# G0509g 16x40 Drool Thread



## coolidge

Gunrunner you need to order a set of these for the Z axis hand crank. Bill did you just spit coffee on your monitor? :rofl:

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## tmarks11

Significant step up from the usual 12x36 (and their almost copycat "big" brothers the 13x40 and 14x40 crowd).

The one dimension that nobody seems to talk about is Bed Width.  The bed on this is 10" wide (vs the 7" found on most 12x36, 13x40 and 14x40).  That translates into a lot more rigidity.  This thing weighs twice what the smaller lathes weigh.

Been to the show room to check it out?  They look pretty decent.  I was really tempted, but settled instead for a G0709 (and spent some of the money I saved on a Tormach).

If you already have a Bison Set-Tru chuck, you could just buy a D1-6 backing plate to adapt it to this machine.

Just one note: it helps to place this machine where you have access behind it, as it is easier to clean out the chip collection area from the back than from the front.


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## coolidge

Gunrunner you need to order a set of these for the Z axis hand crank. Bill did you just spit coffee on your monitor? :rofl:

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## Doubleeboy

Be aware that the G0670 will require a rotary phase converter.  The Yasakawa VFD that is installed is not oversized enough to sucessfully run on single phase from what I can tell and have learned from talking with Yasakawa technical help.  Nice looking lathe and made in Taiwan.  I have been planning on buying one, but have not pulled the trigger yet.

cheers
michael


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## tmarks11

coolidge said:


> but I think it would be a good idea for me to drive up to their Bellingham, WA showroom....Yes one reason I'm considering this lathe is the 13x40 and 14x40 just seem to be stretched versions of the 12x36. ....Not an apples to apples comparison but then there is the made in Taiwan G0670 variable speed with built in VFD on sale for $13,495...



Fortunately, I travel to Vancouver Island, BC via Bellingham at least once a month on business, so get a chance to stop and drool frequently.  Picked up my G0709 on the way back last year (my wife was surprised). I wish the Bellingham showroom were as big as the ones back East.

The typical 13x40/14x40 really are not a significant improvement over the venerable 12x36.  Sure, they (sometimes) give you a better QCGB, but the extra 0.5-1" of height on the spindle cost almost nothing to manufacture, and since the machine is not any beefier, you are actually compromising rigidity.  And extra 4" length? hmm....

Yeah I drooled over the G0670.  Pretty nice.

As long as we are talking about nice machines, talk a look at the Precision Matthews PM1440TS.  This is a machine that Matt does not advertise on his website, but a number of customers have raved about it.  These sell for $8000 or $9000 (variable speed), and have a 9" wide bed. Made in Taiwan.




He also sells the RML1440, which is the same as the two you picked from Grizzly. For about $1k cheaper.



coolidge said:


> What hurts is I just purchased the Aloris BXA tool post and a bunch tool holders.



So what you are saying is you have a brand new Aloris to unload... hmm, I could trade you my Authentic Genuine Grizzly Piston Type BXA toolpost (those don't grow on trees you know) and a few bucks....  my Grizzly BXA is WAY better than the one you got stock with you G4003G.  Way better...

Every time Enco has had a coupon 20-25% off, I have put that Aloris in the shopping cart, looked at the savings.... and then moved on.  One of these days.  I keep waiting for the planets to align, with the Aloris on-sale at the same time a 20% off + free shipping comes out.

[Walks away to go check the Enco March hot deals catalog...] DOGONE IT! Coolidge, now you got me doing that...


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## coolidge

A Grizzly piston BXA hmmm let me just think about that for a moment... I think I'll go Dorian CXA if I get the G0509G, Grizzly has good prices on them.

I just showed my brother the G0509G, he almost purchased one of these marketed under another brand a few years ago, he thought it was decent. Keep in mind he's a Mori guy, he and his partners just purchased a $200k Mori. Just a 6 position live tooling head that came in today cost them $8k dah-umm.


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## coolidge

Gunrunner you need to order a set of these for the Z axis hand crank. Bill did you just spit coffee on your monitor? :rofl:

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## wrmiller

If I had the wherewithal to be shopping at this price point, I'd probably be inclined to hire a rigging company and get it done right. But then I'll likely never have to solve that problem.


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## marrtw

I've considered the 509 many times and don't pull the trigger due to the 3 phase.  I hate the idea (and cost) of adding a phase converter.


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## Doubleeboy

tmarks11 said:


> He also sells the RML1440, which is the same as the two you picked from Grizzly. For about $1k cheaper.



Hard to compare the RML 1440 to the Griz G0670, the grizzly has variable speed, fully tooled and constant surface speed on the crossfeed.  That and with Grizzlys shipping makes it over a thousand less than the RML.  The grizzly does have a 4 side toolpost that would need to be put on the shelf for something usable though.  The G0670 is also a 16" lathe and has triple spindle bearings.  I am not sure the 1440 RML has triple bearings on spindle.   I was never able to get a copy of the manual or specs on machine.   I did get a price and the Griz was a better deal even with having to build a rotary converter, and its usually in stock, not so with the RML, 2-3 month wait was what I was quoted.

For that kind of money a used Mori or Webb looks attractive, except a 17" lathe at 5000 lbs is a bit more than I care to deal with on a concrete floor of unknown provenience.   My only concerns with the G0509g are the skinny little headstock which looks a bit miniature for a 16" machine,  and the fact that it is made in China and likely has Chinese motor and electronics, which would be a big concern for me.

its always a tough call buying a new machine, unless the proverbial deal of a lifetime drops in your lap.

michael


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## wrmiller

When I was talking to Matt about a RML it had 3 spindle bearings and CSS. Has that now changed?


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## darkzero

I agree with Doubleeboy, for that price I'd rather go with a used Mori or Webb/Wacheon. I did briefly look at the PM1640 which has more appeal to me than the Grizzly but I'm not ready to buy a new lathe so I won't bother to call for more details.

I'd also be concerned about having a lathe that size sitting on my home garage concrete floor (well around here anyway). That's also not something you can move around with simply an engine hoist.

I must say, I envy you guys buying all these new machines so frequently. Seems like some of you guys have had 2-3 lathes & mills in the time I've had my current machines. I admit, I'd like to upgrade too but none of the current 14x lathes have much appeal to me over my PM1236 so I'll wait. My current lathe is only 5 yrs old which is still new to me. I've also haven't really ran into something where I needed such a larger lathe in my home shop. Although I'd like one, I doubt I'll ever get a 16x unless I turn away from hobby machining. Just the chucks alone are heavier than I would want to handle as I swap out chucks often. In the meantime, I'll just enjoy you guys getting all the new toys so don't forget the pics!


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## epanzella

Gunrunner you need to order a set of these for the Z axis hand crank. Bill did you just spit coffee on your monitor? :rofl:

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## darkzero

epanzella said:


> Are you sure your G4003G has a D1-6 mount? Mine has a D1-5.



The D1-6 backplate they were talking about would be for the G0509G so he could still use the chuck he recently purchased for his G4003G.


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## epanzella

darkzero said:


> The D1-6 backplate they were talking about would be for the G0509G so he could still use the chuck he recently purchased for his G4003G.


So he's talking about saving the chuck from the 4003 not the mount. I misread it, my bad.


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## darkzero

epanzella said:


> So he's talking about saving the chuck from the 4003 not the mount. I misread it, my bad.



Yeah, coolidge just bought a brand new Bison 6-jaw chuck like in my avatar that was over $1K. Sucks if he would have to off load it so soon.


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## Doubleeboy

wrmiller19 said:


> When I was talking to Matt about a RML it had 3 spindle bearings and CSS. Has that now changed?



I can not speak for Matt.  I am not sure about the bearings in the 14" I do not know.  I do know that in a lot of the import lathes 16" is the cut off for triple bearings.  When he gave me a quote on VS 1440RML it was for a lightly tooled machine similarly equiped to the Kents you see on ebay.  Price was better than a Kent, but not competitive at all with the Grizzly considering the tooling included, 2" more swing, shipping of half as much and it was not quoted to me as having CSS option, nor was anyone willing to get me a copy of the manual, or parts list.  Grizzly on the other hand has the manual, and parts blow ups available online.  No one at the other place could even tell me for sure what exact threads it cut...... that is not acceptable to me, you either know the products you sell or you don't.   Like a lot of us,  I have a pretty small shop, if I had room I would get that beautiful used 50" Mori languishing in SoCal.  But a 50" lathe means my wife's car lives outside, and that would be a deal killer, plus 50" is 10 more than I need or want.   I plan to keep my EE but definitely want a longer bed lathe, man has to build at least one rifle in his life eh?   I considered for a while the PM1640HD, but in the end could not pull the trigger for something made in China for that much $. 

cheers
michael


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## mksj

I had a deposit on a demo Kent SSM-1340BV but it fell through, nice machine. The Kent TRL-1340V looks like a smaller version of the G0670, also with variable speed. Love to have one, but way out of my league and price range. Looks like the TRL are re-badged Sunmaster ERL series http://www.sunmaster-cnc.com/lathe_erl.htm


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## wrmiller

I haven't quite been in my house for two years yet (April), and I've purchased 3 lathes and 3 mills but hey, they are just toys compared to this stuff and not that expensive (well except for the last two). These are nice to talk about, but I want to see one sitting in someone's garage!


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## coolidge

Well there is a $5,500 price difference between the G0670 and G0509G. That's enough to buy a high quality motor, replace the electronics, buy a DRO, a Dorian QCTP and tool holders, and probably a rotory phase converter. ;-) Made in Taiwan does not guarantee 100% made in Taiwan. In my research I came across some supposed made in Taiwan lathe (not Grizzly) where the castings were actually made in China.

I just finished a detailed comparison of the specs on these two machines vs my G4003G...

1. The G0509G 4HP motor requires a 30 amp plug and is rated as drawing 17.45 amps full load vs the supposed more powerful G0670 5HP motor which requires only a 20 amp plug and is rated 15.7 amps at full load. Something fishy there.

2. Floor to center height arrgh the G0670 wins that one at 44.25 inches vs the G0509G at 47 inches vs the G04003G at 46.25. I was hoping for a shorter height as my G4003G is about 4 inches too tall for me. So I'll be building a work platform to stand on.

3. Number of feeds is 17 for both the 16x40's, far fewer than the G4003G's 40 feeds. But then I only use like half a dozen feeds so meh.

4. Carriage lead screw diameter is about 1.2 inches for both, vs .870 for the G4003G so beefier.

5. Carriage lead screw length is 44 inches for the G4003G vs 54 inches for the G0509G vs 61.5 inches for the G0670. I kind of expected the two 16x40's to be about the same. Best I can figure is the tailstock on the G0670 is longer requiring a longer bed to achieve the specified 40" between centers.

6. Carriage travel is only 33 inches on the G0509G a bit disappointing vs 40 inches on the G0670 so 7 inches more hmmm...

7. G0509G swing over the saddle must be a misprint, its only 9.875 that's less than the G4003G's 11+ inches and way less than the G0670's 15+ inches. I'll have to confirm.

8. Spindle length on the G0509G is 5 inches shorter than the G0670. I know shorter is better for gunsmith work but the wider G0670 is probably more stout. I did confirm the Go509G has a 3 bearing spindle, 2 tapered and 1 roller.

That's about it, no show stoppers for the G0509G though the height is annoying. Oddly the brutish G0749 with the 3 inch spindle bore, 10HP motor is only 41 inches floor to center, the lowest by far.


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## coolidge

wrmiller19 said:


> I haven't quite been in my house for two years yet (April), and I've purchased 3 lathes and 3 mills



We may have to organize an intervention for you Mr.


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## coolidge

Doubleeboy said:


> For that kind of money a used Mori or Webb looks attractive, michael



There's a Mori 12x50 for sale locally for...wait for it...$2,000 yeah then I noticed its missing half the apron. I considering Mori or one of the clones, the Hwacheon was built in Korea under license from Mori. I think their 5,000 lb heft would crack my concrete I don't think I would risk it. Honestly I also don't know enough about used lathes to know if I was buying a lemon.


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## coolidge

wrmiller19 said:


> If I had the wherewithal to be shopping at this price point, I'd probably be inclined to hire a rigging company and get it done right. But then I'll likely never have to solve that problem.



That's not a bad idea, there's a guy who advertises rigging in my local area for $500 but I think that includes hauling. If I can get a pallet jack under it to move it into position then raise it up on the leveling pads to get the pallet jack out I may just do that.


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## coolidge

darkzero said:


> I did briefly look at the PM1640



I already contacted Matt regarding that lathe, please join me in the PM forum for a discussion on that shortly.



darkzero said:


> I must say, I envy you guys buying all these new machines so frequently.



That's Bill's fault, him and his 3 mills and 3 lathes in 2 years he's a bad influence and instigator.


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## coolidge

One feature I would really like is to be able to set a stop and have the carriage travel up to that stop and stop on its own.


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## Doubleeboy

A lot of Asian machines are low to floor compared to American machines.  A lot of Chinese motors have a huge turn on surge, likely the cause of the recommended plug size, but I am only guessing.  No one in China does Mehanite castings so if lathe has M casting its going to be from Taiwan most likely.  If you can be happy with a project and Chinese electronic products are that, the money saved will be welcome.  For myself I am old enough with enough money saved that I don't want a project, I want something that works.  Lots of guys are happy with the G0509 including Papa Grizzly him self and he could buy anything he wants, but I bet his is cherried out.  Having run USA made machines has spoiled me, I could afford to take the gamble on a budget Chinese machine, but if it turns out to be crap I have to figure out a way to make it go away, i live way up a hill out in the sticks and bringing in a new toy and getting rid of the mistake is a hassle, hence why I have ruled out budget Chinese machines and 8K for a 1640 is a budget machine to be sure, not that 14K is a whole lot more, but it is more and likely gets you more, same reason all the guys are buying PM1340gt  they could spend less and get Chinese but to them its worth the extra money for the perceived value, whether its real or not.   Its all about compromises and choices.  I had a chance once, it lasted 15 minutes to buy a factory rebuilt Monarch 10ee for 15K instead of the usual 50K or so at the time.  I kick myself to this day, but I had just bought mine and the thought of having to sell it, ship a new lathe cross country and get it all past my tolerant wife was too much.  12 years later, we both agree I should have done it but I hesitated and the deal went to someone else.  So if buying a bit of project doesn't bother you and you not bothered by swapping out big heavy equipment if it turns out you don't like it, the G0509 looks pretty good on paper.  My final comment on the G0509, is that no matter how short of a headstock is attractive to a gunsmith, its still less rigid.  Never seen a quality machine in my life with a spindle that short, kind of scares me.  But then again I have seen match winning guns made on a little Rockwell that was half beat to death so its the guy in front of the machine, that matters most.

Enjoy your new toy what ever it turns out to be
michael


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## dave2176

coolidge said:


> 2. Floor to center height arrgh the G0670 wins that one at 44.25 inches vs the G0509G at 47 inches vs the G04003G at 46.25. I was hoping for a shorter height as my G4003G is about 4 inches too tall for me. So I'll be building a work platform to stand on.
> 
> 7. G0509G swing over the saddle must be a misprint, its only 9.875 that's less than the G4003G's 11+ inches and way less than the G0670's 15+ inches. I'll have to confirm.
> 
> 8. Spindle length on the G0509G is 5 inches shorter than the G0670. I know shorter is better for gunsmith work but the wider G0670 is probably more stout. I did confirm the Go509G has a 3 bearing spindle, 2 tapered and 1 roller.



I barely make 6' with boots on. I like the height. Maybe it fits the focal length of my prescription glasses better.

If I scientifically (tape measure and eyeball) measure my G4403G saddle height it is 1.25" above the top of the V ways. That means the swing over saddle is actually 9.5". The saddle on the G0509 must be 3.062" above the ways. That's beefy or mismeasured. Is there a reason to run the machine with the cross slide removed to gain the clearance to the saddle for turning? I think it is the swing over cross slide that counts for spindle turning. The swing over cross slide for the G0509 is 10". In the picture the saddle isn't higher than the cross slide. Certainly seems to be some confusion on what the measurement guy thinks a saddle is or how they measure clearance. Maybe someone measures to the bottom of the saddle and another to the top of some fictitious part. 

I like the shorter spindle length on the G4003G and probably the G0509. Works well for barrels.

I like the idea of the G0509 however.

Dave


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## wrmiller

coolidge said:


> That's Bill's fault, him and his 3 mills and 3 lathes in 2 years he's a bad influence and instigator.



But I'm down to two each. That should count for something...wait...what am I instigating?


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## coolidge

Dave - I noted the clearance over the saddle only because it stood out as an anomaly. I have found several mistakes in specs on lathes the last few days its getting a bit annoying actually. As for height at 5'7" I'm having to get up on my toes or stretch my neck around from the back of the carriage to see what I'm doing. Granted the leveling feet on my G4003G raised it up another 3 inches. Ideally I want to be able to look down from the top. Go out to your lathe, squat down 5 inches let me know what you think height wise.

Doubleeboy - In researching these made in Taiwan lathes I have come across posts confirming some are not 100% Taiwan. For one of the more expensive lathes they were getting the castings from China. Another guy had inquired about Mehanite iron and the 'M' in the casting and they just laughed, said the M was a hold over from when they copied the casting. While what you are saying may have held true once, I'm not sure if that's true today. Matt for example told me straight his PM-1640 is made in China. Yet the exact same lathe for the same price sold under a different brand is listed on ebay as made in Taiwan. I think not. Its a bit dodgy out there.


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## coolidge

wrmiller19 said:


> But I'm down to two each. That should count for something...wait...what am I instigating?



At the rate you are going in 10 years you will have purchased 15 lathes and 15 mills


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## wrmiller

Hey! the G0670 is on sale! Just trying to help...


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## tmarks11

G0670 has a pressurized oil system for the headstock.  I don't know if that makes it quieter or smoother, but it is a feature only found on expensive lathes....and on $200 briggs and Stratton motors....

Many Taiwanese lathes are copies of European and US models.  Many Chinese lathes are copies of Taiwanese lathes.  To make matters worse, many Taiwanese companies have subsidiaries in China making the same thing.  I am sure parts never accidentally get mixed up though.

Some companies even advertise the mix of machine (Chinese base on a bridgeport-style with Taiwanese head).



dave2176 said:


> Is there a reason to run the machine with the cross slide removed to gain the clearance to the saddle for turning?


No, never.  Without the cross slide, there would be no way to precisely control the position of the tool bit, so you couldn't turn anything.

Pretty much a useless spec.  You are right that Grizzly is very inconsistent with what they mean "Swing over saddle"; on some machines it is the same as swing over bed, or swing over cross slide, or less than the swing over cross slide.


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## coolidge

wrmiller19 said:


> Hey! the G0670 is on sale! Just trying to help...



^^^ HENCE your designation as an "instigator"! In other news I hear you are going to receive a bonus package soon from CT.


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## wrmiller

From CT? Not that I'm aware of. Or did this just go right over my head...


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## coolidge

wrmiller19 said:


> From CT? Not that I'm aware of. Or did this just go right over my head...



I saw this in an email yesterday, also a large heavy black iron machine is now inbound to my location.


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## wrmiller

CNC?


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## darkzero

I know what it is!


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## wrmiller

Ok, I'll play along along. 

Need pictures of whatever you get though!


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## tmarks11

Charter Oak just deciding to give you free stuff because you have been such a good customer (and flashed dozens of enticing pictures of your mill on this website)?

New marketing idea: give Bill free machinery!


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## coolidge

Or he's a paid instigator...which are my suspicions  LOL but seriously yes I think Bill has something inbound, sorry I honestly don't know what it is, it sounds like parts or spare parts.


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## wrmiller

Can't think of what Paul might send. I've (relatively) recently inquired about doing a ball screw conversion, which he says he has helped others with. A long time ago I inquired about putting a motor on the Z axis but don't like that idea if I loose manual control over it. I can't use the quick change tooling, nor the NT30 conversion with the belt drive.

I haven't talked to Paul since the holidays so I'm not sure what he would send?? Guess I'll just have to wait and find out I suppose.

So...Coolidge...you buy that 670 yet? Man, that's the lathe I'd buy if I had a place and the money for it. I of course would never use even 50% of it's capacity. Would be fun to drive though.


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## tmarks11

wrmiller19 said:


> So...Coolidge...you buy that 670 yet?


Forums like this are bad for my wallet (and apparently Bill's and Coolidge's....)


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## coolidge

Bill the wait has begun for a Grizzly 10% off coupon so in the mean time I'll continue window shopping. I priced out the lathe, Dorian starter set, Bison chuck, and two back plates yesterday and it was north of $10k ouch.


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## darkzero

What's up with those Grizzly coupons? The only coupon I ever received from them was not by email but in their yearly catalog for 10% &only in the very first one I received. After that, I've never received a coupon from them, not in any following catalogs (some have reported 5% recently), & again, never by email. After 2 yrs of never receiving one & being very rare to find online from other posters, I stopped caring. I don't buy much from them anyway.


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## coolidge

The coupons are somewhat erratic, I get one about every 6 months. Since 10% off this order will $1,000+ its worth it. Also if you buy a machine that cost over I think $5k you can just call them up and ask for a discount. The down side for me buying from Grizzly is I live in one of the three states where they have a showroom so I get hit with sales tax which is going to be another $900.

Bill the G0670 is looking less likely, it cannot be delivered via lift gate service.


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## darkzero

Damn, there goes your discount! Damn taxes!


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## wrmiller

coolidge said:


> The coupons are somewhat erratic, I get one about every 6 months. Since 10% off this order will $1,000+ its worth it. Also if you buy a machine that cost over I think $5k you can just call them up and ask for a discount. The down side for me buying from Grizzly is I live in one of the three states where they have a showroom so I get hit with sales tax which is going to be another $900.
> 
> Bill the G0670 is looking less likely, it cannot be delivered via lift gate service.



Oh, sorry, thought you would know about that. These bigger lathes simply can't be delivered by liftgate as they just don't fit. When I was semi-seriously considering the RML I had already identified a rigging company in the Denver area that I was going to have the lathe shipped to, then have them perform the delivery and setup. With these bigger machines costs start adding up real quickly. So I slapped myself upside the head and took a hard look in the mirror and decided that for gunsmithing (which isn't hard on machines anyway) and home hobby stuff I really only need a 13 or 14" swing so I started looking more closely at what was available with the thought that this would be the last lathe I buy and it needed to be semi-portable, i.e. movable by yours truly. I ended up picking the PM as you know, and picked my primary chuck and QCTP using the same criteria.


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## JimDawson

coolidge said:


> The coupons are somewhat erratic, I get one about every 6 months. Since 10% off this order will $1,000+ its worth it. Also if you buy a machine that cost over I think $5k you can just call them up and ask for a discount. The down side for me buying from Grizzly is I live in one of the three states where they have a showroom so I get hit with sales tax which is going to be another $900.
> 
> Bill the G0670 is looking less likely, it cannot be delivered via lift gate service.



Just take delivery in Portland (or Sandy), the sales tax goes away.  I can off-load it at my place and transfer it to a drop deck trailer for you.

.


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## wrmiller

JimDawson said:


> Just take delivery in Portland (or Sandy), the sales tax goes away.  I can off-load it at my place and transfer it to a drop deck trailer for you.
> 
> .


Way to go Jim!


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## coolidge

Jim wow that's an idea thanks for the offer. In other news my Wood magazine showed up today, the last Grizzly coupon I got was via Wood...no joy on a Grizzly coupon but I did get a 20% off Harbor Freight coupon!


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## dave2176

JimDawson said:


> Just take delivery in Portland (or Sandy), the sales tax goes away.  I can off-load it at my place and transfer it to a drop deck trailer for you.
> 
> .



I was going to offer having it shipped to my place. I'll hold it for you if you want an excuse to see Utah.
Dave


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## Reddinr

Coolidge 
I just purchased a 0509G last summer.  The offloading wasn't too bad.  I rented a forklift from a rental place nearby and unloaded it myself.  The thing came on the truck small end out so the lift down to the ground was nerve wracking lifting from one end.  The weight distribution is right though and the pallet was pretty good so the thing just sticks way out from the forks with most of the weight on the forks.  Once on the ground I was able to come in from the side.  My shop was just big enough and tall enough to move the lathe around using bars through the lifting holes and chains over the forks.  Probably took 2-3 hours to get it in place and I only had to pay a half day for fork lift rental.  I had a huge Yaskawa drive kicking around for phase conversion and I made an AC filter (choke and some capacitors) so I could feed the AC in to the lathe and use the lathe's controls for speed control.  Some day, I'll probably rewire so I can make better use of the drive the way it is supposed to be used and have adjustable RPM with a knob.

So far, I am really enjoying the lathe.   I'm a non-machinist and just learning.   I went big because I didn't want to buy a lathe, then risk having to buy a bigger one later.  Not sure I'll ever use the full capability of it but it is there.

I'm a bit east of Tacoma if you are interested to see one without driving to the top of the state.


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## coolidge

Hey Reddinr thanks for the info and I just may take you up on that offer to see one in person. I can't see making it the 500 mile round trip to Bellingham given the 80 mile traffic jam that surrounds Seattle during the week. Can you do me a HUGE favor can you tell me what the distance is from the top of the compound to the spindle centerline, also the width of the compound? I'm trying to figure out if the Dorian CA QCTP will fit height and width wise. The Dorian CA base is 4.0 x 4.0 inches vs the Dorian CXA 3.5 x 3.5 inches. Of course feel free to tell us how you like the lathe, pro's, con's I'm all ears.


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## coolidge

In other news...Bill is EVIL!! The G0670 is back on the table and I would say has taken the lead over the G0509g.


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## wrmiller

coolidge said:


> In other news...Bill is EVIL!! The G0670 is back on the table and I would say has taken the lead over the G0509g.



Just trying to be helpful...


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## JimDawson

We're doing our best to help you spend your money.


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## Reddinr

coolidge said:


> Hey Reddinr thanks for the info and I just may take you up on that offer to see one in person. I can't see making it the 500 mile round trip to Bellingham given the 80 mile traffic jam that surrounds Seattle during the week. Can you do me a HUGE favor can you tell me what the distance is from the top of the compound to the spindle centerline, also the width of the compound? I'm trying to figure out if the Dorian CA QCTP will fit height and width wise. The Dorian CA base is 4.0 x 4.0 inches vs the Dorian CXA 3.5 x 3.5 inches. Of course feel free to tell us how you like the lathe, pro's, con's I'm all ears.



Sure.  No problem.   The distance to the top of the cross slide that the compound sits on is 5.06".   The slide for the compound is 1.78" higher than the top of the cross slide and the top surface of the compound is 3.36" higher than the top of the cross slide.  So, that's 3.28" from center to the slide for the compound and 1.70" from center to the top surface of the compound.  The top of the compound is 3.8" wide.

I don't have vast experience with a lathe.  My experience is high school shop and my uncle let me use his from time to time, both decades ago.  So, take my comments with that in mind.  It was a tough decision about the lathe.  I came close to getting a 4003g to save money and have a lighter weight lathe for ease of shipping etc.  The 0509g just has more meat on it, wider ways etc. I thought it would be much stiffer and allow for more capability as my skills hopefully grow to catch up with the capability of the lathe.   I have few complaints so far.   Everything worked.  All the parts were there.  All of the gears worked.  Some of the gear levers are touchy and you have to get them just right but they work.   The manual is a little sketchy but not unusually so for any machine these days.  Changing gears to go from worm to regular threading took a little time to figure out as the manual has just a couple of sentences and a bad photo.  Still, it just took a few minutes and a "duh" moment to get it done.  

I bought a motor-type phase converter that was too small for the job.  I got a 7.5HP for the 5HP motor of the lathe.  Had I been more careful, I would have read up and known better.  These motors seem to take lots of start-up current.   It did work on low gear/low speed settings but the spin-up time was slow.  On high settings I would pop the overload or a breaker on the lathe.  The inverter I have now is much better.  The brake is very convenient.  The machine is massive and takes a while to come to a stop without the brake.


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## tmarks11

coolidge said:


> Bill the G0670 is looking less likely, it cannot be delivered via lift gate service.


Go rent a hydraulic drop-deck trailer from Sunbelt ($100/day) in Kent, WA and drive up and pick it up your self.  You can move the lathe right off the drop-deck with a pallet jack.

Drive up the Kitsap side and take the Edmonds ferry and miss most of the traffic.


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## darkzero

JimDawson said:


> We're doing our best to help you spend your money.


I know I've done my part!


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## coolidge

tmarks11 said:


> Go rent a hydraulic drop-deck trailer from Sunbelt ($100/day) in Kent, WA and drive up and pick it up your self.  You can move the lathe right off the drop-deck with a pallet jack.
> 
> Drive up the Kitsap side and take the Edmonds ferry and miss most of the traffic.



GET OUT...that's brilliant! Now hauling a 3,600 lb top heavy lathe 250 miles...through the Seattle 80 mile long traffic gauntlet I dunno. Renting a trailer like this to get it to my house locally and into the garage yeah, interesting.

Calculating...$600 to let Grizzly ship it and rent a trailer to get it into my garage, $300 for gas and 2 days trailer rental to drive up there and haul it myself...its almost worth $300 to me to let Grizzly take the shipping risk. If I were closer and that wasn't such a traffic nightmare up there it would have been worth it.


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## coolidge

darkzero said:


> I know I've done my part!



DZ, Jim, Bill the axis of EVIL!!


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## coolidge

Reddinr said:


> Sure.  No problem.   The distance to the top of the cross slide that the compound sits on is 5.06".   The slide for the compound is 1.78" higher than the top of the cross slide and the top surface of the compound is 3.36" higher than the top of the cross slide.  So, that's 3.28" from center to the slide for the compound and 1.70" from center to the top surface of the compound.  The top of the compound is 3.8" wide.
> 
> I don't have vast experience with a lathe.  My experience is high school shop and my uncle let me use his from time to time, both decades ago.  So, take my comments with that in mind.  It was a tough decision about the lathe.  I came close to getting a 4003g to save money and have a lighter weight lathe for ease of shipping etc.  The 0509g just has more meat on it, wider ways etc. I thought it would be much stiffer and allow for more capability as my skills hopefully grow to catch up with the capability of the lathe.   I have few complaints so far.   Everything worked.  All the parts were there.  All of the gears worked.  Some of the gear levers are touchy and you have to get them just right but they work.   The manual is a little sketchy but not unusually so for any machine these days.  Changing gears to go from worm to regular threading took a little time to figure out as the manual has just a couple of sentences and a bad photo.  Still, it just took a few minutes and a "duh" moment to get it done.
> 
> I bought a motor-type phase converter that was too small for the job.  I got a 7.5HP for the 5HP motor of the lathe.  Had I been more careful, I would have read up and known better.  These motors seem to take lots of start-up current.   It did work on low gear/low speed settings but the spin-up time was slow.  On high settings I would pop the overload or a breaker on the lathe.  The inverter I have now is much better.  The brake is very convenient.  The machine is massive and takes a while to come to a stop without the brake.



Thanks a bunch Reddinr. So the spindle centerline is 1.70 inches from the top of the compound where the QCTP would sit. The "optimal" centerline for the Dorian CXA is 1.65 inches so the CXA is near perfect size for the G0509G. The working range for the CXA is 1.25 to 2.25 inches allowing plenty of room up and down for different tool heights. The Dorian CA is clearly too large with an optimal centerline height of 1.937 and range of 1.562 to 2.562.

I would be interested in any info you could share on your choice of inverter.


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## JimDawson

Gunrunner you need to order a set of these for the Z axis hand crank. Bill did you just spit coffee on your monitor? :rofl:

View attachment 253356


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## Reddinr

coolidge said:


> Thanks a bunch Reddinr. So the spindle centerline is 1.70 inches from the top of the compound where the QCTP would sit. The "optimal" centerline for the Dorian CXA is 1.65 inches so the CXA is near perfect size for the G0509G. The working range for the CXA is 1.25 to 2.25 inches allowing plenty of room up and down for different tool heights. The Dorian CA is clearly too large with an optimal centerline height of 1.937 and range of 1.562 to 2.562.
> 
> I would be interested in any info you could share on your choice of inverter.



The inverter I'm using is a monster.  I think it is 100+HP rated, surplus unit I had lying around.   I rewired it as a voltage regulator with a big filter on the output.  In general though, an inverter needs to be over-sized in order to work well as a single phase to three phase converter.  It has to do with the input circuits of the inverter.  The input breaker/feeder will need to be higher current rated too.   The inverter should be one that is specified or known to work as a single to three phase inverter.  Some of them won't do that.   A couple of examples:  A Yaskawa A1000 series drive, for a 5HP motor, with no added input inductors:  Model 2A0056.  If you add some input inductors, a 2A0040 will do it.   The input inductors help the drive by reducing peak currents and for other technical reasons.  Those are 20HP and 15HP drives respectively, and a little pricey.   I picked Yaskawa as an example because they have good specs. that call out what its single phase ratings are.   Those are likely pretty conservative ratings for a lathe since the lathe is usually a fairly low duty cycle load.   Because the motors in these lathes are not "inverter rated" you will need to at least add output inductors to reduce the voltage stresses on the motor and probably output filters.  Otherwise, the motor may not last long because the inverters create voltages with very fast/high peaks.   If you use the inverter in a conventional way, you will also need to rewire the lathe because the ON/OFF controls need to control the inverter and not directly turn on/off the inverter's load which can be bad for the inverter.   With certain inverters, there is a mode where the inverter can act as a three phase AC power supply but you need external circuitry to make it work.  That is what I am doing with my inverter in order to avoid a lathe re-wire for the moment and so I can use it to power some three phase electronics.  I'm not trying to discourage you but you should go into it knowing the realities of the inverter.   There are likely people with experience with some of the other, lower cost inverter brands and may have smaller drives the work well for their situation.


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## coolidge

Reddinr dang, that doesn't sound very turnkey. I have some electrical/electronics knowledge but not enough to design something. I have been looking at the American Rotary AD 15 phase converter. It looks like I would be fine with one of those on a 40 amp single phase breaker up to a 5hp load.

Rotary phase converter noise right but I have a VFD on my mill generating 3 phase power (inverter rated Leeson motor) and the cooling fans go WHAAAAAA so how much louder could they be.

https://www.americanrotary.com/products/view/ad-digital-smart-series

Machine 3 phase power requirements and 83 inch high garage doors are starting to cramp my style, I'm about to get irritated and buy a new home with a shop, a 10' door, and 200 amps of 3 phase power


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## wrmiller

Might be cheaper to lease a small shop in a local industrial park. My old boss built his shop to take care of his Ferrari 550 and ended up with pretty much everything in there. Extreme example, but I considered it back when I was thinking of doing some performance car side work. For engine management tuning, I needed space for the chassis dyno...


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## mksj

There are 5Hp single phase VFDs that work just fine without getting complicated. 
Haunyang VFD 5Hp Single phase, on eBay or through vendors
AC Tech (Lenze) SFC series SF250Y 208/240 Volt 1 or 3 Phase input HP = 5 KW=4.0 Current Output 17.5 Must be the Y version, the SF250 is 3 phase input only
Leeson SM Plus IP20 VFD 200-240V 1&3PH INPUT Hp = 5 Manufacturer Part Number:174444.00
Price is $600-700 vs the Haunyang $225
Opinion of Haunyang varies, I have not seen any direct comparisons, but there has to be some compromises at that price level.
Some 3 phase VFD units can be run on 1 phase, you would need something like a 8.5-10Hp 3 phase input VFD unit. there was some discussion in these posts
http://www.dartcontrols.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/De-Rating-VFD-for-Single-Phase-Power.pdf
http://www.hobby-machinist.com/thre...h-smvector-teco-hitachi-etc-beyond-3hp.21735/

VFD noise/fans. Many VFDs allow you to adjust the fan so it does not run all the time. My WJ200 is set to run off temperature, it rarely turns on. Also, if in an enclosure they are a lot quieter. The other significant noise problem can be motor wine, with some tweaking of the carrier frequency, it usually goes away at 12Khz and above. It is very uncommon to need any filters/chokes on the lines with these smaller VFD units. Most posts that discuss non-VFD 3 phase motors run by VFDs, they rarely if ever report having seen a motor failure, and we are talking very old motors. Also, motors run at 240V 3 phase will see much lower VFD voltage spikes, than those run at the higher voltages.


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## coolidge

I have read (don't know how accurate it is) that a problem with using a VFD for the G0509G is the main motor operates at 2 different speeds/windings then there is the 2nd 3 phase motor for the coolant pump.


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## mksj

Just addressing the issue of a single phase 5 Hp VFD. Not so familiar with 2 seed 3 phase AC motors, and the optimum use with a VFD but would probably only use the high speed (4Hp) and the VFD would do the rest. The 3 phase coolant pump (1/8Hp) could be run off any basic VFD ($50-80) if you wanted or even used flood coolant. Most people would go with a RPC. All I am outlining is there are a lot of options, with not a lot of limitations, you need to consider the additional costs in what lathe you choose. When you add everything up, there are a number of variable speed VFD lathes in this price category. My experience was I could of purchased the variable speed version of the lathe (if it was available in the US) for what I invested in adding it on after the matter of the fact.


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## tmarks11

coolidge said:


> I have read (don't know how accurate it is) that a problem with using a VFD for the G0509G is the main motor operates at 2 different speeds/windings then there is the 2nd 3 phase motor for the coolant pump.


The G0509G uses a barrel switch to control SLOW vs FAST winding power.  If you wired that directly to your VFD 3 phase output, you are trusting yourself not to goon things up by shifting the speed when the lathe motor is turning.

I have never tried to shift speeds in a gear head lathe while the motor was running, so that doesn't seem too unsafe.

If you want to make things automated to protect your self, you would have to replace the barrel switch with a DPDT switch, and add an interlocked pair of three phase contactors.   That would be tricky, but it could be done.  SLOW/FAST switch triggers VFD to stop, zero speed output contact on VFD in sequence with second pole of SLOW/FAST switch triggers the contactors that reroute slow vs.  fast winding power. That isn't quite enough to make up the complete circuit; you also need a couple of relays to keep power supplied to the contactors when the VFD is commanded to off for some other reason than switching speed.

Probably not worth the additional effort and expense.


----------



## Chip

I did a dual speed wiring on my mill using a VFD. I went low-tech and pulled off the knob that operates the barrel switch used for speed and rotation direction. Wired up the power to the switch as normal.

HOWEVER, if I want to switch from HI to LOW speed, (I don't bother with the rotation options because the VFD does that) I have to go fetch this knob and use it to actuate the barrel switch. I keep said knob tied to the power cord so that I can't help but remember to unplug the VFD every time.

Bit of a Rube Goldberg solution, but it works.


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## coolidge

Update: G0670

I have been researching the G0670, trying to understand what I would be getting for the additional $5500. In addition to being manufactured in Taiwan and variable speed, it turns out a fair bit.

1. While both lathes are rated at 40 inches between centers the G0670 carriage actually travels 40 inches, the G0509G carriage only travels 33 inches.
2. Both lathes have about a 10 inch wide bed but the G0670 has triple V ways vs the G0509G's double V.
3. While the apron design looks exactly the same for both lathes the saddle for the G0670 is actually quite a bit different.
4. The G0670 tailstock quill has 6 inches of travel vs 4.75 inches for the G0509G
5. The G0670 has an adjustable feed clutch, looks like it would be annoying to adjust, not as good as actual feed stops on other lathes but its something.
6. The G0670 spindle is nearly 5 inches wider.
7. The G0670 has an electric oil pump with internal plumbing directing the oil to critical areas in the headstock and gearbox.
9. The G0670 looks to have nicer hand wheels and better fit and finish, and a pull out chip drawer.
10. The G0670 lowest speed is 20 rpm vs 45 rpm for the G0509G, I would not mind slowing down threading vs 70 rpm on my G4003G.
11. Big plus the G0670 spindle centerline is 4 inches closer to the floor that should put it just about the exact height I need it.


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## wrmiller

When I looked at the 670, I saw more similarities between it and the SB1037 that I did the 509 but I will admit that I didn't do an exhaustive comparison. The 3-v bed for example. I wouldn't be surprised if they (670 & SB1037) come from the same factory.


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## coolidge

On the other hand, $13,500 for the G0670, add $1,100 for a DRO, $1,100 for a quality Bison chuck, $600 for coolant system, etc. and I'm half way to this Haas 16x30 TL1


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## coolidge

wrmiller19 said:


> When I looked at the 670, I saw more similarities between it and the SB1037 that I did the 509 but I will admit that I didn't do an exhaustive comparison. The 3-v bed for example. I wouldn't be surprised if they (670 & SB1037) come from the same factory.



I have compared them, visually they are nearly exactly the same, I'm not sure where they are getting that SB price increase from.


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## coolidge

On the other hand watch this Dorian QCTP not locked down with dowels twist...LOOK OUT BOOOOOM!


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## wrmiller

In this price range you could also look at the PM1640: 12" wide bed, 3 spindle bearings, and 0ver 4000lbs!


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## coolidge

Hey Bill, yes I have information on that lathe from Matt at PM. The carriage stops are enticing on that lathe, its a step up from the G0509G but its also manufactured in China. The same lathe is sold under several importer brands, prices range from $9,500 to $10,500 so its priced between the G0509G and G0670. I decided that if I'm willing to go to $10k I may as well go all the way to the made in Taiwan lathes.

Matt also sells a RML 1640V which is equivalent to the Grizzly G0670 I'm considering. Again this same lathe is sold under several brand names, Kent for example. Right now nobody is even close to Grizzly on price, the G0670 is on sale $1,000 off for $13,495 plus $495 shipping. The next closest competitor is $3,000 higher price/shipping, though I'd probably not have to pay sales tax so that would save about $1,300. These Taiwan lathes are optioned somewhat differently. Matt's has a chuck and tool post shield. His are listed as ISO 9001 certified, Grizzly is not. Matt notes single phase power, I'm not sure that's the case for the variable speed model.

If Matt's RML 1640V is really ready to run on single phase power that might be a game changer, I'll have to buy a rotary phase converter to run the Grizzly which looks to be another $1,500 so that would.

I was able to speak with Grizzly this morning on the G0670 and confirmed some things. Motor is made in Taiwan, chuck is made in Taiwan, casting/bed is made in Taiwan. I had come across some postings on other brand lathes (not Grizzly or PM) where people were complaining that their made in Taiwan lathe turned out to be only partially made in Taiwan. The Grizzly looks to be 100% made in Taiwan so that's good. Matt's is further upgraded with Siemens electronics.

Closing out the G0509G its officially crossed off my list. I was able to speak with a few G0509G owners, it was mixed reviews but mostly positive. Most were happy overall, one noted its way more lathe than his 1440's. All noted a few quality issues and all owners noted the same issue with selection knobs/levers left you feeling unsure if they were positioned correctly. One owner obviously received a lemon unit and he wasn't happy.


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## wrmiller

Ah...didn't know it (PM1640) was not Taiwan made. It sounds like the 670 is truly a Taiwan manufactured machine. But Matt's RML lathes look rather tasty too. Decisions, decisions...


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## mksj

At this price range, the RML versions in a 14 or 16x40 made in Taiwan offers a lot of lathe. Smooth machines with excellent quality. I was very serious about the ERL and RML-1440V, and also contacted Sunmaster. The CSS is available, you would need to check on options. Wouldn't be surprised if these also go to Grizzly. Some additional information
http://www.hhrobertsmachinery.com/lathes/Shun-Chuan-RML-Lathes.html
http://www.hhrobertsmachinery.com/HHRM-docs/Shun Chuan/ShunChuan.pdf

If I needed more machine (+ had the cash) and could have handled the weight of the machine (this was the biggest limitation), this would have been my first choice. If QMT can get you the RML with the assorted trimmings at a good price, go for it. My "lathe" budget almost doubled from where I started, but will hopefully be the last one I am going to buy (sorry Bill, I only have space for one and I do not plan on moving). So I look at it as money well spent, when you take into account the many years of use and not having to buy up later. The same goes for chucks and tooling. The stock chucks that came with my lathe, where a disappointment for me (but it was the budget package and I got what I paid for). Replaced them with PBA and Bison, world of difference.
RML-1640 running: 



This thread sounds like a repeat of a previous thread asking the same question on these lathes.
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/gunsmithing/gunsmithing-lathe-dilema-one-217702/


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## blay127

coolidge, if you're interested i have an Aloris CXA toolpost for sale here
http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/aloris-cxa-toolpost.30825/


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## wrmiller

Very nice video (breathe, bill, breathe) and I have to remind myself that I don't NEED that nice...er...big of a lathe, and that this puppy costs as much as both of my smaller lathes put together. But if I planned on retiring here, then I may have ponied up for the Big Guy just for the heck of it.


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## coolidge

Blay127 thanks for the offer but I'm going with the Dorian CXA QCTP.


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## wrmiller

coolidge said:


> Blay127 thanks for the offer but I'm going with the Dorian CXA QCTP.



My wimpy little BXA Dorian should be at the house when I get home tonight. The lathe isn't here yet but I'll have to unbox it just to get a look at this thing.


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## Doubleeboy

I considered for a few weeks that PM1640, but its too much tool for 2 little money, you get what you pay for.  That dreadful bondo job on the cast iron and paint looking like it was slobbered on by drunken monkeys should be a tip off.   I agree with the other posters that none of the RML type lathes sold by a variety of sellers can compete on paper with the Griz price.  ISO factories may make a difference, I don't know.  Maybe the Grizzly chucks stink, maybe the electrics suck......  Only 2 real humans have related their experience with the machine to me.  They both love it and are happy  to have it in their shop.  I believe the Griz is the old South Bend Turn Ado with different graphics and the wrestlers belt buckle.  I expect to place my order soon.

michael


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## coolidge

Doubleeboy said:


> I considered for a few weeks that PM1640, but its too much tool for 2 little money, you get what you pay for.  That dreadful bondo job on the cast iron and paint looking like it was slobbered on by drunken monkeys should be a tip off.   I agree with the other posters that none of the RML type lathes sold by a variety of sellers can compete on paper with the Griz price.  ISO factories may make a difference, I don't know.  Maybe the Grizzly chucks stink, maybe the electrics ****......  Only 2 real humans have related their experience with the machine to me.  They both love it and are happy  to have it in their shop.  I believe the Griz is the old South Bend Turn Ado with different graphics and the wrestlers belt buckle.  I expect to place my order soon.
> 
> michael



So Michael are you saying you plan to order a G0670? Is there any input from the other two people you can share? I confirmed today that Grizzly has plenty of G0670 stock on hand ready to ship. Also the sale price because its in the 2015 catalog should be good for the whole year. I think I will start a G0670 thread since that's where I'm heading.


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## JimDawson

coolidge, PM me when you are ready to pull the trigger.  The offer to take delivery here is still good.


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## Doubleeboy

Yes I plan on ordering one, I am just waiting of firm ship times and getting that to coincide with when my rigger is available to politely place it where I want.... about 8 feet across from other lathe.   don't want the lathe showing up while my rigger is gone for a week on out of town job. I spoke on the phone with one gentleman who I imagine prefers to stay anonymous... he is a somewhat famous gunsmith and supplier of accessories for that trade.  He does not spend time on bulletin boards, but was put in contact with me by a third party.  He said he loved the machine , ran it off a rotary phase converter of 10 hp and other than he bought a better chuck has done nothing else to it.    Another fellow off of Snipers Hide bought one and mentioned that he was very happy.   Even the King of PM board said it looked like a not bad machine except for the belt buckle.

  I am spoiled , I turn on one the worlds finest high precision lathes, I love it, but it has less than 20" between centers and 12.5" swing.   In most every way conceivable it is worlds better than the Griz or any other lathe from that neck of the woods, but it has a small work envelope to be sure. 

My main attractions to the G0670 is the t slot cross slide, variable speed, relatively high speed, made in Taiwan.  Negatives IMO are most likely chuck quality, high rise tailstock, compared to the low, long American style of tailstock from the 50s etc.  Minor nit picks are the chucks are included, great if they are good, but does anyone really expect them to be Bison or better quality.   My last concern is its a crap shoot, no local dealer for help.   I know enough guys with 10ee lathes that if I have problems they can lend their knowledge and experience, not so with the G0670.

I might have ordered the similar machine from QM, but they could not get me specs on machine or the manual, plus their price for the 14" was more than the Griz 16".  That is about all I know.

Hope this helps
michael


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## coolidge

Jim duly noted and appreciated I'll be in touch.

Michael thanks for the info, please join me in the G0670 I started to continue this discussion. I agree on the T slot cross slide, one wild idea is a live tooling head for off axis work. Agree with you on the chucks an option to delete the chucks and save a few bucks would be nice. Yeah the belt buckle...I may have to debadge it.


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## wrmiller

Here we go folks...


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## coolidge

Just blowing the dust off this thread, the G0509G drool has resumed after re-thinking my strategy. Price is currently $6975 with a 10% off coupon, that leaves room for a VFD/Motor/DRO conversion before the costs get stupid. I just can't let go of wanting a 16x40 lathe I guess.


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## tmarks11

coolidge said:


> Price is currently *$7582* with a 10% off coupon *+ 8.7% sales tax*....



There, fixed it for ya...  doesn't make that 10% off seem like such a good deal anymore...  

Dahmit, now I am going to have to swing by Grizzly to snap some more photos for you to nudge you into buying one...  Just drove through there on Friday... unfortunately, it was about 9:00 at night... but I will be by there again in a couple of weeks...


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## coolidge

tmarks11 said:


> There, fixed it for ya...  doesn't make that 10% off seem like such a good deal anymore...
> 
> Dahmit, now I am going to have to swing by Grizzly to snap some more photos for you to nudge you into buying one...  Just drove through there on Friday... unfortunately, it was about 9:00 at night... but I will be by there again in a couple of weeks...



Unfixed, there is no sales tax at Jim's shop.


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## JimDawson

He can have it delivered to my place, no sales tax.  And I'll even transfer the load to a drop deck trailer.  Checkmate! 



tmarks11 said:


> There, fixed it for ya... doesn't make that 10% off seem like such a good deal anymore.


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## tmarks11

But than he would have to pay $495 shipping...


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## coolidge

Does anyone know Jim's favorite adult beverage or restaurant?


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## coolidge

tmarks11 said:


> But than he would have to pay $495 shipping...



I think shipping is unavoidable, I really don't want to haul a 3,000 lathe in an open trailer 250 miles through that insane Seattle stop and go traffic.

Plan B would be have it shipped to Jim's or my brother's address and just pick it up at the shipping company's dock they can probably set it on the trailer for me, saves them a trip out.


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## tmarks11

coolidge said:


> I think shipping is unavoidable, I really don't want to haul a 3,000 lathe in an open trailer 250 miles through that insane Seattle stop and go traffic.


I managed the trip with my 1500# lathe without any fuss... of course, two years ago I made the trip coast to coast with a uhaul with 17000# of machinery in it, so that was child's play by comparison...


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## coolidge

Yeah over 3,000 lbs and very top heavy not happening, in fact considering how top heavy it will be I may just get a rigger to deal with this.


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## tmarks11

where's your sense of adventure 

The thought of unloading that beast was a big negative consideration in my book (even with a 2 ton gantry crane).  I had a hard enough time with my G0709.  Could really see that it wanted to turn turtle on me once or twice.  Having an electric hoist saved my bacon (could both muscle it upright and lower at the same time).


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## JimDawson

coolidge said:


> Yeah over 3,000 lbs and very top heavy not happening, in fact considering how top heavy it will be I may just get a rigger to deal with this.




Where is the excitement in that?  Actually handling is not bad as long as it's still bolted to the pallet.  Once off the pallet then things get more interesting.  Lifting from the top is almost mandatory.  My favorite way of moving mid-weight machines when working with low ceilings, is to get them sitting on the floor, then just drag them across the floor with a come-a-long.  Anchor bolts in the floor can be your friend.  I've moved a lot a machinery that way.  I wish I had pictures of moving my machines in and out of my houseboat, including a 9x42 BP clone.  That was an adventure, but actually only took about 15 minutes to get it out the 36 inch door and sitting on the deck where the crane barge could hook on to it.


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## Doubleeboy

JimDawson said:


> Where is the excitement in that?  Actually handling is not bad as long as it's still bolted to the pallet.  Once off the pallet then things get more interesting.  Lifting from the top is almost mandatory.  My favorite way of moving mid-weight machines when working with low ceilings, is to get them sitting on the floor, then just drag them across the floor with a come-a-long.  Anchor bolts in the floor can be your friend.  I've moved a lot a machinery that way.  I wish I had pictures of moving my machines in and out of my houseboat, including a 9x42 BP clone.  That was an adventure, but actually only took about 15 minutes to get it out the 36 inch door and sitting on the deck where the crane barge could hook on to it.



When I moved to my current place 2 years ago, I hired a rigger (best in town) to do the move from old place to new and do the install.  Two steep driveways, tight turns, me with bad back and limited fork lift experience and no trailer seemed like the prudent thing to do.  First in the new place was the BP style mill, they placed it on floor of entry to garage on 4 teflon pads that had shoulders to help keep them in place, then they took Dawn dish soap and coated floor, and then just pushed it by hand 25 feet to its new home, lifted it up with a toe jack, removed teflon pads and we were done. The EE being short, squat and top heavy got rolled on machinery movers then place on floor with toe jacks.  They spent more time wiping up soap than they did moving the stuff. I used em again for my new lathe last month, very funny, I am the smallest job they had done since last time they were here.   If would have been good for my ego to do it myself, but given the tricky drives, side slope and down hill, I am glad someone with 30 years experience was driving fork lift and doing the brain work.  

michael


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## coolidge

Michael what did they charge you? Just looking for some pricing info for when I call our local riggers.


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## coolidge

JimDawson said:


> Where is the excitement in that?



Jim you obviously have spent little time driving on my side of the river, remember it was only months ago one of those morons charged out from a side street and smashed into the side of my F150 at full throttle totaling it.


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## JimDawson

coolidge said:


> Jim you obviously have spent little time driving on my side of the river, remember it was only months ago one of those morons charged out from a side street and smashed into the side of my F150 at full throttle totaling it.



I remember that now, yeah, that's exciting.  I try to avoid that area and Portland also.  I like it out here in the country and there's a reason I drive a 7800 lb truck.


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## Doubleeboy

coolidge said:


> Michael what did they charge you? Just looking for some pricing info for when I call our local riggers.


I hired the guy with the most experience, he charged me $1100 to move the mill and lathe 20 miles, 1 mile of it on narrow gravel road, nasty hilly driveway at both locations.  Took about 4.5 hours start to finish for him and his helper.  He is a large crane and rigging outfit, this was small potatoes, he actually had to go rent a small fork lift and trailer cause his stuff is all huge by comparison.  I could of had it done for less but this guy is who you call when you want it done right with no drama.   He did the Grizzly lathe last month for $700.  Fed Ex freight delivered to his shop, he unloaded it, put it in his shop for night and next day rented trailer and fork lift and brought it all out and did the install.  It was a no brainer for him, but the way he side shifted lathe while on trailer, took a new bite, side shifted again  repeatedly from side of trailer to get the lathe past the wheels so he could snatch it from the side was pretty snazzy.  Literally the lathe never knew it was being moved, coming down the driveway with no straps on lathe the lathe did not even budge an inch going over and expansion joint in drive.  It was worth it to me, I know I paid top dollar but I got the job that I wanted done with no issues.    I have a friend who rented, toe jacks, machinery rollers, fork lift and by the time he was done he was into his lathe install for $550, I figured it was worth the extra couple hundred to have it done by a pro and if there had been a FU, it would have been on his dime, that was all understood ahead of time.  

Now if this had been a Heavy 10, I would have gotten an engine hoist and scraps of teflon  and a pinch bar and a friend and done it myself.    If you do it yourself try to get a fork lift with long forks, but the rental places don't seem to have them very often it seems.   

michael


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## coolidge

I spoke to a rigger today, they would charge $1,067 which is their 4 hour minimum for 2 men, trailer, fork lift. They will have 2 hours RT travel time to my place up here in the back woods. I would have the lathe shipped to their yard in Oregon, that 'should' save me $600 in sales tax on the lathe since there is no sales tax in Oregon. That would offset the rigging fees nicely leaving me about $467 spent on rigging. Less if you consider I would have to rent a trailer $75, buy some heavy straps, and figure out how to get it off the pallet and moved into position ugh yeah the hell with that. They will bring the lathe out with a fork lift that will fit under a standard garage door and move the lathe into place on skates.

Interestingly it would cost about the same to rig the Haas Mini Mill 2, duly noted.


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## JimDawson

*Just to add to the confusion.  *

*Gear Head Engine Lathe 16" 10HP - $3500 (Tigard)*

*http://portland.craigslist.org/wsc/tls/5003396819.html*


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## coolidge

Hey Jim yes that guy posted that lathe for sale a couple weeks ago then withdrew the ad, I saw earlier today that he reposted it. That's a lot of lathe and add-on's for $3,500 which has me wondering what's wrong with it. That DRO is $1,000, plus a VFD plus an Aloris QCTP plus a boat load of Aloris tool holders...so what's the catch? 4 guys including me responded to his last ad, one guy was about to go pick up the lathe when he pulled the ad, said he got a job in for the lathe. I think I'm going to avoid it, that's more that light surface rust.


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## tmarks11

Gunrunner you need to order a set of these for the Z axis hand crank. Bill did you just spit coffee on your monitor? :rofl:

View attachment 253356


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## coolidge

Rattle can overspray, that's always a tip off. Those machines do look a beast.


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## JimDawson

Hmmmmmm!  I wish I could run a 20HP motor in my shop.  I'd have to go buy a generator.


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## tmarks11

You could do it with a 100amp panel.  

But more importantly, is your garage floor thick enough to support 9000#?


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## JimDawson

I only have 50 amps, single phase, and no practical option for more.  Been thinking about a 40KW, 3 phase generator.  The floor seems to handle my 9500# forklift OK, it should be thicker, but it'll work.  Pouring a pad would not be out of the question.


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## tmarks11

The problem generally becomes that you tend to park machinery close to the wall, which is near the edge of the slab and more likely to cause settling and cracking.


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## coolidge

tmarks11 said:


> You could do it with a 100amp panel.
> 
> But more importantly, is your garage floor thick enough to support 9000#?



The concrete in my brothers old shop (light industrial complex) was only 4 inches thick, he had three CNC machines weighing 8,000 to 11,000 lbs in there for years with no issues. I think its a lot more about what's under the concrete e.g. dirt full of tree roots and organics vs a properly graded compacted gravel base. I had them pave my long driveway in asphalt when the house was built. The base is 2 inch jagged gravel topped by 3/4 jagged gravel compacted with a steam roller type machine. But the concrete garage floor is just dirt, sand, concrete. I'm less confident in it.  

Also stop posting in my thread reminding me of my 16x40 drool.


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## tmarks11

coolidge said:


> Also stop posting in my thread reminding me of my 16x40 drool.


It's the least I can do for all those pictures of the build-pro table...


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## coolidge

tmarks11 said:


> It's the least I can do for all those pictures of the build-pro table...



I thought you purchased one? (evil grin)


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