# CNC decision paralysis - Probably Tormach



## echesak

I've been planning to get a CNC for a while.  But I finally made a firm decision and am downsizing my astrophotography gear.  I'm planning to use the funds to purchase a CNC machine.  I've gone through a lot of analysis looking at Bridgeport-style, converting my Series 1, and some of the high-end machines (Haas, etc.).  After weighing a lot of options, I decided that something in the low/middle of the road was probably best for me.  I'm not really interested in starting from scratch (like a conversion).  I don't have the funds nor ceiling height for something like a Haas Mini-mill.

So I had decided on a Tormach.  I consider it sort of a half-way DIY machine. Off the bat, it sounds great.  ~$9k for a 3 axis CNC machine.  But start adding a stand, tooling, vises, a 4th axis, shipping and tax, and now you're at the $20k mark.  I was just wondering what others had done in this decision process.  

This might not be the right frame of mind, but I'm thinking that by the time I get around to buying some of the accessories for the machine that the machine provider won't be in business, or will have moved on to a new generation machine.  So buying it all up-front is a little insurance.  

I'm definitely tired of thinking about all the scenarios.  But does it make sense to spend $20k on a Tormach?  Any thoughts?

Eric


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## Ray C

Take a look at one of these.  I have one and like it a lot.  I've got some videos posted.  Let me know and I'll dig-up the links...

http://www.machinetoolonline.com/PM-45M-CNC.html


Ray


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## JimDawson

I have no opinion on the Tormach, as I know nothing about them.

My personal preference would be to buy a good used machine.  I would not be deterred by an old or dead controller, but the price would be adjusted (way down, like scrap price) accordingly.  You can always upgrade the controls, there are several options for this.

As long as the machine is in good mechanical condition, the electronics are the easy, and reasonably inexpensive part.  Normally the servos are the last thing to fail, and that is where the real money is if they are AC servos, brushed DC servos are pretty reasonable.  I did a complete control retrofit on my machine, including installing a z-axis (it started out life as a 2 axis machine) for about $7500.  I used the existing DC servos on the X and Y axis and a stepper on the Z.  I also have expansion capacity if I need a 4th or 5th axis.  And no, I'm NOT using Mach3.

It sounds like you would consider tackling a CNC conversion on your Series 1, so that tells me you have the skills and confidence to fix up a good used machine that is already a CNC.

I hope I am not throwing too much of a kink in your thinking.


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## Ray C

echesak said:


> I've been planning to get a CNC for a while.  But I finally made a firm decision and am downsizing my astrophotography gear.  I'm planning to use the funds to purchase a CNC machine.  I've gone through a lot of analysis looking at Bridgeport-style, converting my Series 1, and some of the high-end machines (Haas, etc.).  After weighing a lot of options, I decided that something in the low/middle of the road was probably best for me.  I'm not really interested in starting from scratch (like a conversion).  I don't have the funds nor ceiling height for something like a Haas Mini-mill.
> 
> So I had decided on a Tormach.  I consider it sort of a half-way DIY machine. Off the bat, it sounds great.  ~$9k for a 3 axis CNC machine.  But start adding a stand, tooling, vises, a 4th axis, shipping and tax, and now you're at the $20k mark.  I was just wondering what others had done in this decision process.
> 
> This might not be the right frame of mind, but I'm thinking that by the time I get around to buying some of the accessories for the machine that the machine provider won't be in business, or will have moved on to a new generation machine.  So buying it all up-front is a little insurance.
> 
> I'm definitely tired of thinking about all the scenarios.  But does it make sense to spend $20k on a Tormach?  Any thoughts?
> 
> Eric




Eric...  Finally have some time to respond more thoroughly...

I resisted CNC for the longest time but realized my business was suffering w/o it.  For me, a conversion was out of the question; time and space to do the work being the biggest factor.  Also, CNC is much harder on the ways and most manual mills lack hardened ways.  A one-shot lube system is a requirement and I didn't want to spend that much time completely disassembling a machine to drill/tap 2" of cast iron.  I also considered the higher end units but power requirements were too great for the circumstances at the time.  I also looked at the small mills but, I know they simply struggle, get beat-up fast -and can't do the work my shop needs to produce.

At the time, I also knew I would not be doing high production... I just needed to make a few handfuls of parts that are one step up in complexity too difficult to do manually.  I settled on the unit mentioned earlier because I have the manual version of that mill -and it's a known workhorse and fits my work envelope.

If you have prior knowledge of CAD and CAM, that machine is totally plug and play.  I wrote the user guide for it which gives you step-by-step setup instructions and many people have commented their amazement that everything works perfectly.  The problems you'll likely hear are attributable to either or both a lack of prior foundation CAD/CAM and/or basic machining.

I cut parts with that machine and most everything comes out within a thou (0.001") of spec.  It's been rock solid and I had one job that kept it running 10 hours a day for two weeks.  -Not a single hiccup.

The weak points:

I don't like the pendant that comes with it and for 160 bucks, upgraded to this: http://vistacnc.com/b07_pendant_P1/pendant_p1A-S.htm  It makes all the difference in the world and I now find myself using the CNC mill and just doing simple manual parts controlling with the pendant.

Mach 3:  Mach 3 works and does what it's supposed to but, it's poorly documented.  The existing documentation just rambles and is several versions out of date.  After reading the documentation 25 times and watching countless YouTube videos, I learned enough to make it do what it's supposed to.  You will need a decent (and dedicated) host computer to run Mach 3 -and that's to be expected.  I put together an Intel Atom dual-core board with a low-end version of Windows 8 and it's more than adequate (by a factor of 5 or more).  I have discovered that Mach 3 has it's quirks so, erring on the side of caution, I kill and restart the program frequently.  It has never caused a problem -because I proactively manage it's good behavior.

I have been looking for another controller for it (for my purposes and for Matt at Precision Matthews) but, it adds $1500 to the cost -and it seems the general market-place would rather take their chances on Mach 3.

...  The machine is very useful.  In one job alone, it paid for itself and all the software too.  Aside from a leaking oil line coupling (replaced with a 99 cent part from the hardware store) it hasn't had a single problem.  It enables me to make parts I wouldn't dream of making on a manual machine -and I have strong background in manual machine operation.  I honestly hate to admit this and many people here will be disappointed but, "I'm a CNC convert" now.


Ray


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## echesak

Thanks Ray & Jim...

@Jim:  I had thought a lot about converting my mill, or buying another.  I had also read a lot about updating the controller of an older machine.  I've always liked the Centroid unit.  But I'm sure there are many others out there.  I guess my biggest fear would be to get a machine that would need more work than expected, creating a situation where I had neither the cash to get another machine, no a working machine.  It also seems to be a little difficult to locate those older machined that are in decent shape, mechanically.  Something else I need to be careful with is power.  I've converted all my 3 phase machines to VFD, but a larger CNC machine would probably need a total re-wire to work on single phase.  

Do you have any good sites to watch for these machines?


@Ray:  I'd never heard of the folks that you recommended and I've been looking at CNC machines for many years.  If you're affiliated with them, you might mention that they'd benefit from some work on their search engine ranking.

The smaller of their machines looks similar in size to the Tormach.  I like the longer warranty and the hardened ways.  I definitely see the benefit there.  From my initial look at them, it would appear that the machines might be a little less expensive and have some advantages.  I'm looking over this info now and will probably have some questions...  

Yep, i'd definitely be interested in seeing some Vid's

Thanks for the replies, 

Eric


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## Ray C

echesak said:


> Thanks Ray & Jim...
> 
> @Jim:  I had thought a lot about converting my mill, or buying another.  I had also read a lot about updating the controller of an older machine.  I've always liked the Centroid unit.  But I'm sure there are many others out there.  I guess my biggest fear would be to get a machine that would need more work than expected, creating a situation where I had neither the cash to get another machine, no a working machine.  It also seems to be a little difficult to locate those older machined that are in decent shape, mechanically.  Something else I need to be careful with is power.  I've converted all my 3 phase machines to VFD, but a larger CNC machine would probably need a total re-wire to work on single phase.
> 
> Do you have any good sites to watch for these machines?
> 
> 
> @Ray:  I'd never heard of the folks that you recommended and I've been looking at CNC machines for many years.  If you're affiliated with them, you might mention that they'd benefit from some work on their search engine ranking.
> 
> The smaller of their machines looks similar in size to the Tormach.  I like the longer warranty and the hardened ways.  I definitely see the benefit there.  From my initial look at them, it would appear that the machines might be a little less expensive and have some advantages.  I'm looking over this info now and will probably have some questions...
> 
> Yep, i'd definitely be interested in seeing some Vid's
> 
> Thanks for the replies,
> 
> Eric



Eric,

Just so you know, Precision Matthews is a thriving company, AAA business rated for 15 years.  To maintain some degree of control over product stability, he only purchases his machines from the same 4 factories.  Any given model always comes from the same factory.  He has just about saturated their ability to produce and if he orders the same models from other factories, he won't be able to get them with the features/customizations he's chosen.  A large part of their business is selling heavy, precision/industrial equipment in the PA area.  Most of that is not shown on their web site.  Long story short, boosting our presence on the search engines would create an epic headache as, our most common machines are typically spoken-for before they arrive at the loading dock.  In addition, only he and 2 other fellows (Mark and Travis) do all the setup and inspection before shipping them.  [I'm about to head-up there soon to help.  Currently, I do most of the sales and technical (phone/email) support -but, I know my way around machines and machine shops reasonably well].

Just so you know, PM is a basic-foundation company that does not employ "talking heads" to answer the phone and tell people what they want to hear -regardless of the facts.  They are all great people and if there's a problem with the machine or order, it will be addressed.  Generally speaking though, they are so busy, it's hard for them to spend lots of time on the phone -and that's were I come into play...


Ray


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## DMS

I did a conversion on a used BPT clone that I got locally. It was cheaper than a Tormach, but it was a heck of a lot of time and effort to get done. I am pleased with the results, though I am using the quill for the Z-axis, and so travel is limited. I feel that square column mills are better in this respect (Like the RF-45 clone that Ray has, and the Tormach). The nice thing about Tormach is that they have a lot of dealers, and a lot of add-ons for their mills (like an ATC and power drawbar). They will all cost you though. If I were to do it again, I would purchase a Tormach, or an import square column mill to convert (I would also look at the PM version, they did not exist when I was looking originally).


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## Ray C

Here you go...  Please follow this thread.  There are two posts that have links to videos.  This will also give you an idea about what goes on in my custom shop.  -Mostly work for private yachts but, other things too.   I also do welding, critical-part heat treating etc... I don't claim to be a good videographer and the vids show it all, pimples and warts...

In one vid, you'll see a hole came-out undersized but that's because I grabbed an old endmill.  I have multiple sets of duplicate tooling for roughing and finishing.  The G-code was setup to run with a fresh bit and I grabbed a worn one.  The whole was otherwise perfectly dimensioned and it cleaned-up with a reamer in a jiffy...

Also, I cut these parts at a slightly slower than normal feed rate because, it was the first time cutting the part.  After seeing the first part, I tweak feeds/speeds accordingly but in this case, there were only two parts -not worth the time to touch-up the toolpaths.

http://www.hobby-machinist.com/showthread.php?t=23636&page=2




Ray


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## JimDawson

echesak said:


> Thanks Ray & Jim...
> 
> Something else I need to be careful with is power.  I've converted all my 3 phase machines to VFD, but a larger CNC machine would probably need a total re-wire to work on single phase.
> 
> Do you have any good sites to watch for these machines?
> 
> Thanks for the replies,
> 
> Eric



A Rotary Phase Converter would solve the power issue, at least within the limits of the available power to your shop.  A Series 1 size machine probably won't have a spindle motor larger than a 3 HP, well within the range of a single phase input VFD.  Most of the control systems normally are single phase anyway.  My controls just plug into 120V.  The exception to this would be AC servo motors, they may want 3 phase.

I pretty much just keep my eye on Craigslist, fleaBay is another option.  Fortunately I live in an area that that is pretty industrial so there is a pretty steady stream of equipment for sale.  If I really really want a machine, I'll look in a 1000 mile radius, but the price has to be right for me to go that far.  I don't worry about shipping, I can handle 10K lbs with my truck and trailer.

Ray is offering a good option also.


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## L.Donaldson

I ran a small CNC machine shop out of my home garage for 5 years in Colorado prior moving back to Oklahoma recently.  It was a separate two car garage with standard overhead doors and 8' ceiling height.  I went with Fadal mills had two VMC-15's at different times.  It takes about a half hour to unbolt the Z-axis motor and lay it over and it will just clear and overhead door on skates.  I would then pick the spot I wanted to park it.  At that point I would take out sheetrock between two ceiling joists and box in an area with sheetrock which would allow the Z-Axis to extend to full height. I purchased one for $15,000 with a little tooling used it for two years and sold it for $20,000.  Six months later bought one for $5,000 that just needed an encoder replaced. I spent $250 and did the repair myself. I ran that one for two years and sold it for $17,500.  If you take your time and keep searching these bargains can still be had in Fadal machines.  Parts and service are still available.  I currently have access to a Haas TM-1 tool room mill.  Its a great little machine but limited on spindle speed.  I ran them on a small rotary phase converter.


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## bloomingtonmike

Do they offer a servo/encoder option for the Tormach? I retrofitted a Millport knee mill with an Ajax AllinOneDC Centroid retrofit setup - it is nema 42 servo equipped and nmtb30. It is pricey but super easy for me to use. I want an enclosure though - man the open knee machine is messy! I saw the 1100 has an enclosure option now. I think I will just build my own enclosure for the knee.


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## DMS

I just finished an enclosure for my mill. It is not water tight, though I don't use flood coolant, so it's not an issue. Makes a huge difference in how often I need to sweep  Material is 1/8" lexan sheet, and 1010 series 80/20 extrusion.




You can see the pile of chips I accumulated when machining some pieces for the 3d printer I am working on. All that would have been strewn about the garage, or all over me.

Regarding servos/steppers, I don't think it's that big a deal. I mean, definitely on larger machines, they are worth it, but on machines in this range, steppers work fine. I wen't with DC servo's on my mill because the cost difference was not that great. They are a bit of a pain to tune as well. AC servos of course beat everything hands down... except on price.


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## echesak

One of the things I like and hate about the Tormach is the TTS.  I like the idea of being able to switch tools quickly, with the Z-referenced.  But I don't like the issues that many have experienced with Pull-out.  I'm pretty conservative on my cuts on my manual mill, however.  I'm more interested in tool life and finish quality than ultimate speed.  

I like the Centroid conversions. But more time, risk and set-up required.   Has anyone used or converted a Bridgeport Boss?

Anyone ever done/seen a centroid-type retrofit on a VMC, like a fadal, or similar?

Eric


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## cjtoombs

Eric,
A few years ago I came to the same conclusion as you.  I made the decision to purchase a Tormach 1100.  Before I ordered a new one, I got on ebay and CL and took a look.  I wound up purchasing a used one with a base, computer, rotary table, a bunch of TTS tooling and quite a lot of other tooling for about 60% of new price.  If you have some time, and the ability to go pick up a mill, I would definitely look around for a used one.  As far as the pull out on the TTS, you need to take a look at the white paper on that subject on Tormachs website.  Rember, tools can pull out of regular R8 coletts, too.

CJ


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## Don B

echesak said:


> I'm pretty conservative on my cuts on my manual mill, however.  I'm more interested in tool life and finish quality than ultimate speed.
> 
> Eric



I'm not very conservative on the cuts, remnants of my jobbing shop day's, take as much as you can as fast as you can, and I've never had a tool pull out yet, I mostly use 5/16 and 3/8 two flute carbide for hogging out the meat because that's what I happen to have, I've not tried a heavy cut with a 1/2 tool yet.)


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## DMS

I run a mix of TTS holders and regular R8-collets. I have not had any problems with pullout on the TTS. I recommend reading the Tormach app-note on pullout, regardless of whether you go with TTS tools, Tormach, or anything else.


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## Ray C

It's all good discussion to know and be aware of all the possibilities but beware of analysis-paralysis.  When the time came for me, it came down to two things:  A)  Making sure in my mind that CNC was needed/necessary for the work I do.  B)  Deciding on a budget.   You might find (as I did) that deciding on a budget will quickly narrow-down the possibilities -keeping in mind, that in my case, the decision was made to purchase a pre-canned machine.  Of course, it's absolutely necessary to do your homework and learn what's out there -but when the time comes, make sure your eyes don't get bigger than your pocketbook.

Budget is really key here.  For example, Haas has a personal/professional milling station but by the time you add all the "nice to have" stuff, it cost 50 grand.  For that kind of money, you can purchase a Hurco production machine and it will out-gun anything on the block.  There are other good names to look at too like Litz Hitech (which is available through me) who makes the machines for Hurco.  Milltronics, and other names too.  

I personally looked at some very nice package setups (which have been discussed by others in this thread) which have many nice features and a lot of glitz and pizazz... At the end of the day, I personally felt that I was getting wrapped-up and suckered-in just like the teenager down the block with a tricked-out Honda Civic... you know, the kind of car with fancy tires, expensive rims, tricked-out suspension, custom exhaust, nitrous injectors -and big fuzzy dice hanging from the rear-view mirror...  -And a year from now, it will be burning 2 quarts of oil a week and have a market value of ZIP.

... In any event, the decision process should start with what you need and can afford.  If you're doing this for a hobby and are financially well-off, just go out and buy something high end.  If you're like me (starting a business and money is tight) and had some, but not huge, need for CNC work; a basic and reliable machine is probably best.  Also, it's not going to kill you to change bits by hand; I've done it on my manual mill for a long time and I'm still here, alive and breathing to tell you about it.

Having said all this, I'm pricing/negotiating a high-end CNC -not because I want one -but because I'm also negotiating a contract to produce parts with it.  Do I plan to sell the one I have?  -Nope!

Ray

EDIT:  And FWIW, I've used both R8 endmill holders and ER32 collets and no bit has ever pulled out on me.  If they do, it's because you didn't design your feeds, speeds and toolpaths properly.


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## Ray C

Don B said:


> I'm not very conservative on the cuts, remnants of my jobbing shop day's, take as much as you can as fast as you can, and I've never had a tool pull out yet, I mostly use 5/16 and 3/8 two flute carbide for hogging out the meat because that's what I happen to have, I've not tried a heavy cut with a 1/2 tool yet.)



Don,

The combo of using both roughing and finish endmills is very effective and it's saving me a lot of money.   The roughing endmills almost look like spiral taps and they tear off meat really fast and best used with hill climbs (assuming you have ball screws).  I take everything down to within 10 or 15 thou then switch to the finish endmills.  The finish endmills are lasting much longer this way...


Ray


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## 09kevin

I thought the same way Ray did about changing tools manually when I bought my Tormach 770, after running 10 small parts with 8 tool changes per part I decided to order the power drawbar. It is well worth the money in my opinion and I would never go back to manually changing tools. Now I just need to find a place to hang my fuzzy dice :rofl:

Kevin


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## echesak

It seems to me that if you're going to use the TTS, then the power draw bar would be almost a necessity. 

But fuzzy dice... Lol ?  We're working with metal here, so you need something like these. 





(5/8" cube, O-1, Heat treated and polished)


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## Ray C

I view CNC machines as highly expendable -just like automobiles.  Buy them, maintain them and get rid of them when they're worn out.  Also, the way I see it  there are two kinds of CNC machine...  High-end pro stuff -and everything else.  The high end pro stuff comes with ATCs; it's just a question of how large of a magazine you want to get. -And you won't find a high-end machine without position sensors and full closed-loop control...  I thought about this and researched the market long and hard and looked at pre-canned "intermediate" machines -and I didn't see the value proposition when you stand them up to a pro-line machine.

The machine I have is not high-end.  It's capable of a certain class of work and gets the job done with no frills.  Putting an ATC on it would offer some convenience but, unless it also had DRO/position sensors, I would still check and adjust the Z after an auto tool change operation...


Ray


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## 09kevin

Putting an ATC on it would offer some convenience but, unless it also had DRO/position sensors, I would still check and adjust the Z after an auto tool change operation...


Ray[/QUOTE]


That’s the beauty of the TTS, If the ATC is set up correctly you shouldn't have to adjust it after a tool change. There are plenty of Tormach owners with the ATC that don't have repeat-ability problems.


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## echesak

*~Re: CNC decision paralysis - Probably Tormach*

So I've dug into this agian, for the N[SUP]th[/SUP] time.  I located a reasonably priced Haas TM-1 and Mini Mill.  They are both at the top of my budget.  But I could swing the machine purchase.  However, here's my situation.  I live in a low/non-industrial area, so most of these machines are 1500-2000 miles away.  So I'd need to add significant freight costs.  My garage doors are 7' and ceiling is 8'.  So the Z would need to be removed or modified to fit under the door and then reassembled, for many of these machines.  Then the ceiling would need a little drywall work to fit the Z height.  

I moved my Bridgeport inside a large Penske truck with a lift gate.  This mill was 2500 lbs and was at the limit of the lift gate.  These machines (at least the TM1) are significantly more than this.  So that means the rental of a large fork truck (and the associated delivery and pick-up charges) or I'd need to hire riggers to unload and install the machine.

Then...  None of the machines I found came with any tooling.  So I'd need to purchase this.  None of the machines came with CAM software (nor would I expect them to), so I'd need to purchase this also. So now the machines that fit into my budget, now exceed my budget by a factor of about 2x.

I also looked at older CNC machines for retrofit.  I've always liked the Centroid units.  These are available in ready-to-install prewired configurations with or without servos.  This gets the old CNC machines in line with my budget.  But again, Rigging, tooling and CAM software all some into play.  So now these $5k obsolete CNC units, are over budget by about 1.2-1.5x.

I definitely see the niche that the PM, Tormach, IH and other machines fill.  They may not be as capable, rigid, or fast as their big brothers, but one can get into a well tooled machine, with software, delivery and installation for a relatively small comparative budget.  

This may not be all encompassing, as many great deals come along and if one is willing to take more risk, or resides nearer to larger machines, the options open a lot.  For me, my situation and my location here's what I found.

For a budget of 0~$5K, a small retrofit is probably in order - lots of work, lots of tinkering
For a budget of $5k~$20K, a PM, Tormach, IH or similar machine may be the best choice
For a budget above $20k, a full size CNC machine options open (depending on a lot of other factors, of course).

Again, this may not fit everyone's situation, but seems to fit mine.  I had a lot of PM's with many folks here, all of which were exceedingly friendly and helpful.  So thanks to all for assisting my research.


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## Ray C

09kevin said:


> Putting an ATC on it would offer some convenience but, unless it also had DRO/position sensors, I would still check and adjust the Z after an auto tool change operation...
> 
> 
> Ray
> 
> 
> That’s the beauty of the TTS, If the ATC is set up correctly you shouldn't have to adjust it after a tool change. There are plenty of Tormach owners with the ATC that don't have repeat-ability problems.



The real issue which applies to not only Z but, X, Y and A too, is that steppers used without position sensors are best effort.  If the machine skips a step (or two, or three -or ten) the controller only knows how much it told the motors to turn -but doesn't know if they actually did it or not and therefore, actual position cannot be known.

You can put the odds of not skipping steps in your favor by not taking aggressive cuts and doing mostly hill climbs (which place less resistance against the motors).  By not taking aggressive cuts then, you are slowing down the overall process.

On a system with a closed feedback loop, the controller issues instructions based on known positions and once a tool is properly zeroed, there's theoretically no need to re-zero the tool.  Even at that, on many of the high-end machines cranking-out really precision parts, I've seen some re-zero the tool and go through a calibration process before doing the final finish passes.

So far, I've had good results by zeroing the tool then, using roughers to do the grunt work.  Then I switch to a finish bit and re-zero the tool (X, Y and Z) and complete the finish passes.  Also, I don't zero the tool on the part but rather, off a reference point (placed at a known distance from the part) that's coded into the CAM model.


Please don't misinterpret...  I'm not saying anything bad about the machine you own as, I'm referring to all machines that aren't really high-end equipment -and that applies to my machine as well.  I could put all kinds of fancy bells and whistles on my machine -and have fun and make a project out of it.  -But in my opinion, it's tantamount to putting racing slicks on a bicycle. 


Ray


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## countryguy

Well from a newbie perspective you have the wizards of the forum with some great info and advice.  Me personally. I like the pm45 rongFu type platform.   Parts and kits for about anything you wish are probably out there.   Just a thought.    Ray has a few other vids and a rather neat close up interview with his PM 45 mods.    Check that out if you want to get close up to a shiny pm45?  

When I was looking it was deemed a hobby.  Something for my Son and I to do small stuff. So I did not buy the PM45CNC but I go to the site and stare on occasion (lol).    I bought a used setup with a lot of extras for 50% of new.    

I was also keen on IH.   I wanted to show you this link with a comparison chart vs the Tormach http://charteroakautomation.com/our-products/cnc-bed-mill/#competitor_comparison

On either choice I do not think you will not go wrong here.    Wish I were you right now!     Enjoy the process and all the best on your purchase!   
CG


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## echesak

*Re: CNC decision paralysis - Probably Tormach - Decision Made!*

OK, so Decision made...

I came across a pretty good deal on a used Tormach.  It's 5 months old and still under warranty.  It came with 40, or so, ER-style tool holders, as well and set screw and other holders.  It also came with many of the needed measuring devices, a touch probe and a NIB/unused 4th axis.  It also came with 2 of the Glacern CNC vises, which were the exact model I was going to purchase anyway.  One is unused.  I ended-up paying about 65% of new price.  I picked it up on the 3rd and made the slow 450 mile trek, at 55mph. It took 8 men and most of the morning, to get it loaded into my U-haul  trailer.  Oddly, it only took me and my two daughters 2 hours to get it  out and on the shop floor.  It's a little grimy, with coolant residue, but in great shape.  

After getting it in the shop, my decision to get this machine, over a larger unit was confirmed.  Even this small of a machine is fairly overwhelming in my 2-car garage that is already populated with 6 other machine tools.  I wanted to say thanks to everyone for their posts and to others for their lengthy PM discussions.  All the information was very helpful and was great to reference, during this decision process.

I'm embarrassed to take any photos now, as the shop is in total disarray.  But I'll get some posted soon.  Here's a quick shot of the machine & parts in the back of the trailer.  They were very anxious to get me out of their hair, so Everything was loaded as it was.  I'm in the process of cleaning-up everything currently.

[url=http://www.ericchesak.com/Galleries/CNC-/Tormach/i-xMTW53B/A]
	

		
			
		

		
	


[/URL]

Everything was well strapped and padded, and made the trip without incident. 

So now I have to get the software figured out - my weak point.

Thanks again for everyone's assistance, 

Eric


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## Ray C

Yaaaay!  A 10 year long decision comes to an end!

Enjoy...


Ray


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## DMS

Congratulations, that is a ridiculous deal. If those are the TTS er holders, than you are looking at close to $2k just in tooling :greenwithenvy:


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## countryguy

*Re: CNC decision paralysis - Probably Tormach - Decision Made!*

Super deal!  Keep us posted!   Very happy to hear of your find.


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## echesak

Thanks folks.   The ER holders are about 1/3 Tormach, and the other 2/3 are TTS compatible from a Canadian company (Darkon).  They look to be VERY nice (they actually look nicer than the Tormach units).  But I'll have to do some run out tests on the ER20 and ER32 holders.  

I forgot to mention that it also came with an unused 3-Jaw chuck for the 4th Axis, and the Tension-compression tapping set, with extra collets.    There's also a small box of ER20 collets that I've not sorted through yet.  

The seller had a large plexi enclosure on it, but I'll probably make some changes here.  He also misplaced some of sheet metal for the chip tray and the software, so I have to work through the details of getting copies of the software.  But a few headaches are definitely worth the money saved.

Thanks again...

Eric


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## DMS

By software, do you mean CAD/CAM software? If so, then this deal just went from great to ridiculous. If you are just missing the controller software (Mach3), then you can pick up a new copy for not that much (website lists it at $175).


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## 09kevin

Congratulations on the new machine, Eric!  Sounds like you got a great deal.

Darkon sells a low profile ER collet holder also, they are about 1/2 inch shorter than the standard TTS holder but are not compatible with the ATC. I have been thinking of buying some to increase rigidity. I always wondered why Tormach didn’t make shorter holders.

Is the software SprutCAM?  There are plenty of training videos available for SprutCAM 7 and SprutCAM 8 on YouTube. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsLT_5eFKgZzFrfOBxVuUIg 

Kevin


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## echesak

Yes, the unit came with Mach3 and also SprutCAM 8.  However, the cd/dvd disks were not present for either.  Mach3 is already installed on the machine controller (computer) and I have the License/dongle for SprutCAM. I've already spoken with Tormach on getting a copy of SprutCAM 8, for my Laptop.  So, $30 for the replacement Mach3 disk, $0 for the SprutCAM set-up.  A very minimal inconvenience on the Software end.  Tormach has been really helpful in getting the ownership transferred and the software straightened out.  

As for the ER holders, the Darkon ones that I have are a shade longer than the Tormach units.  I did notice the shorter units, but wasn't aware that they weren't compatible with the ATC.  But I'm not really interested in that feature anyway. Here's a comparison photo:





Upon an actual count, it looks like I'm about 50-50, Darkon & Tormach ER-20's, and also a couple Darkon ER-32 units (plus a bunch of other misc holders and drill chucks).  I'm pretty happy with the purchase so far, though I haven't powered it up, since making the trip home.  Should be there in a couple days.  Man, I'm excited...


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## JimDawson

Congratulations Eric.  I would say you got a screaming deal.


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