# "Made in U.S.A." ? Germany? UK? Korea?



## graham-xrf (Apr 30, 2022)

Proudly forged onto every good tool, seen on every brass riveted nameplate. You saw it, and felt quite fine about the item. OK then - I also mean "Made in England", and Germany, and France and even India and Korea and Taiwan and China.

What burns a bit is when one buys the item, with a USA or other brand name that stretches back to before when "_Mechanix Illustrated_" and "_Popular Mechanics_" ever saw printing ink, and come to know that it was actually made in a re-located factory facility in China. I know they call it "globalization", but I begin to think that is just a disingenuous newspeak to spin a better impression for a murky economic sell-out. It goes into second stage when you try for a Mitutoyo from Japan, and find it was made in Brazil.

I do get it that all humans everywhere, regardless the place they are in,  are smart enough to make good stuff. That would be OK, if one had a way of telling it was good. They make bad stuff too. The worst is when you pay the price deserving a quality product, using a trusted brand reputation as a guide, and discover that it's no longer so.
I never thought that having bought from Austria, and Poland, the only main stuff in my shop not from Asia is called "South Bend" from the late 1940's. To bitter the scene further, let us mention that the modern South Bend kit comes from Grizzly, with distribution centres in Taiwan and China.

I don't say Grizzly, or PM, etc. are bad. It's just that my Cormak mill shares DNA with Grizzly, and about five other brands, and I will have to work on it some to make it like I would have liked it to be when I opened the crate! There is clearly a quality gap between PM, and most of the others, with PM kit looking like the design came from the same stable, but done somewhat better.


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## Aukai (Apr 30, 2022)

Yep not happy, but I think some things would be out of our price range though.


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## jwmay (Apr 30, 2022)

graham-xrf said:


> I know they call it "globalization", but I begin to think that is just a disingenuous newspeak to spin a better impression for a murky economic sell-out.


I don't know what you're talking about really. All I can say is that without imported tools, I wouldn't have much. I don't think it's newspeak, or any sort of sneaky thing. It is what it is. If anything, its a way for rich countries to leverage the poverty of poor countries, so that us rich countries get stuff, and the poor countries get money. Seems a decent trade. There's some research to indicate it raises everyone's quality of life. Not just the rich countries. So there's that fwiw. Now as for getting something that isn't as nice as I thought it would be. This one is super easy. Return it. Just about nobody won't let you send it back if you don't like it. Send it back. Be happy. I would encourage you to concentrate on making decisions that make you happy.  There's plenty to be thankful for.


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## ps15toolroom (Apr 30, 2022)

The first time I ever saw a Mitutoyo tool from brazil I was disappointed as well. Import tools will always be a gamble simply because a lot of these companies can get away with lying or having a few 100 inferior castings every 1000 parts. Most buyers in the import market won't know the difference. There are a million great deals out there on the used market with the caveat being that you must either know how to recondition tools or make shopping for home shop tools a second part time job.
I personally prefer to hunt for old stuff I can recondition or use right away. I love the thought of keeping stuff working as long as possible. At my day job we're still running 1950-60's bridgeports with prototrak nearly everyday (unless we're all on the lathes).


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## RJSakowski (Apr 30, 2022)

"For a product to be called Made in USA, or claimed to be of domestic origin without qualifications or limits on the claim, *the product must be "all or virtually all" made in the U.S.* The term "United States," as referred to in the Enforcement Policy Statement, includes the 50 states, the District of Columbia, and the U.S. territories and possessions."








						Complying with the Made in USA Standard
					

Introduction Basic Information About Made In USA Claims The Standard For Unqualified Made In USA Claims Qualified Claims Comparative Claims The FTC and The Customs Service Other Statutes What To Do About Violations Introduction The Federal Trade Commission (FTC) is charged with preventing




					www.ftc.gov


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## Bi11Hudson (May 1, 2022)

When I am looking for a 'cheap' tool, of whatever nature, I don't concern myself with where it was made. China is the current 'fall guy' but over the years there have been many others. Price is the only parameter I look at. On the other hand, if I am looking for a keeper, something well made and *probable* U.S. origin, I usually start my search on eBay for a used version. There are many tool names that went under when the move was made to offshore manufacturing. Those names I trust without following up on where they were made. I can't recall many of those names 'off the top of my head' but know them when I see them. There are some suppliers that have 'old stock' on occasion that includes tools long since gone. In an (ex)industrial city, I know a few places still in business. If I want something bad enough to pay retail, I know where to (start) looking. 


RJSakowski said:


> "For a product to be called Made in USA, or claimed to be of domestic origin without qualifications or limits on the claim, *the product must be "all or virtually all" made in the U.S.* The term "United States," as referred to in the Enforcement Policy Statement, includes the 50 states, the District of Columbia, and the U.S. territories and possessions."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The FTC requires such a background check before using 'Made in U.S.A.' on their product. However, *foreign manufacturers are not bound by these rules*. Mitutoyo is a good example. Although they claim 'Made in Japan', some come from Brazil. So stated above. Japan may have different definitions for the 'Made in. . . '. Or not any at all. *They don't fall under the FTC rules*. To the FTC, import is import, it doesn't matter where it came from, it is not US made.

When I am looking for a model, most of the time I look for older models that are US made. With a few exceptions. . . But it involves metal castings, I am 'allergic' to plastic everything these days. I want metal versions.

.


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## matthewsx (May 1, 2022)

Our motorcycles are “Crafted in California” even though we design and build them in Scotts Valley, CA.


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## graham-xrf (May 1, 2022)

matthewsx said:


> Our motorcycles are “Crafted in California” even though we design and build them in Scotts Valley, CA.


Might that be because the actual metal was turned elsewhere?


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## Aaron_W (May 1, 2022)

graham-xrf said:


> Might that be because the actual metal was turned elsewhere?


 
I suspect it is because electrical and electronic devices origin gets into grey areas very quickly. Very hard to source electrical components, batteries etc that are reliably within the FTC requirements. You see a lot of Made in USA from globally sourced parts on electronic equipment, a step above assembled in the USA, which is a step above Designed in the USA which in turn is generally preferred to paid for by a fat cat in the USA trying to maximize profits.


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## Bone Head (May 1, 2022)

FTC and the like aside, I like to know parts, tools and other goods I buy were made in the United States.  It's not always possible.  That is due part in fact to manufacturers buying parts and assemblies made elsewhere.  Some feel that manufacturing replacement/repair parts are not worth their while.   So, in my case I'm making do with crank assembly pieces from Tiawan for my old Harley.  No American oem or American aftermarket available.
I just take pride in "Made in U.S.A."


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## jwmay (May 1, 2022)

ps15toolroom said:


> Most buyers in the import market won't know the difference.


Most buyers period won't know the difference. I've often entertained myself with reading the accounts of newbies having never been involved in machining, much less have a working knowledge of what goes into a cast part go on long winded essays of all the things they found wrong with their brand new import machine. (Sand in places that don't matter seems very important to them)

 The number of people in the world who were even alive in Americas machine tool hey day has got to be fairly whittled down by now. Of that finite group, could we really depend on them remembering what a brand new SB 13 looked like as it was pulled from its shipping crate?  Did everything work exactly as it should?

I remember an article I read about the beginnings of Clausing machine tools.  The guy was building and selling his lathes, right? Hadn't yet made any sort of numbers yet, but he was working towards it. He'd left a note or a journal entry saying something to the effect that he was thinking he'd gotten this lathe he had built working pretty much, or pretty well or something like that. Not perfect. Not "perfect in every imaginable way".... just pretty well. Now we don't know if he was being humble. But it indicates a different story of American Manufacturing than this idyllic notion that everything old American was a profoundly high quality machine.  

I'm often amazed by the ingenuity of that time. The things they did with pencil and paper, their ability to judge steel temps by eye, the grit and craftsmanship of bonafide pattern makers. But almost all of that has been replaced by a computer.  The machines do the thinking, and they are a far sight better at it as regards repeatability.  There's no old files(scrap iron)  or what have you being dumped into the pour. I've read accounts of such in anvil making in the US.  

We live in the greatest technological era of humankinds history. And it'll have improved again before I post this message. Yes, plenty of new stuff from all over the world isn't as nice as we imagine it should be. Yes, some of it is downright junk. But make no mistake, our processes, our ability, and our potential is beyond the wildest dreams of anyone at Starrett circa 1940.  

There was a time when buying something imported carried a little mystique with it. You must have deep pockets if you can afford doing that. Now we belly ache about "supply chain" issues as if the darn world is falling apart. I've got a presumably very nice machine being trucked right to my door, at no extra charge, all the way from China. Will it have some foibles? Maybe. But so does my made in 1942 Atlas lathe. Who cares? Well I will be grumbly until I get it sorted out. But if you gave me ten years I still couldn't build the thing any better than what they did, for their price.  

As regards where the steel came from, I just can't say that it matters a wit. Steel is steel, separated in quality by price and utility.  A Chinese or Brazilian I beam will stand no less bending force before yielding. The manufacturer specifies that, and has quality checks in line with current standards.  
Having worked in manufacturing most of my adult life in the USA, I have a hard time identifying with the Made in USA logo having anything to do with us on the factory floor.  Sure we should all take pride in our work. But generally, we are all just trying to meet the standards that were set out for us.  I can't speak for everyone, but I don't see us all coming to work draped in the American flag, and fastidiously going over every aspect of quality on every part, or assembly. It's impossible. So there are hourly or semi hourly quality checks. There's nobody saying "well this is America, so I'll do extra checks".  How many bad parts could have made it out the door in a half hour? Depends. Are you making 100k parts per shift?  There's plenty of opportunity there. Are we going to throw all those suspect parts away? Are we gonna put a hold tag on it? Send it back through a crew of people who will physically reverify all 12k suspect parts? Tell the distributor? The answer is it depends.

 There's nothing special about an origin label.  If you want something that is almost perfect, buy from a person, not a company. I guarantee the guys selling things they made are going to be offering the absolute best representation of what they can do, every single time.     It'll also smack you in the pocketbook like a chat rock at 60 mph. 

 Mass manufacturing will never make 100% perfect stuff. But they all try to. The scale is just too great for that.  Your screwdrivers would cost ten times what they do to make that happen. And it wouldn't matter where they were made, or where the steel came from. And as I mentioned before, it already doesn't matter where the steel came from. 

As a final thought: How many of us are making tooling and fixtures of aluminum nowadays that would have unquestionably been made of cast iron and steel 60 years ago? That aluminum does just fine. Heck, there are some near precision tools made of wood!


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## finsruskw (May 1, 2022)

Just bought a new key switch to replace an original from a Cub Cadet from the 70's and it was made in India and a POS to boot.
The original keys will not interchange and it only came with one key that comes out when the unit is in the run position. Would probably work with a screw driver!!


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## RJSakowski (May 1, 2022)

Quality control is the key to quality products.  A final inspection will not catch hidden defects.  This has to be done via in-process inspection.  For 23 years, I made and sold equestrian timers.  I had 29 in-process quality inspections during the manufacturing process.  In 23 years, I never had a product returned due to defect.

Quality control is an expensive component in manufacturing with only subtle benefits.  As a manufacturing engineering manager in a medical device company, I was also responsible for managing the quality control group.  This is unusual as managing manufacturing engineering and qyality control is considered a conflict of interest.

At one point, the company decided to hire a trained quality assurance engineer to manage the quality control group.  Hr gave a lecture to the company where he was talking about the cost of quality control.  He insisted that the proper amount of quality was the point at which customers began to complain.  My position was that we should never knowingly allow an inferior product to go out the door.  I left the company a year later.


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## mmcmdl (May 1, 2022)

finsruskw said:


> Just bought a new key switch to replace an original from a Cub Cadet from the 70's and it was made in India and a POS to boot.
> The original keys will not interchange and it only came with one key that comes out when the unit is in the run position. Would probably work with a screw driver!!


Say it isn't so .  That Cub deserves better fin !


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## mmcmdl (May 1, 2022)

Back thru the eighties we made many components for the nuclear subs . Every piece of metal , every nut , bolt , weld etc. was checked and rechecked . If the certifications were not complete when the job was finished , the parts were rejected until they were . Even the paint had to be certified . Although the government would accept the parts when done and all CoCs were in order , only one person could ever give the go-ahead for using on the sub ..........................that was the captain of the ship . I'm sure it's the same these days . 

Same for Space Flight jobs . If the ducks didn't line up , it didn't go into space . NASA had inspectors coming into our shop daily . Every piece of metal , all tools in the inspection dept had to be certified by them , and them alone . I think one of my co-workers ended up with NASA in quality control .


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## finsruskw (May 1, 2022)

Yeah, and it's one I want to sell.
Sure won't sell w/a switch that won't hole the dam key!!
Waiting on another part for it as well that was supposedly shipped from Cleveland on the 21st!!
Go figure, last expected delivery is now May 3rd.
USPS sucks!
Kinda like the belt I got last month after the 3000 mile detour it took to get from Indiana to Iowa!


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## jwmay (May 1, 2022)

RJSakowski said:


> In 23 years, I never had a product returned due to defect.


And this should be a point of pride. But we also know that MOST people who have a complaint don't report it to the company. They tell their friends about it. They complain online. But they don't contact the manufacturer and explain why this thing isn't what it should be. They just mark it down as a POS from who knows where, and go buy another from somewhere else.


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## matthewsx (May 1, 2022)

graham-xrf said:


> Might that be because the actual metal was turned elsewhere?


As stated above by RJ it's due to the amount of material sourced from overseas. I can't imagine what it would cost to produce the bikes if everything was built in the US, or even if you could source all the parts domestically. Mega conglomerates can do it because they own the entire process and can force their suppliers to locate a plant in the US if needed. But, every product is built to a price point and global economics are a reality for every company.

I actually do have experience with a product that is 100% USA built but haven't produced it in quite a while. The guy I bought my racing kart/engine building business from set out to to that in the early 2000's and I am now the owner of Heartbeat Racing's Time Machine kart. It wad darn fast too, he even beat one of my drivers with it at the local track. Mike was a multiple Duffy (IKF) winner and wanted to build a kart in the USA that would compete with the Italian manufacturers. We sold a few but the economics of it didn't work even if I went to Italian components. I still have the jigs some hard parts, and a couple of complete chassis if anyone is interested....

John


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## matthewsx (May 1, 2022)

Anyone wanna buy a USA racing kart company, I'll make you a good deal....


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## graham-xrf (May 2, 2022)

Bone Head said:


> FTC and the like aside, I like to know parts, tools and other goods I buy were made in the United States.  It's not always possible.  That is due part in fact to manufacturers buying parts and assemblies made elsewhere.  Some feel that manufacturing replacement/repair parts are not worth their while.   So, in my case I'm making do with crank assembly pieces from Tiawan for my old Harley.  No American oem or American aftermarket available.
> I just take pride in "Made in U.S.A."


Non USA residents (like me) have long been aware of the sentiment that goes along with being a Harley owner. Interesting also is that there is a 2021 revival model of one that I first became aware of when out in Africa in 1974. Harley makers must believe the market still loves them! The Harley kit must then have appeal to more than two generations, unless it be held up by a fan base of ageing "Made in USA" adherents. Maybe the whole deal somewhat rubbed off on their kids 




If any Harley aficionados in the know are about to tell me how much of this machine is actually made in Asia, then please let me down gently!


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## graham-xrf (May 2, 2022)

jwmay said:


> The number of people in the world who were even alive in Americas machine tool hey day has got to be fairly whittled down by now. Of that finite group, could we really depend on them remembering what a brand new SB 13 looked like as it was pulled from its shipping crate?  Did everything work exactly as it should?


South Bend manufacturing era that my machine(s) date from were to a govenrment imposed specification for wartime need. There were no frills. The essential surfaces were precision, and the strength more than enough, but there was not too much concern for stuff like casting flashing and other customer appeal "look good" stuff. That I do not apply the same standards to machines I like, depending on origin, despite allowing for the different needs of the time, can only mean I have a sentimental bias. "The good ole' days", and this despite that my only acquaintance with "Made in USA" was stuff I would have bought as an import!


jwmay said:


> I remember an article I read about the beginnings of Clausing machine tools.  The guy was building and selling his lathes, right? Hadn't yet made any sort of numbers yet, but he was working towards it. He'd left a note or a journal entry saying something to the effect that he was thinking he'd gotten this lathe he had built working pretty much, or pretty well or something like that. Not perfect. Not "perfect in every imaginable way".... just pretty well. Now we don't know if he was being humble. But it indicates a different story of American Manufacturing than this idyllic notion that everything old American was a profoundly high quality machine.


At some stage in the 1960's, Clausing and Colchester came together, perhaps because they had the similar work ethic and belief in the product. There is a picture of Paul Clausing from 1928, using his South Bend. It seems he thought he could make a better lathe than South Bend [1].
Should I find an affordable, nice condition Clausing - or Colchester, I would be strongly tempted to "trade up" 






jwmay said:


> I'm often amazed by the ingenuity of that time. The things they did with pencil and paper, their ability to judge steel temps by eye, the grit and craftsmanship of bonafide pattern makers. But almost all of that has been replaced by a computer.


Agreed! I don't know how true it is portrayed in the movie about the Manhattan Project, But apparently Enrico Fermi used a slide rule in real time to calculate the progress of the reaction. Certainly there was a time when "computers" meant poorly paid women staff churning mechanical calculators, or punching cards, getting answers that made Apollo 11 happen. Now we face AI super-computing using GPUs.


jwmay said:


> Mass manufacturing will never make 100% perfect stuff. But they all try to. The scale is just too great for that.  Your screwdrivers would cost ten times what they do to make that happen. And it wouldn't matter where they were made, or where the steel came from. And as I mentioned before, it already doesn't matter where the steel came from.


When the scale is a bit smaller, they get damn close!  We don't need to mechanically tell the time anymore, but the latest technology carving pure silicon, quartz, or sapphire into parts for high end wristwatches, looks like they were taken from the universe atom by atom! Definitely not mass-manufacture, some of the best of these tiny machines are here..
--> 




[1] http://www.lathes.co.uk/clausing/page11.html


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## Bone Head (May 2, 2022)

graham-xrf said:


> View attachment 405735
> 
> 
> If any Harley aficionados in the know are about to tell me how much of this machine is actually made in Asia, then please let me down gently!



I won't tell...actually not sure.  I don't care for new vehicles.  But you can compare it somewhat to a mis-fifties' example.  Disclaimer:  A lot of liberty taken with this, and aftermarket parts are definitely used,


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## graham-xrf (May 2, 2022)

RJSakowski said:


> Quality control is the key to quality products.  A final inspection will not catch hidden defects.  This has to be done via in-process inspection.  For 23 years, I made and sold equestrian timers.  I had 29 in-process quality inspections during the manufacturing process.  In 23 years, I never had a product returned due to defect.
> 
> Quality control is an expensive component in manufacturing with only subtle benefits.  As a manufacturing engineering manager in a medical device company, I was also responsible for managing the quality control group.  This is unusual as managing manufacturing engineering and qyality control is considered a conflict of interest.
> 
> At one point, the company decided to hire a trained quality assurance engineer to manage the quality control group.  Hr gave a lecture to the company where he was talking about the cost of quality control.  He insisted that the proper amount of quality was the point at which customers began to complain.  My position was that we should never knowingly allow an inferior product to go out the door.  I left the company a year later.


He was absolutely wrong! The point at which a company becomes aware customers are complaining is already well beyond the point the reputation is risking ruin. Many customers do not want to to throw good money after bad, nor waste effort in debating the quality with the supplier. The most they want is a refund, and will never touch the brand again. Many will not even complain, they just never go there again.


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## RJSakowski (May 2, 2022)

graham-xrf said:


> He was absolutely wrong! The point at which a company becomes aware customers are complaining is already well beyond the point the reputation is risking ruin. Many customers do not want to to throw good money after bad, nor waste effort in debating the quality with the supplier. The most they want is a refund, and will never touch the brand again. Many will not even complain, they just never go there again.


Points that I made at the time but they fell on deaf ears. We were an ISO9001 certified company at that point and one of the principles of ISO9000 is continuous quality improvement of which monitoring customer feedback and applying corrective and preventative actions to eliminate the issues is a component.

Prior the the QA manager's arrival, I had managed the internal audits for the company and had the authority to write up non-compliance's which had to be properly addressed by involved parties and were subject to review by external auditors in their biannual recertification audit. Failure to properly address non-compliance's  could result in loss of certification and the ability to sell products in the EU so there were some teeth in the action.


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## RJSakowski (May 2, 2022)

Manufacturers and retailers typically address the requirement for ISO900o continuous quality improvement by asking customers to fill out customer satisfaction surveys which do little to address real problems.  However, if you have an issue with a product and file an official complaint, they are obligated to log that complaint and to follow through with the corrective/preventative action process.  Not saying that they actually will log the complaint but it's a start.  Taking it one step further, identifying who the notified body that conducts their recertification audit is and filing a complaint with them may be a path forward. The notified body identity can be found on the vendor's ISO9000 certificate, usually available on the vendor's website. For example here is the one for Black and Decker. https://www.certipedia.com/quality_marks/9105072488?qm_locale=en&locale=en


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## Aaron_W (May 2, 2022)

I will point out that a rather critical factor often ignored in the "made in" threads is price point. Many products are made in China, India, Vietnam etc specifically to do it as cheaply as possible, but these countries are not entirely limited to making cheap junk.

Looking at Grizzly since they cover a broad spectrum from fairly cheap to not very cheap.

A Grizzly G0709 14x40" (made in China) lathe costs $7500
they also sell a South Bend (Grizzly owned brand) SB1039F 14x40" (made in China) lathe for $25,500. This does include a DRO (Fagor, MSC sells this brand of 2 axis DRO for $1500), so lets call it $24,000.

Precision Matthews sells several Chinese 14x40 lathes in the same $7000-8000 range, as well as the Taiwan made PM1440GT for $11,000.

I think it is safe to assume that Chinese South Bend is probably much nicer than the $7000-8000 Chinese lathes, and still nicer than the Taiwan built 1440GT. I bet it even looks pretty good compared to a 70 year old USA South Bend. If somebody is spending $25,000 on a 14" lathe they probably expect it to work and are not going to tolerate futzing around cleaning mystery oil and grit, doing a final finish on parts or immediately replacing cheap parts with better quality ones as they will with an $800 7x12.

As hobbyists, and particularly fans of "old iron", it is rarely considered that the preferred old iron are often industrial grade machines well beyond most hobbyists budgets. Comparing them to new hobby / light industrial grade machines is valid as you can get a lot of machine for your money buying old iron, but to compare build quality is not really fair because you are comparing two completely different classes of machine.

I have a 1932 Rivett 608 8.5x21" lathe I am putting into use, in 1941 these lathes cost $1250 without the bench or motor which cost extra. These lathes were entirely hand scraped and hand fitted. In 2022 dollars $1250 is $24,500.

Little Machine Shop sells their Model 7500 8.5x20 lathe for $2800.

All in I will have spent far less than $2800 on the Rivett, so it is a fair example of what you can get buying old iron vs buying new.


Using it as a comparison of build quality between old USA made and Chinese though is ridiculous. The LMS lathe is made to be a small lathe for a hobbyist with a decent budget but lacking the space or need for a larger lathe.
The Rivett is a piece of mechanical artwork made for work far well beyond my ability. They were not only beyond the budget of most hobbyists, they were beyond the budgets of all but the deepest pockets, with less than 2000 made over 40 years of production.

A South Bend Model 9B (change gears, power cross feed) is a far more fair comparison, a 3-1/2 foot model (22" between centers) cost $277 in 1947, or $3600 in 2022. Now with this comparison you can probably have a good debate with on which is better. With the SB you can probably get it for less than half the price of the new 7500, the 7500 has a bigger spindle bore and variable speed. Build quality will probably favor a post war SB, but LMS has a good reputation for QC and 50-70 years of age / use will take a toll.


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## MikeInOr (May 2, 2022)

My father worked for Proto tools back in the 70's when they were owned by Ingersoll Rand.  Not too long after he became the GM of the Milwaukee OR plant Proto was bought out by Stanley.  Under Stanley everything was slowly moved to Asia (Taiwan and China).  He became the Manager of product engineering for Stanley in which a good portion of his job was to build new factories in Taiwan and engineer the production lines to ensure decent quality control.  About when he retired they started closing the Stanley plants in Taiwan and China and sent their production out to bid.  This is when the quality really took a hit.  Most all of his engineers that knew a good tool from a bad tool, good steel from bad steel, good heat treating from bad heat treating etc. also left Stanley at that time.

I don't believe "Made in Taiwan" or "Made in China" is necessarily a bad thing when it comes to quality.  It is the "Made by Lowest Bidder" where quality really goes out the window.  During and shortly after the "Made by Lowest Bidder" transition took place Stanley hand tools still had a good reputation and MUCH lower production costs so the stock prices shot up, through the roof.  It was also during this time period that board of directors tried to move the Stanley headquarters from Connecticut to Bermuda to dodge US taxes and further pad the stock prices.  At the height of the stock prices the CEO of Stanley, John M. Trani, took all of his stock options, sold out and retired with many tens of millions of $$$.  My father also did VERY well on his Stanley stock but he always despised Trani for selling out and ruining the quality that the company used to stand for.


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## jwmay (May 2, 2022)

Off topic: But regarding Stanley specifically, I was recently employed by a company using Stanley Rivet guns. The rep who gave us our training told a story of how Stanley was a competitor of whomever he works for now. His employer had bought them at some point, and basically took whatever features they deemed important from the Stanley gun and put it in their new gun. I have no first hand knowledge btw. But even the rep said that his biggest trouble training people is with people who used the Stanley guns. Evidently those guns didn't care what sort of lubricant you used. While the new guns were very particular about what lubricant was used, and could be rendered useless with improper lubricant. It was super interesting to me. He said some people didn't even want the new guns. But I never knew Stanley was even making anything industrial grade. So that really piqued my interest.
That " made by lowest bidder " stuff has always haunted me. Every time I'm shopping for something, I'm having that same thought. Is this version the "cheapest built" or the "mid grade"? We really don't know! Ever! That's private between the business selling the tool and the business making the tool. Aargh!
I have had real good luck with Grizzly so far. So if there's something new and expensive I'm gonna buy, I buy it from them.


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