# OK time to stop fooling around



## riversidedan (Jun 18, 2021)

since feb this year have learned a few basics "making some diffrent useful things" and am now more interested with threading, not single point but floating die tools and tap handles. Have seen some things on youtube but know nothing about finding out thread sizes, so need to go get some basic nuts/bolts sizes "to find out what Im dealing with"  also some decent SAE dies/taps and start 
playing around with that mess, >>>>>>>>>>>any helpful suggestions are welcome.....  forgot too mention how helpful this site has been so far............o


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## mmcmdl (Jun 18, 2021)

__





						tap and die chart - Google Search
					





					www.google.com


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## markba633csi (Jun 18, 2021)

I rarely use dies.  I have had variable results most times I have used them, so I never bought many.
Seems like they would always get crooked on me, but then maybe I'm just a die-dummy.  Anyhow, if I need a thread now I just single point it
-M


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## C-Bag (Jun 18, 2021)

Whats the most common bolts in your shop? Standard, metric?

Everybody has their favs and there have been many threads here HM about taps and die. Personally I like the older stuff as it’s higher quality. I buy sets because I do so much varied stuff I hate to stop because I don’t have what I need. I have sets of. Bluepoint, Craftsman Kromedge, Greenfield and Keystone. The Craftsman is the metric set. The Greenfield is a plate set and the Keystone I bought for the round dies. Bluepoint and Craftsman have thread chaser type dies. All the sets came with thread gauges. Thread gauge, and hole gauges both metric and standard are just as important as taps and dies.

I’ve tried the spring point tap handle method and was not satisfied. Ended up with floating die holder sets and a modded tap holder that is way better. I also made an expanding mount to fit in the end of my spindle with a 12” hand wheel to hand powering the tap or die.


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## Chewy (Jun 18, 2021)

Look at what you want to make.  It will probably give sizes and TPI.  I have probably 40-50 different  sizes.  They were collected over years to handle automotive and machine repairs, Imperial & Metric.  In making projects right now, I really only use 5 Imperial sizes. If you are doing blind holes, you will most likely need a bottoming tap. You can get by on some blind holes by drilling deeper and using a plug tap and removing and cleaning out every 1-1/2 turns. Slow, but if you don't have a bottoming tap, you make do.  On my designs, I try, where ever possible to tap 1/2" of threads and plan 3/8" engagement with the fastener.
With that said, I'm starting to set up to do steam engines.  That will mean around 10-12 ME and BA sizes. But i haven't needed them for 50 years.  Don't buy taps and dies from the big box stores.  They don't last. Buy at least store brand from Travers, KBC, MSC, McMaster-Carr.
The sets C-Bag listed are good brands and I have some of each except for Keystone.


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## riversidedan (Jun 19, 2021)

ok thanx, when I go into a certain HW chain type stores theyll have a board with diffrent nuts  and bolts sticking out so you can see diffrent sizes, but still you cant take that home but might be helpful to make one for learning purposes


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## Bi11Hudson (Jun 19, 2021)

Look at all the charts you can find. Then do the same with metric. Then do the same with automobiles, and aircraft, and boats, and tubing, and pipe, and the plethora of machining projects, and . . .  Count 'em all up than add a couple or three just for kicks. That's about how many different thread pitches there are. Then there's a "V-sharp, and ACME, and butress, and square, ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

Take the process slowly and study what you need to know for this gizmo. It may fall in line with that other job. . . or maybe not. I am archaic in my thinking, I think in USS, SAE, and metric. Thread forms and pitches have been modified several times just in my lifespan. To study thread forms at the very fine level, may I suggest a copy of the book "Machinery's Handbook". A new, current edition contains a lot of manufacturing information that is fairly current. That's what they're for. I would suggest, for a novice something a little older, from World War 2 through about 1960. Usable information, but without the automation and specialty information. Things that a "casual" student could use. They can be found on eBay regularly. Get a "rough" copy to start, one you can spill oil on, and tear a page, and leave open to collect chips as you work. Once you have a handle on the subject, then acquire a "smooth" copy for the bookshelf.

For what it's worth, I have been working with threaded fasteners since childhood. Very early childhood. I was my Pop's runner. . . I am now in my 70th year. . . And still learning something new most every day. It takes time, lots of it. And experience. Go where you need to go and remember things you see in passing. They may not seem as too important right then, but over time it will all come together.

A hardware store board is a good starting point. But is not inclusive in the least. I have dozens of taps and dies, most have been used in the past but often not today. But I don't throw anything out, may need it one day. . . And one last word, dies do serve a purpose. I single point where I can, but more often must use a die. Learn the proper way to use one so you get usable results.

.


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## Ulma Doctor (Jun 19, 2021)

i can usually tell pitch, diameter, metric, SAE, USS-etc, by eye
it always is a great idea to check pitch with a gauge

a master in of the study of threading is worthy of doctorate status, IMO.

get a couple tap charts, machinists handbook, and a bit of study- you're off and running!!!
practical study may involve USS, SAE, and Metric fasteners, all dependent on your choice of where to start
Metric fasteners have slowly permeated into every day life, if your interests lie in repairing newer things, a grasp of metric fasteners is a must
USS, and SAE are generally used in older US built equipment, machinery, and vehicles- these were our standards for years

good luck, have fun- there's lots to learn!


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## jwmay (Jun 19, 2021)

I guess nobody said to be prepared to spend money.  The dIes at your local whatzits store are junk....all of them.  Buy high speed steel thread dies.   Union Butterfield and OSG are the only ones I can remember off hand.  I don't buy sets, because a set could cost 500 dollars...and that doesn't guarantee you get good stuff.  Because it's all too easy for a company to throw a high price on a carbon steel set too.   I bought local, and lost plenty of time and effort to that.  That's my 2 cents. Good luck and have fun!


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## brino (Jun 19, 2021)

1) First I must echo: Do not buy taps and dies at your local hardware store. They are CRAP!
I now only buy decent taps and dies from tool suppliers, it will save you money and frustration.
Always get high-speed steel (HSS).

2) it always amazes me how easily both taps and dies can be started off "off square" and give the appearance that everything is okay for a few turns..... but then inevitably comes the hard turning, unable to reverse, lock-up, and "snap". Followed by the ruined parts and swearing.
It is always best to start either taps or dies in the lathe, drill press or mill where the hole was drilled and use some kind of guide to align them.
Check out Big Gator tools for an assortment of tap guides you can use at the bench.

3) old, standard taps come in three types: taper, plug and bottoming. It is basically about how much taper is on the end of the tap. A taper tap is much easier to start into a hole, a bottoming tap is very difficult to start first, it should really be used after one of the others and is really only meant to thread to the bottom of a blind hole. When threading with taps and dies for every turn forward make a half turn back to "break chips".

4) You can now find much improved tap styles that offer reduced cutting forces and better ship management.
A spiral-point tap will push the chips forward thru the hole. They are best used for thru-holes.
A spiral-flute tap will pull the chips back out towards the tap handle. They are great for blind holes.
The difference is very noticeable!

5) Use cutting oil when cutting threads. I like the pipe threading oil from the hardware store for steel, and odorless (paraffin based) lamp oil for aluminum.

A few other bits to understand/investigate:

The wikipedia page for taps and dies is not a bad place to start: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tap_and_die

I like this threading chart from Little Machine Shop: https://littlemachineshop.com/reference/TapDrillSizes.pdf
I have multiple copies printed and laminated in my shop. It has imperial on one side and metric on the other.
Be aware that it also shows multiple drill sizes for each thread!
It shows drill sizes for creating 75% thread and for creating 100% thread.
It is up to the user (You!) to know when to use which column!

Well this is turning into a book, but it is all stuff that I learned the hard way and could save a newbie some time and effort........I'd better sign-off.

Please let us know how you make out!

-brino


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## Winegrower (Jun 19, 2021)

If you want to have fun while threading, look into Geometric die heads and chasers.    The die head fits in the tailstock, and you pop in a set of four “chasers”, for the particular thread form and pitch desired.   The thread is cut like a die would, on the end of the part, but when you get to the exact depth you want, the head trips and opens the chasers, stopping the threading instantly while the lathe continues to turn.   In my experience these cut perfectly square to the work, the threads are beautiful, and it’s FAST!

There are an incredible number of pitches available for pretty reasonable prices.  Check eBay.

See Mr. Pete on this:    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...=MKibz_wftEw&usg=AOvVaw1f8Fo3b_ZPZpYEzgKbR6Ja


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## Chewy (Jun 19, 2021)

The guys have told you about the same stuff.  Don't buy cheap stuff and get the charts and info from the WEB.  The name brands they recommended have a proven track record. The high sulfur oil that Brino talks about is in the plumbing section, but may not be available in  your local store since the the stores pick and choose what they carry.  Goggle machinery handbook pdf and you will go to the archive spot for the 29th edition.  Bottom right of page has download selections.  Pick the one you like.  The book is around 4000 pages. Find the information you want and print off the pages and start a notebook.  I use charts on the front of mine that show decimal equivalents and tap and drill sizes.  All for free.  My note book contains, sine and knurling and math formulas for triangles and some more. 
If you are serious about threading, you will need a micrometer, thread gauges and thread wires.   There are also plastic thread checkers available for about $5 from hardware stores and online.  You can also buy a single screw or bolt of a known thread and start your own thread checker, but this will be expensive. 
Starting the tap straight will be your biggest challenge.  Every You Tuber out there has guides and die-stocks on their site.  The simplest way is to take a piece of steel 1/2-5/8" thick and dill a straight clearance hole.  I use that about  50-60 percent of the time.


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## markba633csi (Jun 19, 2021)

Not only are there many different thread sizes and pitches, but nowadays you have about sixty zillion types of heads on bolts including torx and all the variants
-Mark


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## Mitch Alsup (Jun 19, 2021)

As far as using threaded stuff, I standardized on 4-40 and 1/4-20 and nothing in between. 4-40 for small stuff and up to 20-odd pounds of force, 14/20 for larger things and up to 200 pounds of force (4140). This minimizes the number of taps and dies one needs.

As far as dies go, I use them mainly to chase already threaded parts after doing some machining on them.


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## Chewy (Jun 19, 2021)

Not to mention proprietary threads!!!  I use 10-24 for Aluminum, & 10-32 for steel,  4-40, 1/4-20 , 3/8-16 for both & 1/4-28 for 1/4 & 3/16" steel plates.  That covers 90% of what I do. The 1/4-20, 10-24 & 32 I buy in multiples.   I do have a full assortment of Imperial 4-40 to 1" and Metric from 4M to 12M.  Some of them haven't been used in years.  If you have nothing, a good stater set from one of the name brands is OK, but expensive and you will be years in using some of the stuff.


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## Chewy (Jun 19, 2021)

I want to add something here.  If your just starting out, you will try to keep the taps & dies forever, because they are still good.  That will be your biggest mistake!  A good tap will tun easily.  If the pressure increases, the tap looks like it is starting to twist, It catches, back it out and throw it away.!!!   The tap can chew up the threads, ruining what you are making or worse break off and you can't get it out.
You have heard the story, pay a little now or a lot later.  Well this is cry a little now or a whole lot later, with a little head bashing thrown in.

Some professional gunsmiths have been known to buy a new tap for each job.  The cost of a barrel vs a tap is huge.


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## C-Bag (Jun 19, 2021)

Chewy said:


> Some professional gunsmiths have been known to buy a new tap for each job. The cost of a barrel vs a tap is huge.


yup, breaking a tap off in a project you've just spent hours and $$ on will break you of buying junk taps.


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## C-Bag (Jun 19, 2021)

Chewy said:


> Some of them haven't been used in years. If you have nothing, a good stater set from one of the name brands is OK, but expensive and you will be years in using some of the stuff.


This is why I've had super good luck with buying quality sets used. My Bluepoint set was used, $20. The only set I ever got new was the Craftsman that I got for Christmas one year like in the 70's. Most of what's in my sets have never been used, but in the last couple of years I've used more of my sets than ever before. I was getting ready to do a big long project and one of the best investments I made was a tapping machine. That's for the jobs that don't fit in the lathe. I've not(knocks on wooden head) broken a tap since getting and using it. I bought it because I broke a 3/8 tap from the Bluepoint set because it got a little cockeyed.


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## benmychree (Jun 19, 2021)

There is a plastic stand sold that has holes for taps, coarse and fine, with matching holes for the tap drill and body size holes, the one that I have has all the common sizes from number sizes and up to 1/2" in fractional sizes, this is a great way to keep all those drills and taps in an orderly and convenient fashion.


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## 7milesup (Jun 19, 2021)

riversidedan said:


> when I go into a certain HW chain type stores theyll have a board with diffrent nuts and bolts sticking out so you can see diffrent sizes, but still you cant take that home











						McMaster-Carr
					

McMaster-Carr is the complete source for your plant with over 595,000 products. 98% of products ordered ship from stock and deliver same or next day.




					www.mcmaster.com
				












						McMaster-Carr
					

McMaster-Carr is the complete source for your plant with over 595,000 products. 98% of products ordered ship from stock and deliver same or next day.




					www.mcmaster.com


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## hman (Jun 19, 2021)

I'll add just one more thread size to the lists that others have posted ... 1/2-12.  It's a no-longer-standard inch thread that's used in a few Chinese imports.  According to rumor, some Chinese are very superstitious, and consider 13 (as in 1/2-13 UNC) to be unlucky.  So I guess they looked at an ancient inch thread chart and found/adopted this thread.  I've run into it twice in the last couple years.


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## mmcmdl (Jun 19, 2021)

1/2-13 , 1/2-12  I just tell 'em what does one thread per inch matter in a plant this big ?


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## C-Bag (Jun 19, 2021)

hman said:


> I'll add just one more thread size to the lists that others have posted ... 1/2-12.  It's a no-longer-standard inch thread that's used in a few Chinese imports.  According to rumor, some Chinese are very superstitious, and consider 13 (as in 1/2-13 UNC) to be unlucky.  So I guess they looked at an ancient inch thread chart and found/adopted this thread.  I've run into it twice in the last couple years.


I had never heard or seen this until I was trying to repurpose one of the drill press handles from my 80’s vintage RF30. I had to buy a 1/2-12 tap and I had a hard time finding one! Probably never need it again, I just know if I got rid of it I’d need it.


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## .LMS. (Jun 19, 2021)

C-Bag said:


> I had never heard or seen this until I was trying to repurpose one of the drill press handles from my 80’s vintage RF30. I had to buy a 1/2-12 tap and I had a hard time finding one! Probably never need it again, I just know if I got rid of it I’d need it.


you could probably rent it out here at make money on the deal....


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## Shotgun (Jun 21, 2021)

riversidedan said:


> ok thanx, when I go into a certain HW chain type stores theyll have a board with diffrent nuts  and bolts sticking out so you can see diffrent sizes, but still you cant take that home but might be helpful to make one for learning purposes


Home Depot sells a plastic gizmo for sizing bolts.  That'll get you into the ballpark.  

I made a shelf from 1/2"x6" boards.  Cut the sides off of 1qt oil bottles.  Write the bolt diameter and thread size on the front.  A bottle will hold all lengths of that size, plus nuts.  With the cut-off side opening at the top, the spout sticks out of the shelf like a handle to grab.  Drill a hole for the tap and corresponding drill bit in the bottle spout.  The shelves are just a little higher than the bottles.  A 3'x4' shelf will hold six shelves, and dozens upon dozens of bottles.  I have enough room for all the bolts I've amassed, nails, screws, bearings, and just plain miscellaneous "small part stuff".


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## Bi11Hudson (Jun 21, 2021)

Many of the responses seem to relate to tapping where the original question was for using dies. Male VS female threads. . . Most of the posts are on point, tapping is more difficult than cutting external threads. And the failures can be more, much more, costly. Not just in money, but frustration among other things.

"Single pointing" threads on a lathe is most ideal. The concentricity is as near perfect as the particular machine permits. But, this is based on a simple premise, that the part can be mounted in a lathe. Which, in my case, is rare. Yes, I make fasteners for odd sizes and "unconventional" threads. Those are done on a lathe simply because there are no taps or dies for that particular size. They sinply don't exist, in most cases.

Consider 1/2-40, a very odd size. I have a tap (from long ago) but where to find a die?!? Besides, the requirements of the job demanded it be cut on a lathe. What comes to mind when discussing (more like cussing) dies was a job where the base stock was 1/8 brazing rod. Brazing rod is only "about" round. And "about" 1/8 diameter. Using a die, 5-40, solved several problems at the same time. Not only did it cut the threads, but provided a way to trim off high spots as I fed the die in the lathe.

Bit of a toss-up in my opinion. What do you do when the threads must be 6 inches long on a piece threaded for Nr 4-40. Single pointing requires a "follow rest". A die simply follows any irregularities. But must be started true. But "prep" work is important. I didn't use (didn't possess) a die feeding device. So had to cut down the first 1/8 inch or so to start the die true to the work. The first few times I didn't and the results were questionable at best. When the die runs out of true on a hand cutting job, it isn't really noticable. Until it's time to run a nut down it. The nut "wobbles" as it runs. That means the threads are high on one side. Which comes from starting the die "almost but not quite" true to the work. It's difficult to describe, but when you do have a bad start, you'll know it in short order as the die wobbles as it cuts.

There are several methods for starting a die. Most apply to a given situation, and work only in that siruation. Pipe dies are a a good example of a starting fixture. If you need to cut up to a shoulder (or fitting), the cutting dies must be reversed in the head. Try that for a Nr 4 machine screw, just once. You'll quickly decide there must be a better way.

.


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## Ken226 (Jun 21, 2021)

hman said:


> I'll add just one more thread size to the lists that others have posted ... 1/2-12.  It's a no-longer-standard inch thread that's used in a few Chinese imports.  According to rumor, some Chinese are very superstitious, and consider 13 (as in 1/2-13 UNC) to be unlucky.  So I guess they looked at an ancient inch thread chart and found/adopted this thread.  I've run into it twice in the last couple years.




Yea

I ran into that on my PM935TS while swapping it to 3 phase.   The motor had 1/2-12 mounting screws.   

I drilled and tapped the new motor for 1/2-13 and bought a new screw and lever nut.  The number 13 doesn't bother me.    I ain't scared


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## chatter chatter cut cut (Jun 22, 2021)

there are several utube videos on building a die holder for threading on a lathe .its not hard to make one.


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## brino (Jun 22, 2021)

@chatter chatter cut cut 

Welcome to the group!

-brino


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## riversidedan (Jun 30, 2021)

Shotgun said:


> Home Depot sells a plastic gizmo for sizing bolts.  That'll get you into the ballpark.
> 
> I made a shelf from 1/2"x6" boards.  Cut the sides off of 1qt oil bottles.  Write the bolt diameter and thread size on the front.  A bottle will hold all lengths of that size, plus nuts.  With the cut-off side opening at the top, the spout sticks out of the shelf like a handle to grab.  Drill a hole for the tap and corresponding drill bit in the bottle spout.  The shelves are just a little higher than the bottles.  A 3'x4' shelf will hold six shelves, and dozens upon dozens of bottles.  I have enough room for all the bolts I've amassed, nails, screws, bearings, and just plain miscellaneous "small part stuff".
> 
> ...


hey thats the same one I just got, just trying to figure it out


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## chatter chatter cut cut (Jul 3, 2021)

there are several utube videos on making a die holder for the lathe.and for a tap follower . these two items are not hard to make and work great for tapping straight holes or bolts.


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## MrWhoopee (Jul 3, 2021)

benmychree said:


> There is a plastic stand sold that has holes for taps, coarse and fine, with matching holes for the tap drill and body size holes, the one that I have has all the common sizes from number sizes and up to 1/2" in fractional sizes, this is a great way to keep all those drills and taps in an orderly and convenient fashion.


We issued these to all of our machinists, fully loaded. I lost mine in the transition to private life and missed it very much. The stands are not as common as they used to be, nor are they as cheap as they should be. I finally got one from Dave for a more reasonable price.  I painted it white then sanded off the tops of the text to make it more readable. They are real time savers.
Penn Tool carries them.








						Precise Tap and Drill Stand, Inch, For No. 2 through 1/2" NC and NF Taps - DTS-235
					

Offering a huge selection of industrial tool sales online. Find over 100,000 metalworking products, precision measuring tools, power tools & accessories.




					www.penntoolco.com
				







To build my collection of taps and dies, I bought several lots of assorted HSS on eBay. I generally paid about $2 per. Now I just order the occasional piece that got missed. 

For tapping in both the lathe and mill I use a piloted tap handle. 



I made a floating die holder for the lathe. It's an excellent project for a beginner and ensures that the die starts straight.
Mine looks very much like this one.


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## riversidedan (Jul 3, 2021)

cant really see that tap/drill chart too clearly but am guessing it will tell you what drill to use for a certain tap......but cant justify $44 

also like that floating die holder but only had inch bar stock so had to by the ready made set, but will make that a future project for sure


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