# Help for a newbie looking for measuring tools?



## Mauser lover (May 8, 2018)

Hello, total newbie here, just so you know. 

I recently acquired an Asian lathe of basically unknown manufacture. The time has come to begin amassing measuring tools. 

Everything I've done before has been done with a cheap (maybe better than Hazard Fraught, but unknown because it was given to me in an unmarked box) dial indicator. If it needed that. I have a couple of rulers graduated in 64ths too... 

Anyway... I was looking at FleeBay and saw some "vintage" and "antique" machinist measuring tools (levels, micrometers, etc.) and was wondering if they were worth a shot. Is a machinist level from 85 years ago going to be so out of whack that I can't use it? What about squares, micrometers, dial calipers, and dial indicators? 

Just trying to be a successful cheapskate, and not just a cheapskate! Thanks for the help!

And mods, if this is in the wrong spot, please move it. Thanks!


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## Moderatemixed (May 8, 2018)

I started this hobby 4 years ago. I decided that I would only buy Starrett, arguably the best manufacturer of measuring tools. I canvassed eBay having found a Starrett Catalogue from the 30’s at a flea market looking for measuring and setup tools. I, by my own admission “went overboard” and spent 2 years equipping myself. That said I am exclusively Starrett and am “completely set”. Having leaned from my past experiences, if you buy cheap, you’ll buy twice. eBay (particularly in July and August) will present you with everything that you will need at the lowest prices; fewer people buying. If you wait until March/April, you will typically pay twice as much for the same items. Make a list of what you think you’ll need. Check KBC tools or Starrett, Brown and Sharpe, or Moore and Wright, for their “apprentice” sets to give you a “list” of the first tools you’ll need. Then go to eBay and begin..... and yes the Starrett tools from 85 years ago are still accurate; which should tell you something about buying good tools in my opinion. Good luck, Cheers. 


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## vocatexas (May 8, 2018)

I've picked up a lot of very nice Starrett, Brown and Sharpe, Lufkin, Craftsman, etc. micrometers, dial indicators, and other measuring tools at estate sales, flea markets, and pawn shops. I've also been lucky enough to buy all the tools one machinist had when he retired. Keep your eyes open and watch for deals. I recently bought an un-used still in the box Starrett planer and shaper height gauge at an auction for $25. Nobody knew what it was and it's over $500 new. At the same auction I got a Wilson bullet 4 1/2 inch vise mounted on a small metal table for $50. Nobody wanted to pay more for 'an old vise'. New it goes for over $600 and there was absolutely nothing wrong with it.

Deals are out there, you just have to watch for them. I'm lucky in one way-where I live there is very little interest in machine tools and machining. Bad thing is there are very few machine tools to be had.


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## BtoVin83 (May 8, 2018)

There are three brands worth  looking at, Mitutoyo, Mitutoyo and Mitutoyo


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## Moderatemixed (May 8, 2018)

Mitutoyo, yup...... they made a nice tool once. Not sure where it is now though. LOL. Just kidding. If you buy digital, go Mitutoyo. I (as I said above) went all Starrett and the digital callipers and micrometers I purchased (5-10 years old) are lousy. Indicators by Starrett are awesome though. 


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## JPigg55 (May 8, 2018)

Some to consider would be iGaging measuring tools. Basically Mitutoyo clones, but much cheaper. http://www.igagingstore.com/?Click=7
Another option is to keep an eye out for local auctions. Most auction services have websites anymore. I keep an eye on many in my local area and have gotten great deals on many things like micrometers, machinist level, thread gages, and dial indicators. Not a quick option, but a good money saving  one.
Keep an eye out for auction sale bills and get the web addresses. Save them to your favorites and check out their listing once in a while.
Here in Illinois, there's also sited like these: http://illinoisauctioneers.org/ and http://www.biddersandbuyers.com/. These sited list upcoming auctions for multiple auctioneers and are searchable.


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## mikey (May 8, 2018)

Mauser lover, welcome to HM.

I highly encourage you to look at the information you can find here: http://www.longislandindicator.co/ Hands down, the most useful source of information on instruments for the shop. You will find accurate information on the different kinds of tools as well as which brands are the best.

No offense meant to the other guys but certain brands or makers excel in different areas. For example:

The finest dial caliper is made by Etalon, while the best digital calipers are arguably made by Mitutoyo. 
The finest dial and dial test indicators are made by the Swiss (Compac, Interapid, Tesa, Browne & Sharpe) and Germans; Mitutoyo, Starrett and others are okay. 
The best micrometers are again made by the Swiss (Etalon, Tesa, Browne & Sharpe) and the Germans (I like Helios); Mitutoyo makes really good digital ones, while all the other makers come after them, including Starrett of new and old.
Solid squares, the right angle machinist's squares, are made by many makers but the most accurate are made by Tesa.
The best usable graduated rules are made by Starrett; their satin chrome scales seem to last forever and are laser etched for accuracy and longevity.
These are the tools you will use the most. There are thousands of others to buy but spend money on good basic tools. I would also suggest you buy what you need. Forget the planer gauges and buy a good dial caliper. Forget the vernier protractors and get a really good dial test indicator. If you happen to need a protractor, then buy a good one. 

Small hand tools, like small bore gauges and telescoping gauges or the calipers that rely on "feel" are made by the older tool making companies, Starrett being one of the finest.

Be aware that many companies are outsourcing their tool lines to Asia. Starrett, Browne & Sharpe, Fowler, and even Tesa have lower line tools made in China. Mitutoyo outsources to Brazil. It pays to research the country of origin before paying premium prices. 

The cheapest tools tend to be the top tier tools. They last longer, retain their accuracy over time and can be repaired when needed. Cheaper tools may be okay for a time but eventually their accuracy wanes and they cannot be fixed. 

Almost every tool we normally use has a sort of standard. Aloris/Dorian quick change tool posts, Albrecht keyless chucks, Jacobs USA-made Super Chucks, Criterion boring heads, etc. Your job is going to be identifying these tools and then finding them for a killer price on ebay. They are out there.


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## Moderatemixed (May 8, 2018)

Mickey, you nailed it..... I have some Etalon, (Calliper and Dial Indicator respectively). Swiss made and AMAZING. I purchased them in a “box at an auction” for a song, but they are hands down, best in field. 


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## Nogoingback (May 9, 2018)

Mauser lover, there's lots of good advice here.  An alternative to ebay is Ideal Precision ( shop.idealprec.com).  They sell
second hand reconditioned tools at good prices, and they have lots to choose from.  They only occasionally carry the Swiss tools, but have lots of Mitutoyo and Starrett to choose from. 

I agree with mikey that the Swiss brands are great. But if your budget is tight or you want to just get started,  Mitutoyo
makes good  tools and second hand prices are quite reasonable.  You can put together a nice collection of tools for very little $$$ if you shop carefully.  I also recommend Craigslist.  I've seen very good deals on CL for tools, and of course you can actually look at them before you buy.


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## Mauser lover (May 9, 2018)

Ha! Craigslist! While I've gotten some good deals on Craigslist in the past... Too many "traders" for good deals in my area now on specialized stuff. However, it seems that whenever I visit other states, I end up finding something and coming home with it... Although I do keep my eyeballs peeled (metaphorically). 

Thanks for the responses all, I'll be shopping on fleEbay for stuff... as well as looking at the other sites listed. And of course Hazard Fraught, because sometimes you need a tool RIGHT NOW that will probably work.... at least once... and get close enough. 

It's good to know that even the really old stuff still works, because it seems like the really old stuff is often the cheapest on FleaBay right now.


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## David S (May 9, 2018)

I may have missed it here, but if you are buying used instruments, it is also helpful to have a few "standards" so that you can verify accuracy at various places throughout its range.

David


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## C-Bag (May 19, 2018)

mikey said:


> Mauser lover, welcome to HM.
> 
> I highly encourage you to look at the information you can find here: http://www.longislandindicator.co/ Hands down, the most useful source of information on instruments for the shop. You will find accurate information on the different kinds of tools as well as which brands are the best.
> 
> ...



Thanks so much for this kind of condensed info Mikey. It does make me cringe that I didn't know the name Etalon when I ran across a dial caliper by that name. I took my standards with me and it was off so I passed. But I now understand they can maybe be fixed? I also got a .0001 Alina test indicator in a box of Starrett dial indicators and a semi broken Brown & Sharpe 1-2" mechanical digital mic for $25. It was through another thread like this I found out what I had. The B&S needs some part to function properly.


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## Bob Korves (May 19, 2018)

Mikey nailed it.  Listen carefully...


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## mikey (May 19, 2018)

C-Bag said:


> Thanks so much for this kind of condensed info Mikey. It does make me cringe that I didn't know the name Etalon when I ran across a dial caliper by that name. I took my standards with me and it was off so I passed. But I now understand they can maybe be fixed? I also got a .0001 Alina test indicator in a box of Starrett dial indicators and a semi broken Brown & Sharpe 1-2" mechanical digital mic for $25. It was through another thread like this I found out what I had. The B&S needs some part to function properly.



You're welcome, C-bag. It pays to do your homework, brother.


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## C-Bag (May 19, 2018)

mikey said:


> You're welcome, C-bag. It pays to do your homework, brother.



Most definitely, but I've gotten more from theses kinds of threads than the site you mentioned. And every area CL is different. Here I can't touch Mitutyo where I can find all kinds of deals on Brown & Sharpe, even Starrett and like mentioned Tesa, Alina and other Swiss made stuff. For whatever reason I see Mitutyo for basically new prices. So having info on all the "high end" Swiss stuff earlier would have been amazing. And for the record, I read the dial and saw "Swiss made" but it just didn't register.


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## Mauser lover (May 23, 2018)

David S said:


> I may have missed it here, but if you are buying used instruments, it is also helpful to have a few "standards" so that you can verify accuracy at various places throughout its range.
> 
> David



Okay... I understand the concept, but I'm wondering what kind of product is referenced here. What am I supposed to get for calibrating this sort of thing?


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## Alan H. (May 23, 2018)

As many have already alluded - "BUY ONCE" if you can.  Get the best quality you can afford up front. 

My personal experience has found ebay to be 50/50 on measuring instruments.   Meaning that half the time there's something wrong with them and they'll need repair.  Some are not reapairable or simply not worth the cost to have them repaired.  Repairs are not cheap.

Everyone has their favorites.  I am personally a fan of TESA made indicators and Mitutoyo digital mics and calipers.  I have various manual micrometers including Etalon, Mitutoyo, and Fowler.

The reference to Standards above can mean Gage Blocks and or Micrometer Standards.  Most manual micrometer sets come with standards included with them.   BTW, more expense here as well.  Gage Blocks and Standards can run the spectrum in terms of costs.   Sets cost the most of course or you can buy them individually for the size you need.  Starting out you may want a micrometer set that has them included.


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## David S (May 23, 2018)

Thanks Alan for the standards reply.  I think is always good to have some standards on hand especially if one is purchasing used metrology stuff.

David


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## mikey (May 23, 2018)

It is wise to keep in mind that your checking standard for whatever you're using has to be at least 4 times as accurate as the instrument you're checking. For a micrometer, this means a gauge block traceable to NIST. If you use the bar-type micrometer standard then you need to check its accuracy against a known gauge block so you know what it measures. 

Many guys just check a mic to see if it repeats to zero but you really need to check it at about 5 points throughout its range with a gauge block before you can call it accurate. And yeah, I know we're just hobby guys but accuracy is accuracy. If you prefer not to use a verified accurate instrument then at least use the same instrument throughout your project so that the degree of error is consistent .


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## benmychree (May 23, 2018)

mikey said:


> It is wise to keep in mind that your checking standard for whatever you're using has to be at least 4 times as accurate as the instrument you're checking. For a micrometer, this means a gauge block traceable to NIST. If you use the bar-type micrometer standard then you need to check its accuracy against a known gauge block so you know what it measures.
> 
> Many guys just check a mic to see if it repeats to zero but you really need to check it at about 5 points throughout its range with a gauge block before you can call it accurate. And yeah, I know we're just hobby guys but accuracy is accuracy. If you prefer not to use a verified accurate instrument then at least use the same instrument throughout your project so that the degree of error is consistent .


I would agree with the statement made in this last paragraph regarding the degree of error needing to be consistent; the main requirement of most of our work is THE FIT, not the absolute size / dimension.  I have been using the same Starrett 0-1 micrometer since I bought it about 1962, and have never had any problem with it in daily work; if I did have a particularly close dimension to measure, I might set up gage blocks to confirm the mike's display (a very rare occurrence --------


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## C-Bag (May 23, 2018)

So this brings up a problem I've been contemplating for a while. What would you guys say is the best way to get into gage blocks? How many pieces? It would seem there are different grades and different ways they define the grades. If say a Shars set has a NIST tag but is B or 2 is that good enough or what? I've been cruising eBay for a while and a search for gage block sets is pretty confusing. What's the difference between a jo block and other blocks?


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## Mauser lover (May 23, 2018)

C-Bag said:


> So this brings up a problem I've been contemplating for a while. What would you guys say is the best way to get into gage blocks? How many pieces? It would seem there are different grades and different ways they define the grades. If say a Shars set has a NIST tag but is B or 2 is that good enough or what? I've been cruising eBay for a while and a search for gage block sets is pretty confusing. What's the difference between a jo block and other blocks?



Fantastic questions! Unfortunately... I don't even know enough yet to ask these questions! On the bright side... I won't be bidding against you anytime soon on these gauge blocks...


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## tcarrington (May 23, 2018)

On the other hand....If you are doing this for a living then buying the best is definitely the way to go and all the above makes perfect sense. If you are hobbying around like I do, maybe a little lesser would be adequate. I have Mits which I use along side some clones and much less expensive calipers and micrometers. If the absolute value of the measurement is very important I will check twice and make sure my technique is the noise in the measurement. With proper care and use the imports can be adequate for a home hobbyist. 
I have been able to make perfect cubes (+/-0.0005 inch) using some less than perfect equipment. My recommendation is either buy the best from ebay used, or buy good clones from Shars or iGaging and similar companies.


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## benmychree (May 23, 2018)

C-Bag said:


> So this brings up a problem I've been contemplating for a while. What would you guys say is the best way to get into gage blocks? How many pieces? It would seem there are different grades and different ways they define the grades. If say a Shars set has a NIST tag but is B or 2 is that good enough or what? I've been cruising eBay for a while and a search for gage block sets is pretty confusing. What's the difference between a jo block and other blocks?


There are two types of gage blocks, the rectangular Jo blocks, and the less common square Hoke blocks; both types have their advantages and disadvantages; the Jo blocks may fit into spaces provided in some fixtures such as sine fixtures that Hoke blocks will not fit into, Hoke blocks have the advantage of being held together by a screw device through an axial hole in their center that is countersunk for a flat head screw.  In that way, tall stacks of blocks may be made up easily without the tendency to fall apart, and all the accessories are held on in that manner.  There are clamp devices for Jo blocks as well, but the Hoke setup seems easier to deal with.  Of course, the Jo blocks were named for C.E. Johanssen, and the Hoke blocks were designed by Colonel Hoke of the U.S. Army, in charge of war production quality control during world war one.
I see 86 piece sets of Jo blocks on e bay (used) for around $250; who knows how they would calibrate, but how good do they need to be for hobby work?  I have both types with accessories, but very rarely use them.


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## C-Bag (May 23, 2018)

benmychree said:


> There are two types of gage blocks, the rectangular Jo blocks, and the less common square Hoke blocks; both types have their advantages and disadvantages; the Jo blocks may fit into spaces provided in some fixtures such as sine fixtures that Hoke blocks will not fit into, Hoke blocks have the advantage of being held together by a screw device through an axial hole in their center that is countersunk for a flat head screw.  In that way, tall stacks of blocks may be made up easily without the tendency to fall apart, and all the accessories are held on in that manner.  There are clamp devices for Jo blocks as well, but the Hoke setup seems easier to deal with.  Of course, the Jo blocks were named for C.E. Johanssen, and the Hoke blocks were designed by Colonel Hoke of the U.S. Army, in charge of war production quality control during world war one.
> I see 86 piece sets of Jo blocks on e bay (used) for around $250; who knows how they would calibrate, but how good do they need to be for hobby work?  I have both types with accessories, but very rarely use them.



THAT is what I'm talking about. Thanks John. Sure you hi timers know who Jo and Hoke are but not a noob. This really helps. And yes, this isn't something I might use everyday but like most of this stuff when I need it, it is more than handy. But of course I have to know what I'd need it for and there has been stuff on Utoob with several of the guys I subscribe to that have used them for stuff I'd want to do. So it's not just random TAS.


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## benmychree (May 23, 2018)

I was able to come by my gage blocks for reasonable money, the Jo blocks were made , or I should say sold by Do All, and were brand new when they came my way from a repair ship; the Hoke blocks were from a local estate sale of a college machine shop class instructor.  I picked up the accessory kits from E Bay.  I did not say in my earlier post that it was Henry Ford who pretty much brought precision gages to the USA, in the form of the Jo blocks; I have a couple of them that actually have the familiar Ford script etched on them.


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## MarkM (May 23, 2018)

Mitutoyo made in Japan.  Plenty of calipers and my go to here comes the inspector caliper is my eight inch beam scale Mitutoyo.  Only problem is my eyes aren t like they used to be.  Still it s what I trust even over the digital Mitutoyo.


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## kd4gij (May 23, 2018)

I have this mic from will you guessed it HF. When I got it I was working in a ISO900 shop and it was check every 6 months in the calibration lab.
Just take the battery out when not in use all the time. Same mic is sold by igaging and fowler
https://www.harborfreight.com/digital-micrometer-68305.html


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## warrjon (Jun 29, 2018)

Before I retired I worked in a Military/Commercial calibration laboratory as a repair tech. I was autorised to calibrate among other things pressure and IR/Insertion temperature devices so I was in the physical lab from time to time and the military had all Mitutoyo digital calipers, guess what 90% of these failed calibration and a lot failed straight out of the box brand new. They passed absolute accuracy and failed parallelism.

I bought Moore & Wright digital calipers. I do have some Starrett but the stuff I inherited from my father (who was a tool and die maker) is mostly Moore & Wright and Brown & Sharpe.

I think for a home shop any good quality tools will last you a life time. 

My 25mm mic is Moore & Wright and and the larger ones Tessa, I love the Tessa mics repeatability is better than my eyes these days.

I bought a couple of 875/1 squares off eBay as I ony had reference squares and I didn't want to be using these on a daily basis. The 50mm one was way out of tolerance. So as you this hobby (illness) takes off a surface plate and a couple of reference tools are a good investment.


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## Mauser lover (Jun 30, 2018)

warrjon said:


> I bought a couple of 875/1 squares off eBay as I ony had reference squares and I didn't want to be using these on a daily basis. The 50mm one was way out of tolerance. So as you this hobby (illness) takes off a surface plate and a couple of reference tools are a good investment.



Can you tell me what you got? I'm looking at a Kinex (I think it is an 875/0 rated one); but I don't have a reference square yet, so that one would be it. If it is "way out of tolerance" it won't do me any good, and I won't be able to tell (well, unless it is further away from square than a Johnson speed square... which is unlikely!).


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## warrjon (Jun 30, 2018)

My 875/0 square is an Inox, best thing to do when you buy a reference square is send it for calibration then you know you have a good reference device. Rub it with a Lanolin substance to prevent it rusting and put it in a box. Now I only this for checking other squares, it does not see machine duty.


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## warrjon (Jul 9, 2018)

My 875/0 square is an Inox, IIRC it was about $150.00 and having it calibrated is worth the extra $50, then you know you have a good bit of reference equipment.


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## Bi11Hudson (Jul 9, 2018)

A comment here from a (retired) maintenance man might help a noob getting started. The maintenance man is looking to get it (the target machine) back to running. Absolute accuracy is secondary. I usually didn't have the drawings anyway. When I make a (singular) part, it is to fit the machine as worn in. It might be three months wear, it could be thirty years wear. *To Fit* is the primary target.here. As such, the *accuracy*(absolute) of a measuring instrument is not so important. The *precision*(repeatability), on the other hand, is. Highly so. 

A caveat here; Most of my professional background was in electrical and electronics. Two decidedly different crafts there. But precision is precision, whatever the craft. BTW, my calibrations were long before computers. And my calibration standards were a factor of ten, usually NBS tracable. The Cal Lab I used was *one* generation removed from the NBS. When I had to make a mechanical part, it usually had the same accuracy as the electrical parts had. A much too tight tolerance. But that's how I was used to thinking.

I realize that professionally I don't fit in well here. But in my day, *basic* knowledge of machinist's skill was a part of my profession. Building from scratch a D'Arsenval meter movement was as precise as that of a machinist.

Bill Hudson​


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## warrjon (Jul 10, 2018)

My last full time job was in the repair centre of NATA accredited calibration lab. I was also authorized to perform calibration on pressure, temperature, RF and anything electronic. I totally agree with your precision (repeatability) over accuracy. 

We had a couple of standards that were out of tolerance for absolute accuracy (due to drift over time) but we did not adjust them as we had 15 years of data and knew exactly what the drift was, so we could easily correct for the absolute accuracy, where as you could not correct for repeatability.


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## C-Bag (Jul 10, 2018)

warrjon said:


> so we could easily correct for the absolute accuracy, where as you could not correct for repeatability.



While I noted that in what Bill said, this is a very curious statement to me. I never would have thought accuracy and repeatability to be somehow separate. When Bill mentioned it I put it in the old memory banks as something that might become clear at some further point. But with the agreement by warrjon I guess if someone would care to elaborate I would think it a worthwhile addition to my and possibly others understanding.


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## RandyM (Jul 10, 2018)

What are the differences between accuracy and precision?

*In* other words, *accuracy* describes the *difference between* the measurement and the part's actual value, while *precision* describes the variation you see when you measure the same part repeatedly with the same device.


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## SSage (Jul 10, 2018)

I need repeatability, most of the parts I make are fitted to another part or 7 etc. I use pin gauges instead of a dial caliber to determine actual hole sizes, they are consistent and give me a good base line always. Brown and Sharpe depth gauges work for me, bought used on eBay. But any decent brand of older tools is fine from my experience.

I have not liked the Asian machinist levels from Shars though, I prefer the Sterrett levels myself. But, you don't need anything super expensive for a hobby lathe IMO. I know guys who produce fine things on old worn out machines without any fancy levels. You gotta get your machine cutting straight regardless of level.

I have Harbor Freight measuring devices and most of the name brands. My sterrett and my HF micrometers actually read the same down to .001 to .0005. I have one HF micrometer that is a "premium version" and it woks good. The HF dial calibers are too cheaply made for me, I have tried them a couple times lately and they were not durable, not smooth. The QC is not there. The electronic ones fell apart and ate batteries.

I like the Shars better for a budget dial caliber, like this one, its cheap but not junk IMO: https://www.ebay.com/itm/SHARS-6-00...610458?hash=item45ff75241a:g:howAAOSwCHBbBDyZ

But, you just need what you actually are going to use, most of my measuring tools go unused for months. Then I have the ones I use almost daily. And you need the measuring tools for daily quick use around coolant and oil and the tools for fine clean work that you take perfect care of. I dropped a dial caliber a few months ago almost full open, bent it bad. Thankfully it was a $30 no name type. Replaced it with the Shars Premium one, haven't dropped that one yet.


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## warrjon (Jul 11, 2018)

To give you an example.

I calibrated a lot of Fluke 65F's for defense, the calibration standard used was a Raytek MX4 which was calibrated by NMI (National Measurement Institute), the Raytek was IIRC about 3°C high at 100°C  but its repeatability (precision) was always within 0.5°C which is about 1/2 its tolerance. So we knew if the Raytek read 103.5° the actual Blackbody temperature was 100.5°C ±0.5°C uncertainty, this uncertainty is better than the specification of the Raytek because we had years of empirical data.

Now if the absolute accuracy was 100.0°C (remember in calibration this accuracy is to put it simply the mean of multiple measurements). But the precision (repeatability) was ±3.0°C then the uncertainty would be somewhat greater than 3.0°C and the instrument would unsuitable for a reference standard.

Any measuring instrument repeatability is by far the most important spec.


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