about 100 lbs heavier than the PM-25, and about $1200 more expensive.  It runs on 120V, has an OEM CNC ballscrew conversion kit, spindle speed kit, and DRO available for purchase directly from PM, plus it has a lot of great features, and a 5 year warranty.  It seems to be the best machine in this class from what I can find.  To convert it to CNC would require the OEM CNC Ballscrew kit and Speed control from PM, plus motors, electronics, and software from elsewhere.  I believe this would be a very capable, rigid machine, but with all of the options it costs more than I'd like to spend right now.  I'd love to hear what you guys think of this machine, good or bad.

With the 4 machines I'm considering, one of things steering me toward the Precision Matthews machines is that they have 36 month financing.

To favor quality over quantity, while staying sort of within budget, I'm considering picking up the PM-728VT with the deluxe CNC Ballscrew conversion kit, and speed control, and probably skip the DRO for now, then finance it over 36 months if I can get a decent interest rate.
It'll be a quality base that I can build on, that I believe will suit my needs for a very long time almost no matter what I want to build.

I can then sell my 3990 mini-mill to cover a good portion of the electronics and motors to finish the CNC conversion.

As budget permits and possibly not until I pay off the machine, I'll buy the DRO and other upgrades.

Doing it this way, I end up with the right machine from the get go, or, err, second go, and won't lose money upgrading the 3990 that I plan to replace anyway.
I may also decide that the PM-25/G0704/6500 is really the right size or you might too, or might decide a small Sherline is best.
I'm simply suggesting that if you can, buy the machine you want/need on the first go, and favor quality over quantity.  It'll be cheaper and more enjoyable in the long run.

Have a great day!
Radical


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## addertooth (Apr 8, 2022)

You will likely be quite happy with the PM728-vt.  I have one, so I may be biased.  
If you are limited to 110v power, take a peek at the PM-1228VF-LB lathe. 
​


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## Dabbler (Apr 8, 2022)

@Radical I like your reasoning... 

 In this hobby I started with a 12X37 weighing 750 lbs, and built a stand for it.  I'm still using it occasionally.  I upgraded to a 14 X 40 with a D1-4 spindle (1700 lbs), but it was a basket case, and I have yet to make chips with it.  I then lucked into a 15X60 lathe weighing twice what the other two lathes put together.  My mill progression has been similar, but that's another story...

Since you are changing the lead screws to ball screws for CNC, let me further complicate your reasoning  If you have the luxury of time (you have working machines, after all) see if you can find a used PM728. If Matt knows you are going to do the upgrade with his kit, he may be able to help you find one, or search  Craigslist or Kijiji. You might just end up with something in your price range that is better that new...


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## Aaron_W (Apr 9, 2022)

Interesting, my experience has been the opposite, I found small mills to be more limited than small lathes. I guess much depends on the projects and the specific machine.


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## Radical (Apr 10, 2022)

@Dabbler: Wow! Those are some big machines!  I don't expect to buy larger than the PM-728 ever, but you never know.  At the moment I wouldn't have the space.

I'll keep used in mind, and if I do, I'll take your advise and talk to Matt.  But for now, financing is a must.

@Aaron_W: I think you're right about it depending on the projects.  I haven't cut many chips on either one yet, but I find that at the least, the compound slide on the mini-lathe feels flimsy (and moves a bit) no matter how I adjust it.  It might just be user error, but I usually do alright with dialing in machines.

@addertooth: That lathe looks nice!  CNC mill first for me, then I'll start looking into a lathe upgrade.


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## Aaron_W (Apr 10, 2022)

Radical said:


> @Aaron_W: I think you're right about it depending on the projects.  I haven't cut many chips on either one yet, but I find that at the least, the compound slide on the mini-lathe feels flimsy (and moves a bit) no matter how I adjust it.  It might just be user error, but I usually do alright with dialing in machines.



I have used several small lathes, but not one of the 7x mini lathes. It seems like they require a fair bit of fiddling to get the slop out of them, but once they are set up people seem to like them well enough.


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## davek181 (Apr 10, 2022)

My  first and only mill, so far, is a PM-30MV, similar to the 728 you are looking at.  I knew very little when I bought it and now know just a little more, but it was a very good starting point in my opinion and I have amazed myself with what I have learned and built.  does it have limitations?  Of course it does, but with proper feeds and speeds it can get things done.  Is it accurate?  Yes, more accurate than my skill level at this time most cases.  I have found it quite adequate for what I have had to do with it and very well built in my estimation.  I don't know haw I survived this long without one.

Get the best mill you can afford and set it up to your liking over time, I think that is a never ending story though.


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