# The welder selection decisions?



## graham-xrf

I know I am late to the party here. I tried searching and reading - until I dozed out!
The sheer number of brands, types features, jargon and prices. Reviews that are good, reviews that are biased, reviews that are unfair/incompetent/irrelevant, is only part of what we face.

No - I do not want to see another YT video of the "unboxing" of some dude's latest sponsored toy! I am thinking the only way through might have to resort to  Baysian weighted attributes decision tree analysis, but before I go slowly crazy, I think there are some yes/no choices that can match to one's needs and budget. There are features that have abbreviations that need translation before even discussing whether one needs it or not. I start from nothing, other than that I remember @DavidR8 bought a Primeweld and a Esab mask.

1. Stick, MIG, TIG? Can any welder do more than one?
2. Gas, or gasless? What's the deal there?
3. How many amps for HM-style hobby use, if generally about 1/4" or maybe 5/16" angle, or common box sections up to about 50mm square is what we expect?
4. Helmet - features essential. What are they?
5. Inverter or transformer? Inverter I guess. Only from what I know about electronics, I decode IGBT to mean "Insulated Gate Bipolar Transistor".
6. Which YouTube reviews are really useful?
7.HF Ignition? How does that work?
8. Torch cooling - water or air, or don't need to bother? What is needed?
9. Given I am in UK, and in current circumstances have to use online ordering, the only common point in finding respected brands is Amazon or eBay (perhaps). There are outlets in UK for traditional established brands e.g. Lincoln or similar.
10. Are there types, or indeed brands, that one should avoid?
11. Is there a (low) price point where one may reasonably suspect the quality is likely to be crap? The price range for similar-looking welders can be huge. The relationship between price, and current rating is (sort of) there, but with huge variance.
12. I even see a Hyundai claiming MIG TIG ARC MMA, apparently all in one. So is there such a thing as "one welder does all"?
13. Other than gloves and auto-darken helmet, is there a list of other kit that can be considered essential?
14. Finally, is there some hope that we can figure out something like a "HM fine and respected" list?


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## Lo-Fi

Go MIG, unless you're desperate to do ali? Gasless is cheap garbage of the worst kind, IMHO. Look up hobbyweld for hobbyist friendly gas. 









						R-Tech 180 Amp Portable Inverter Mig Welder (240v)
					

Mig Welder R-Tech MIG180




					www.r-techwelding.co.uk
				




That's my "literally look no further" suggestion when asked this. Decent kit, good support, 180 amps is enough for almost anything. I rarely use over 120, even on thick stuff. There are multi machines, but you're only going to get DC TIG, so no ali welding anyway. Regretted buying a multi machine myself. Stick isn't much use over MIG really. Having experienced the cheap machines you can buy on eBay or Amazon.... I can't recommend.

For a hood, if you've got the budget: 









						Lincoln Electric Viking welding helmet- Welding Engineering Supplies Ltd
					

Welcome to the Welding Engineering Supplies Ltd website. Shop our range of welding safety equipment supplies, Lincoln Electric Viking 3350 Welding Helmet.




					www.weld-eng.co.uk
				




What you got in mind to be doing?


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## graham-xrf

Lo-Fi said:


> Go MIG, unless you're desperate to do ali? Gasless is cheap garbage of the worst kind, IMHO. Look up hobbyweld for hobbyist friendly gas.
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> R-Tech 180 Amp Portable Inverter Mig Welder (240v)
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> Mig Welder R-Tech MIG180
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> www.r-techwelding.co.uk
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> That's my "literally look no further" suggestion when asked this. Decent kit, good support, 180 amps is enough for almost anything. I rarely use over 120, even on thick stuff. There are multi machines, but you're only going to get DC TIG, so no ali welding anyway. Regretted buying a multi machine myself. Stick isn't much use over MIG really. Having experienced the cheap machines you can buy on eBay or Amazon.... I can't recommend.
> 
> For a hood, if you've got the budget:
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> Lincoln Electric Viking welding helmet- Welding Engineering Supplies Ltd
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> Welcome to the Welding Engineering Supplies Ltd website. Shop our range of welding safety equipment supplies, Lincoln Electric Viking 3350 Welding Helmet.
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> www.weld-eng.co.uk
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> What you got in mind to be doing?


My thanks to you for some solid stuff. OK  - No2 is answered. Use gas.
For my education, is welding aluminum just a matter of using aluminum wire and a suitable current setting?

The first job use is to weld up a frame braced bench for my lathe, with casters and leveling jack bolts. Outwardly, it can look like a lathe stand with tool drawers, but underneath is a cross support on side frames with "A" braces. The left side has to have some structure to hang the underneath drive countershaft mechanism, and motor. That would be the first job, but no doubt there will be more. I want to have the basics for my shop. Aside from the machines (lathe, mill-drill, bench grinder), I consider one should have at least welder, shop-vac, air compressor, 2 files, hacksaw and a big hammer.


[Edit; I have just noticed the link is to UK supplier - many thanks]


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## Lo-Fi

Ali with MIG is possible, but you really need a spool gun, which has the wire feed rollers on the gun. Ive never had any luck with MIG and ali, though - a proper AC TIG machine is the way to go. You need and AC rather than a DC only TIG because the reverse voltage swing helps blow the higher melting point oxide layer off.


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## sycle1

I got a little Kempi brand mig it does AC / DC so it can do aluminium, steel stainless etc.
Its a 15 amp machine.
I use it gasless on steel mainly cause I am lazy and you get sick of paying cylinder rental costs.
Using argoshield gas for steel produces better looking welds or Argon gas for Aluminum, it welds both really well.
I made two 7 metre sliding driveway gates out of alloy box section and alloy angle.
it got some really hard work right out of the box and handled it like a champ, its the best small welder I have ever used.
That was ten years ago and it still spits out weld after weld on a near daily basis. I have replaced the on off switch  due to wear, other than that hasn't missed a beat.


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## 7milesup

1. Stick, MIG, TIG? Can any welder do more than one?  Yes and No  Depends on what you want to do.  Tig Aluminum and then MIG weld on your tractor.  No

2. Gas, or gasless? What's the deal there?  Gasless MIG is fine depending on what you are doing.  TIG MUST use gas.
3. How many amps for HM-style hobby use, if generally about 1/4" or maybe 5/16" angle, or common box sections up to about 50mm square is what we expect?  120 Amps would probably work.  Higher if you planning on TIG'ing.
4. Helmet - features essential. What are they?  Get an auto-darken.  I have a Lincoln 2450 series.  Works good.  Speed Glass, Optrel and other name brands like Miller are good.
5. Inverter or transformer? Inverter I guess. Only from what I know about electronics, I decode IGBT to mean "Insulated Gaste Bipolar Transistor".  Inverter.   You can get transformer but the inverter allows more versatility.  Transformer if going for production work.
6. Which YouTube reviews are really useful? I don't know about reviews but Jody from Welding Tips and Tricks is really good. 6061 On YouTube is very good.  Would like to learn more from him but he charges for some videos.
7.HF Ignition? How does that work?  HF ignition is what I would consider a must in a TIG machine if doing aluminum.  HF is much better IMHO that lift or scratch start.  I feel like lift or scratch you can contaminate the tungsten more easily that way.
8. Torch cooling - water or air, or don't need to bother? What is needed?  Air is fine if doing TIG welding below 150 amps for short periods.  My Lincoln TIG torch is rated at 150 amps, but i have done 200 with it.   Long term use at that amp is not fun.  The torch gets hot, so hot that you can't hold it after a while.
9. Given I am in UK, and in current circumstances have to use online ordering, the only common point in finding respected brands is Amazon or eBay (perhaps). There are outlets in UK for traditional established brands e.g. Lincoln or similar.  No idea what is available across the pond.
10. Are there types, or indeed brands, that one should avoid?  Harbor Freight... LOL. 
11. Is there a (low) price point where one may reasonably suspect the quality is likely to be crap? The price range for similar-looking welders can be huge. The relationship between price, and current rating is (sort of) there, but with huge variance.  I would stick with the name brands.  You will spend more for Lincoln and Miller because the red and blue paint is expensive!  LOL.    Actually, if I were to do it over, I would seriously consider ESAB.  Lot of bang for the buck in my opinion.
12. I even see a Hyundai claiming MIG TIG ARC MMA, apparently all in one. So is there such a thing as "one welder does all"?  Maybe, but not in my price range.  As a side note, our Hyundai Santa Fe has been flawless for 7 years!  
13. Other than gloves and auto-darken helmet, is there a list of other kit that can be considered essential?  YES! A welding jacket, especially for TIG, which emmits a lot more radiation than other types of welding.  A welding jacket was the best $30 I spent.   Now I just can hope I don't get cancer on my lower neck/upper chest where I burned myself umpteen times before wising up and buying a jacket.
14. Finally, is there some hope that we can figure out something like a "HM fine and respected" list?  Beats me!!  Of course, just like all that I wrote above is just my opinion, so it may not be worth the electrons used to write it.


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## addertooth

I like swinging a polecat in a crowded room; it seems like a fun kind of mayhem.  
If you don't see yourself doing a welding project about once every month or two, AND welding steel meets your needs.
Consider buying a cheap 110 Volt "flux core welder".  I have a couple of them, and for welding up tables they work just fine.
I would gladly weld metal up to 5/16th with them (without worrying about grinding grooves or channels beforehand).  

It is a cheap way to jump in, cut your teeth, gain some experience, BEFORE you make up your mind which welder will be
your "forever welder".  

When you are ready to step up, do an inventory of what kinds of 220 volt socket you have in your workspace, and make sure
your circuits are rated to run your forever welder.  If not, then you will have to upgrade your circuits, or down grade your expectations.

Think about the layout of your workshop.  You won't want the dust from welding slag, and grinding dust near your lathe and mill 
(assuming you have, or will want a lathe and a mill).  Those bi-products of welding are unhealthy for the precision surfaces on your
machining tools.  This is where knowing the socket you will be using with your welder is important.  This may go with your wiring
upgrade plan, as the WHERE of your welder can be just as important as finding a way to plug it in.  I dealt with my "where" by purchasing
a 40 foot extension cord made with 8 gauge wire.  Borrow a buddy's flux core wire welder, and have him give you some tips on how to use 
it.  You will find a bit of training goes a long ways toward happiness with any tool.   Weld some stuff, see what you learn.  You may even
discover that welding is not your bag (unlikely), but if that is so, you have save hundreds of dollars buying a nice rig.


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## Aaron_W

You are in the UK so that is going to make some difference, in what machines are available, and you don't have the 120v or 240v issue many here trying to keep it cheap have. Everything is 240v over there I think.

Something in the 200amp range is a pretty good hobby machine allowing you to weld up to about 3/8". The cheaper 125-150 amp machines will limit you to around 1/4". Most machines below 250amps are generally considered light duty, and will have a much lower duty cycle than the larger "professional" machines.

As far as processes, stick is the most forgiving of the material cleanliness. Always good to clean your joints but 6010 or 6011 will still work on stuff that MIG will have a fit over and TIG will just say no. MIG is next in prep and TIG demands a very clean joint.

Set up is similar, stick you can take quickly take a wire brush to your parts and get going unless the metal is really nasty, no gas to worry about. You do need to think about which rod you are using but, 6011 and 7018 will do most work on steel that a hobbyist would be interested in doing. If you get more adventurous though you will have to learn about the different rods. Size of rod is largely related to size of work. Some people can make stick welds look good, but for most casual welders stick is mostly about sticking parts together, not appearance. Hey if you have a grinder you can make almost any weld look ok. Stick welders are also by far the cheapest option.

MIG is just a little more set up than Stick, work needs to be a little cleaner, and you need to remember to turn on the gas (you will figure that out real fast when you get black sooty crap welds). On steel you can run straight CO2 (cheap) or a 75/25 CO2 Argon mix (provides better quality welds, but costs more), I suppose some switch gases depending on the project, using cheap gas for welds that don't need to be as pretty, but I expect most either go cheap and run CO2 or pay more and use the mixed gas on everything. For the most part you don't have to change your wire size / material, but you do need to set the machine for the thickness of the material you are welding, power and wire speed. You may want to change the size if you have a big project with very thin or thick metal, but other wise most will stick with the wire size best for their usual work.
Most people find MIG to be the easiest type of welding, but this can be misleading as you can have a decent looking but bad (low strength) weld with MIG much more easily than with other types of welding. To do something other than steel, you may need to change you gas, and or type of wire.
Flux core is basically gasless MIG (by definition MIG uses gas, but that is getting pedantic). You can think of it as stick welding with wire feed. Some like it, but most who have a MIG welder prefer to use gas and solid wire. Flux core only welders can be very cheap, but they also tend to be very cheap (low quality).

TIG is generally agreed to be the most difficult. It also take a lot more prep time, a lot more. When I took a MIG welding class, I probably got 2-3 hours of welding done out of a 4 hour session. When I took TIG, I probably got 1/3 to 1/2 as much time actually welding, the rest of the time was prep, grinding my tungsten, and cleaning my metal (usually would grind 3 or 4 tungsten electrodes to speed up changes when I invariably dipped my tungsten in the pool). TIG is very precise and versatile but it is very unforgiving of errors. TIG is also the most expensive, the machines cost more, it uses more expensive gas, you have to by tungsten electrodes (not super expensive but an added cost) and you will need a dedicated grinder for tungsten.

I think it is fair to say the majority of hobby welders who only do one kind of welding go for a MIG welder, with a smaller portion choosing stick. Stick is cheap and simple, but for most has a steeper learning curve than MIG. I think most who go with TIG have a very specific reason for choosing it. Of course many hobby welders have multiple processes available.

Not even getting into oxy-fuel welding which is really kind of its own thing, and quite different from arc welding.

As far as machines that can do it all? Lots of (most?) TIG welders can also stick weld. Most MIG welders are single function. This is because MIG welders work differently than Stick / TIG. In the past few years multi-process MIG / Stick, MIG / Stick / TIG, and even some combining plasma cutting have become a thing. Most of the MIG / Stick / TIG machines are DC only which means they can not TIG weld aluminum. They may be able to MIG weld with a spool gun or stick weld aluminum. A few have introduced AC/DC multi process machines (at a minimum Miller has a couple now and ESAB has at least one) which can TIG weld aluminum. 
A multi-process machine is in most cases literally two welders in one machine so they do cost more, the AC/DC multi-process machines cost quite a bit more.        

As with any combination machine there are pros and cons to putting it all in one machine. I have a Miller 220 AC/DC multi-process machine and I couldn't be happier with it.


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## graham-xrf

Aaron_W said:


> You are in the UK so that is going to make some difference, in what machines are available, and you don't have the 120v or 240v issue many here trying to keep it cheap have. Everything is 240v over there I think.


Thank you for the expansive answer. I'm sure what you wrote will be appreciated by many others.
Yes, the UK voltage is nominally 235V, and can vary by some percentage. Years ago, with voltages actually used in Europe 220V (Spain) and up to 240V (UK) it was all about the percentage tolerance. They got around it by choosing 235V tolerance 10%, so everybody could keep going with what they had, without changing anything.

235VAC runs half the current and quarter the line losses as USA type 115VAC mains. Line voltage drop is still a real issue for me, because future shop outbuilding is going to need about 40m of SWA buried feed run, and the source already has about 8m from the consumer unit. I plan to use 10mm2, which should be fine.


> I think it is fair to say the majority of hobby welders who only do one kind of welding go for a MIG welder, with a smaller portion choosing stick. Stick is cheap and simple, but for most has a steeper learning curve than MIG. I think most who go with TIG have a very specific reason for choosing it. Of course many hobby welders have multiple processes available.


For welding up frames, bench parts, support structures, and the like, I can see that stick can be convenient. When one has to weld something round to something else possibly also round, and finish the part on a lathe,  I imagine things may need a bit of care. We don't want to put up with a spotty bodge with slag inclusions ever, not even on a bit of casual bracket on a frame, but getting it wrong has less consequence, and making it right is easier than on something where you have to start over.


> As far as machines that can do it all? Lots of (most?) TIG welders can also stick weld. Most MIG welders are single function. This is because MIG welders work differently than Stick / TIG. In the past few years multi-process MIG / Stick, MIG / Stick / TIG, and even some combining plasma cutting have become a thing. Most of the MIG / Stick / TIG machines are DC only which means they can not TIG weld aluminum. They may be able to MIG weld with a spool gun or stick weld aluminum. A few have introduced AC/DC multi process machines (at a minimum Miller has a couple now and ESAB has at least one) which can TIG weld aluminum.
> A multi-process machine is in most cases literally two welders in one machine so they do cost more, the AC/DC multi-process machines cost quite a bit more.
> As with any combination machine there are pros and cons to putting it all in one machine. I have a Miller 220 AC/DC multi-process machine and I couldn't be happier with it.


Although we (Hobby Machinist) types do aspire to working up the best we can with what we make/fix, many are retired, and most want to be able use their kit when they need it, without a recurring cost that would only make sense if they were using it a lot, and indefinitely. That is why I was asking about "gas or gasless".  Is not "gasless" simply what we have known for the better part of a century as "stick weld", with a flux on the outside of the rod to make a slag over the weld and general effusion to stop the oxygen?

It would be OK to own the gas bottle. Having a regular hire charge when the welder is stood for some months until the next period of more intensive use occurs seems a less happy arrangement.

From the little (stick) I have done, I have to "imagine" where the weld pool really is somewhere under the top blob of molten slag, which is all I can see. Getting it to "start" nicely is a bit fraught, especially if the weld is any place other than horizontal, flat, in front of me. I thought MIG, or anything with gas might be a better experience. I know with enough skill, you can do pretty much anything with stick. The whole reason we have all these other ways involving gas is because of how difficult it is otherwise. Getting really good welds more easily done is surely why we spend on gas-assisted.


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## Lo-Fi

Fur what it's worth: I had a mate argue til he was blue in the face that flux core MIG is "just as good". He's super cheap. Forced a decent gas MIG into his hand... Needless to say, he hasn't looked back and has totally reversed his opinion. 









						Hobbyweld | Home of the Original Rent Free Gas Cylinders
					

Hobbyweld supply a range of Rent Free Gas Cylinders, ideal for DIY and light trade welding and gas applications. Stop the rental and start saving today!




					hobbyweld.co.uk
				




No rental charge. Just a 100% refundable bottle deposit. Refills are reasonable too and there are agents literally everywhere UK wide.


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## graham-xrf

addertooth said:


> If you don't see yourself doing a welding project about once every month or two, AND welding steel meets your needs.
> Consider buying a cheap 110 Volt "flux core welder".  I have a couple of them, and for welding up tables they work just fine.
> I would gladly weld metal up to 5/16th with them (without worrying about grinding grooves or channels beforehand).


When you say "flux core" is what I am curious about. The rods I have seen have the flux on the outside. Is "flux core" what supplies the gas in "gasless"


> This may go with your wiring upgrade plan, as the WHERE of your welder can be just as important as finding a way to plug it in.  I dealt with my "where" by purchasing a 40 foot extension cord made with 8 gauge wire.  Borrow a buddy's flux core wire welder, and have him give you some tips on how to use it.


Welding often needs to be done here, then there, then entirely elsewhere. That's the whole reason the bigger ones get given wheels. I will have thick enough SWA cable to the shop. Any cable to the welder longer than from the cable supplied will have a fat gauge extension.


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## graham-xrf

Lo-Fi said:


> Fur what it's worth: I had a mate argue til he was blue in the face that flux core MIG is "just as good". He's super cheap. Forced a decent gas MIG into his hand... Needless to say, he hasn't looked back and has totally reversed his opinion.
> 
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> Hobbyweld | Home of the Original Rent Free Gas Cylinders
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> Hobbyweld supply a range of Rent Free Gas Cylinders, ideal for DIY and light trade welding and gas applications. Stop the rental and start saving today!
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> hobbyweld.co.uk
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> No rental charge. Just a 100% refundable bottle deposit. Refills are reasonable too and there are agents literally everywhere UK wide.


Many thanks. You replied while I was typing. I am guessing that you are UK based, because you sent me the link to UK-based welder supplier, and Hobbyweld appears also to be UK, although in Newcastle - pretty much other end of the country relative to me, but I will be looking for the local agent. That we can have the convenience of a deposit charge bottle with no time restraint on how long one keeps the bottle sure opens up the choice of welder I get from the beginning. I see this place also does that arrangement for oxy-acetylene. This business seems to fill the market need, instead of fixed hire from British Oxygen, and Air-Products.

That we can have this here must mean similar can be had in USA/Canada. You can likely have an Argon bottle without recurring hire charge!


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## addertooth

Graham-xrf,

Yes, when I said Flux-core, I was referring to a machine which looks like a MIG welder, except it does not use bottled gas.  The welding "wire" it uses is actually a "tube", which has flux in the core.  As it heats up, not only is flux released, but the high heat converts the flux in the center and produces gasses which help shield the weld puddle as well (not to the level of a real MIG welder).  However, what has not been mentioned is the fact that flux core wire welders are much more friendly to use outside (a building) than classical MIG/TIG welders.  When Using a classical MIG/TIG welder, your "shielding gas" (CO2, CO2/Argon, Argon, Helium) can get blown away by an outside breeze.  It is the pocket of protective shield gasses which prevents the weld from getting ugly.  When that pocket of gas gets blown away, it produces a result inferior to flux-core wire welding.  This means welding "location of use" matters. If you intend to ALWAYS weld inside, then Gas-Using welders (MIG/TIG) are excellent. Flux-core welders are inside/outside welders. There is no question that gas using welder produce a "prettier weld", However, until you develop some skill, don't always trust pretty.  Do some practice welds and then cut into them afterwards to inspect the quality of the weld.  In the USA, a lot of farmers prefer Stick welding with flux-coated rods, as much of what they weld (farm equipment), has thick metal, AND they frequently must do their repairs outside.

I got started with stick welding, as it was a very economical way to get started.  Many years later I got a flux-core wire welder (which to the casual observer looks like a MIG machine, but without the gas cylinder).  For thin stuff (5/16th inch 8mm) or thinner, it works rather well. There is no question using a gas welder would produce prettier welds which would not require a wire brush to clean off the surface slag.  Flux-Core welders are (for the most part) welding steel.  Gas welders open the door to weld other materials, such as aluminum, or with TIG, even titanium.  I have seen skilled TIG welders do amazing things, such as weld two thin-walled beer cans side to side with each other (that was the employment proficiency test in a shop I worked in for people who claimed to be TIG welders).  This task was made more difficult, as they were not allowed to do surface prep.  A blow-through, or a bad weld was a fail. 

My main caution is that so many people buy welding equipment which does not match their eventual needs.  Getting started with something cheap gives you time to get a feel for what your needs actually are.  It gives you a chance to figure out your scale of use.  It gives you time to sort out other details  as well (location, grinder/wire brushes, Helmet, gloves, apron, welding table, clamps, etc).  If you learn to weld correctly on a low-end machine, your welds on a  high end machine will just be better.  In the past I have been guilty of buying the tip-top super version of a tool, only to discover I only needed a fraction of the capability.  This experience has made me cautious, and now I tend to dip my toe in something new, before taking the full plunge.  Oh, and the cheap welders can frequently be sold for about 3/4 of their purchase price, as it seems that the market for inexpensive welders is always an active one.

Some day I may get one of the high end, water cooled TIG rigs, which is multi-process, and can do MIG and Plasma cutting... but for now, those are not critical needs for me. Figure out your real needs, before opening your wallet.   I realize this advice is the opposite you frequently get in this group, which will frequently suggests you buy the maximum.  If you do decide to get a super-machine, then some welding classes would be merited, so you gain the full value of the equipment you purchased.

Best of luck with your choices, I know they are not easy.

                 Addertooth.


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## 7milesup

Addertooth...

It is my understanding that you can run flux core wire in any MIG welder, even if the MIG welder can run gas.  Just turn the gas off.  Am I wrong?  Seems to me I remember doing that at one point (I don't own a MIG welder, just a Lincoln 200 TIG), but I have run MIG a number of times.

Stick welding....   Stick welding is actually rather difficult to do it correctly.  Also Graham, stick welding is VERY messy.  It develops a lot of splatter and a LOT of smoke due to the flux being on the outside and "burning" off.   I only stick weld outside.  

Welcome to the deep rabbit hole of welding.  A whole 'nother hobby...


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## Lo-Fi

No worries  I think I knew from a previous thread that you're this side of the pond. We're a little few and far between compared to our friends the other side, so thought I'd be able to help out with UK links, particularly with the gas. Shame we're other ends of the country!

I've been using hobbyweld for years myself. It's something like £55 for an argo-shield bottle for MIG, and £65 for pure argon for TIG refills. Bottle deposit was something around £70 if memory serves. If you weld infrequently, a mid size bottle will likely last you a year. Regulators around the £25 mark have been quite satisfactory for me.

I have that Lincoln hood myself, btw, having gone through many lower priced. R-Tech also make something very decent, but half the price:









						R-Tech Auto True Colour HD XXL Welding Helmet
					

R-Tech True Colour HD XXL Welding Helmet. See realistic colours when welding for only £99, FREE spare lenses, Next Day UK delivery




					www.r-techwelding.co.uk
				




I own both, but the Lincoln is actually worth it if you're not too budget conscious. The clarity is unreal and I've never once had it not trigger when welding low amps. Though I got my ISO9606 coding on MIG using the R-Tech, come to think of it!


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## graham-xrf

Lo-Fi said:


> No worries  I think I knew from a previous thread that you're this side of the pond. We're a little few and far between compared to our friends the other side, so thought I'd be able to help out with UK links, particularly with the gas. Shame we're other ends of the country!
> 
> I've been using hobbyweld for years myself. It's something like £55 for an argo-shield bottle for MIG, and £65 for pure argon for TIG refills. Bottle deposit was something around £70 if memory serves. If you weld infrequently, a mid size bottle will likely last you a year. Regulators around the £25 mark have been quite satisfactory for me.
> 
> I have that Lincoln hood myself, btw, having gone through many lower priced. R-Tech also make something very decent, but half the price:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> R-Tech Auto True Colour HD XXL Welding Helmet
> 
> 
> R-Tech True Colour HD XXL Welding Helmet. See realistic colours when welding for only £99, FREE spare lenses, Next Day UK delivery
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.r-techwelding.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I own both, but the Lincoln is actually worth it if you're not too budget conscious. The clarity is unreal and I've never once had it not trigger when welding low amps. Though I got my ISO9606 coding on MIG using the R-Tech, come to think of it!


Firstly, thanks also to @addertooth. The usage inside/outside is a valuable point. Indeed, the whole thing is a great explanation to help fit the choice to one's needs. Its awkward. I recognize that having some expensive, top line kit with all sorts of capabilities you never use, and maybe you only use the kit occasionally, is not a smart thing to do. At the other end, I have at times purchased cheap, thinking it only had to fill an immediate need, and could be useful later, if only to learn on - and regretted it. I have had all sorts of stuff where I bought cheap, and had to buy twice. I have stuff which, though functional, I wished I had bought better. My cheapo metal detector which found my lost wedding ring in the grass outside the door maybe should have gone the way of de-clutter long ago! It did the job, so owes me nothing, but is far from what I would want.

I searched this forum, thinking that a thread just like this must surely have existed. Maybe it does, but all the comment here so far has been rock-solid informative.
- - - - - - - - - - -
I will likely get the Lincoln hood, from your link or something very like it. I will probably never need another.
I have found the local Hobbyweld gas agent. I will be doing that.

It seems that if one has an outside job, in the wind, it can be done with the gas-core flux in a regular MIG welder.
Thinking through the science logic here, provided it is possible to get a connection to the power without running a wire feed, then in principle, stick welding could be done by a fundamentally MIG machine.

TIG makes a plasma arc for the heat, but in hand feed technique, seems similar to oxy-acetylene, though without the effect of unburned gases in the metal. I suppose a correct adjusted neutral flame gets over that, but it seems to me that TIG would give the cleanest weld. MIG looks like it has the minimum effect on heating up the surrounding metal area.

[Edit - There is also MAG mentioned in the video - still decoding that]!


----------



## kb58

1. Stick, MIG, TIG? Can any welder do more than one? TIG is the most versatile, can even do brazing and stick welding (on some).
2. Gas, or gasless? What's the deal there? Gasless is mostly only on the low(est) end MIG machines. That said, it can be useful if you have to fix something out in the middle of nowhere and don't want to lug around a gas bottle.
3. How many amps for HM-style hobby use, if generally about 1/4" or maybe 5/16" angle, or common box sections up to about 50mm square is what we expect? 200 amps will do most anything, though thicker aluminum takes a ton of current. That said, it's actually more important about how _low _the amps can go before cutting off. It's not an option when welding thin material to have very low amps.
4. Helmet - features essential. Self-darkening, for sure. In general, you get what you pay for.
5. Inverter or transformer? Inverter I guess. I decode IGBT to mean "Insulated Gate Bipolar Transistor". Depends. If it stays in the shop, either is fine. Only if it has to be moved a far distance does the inverter have an advantage. Note that the advantage is diminished because most welders have a very short power cord, in addition to the tanks and chiller make the inverter advantage even less so.
6. Which YouTube reviews are really useful? No recommendations there.
7.HF Ignition? How does that work? Definitely, else you have to touch the electrode to the work. It works by overlaying a brief ~10,000V pulse onto the electrode, causing it to arc to the work, which initiates the main arc.
8. Torch cooling - water or air, or don't need to bother? Needed only if you weld for any amount of time (think, "5 minutes or so). Without cooling, the torch handle will get hotter and hotter with use. Without cooling, it'll eventually become too hot to hold. I"ve used both and like a cooled setup, but it all depends upon its use.
9. Given I am in UK, and in current circumstances have to use online ordering, the only common point in finding respected brands is Amazon or eBay (perhaps). There are outlets in UK for traditional established brands e.g. Lincoln or similar.
10. Are there types, or indeed brands, that one should avoid? Avoid any units in the bottom ~35% of the price spectrum.
11. Is there a (low) price point where one may reasonably suspect the quality is likely to be crap? The price range for similar-looking welders can be huge. The relationship between price, and current rating is (sort of) there, but with huge variance. Same answer.
12. I even see a Hyundai claiming MIG TIG ARC MMA, apparently all in one. So is there such a thing as "one welder does all"? Better TIG machines do both AC and DC, so you can weld aluminium (tip of the hat to you brits  Some also have the ability to stick weld.
13. Other than gloves and auto-darken helmet, is there a list of other kit that can be considered essential? Gas bottles (get two so you don't run out when the gas shop is closed), hoses, regulator, torch kit, cooler (maybe), cart, etc.

Don't overlook buying a used high-end machine, but I have to admit that didn't work out for me, as people keep the good machines pretty much forever, so I ended up buying a new Miller Syncrowave 250 about 22 years ago. No regrets.

Lastly, if at all possible, stick with the 220-240V versions. While some "can" work on lower voltage, it's never very well.

My welder was used for building both from-scratch cars in my signature


----------



## graham-xrf

Along with 2 files, hacksaw and a big hammer, I guess we have to add angle grinder (got one) and pointy slag chipping hammer (seen one on video).
Is there a science behind the handle with the bulb-shaped grip made out of a spring?
I guess either good ventilation or 3M mask. I think the fumes are probably not good for you.


----------



## Lo-Fi

I've only ever seen pro stick welders use the end of a file you're supposed to put in a handle to chip slag!

I _think_ it's just a handle you can't set fire to and doesn't weigh a ton. I own one, but never use.


----------



## Asm109

Just to clarify one thing.  Tig welders can do traditional Stick welding. The power supplies are the same.  MIG power supplies are different and you do not stick weld with a MIG box.


----------



## kb58

graham-xrf said:


> Along with 2 files, hacksaw and a big hammer, I guess we have to add angle grinder (got one) and pointy slag chipping hammer (seen one on video).
> Is there a science behind the handle with the bulb-shaped grip made out of a spring?
> I guess either good ventilation or 3M mask. I think the fumes are probably not good for you.


All true, but TIG welders generate no slag, no fumes (for clean metal), and I've never once used an angle grinder on TIG welds!


----------



## graham-xrf

kb58 said:


> All true, but TIG welders generate no slag, no fumes (for clean metal), and I've never once used an angle grinder on TIG welds!


That sir - is an awesome weld!


----------



## DavidR8

+1 on never needing to grind a TIG weld. Except when I put an assembly together incorrectly.


----------



## graham-xrf

DavidR8 said:


> +1 on never needing to grind a TIG weld. Except when I put an assembly together incorrectly.


David - is your Primeweld MIG or TIG?
While we are here, have you recovered from when you got flashed?


----------



## addertooth

7MilesUP,
You are correct, you can run flux core wire in a regular MIG rig.   Usually my only caution on this is to back off the pressure point which presses the wire against the turning wheel which feeds the wire.  Flux core wire is easier to crush (because it is not a solid wire), and will then curl when exiting the gun if the pressure is too high. 

Arc weld splatter from a Stick welder can be *reduced* by making sure your rig can do DC, and getting the polarity correct.  Get it backwards, or use an AC welder, and you get more spatter.  Also, anti-spatter spray makes it so spatter does not adhere to the adjacent metal as easily (I don't actually use it very often, but I have a can of it should I feel the need).  My right-angle grinder knocks all those little BBs of steel off rather easily without using anti-spatter spray. Those little BBs of steel, when ground away, tend to fly off very fast, make sure your debris coming off the grinding wheel is not faced towards anything you don't want to strike with those little high-speed balls of steel.  

The final hint is on the hood itself.  Most of the auto-darkening hoods are adjustable.  If the darkening is set too high, it will be hard to visualize the "puddle", and your weld will markedly suffer due to the visibility limitation. 

Okay, more more hint.  Surface preparation is king.  Grind away any rust or milling scale off the metal before you weld for the best possible joint.  When constructing tables, steel is less forgiving than wood, dimensions should be watch more carefully than wood, and squareness of cut becomes more vital when building tables for machining equipment.


----------



## DavidR8

graham-xrf said:


> David - is your Primeweld MIG or TIG?
> While we are here, have you recovered from when you got flashed?


My Primeweld is an AC & DC TIG (and stick) machine. 225 amps. Works like a dream. The operator is questionable though.
The flash was not really a flash in the truest sense of the word. The hood was still down, but I was pulse welding under bright'ish lights so as the arc subsided between pulses the helmet didn't think there was a need to be dark. After much investigation on Welding Web and Welding Tip and Tricks I learned that low amperage TIG is a challenge because the arc isn't always sufficiently bright to trigger the autodark.

In addition to my TIG machine I also have an older 110v Millermatic 130 MIG machine that I use with argon/co2. It works really well.


----------



## samstu

I'm a fan of older professional units (not gonna guess which brand that would be across the pond).  These are often free or low cost and are relatively simple to repair and maintain. A quick welder project is also fun if you want to understand how a welder operates.  A used well-sorted machine is often superior to lower cost budget units.  If it turns that welding isn't your thing, a used machine won't loose anything in value.


----------



## ArmyDoc

graham-xrf said:


> I know I am late to the party here. I tried searching and reading - until I dozed out!
> The sheer number of brands, types features, jargon and prices. Reviews that are good, reviews that are biased, reviews that are unfair/incompetent/irrelevant, is only part of what we face.
> 
> No - I do not want to see a YT video of the "unboxing" of some dude's latest sponsored toy! I am thinking the only way through might have to resort to  Baysian weighted attributes decision tree analysis, but before I go slowly crazy, I think there are some yes/no choices that can match to one's needs and budget. There are features that have abbreviations that need translation before even discussing whether one needs it or not. I start from nothing, other than that I remember @DavidR8 bought a Primeweld and a Esab mask.
> 
> 1. Stick, MIG, TIG? Can any welder do more than one?  *MIG is probably easiest to learn.  Yes, there are multiprocess machines that can do more than one thing.  The Lincoln 210 MP is a nice machine that can do stick, MIG and DC TIG.  (It can't do AC TIG though, AC TIG is needed for aluminum, though you can do aluminum with MIG and special wire and gas)*
> 2. Gas, or gasless? What's the deal there?  *MIG and TIG require gass (that's what the G stands for) Stick and flux core don't use gass, they have flux in the stick or wire that serves the same purpose, but they also produce dirtier welds (more slag) that has to be cleaned off.*
> 3. How many amps for HM-style hobby use, if generally about 1/4" or maybe 5/16" angle, or common box sections up to about 50mm square is what we expect?  *Depends on thickness and material, but for 14# I would look in the 180-210 range.  The machine specs will list capabilities.*
> 4. Helmet - features essential. What are they? * Welders masks come in two main flavors, Fixed-shade (glass is always dark) and autodarkening.  Don't cheap out, get a good one your eyes can't be replaced.*
> 5. Inverter or transformer? Inverter I guess. Only from what I know about electronics, I decode IGBT to mean "Insulated Gaste Bipolar Transistor".
> 6. Which YouTube reviews are really useful? *This old tony has some nice ones on TIG*
> 7.HF Ignition? How does that work? *This is for TIG.  High freq ignition alows you to start the arc without touching the electrode to the material.  Lift start, you start touching and when you lift up, the arc is created.*
> 8. Torch cooling - water or air, or don't need to bother? What is needed? * More TIG related, I think.  Depends on how much you are doing.  For smaller projects, air cooled is fine.  If your working for a few hours straight, water cooled.*
> 9. Given I am in UK, and in current circumstances have to use online ordering, the only common point in finding respected brands is Amazon or eBay (perhaps). There are outlets in UK for traditional established brands e.g. Lincoln or similar. *Lincoln is a good brand, Miller is another.  My son is a welder.  He uses Lincoln.*
> 10. Are there types, or indeed brands, that one should avoid?  *I'm sure there are...  If you stick with Lincoln or Miller, you will be unlikely to go wrong.*
> 11. Is there a (low) price point where one may reasonably suspect the quality is likely to be crap? The price range for similar-looking welders can be huge. The relationship between price, and current rating is (sort of) there, but with huge variance.  *Really depends on how hard you are going to push the machine.  For hobbiests, you won't be welding for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week.  Look at duty cycle for your anticipated current (based on what you expect to weld)  Some machines will have a 20% duty cycle - that' 10 min continuous and 40 min cool down, others will have a 60% (30 min continuous, 20 cooldown) and still others 100% at the highest setting.  More money usually brings a better duty cycle.  Duty cycle varies by type of welding and power level, with different makers reporting differently, which can make it hard to compare machines.*
> 12. I even see a Hyundai claiming MIG TIG ARC MMA, apparently all in one. So is there such a thing as "one welder does all"?  *There are multiprocess machines, but I'm not aware of any that does "Everything" equally well.  We settled on the Lincoln 210MP, which is a multiprocess machine.  Never bought the DC TIG head, because that would also mean we need a different gas cylendar.  So, would we have been better off with a cheaper single process machine?  Maybe.  But I want to learn TIG next, and I can learn DC TIG on this machine when I want to so...*
> 13. Other than gloves and auto-darken helmet, is there a list of other kit that can be considered essential?  *Clamps, slag hammer, plyers, soapstone marking tool, wire brush, angle grinder, band saw*
> 14. Finally, is there some hope that we can figure out something like a "HM fine and respected" list?



*Here is a spread sheet I made a couple years ago looking at several machines.  Prices are probably out of date, but the specs are probably still accurate.  Hope it helps.  Best of luck to you.

edit:  Hmm.  It doesn't let me upload excell spread sheets, so I put it into a word file.  Pring the pages and lay them side by side*


----------



## ArmyDoc

graham-xrf said:


> When you say "flux core" is what I am curious about. The rods I have seen have the flux on the outside. Is "flux core" what supplies the gas in "gasless"


Flux core is what it sounds like, the flux is in the center of the wire... the core is made of flux rather than metal.


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## Buffalo21

I see flux-core being used on an almost daily basis, a lot of outdoor structural weld is done with flux-core.  They are using .068” and larger wire and weld in the 300-400+ amp range, a whole different scenario than using flux-core in a home shop

most home mig welders can run flux-core, all you have to do is change the machine-gun polarity


----------



## Aaron_W

MIG and MAG are basically the same thing just more specific terms based on the gas being used. Fluxcore is basically Stick welding (SMAW) using a wire feed instead of rods. MIG you are using a shielding gas so no flux is needed, and you use a solid alloy steel wire. Fluxcore is like stick but instead of having the flux on the outside, the wire is hollow, with the flux inside the wire. Kind of like flux core solder. In the hobby shop, flux core is usually used because it is cheap. In industry there are other uses for it. It is less susceptible to wind blowing the shielding gas away, and there are times where they use flux core wire and a shielding gas (dual shield welding), this is probably way beyond what most home welders ever have a need for but with a MIG welder, you could do it if you had the need. Really inexpensive flux core welders are basically just a MIG welder without a gas inlet. This saves them money, as there are no gas components, and they don't have to include a regulator. This also saves some weight, so even people with a good welder will occasionally buy a small cheapo Flux core as a very mobile repair welder. Harbor Freight sells a little 125amp flux core welder that only weighs 15lbs. Add a 100 foot extension cord and that is a pretty mobile little welder for light repairs. 


So on the MIG vs the Stick, just my opinion on why MIG is easier for most. All the focus is on the puddle. Is your gap right, is the wire feeding the right speed, are you following your line etc. The wire just keeps feeding, no stopping until you want to. It seems like with Stick just as I start to get into a groove, it is time to change rods. Unless you run tiny spools, or weld an huge amount, you rarely run out of wire. I started out with a small 2lb spool, and that got me through several medium size projects. I replaced it with an 11lb spool, I might need to get the book out to remember how to change it when it is time.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Also since you set the wire feed speed, you are also sort of setting your welding speed. Really watching your puddle is the best way to determine your speed but it is an extra hint that you don't get with Stick which is all on you.

Probably even more, starting and restarting is much easier with MIG, just pull the trigger and go. With Stick some rods can be really fussy to get started, and when you stop you have to clean up your weld again removing the slag before you get going again or you risk getting slag into your weld.
Since MIG is a cleaner process and the shielding gas replaces the flux and associated gas you can weld an and inch, stop and look at your work, weld another 2 inches, stop and evaluate. Being able to conveniently weld in short bits helps keep you on the right path, and can help with warping. If I have a long weld I will usually tack the ends, then do a bit in the middle, then move to one end, move to the other end, back to the middle. This spreads out the heat, and piece by piece secures the part I'm welding, both of which help to prevent the part from warping. You could do the same with Stick, but it would take a lot longer having to clean off the slag every time you move to a new spot.



Something I haven't seen mentioned is the interface with the welder. The cheaper MIG and flux core welders just have a knob with preset clicks, usually numbered, 1,2,3 etc. These change both the power and the wire feed speed with one knob, easy to use but very little room for adjustment, you are stuck with the preset values.

A step up from this you have the same style of preset "clicks" but with separate knobs for power and speed so a little more control. Next step, you have continually variable adjustment with 2 knobs (think of these as a lathe using belts to control speed vs one with a variable speed motor).

Then you get into the machines with a digital display, these tend to offer more precise control, and where the knobs might have just given you numerical value (1-10 etc), or possibly an approximate range, now you get a very specific value 153 volts, 257 inches / minute so you can make sure to use the exact same setting when you come back to a job. 
Yes voltage, I mentioned MIG was different than TIG and Stick. You don't set amperage on MIG / fluxcore machines, you set the voltage and wire speed, the amperage used is a result of those two values. MIG machines are still rated by amps though.


Many of the newer machines also offer helpers. My Miller has an autoset feature, so I can dial in the thickness of the metal, type of metal, and the diameter of the wire, and the machine gives me the appropriate set up. I can then fine tune it from there, but it is a handy feature and I find it is usually pretty spot on (better than my welding anyway).

Invertor vs transformer was briefly mentioned. The two most sited differences are weight and longevity. Transformers are pretty bullet proof, solid state electronics with not much to go wrong with them. They are also much heavier. I can't find specs for the older transformer Miller 211 to compare with the new inverter Miller 211, but ad copy claimed a 40% reduction in weight (the current weighs 38lbs, so the old one probably weighed around 52lbs?

Inverter machines are all electronic, so they are more delicate, and have more ways they can fail. Inverter machines can do things that simply were are possible with transformers. The more complex the machine, the more the difference between transformer and inverter. A Stick machine is probably 90% weight savings, with a TIG machine there may be features on a "cheap" TIG welder that top of the line transformer machines are incapable of.

Insert argument for a 1960's car with a carburetor vs a modern car with computer controlled everything, change the argument to welders and you are set.


----------



## erikmannie

If I were to learn welding all over again, I would definitely start with oxyacetylene welding, brazing & torch cutting. I would buy quality, name brand equipment (I like Victor). I find gas welding to be very relaxing. Gas welding is a good choice for thin (e.g. .020”-.090”) material.

Then I would move on to stick welding. I prefer a transformer machine, but inverter is fine and easier to move around. An AC/DC machine that goes up to 200-250A is enough for almost anything. I find stick welding to be very enjoyable! You won’t stick weld on any material less than .063” thickness.

Then I would learn TIG. I would choose a name brand (I like Miller) AC/DC inverter machine that can put out up to 200-210A. I strongly recommend buying a machine that is capable of pulse. A TIG machine is also capable of stick welding, so if you plan ahead you can buy the one machine and start with stick. TIG is very clean. I almost always choose TIG for aluminum, SS and Ti.

Finally, if you still had time, money and interest, then you could get a MIG machine. This would allow you to do GMAW (“MIG”), FCAW (“flux core”) and a spool gun (“MIG aluminum”). I have a Millermatic 252 which happens to be a transformer machine. This is a very good choice for a MIG machine. I choose MIG when I am in a hurry. If you enjoy a challenge, MIG may disappoint you.

I recommend the Welding Tips & Tricks podcast. My favorite welding YouTuber is Bob Moffatt.


----------



## kb58

Buffalo21 said:


> I see flux-core being used on an almost daily basis, a lot of outdoor structural weld is done with flux-core.  They are using .068” and larger wire and weld in the 300-400+ amp range, a whole different scenario than using flux-core in a home shop
> 
> most home mig welders can run flux-core, all you have to do is change the machine-gun polarity


It's messy and smoky, and outdoors that doesn't matter, like putting together a steel fence. But, working in a shop is often a different kettle of fish, where finesse becomes important. MIG welding with flux core is like an axe, and TIG welding is like a scalpel. Both have their uses.


----------



## NortonDommi

Some real solid info there *addertooth.   *I am a fan of learning to weld using Oxy/Acet because you learn a lot about how metal of different gauges/ thickness reacts to heat.
  2nd would be MMA/SMAW/stick/arc welding as there is a rod for just about anything and even a small cheap AC 'buzz box' can be used to do most jobs. Add a pulsing attachment like the Kel-Arc Stitch Welder and panel steel is a breeze, I think Easton sell one now.
  Arc also teaches you a LOT about control of the weld pool which is the base of good welding.  Sticks kept on top of the water heater last for years, no gas to worry about and ready to go whenever needed.  Small AC machines can easily be converted to AC/DC at low cost.  Welding DC teaches you about the effects of POLARITY. [Note: the single most common mistake when flux core MIG welding is people don't reverse the polarity from solid wire].
  3rd MIG is what we used to call 'Monkey welding' as in production work we could set the machine and get a novice up and running very quickly telling them to call us if anything went wrong.  Gas or Gasless the weld quality,(strength),is the same but wire quality can be a real issue with gasless plus gasless is messy.
 There are some good site on YouTube that are well worth looking at, one such is :    Weld.com - YouTube - YouTube  which has videos about all kinds of electric welding.


----------



## addertooth

Aaron_W said:


> Insert argument for a 1960's car with a carburetor vs a modern car with computer controlled everything, change the argument to welders and you are set.



Does this mean that old welding equipment is much cooler, and will attract more chicks, than modern equipment?


----------



## graham-xrf

ArmyDoc said:


> *Here is a spread sheet I made a couple years ago looking at several machines.  Prices are probably out of date, but the specs are probably still accurate.  Hope it helps.  Best of luck to you.
> 
> edit:  Hmm.  It doesn't let me upload excell spread sheets, so I put it into a word file.  Pring the pages and lay them side by side*


Thanks.
Re: Spreadsheets. It is really just about the file extension. Using an archiver to compress them into .ZIP works.
I suspect just leaving off the extension might work, but there could be confusion if people needed to re-name.
Certainly the upload does not like .xlsx files.


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## Aaron_W

addertooth said:


> Does this mean that old welding equipment is much cooler, and will attract more chicks, than modern equipment?



I think old cars are more likely to attract old guys...


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## addertooth

I can't entirely argue. There are more old car guys, than old car gals.


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## 7milesup

You can weld aluminum with MIG without a spool gun if you are careful and if the liner of the wire feed is in good shape.  Just don't have the wire feed  going to the gun curled up or bent.  It can be done.


----------



## FOMOGO

They have nylon liners for alum wire, but it can still be a sketchy deal. Spool gun is definitely the way to go if you can afford it, and prices have been coming down some. Mike


----------



## graham-xrf

@NortonDommi  : OK - so we know that straight AC welding is sparkier, and produces more spatter. By comparison, a DC weld is smoother, and goes on steadier. Yes  OK - addition of diode rectifier to a low cost transformer lets you have the choice.

Is there a right polarity? Which end should be positive? Does it not matter, just so long as it's DC?


----------



## addertooth

It super matters the polarity.  The the term is DCEN Direct Current Electrode Negative for flux core wire.

There are reasons and purposes for positive polarity. So this applies to typical flux wire welding.


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## Aaron_W

addertooth said:


> I can't entirely argue. There are more old car guys, than old car gals.



The harsh reality of this was brought home to me when I went car shopping with my wife.

Me: What are you looking for what do you like? (thinking maybe she has some idea of a particular car she likes).

Her: Maybe a blue one, and I want cup holders.

Me:


----------



## erikmannie

Regarding the bulb-shaped handle made out of a spring on many slag chippin’ hammers, I was just wondering about this myself last weekend. I found this online:

“The coiled spring handle provides maximum comfort by reducing impact sting.”

I had thought that it was for heat dissipation.


----------



## Liljoebrshooter

This thing is probably most hated tool I have owned.   Every time I used it my hand would hurt from trying to grip it.  I bought a nice wooden handle one and it is very nice.  You can also buy one with the chipping edge in either direction. 
As for a welder,  buy a good sized MIG and don't look back.   At some point you may need to weld a very thick piece or you want to start into aluminum and stainless,  then you can look into a TIG machine. 
Joe


----------



## NortonDommi

graham-xrf said:


> @NortonDommi  : OK - so we know that straight AC welding is sparkier, and produces more spatter. By comparison, a DC weld is smoother, and goes on steadier. Yes  OK - addition of diode rectifier to a low cost transformer lets you have the choice.
> 
> Is there a right polarity? Which end should be positive? Does it not matter, just so long as it's DC?


Depends on material being welded, type of rod, position. All manufacturers have the information readily available on their sites and with FCAW it is also on the box the rods come in.  Some rods are happy with anything the Blue Guys can run through some are very picky which way they run.  Bit of info here:    https://www.twi-global.com/technica...welding-which-electrode-polarity-should-i-use


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## erikmannie

Another case for starting with oxyacetylene: you get to skip any consideration of polarity.

SMAW: You sacrifice almost nothing by limiting yourself to E6010 and E7018. Under those circumstances, you could just leave your stick welder set to DCEP for your whole life.

TIG: DCEN for carbon steel, SS & Ti, and AC for aluminum.

MIG: DCEP.

FCAW: DCEN.

Some helpful tips:

(1) Learn that TIG on carbon steel is DCEN, and then remember that MIG is opposite of that.

(2) Here’s how it makes sense:

I first learned to weld with TIG on carbon steel (DCEN). The idea there is to put heat onto the base metal so that it will puddle. DCEN means “electrode negative”. The tungsten is the electrode so it has a negative charge. Thus, the workpiece has a positive charge. So all of the electrodes are attracted to the workpiece; this results in a bombardment of electrons on to the workpiece which causes heat (and puddling).

If you had your TIG machine set wrong, then the opposite would occur and you would be mostly serving to heat up your tungsten electrode. This would not help you get a puddle on your workpiece.


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## 7milesup

To me, Oxy-acetylene is a PITA.  Sure, it prepares you for TIG welding maybe, but in my opinion, just buy a TIG then.  For what it is worth, I have never seen anyone Oxy Acetylene aluminum together.


----------



## 7milesup

FOMOGO said:


> They have nylon liners for alum wire, but it can still be a sketchy deal. Spool gun is definitely the way to go if you can afford it, and prices have been coming down some. Mike


Correct.  All I said was it can be done without a spool gun.


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## erikmannie

Some people buy an economical AC stick welder (often a Lincoln Tombstone (buzzbox)) because they anticipate the need to run E6011 (for penetration and/or a dirty workpiece). The people with these machines will then run 7018AC for structural applications, and they also have the option of running E6013 for thinner workpieces.

A lot of DC stick machines don’t have enough open circuit voltage (“oomph”) to run E6010, but fortunately most or all machines will run E6011 no problem, and E6011 is almost as good as E6010.


----------



## erikmannie

7milesup said:


> To me, Oxy-acetylene is a PITA.  Sure, it prepares you for TIG welding maybe, but in my opinion, just buy a TIG then.  For what it is worth, I have never seen anyone Oxy Acetylene aluminum together.



If the OP has any aluminum in his near future then he is advised to start with a TIG welder!


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## FOMOGO

I learned to weld alum with OA  in 1970. To achieve fusion with any metal, all that is required is enough heat, and the proper clean and flux, and if thick enough, some preheat. Pick your poison, many ways to get the job done, and they all have their own up and down sides. Mike


----------



## Larry$

DavidR8 said:


> My Primeweld is an AC & DC TIG (and stick) machine. 225 amps. Works like a dream. The operator is questionable though.
> The flash was not really a flash in the truest sense of the word. The hood was still down, but I was pulse welding under bright'ish lights so as the arc subsided between pulses the helmet didn't think there was a need to be dark. After much investigation on Welding Web and Welding Tip and Tricks I learned that low amperage TIG is a challenge because the arc isn't always sufficiently bright to trigger the autodark.
> 
> In addition to my TIG machine I also have an older 110v Millermatic 130 MIG machine that I use with argon/co2. It works really well.


I've got one of those Little Millers also, seems to work better than it's operator. The limitation is how thick it can weld in a single pass. Sheet metal dust hoods 16 gage is my most common use. Works fine on thin, 1/8"+-. rectangular steel tubing.


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## graham-xrf

erikmannie said:


> If the OP has any aluminum in his near future then he is advised to start with a TIG welder!


Aluminum does not glow progressively with temperature like steel. It has a very high conductivity, and sinks away the heat very fast. Easier if the entire piece can be hot, but otherwise, it is hard to make enough temperature gradient to melt the pool with a flame. When the weld becomes possible, it is near the point where the whole lot will suddenly melt, and it is hard to judge the glow when that will happen. That said, I know a skilled oxy-acetylene welder can make beautiful welds in aluminium.

I think a TIG makes it's hot arc in a smaller region than a flame, but I haven't seen a TIG weld operation yet.

Thanks for your detail and links about polarity selection, DCEN, etc.  I recall that at some stage in this thread, it was mentioned that TIG was AC, and clearly there are some weld operations that require that. I never knew that 2/3 of the heat happens on the positive surface where the electrons land, and that polarity is reversed for operations that "clean" the surface, nor that some metals need it that way. That last one having to use special thicker tungstens and water cooling.

It also means that when considering TIG, the option to select DC polarity, or AC mode is a feature to check for when selecting a welder.

In reading about this, I am discovering there are deeper tricks..
The AC frequency can be something other than 50/60Hz, such as we get from a transformer.
The current can be pulsed, with a variable duty cycle.
The current can be servo loop controlled, millisecond by millisecond, as the weld pool varies.

I expect the welders we get are probably simpler things, but advanced electronics in welders is happening.


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## Liljoebrshooter

And the answer to any of these questions is how much do you want to spend? You cannot compare a $200 Harbor freight TIG buzz box to a $5000 Miller Prodigy. 
Joe


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## Lo-Fi

Checklist for a TIG machine:

AC mode: The cheap ones, and pretty much all the multi process machines, are DC only. This is fine for everything except ali. The only control you have to have is AC balance. Frequency, pulse and suchlike are nice to have but not essential.

HF start: this is for arc initiation. Lift or scratch start mean actually contacting the tungsten with the work and lifting it away to start the arc. The opposite of what you want to learn and pretty ugly. 

Foot pedal option: personally, I hate using a TIG torch with a button. The ergonomics don't make sense. Even using the pedal as an on/off switch is better than a button, and you can progress to using it for amperage control.

Personally, I respectfully don't agree with advice to gas weld first. It's a vile process by comparison to arc setups, and much as you _can_ vaguely learn puddle control with it, it doesn't really bear any relation to modern arc process skills. TIG if you count having to manually rod feed. It's also expensive for a poor process if you've not got oxy kit already. You might as well TIG right off the bat and skip it if.

A decent gas MIG will have you making passable welds in an afternoon with the aid of some YouTube research beforehand. For gluing stuff together in a hobby shop, it's absolute king. Turn on and pull the trigger.

TIG is a lot more to master... much more practice required just to get the coordination down, much more finicky setup, more gas and endless frustration regrinding tungstens you've dipped accidentally. Also painfully slow, requires absolute cleanliness, total concentration and a post yoga calm. You're pretty much tied to a bench and positional work is way beyond reach without a serious amount of torch time. That all being said, it's lovely, neat, quiet and very flexible. TIG brazing is a great process btw; I'm a big fan.


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## graham-xrf

Liljoebrshooter said:


> And the answer to any of these questions is how much do you want to spend? You cannot compare a $200 Harbor freight TIG buzz box to a $5000 Miller Prodigy.
> Joe


Exactly that was the basis of my question 11.
One answer I got was to avoid the bottom 35%.
I did not express a preference so that the thread could include all welders at any price, for the folk who might read it.

I do get it that there are some spectacular expensive welders, though nearly all do stuff inappropriate for hobby machining. There are some computer controlled things used in industry that can run to hundreds of thousands.

In all the welders I have seen in advertisements, one Hyundai "do everything" type I mentioned before was beyond £800. My thanks for expanding this perspective to $5000 region for the Miller Prodigy.

That one is definitely beyond what I would spend. My judgement does not have the price as the starting point. It begins with "what type of welding do I want to be doing, and what types are there to be doing it with". Then it leads on to usage frequency, and features, and starting to get an idea of other costs - the helmet, the gas, the safety gear, etc.

While taking in these options, I also get a feel for the price. I would likely not be going for a $200, or even $300 "bargain".
HF being USA based, we in UK would not likely import from them, but we have our fair share of low-priced & lower quality outlets.

The "look no further" suggestion from @Lo-Fi   for the R-Tech was £415 + VAT = £498, or $662. That would be a significant amount for me, but I am considering it. Mostly, I am just letting the information roll in. It has, so far, included loads of rock solid explanations about most aspects of welding.

--> *R-Tech's MIG 180*


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## Aaron_W

graham-xrf said:


> Exactly that was the basis of my question 11.
> One answer I got was to avoid the bottom 35%.
> I did not express a preference so that the thread could include all welders at any price, for the folk who might read it.
> 
> I do get it that there are some spectacular expensive welders, though nearly all do stuff inappropriate for hobby machining. There are some computer controlled things used in industry that can run to hundreds of thousands.
> 
> In all the welders I have seen in advertisements, one Hyundai "do everything" type I mentioned before was beyond £800. My thanks for expanding this perspective to $5000 region for the Miller Prodigy.
> 
> That one is definitely beyond what I would spend. My judgement does not have the price as the starting point. It begins with "what type of welding do I want to be doing, and what types are there to be doing it with". Then it leads on to usage frequency, and features, and starting to get an idea of other costs - the helmet, the gas, the safety gear, etc.
> 
> While taking in these options, I also get a feel for the price. I would likely not be going for a $200, or even $300 "bargain".
> HF being USA based, we in UK would not likely import from them, but we have our fair share of low-priced & lower quality outlets.
> 
> The "look no further" suggestion from @Lo-Fi   for the R-Tech was £415 + VAT = £498, or £662. That would be a significant amount for me, but I am considering it. Mostly, I am just letting the information roll in. It has, so far, included loads of rock solid explanations about most aspects of welding.
> 
> --> *R-Tech's MIG 180*




I have never even heard of that brand, but the specs are quite good. 498 pounds (don't know how to do the symbol) = $662 which puts it at a little less expensive than a Hobart 190 or Lincoln 180 which would be likely candidates for a decent under $1000 240v MIG welder over here. 60% duty cycle at 150 amps is very good for a machine in this class, the Lincoln and Hobart welders are 30% @ 130 A. That would actually compare well to my Miller 220 which is a heavier (220A), and much more expensive machine. 
Duty cycle is basically how much of a 10 minute period can you weld continuously, so 30% is 3 minutes out of 10 minutes. This may not sound like a lot, but this is actual welding time, and actively welding for 3 minutes straight would be rare in most home shops. At 60% you will probably never hit the duty cycle of that machine. 

I see it has the separate knobs for wire feed and power, but only noted with a scale of 1-10. Personally I prefer actual wire feed (inches / minute) and voltage but this seems to be common on machines at this price point and big picture "better" is probably just what one is used to using.


----------



## ahazi

7milesup said:


> Addertooth...
> 
> It is my understanding that you can run flux core wire in any MIG welder, even if the MIG welder can run gas.  Just turn the gas off.  Am I wrong?  Seems to me I remember doing that at one point (I don't own a MIG welder, just a Lincoln 200 TIG), but I have run MIG a number of times.
> 
> Stick welding....   Stick welding is actually rather difficult to do it correctly.  Also Graham, stick welding is VERY messy.  It develops a lot of splatter and a LOT of smoke due to the flux being on the outside and "burning" off.   I only stick weld outside.
> 
> Welcome to the deep rabbit hole of welding.  A whole 'nother hobby...


Yes, can be done. BUT... don't forget to *REVERSE THE POLARITY* when you are not using shield gas.

Ariel


----------



## Aaron_W

Lo-Fi said:


> Personally, I respectfully don't agree with advice to gas weld first. It's a vile process by comparison to arc setups, and much as you _can_ vaguely learn puddle control with it, it doesn't really bear any relation to modern arc process skills. TIG if you count having to manually rod feed. It's also expensive for a poor process if you've not got oxy kit already. You might as well TIG right off the bat and skip it if.



I will agree with those suggesting oxy/fuel as a very versatile process, welding, brazing, cutting, heating material etc. In an educational system it is a useful first step. It is also skill intensive, messy, requires bulky tanks, and a dedicated fire safe space to use it in. Any welder can start fires, but oxy/fuel is several steps further down the path of fire hazard than any arc welding process, only stick and plasma coming anywhere close. I don't think it is really appropriate in the average garage shop, except for the most dedicated.

While I would have oxy / fuel in my shop if I thought I wouldn't burn the house down (I would), I have to accept, open flame has to remain limited. I'd love to have a forge as well (still contemplating how to make that happen without the aforementioned standing over the smoking rubble of my home).


----------



## Lo-Fi

I have no experience with this brand, but this looks promising on a budget:









						Sherman® MIG 200 Speedy Welder IGBT Inverter 200A GAS GASLESS Welding FCAW ARC  | eBay
					

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Sherman® MIG 200 Speedy Welder IGBT Inverter 200A GAS GASLESS Welding FCAW ARC at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products!



					www.ebay.co.uk
				




To explain why:

"Euro Torch" connection. Basically industry standard connection for torches, meaning you can remove and indeed swap/upgrade easily. The cheap machines the to have proprietary torches just hanging out the front. 

Metal feed roller assembly. Rigidity matters here, it goes a long way to making smooth running, long lived assembly. 

Continuously adjustable feed and voltage. I don't like the machines with buttons/ranges. They're never where you want them.

Din connection for grounding (same rational as the torch).

Overall, it looks like a nice machine. I'll try and dig up some decent reviews.


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## ArmyDoc

erikmannie said:


> If the OP has any aluminum in his near future then he is advised to start with a TIG welder!


You can weld aluminum with MIG using the right wire and gas.  My son does it quite a bit.


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## graham-xrf

Aaron_W said:


> I have never even heard of that brand, but the specs are quite good. 498 pounds (don't know how to do the symbol) = $662 which puts it at a little less expensive than a Hobart 190 or Lincoln 180 which would be likely candidates for a decent under $1000 240v MIG welder over here.


Firstly .. Duh! I messed up on the "$" symbol, but OK, you did get that I meant $662. Sorry about that. I have now edited it now to read correctly.
For me, the $ sign is Shift+4.   The £ sign is Shift+3
 - - - - - - - - -

I believe both Hobart and Lincoln are available in UK, and I may look them up.
The R-Tech is the one @Lo-Fi has, and recommends. Also, he has experience of regretting buying a multi-machine. There may be some wisdom in having a design devoted to doing one thing well!


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## graham-xrf

Lo-Fi said:


> I have no experience with this brand, but this looks promising on a budget:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sherman® MIG 200 Speedy Welder IGBT Inverter 200A GAS GASLESS Welding FCAW ARC  | eBay
> 
> 
> Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Sherman® MIG 200 Speedy Welder IGBT Inverter 200A GAS GASLESS Welding FCAW ARC at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products!
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To explain why:
> 
> "Euro Torch" connection. Basically industry standard connection for torches, meaning you can remove and indeed swap/upgrade easily. The cheap machines the to have proprietary torches just hanging out the front.
> 
> Metal feed roller assembly. Rigidity matters here, it goes a long way to making smooth running, long lived assembly.
> 
> Continuously adjustable feed and voltage. I don't like the machines with buttons/ranges. They're never where you want them.
> 
> Din connection for grounding (same rational as the torch).
> 
> Overall, it looks like a nice machine. I'll try and dig up some decent reviews.



When I use that eBay link, I see the other ones that people who viewed it also viewed, and we find stuff.
One is just the very same welder but for £299, or $397.84, because it includes additional stuff --> *Here*

More interesting is same brand, for *£329 ($438.54)*. The picture reveals it's Polish.
It seems to be switchable *MIG* or *TIG* or *MMA* up to *200A* with some sort of automatic current control.
It has "2T" and "4T" under "inching", but somebody will have to explain that to me.
Gas or "Gasless" choice.
It claims "The welder has built-in automatic *HOT START* and *ANTI STICK* functions". I don't know if that means RF ignition.
It claims a memory for *20* sets of settings.
It claims "The device allows you to connect a *spool gun* (SG) to a *mini wire feeder and a D100* coil made of steel or colored wire"

I don't know how you post the links with the as you do, so I resort to something more deliberate.
The translation is "*Synergic Automatic Polarity Welding Machine*"

--> *USA link for eBay Sherman @ $438.54 Free International Shipping*

--> *UK link for eBay Sherman @ £329 Free Shipping*



For the price, it looks yummy, and with the free shipping, is good for our USA pals as well, so long as they use their 220V connection.
I know you regretted buying a multi-function machine, but this one does everything except sweep up and tidy the shop after.

CAUTION Re: MAX POWER CONSUMPTION!
MIG 33A, MMA 33A and TIG 24A
I know it says "max", and actual current will much depend on what you set it to, and it could be less, but values like that would have me need to be sure the house circuit breaker could handle it! 

Now that I have seen this, I guess current consumption is something one has to check out on all of these that we discuss


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## Lo-Fi

I don't actually own that R-Tech, but suggested one for a mate who was looking to get into welding, as it's what I was going to buy before I got tempted by the Tecarc multi I have! In my naivety, I'd not realised that the Tecarc is DC only, the pedal support is pretty poor, and it's a right faff to swap between modes. Having used his R-Tech and realised my multis limitations, I realised I'd spent about £400 more than I needed to and should have put toward s proper TIG. Which I've now bought anyway... A pro welder who comes to the railway also turned up with one of those R-Tech units and loves it. Goes everywhere with him as his portable machine. If I did it all again, I'd go right to that R-Tech.

Do a bit of digging into that Sherman I've linked to, though, it _might_ just be the ticket as a lower budget alternative. Like I said, no experience, but it checks some boxes on paper 

Another thing worth mentioning: power supply. You can run on a 13A UK plug up to about 130 welding amps. Anything more and you need to swap to a 16A commando socket or you'll need shares in a company making fuses. My welder's all have commando plugs and I've got short adaptor leads with 3 pin plugs for when I want to plug into a regular supply when not in my shop. Realistically, I rarely go above 100 amps or so on my MIG, for which the domestic plug is fine. However... If you're ever going to run on an extension, the commando plugs take far larger gauge wire than a domestic 3 pin can. Helps hugely not dropping voltage down a long run. 

Hope this is helpful!


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## Lo-Fi

Lol, cross posted! That eBay machine is looking tempting, I'll give it that.

2T and 4T refer to how the pedal works. Either straight on/off or with amperage control with amperage ramp up and down. 

Hot start and anti stick are basically using the TIG high frequency tricks in stick mode to help prevent a dead short, no arc and red hot electrodes. Stuff classic arc welders do not do.


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## graham-xrf

Lo-Fi said:


> Lol, cross posted! That eBay machine is looking tempting, I'll give it that.


OK - Got that. The R-Tech MIG 180 only needs a 16Amp connection. More efficient??
Also, I am running 10mm2 SWA cable out to the shop outbuilding.


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## Lo-Fi

Yeah, I'm surprised they're asking for 33A!! My 180A machine only wants 16A at full chat. Maybe they're quoting figures for 110V operation? 

10mm sq is what I'm running to my shed too. You won't have any issues with that


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## f350ca

Maybe European amps are different than this side of the pond, but my 180 amp tig at max will trip a 50 amp breaker on 220 v. Its transformer technology but can't see that would matter.
The welder you linked to is DC tig, with scratch start, you need high frequency ac for aluminum.

Greg


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## Aaron_W

f350ca said:


> Maybe European amps are different than this side of the pond, but my 180 amp tig at max will trip a 50 amp breaker on 220 v. Its transformer technology but can't see that would matter.
> The welder you linked to is DC tig, with scratch start, you need high frequency ac for aluminum.
> 
> Greg



Inverter machines seem to draw less power than transformer machines. Per the manual my Miller 220 only draws 22.4A running TIG @ 210A and 27.2A running MIG @200A.


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## Buffalo21

f350ca said:


> The welder you linked to is DC tig, with scratch start, you need high frequency ac for aluminum.
> 
> Greg



you can DC tig aluminum, NASA and the aerospace industry does it all the time. It’s a lot harder, more demanding, that why almost everyone else uses high-freq AC.


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## graham-xrf

Buffalo21 said:


> you can DC tig aluminum, NASA and the aerospace industry does it all the time. It’s a lot harder, more demanding, that why almost everyone else uses high-freq AC.


With modern inverter switcher electronics, they are switching at high frequency anyway. That is what allows the smaller, lighter ferrite inductors and components to replace the big heavy 60Hz transformer. With transformers, the surge current is high, but once going, they can be efficient.
Once you have switcher inverter technology in use, then configuring to make it AC, or pulse-width modulated DC, of either polarity is possible.

Assisted scratch start, with smart anti-stick-on and overload detect tricks may be the feature for some. I think RF ignition may be something else. It is a value feature that would normally be mentioned separately, instead of just being there.

Weld procedures used by NASA are subject to insane-level procedure and scrutiny and testing, where they know if it is done a certain way, with certain kit and procedures, the result is extreme reliability predictable. They often cannot take advantage of more modern kit without having it be explored, tested for every extreme scenario they can dream up, and certified for use. The same goes for most other kit. By the time it is qualified to fly, "new" versions are out there.


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## graham-xrf

f350ca said:


> Maybe European amps are different than this side of the pond, but my 180 amp tig at max will trip a 50 amp breaker on 220 v. Its transformer technology but can't see that would matter.
> The welder you linked to is DC tig, with scratch start, you need high frequency ac for aluminum.
> Greg


 I assure you the amps are the same both sides of the pond!

A transformer switch-on surge certainly can trip a breaker, especially if it is of a type that was intended to supply resistive loads, such as heaters, stoves, lights, kettles, etc. Also, many transformer types have an adjustable core power control, where part of the magnetic laminations core is moved in and out to adjust the mutual inductance coupling, as a means of power control.

Just before switch-on, the transformer core has no magnetic field in it. The core is empty of flux. It's a transformer. There are coils of copper in a primary winding which have a magnetic inductance, which limits the current if it is changing all the time, as in 50/60Hz AC. Once running, the energy from the ever changing field does not need so much primary inductance, and to save the copper and iron costs, and weight, many transformers simply don't include it.

At switch-on, into a core with no field, the only thing limiting the current inrush is the (low) DC resistance of the primary coils. What inductance is there slows down the rate of rise of the current, but without enough copper and iron, that surge can be 10x or 15x more than the average running current, but only briefly. Once the magnetic fields are established in the core, building then receding, then reversing and repeat, as with AC voltage, the current drops to very low, taking only a tiny "magnetizing current" to keep the field going in the core. Only when you then take energy out of the (lower voltage) secondary winding, and start welding, does the current rise as needed.

The trip switch may see the first milliseconds of that surge, yet not trip out. Magneto-thermal trip switches intended for inductive loads (transformers, motors, etc.) in UK, use Type-"C", taken from A, B, C, D. The trip will allow a surge, without popping out, for a certain delay, in milliseconds, to give enough time for the mains cycle to get past the surge. A short-circuit will trip the magnetic part after that. An overload current. though not short-circuit will trip it out from the thermal part after a good many more seconds. Trip switches can become touchy, and simply let go at a lower current than printed on their rating, especially if they have had cause to be re-set often.

This may not be the case with your welder. Once the AC is switched on, the field should be OK, unless the transformer is inefficient.


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## addertooth

Graham-XRF,
It always pleases me to see people paraphrasing Lenz laws in a functional way, and I agree with your summary.
It would be remiss of me not to mention inrush current on Switching Regulator (IGBT) power sources as well. 
Switching supplies have the raw AC, which is rectified to pulse DC, and then uses that to charge a large bank of capacitors
to smooth those pulses to a more consistent DC current. A well designed switching supply will have Inrush Current limiters
which keep that huge gulp of initial power from tripping breakers (or popping fuses on older homes).   However, even
with inrush limitation on switching supplies, the start up current always exceeds the operating current of those supplies.

Summary: Both transformer based, and switching based supplies can draw gobs of current when first switched on.
Loads are often described as Resistive or Reactive, with reactive being either inductive or capacitive.  With reactive loads
you can do things to tweak the "power factor" on them to make them "look" more like a resistive load, but that is 
a much longer topic.

Where switching supplies shine is their higher efficiency in conversion, as the typical figure for transformer efficiency
is only around 80 percent (for 50/60 Hz transformers), and high efficiency switching supplies can hit up to 98 percent (and custom built can exceed
99 percent efficiency of power out versus power in).   As with all electronic devices, any electricity which is not used to
perform "work", is given off as (potentially) destructive heat.


----------



## f350ca

Your responses prompted me to do some research, didn't realize inverters were more efficient than transformers. Just the same I'll stick, pun intended with my old school transformer welders. My Miller tig is good to about 140 amps output, after that it trips the breaker. Guessing it uses a higher arc voltage than my 250 amp mig which never has tripped the breaker, mind you it never needs close to full output with .035 wire. Again my ancient Miller stick has never tripped the breaker, can't remember how high I've set it though, think its a 250 amp machine as well.
Yes you can weld aluminum with DC, tried it one day, repaired the skeg on a friends outboard. Couldn't get a nice arc, didn't sound right, weld wouldn't flow but got it done. Took a little more flap disk sanding than normal to make it look pretty but he was happy. Went to turn off the machine and realized it was set to dc out after welding steel. Hard slap to the fore head fixed that. lol

Greg


----------



## graham-xrf

addertooth said:


> Where switching supplies shine is their higher efficiency in conversion, as the typical figure for transformer efficiency
> is only around 80 percent (for 50/60 Hz transformers), and high efficiency switching supplies can hit up to 98 percent (and custom built can exceed
> 99 percent efficiency of power out versus power in).   As with all electronic devices, any electricity which is not used to
> perform "work", is given off as (potentially) destructive heat.


Phew! Thank you - I am glad I got that right!
Re: Energy storage in IGBT inverter power supply systems..
Yes - there is stored energy in capacitors, but with modern switched mode power supplies, it no longer has to be enough to hold up the voltage to a relatively low "ripple". The energy is stored cycling between an inductor, and a capacitor operating at many kHz. Upstream, where the DC bus has the rectified mains with some capacitor storage, the 60Hz ripple may be large, but the control loop of the switching regulator is easily fast enough too ride up and down the residual AC to still provide a regulated pure DC, or other waveform as needed.

The better ones have what amounts to a "pre-switcher" stage to do power factor correction, so that the shop supply sees what looks like a resistive load, with the current taken being in phase with the voltage. Even more upstream, expect some relatively heavy inductors and capacitors to capture the harmonic energy from switching transients - the EMC filter.

The biggest switch-modes I ever had to deal with were 2 x 70kW servos pumping aviation fuel, which could be "back-driven" by 60HP propeller turbines (RATS). The electricity coming back could no longer be dissipated in resistors, for which I had used re-purposed house heating radiators wired in series-parallel during testing. The unused returning electricity would only drive the bus voltage up to destruction. The only choice was to use two drives in an arrangement to return the energy to the grid, in effect have it end up helping supply all else at that site. Now, with PV panels on roofs, many folk have exactly such electronics in their homes.

A small point about surge. Transformer inrush we understand. What happens with inverter welders is different. Even when it is on and running, there is a transient grab at input current when you strike the arc. The voltage drops, and the regulator slams it's PWM to near 100% for some milliseconds until the feedback lets it get a grip. The bandwidth of the control loop - the speed of response to the load transient, is what decides the temporary gulps of current that might take out a trip switch. The more real weighty hardware in inductors and capacitors for hold-up energy storage there is, the less the hit on the supply current. That would add to the weight and expense of the more "quality" kit.

I know it's odd, but I know much more about IGBT switching power supplies than about actual welding and available welders, for which read "relatively zilch"!


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## addertooth

I am surprised they use insulated gate bipolar transistors for the low voltages of all form of welding.  The old classic Hex-FETs are more robust at the high current of welding than IGBTs.  I would bet there must be a rather high counter EMF spike associated with arc welding (specifically on the make-break initiation of it), which is why they have to use IGBTs as versus HexFETs.  

Certainly energy can be stored in inductors (capacitors do it in a more easily managed fashion), I have used inductors for the storage which is released when the field is collapsing... which can be fairly substantial.  However, the huge gulps of power needed to weld can be problematic during the zero-crossover point on 60hz applied power (if you want consistent power delivery), which happens twice each cycle. And yes, I must admit, most of the power supplies I engineered and built had insanely low ripple figures, as they powered instrumentation which worked with nanoVolt level signals.  Most of what I designed were boost or buck regulators.  They critical ones had carefully calculated inductor (and core) values to achieve insane efficiency levels (due to them being used in very remote locations).  

But yes, like you, I am very familiar with classical transformer-based linear power supplies, as well as switching supplies.   Both certainly have the reasonable purposes, advantages, and disadvantages.  I suspect both of us know far more about power-supply design, than welding.. but every craft can be learned.


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## graham-xrf

One thing about switch-on surge I did discover when I encountered (big) spot welders was in the solid state relays, and zero-crossing switching. This is about the SSRs that switch at the instant the gate demands, as opposed to those which wait for the AC voltage to be crossing zero. The latter are just fine for resistive loads like furnaces, and controllers can deliver burps of a counted number of cycles as needed.

*Blunting the switch-on surge tripswitch smack*
Getting to the instantaneous switchers, as used to be operated to deliver parts of a phase cycle, with all the problems of EMC, and distorting the supply voltage, like SCR devices that could switch on at the controlled instant, but would have to deliver the rest of the cycle, only able to switch off when the polarity reversed. Instantaneous FET or transistor devices can be switched on or off at will, though as you point out, the consequences can be very high voltage stored energy back emfs that can destroy semiconductors unless one captures it. So we get to switch-on surge trick.

If the instant one switches is not at zero voltage, (or current with a different timing), but chosen instead to be about 15% past the peak, then the voltage driving the surge is already on it's way down toward zero. It massively blunts  the surge. By then, the core field is established, inductance is there, so as the voltage crosses zero and reverses, the transformer is functioning. This trick can turn a x5 overcurrent surge into a little 20% bump.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
*Related to actual welding of aluminium:*
What I am getting is that it is possible with all types of welder, though with some you need special rods, etc.
I see there are even special rods for "welding" aluminium with MAPP gas that looks in style a bit like brazing.
I also get it that for aluminium, *TIG* is considered best, and within that style, AC is a standard option, but if DC is used, the polarity has to be positive workpiece, negative electrode.

The TIG welds look so beautiful, and yes, at some stage I may well want to weld aluminium, but I get the impression that it can be a mistake to plunge straight into TIG with a dedicated machine. The advice is surely to start with stick welding, and learn how. HM members may have opinion on this. You can see why I was tempted by the Polish machine, so I could dabble with any.


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## Aaron_W

graham-xrf said:


> One thing about switch-on surge I did discover when I encountered (big) spot welders was in the solid state relays, and zero-crossing switching. This is about the SSRs that switch at the instant the gate demands, as opposed to those which wait for the AC voltage to be crossing zero. The latter are just fine for resistive loads like furnaces, and controllers can deliver burps of a counted number of cycles as needed.
> 
> *Blunting the switch-on surge tripswitch smack*
> Getting to the instantaneous switchers, as used to be operated to deliver parts of a phase cycle, with all the problems of EMC, and distorting the supply voltage, like SCR devices that could switch on at the controlled instant, but would have to deliver the rest of the cycle, only able to switch off when the polarity reversed. Instantaneous FET or transistor devices can be switched on or off at will, though as you point out, the consequences can be very high voltage stored energy back emfs that can destroy semiconductors unless one captures it. So we get to switch-on surge trick.
> 
> If the instant one switches is not at zero voltage, (or current with a different timing), but chosen instead to be about 15% past the peak, then the voltage driving the surge is already on it's way down toward zero. It massively blunts  the surge. By then, the core field is established, inductance is there, so as the voltage crosses zero and reverses, the transformer is functioning. This trick can turn a x5 overcurrent surge into a little 20% bump.
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> *Related to actual welding of aluminium:*
> What I am getting is that it is possible with all types of welder, though with some you need special rods, etc.
> I see there are even special rods for "welding" aluminium with MAPP gas that looks in style a bit like brazing.
> I also get it that for aluminium, *TIG* is considered best, and within that style, AC is a standard option, but if DC is used, the polarity has to be positive workpiece, negative electrode.
> 
> The TIG welds look so beautiful, and yes, at some stage I may well want to weld aluminium, but I get the impression that it can be a mistake to plunge straight into TIG with a dedicated machine. The advice is surely to start with stick welding, and learn how. HM members may have opinion on this. You can see why I was tempted by the Polish machine, so I could dabble with any.



TIG is its own thing most closely related to oxy/fuel welding, but still quite different if that makes any sense. Being good with stick or MIG is of limited value when learning TIG.

I really wanted a MIG welder (need is debatable), but I got the Multi-process so I could dabble with TIG. I have not regretted that decision, but I sprung for a higher end AC/DC machine, if I was going for TIG I was going in with both feet. 

In reality I have so far used the machine as an overly expensive MIG welder because I am a passable MIG welder, but not a very good TIG welder. I hope with time though to get better and use the machine to its full capacity. I will never get better at TIG without practice and I can't practice without a machine (or at least that was my thought process when throwing the budget out the window). I have projects I needed a MIG for, once I'm past that then I can start to find uses for TIG. 
I bought the welder with a 15-20 year growth plan in mind, so not using it to capacity in the first year of ownership is not a failure in my view, in fact I'd be worried if I was already reaching its full capacity.


----------



## DavidR8

Aaron_W said:


> TIG is its own thing most closely related to oxy/fuel welding, but still quite different if that makes any sense. Being good with stick or MIG is of limited value when learning TIG.
> 
> I really wanted a MIG welder (need is debatable), but I got the Multi-process so I could dabble with TIG. I have not regretted that decision, but I sprung for a higher end AC/DC machine, if I was going for TIG I was going in with both feet.
> 
> In reality I have so far used the machine as an overly expensive MIG welder because I am a passable MIG welder, but not a very good TIG welder. I hope with time though to get better and use the machine to its full capacity. I will never get better at TIG without practice and I can't practice without a machine (or at least that was my thought process when throwing the budget out the window). I have projects I needed a MIG for, once I'm past that then I can start to find uses for TIG.
> I bought the welder with a 15-20 year growth plan in mind, so not using it to capacity in the first year of ownership is not a failure in my view, in fact I'd be worried if I was already reaching its full capacity.



I love having both MIG and TIG capability. 
MIG feels rushed somehow whereas TIG feels like meditation. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## graham-xrf

DavidR8 said:


> I love having both MIG and TIG capability.
> MIG feels rushed somehow whereas TIG feels like meditation.


Yep - I can imagine that once the motor driven wire is coming out, everything from then on had better go exactly right! Relentless, like an assembly line. With TIG, a pause here and there is OK.
Are you sure it is meditation, or is it maybe weld admiration?


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## Lo-Fi

What are you planning on welding? A word of warning that stick welding anything under ~3mm is pure frustration. You're trying to juggle getting the arc started, which requires enough amps for a given rod, then travel as well as feed to keep the arc length correct. Too many amps and you'll just blow holes. Too few and the arc won't start. Choose a thinner rod, you're feeding it in an inch per second. With MIG, it starts and stops on the button. No sticking the rod to the work with the arc not starting, no accidental arc strikes because there's no way of turning the torch off, no slag obscuring the puddle, no smoke or possibility of including slag in your weld (assuming you prepped correctly). Arc welding is brutal, crude and causes the most heat distortion of any electric process. It's great for graunching into rusty old plate an inch thick outside in a gale, but realistically it's of limited use in a hobby shop where the alternatives are so much better suited to the environment and typical gauge of work. It has its place, of course, but that place really is outside the scope of most hobby projects. 

I enjoy stick welding, but the same as gas welding, I treat it as an anachronism that's fun to play with, rather than something I'd choose when I want to get stuff done. 5mm plate or above is where it's actually useful, or if you don't care to clean up and prep. If I was making a sculpture out of bits of chopped up, rusty old skip, I'd choose stick every time. Quick frame out of crusty old pipe? Stick. Welding a car chassis or body? MIG. Frame made of box section? MIG. Sheet metal box? MIG. Weld a nut to a broken stud? MIG. Bits of a machine tool I'm making? TIG. Possibly TIG braze. MIG gets used 90% of my welding time. It's easy, quick and clean and you gain nothing by fighting with a stick welder that you don't learn with a MIG torch in your hand IMHO. Life is also too short for chipping slag


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## Aaron_W

graham-xrf said:


> Yep - I can imagine that once the motor driven wire is coming out, everything from then on had better go exactly right! Relentless, like an assembly line. With TIG, a pause here and there is OK.
> Are you sure it is meditation, or is it maybe weld admiration?



You have to remember you are the boss with MIG, we go at my pace or I'll let go of the trigger.  

I had that running away sensation at first (well still have it occasionally when I forget who is in charge), but once I got to the point where I understood that I could start and stop at my whim (no slag to remove) I just work in short sections 2-3 inches at most, and I get better welds that stay on the intended line of travel. When I get into that runaway mode it is usually because I tried to run a too long bead.


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## Alcap

Thanks to all those explaining how an inverter welder works , though most of it way way over my head . I have an older Hobart 170 mig , works well but I think the newer ones with variable voltage settings or more then the 4 that mine has might be better . Right now I have flux-core and saving the argon/co2 gas  for doing work on clean/thinner material ,  also needed a welder for a small job away from th 220v the Hobart needs so bought a HF  a/c wire feed welder https://www.harborfreight.com/flux-125-welder-63582.html?_br_psugg_q=welder It does a OK job , but should have spent the extra $ for the d/c onehttps://www.harborfreight.com/titanium-easy-flux-125-amp-welder-56355.html . I saw these little 220v inverter stick welders on Banggood , so cheap I just couldn't resist buying it to see if it was any good .  https://www.banggood.com/MiniGB-ZX7...GCh03oAcnEAQYBiABEgI3dPD_BwE&cur_warehouse=CN Only used it once on some unknown steel with old 7014 rods . Couldn't believe how  nice a bead I layed just the first pass , I haven't  stick welded in years so I'm now a believer in those inverter welders . With the OP posters question , with the low cost on some of these , you might want to buy a wire feed and mini stick  then spring for say a better tig when you feel ready .


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## addertooth

I am generally loathe to offer a budget selection.  Most of the "welder evaluation websites" suggestions are horribly tainted (either through sponsorship by a specific vendor/vendors, or in the worst cases, are pretend evaluation sites put up by a manufacturer.

If I read your parameters correctly, you are wanting to stay under 800 Pounds of cost.  This particular welder is mentioned on several sites and is spoken about with generally favorable terms. It supports MIG, TIG, Stick welding.  It goes without saying it can run flux-core wire too.  It supports an optional MIG spool gun for doing aluminum as well.  This model is one of the types I call "semi-smart" as it allows the user to tell it the "process" he wants to use, and the machine sets default voltages and wire feeds it "believes" are ideal, but has a "menu" option to adjust the voltage to a more preferred choice (plus or minus ten percent).  The machine will then adjust feed rate to what it thinks is correct.  According to the reviewers, the semi-smart machine's best guess are good starting points for novice welders.  It even has an "inductance" adjustment for fine tuning things, which is unusual in this price range.

It comes with the TIG torch (WP-17 type), MIG gun, and a Rod/electrode holder.  It also has an unusually high quality return clamp (sometimes called a ground/earth clamp). It includes a ball-type flow gauge in the package too.  It is kitted out fairly nicely, as so many budget kits make you purchase some of these items (especially the TIG torch) at an additional cost. The Spool gun, for MIG welding Aluminum, is available at a value price of about $145 US dollars.

The welder has a United States friendly feature which is of no use for you (it runs on 110 and 220).  For Yanks who are not always near a 220 socket, this feature can have merit (although it can't run its rated maximum 200 amp current on 110VAC).  I believe it can be purchased, and the optional spool gun for aluminum as a side purchase, for under your 800 pound price point.

I realize this link is a US seller (Amazon), however, it will give you the make/model and a general description for you to find one in your market.

Weldpro 200 MIG


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## graham-xrf

addertooth said:


> I am generally loathe to offer a budget selection.  Most of the "welder evaluation websites" suggestions are horribly tainted (either through sponsorship by a specific vendor/vendors, or in the worst cases, are pretend evaluation sites put up by a manufacturer.
> 
> If I read your parameters correctly, you are wanting to stay under 800 Pounds of cost.  This particular welder is mentioned on several sites and spoken about with generally favorable terms. It supports MIG, TIG, Stick welding.  It goes without saying it can run flux-core wire too.  It supports an optional MIG spool gun for doing aluminum as well.  It is one of the types I call "semi-smart" as it allows the user to tell it the "process" he wants to use, and sets default voltages and wire feeds it "believes" are ideal, but has a "menu" option to adjust the voltage to a more preferred choice.  The machine will then adjust feed rate to what it thinks is correct.  According to the reviewers, the semi-smart machine's best guess are good starting points for novice welders.
> 
> It comes with the TIG torch, MIG gun, and a Rod holder.  It also has an unusually high quality return clamp (sometimes called a ground clamp). It includes a ball-type flow gauge in the package too.  It is kitted out fairly nicely, as so many budget kits make you purchase some of these items at an additional cost.
> 
> The welder has a United States friendly feature which is of no use for you (it runs on 110 and 220).  For Yanks who are not always near a 220 socket, this feature can have merit.  I believe it can be purchased, and the optional spool gun for aluminum as a side purchase, for under your 800 pound price point.
> 
> I realize this link is a US seller (Amazon), however, it will give you the make/model and a general description for you to find one in your market.
> Weldpro 200 MIG


Thanks so much. You have hit exactly my thoughts. Quite early on, I ended up completely done with so-called "review" sites and videos. I would trust a description of experience and recommendation posted on this site by a regular member, and I believe I can trust pretty much all of them. If one of us  bought, and regretted, and posted what the shortcomings were, I would expect it would not be done frivolously.

The *£800+* welder was, for me, a perhaps a price too high for me, for what it does, as compared to several welders *below £600* that seem to offer the same capability. I was having to look deeper at extra "features", or try to perceive "sheer build quality", perhaps only known from reputation.

We can also tell that the "budget" welders *under £200* either offer with limits to functionality, constrained  build quality, limited duty cycle, or other downsides. I think this is true, even if it comes from China!

New electronic technology, especially put in lower cost kit from East European countries, and China/Korea/Taiwan, can genuinely produce welders that are competitive while being lighter and lower cost, but one cannot pitch a whole lot of decision value on this. The reason is that the suppliers are generally more intent on driving the price down than using the advantage to enhance build quality. For putting a value judgement on budget welders, I have only partial statistics and hard knowledge. I have now overloaded from trawling welder advertisements, reviews, and explanations.

It's OK to go for a *sub £200 budget welder*. It will do some welds for you. If you want the welder to please you for years, I thing "budget" should have a reasonable base at about £250 (think around $330 to $340), but look close. If a $330 deal includes a whole bunch of extras, try and work back to the fraction of that represents the welder that these extras are in there to help shift. You will very likely discover that it is a MIG welder that has no way to connect gas - so call it "gasless"

*Here is a "budget" welder I cannot recommend..*
-->   *GASLESS MIG 130 from eBay UK Link*
-->    *GASLESS MIG 130 from eBay USA Link*
The only button it pushes is the low cost. *$120* is a step so far that I think you only go here if you welds are all outside in the wind, and you don't want to use a gas bottle, and the welds you want to do are never going to need more than 130A and 1.5mm to 4mm (max). The duty cycle is 10% for a 120A weld, and 35% for a 60A weld. I am not sure how often a decent weld is 60A

I show the above for a very low cost example. At that price, one could invest in it as an additional welder purchased for a single welding job that happens to be out in the wind. At this price, there very likely will also be build quality compromises. It has a 1 year warranty.


Without it being a contest to find the cheapest offer, this one has to be right down there!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

*Look at Lincoln*
Deliberately here, I do not yet approach the $1000 welder.
This welder is hard to search out on Amazon, but the deal is *$687.27 *from eBay, with free international shipping.
It's MIG and also TIG, and also polarity reversible. 180A. If you need to use stick out in the wind, it can do it.
You do need the 220/240V supply socket.
If USA welder wannabees check with local Lincoln outlets, the deal could get better.

--> *Lincoln Bester 190C Multi-Process MIG UK eBay link. £515 free delivery*
--> *Lincoln Bester 190C Multi-Process MIG USA eBay link. £687.27 free international delivery*


Is this the "everything" welder from a famous trusted brand, with 2 Year guarantee?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
There are, of course, dozens of others. Feel free to check them out. The features explanations that have happened in this thread provide lots of solid information to help folk chose on welders as applied to the kinds of welds and conditions, and additional essentials that will also come with a cost. The sheer number let you know that there is lots of competition to provide for home welder aspirations.

For my choice, it is a toss-up between the excellent stuff from R-Tech recommended by @Lo-Fi at the beginning of this thread, and the "do everything" Sherman MIG200HD.

It need not be that particular brand, but you can check off it's list of attributes, and take a glance at the price. Then, pick through Amazon, and eBay, looking for welders that "fit" that value, only because these two give you a swift look at what you can get, with real prices. Then you can look online with more specific keywords and model numbers, to find other outlets. It's better than being overwhelmed by keywording Google to look at "images" tab.

For the Sherman 200 - see posting *#61*.
For the Sherman 200HD "do anything" welder - see posting *#64.*




This one, for £329 (think about $439) is the one that has me most tempted. Partly from it's apparently being a full feature MIG, and TIG all in one, the price leaves room to go for the Lincoln Electric Viking auto-dark helmet.

There are also a whole bunch of impressive welders from *MILLER*, and *HOBART* .


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## Lo-Fi

I can't find much about the Sherman, but that also means nothing _bad_. As I said, the feature set is great and I can see some nicely made components. A really nice thing with the Euro torch and Dinse connections is if you buy yourself some nice leads and torches, they'll transfer right onto a new machine if you move on in the future. 

Keep us posted with whatever you decide


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## graham-xrf

Lo-Fi said:


> I can't find much about the Sherman, but that also means nothing _bad_. As I said, the feature set is great and I can see some nicely made components. A really nice thing with the Euro torch and Dinse connections is if you buy yourself some nice leads and torches, they'll transfer right onto a new machine if you move on in the future.
> 
> Keep us posted with whatever you decide


The Sherman 200HD is now out of stock on eBay
Searching "Sherman welder" on Amazon.co.uk yields variable ratings mostly 4/5 or 5/5. One lower rating was because "it kept blowing fuses"
One, for a £493 set that does TIG and stick, drew a 1/5 star rating with comment "Not fit for use in the UK don't waste your money". I dunno - maybe the bottle was incompatible with gas suppliers or something. It would have helped if he had said why. His rating seemed very out of step with all the others, but it was a TIG, not MIG.
--> *Amazon Sherman TIG Pulsed MULTIPRO DC*

When you said you regretted buying "multi-use", could you share what turned you off about it?

I am very attracted to having a single machine that can do it all, but I recognize the value of a machine doing one thing well.
In theory, provided one can stop the wire feed motor, connects up TIG handles, I can't yet see a fundamental reason why a MIG can't do TIG.

The other marginal concern, not only with Sherman, but indeed any welder, is efficiency. I don't really want to run more than the consumer unit trips. A 32A breaker should do, and if via the considerable feed length 45m of 10mm2 + about 7m of 6mm2, very likely a specified maximum of 33.5A would end up lower than 32A anyway. Most input currents would be in the 10A to 16A range.

The other feature I don't know about is *pulsing*. Adjustable 5Hz to 200Hz. Is this something that only applies to TIG? Is it worth having?


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## Aaron_W

graham-xrf said:


> The Sherman 200HD is now out of stock on eBay
> Searching "Sherman welder" on Amazon.co.uk yields variable ratings mostly 4/5 or 5/5. One lower rating was because "it kept blowing fuses"
> One, for a £493 set that does TIG and stick, drew a 1/5 star rating with comment "Not fit for use in the UK don't waste your money". I dunno - maybe the bottle was incompatible with gas suppliers or something. It would have helped if he had said why. His rating seemed very out of step with all the others, but it was a TIG, not MIG.
> --> *Amazon Sherman TIG Pulsed MULTIPRO DC*
> 
> When you said you regretted buying "multi-use", could you share what turned you off about it?
> 
> I am very attracted to having a single machine that can do it all, but I recognize the value of a machine doing one thing well.
> In theory, provided one can stop the wire feed motor, connects up TIG handles, I can't yet see a fundamental reason why a MIG can't do TIG.
> 
> The other marginal concern, not only with Sherman, but indeed any welder, is efficiency. I don't really want to run more than the consumer unit trips. A 32A breaker should do, and if via the considerable feed length 45m of 10mm2 + about 7m of 6mm2, very likely a specified maximum of 33.5A would end up lower than 32A anyway. Most input currents would be in the 10A to 16A range.
> 
> The other feature I don't know about is *pulsing*. Adjustable 5Hz to 200Hz. Is this something that only applies to TIG? Is it worth having?



On the pulsing, yes this is a nice feature. It is more common on TIG welders but some MIG welders have it as well. The idea behind pulsing is it varies the power to the welder to control heat, mostly useful for welding thinner materials. You can kind of do the same thing with TIG with the foot pedal, but not as quickly or precisely.


Something to consider with the multi-process machines, is there are different ways that companies "fit" two machines into one, and some methods are more desirable than others. I think this is part of the reason why you see some strong opinions on them as good or bad, it depends on how the one they used was put together. 

Also keep in mind at any budget point you will be able to get a better single function machine than a multi-process. It isn't until your budget exceeds your single function machine needs that they really become a choice, rather than a compromise. 

For what I spent on a multi-process I could have bought a much better MIG welder (more power, higher duty cycle, pulsed MIG). Nice machine but overkill for my needs. I also could have spent half as much to get a comparable MIG welder or 2/3 as much for a comparable TIG welder.


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## Janderso

Aaron_W said:


> Inverter machines seem to draw less power than transformer machines. Per the manual my Miller 220 only draws 22.4A running TIG @ 210A and 27.2A running MIG @200A.


Aaron, how do you measure amperage while welding?


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## Janderso

Aaron_W said:


> For what I spent on a multi-process I could have bought a much better MIG welder (more power, higher duty cycle, pulsed MIG). Nice machine but overkill for my needs. I also could have spent half as much to get a comparable MIG welder or 2/3 as much for a comparable TIG welder.


I bought the Miller 220 AC/DC multi use (AC/DC TIG-MIG-Stick) It was a lot of money >$3000. After learning more about pulsing and AC balance I discovered this machine can be manually set as well.
I figured there has to be a difference between a $1,200 and a $3,000 machine.
I've been happy so far and for the price, I should be.


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## Papa Charlie

A lot of good information here. I have always like Miller and Lincoln but these days, everyone knows the technology. The quality of the components is what changes.

In my opinion:
If you plan to do some heavy welding, then spending thousands on Miller and Lincoln makes sense but keep in mind, not all models are the same. I have done a lot of work using a Lincoln MIG 110V unit. It worked fine for welding some pretty heavy material. I have also used large industrial machines. They are great if you plan to weld all day long and do heavy materials. But you can do heavier materials with small units, just takes a little more effort.

But looking forward, my plan is to buy a multipurpose unit (MIG, TIG, Stick). I am seriously looking at the Vulcan Omnipro 220 from HF. Ya, I know HF, but I have talked with several that have them and they are very pleased and I know the demand of these users and they expect industrial type performance from these units, quality wise. Yes the duty cycle is not high, I think 20% but for most of us, that is more than enough.

What I think is just as important it the torches you use. At least for TIG. The Vulcan does not come with the TIG torch but that is fine by me as I will spend a little more for a good quality torch.









						OMNIPRO 220 Industrial Multiprocess Welder with 120/240V Input
					

Amazing deals on this Omnipro 220 Multiprocess Welder at Harbor Freight. Quality tools & low prices.




					www.harborfreight.com


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## pontiac428

I think this is a great thread with lots of good, helpful discussion.

I'm not a newcomer to welding.  My dad, a welding industry technical careerist, started teaching me how to weld about the same time I was learning how to ride a bike.  When circuit boards started showing up in welders, and later digits and microcontrollers, there has been the possibility of board failure.  Batches of bad capacitors helped feed my distrust, as well as oxidation as components age.  The availability of replacement parts is everything.  For many years I have had what was once a $15k industrial plasma cutter.  When Thermal Dynamics discontinued support for the popular model, the industry dropped the equipment like a hot potato (which is the reason I have one).  One of these days, I'm going to go to use it, and it might be dead.  That's going to suck, but my plasma cutter isn't going to take my MIG and TIG welders out along with it!  Why would anyone want an all-in-one machine, and one with no factory support, no less?  Industrial electronics are much different than consumer electronics, which is in your welder?

If you do a little farm repair or like welding for the same reason you like frying ants with a magnifying glass on the driveway to break up quarantine boredom, then maybe an all-in-one will get you started without upsetting the spouse.  But if you're serious, stick with discrete machines (that means single-function, y'all) from the top 5 manufacturers.  Your future self will thank you for it.


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## Aaron_W

Janderso said:


> I bought the Miller 220 AC/DC multi use (AC/DC TIG-MIG-Stick) It was a lot of money >$3000. After learning more about pulsing and AC balance I discovered this machine can be manually set as well.
> I figured there has to be a difference between a $1,200 and a $3,000 machine.
> I've been happy so far and for the price, I should be.



That is what I was getting at, I think most hobbyists would be quite adequately served by a $1200 +/- MIG welder and / or a $2000 TIG welder, so that is the performance level where looking at multi-process machines makes sense, at a lesser level (capability not cost) you are cutting into performance if you expect the same level at the lower price point. 

Looking at Miller since it is what I'm most familiar with you have the 211 MIG welder @ $1355, and on the TIG side is the Diversion 180 @ $2289. To get to "better" there is quite a jump, for MIG you have the 252 @ $2895 or the 255 @ $3139, for TIG the next step up is the Synchrowave 210 @ $3044 or Dynasty 210 @ $3987. 

For $3099 you can get the 220 Multiprocess which more or less gives you the Miller 211 and Diversion 180 in one box (not quite, the 220's TIG specs are a little better than the D180). Since a jump up to a $3000 MIG or TIG machine is probably more machine than the average garage guy needs, I don't see this as a compromise to put them together. Having two machines in the footprint of one is a plus for a lot of people with a small garage or basement shop, not so much for a guy with a shop in a 40x60 outbuilding.  

The welding classes I took, mostly used Miller machines, so I got to use some of the higher end machines, 252 MIG welders and water cooled Dynasty 210 TIG welders. 
The 252 is definitely a beefier machine for MIG welding than a 211 or the 220. It has a duty cycle of 60% @ 200A vs 105A for the 211 or 220, it also goes up to 250A vs 200A, so it is rated to single pass 1/2" vs 3/8" for the smaller machines. 
Using the bigger machine I could tell it was more robust, the fan only came on a few times when I was making particularly long welds, where on mine (220) the fan comes on almost immediately after pulling the trigger. Other than that though there was no noticeable difference in the quality of welds made, and since I'm not likely to be doing much welding of 1/2" in my shop, I don't feel like I under bought.

On the TIG side the Synchrowave is a really nice machine, 60% duty cycle @ 210A vs 20% @ 210A on the 220 (and air cooled torch). With the water cooler we are also talking about a $6400 set up compared to a $3000 set up, so it better be noticeably better. 
That said I again don't feel under served with the 220 for a home shop, yes it is a lighter duty machine, and doesn't have all the fancy features of the more expensive machine but it still welds well, and can do everything I want it to do. For me to spend $6400 the machine better be putting food on my plate.  



Papa Charlie said:


> A lot of good information here. I have always like Miller and Lincoln but these days, everyone knows the technology. The quality of the components is what changes.
> 
> In my opinion:
> If you plan to do some heavy welding, then spending thousands on Miller and Lincoln makes sense but keep in mind, not all models are the same. I have done a lot of work using a Lincoln MIG 110V unit. It worked fine for welding some pretty heavy material. I have also used large industrial machines. They are great if you plan to weld all day long and do heavy materials. But you can do heavier materials with small units, just takes a little more effort.
> 
> But looking forward, my plan is to buy a multipurpose unit (MIG, TIG, Stick). I am seriously looking at the Vulcan Omnipro 220 from HF. Ya, I know HF, but I have talked with several that have them and they are very pleased and I know the demand of these users and they expect industrial type performance from these units, quality wise. Yes the duty cycle is not high, I think 20% but for most of us, that is more than enough.
> 
> What I think is just as important it the torches you use. At least for TIG. The Vulcan does not come with the TIG torch but that is fine by me as I will spend a little more for a good quality torch.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OMNIPRO 220 Industrial Multiprocess Welder with 120/240V Input
> 
> 
> Amazing deals on this Omnipro 220 Multiprocess Welder at Harbor Freight. Quality tools & low prices.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.harborfreight.com



There are a lot of positive comments about the cheaper machines from Everlast, AHP, HTP and yes even Harbor Freight. The reality is even on the welders still made (assembled?) in the USA most of the electronics in them are being imported. 
I think the strongest argument for going with the big names like Lincoln and Miller is local support. The local welding supply I got my machine from is also a certified Lincoln and Miller repair facility, so if I have issues they can work on it, and if it has to get shipped back to the mothership, it is done through them. Everlast has developed a pretty good reputation for customer service, but if there are issues you are still shipping the welder to them for any problems that can't be fixed over the phone. I haven't heard much about the customer service / repair for the others. As for HF I have dealt with them a little bit and their policy seems to be bring it in and we will give you another one as long as it is within their warranty policy, beyond that heave it in the dumpster and buy another one for anything that doesn't share parts with a Grizzly machine.

I would agree with you that a 20-30% duty cycle at a useful power level is adequate for most hobby guys. You do have to watch that though, because I have seen some that show a decent duty cycle but if you look closer it is not at a very realistic power level. This is mostly on the cheaper 120v welders though. 



pontiac428 said:


> I think this is a great thread with lots of good, helpful discussion.
> 
> I'm not a newcomer to welding.  My dad, a welding industry technical careerist, started teaching me how to weld about the same time I was learning how to ride a bike.  When circuit boards started showing up in welders, and later digits and microcontrollers, there has been the possibility of board failure.  Batches of bad capacitors helped feed my distrust, as well as oxidation as components age.  The availability of replacement parts is everything.  For many years I have had what was once a $15k industrial plasma cutter.  When Thermal Dynamics discontinued support for the popular model, the industry dropped the equipment like a hot potato (which is the reason I have one).  One of these days, I'm going to go to use it, and it might be dead.  That's going to suck, but my plasma cutter isn't going to take my MIG and TIG welders out along with it!  Why would anyone want an all-in-one machine, and one with no factory support, no less?  Industrial electronics are much different than consumer electronics, which is in your welder?
> 
> If you do a little farm repair or like welding for the same reason you like frying ants with a magnifying glass on the driveway to break up quarantine boredom, then maybe an all-in-one will get you started without upsetting the spouse.  But if you're serious, stick with discrete machines (that means single-function, y'all) from the top 5 manufacturers.  Your future self will thank you for it.




Invertor machines have become the standard and multi-process machines are becoming more common. In 2017 there were only a couple of multi-process machines and they were relatively cheap import machines, or DC TIG only. ESAB and Miller each brought out an AC/DC TIG capable multi-process machine in late 2018. AC/DC multi-process machines are still fairly rare, but there are now quite a few heavy duty multi-process DC TIG machines coming out from Lincoln and Miller so industry must be finding them useful as I don't expect many hobby guys are running 300-650A machines, capable of running 480v with price tags up to $10,000.

I'm not generally a fan of combo machines, but multi-process machines have a place. I also agree that for some separate machines is the way to go.


----------



## Lo-Fi

My chief regret with the multi machine was that I spent £800 on it instead of £400 for a MIG only machine of similar calibre for that process. In my naivety, I didn't know that TIG welding ali in any sensible fashion requires AC and that my multi is DC only. There's no proper pedal support either, it's simply on/off. I've since got a dedicated TIG unit anyway, so essentially I'm £400 out of pocket. My fault, not the machines!

If I did it again, would I go full feature multi or dedicated? Separate. The TIG is tied to the bench. It's literally useless anywhere else. The multi gets lugged about all over, welding cars, steam engines or whatever, but I only ever use it for MIG, so don't have to faff with extra bottles and more torches when I do pick it up. A dedicated MIG would be smaller and lighter, which would be nice. Your requirements are no doubt different from mine, Graham, but that's the benefit of my experience for what it's worth


----------



## Papa Charlie

That is one of the things I like about the specs on the Vulcan Multiprocess 220. It can be setup for foot pedal and it is a true TIG. I don't like core wire and only will weld with gas so transport isn't as much of an issue for me.


----------



## graham-xrf

For me, it is partly about space. The shop, now under construction, is 5.5m x 3.6m (that's about 18ft x 12ft). Bigger than half a garage, but definitely modest compared to some enviable spaces we see here. I thought that one machine would suit better.

*Getting deep down about TIG*
It's a subtle thing, but some of the "multi" capability is about adding a sales feature. Sometimes when the term is used, it means MMA (stick) + TIG. All TIGs can do stick anyway.

Then there is the type of TIG. As I read it, if you have a MIG machine, adapted to TIG, it means the feed is stopped, and a different handle put on using tungsten electrode. Also, it may then be raw AC, but on some, in the spec (Miller) they say "DC TIG". From what you folk have been saying about TIG needing to be at least some kind of AC, I have to ask - is "DC TIG" really a thing?

Then you get to the more sophisticated genuine TIG features. High frequency pulsed DC is a kind of biased AC, and if the workpiece is made positive, you get less heat in the handle.

There may well be yet more sophisticated weld control feature I don't yet understand, but what we do have is a middle range of MIG welders that can do a "sort of" TIG, and will therefore plug this hard. There are some, generally costing more than $450 (£338) that do use modern electronics to achieve polarity reversal, and a "better" TIG. I note the Sherman calls their type "lift TIG. That is their word for "scratch start", and for some of the cheaper ones, the electrode is always live.

Then, as we get to the $800-$900 range, (£600 - £676) and still looking at those that claim to be "multi MIG + TIG", you then get to where the TIG feature is more fully served. Of course, we know that a $1000+ dedicated MIG machine (say Lincoln) is going to a fine welder. Folk who can fully use a something like this.. (*$3983*)



Well - that is more than a hobby machinist investment,* and it is a dedicated TIG welder! No MIG!*

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
*Back to the Polish Sherman, here is what $747 gets you.*
--> *eBay MIG Welder TIG MMA DIGIMIG*




Now look close at the claimed features..
Automatic setting, Predefined programs,
Welding aluminum, 2T / 4T,
Burnback, Gasless welding,
Stick welding, *TIG Lift*,
Arc force, Hot start, Fan stop,
Settings memory, Anti Stick, VRD,
Voltage correction, Flux, Adjustable inductance,
Spool Gun compatible, Thermal Overload Protection

I have highlighted in red that it is a *scratch-start TIG*.
It is a 60% duty cycle at 200A, and 100% at 155A machine that uses a 21V-240V input, and the price gets you everything in the picture.

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

I have been dipping in here and there, getting a first idea from eBay, and Amazon, but I know that if you want a Miller Multiprocess of any kind, it's going to take you past $1800+, and gets to $3000 - $4000. You will want to check out the welding shop in your home town, or maybe use the brand website. There are some surprisingly good welders available at good ole' Harbor Freight.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
Despite the space issue, I am going to go for a nice dedicated MIG, and use the HobbyWeld deposit-only no rental gas cylinder, and then, if in the future  I want to play TIG, I will use a dedicated TIG with RF start, and current waveform  PWM (pulse width modulation) control.


----------



## pontiac428

Tempering expectations.

Thinking about welding, we all want to do this:






But we're planning to buy a 10% duty cycle welder that is made for this:





Any questions?


----------



## Lo-Fi

I'd suggest watching:






And 








graham-xrf said:


> From what you folk have been saying about TIG needing to be at least some kind of AC, I have to ask - is "DC TIG" really a thing?



AC needed only for aluminium welding. Pretty much everything else is done DC.


----------



## Aaron_W

Lo-Fi said:


> The TIG is tied to the bench. It's literally useless anywhere else. The multi gets lugged about all over, welding cars, steam engines or whatever, but I only ever use it for MIG, so don't have to faff with extra bottles and more torches when I do pick it up. A dedicated MIG would be smaller and lighter, which would be nice. Your requirements are no doubt different from mine, Graham, but that's the benefit of my experience for what it's worth



Well not completely worthless away from the bench, but this is a good point I've not seen brought up before. MIG is basically a go everywhere process, and TIG while maybe not quite bench bound is pretty static in comparison. I have to drag my welder out to my welding area regardless so this never crossed my mind, but yes if you have a nice indoor set up for TIG, that would be a major plus towards separate machines. 



graham-xrf said:


> For me, it is partly about space. The shop, now under construction, is 5.5m x 3.6m (that's about 18ft x 12ft). Bigger than half a garage, but definitely modest compared to some enviable spaces we see here. I thought that one machine would suit better.
> 
> *Getting deep down about TIG*
> It's a subtle thing, but some of the "multi" capability is about adding a sales feature. Sometimes when the term is used, it means MMA (stick) + TIG. All TIGs can do stick anyway.
> 
> Then there is the type of TIG. As I read it, if you have a MIG machine, adapted to TIG, it means the feed is stopped, and a different handle put on using tungsten electrode. Also, it may then be raw AC, but on some, in the spec (Miller) they say "DC TIG". From what you folk have been saying about TIG needing to be at least some kind of AC, I have to ask - is "DC TIG" really a thing?
> 
> Then you get to the more sophisticated genuine TIG features. High frequency pulsed DC is a kind of biased AC, and if the workpiece is made positive, you get less heat in the handle.
> 
> There may well be yet more sophisticated weld control feature I don't yet understand, but what we do have is a middle range of MIG welders that can do a "sort of" TIG, and will therefore plug this hard. There are some, generally costing more than $450 (£338) that do use modern electronics to achieve polarity reversal, and a "better" TIG. I note the Sherman calls their type "lift TIG. That is their word for "scratch start", and for some of the cheaper ones, the electrode is always live.
> 
> Then, as we get to the $800-$900 range, (£600 - £676) and still looking at those that claim to be "multi MIG + TIG", you then get to where the TIG feature is more fully served. Of course, we know that a $1000+ dedicated MIG machine (say Lincoln) is going to a fine welder. Folk who can fully use a something like this.. (*$3983*)
> 
> View attachment 346030
> 
> Well - that is more than a hobby machinist investment,* and it is a dedicated TIG welder! No MIG!*
> 
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> *Back to the Polish Sherman, here is what $747 gets you.*
> --> *eBay MIG Welder TIG MMA DIGIMIG*
> 
> View attachment 346032
> 
> 
> Now look close at the claimed features..
> Automatic setting, Predefined programs,
> Welding aluminum, 2T / 4T,
> Burnback, Gasless welding,
> Stick welding, *TIG Lift*,
> Arc force, Hot start, Fan stop,
> Settings memory, Anti Stick, VRD,
> Voltage correction, Flux, Adjustable inductance,
> Spool Gun compatible, Thermal Overload Protection
> 
> I have highlighted in red that it is a *scratch-start TIG*.
> It is a 60% duty cycle at 200A, and 100% at 155A machine that uses a 21V-240V input, and the price gets you everything in the picture.
> 
> - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> 
> I have been dipping in here and there, getting a first idea from eBay, and Amazon, but I know that if you want a Miller Multiprocess of any kind, it's going to take you past $1800+, and gets to $3000 - $4000. You will want to check out the welding shop in your home town, or maybe use the brand website. There are some surprisingly good welders available at good ole' Harbor Freight.
> 
> - - - - - - - - - - - -
> Despite the space issue, I am going to go for a nice dedicated MIG, and use the HobbyWeld deposit-only no rental gas cylinder, and then, if in the future  I want to play TIG, I will use a dedicated TIG with RF start, and current waveform  PWM (pulse width modulation) control.




DC TIG is absolutely a thing, AC TIG is only needed for welding aluminum (the back and forth current breaks up the aluminum oxide "crust" which requires a lot more heat than plain aluminum) and a few exotic metals like magnesium. There are ways to get around that as has been mentioned.
Spool gun for MIG is one way to weld aluminum, but that is like saying MIG welding is a way to get around TIG. Sure it is, but TIG is better for some projects and MIG is better for others. TIG welding a 30 foot seem in a boat hull would probably not be the preferred method, and MIG welding isn't the best choice where you need a very precise and controlled weld.  

DC TIG can be used on pretty much any steel including stainless, as well as some more exotic metals like titanium. It can also be used to TIG braze.

DC TIG is not just a cheap multi-process machine thing. There are DC only dedicated TIG welders even from the big companies. AC TIG is a step up in cost even in stand alone machines. Miller (again because this is what I'm most familiar with) has a cheaper line (not inexpensive, just cheaper some are quite expensive and obviously aimed at industry). The least expensive and more of a home user grade is the Maxstar 161, a 160A TIG (DC only machine) for $1355. The cheapest Miller AC/DC TIG is the Diversion 180, a 180 amp AC/DC TIG welder which is $2289, so about $900 to add AC TIG and 20A.

If you were a business that TIG welds stainless steel plumbing fixtures why would you pay for AC on a machine that will never see a piece of aluminum?     

You really want HF start with TIG, scratch and lift start is more likely to contaminate the tungsten. HF is not just a marketing thing.

Stick, MIG and TIG have a lot of overlap and they definitely have areas where they stand alone.


With your budget and needs, I think you will be happier with a dedicated MIG or TIG welder (and it sounds like MIG is really what you need). Getting additional processes is nice, but not at the cost of capability. As Lo-Fi pointed out the main issue he had with a multi-process welder was the price point where he bought in. Nothing is free instead of getting a decent $800 MIG or TIG unit you are likely to end up with two unsatisfying $400 welders. Until you get past the break point between very good home welder ($1000-2000) and the jump into industrial welder prices ($3000+), you are just sacrificing the quality of the welders you are getting with a multi-process welder. It is making that leap to industrial machine prices for what are essentially two good quality light duty machines that allows you to get there without giving up function, and you are basically paying for two machines to get there. Some of the "lesser" brands get there at a lower price, maybe $1500 instead of $3000 but the basic concept is still in effect.

You have many more good options available when shopping for a dedicated machine vs a multi-process machine.


----------



## 7milesup

pontiac428 said:


> Tempering expectations.
> 
> Thinking about welding, we all want to do this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But we're planning to buy a 10% duty cycle welder that is made for this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any questions?



DUDE!  That is hilarious.


----------



## General Zod

Just buy a few of each and you will be very happy.


----------



## graham-xrf

pontiac428 said:


> Tempering expectations.
> 
> Thinking about welding, we all want to do this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But we're planning to buy a 10% duty cycle welder that is made for this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any questions?


Wow! It makes one want to try for TIG from the get-go. The welds are awesome beautiful, even without the colours!

Being the way I am, I am thinking the first picture has some indications it was either a robotic weld, or at least had the benefit of machine mounted rotation while it was being done. The colours, of course, are from chroma wavelength interference in the thickness of the transparent surface oxide that forms as soon as the weld clears the argon-protected region. Like in soap bubbles, the thinnest first cancel blue/violet, so leave yellow.
The stainless flue on my wood-burner forms these, which steadily march upward, going through the colours until violet, when it starts over again on the next multiple of quarter-wave thicknesses, making colour spectrum rings up the flue.

In the second weld, it goes all the way around the vertical pipe. All I can think is the pipe was maybe first tied on with wire, or a couple of U-bolts, and blob-weld ace dude welded over the whole lot!

[Edit: TIG was an assumption. Can any other weld type look like that?]


----------



## graham-xrf

General Zod said:


> Just buy a few of each and you will be very happy.


Lots of devoted brand-loyalty in evidence, but also, given three of them appear to be identical, this stash of welders are likely the tools of a whole site crew.


----------



## Lo-Fi

Though those welds in the post above are done with the "walking the cup" method without a rotary positioner.


----------



## pontiac428

graham-xrf said:


> Lots of devoted brand-loyalty in evidence, but also, given three of them appear to be identical, this stash of welders are likely the tools of a whole site crew.



Nah, @General Zod just doesn't like changing wire spools in his MIG welders, so he bought one for each type of wire.


----------



## Lo-Fi

pontiac428 said:


> Nah, @General Zod just doesn't like changing wire spools in his MIG welders, so he bought one for each type of wire.



I sympathize with that approach!


----------



## graham-xrf

Lo-Fi said:


> I sympathize with that approach!


OK - for us beginners, I take it that means changing the wire spools is a right Royal pain!
Sufficient to motivate buying a whole other welder!
Thus perhaps suggest the generally most useful size. I get it that if you want to weld car body sheet metal together in a butt joint stitched weld, you will likely need the thinnest.
What suits 2mm wall angle or box? 
What about 3mm thick 40mmx 40mm angle?
What goes with 6mm (or 1/4 inch) 2"x 2"

Suppose you have a "thick" weld to make, say approx 10mm (0.4"), and you have it beveled, and a root butt, and you want to do a multi-pass
What spool size?

Also, while we are at it, how to stop it curling up together as if to close the joint.
Is this kind better done as a stick weld?


----------



## graham-xrf

Other than lugging the gas bottle around, does TIG have such advantages that one would consider using it for everything, and not have MIG at all?

I think I did read that MIG is more forgiving, while with TIG, everything has to be hyper-clean, wiped with alcohol, etc.


----------



## pontiac428

It's really a matter of materials.  For handy work, I wouldn't be without a MIG.  That's the welder to own if you only want one.  TIG can do more than people realize.  You can apply almost any flux coated special application rod with TIG with beautiful results.  You can weld non-ferrous with TIG.  If you want versatility, then TIG is the machine you want.  A couple of non-trivial things with TIG are it costs more in gas and time to run, and it's slower to clean and set up. That's where having more than one capability comes in.  Plus, if you're really cool, you can get a big cryogenic Argon tank installed in your side yard for a bottomless hard-plumbed gas supply.  All the commercial guys are doing it.


----------



## Papa Charlie

graham-xrf said:


> OK - for us beginners, I take it that means changing the wire spools is a right Royal pain!
> Sufficient to motivate buying a whole other welder!
> Thus perhaps suggest the generally most useful size. I get it that if you want to weld car body sheet metal together in a butt joint stitched weld, you will likely need the thinnest.
> What suits 2mm wall angle or box?
> What about 3mm thick 40mmx 40mm angle?
> What goes with 6mm (or 1/4 inch) 2"x 2"
> 
> Suppose you have a "thick" weld to make, say approx 10mm (0.4"), and you have it beveled, and a root butt, and you want to do a multi-pass
> What spool size?
> 
> Also, while we are at it, how to stop it curling up together as if to close the joint.
> Is this kind better done as a stick weld?



Changing wire is not difficult at all. Cut the wire, pull the spool, pull the wire out of the gun lead, insert new wire sppol. loosen the drive tension, push the wire through, push button for cold feed, adjust tension and close the door.

I have only had an issue when the gun feed sleeves start to wear out and need to be replaced.


----------



## Lo-Fi

graham-xrf said:


> OK - for us beginners, I take it that means changing the wire spools is a right Royal pain!
> Sufficient to motivate buying a whole other welder!
> Thus perhaps suggest the generally most useful size. I get it that if you want to weld car body sheet metal together in a butt joint stitched weld, you will likely need the thinnest.
> What suits 2mm wall angle or box?
> What about 3mm thick 40mmx 40mm angle?
> What goes with 6mm (or 1/4 inch) 2"x 2"
> 
> Suppose you have a "thick" weld to make, say approx 10mm (0.4"), and you have it beveled, and a root butt, and you want to do a multi-pass
> What spool size?
> 
> Also, while we are at it, how to stop it curling up together as if to close the joint.
> Is this kind better done as a stick weld?



I do all that with MIG, 0.8mm wire. I often can't be bothered to change to the 0.6mm wire for thinner car body gauge stuff and stick with the 0.8mm to be honest. You just need a lower feed rate. Welding at lower amperages is nicer with the thinner wire - it's just a little more smooth - but I'm a hot, heavy, speedy type of welder, so the thicker wire isn't a problem. It's not that much of a faff to change spools - maybe ten mins (once you've unpacked the other spool, wound the wire back, changed the nib, swapped the spools, fed the wire again, set the rollers for the correct wire gauage). I'm lazy!
Anything over 5mm is best done with multi passes on a hobby machine. Indeed, even my welding qualification works that way. 12mm plate, root pass, stringer filler passes, weave cap. You can do those with TIG, but you're going to use a lot of gas and take a month of sundays. Depends what you're doing for which technique you choose.


----------



## Aaron_W

Most if not all the welders you would be considering can run .024", .030" and .035" solid wire (metric 0.6, 0.8 and 1mm?). MIG is fairly forgiving of wire size, so if you were doing a bunch of sheet metal and had .024" wire loaded in the machine, but had a couple 1/4" welds to do, not a big deal, as long as you were ready for it to run a high wire speed. Not as efficient and you will run through more wire, but it would work. Now if you were moving to a project that was all 1/4" metal it would be worth changing spools.
Inconvenient is a better word for spool changes, it isn't hard. I do mostly 1/4" and smaller so just run .030" all the time. It is a nice middle ground that will work on sheet and 1/4" +. If I was going to do something with a lot of 1/4 to 3/8 then I would probably go buy a spool of .035". I have a small spool of .024" for thin sheet but I've never used it.


----------



## pontiac428

I was just teasing Zod for having 3 (or more?) MIG welders.  I have 4 different MIG guns set up with the right tips, nozzles, and liners to cover wire from .045 down to .018.  I use the .045 to spray-transfer flux core using 2% O2 gas mix for heavy structural work.  I doubt you can do spray transfer deposition with a lunchbox welder, those are short-circuit transfer mode machines.


----------



## Janderso

TIG is the most difficult to learn and yes, everything has to be clean. I have to be in a comfortable, stable position to see the tip of the tungsten. I haven't tried the lift arc or the other TIG start setting on my 220 acdc. Just the peddle. You have to be in a position to operate the peddle.
If you are on a farm or out on a construction site in the wind repairing equipment, let's not forget about arc welding.
I guess flux core MIG would be comparable??


----------



## Aaron_W

Janderso said:


> TIG is the most difficult to learn and yes, everything has to be clean. I have to be in a comfortable, stable position to see the tip of the tungsten. I haven't tried the lift arc or the other TIG start setting on my 220 acdc. Just the peddle. You have to be in a position to operate the peddle.
> If you are on a farm or out on a construction site in the wind repairing equipment, let's not forget about arc welding.
> I guess flux core MIG would be comparable??



My instructor in the TIG class that got cancelled halfway through, described TIG welding as like patting your head and rubbing your tummy while trying to tap your toe to the beat.    I found that a pretty accurate description, there is a lot going on. I need a lot more practice to get past barely marginal at it, I can't dance either.


----------



## General Zod

graham-xrf said:


> Lots of devoted brand-loyalty in evidence, but also, given three of them appear to be identical, this stash of welders are likely the tools of a whole site crew.



Nope all of them are in my garage with the exception of 1 that I gave to my Dad.


----------



## graham-xrf

pontiac428 said:


> I was just teasing Zod for having 3 (or more?) MIG welders.  I have 4 different MIG guns set up with the right tips, nozzles, and liners to cover wire from .045 down to .018.  I use the .045 to spray-transfer flux core using 2% O2 gas mix for heavy structural work.  I doubt you can do spray transfer deposition with a lunchbox welder, those are short-circuit transfer mode machines.


Do tell about *spray transfer deposition*?
OK - I guess I can search on YouTube to learn about it, but I want to discover if the technique is exclusively the preserve of large firm industrial processes.

"Lunchbox welder" as for perhaps stitching some car body at 85A, or welding up a bench frame at 120A, I can understand, might be out of their league.
What minimum capability in a welder is viable?


----------



## graham-xrf

General Zod said:


> Nope all of them are in my garage with the exception of 1 that I gave to my Dad.


OK - so given I have some imaginative difficulty in visualizing the volume application needs, that must mean you love the art, and have built a collection of welding kit of nuanced capabilities, from the most minimal through to the most exceptional. That, short of welding ship sides or railway lines!

 I trust that each one has some feature that is a bit different from it's predecessor. I guess a new style model or technology is something you can't manage to walk away from.

I know I can be prone to "shop envy", and "machine envy", but now I encounter "welder collection awe"!


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## General Zod

Spray Transfer is awesome (for flat/horizontal).  Very high energy mode of transfer.  Using an Argon rich mix (typically 82% Argon minimum, balance CO2, optimum usually 90%+ Argon, balance CO2, but one can also use Argon-Oxygen with O2 being in the 2-5% range), one can have both the voltage and amperage cross a threshold where by the wire no longer contacts the part and instead tiny droplets (whose diameter is less than the diameter of the wire) get pinched/propelled off the end of the wire across a continuously lit electric arc.  The high E-M forces cause the droplet to be driven axially, so the direction of deposition is controlled.















The bad part is that the puddle is so hot and fluid that it is limited to flat/horizontal.  But that is where pulsed-spray mode of transfer comes into play.


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## 7milesup

Aaron_W said:


> My instructor in the TIG class that got cancelled halfway through, described TIG welding as like patting your head and rubbing your tummy while trying to tap your toe to the beat.    I found that a pretty accurate description, there is a lot going on. I need a lot more practice to get past barely marginal at it, I can't dance either.



Very true.  I can't dance.  Can't rub my head and pat my tummy, or is that the other way around.   See, I am an uncoordinated mess.  But, I actually can TIG weld.  Not like the dudes that walk the cup and make us in awe of their skills, but mine isn't bad.
One of the little tidbits that I picked up watching a welding video somewhere was to move your TIG torch 1/3 of the puddle and then add your filler rod.  Rinse.  Repeat.  I was trying to figure out how to "stack dimes" and it was a cursory comment in a video that had a nearly sea-change result in my welding.
Here are a couple of pics of my TIG welding.  Not pro quality stuff but OK since my TIG instructor was crap and taught me nothing.  You Tube has been more help over the last year or so.  First is aluminum, second is steel.


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## pontiac428

It takes about 220 amps with an .045 flux core wire and tri-mix gas.  Actually with the tri-mix you can go down to 200 amps before you need to switch to a finer wire if your welder can feed fast enough.  I use Praxair Stargold STR-2 for gas and nothin' fancy FC-E71 for wire.  You could use stainless or silicon bronze if you wanted to.  The nice thing is this setup with small wire will let you weld out of position in spray mode.

When you are doing wire welding on big stuff, you need to be able to get filler down fast.  The method creates little spatter, mostly during start and transitions.  During spray, the filler never touches the base.  The tri-mix gives a better arc penetration profile for a (relatively) smaller  puddle and a deeper weld.  The best part is spray transfer welds look very nice.


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## General Zod

graham-xrf said:


> Do tell about *spray transfer deposition*?
> OK - I guess I can search on YouTube to learn about it, but I want to discover if the technique is exclusively the preserve of large firm industrial processes.
> 
> "Lunchbox welder" as for perhaps stitching some car body at 85A, or welding up a bench frame at 120A, I can understand, might be out of their league.
> What minimum capability in a welder is viable?



I would say it depends on the welding process. 

For a 90° T-joint..

Stick welder using E6011 rods = you can weld up to ¼ " in a single-pass with only ~100-120A.
MIG welder trying to weld ¼ " in a single pass = you need ~180-200A !
TIG welder trying to weld ¼" in a single-pass = you need about ~ 220-250A!

As you can see, you get the most "bang for the amp" with stick welding, albeit E6011 is not suitable for every single application I might add.  E7018 is more versatile, but even then you'd only need about 150-160A with a 5/32" electrode to weld ¼" in a single-pass.  Still a pretty good value for the electrons needed.

My cheapest [stick] welder cost me $65 shipped on Amazon.  While starting the rod is horrendous, once it does get going, it actually does work.  Puts out ~ 112A and can weld ¼ " with a 6011.


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## graham-xrf

Some things that need decoding/explaining..

SYNERGIC? I think in relation to MIG
TIG LIFT ?    I know it's something other than simple "scratch-start"!
UP-SLOPE and DOWN SLOPE ?  For a beginner - no, it's not about the way the surface was tilted. Something to do with waveforms?
ARC FORCE ? Is that "control of"?
HOT START ? Why is that a thing. How that changes the machine value ?  You start sometimes from cold. They all have to start somehow.
and..
What is the deal with SPOOL GUNS, and welders that feature "ability to attach spool guns"?

INDUCTANCE ? The adjustment thereof, and how, and why?  Automatic electronic control thereof?
                           I know what inductance is, as being the magnetic storage property of coils and magnets that sets the rate of change of current.


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## General Zod

graham-xrf said:


> Some things that need decoding/explaining..
> 
> SYNERGIC? I think in relation to MIG
> TIG LIFT ?    I know it's something other than simple "scratch-start"!
> UP-SLOPE and DOWN SLOPE ?  For a beginner - no, it's not about the way the surface was tilted. Something to do with waveforms?
> ARC FORCE ? Is that "control of"?
> HOT START ? Why is that a thing. How that changes the machine value ?  You start sometimes from cold. They all have to start somehow.
> and..
> What is the deal with SPOOL GUNS, and welders that feature "ability to attach spool guns"?
> 
> INDUCTANCE ? The adjustment thereof, and how, and why?  Automatic electronic control thereof?
> I know what inductance is, as being the magnetic storage property of coils and magnets that sets the rate of change of current.



Synergic

The (MIG) machine is programmed with a set of data points.   The user decides the WFS, only (or sometimes by a material thickness, which really sets the WFS anyways, just via a different "visual").  The machine matches up the chosen WFS to a pre-programmed voltage that has been decided by the manufacturer, using what ever protocols they decide to use.  Most machines will allow fine-tuning of the voltage from there using either an "± offset" (whose units are volts), or a multiplier (that is unitless, and serves to reduced/increase in a similar fashion as an offset).  Machines can vary greatly in this respect.  The Millermatic 215 sets  ¼" parameters to about 450 ipm / 25V.  My MIGs set the same material thickness parameters at a much hotter 629 ipm/29V !
TIG Lift arc

The tungsten is touched to the work, the machine senses this, and then electrically turns the tungsten "hot" as it is lifted off the work piece.  Very similar to scratch start, but it is much more controlled since it relies on ramp-up rates programmed into the machine.
Up/Down Slope

Controls the rate of current rise when an arc is intiated/terminated.    For added control, versus abrupt on/off scenarios.
Arc-Force

Applies to SMAW stick welding.  The addition of arc force increases the current for the operator (with no intervention) when the tip of the electrode is brought in very, very close to the work.  When that happens, the arc voltage drops a tad, the machine senses this, and increase the amperage to prevent sticking the rod into the weld puddle.  Again, all for added control and manipulation of the welding arc.
Hot-Start

Primarily a spec for SMAW (but some TIGs and MIGs also have this in another capacity).  The tip of the stick electrode does not want to easily emit/receive electrons when it's cold (look up: thermionic emission).  That's why sometimes it tends to "stick".  Hot start can be used to help the rod light up and function as an intended electrode by increasing the amperage output for either a pre-determined or user-programmable set-time and amperage increase.
Spoolguns

Used to feed soft wires, primarily aluminum, from a small spool installed directly in the gun.
Inductance

Used in MIG for added control of the welding arc.   Some machines dial it in/out differently, but inductance affects the current-rise on the short-circuit event.   On one end, the arc & overall "feel" is very "smooth"; the puddle is more fluid, wets out easier, and there is less spatter.  On the other end the arc is "cripser", there is more slightly more fine spatter, but there is added control due to the puddle 'staying in place' a bit more.  The former resembles more of a situation where the short-circuit events rather "blend in together" more, and the latter has more distinct, separated, short-circuit events.  The difference is also audible; the former is a smooth "buzz", and the latter is a harder, distinct "BBUUUZZZZZZ!!".  Best way I can describe it.


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## Aaron_W

General Zod said:


> TIG Lift arc
> 
> The tungsten is touched to the work, the machine senses this, and then electrically turns the tungsten "hot" as it is lifted off the work piece.  Very similar to scratch start, but it is much more controlled since it relies on ramp-up rates programmed into the machine.



Just one comment to add on this, (High Frequency (HF) start is a no contact starting method. Scratch start and lift start both involve touching the tungsten to the material. Since any contact with the tip of the tungsten introduces the possibility of contamination, HF start is preferred. A new machine that doesn't have HF start is probably on the lower end of price / quality.


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## graham-xrf

My trawl through (many brands) shows a pattern of dedicated MIG machines, and a another MIG set  which offer a TIG-LIFT control. Even so, TIG seems to be the poor relation. Price-wise, many of the deals are confusing, because of the noise of other stuff in the bundles. Helmet, gloves, empty cylinder, spool gun, reels of wire, etc. but the TIG capability may require the separate TIG torch, cups, and kit not included in the bundle.

Then there is the whole class of TIG machines, offering TIG/MMA, RF start, etc. They seem to cost at least as much as MIG, and more, and, of course, don't do MIG.

I do get the impression that TIG is great, but takes longer, uses more gas, has it's own skill/learning curve, and the dedicated machine costs more.
Basically, if you want to get the best out of it, get the best MIG you can afford first. This might let you try TIG if it happens to offer TIG-LIFT.

There has to be a reason there are sophisticated current waveform control TIGs out there, which cost as much and more than MIGs.

The routes to welding aluminium can be had with both MIG and TIG, but in different ways. TIG-LIFT is not, apparently, something that can be done with aluminium.  If the machine is a dedicated TIG, and happens to be for aluminium, then RF start is used.

I would love to do TIG, but the practical consideration is that the first welder should probably be a decent MIG.


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## Aaron_W

If it helps I like having TIG available, but I wouldn't want to be without a MIG welder. 

I never did much welding before 2018, and that was mostly in high school, so a little stick and oxy fuel. I didn't know what I was missing. 
If I had to start over a good MIG welder and horizontal bandsaw would be among my first major tool purchases after basic hand tools, and some core carpentry tools. I still have stuff to do around the house that requires working with wood, so the welder has to get in line but it is a short line.   

It was like going from using a hammer and nails, to screws and a cordless drill or a pneumatic nail gun (also tools I'd hate to be without).


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## General Zod

graham-xrf said:


> I would love to do TIG, but the practical consideration is that the first welder should probably be a decent MIG.



If I had to do it all over again, I'd tell the old me to start to learn stick welding on a _good _stick welder.


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## graham-xrf

*About MIG voltage ranges*
When comparing two MIG welders, same supplier and brand, and pretty much the same specification, the only thing I can see different, aside from a minor change in the display style, is in the voltage ranges.

Machine #1 (Sherman DIGIMIG 200 SYNERGIC) ($773.35 USA or £574.00 UK)
Three modes *7V,  5V-24V,  and 7V*
- - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - 

Machine #2 (Sherman DIGIMIG 200X SYNERGIC) ($755.84 USA or £561.00 UK)
Two modes *15V, and 5V-24V*
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
They have identical, copy-paste main features blurb. Letter for letter, all texts are the same.
In the Item Specifics list, I can see that SPOT WELDING is mentioned for the cheaper machine #2 only

*Main features:*

- Automatic parameters for MIG
- High duty cycle ( 60% at 40 degrees Celsius)
- Program for aluminium welding
- Adjustable inductance
- Settings memory
- Spot welding - on Machine #2
- Fan stop
- 2T / 4T
- Welding voltage correction
- Burn back control
- Overheat protection
- Gasless welding
- Hot start
- Arc force
- Anti Stick
- VRD
- MMA welding process
- MIG welding process
- TIG DC Lift welding process
- Brazing
I would be great to discover what is the deal with the different voltage modes?


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## graham-xrf

Lo-Fi said:


> Fur what it's worth: I had a mate argue til he was blue in the face that flux core MIG is "just as good". He's super cheap. Forced a decent gas MIG into his hand... Needless to say, he hasn't looked back and has totally reversed his opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hobbyweld | Home of the Original Rent Free Gas Cylinders
> 
> 
> Hobbyweld supply a range of Rent Free Gas Cylinders, ideal for DIY and light trade welding and gas applications. Stop the rental and start saving today!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hobbyweld.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No rental charge. Just a 100% refundable bottle deposit. Refills are reasonable too and there are agents literally everywhere UK wide.


I know I hauled this back from way back near the beginning of the thread - sorry about that.
I am the sort who, back in the day (meaning pre-COVID-19), would be going through the store with calculator app dividing price by weight, and sometimes have folk after me choosing the same size pack as I did. I have tried to decode the HobbyWeld products, sizes, prices, etc.

Easy to find that there are a whole lot of rental-free cylinder gas suppliers. Even with nationwide delivery networks. For HobbyWeld, the local agents set their own prices. This had me looking at my location on the map, pretty much in the middle of an "empty" region sans agents. I find the agent "JustKampers" at Odiham.

In all this, even though these are UK prices, I include a conversion at $1.34 = £1.00, and 35.31cu ft is 1 cubic metre

The cylinders are 3 sizes, small (9L at 137bar), medium (called "Plus" 20L at 230bar) and large (called "Ultra" 20L at 300bar)
The rentals for these are 9L *£70* ,  20L Plus *£110*, and 20L Ultra *£190*. 
That last one has a special quick-release connection, so becomes *£228.85*, All these are inclusive of VAT.
The gas volume at standard pressure is given, so I start with the dividing..

Pure Argon for TIG
9L bottle at 137bar     -> £52.50   for 1.32m3  --> so *£39.77*  per cubic metre (*$1.51* /cu ft in USA $)
20L bottle at 230bar  -> £100.00  for 4.78m3  --> so *£20.92*  per cubic metre (*$0.79*  / cu ft in USA $)
20L bottle at 300bar ->  £130.25  for 6.06m3  --> so *£21.49*  per cubic metre (*£0.81*  / cu ft in USA $) *What! ??* Why more?
- - - - - - - - - - - - -

I compare to --> *This supplier in UK*  (apologies to USA folk)
(Not quite) "Rent free cylinder" Deposit -> *£60*  (*$80.40*)
The entire amount deposit is refunded if the cylinder is returned within a year. Then they use a sliding scale every 6 months such that if you don't return the bottle after 3 years, they keep the deposit.

Given that 10L is a relatively small bottle, 2.1m3 or 4.33cu ft. of gas at standard pressure I think most folk will use that up in less than a year!
10 litres pure Argon at 200bar, 2.1m3 -> $66, which is *£31.43* per cubic metre (*$1.19* /cu ft in USA $)
Free shipping nationwide.  This is completely offset by the £20 per cylinder to have the empty returned. There is "store collection", at one address between Manchester and Liverpool. So not for me!

Based on gas price alone, for the small bottle, a better deal than Homeweld!

This is a better deal than HomeWeld. They have separate deliver & collection charges, but at least they have a depot about 12 miles away.
Definitely, in getting hobby gas in deposit-only bottles without rental, one has to do a lot of details checking.
I would think it is likely just as tangled in USA.


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## graham-xrf

OK - I purchased the 200A MIG with the clever electronics + bundle of bits to get rolling. It does happen to have "TIG-LIFT" capability, but that is not it's prime design setup. When I get to TIG, I would likely get a dedicated TIG machine. I suppose a magnet square might also be a good idea.


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## vtcnc

addertooth said:


> Graham-xrf,
> 
> Yes, when I said Flux-core, I was referring to a machine which looks like a MIG welder, except it does not use bottled gas.  The welding "wire" it uses is actually a "tube", which has flux in the core.  As it heats up, not only is flux released, but the high heat converts the flux in the center and produces gasses which help shield the weld puddle as well (not to the level of a real MIG welder).  However, what has not been mentioned is the fact that flux core wire welders are much more friendly to use outside (a building) than classical MIG/TIG welders.  When Using a classical MIG/TIG welder, your "shielding gas" (CO2, CO2/Argon, Argon, Helium) can get blown away by an outside breeze.  It is the pocket of protective shield gasses which prevents the weld from getting ugly.  When that pocket of gas gets blown away, it produces a result inferior to flux-core wire welding.  This means welding "location of use" matters. If you intend to ALWAYS weld inside, then Gas-Using welders (MIG/TIG) are excellent. Flux-core welders are inside/outside welders. There is no question that gas using welder produce a "prettier weld", However, until you develop some skill, don't always trust pretty.  Do some practice welds and then cut into them afterwards to inspect the quality of the weld.  In the USA, a lot of farmers prefer Stick welding with flux-coated rods, as much of what they weld (farm equipment), has thick metal, AND they frequently must do their repairs outside.
> 
> I got started with stick welding, as it was a very economical way to get started.  Many years later I got a flux-core wire welder (which to the casual observer looks like a MIG machine, but without the gas cylinder).  For thin stuff (5/16th inch 8mm) or thinner, it works rather well. There is no question using a gas welder would produce prettier welds which would not require a wire brush to clean off the surface slag.  Flux-Core welders are (for the most part) welding steel.  Gas welders open the door to weld other materials, such as aluminum, or with TIG, even titanium.  I have seen skilled TIG welders do amazing things, such as weld two thin-walled beer cans side to side with each other (that was the employment proficiency test in a shop I worked in for people who claimed to be TIG welders).  This task was made more difficult, as they were not allowed to do surface prep.  A blow-through, or a bad weld was a fail.
> 
> My main caution is that so many people buy welding equipment which does not match their eventual needs.  Getting started with something cheap gives you time to get a feel for what your needs actually are.  It gives you a chance to figure out your scale of use.  It gives you time to sort out other details  as well (location, grinder/wire brushes, Helmet, gloves, apron, welding table, clamps, etc).  If you learn to weld correctly on a low-end machine, your welds on a  high end machine will just be better.  In the past I have been guilty of buying the tip-top super version of a tool, only to discover I only needed a fraction of the capability.  This experience has made me cautious, and now I tend to dip my toe in something new, before taking the full plunge.  Oh, and the cheap welders can frequently be sold for about 3/4 of their purchase price, as it seems that the market for inexpensive welders is always an active one.
> 
> Some day I may get one of the high end, water cooled TIG rigs, which is multi-process, and can do MIG and Plasma cutting... but for now, those are not critical needs for me. Figure out your real needs, before opening your wallet.   I realize this advice is the opposite you frequently get in this group, which will frequently suggests you buy the maximum.  If you do decide to get a super-machine, then some welding classes would be merited, so you gain the full value of the equipment you purchased.


Boy, do I think this is good advice. I bought one of the Harbor Freight "junk" FCAW about a year ago. I have learned a lot about my horrible techniques, setups, postures, patience, safety, etc. for a few hundred dollars. And I've made ugly, but effective welds. But I wouldn't say the welder is junk - everything works great on the unit. The issue is me and my learning curve - mostly patience.

The nice thing about starting out with stick or flux core is that you can fail fast, and fail cheap. Your learning curve is really quick and you can feel good about learning from your mistakes without burning through cash on more expensive welders, tungsten, filler rods, gas bottles, etc. I say all of this with the notion that you will primarily be doing steel. I know you also want to do aluminum so maybe this advice isn't helpful in the short term, but I would start simple and cheap and build up your skills from there.


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