# Remove Carrage from Clausing 1957 (I believe Master) 13 x 36 Engine Lathe?



## dansawyer (Jul 27, 2021)

The lathe is a 1957 13 X 36 Engine lathe. I am trying to remove the carrage so as to inspect the apron. I have removed the 4 allen bolts holding the apron to the carrage, the rear gib, and the locking gib. The carrage is still firmly fixed to the bed; it appears to be free of the apron. 
The parts list shows a front gib. Does anyone have experience locating and removing this gib? 
(This only place I can speculate it could be is nearly imposible to get to without removing the lead screw and then the apron. That would multiply the job by an order of magnitude.) 
Thanks in advance, Dan


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## jwmay (Jul 27, 2021)

This is the best I can do for this. I am curious if you've found something that makes you think it's necessary. Surely it's not that poor finish you were asking about?


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## dansawyer (Jul 27, 2021)

jwmay said:


> This is the best I can do for this. I am curious if you've found something that makes you think it's necessary. Surely it's not that poor finish you were asking about?


The control arm parts in the apron are very loose. I don't believe the banding is a spindle issue. The only thing with a period similar to the banding is the rotation of the feed rod. That was enough of a connection to try to inspect the apron. However as the video shows removing the apron requires removing the lead screw. That is a bit more than I want to tackle at the moment. 
If I use a slow manual feed the finish is acceptable. I plan to use power feed for the rough work and then manual feed for the finish. That will work for the current project. 
Thanks for the post.


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## jwmay (Jul 27, 2021)

I don't believe it's a spindle issue either. I don't think its an apron issue either.  But you are the one standing in front of it.  Nobody will know as well as you.  I do hope you've tried a more traditional grind toolbit. The one you are using doesn't  look like it would work for anything that I do.


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## Nutfarmer (Jul 27, 2021)

On my 6300 Clausing the carriage will slide off the end of the bed with just removing the lead screw support bracket while leaving the lead screw in place.


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## dansawyer (Jul 28, 2021)

jwmay said:


> I don't believe it's a spindle issue either. I don't think its an apron issue either.  But you are the one standing in front of it.  Nobody will know as well as you.  I do hope you've tried a more traditional grind toolbit. The one you are using doesn't  look like it would work for anything that I do.


The feed rod is slightly bent, when it rotates it causes the auto feed mechanism in the apron to noticeably move, affecting alignment. This eithor changes the feed rate enough to cause the banding or it actually causes the carrage alignment to change. (this would seem to be unlikely except that the near side gib is not a precision fit. all that would have to happen is for the rod to cause the carrage to move on the 45 degree way.)
I will only use carrage feed to rough the part and then finish with manual feed. The final step is to cut an acme thread, that will not use the feed rod.
(I will check the lead screw for straightness before this step)


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## jwmay (Jul 28, 2021)

Like I say, you will know better than me. I'm no master of machine tools myself. But it's a strangely unique problem insofar as the reading I've done would indicate. I hope you're right, and keep us updated. You never know when your findings may help someone else down the road.


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## dansawyer (Jul 28, 2021)

Well, there is nothing truely new under the sun:








						Cut Depth Affected By Feed Rod Rotation?
					

I'm playing with the PM1228VF lathe now that I have a few hours free (my measuring devices haven't arrived just yet, so mostly just making a mess and checking everything for basic function & familiarity).  I have noticed a very strange, persistent behavior of the cutter that I haven't heard...




					www.hobby-machinist.com
				



This describes exactly what is happening:
"When turning, whether manually or with the lead screw, a momentary stop in lateral motion will produce a "ring" similar to what you describe.   This happens because the tool makes a "spring cut" at that point, cutting very slightly deeper. " 
Well, now to straighten the feed rod. (I hope the lead screw is straight.)


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## jwmay (Jul 29, 2021)

That thread kinda fell off without ever coming to a conclusion.  But the quoted message does support your hypothesis.  It looks like he found several manufacturing defects before he stopped posting entirely.  His feed rod wasn't bent, but the bearing journals were off axis, the spindle nose was not perfectly perpendicular to the ways, he could "feel" a binding gear in the gear train, and his carriage gibs were loose.  
The main thing that makes it seem your onto something is that manually feeding makes the problem go away. It appears as if there has to be something wrong with the feed.  Hopefully you will find it with minimal disassembly.  I don't think I'd want the job. I was amazed by all the pieces and parts in there watching that video.  Let us know how it goes!


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## dansawyer (Jul 31, 2021)

Quick update: The feed rod does have a small bend, 1/8 inch run out. However what appears to be a larger issue is the mechanism that connects to the feed rod is very loose. The first observation is a bushing may be missing that would maintain alignment between the mechanism and the rod. I do not have a parts list for the model I have, the closest description is a MK1.
(edit) Sept 19, 2021 - I was trying to cut shallow threads in aluminum and noticed when the tool hit a heavier spot the feed would hang momentarily. This resulted in a 'jump' or skip in the feed. I believe this is due to a shift in the power takeoff mechanism. My conclusion is there is actually something missing or broken in the drive feed. Once I get through the current project I will have to schedula a significant refirb of the apron. It is not trust worthy in its current condition. 
Another point, as an experiment I was taking an agressive test cut with a new tool holder. When under heavier pressure the mechanism seems to work well. The heavy cut was clean and smooth. The issues are occuring in the transition between light and heavy. There is play that allows the carrage drive to vary as the mechanism moves from light to heavy. Dan


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## jwmay (Aug 31, 2021)

What ended up being the resolution?


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## dansawyer (Aug 31, 2021)

jwmay said:


> What ended up being the resolution?


It has been shelved for the moment. I do not want to take the lathe off line at the moment. There is definitley an issue with the apron drive mechanism. The feed rod is both bent and appears to be missing alignment bushings.


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## jwmay (Sep 1, 2021)

But isn't this the same machine that had a mystery shudder In the headstock every third revolution or something? And some problem in the carriage? And left weird marks in the work? And is now turning a .005" taper over 4 inches?  My memory isn't that great, which is why I ask. With all these mysterious and unresolved problems stacking up, I wonder if there's a good way to solve them. Generally we try to eliminate the variables as they are identified, in order to narrow in on the root cause. But the list of variables here is only getting longer.


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## dansawyer (Sep 2, 2021)

jwmay said:


> But isn't this the same machine that had a mystery shudder In the headstock every third revolution or something? And some problem in the carriage? And left weird marks in the work? And is now turning a .005" taper over 4 inches?  My memory isn't that great, which is why I ask. With all these mysterious and unresolved problems stacking up, I wonder if there's a good way to solve them. Generally we try to eliminate the variables as they are identified, in order to narrow in on the root cause. But the list of variables here is only getting longer.


By chance when I was doing this I used a new tool with a carbide insert; the insert had a slightly rounded end. That tool made a very clean cut. I experimented with a couple of depths, it did a really job at 10 thou. 
The oscilation is still there depending on speed. I believe it is due to either the collet closer or a chuck that is out of balance. The machine is consistantly smooth with no load, no collet closer or no chuck. 
The carrage problem persists. This model has selects between long feed and cross feed by sliding a single lever along the feed rod. That mechanism is worn and may be missing a bushing. The feed rod is also shightly bent. This is the project I am delaying.


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