# Now They've Done it



## Capt45 (Mar 25, 2020)

OK, I've posted before about buying a Mill and have run the gambit between Mini to old iron and have finally settled on a PM of some stripe.  I've been saving for sometime now and have ~ $2000 to apply to a Mill purchase + minimal tooling to get started.  NOW there's a prospect of "free" money coming from the Govt. which potentially increases my funds to over $3000.  My question is this: (bare in mind that I'm looking for my WANTS, not my NEEDS) Is there much to be gained by buying a PM30 over a PM25?


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## JimDawson (Mar 25, 2020)

I don't really have an answer for you on the PM30 vs. the PM25.

But I want to warn other responders to this thread to keep it on the subject of machines.  As much as I would like to comment on the our current national situation, I'm not doing so in the H-M forum.  Please no politics.


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## Capt45 (Mar 25, 2020)

Hope you don't or didn't think ANYTHING I posted smelled of Politics?


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## JimDawson (Mar 25, 2020)

Capt45 said:


> Hope you don't or didn't think ANYTHING I posted smelled of Politics?



Not at all, but I could see this going south in a hurry.


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## Janderso (Mar 25, 2020)

Many forum members have been happy with PM products. They seem to have good customer service.


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## DavidR8 (Mar 25, 2020)

I think the rule of thumb on machines is that bigger/heavier is always better?


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## Aaron_W (Mar 25, 2020)

Size, power, weight and required power (120 or 240v)

PM25 is table 7x27, 19" X, 7" Y, 13" Z, 50-2500rpm (2 speed ranges), weight 330lbs, 1hp 120v

PM30 is table 8x33, 23" X, 8-3/4" Y, 14" Z, 50-3000rpm (2 speed ranges), weight 605lbs, 2hp, 240v, +$700


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## DavidR8 (Mar 25, 2020)

^^^ says it all to me. Almost double the weight, larger table, more travel. Less filling


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## Chipper5783 (Mar 25, 2020)

Hi Capt:                





DavidR8 said:


> I think the rule of thumb on machines is that bigger/heavier is always better?



Should be qualified a bit.  You qualified your question a bit by stating that the mill purchase is a "want", not a need - so buy what you want.

DavidR8's advise is certainly correct - to a point.  If you don't have power, space or machine moving abilities for a larger machine, then obviously bigger and heavier is not better, if you can't use it.

If space, power, weight are no issue for you - then a bigger machine is certainly more capable.  This statement is still valid only up to a point.  I have two manual mills:
- the smaller is an odd ball multi function tool room mill (called a "die sinker").  It is a very nice machine, extremely adaptable, but the movements / work envelop is pretty small (slightly smaller than the PM25 but 7x the weight).
- the larger is a regular knee mill, 10x48 table and has all the standard features / options that these were sold with - weight is ~#2700.
My larger mill is significantly easier to use than the small one, since the movements are a decent size - so the set ups are simpler.  While I see it as substantial piece of metal - it really is NOT a "big" mill - it is about the smallest mill that Cinci made.

Yes, there is much to be gained.  The PM30 will give you significantly more capability than the PM25.  They are both small machines, but if your projects (with vise and spindle tooling) will fit in the work envelop - then you will be fine.  Lots of good work has been done on PM25/30 sized machines.


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## Dabbler (Mar 31, 2020)

@Capt45 I used to have a Grizzly G0731 mill and sold it to go larger.  The short spindle to column distance, and the lack of a moving ram made it impossible to do those 'just a little bigger' projects, and made using a tap wrench very difficult.  The sale and re-buy was quite costly, so from my experience the perfect hobby machine is thePM935 or similar. 

Here's why:  the ram , rotate and nod functions lets you mill at any angle with a reasonable setup, and you can use a larger vise on a smaller machine.  I own 3 vertical mills at present:  a 9X49 BP clone from 1989, a 7X42 BP clone from 1983, and a 2009 PM 935 (supplied by another vendor)...  If you can afford it, have the space and power (needs 20A220V), then that is a sweet spot.  It is unlikely that you will need to go bigger.

The rationale to not go with a tiny mill is that they are flimsy enough to break small cutters if you aren't super careful and make using larger tooling such as the 300 series carbide insert types, well - difficult.  weight adds rigidity, and the 935 has a 'real' milling head.  It also uses R8 tooling, which is common, sturdy, and readily available.  Mills with MT3  spindles leave a lot to be desired, when compared to R8.  Most of the guys in my town that started with the tiny mills use them as drill presses and upgraded to a bigger one.  Hey if you have the money....

What I'm saying is that a larger mill, if you can afford it, is much more forgiving.  An expert can use the smaller milling machines well, but they are much harder to learn on.


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## Capt45 (Mar 31, 2020)

Think the PM30 will be in my future; almost twice the weight and the table travel is a bit bigger.  I just tried to order and got "you can't order the Mill with add on's.  I added a Vise; R8 collets; and the clamping kit. I'll have to call I guess.


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## Capt45 (Apr 15, 2020)

Got my Stimulus check (direct deposit) and now I have this dilemma: PM 25 with DRO or PM30 without DRO. Another question; If I get the PM30 how difficult is it to retrofit a DRO?  AND, how much is a quality DRO?  I see DRO's listed on *bay for up to $200 yet the DRO from PM installed is $600.
I need guidence.


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## DavidR8 (Apr 15, 2020)

I would go with the DRO. 
I know that there will be folks who will say that a DRO is not necessary but it’s been a real help to me. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ttabbal (Apr 15, 2020)

On the mill I think most people would encourage the DRO. 

The PM unit sounds like it is a good quality setup. I have a cheap ebay DRO on the mill and it works great. It does take a willingness to tinker and drill the casting of the machine to install it though. So there is something to be said for factory installation. There are a ton of videos and writeups about installing them and such. I found it reasonably straightforward for the most part.


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## Aaron_W (Apr 15, 2020)

It will be a lot easier to add a DRO to the PM30 later, than to make the PM25 bigger.


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## srfallsallot (May 18, 2020)

Same dilemma. I ended up with the PM932. Solid machine. Very happy.


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## bill stupak (May 18, 2020)

Another thing to keep in mind is tooling. So save some of that cash for that. I know I have many times more in tooling than the cost of the machines.


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## Dabbler (May 18, 2020)

bill stupak said:


> I know I have many times more in tooling than the cost of the machines.



Me too.  About 2K$ for my small lathe, and about 3K$ for my mill.  Over 30 odd years.  Not consumables, like inserts - just tool holders, tool posts tailstock chucks, lathe chucks, rotary tables, the list goes on....


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## Capt45 (May 19, 2020)

Tooling is killing me; I'm having a problem not only in expensing the tooling, but also WHICH tooling to buy first.


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## MrWhoopee (May 19, 2020)

Capt45 said:


> Tooling is killing me; I'm having a problem not only in expensing the tooling, but also WHICH tooling to buy first.


Collets (3/8, 1/2, 5/8), vise and drill chuck.


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## Janderso (May 19, 2020)

DavidR8 said:


> I would go with the DRO.
> I know that there will be folks who will say that a DRO is not necessary but it’s been a real help to me.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Kind of like having power windows in a car, once you try it, you will never go back to cranking windows 
DRO's are amazing.


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## Capt45 (May 19, 2020)

OK; DRO was purchased with the Mill as well as a Vise.  Collets should be here this week.  And I have a Jacobs chuck to use but will invest in a key less drill chuck in the near future.  Now I'm concentrating on what end mills and various cutters.


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## DavidR8 (May 19, 2020)

Here's a thread here with some good advice.








						End mills
					

I need some center cutting end mills now that my machine is getting in shape finally.    Looked around at LittleMachineShop.com and there are too many types; TICN, TCN, cobalt, insert, 2 flute, 4 flute....  I have a set of cheap-o 2 flute end mills that are the same diameter as the cutting...




					www.hobby-machinist.com


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## Capt45 (May 23, 2020)

OK; an update on my PM25 (still setting in the shipping crate).  I completed the stand fashioned from scrap 2x3x1/4 angle and a 24 x 18 x 1/4 top.  Weights close to 75# and painted with Rustoleum Oasis Blue (final coat). If the neighbor can help this weekend, I plan on having the Mill atop the stand, leveled and Tram'd.


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## Tim9 (May 23, 2020)

I’d personally go with the dovetail column Asian mill preferably. The round mills certainly have good abilities but most owners complain about the round columns. I think that’s the RF35 copies.


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## Capt45 (May 23, 2020)

The PM25 IS A DOVETAIL MILL.  I was at one point looking at the round column mills, but the additional govt funds help me make my decision.


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## Tim9 (May 23, 2020)

Okay...I really don’t keep up with various newer model number. But...you’re going to be much happier with a mill weighing at least 600-700 lbs which is also dovetail styled.
The smaller 300 lb dovetail mill is still a nice machine and can do precision work...but with machine tools.....mass is your friend. A 2000 # machine almost always outperforms a 200 # machine. Both can do precision work....but the 2000 pounder does it much, much faster while not sacrificing precision.


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## Capt45 (May 23, 2020)

I agree, but the economies at play today dictated my frugal purchase.


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## Cheeseking (May 24, 2020)

Aaron_W said:


> It will be a lot easier to add a DRO to the PM30 later, than to make the PM25 bigger.



This. ^^

Save your coins and get the DRO when you are able to swing it. Plus installing one is always a good project. Lots of good videos on dropros.


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## Capt45 (May 24, 2020)

I already have the PM25 setting in my shop.


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## Tim9 (May 24, 2020)

It’s all good Capt.
I didn’t realize you already made your purchase. You know your situation better than I know your situation and needs. In any case, we all make concessions based on finances. Especially for a hobby. That said, I saw a question and I was only giving the best Honest answer I could give.

Even if someone purchases a HF used round column, at least they now have their foot in the door. They can then learn how to machine while both educating themselves plus they then learn what needs they really have. Keeping ones eyes open....Craigslist and such....at some point a used machine usually shows up at a great price. When time is on your side....it makes things easier.
Ask anyone and they’ll tell you that the Atlas 6” lathe is woefully under ridged. And I’ll tell you, they are correct. But that was my first lathe. And I loved it. Still have it. Could sell it in a flash if I wanted to but I’m emotionally attached to the little bugger. It got my foot in the door.
But then again....if it serves your needs you are golden. If you want more....you’re still machining while you search for next mill. You can always trade up. Especially since you are buying a quality machine. 
have a great day.


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## Tim9 (May 24, 2020)

By the way. Congratulations !


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## Capt45 (May 24, 2020)

Thanks Tim; the PM25 will go nicely with my PM 1022 Lathe.  I'm just a hobbyist and wanna bee firearms tinkerer.  I also reload and some of my first projects will be to modify some of my bullet molds, removing the GC ridge AND creating precise bullet sizing dies.  Also into building game (Duck) call Jigs.  I hope to get the Mill mounted, cleaned and trammed this coming week.


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## Dhal22 (May 24, 2020)

I'm close to making a PM25 purchase.....  Good thread ongoing here.


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## Cheeseking (May 24, 2020)

Ya sorry I missed the part you already went the 25 Route.


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## Capt45 (May 26, 2020)

No prob.


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