# I really want a beginner scraping project!!!



## spaceman_spiff (Nov 13, 2014)

Please advise on what would be a good beginner scraping project.

Heres what I currently have at my disposal that I think is especially relevant:

6" square granite surface plate of unknown accuracy
0.0001" Mitutoyo dial test indicator
Half empty tube of prussian blue from Autozone
the "Reconditioning of Machinery" pdf
An Atlas 10F with a few thousandths of wear on its ways

And the usual assortment of machine shop stuff including a CNC mill

Heres some scraping project ideas I have:

-Scrape the lathe ways (probably the last project..not the first)
-Buy a rough cast iron straight edge on flee-bay and scrape it so it can be used to scrape the lathe
-Buy some cheap-o 1-2-3 blocks and scrape them flatter
-Buy some other kind of cheap-o tool and turn it into a high quality tool via scraping

What should I try first? Is there anything I might have in a typical machine shop that I could spot on the granite surface plate and see what kind of surface it currently has to learn something interesting?


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## SG51Buss (Nov 14, 2014)

How about the top surface of your compound's t-slot?  The surface that your toolpost sets on.  After a million miles of use, mine wasn't flat.  Yours may not be flat either...


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## chuckorlando (Nov 14, 2014)

I would learn to scrap on a tool that would aid in scraping. Like a prism.


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## astjp2 (Nov 15, 2014)

spaceman_spiff said:


> Please advise on what would be a good beginner scraping project.
> 
> Heres what I currently have at my disposal that I think is especially relevant:
> 
> ...



Get a 24" camelback straight edge, its one of the tools you need to check everything else once you get it scraped in.  I have several pieces of cast iron block that I bought to make into straight edges...I have a large enough granite surface plate to do this with though.  Will you hand scrape?  I want a biax so bad but funds wont allow it yet....Tim


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## Ulma Doctor (Nov 16, 2014)

spaceman_spiff said:


> Heres some scraping project ideas I have:
> 
> -Scrape the lathe ways (probably the last project..not the first)
> -Buy a rough cast iron straight edge on flee-bay and scrape it so it can be used to scrape the lathe
> ...



IMHO, i'd do the 1-2-3 blocks first.
they are cheap, they are readily available and easy to work with.
you'll get an almost instant sense of accomplishment that will give you confidence to try something larger and so on.

if you want a simple but satisfying project.
 make your own hand scraper from an 18" piece of 1"x1/4"thick CRS flat bar, a handle, and a simply brazed or silver soldered carbide toolpoint.
you will of course need a carbide capable or diamond wheel for the grinding mechanism to dress the carbide tip.
an old file can also be ground down to the correct shape for performing scraping operations as well, you'll just be resharpening the cutting edge a lot more than using a carbide toolpoint


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## chuckorlando (Nov 16, 2014)

I would caution you to either make what ever you learn on or spend very little money. Reall suck to ruin a 500 dollar rough cast straight edge.


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## astjp2 (Nov 16, 2014)

I bought my rough casting camelback for $75 plus shipping, I have not finished it yet but its pretty close.  Tim


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## chuckorlando (Nov 16, 2014)

How big is it? You got a link to who you got it from? 75 is a solid price to learn on no doubt.


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## astjp2 (Nov 16, 2014)

Do a search on this website for Greg Dermer, I posted the  contact information for both of the people that make them.  I would have to do some digging to find the info again...tim

oh, it was an 18" camelback, not 24...


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## DMS (Nov 16, 2014)

I will add to your list a pair of cast iron angle plates. You may actually need to do three as a set. You can get ground plates for a modest price, and make them much better.


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## benmychree (Nov 16, 2014)

Ulma Doctor said:


> IMHO, i'd do the 1-2-3 blocks first.
> they are cheap, they are readily available and easy to work with.
> you'll get an almost instant sense of accomplishment that will give you confidence to try something larger and so on.
> 
> ...


I have yet to see 1-2-3 blocks made of anything but hardened steel, so not so good to scrape.  Start with a cast iron block of some sort that is smaller than your surface plate, and learn to scrape on that before taking on something larger or more complicated.  As far as the scraper is concerned, I started with a file that I forged down thin on the end, re hardened it, and sharpened it carefully, and used it a good bit until I was able to "acquire" a insert type holder made by Sandvik, where the insert clamps into the end of the shank, from where I worked at the time back in the 1960s; I am still using the same insert, they last a long time with careful sharpening .  Just any old carbide does not make the grade here;  the inserts are made of carbide that is very fine grained and very hard, and need a diamond wheel to sharpen;  green abrasive wheels cause chipping on the cutting edges which give poor results on the scraped finish.  The inserts are available from Biax, and are not at all cheap, but will last many years.  After you have taught yourself to scrape and get good results, then go on to more ambitious projects, and you may want to attend one of Rich King's scraping classes, as Ulma Doc and I both have done and really learn how to do it from a professional; his classes are geared to the beginner, and you will learn to do it the right way, both hand and power scraping; he has videos as well.


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## Ulma Doctor (Nov 16, 2014)

benmychree said:


> I have yet to see 1-2-3 blocks made of anything but hardened steel, so not so good to scrape.  Start with a cast iron block of some sort that is smaller than your surface plate, and learn to scrape on that before taking on something larger or more complicated. Quote]
> 
> good points,
> i thought import 25x75x100mm blocks were often softer and could be scraped.
> thanks for the clarification.


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## chuckorlando (Nov 16, 2014)

You could make some 123 blocks. They dont have to be hardened to be a useful tool and certainly not to learn on.

You can get scraping blades on ebay for 5 or 10 bucks. I ordered one when I stumbled across them, just have yet to make the scraper


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## Uglydog (Nov 16, 2014)

This may seem like a waste time....
But, consider just getting some cold rolled steel and making 123 blocks.
They'll have plenty of uses for blocking on the bandsaw or drill press later.
Regardless, if your first scraping looks anything like mine, then you will want little investment as you walk it to the scrap bin.

Daryl
MN


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## astjp2 (Nov 16, 2014)

Machines are normally cast iron so I would work with CI because you need to get the feel for what you are scraping if you are going to do a machine later.  Find a piece of cast iron.....and scrape it.  I have several blocks that I bought from a supplier in Salt Lake City, scrap for them but wonderful to play with.  Machining was surprisingly dirty with carbon but roughing it with a mill and file gets you close so you don't have to work as much.  Have small goals, if not the boredom will cause you go insane.  Also skip the Prussian blue, invest in a pint of cannode Blue and yellow.  The contrasting colors will help you determine where to remove material.  Been there with the Prussian blue, it was a mess that does not clean up easy or quick.  The Cannode is water soluble and much easier on the skin and clothes.  You also want a good brayer, it also makes life easier and is not very expensive.  I am still new at this but I found that trying things and letting people know what works and why may save someone else time later.  Tim


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## spaceman_spiff (Nov 16, 2014)

thanks for the suggestions guys

im planning on getting the dykem hyspot paste from mcmaster sinces its cheap and easy to get

i cant seem to find the cannode anywhere thats less than $30..I wish someone sold it in small qty on ebay with USPS shipping..hey thats an idea...

imma try and make a 123 block, or perhaps just a flat surface at first, on some cast iron..

so I suppose that means I need a block of cast iron...I can mill it flat then go from there?


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## chuckorlando (Nov 16, 2014)

Yes you can


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## Andre (Nov 16, 2014)

Look at the blog I have posted on my profile scraping instructions if you do not know them already.

A 90* angle plate would be a great start, I actually have one I've been scraping lately. Thread on it here.


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## Uglydog (Nov 17, 2014)

astjb2, is correct about CI. Depends on how good you are at scrounging and you local resources.

Have a good time, and be prepared to turn your 1/2/3 into a .5/1/1.5. Is also useful.

Daryl 
MN


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SG51Buss (Nov 17, 2014)

Ulma Doctor said:


> benmychree said:
> 
> 
> > I have yet to see 1-2-3 blocks made of anything but hardened steel, so not so good to scrape.  Start with a cast iron block of some sort that is smaller than your surface plate, and learn to scrape on that before taking on something larger or more complicated.
> ...



Boy, I see you on that one!  My dadgum import vices and hydraulic press plates are all that soft cast iron stuff.  Pretty much expect it now on any import, my typical knee-jerk reaction.

I have a 4" import drill press vice that could use some scraping.  If you were nearby it would be on your bench today...


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## GA Gyro (Nov 17, 2014)

Saw this thread on the latest posts...

Hope this is not hi-jacking to much... however... had this idea...

For the purpose of 'true-ing' the ways of a lathe or mill... would it be possible (reasonable) to consider mounting a grinder on the spindle of a Bridgeport style mill, then mount the parts to be 'trued' on the table... and grind them?

This was/is an idea I had a while back... thought I would run it by folks and see how many holes there are in the idea.

THX for any replies.

John/GA


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## astjp2 (Nov 18, 2014)

NO, grinding is not the correct surface for machine ways....or a mill table or lathe bed unless its specifically designed for turcite and then it is scraped.  Tim


GA said:


> Saw this thread on the latest posts...
> 
> Hope this is not hi-jacking to much... however... had this idea...
> 
> ...


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## chuckorlando (Nov 18, 2014)

You would maybe grind it or mill it before you scrap it if you have a lot of variation to remove. Take you for ever to scrap .025 off the last 3in of the ways to get to the sag. At least in my head anyways, no experience.


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## GA Gyro (Nov 18, 2014)

astjp2 said:


> NO, grinding is not the correct surface for machine ways....or a mill table or lathe bed unless its specifically designed for turcite and then it is scraped.  Tim



Hmmm...

Now you have my curiosity up...
Is grinding too smooth to hold oil?

Curious as to the 'why' on this...
And why Turcite is different?

THX


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## Holescreek (Nov 18, 2014)

GA said:


> Hmmm...
> 
> Now you have my curiosity up...
> Is grinding too smooth to hold oil?
> ...



Short answer: friction.

Ground surfaces are too flat. Have you ever wrung gauge blocks together? Ground surfaces (although no where near as flat as gauge blocks) create too much drag. You are correct in that they don't hold oil but they also don't play well with foreign objects that get caught between them, especially if the object is a steel chip that is harder than the ground cast iron.


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## benmychree (Nov 18, 2014)

In machine tool building and rebuilding, commonly the bed or table ways are ground, for a smooth true surface; then the matching surfaces, I.E. the saddle of a lathe or the saddle of a mill is scraped to fit the ground ways, whether on the original surface or the Turcite that has been applied to the worn member if necessary; this presents a surface that may be flaked to hold oil to the ground surface.  The ground surface, or scraped if that is the mode of the rebuild, should never be flaked due to the possibility of dirt or small chips may be dragged into the interface and cause wear.  This mode is seen all too often for decorative purposes ---  This is one lesson learned in Rich King's scraping classes.


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## astjp2 (Nov 18, 2014)

This is dependent on what types of ways the machine has.  Box ways will be ground due to ease of manufacture, dovetails will largely be scraped.  Read the Connelly book, it gives the best explanation.  Turcite is a plastic that has metal like brass imbedded in it that is scraped to hold and channel the way lube and becomes the wear surface over the hardened ways.  Tim




benmychree said:


> In machine tool building and rebuilding, commonly the bed or table ways are ground, for a smooth true surface; then the matching surfaces, I.E. the saddle of a lathe or the saddle of a mill is scraped to fit the ground ways, whether on the original surface or the Turcite that has been applied to the worn member if necessary; this presents a surface that may be flaked to hold oil to the ground surface.  The ground surface, or scraped if that is the mode of the rebuild, should never be flaked due to the possibility of dirt or small chips may be dragged into the interface and cause wear.  This mode is seen all too often for decorative purposes ---  This is one lesson learned in Rich King's scraping classes.


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## John Hasler (Nov 18, 2014)

astjp2 said:


> This is dependent on what types of ways the machine has.  Box ways will be ground due to ease of manufacture, dovetails will largely be scraped.  Read the Connelly book, it gives the best explanation.  Turcite is a plastic that has metal like brass imbedded in it that is scraped to hold and channel the way lube and becomes the wear surface over the hardened ways.  Tim



When I was researching scraping and oil retention the the only peer-reviewed paper I found on the subject concluded that the optimum surface had .1" dia by .001" deep round-bottomed dimples burnished into it so as to cover 25% of the area.  This resulted in a 25% reduction in wear compared to a ground surface.  Thus the best thing to do is to go over your ways with a ball-peen hammer and then stone out the ridges.

I'm not about to try it.


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## Ulma Doctor (Nov 18, 2014)

in Richard King's scraping class we were shooting for 20-25 DPI, .0005" to .001" deep , oil flaking was .002"-.004" deep.


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## John Hasler (Nov 18, 2014)

Ulma Doctor said:


> in Richard King's scraping class we were shooting for 20-25 DPI, .0005" to .001" deep , oil flaking was .002"-.004" deep.



Could you explain oil flaking?


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## GA Gyro (Nov 18, 2014)

John Hasler said:


> When I was researching scraping and oil retention the the only peer-reviewed paper I found on the subject concluded that the optimum surface had .1" dia by .001" deep round-bottomed dimples burnished into it so as to cover 25% of the area.  This resulted in a 25% reduction in wear compared to a ground surface.  Thus the best thing to do is to go over your ways with a ball-peen hammer and then stone out the ridges.
> 
> *I'm not about to try it.*



That does make sense... however... I agree... not on my machine... unless someone else shows me it works.

Funny how that goes...


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## GA Gyro (Nov 18, 2014)

Just wanted to say THX to all the folks who posted comments on grinding and scraping ways...

This is something new to me... I truly appreciate the sharing of understanding... :thumbsup2:

Love to learn!

John


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## Ulma Doctor (Nov 18, 2014)

John Hasler said:


> Could you explain oil flaking?



flaking is a different method of scraping, you will see rows of a half moon looking pattern.
it can be produced by hand or by dedicated biax scraper.
the motion of the tool is slightly different, for lack of better descriptive powers, it has a dishing/gouging motion that produces heavier grooves in the intended material that trap an even greater volume of oil.


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## John Hasler (Nov 18, 2014)

Ulma Doctor said:


> flaking is a different method of scraping, you will see rows of a half moon looking pattern.
> it can be produced by hand or by dedicated biax scraper.
> the motion of the tool is slightly different, for lack of better descriptive powers, it has a dishing/gouging motion that produces heavier grooves in the intended material that trap an even greater volume of oil.



Ok.  I thought that "oil flaking" referred to a different method of flaking that somehow involved the use of oil.


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## astjp2 (Nov 19, 2014)

Considering I am less than a year away from my doctorate, I can honestly say that true craftsman like Richard King probably will not publish a peer reviewed article, they will write a book.  His course and the Connelly book are two of the most relevant sources on this subject that comes from generations of trial and error.  Most PHD candidates don't give a .... about the amount of oil is scraped vs ground ways because researching it is not adding to the body of knowledge. A masters student may look at reducing friction in a body for a project that is evaluating a machining process or machine manufacturing technique but PHD candidates are looking to continue someone else's work that is considered ground breaking and way scraping probably is not the hot topic of the 21st century.  Tim



John Hasler said:


> When I was researching scraping and oil retention the the only peer-reviewed paper I found on the subject concluded that the optimum surface had .1" dia by .001" deep round-bottomed dimples burnished into it so as to cover 25% of the area.  This resulted in a 25% reduction in wear compared to a ground surface.  Thus the best thing to do is to go over your ways with a ball-peen hammer and then stone out the ridges.
> 
> I'm not about to try it.


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## John Hasler (Nov 19, 2014)

astjp2 said:


> Considering I am less than a year away from my doctorate, I can honestly say that true craftsman like Richard King probably will not publish a peer reviewed article, they will write a book.  His course and the Connelly book are two of the most relevant sources on this subject that comes from generations of trial and error.  Most PHD candidates don't give a .... about the amount of oil is scraped vs ground ways because researching it is not adding to the body of knowledge. A masters student may look at reducing friction in a body for a project that is evaluating a machining process or machine manufacturing technique but PHD candidates are looking to continue someone else's work that is considered ground breaking and way scraping probably is not the hot topic of the 21st century.  Tim



Tribology and lubrication are active areas of engineering research.  Surface treatment is an important part of that.  The question of what degree and type of roughness minimizes wear is quite interesting to machine tool manufacturers.


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## astjp2 (Nov 19, 2014)

That maybe true but scholars are not publishing journal articles on this topic, if they were, there would be more.  Engineers are more likely to publish in a trade magazine to get this information out as a sales pitch on a product they developed or a new fandangled whoopdeedoo that they are selling.  Not many machinists are going to look at the American Psychological Association, but they do paruse Modern Machine Shop.  We get that magazine at work and it does provide excellent information on new products and techniques or new ways to look at old ideas.  Tim



John Hasler said:


> Tribology and lubrication are active areas of engineering research.  Surface treatment is an important part of that.  The question of what degree and type of roughness minimizes wear is quite interesting to machine tool manufacturers.


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## John Hasler (Nov 19, 2014)

astjp2 said:


> That maybe true but scholars are not publishing journal articles on this topic, if they were, there would be more.  Engineers are more likely to publish in a trade magazine to get this information out as a sales pitch on a product they developed or a new fandangled whoopdeedoo that they are selling.  Not many machinists are going to look at the American Psychological Association, but they do paruse Modern Machine Shop.  We get that magazine at work and it does provide excellent information on new products and techniques or new ways to look at old ideas.  Tim



Faculty at engineering schools publish in peer-reviewed engineering journals.  And I noted that I found only one paper.


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## DMS (Nov 20, 2014)

Uglydog said:


> This may seem like a waste time....
> But, consider just getting some cold rolled steel and making 123 blocks.
> They'll have plenty of uses for blocking on the bandsaw or drill press later.
> Regardless, if your first scraping looks anything like mine, then you will want little investment as you walk it to the scrap bin.
> ...



I made a dovetail slide from mild steel stock. I have to say I wish I had used a different material. The steel was soft and gummy, and difficult to scrape. It also isn't a very good bearing surface. If you are making tools you want to use, I recommend spending the few extra bucks for some cast iron. I did this for a 55 degree prism I scraped, and the results were much better, and the work was much more pleasant. 

That being said, I did use a piece of mild steel for the base of a small surface gauge I made, and while CI would have been better, I am sill using the existing base, so it is doable.


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## benmychree (Nov 20, 2014)

Ulma Doctor said:


> flaking is a different method of scraping, you will see rows of a half moon looking pattern.
> it can be produced by hand or by dedicated biax scraper.
> the motion of the tool is slightly different, for lack of better descriptive powers, it has a dishing/gouging motion that produces heavier grooves in the intended material that trap an even greater volume of oil.



I can elaborate on the Biax scrapers;  The scraper itself has a recriprocating motion in line with it's axis and uses a thin flat cutting blade that has a included angle on it's cutting face a little less than 90 degrees and has a small radius transversely. The flaker has a rocking motion to the tool, which is curved in both of it's cutting faces, with different radii in three different sizes for small, medium and large patterns; as the cutter rocks, the tool is pushed along at a constant rate, that makes the half moon pattern.


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## astjp2 (Dec 7, 2014)

Did u ever get a project?


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