# Found this on the ways of my new mill...



## xnaron (Jan 27, 2020)

Found this little beauty on the X axis way on my new mill...It's about a 10mm high by 3mm wide.  Its pretty deep.  Probably a flaw in the casting.  I ran a stone over it to make sure it didn't have a sharp edge.  I don't think it will be a problem.  It'll probably just hold some oil which is a good thing.  Anyone disagree?


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## DavidR8 (Jan 27, 2020)

New mill as in brand new or new to you?


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## xnaron (Jan 27, 2020)

DavidR8 said:


> New mill as in brand new or new to you?



Brand new.


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## mikey (Jan 27, 2020)

Yup, casting flaw. Shouldn't cause any issues in use.


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## DavidR8 (Jan 27, 2020)

What @mikey said!


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## Cooter Brown (Jan 27, 2020)

Well its time to scrap the machine... Its garbage now throw it out......


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## Superburban (Jan 27, 2020)

Agree, as long as nothing is above the surface, it will not be an issue. A reservoir to refill the felts.


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## benmychree (Jan 28, 2020)

I would fill it with JB Weld and carefully finish it flush, chips could lodge in it and cut the saddle when it is run over the hole.


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## Cooter Brown (Jan 28, 2020)

benmychree said:


> I would fill it with JB Weld and carefully finish it flush, chips could lodge in it and cut the saddle when it is run over the hole.





NO.


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## benmychree (Jan 28, 2020)

Saying simply NO. is not a reason; elaborate as to why you think this is not a good plan.  Back in the day, they might have undercut such a defect and fill it with babbit, peened in, and finished it off flush, it would not be left as an open hole.  I say YES! and have given reasons for my opinion.


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## xnaron (Jan 28, 2020)

benmychree said:


> I would fill it with JB Weld and carefully finish it flush, chips could lodge in it and cut the saddle when it is run over the hole.



I would be concerned that the JB Weld might wear the gibs differently than the cast iron over time.  I am not sure if this would be an issue or not.

As the machine is new it might be a better option for me to deal with it via warranty.


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## middle.road (Jan 28, 2020)

Well, if they don't replace it for you I would fill it with something. 
Even though you've stoned it there is still a sharp albeit rough edge/ridge all around that void. 
That will cause wear on the mating piece over time. Add to it the fact that whatever might be down inside that void is unknown.
Take at look that the methods used when adding oil grooves to bed ways. It's common practice to break the edge.
Since whatever is down inside that void is unknown I would steer clear of loosening anything.


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## xnaron (Jan 28, 2020)

middle.road said:


> Well, if they don't replace it for you I would fill it with something.
> Even though you've stoned it there is still a sharp albeit rough edge/ridge all around that void.
> That will cause wear on the mating piece over time. Add to it the fact that whatever might be down inside that void is unknown.
> Take at look that the methods used when adding oil grooves to bed ways. It's common practice to break the edge.
> Since whatever is down inside that void is unknown I would steer clear of loosening anything.



I've sent an email to the seller to see what they can do.  One thing I asked is whether the table is matched to the saddle as it would be easier to swap the table rather than the entire machine.


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## benmychree (Jan 28, 2020)

Yes, it should be filled with something to exclude crud from accumulating, but trying to get it replaced should be the first order of business.


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## middle.road (Jan 28, 2020)

You might want to post a link to this thread over in the "ALL ABOUT MACHINE RESTORATION & WAY SCRAPING" section.
One of the folks over there might not see this over here.








						ALL ABOUT MACHINE RESTORATION & WAY SCRAPING
					

Learn methods of restoring a machine to new or better performance through precision scraping of ways in this forum!




					www.hobby-machinist.com


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## Boswell (Jan 28, 2020)

Interesting. My Mill has a one shot oiler and so there are channels cut into the ways to allow the oil to distribute. However, I never see them because they are covered up by the matching flats on the table unless I move the table to the extreme left of right. I would think that the stoning that the OP did would remove any high spot and sharp edges and then what is the problem with having a small cavity filled with way oil. BTW, I can't really tell from the pictures where on the Ways the cavity is.


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## xnaron (Jan 28, 2020)

ugh...I looked on the ways on the back of the table and found 2 more flaws.


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## middle.road (Jan 28, 2020)

This is getting worse. 
Who made this mill?


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## xnaron (Jan 28, 2020)

middle.road said:


> This is getting worse.
> Who made this mill?



It is a CX601 made by weiss and sold by BusyBee tools. I'll be pursuing a replacement.  Downside is I need to rent a trailer to move it.


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## middle.road (Jan 28, 2020)

What a PitA. *SIGH*
$3K?! It should be a lot better quality. At $750, then yeah, maybe. but not at $3K...
It's not like that is not a common design.
Friday afternoon, end-of-shift built?


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## xnaron (Jan 28, 2020)

middle.road said:


> What a PitA. *SIGH*
> $3K?! It should be a lot better quality. At $750, then yeah, maybe. but not at $3K...
> It's not like that is not a common design.
> Friday afternoon, end-of-shift built?



Yeah I'm pretty disappointed now.  It is a major pain to exchange it.  Other than these flaws and a bit of flakey paint on the front I was happy with it.


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## toploader (Jan 28, 2020)

No way I would accept that quality if I paid a premium price.


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## xnaron (Jan 30, 2020)

Correspondence with seller removed until situation is resolved


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## DavidR8 (Jan 30, 2020)

Wow, that's a rather stunning response from them.
You might want to give the local office of the Better Business Bureau a call just in case. I had issues with a car dealership once and one call to the BBB got me an immediate refund.


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## xnaron (Jan 30, 2020)

DavidR8 said:


> Wow, that's a rather stunning response from them.



will post an update when situation is resolved


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## DavidR8 (Jan 30, 2020)

xnaron said:


> Yeah they are just setting me up for a big PFO.  They factory will probably say something like yeah don't worry about it as it won't affect the performance.  Which is true until it pulls in some crud/chips as others pointed out.  This will wear the gib strip on the front side and the ways on the back.
> 
> My last mill was a G0704 and I had a few issues with it.  Grizzly stood behind their product and had excellent customer service.  I wanted a bigger mill and was going to get the PM-30MV from Precision Matthews but it was pretty costly to import to Canada.  I came across the CX601 at BusyBee Tools and saw one in the store and it looked good and it would cost me about $1000 cdn less.  I should have forked out the extra money.


I would definitely call the Better Business Bureau. Get in there before the 30 day period.


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## Reddinr (Jan 30, 2020)

The flaws obviously must have been caused by you, by the improper use of the rubber mallet in the top photo.    
Best of luck to you getting this straightened out.

For comparison sake, I have a casting problem like that on the X axis of my IH CNC mill I've been running for ~8 or so years (hobby usage rate).  No noticeable problems with gibs or operation.  I never filled mine in.


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## mikey (Jan 30, 2020)

Sucks that they don't stand behind their products. If they won't exchange yours for a new one without casting flaws then maybe they will issue you at least a partial refund. I would take it and fill those holes with some JB Weld and stone it flat. Then use the machine and your gibs won't even notice the defects are there.


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## Latinrascalrg1 (Jan 30, 2020)

If you paid via credit card or pay pal I would start that ball rolling by notifying them of this problem and what steps you having taken this far to rectify the issue before the return limit hits.


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## middle.road (Jan 30, 2020)

Latinrascalrg1 said:


> If you paid via credit card or pay pal I would start that ball rolling by notifying them of this problem and what steps you having taken this far to rectify the issue before the return limit hits.


Bingo! Credit Card purchase. [fingers-crossed]
I'm wondering what the condition of the gibs might be. Good or Bad?

BBB doesn't do much these days. They'll log a complaint but that is about all.


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## DavidR8 (Jan 30, 2020)

middle.road said:


> BBB doesn't do much these days. They'll log a complaint but that is about all.


It depends whether or not anyone else has lodged a complaint. If they have then they are more likely to act. 
Certainly that was my experience.


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## Latinrascalrg1 (Jan 30, 2020)

DavidR8 said:


> It depends whether or not anyone else has lodged a complaint. If they have then they are more likely to act.
> Certainly that was my experience.


Lol the BBB is a joke that has Absolutely no power to do anything for anyone other then issue a "shame on you report" that again means nada!


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## DavidR8 (Jan 30, 2020)

Latinrascalrg1 said:


> Lol the BBB is a joke that has Absolutely no power to do anything for anyone other then issue a "shame on you report" that again means nada!



All I can relate is my experience.
A car dealership refused to give me back a $500 deposit required for a used car test drive after I drove said car to my mechanic for a once over where numerous issues were found. 

I call the BBB who told me there were numerous complaints about the dealership. Within an hour I got a call from the manager to come and get my money. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Chipper5783 (Jan 31, 2020)

xnaron said:


> Yeah I'm pretty disappointed now.  It is a major pain to exchange it.  Other than these flaws and a bit of flakey paint on the front I was happy with it.


Sorry to hear about your concern with your new mill.  Good luck on getting a satisfactory resolution.  Hopefully BB will provide the support you are looking for.  

A topic that comes up on this discussion board is the desire to get a good machine for cheap.  One challenge being various definitions of “good“ and “cheap”.  You stated in an earlier post that you made your selection based on a lower price point.  I don’t know all the options for a machine that size -  it looks like the absolute bottom of the scale.  That there are a few issues should not really be a surprise.

When I faced the same decision, I purchased a slightly smaller “old iron” mill for a similar price (3800, but quite a few attachments).  The result is 4x the weight, requires 3 phase power and takes the space of a knee mill.  The work envelope is less than what you have.

When purchasing a machine, there are many trade offs.  You have a machine that was cheap to buy, is easy to move, easy to power, easy and cheap to get tooling for.  Okay, it is not perfect - but buying the cheapest offering available usually comes with surprises.  I’d suggest you go with it.  Fix the machine up as best you can - it is your entry level machine to get you into a really great activity.  Stay with it and learn to use it.  On your next machine you will be more knowledgeable. Hopefully you are more satisfied with the lathe (don’t be surprised if there are some issues with it too).

Good luck.  Let us know how you make out.  Regards, David


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## ErichKeane (Jan 31, 2020)

Note that their factory in China won't respond until at least middle of next week, the country is on 'extended new year vacation' due to the coronavirus.  I'll bet its mid-Feb at earliest when you hear back.

That said, it shouldn't be your problem. I'd insist on the return immediately, otherwise reverse the charges with the credit card company as a defective product.


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## Firstgear (Jan 31, 2020)

That is the typical Chinese product....”good enough!”......When it’s good enough that’s all it needs in their eyes....think Japanese stuff from the 50’s and 60’s.....it will get better but this is going to take a long time.  Also unless your supplier is making visits to their factory to hammer home quality, that supplier will always have this kind of issues.  

Precision Matthews minimizes the issues by going to their shop in China and seeing first hand what is being shipped.  Sorry for your problem.


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## xnaron (Jan 31, 2020)

Chipper5783 said:


> A topic that comes up on this discussion board is the desire to get a good machine for cheap.  One challenge being various definitions of “good“ and “cheap”.  You stated in an earlier post that you made your selection based on a lower price point.  I don’t know all the options for a machine that size -  it looks like the absolute bottom of the scale.  That there are a few issues should not really be a surprise.



Thanks David.  I should clarify that the price of the CX601 is almost the same as the Precision Matthews PM-30MV.  It was the shipping and customs fees that were about $900 (cdn).  When I said lower price point it wasn't a lesser quality mill  (at least in my eyes) it was just cheaper because I did not have to pay for shipping.  

My previous mill was a grizzly G0704.  I converted it to cnc (details here http://xnaron.com/cnc-mill/ ).  I am planning to convert this mill to CNC as well.  That is one reason why I would like to have a machine without defects in the ways as I will be pumping a lot of money into it.

I have gone through the lathe and haven't found any major issues.  The stand came with a big dent in it that makes the base sit uneven.  You could tell that it was a used item as it had been repackaged.  I called the store manager immediately when I got home and unboxed it and he put one on order for me as they did not have one in stock.  He said he put a note in my file about it and I have checked with him every couple of weeks to seefif it is in stock.

*

*


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## xnaron (Jan 31, 2020)

ErichKeane said:


> Note that their factory in China won't respond until at least middle of next week, the country is on 'extended new year vacation' due to the coronavirus.  I'll bet its mid-Feb at earliest when you hear back.
> 
> That said, it shouldn't be your problem. I'd insist on the return immediately, otherwise reverse the charges with the credit card company as a defective product.



Yeah I am worried about that as well.  I don't think credit card companies here in Canada can do reversals as easy as they are done in the US.  At least that has been my experience when I have called in the past.


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## kb58 (Jan 31, 2020)

It's striking a balance point of pain:

On the one hand: Suck it up, with the thinking "This is typical import machine quality" and keep it. I'd consider leaving the voids as they are, with it likely that they won't be an issue, OR, look into possibly brazing the void (though I admit a concern about heat distortion).

On the other hand: There's fighting the system, raising your blood pressure and stress, trying to correct the situation, risking damage on its way back to them. AND, assuming you get a replacement, there's no guarantee that it'll be any better.


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## vtcnc (Jan 31, 2020)

Cooter Brown said:


> Well its time to scrap the machine... Its garbage now throw it out......


...onto my trailer.


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## Janderso (Jan 31, 2020)

Xnaron,
Receiving a new milling machine should be an exciting time. Going through what you are now just puts a damper on the experience.
Speaking as a long time manager at a Ford dealership, give them a bit of time to satisfy your concerns. The retailer doesn't want this experience either.
It's in their best interests to be able to satisfy you and I bet that's what they are going to try do.
Good luck to you and I'm sorry this happened to you.


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## Chipper5783 (Jan 31, 2020)

Xnaron, are you a CNBC developer, or something?  I checked out you G0704 conversion - wow, that was some serious effort.  Just  curiosity on my part, the CX601 doesn’t seem like much of a step up from the G0704. What is the impetus for this new build?

I suspect that the Asian machine manufacturer’s job out a lot of their work, but they don’t all use the same approach.  The castings will appear identical in machines from numerous manufacturer.  I suspect some lower end manufacturers just make the brand sticker.  Others will take a much larger roll - so while the castings may look the same, the build quality will be significantly better.  Since castings don’t all come out perfect, the lower end builders will get the casting that have been rejected by the higher end builders.

Have you checked out some of David Best’s efforts, where he started with a PM machine, then went right through rebuilding and upgrading to what he wanted? He has separate builds for each of his major projects.  similar to you, he was planning to put significant time and money into the build, so he elected to start with a reasonable quality level of machine.

Glad that the lathe looks good so far and they are addressing the dented stand issue.

David


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## Dabbler (Jan 31, 2020)

In the flurry of criticisms and comments, may I please have a say as well?  Although I am not partial to BB, I had a BB mill for 15+ years and was very happy with it, as was the next owner.  My current small lathe, a 12X37 is also a BB, and it works very well.  (I own 2 others)

Flaws in milling machine castings are becoming more common, as there is less room for rejecting castings to achieve these low price points.  For the US listeners, you can expect to pay +50 to +70% for a mill in CAD. Used machinery is more than double premium prices in the US. 

If these flaws are in a place where chips can gather, then they must be filled:  with what and how are outside the scope of this thread.  Let's see what BB does about this, and report back as the situation evolves.  There at least 20 Albertan Machinists that are members on this site, which represent some buying power and an audience that BB should respect.

I'm very interested in what they say.  Did you buy in Edmonton or in Calgary?  I'll also post about your problem in the Calgary Metalworker's group which has about 80 members.  they'd love to show their support.


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## xnaron (Jan 31, 2020)

I've removed the conversation with the seller from my post. I am going to give them a chance to make things right. If they don't I will repost the details again in this thread.  I'll post back here when I hear back from them but I don't expect that to be until after February 10th as it sounds like Chinese New year has been extended.  this puts me in a vulnerable position as it will be one day after my 30-day return/exchange warranty expires.


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## xnaron (Jan 31, 2020)

Dabbler said:


> I'm very interested in what they say.  Did you buy in Edmonton or in Calgary?  I'll also post about your problem in the Calgary Metalworker's group which has about 80 members.  they'd love to show their support.



Thank you. I purchased it in Edmonton.


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## xnaron (Jan 31, 2020)

Chipper5783 said:


> Xnaron, are you a CNBC developer, or something?  I checked out you G0704 conversion - wow, that was some serious effort.  Just  curiosity on my part, the CX601 doesn’t seem like much of a step up from the G0704. What is the impetus for this new build?



I like to build cnc machines.  I have built many types of cnc machines from routers, laser cutters, 3d printers to pcb milling machines.   I sold the G0704 many years ago.  I wanted a larger machine.  The CX601 is almost twice the weight of the G0704.  A much beefier machine for what I want to do with it.


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## xnaron (Feb 5, 2020)

I am happy to report back that the head office of the seller called me on Monday and said I could bring my mill into the store for an exchange.  I arranged to take a vacation day from work and picked it up today.  I spent about an hour cleaning everything up and the ways look good so far.   I am happy the seller stood behind their product and their exchange policy.  I am really happy with the service I have received from the local store manager.  He is a really good natured guy and easy to deal with. I'll be a returning customer.


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## DavidR8 (Feb 5, 2020)

That’s awesome news. 
I’m very happy that it’s worked out for you. 

I’ll be interested to hear how you get on with your mill as I have my eye on the King version. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## xnaron (Feb 5, 2020)

DavidR8 said:


> That’s awesome news.
> I’m very happy that it’s worked out for you.
> 
> I’ll be interested to hear how you get on with your mill as I have my eye on the King version.
> ...



If it is the one sold by kms tools kc20vs2 it is not a comparable machine.  That one is more like the grizzly g0704 or pm-25mv which is smaller and much lighter.  The CX601 is the same size and weight as the Precision Matthews pm-30mv.  Maybe King sells a bigger one?


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## DavidR8 (Feb 5, 2020)

xnaron said:


> If it is the one sold by kms tools it is not a comparable machine.  That one is more like the grizzly g0704 or pm-25mv which is smaller and much lighter.  The CX601 is the same size and weight as the Precision Matthews pm-30mv.  Maybe King sells a bigger one?


Whoops my mistake you are absolutely correct. It is a clone/twin (?) of the 0704


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## derfatdutchman (Feb 5, 2020)

Good to hear they took care of you.


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## Dabbler (Feb 5, 2020)

I'm really gad it worked out!


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## Thriller (May 17, 2020)

I am glad everything worked out in the end. I do however hope you can give me some more info from a user point of view about the difference between the CX601 and the G0704 as I am in the process of trying to find a mill used or new. From what I understand the CX600 and the king Canada 20vs and the G0704 are approximately the same machines. I would have loved to see any of them in person and made the 3 hr trip to Calgary a few days ago but busy bee had no stock on either even if you could get into the store. Went to KMS tools and they had no stock on the 20VS. 

I am just learning and wanted to practice on small things since space is at a premium. So how much more capable is the CX601 vs the G0704 in your opinion? Thanks in advance since there is lots of info on the Grizzly but not much on the Craftex. 


xnaron said:


> I like to build cnc machines.  I have built many types of cnc machines from routers, laser cutters, 3d printers to pcb milling machines.   I sold the G0704 many years ago.  I wanted a larger machine.  The CX601 is almost twice the weight of the G0704.  A much beefier machine for what I want to do with it.


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