# PM-45 or PM-932 for eventual cnc?



## Dan_S (Dec 23, 2013)

I'm getting pretty close to having the funds I need to finally get a mill (Feb or Mar). I plan to eventually cnc it, but that will be a while down the road, as I want to get a larger lathe first (got an 8x14 currently). When it comes time to cnc it, I'm going to geek out and go dual closed loop with servos, and maybe even spindle positioning.

Thus I want to start with a good manual mill since it's going to take time to build up the funds to do what I want. Thus I'm considering the PM-45M-PDF (with power feed) or the PM-932M-PDF, since the price difference is only $200. Can anyone see anything in the specs that makes one machine better than the other for future cnc conversion?

I know the PM-45M-CNC comes with hardened ways, does anyone know if that's an option for the PM-45M-PDF?

Anyone heard anything about the benchtop mills from Taiwan Matt is working on?


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## mattthemuppet2 (Dec 23, 2013)

I read a long and interesting thread on here by Jumps (something) who CNC'd an equivalent mill from Wholesale Tools. Might be worth checking it out and posting this in the CNC forum, you'll probably get more traction there. As far as I can see (and this is purely armchair engineering) most of this class mill/ drill are basically the same, with the differences coming down to QC and various add-ons. Given that you'll be stripping it down to the bare bones to CNC it, as long as the fundamentals fit your bill then you should be good with any of them.


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## Ray C (Dec 23, 2013)

You might want to give Matt a call because, I believe you can just buy the CNC mill w/o the electronics and you can build-it-up at your own pace.

Ray



Dan_S said:


> I'm getting pretty close to having the funds I need to finally get a mill (Feb or Mar). I plan to eventually cnc it, but that will be a while down the road, as I want to get a larger lathe first (got an 8x14 currently). When it comes time to cnc it, I'm going to geek out and go dual closed loop with servos, and maybe even spindle positioning.
> 
> Thus I want to start with a good manual mill since it's going to take time to build up the funds to do what I want. Thus I'm considering the PM-45M-PDF (with power feed) or the PM-932M-PDF, since the price difference is only $200. Can anyone see anything in the specs that makes one machine better than the other for future cnc conversion?
> 
> ...


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## Dan_S (Dec 23, 2013)

I've considered that, but I know he is a busy man, and I didn't want to bother him until I had the funds in hand.



Ray C said:


> You might want to give Matt a call because, I believe you can just buy the CNC mill w/o the electronics and you can build-it-up at your own pace.
> 
> Ray


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## Ray C (Dec 23, 2013)

I'll see what I can find-out...


Ray




Dan_S said:


> I've considered that, but I know he is a busy man, and I didn't want to bother him until I had the funds in hand.


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## coolidge (Dec 23, 2013)

My advice is don't even start down this road, buy a REAL used CNC mill that was designed to be a CNC mill. You can get a used Haas CNC mill for under $10k. The same $10k (and you can absolutely sink $10k into one of these) will buy you a LOUD Z axis sticking backlash infested joke 1 tool at a time lost my Z reference wanna-be CNC mill/drill fiasco. How's that for not sugar coating my experience.


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## Dan_S (Dec 23, 2013)

That would be great if I had the space and was ok with the weight of the machine. I work in an industry where people move around a lot, no way am I moving something like a Hass or even a BP several hundreds of miles. I owned the predecessor to the Millritre for a while, and even that was a pain in the butt to deal with at 1500lbs.



coolidge said:


> My advice is don't even start down this road, buy a REAL used CNC mill that was designed to be a CNC mill. You can get a used Haas CNC mill for under $10k. The same $10k (and you can absolutely sink $10k into one of these) will buy you a LOUD Z axis sticking backlash infested joke 1 tool at a time lost my Z reference wanna-be CNC mill/drill fiasco. How's that for not sugar coating my experience.


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## Senna (Dec 23, 2013)

A CNC'd PM45 will weigh 1200#+ and a CNC'd PM932 will weigh 1500#+.

Doesn't seem to be much weight savings over the Millrite you had.

If your particular circumstances dictate a small benchtop mill then so be it but be under no illusion that this type of a machine can give as long-lived or as accurate service as a true industrial quality CNC mill.


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## Ray C (Dec 23, 2013)

For a brief time, I thought of buying a used Haas or Mazak.  Yes, you can get them on eBay and other places ranging in cost from 15 to 20 grand (give or take depend on condition).  The ones I found in those price ranges were at the low end of the spectrum and were stripped down of most of the useful components.  The cost of getting those things replaced would add another 2-5 grand.

---But the real show-stopper is the software.  In some cases, you need to transfer ownership of the software.  -And that's another 2-5 grand and if you want maintenance on the software, add another 4 grand a year.  If the machine does not come with software and you want to purchase a license for what it originally came with, prepare to spend another 12 grand...

I purchased the PM 45 CNC -and one of these days, I'll go get it and tell you all about it.   Here you go, check it out.  The one I got is fully tricked-out... 7 grand and it's plug & play.  Just add CAM software (it comes with Mach III control software).   http://www.machinetoolonline.com/PM-45M-CNC.html

Ray


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## Dan_S (Dec 23, 2013)

Senna said:


> A CNC'd PM45 will weigh 1200#+ and a CNC'd PM932 will weigh 1500#+.
> 
> Doesn't seem to be much weight savings over the Millrite you had.
> 
> If your particular circumstances dictate a small benchtop mill then so be it but be under no illusion that this type of a machine can give as long-lived or as accurate service as a true industrial quality CNC mill.



This is what I used to have, and apparently I disliked moving it so much that I blocked out  that it was 1800 lbs. The benefit of the benchtop machines imo is that they can be quickly be broken down into  sub-components that can be handle by 2 people. I'm well aware of the limitations of a cnc conversion.


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## Buffalo Bob (Dec 23, 2013)

coolidge said:


> My advice is don't even start down this road, buy a REAL used CNC mill that was designed to be a CNC mill. You can get a used Haas CNC mill for under $10k. The same $10k (and you can absolutely sink $10k into one of these) will buy you a LOUD Z axis sticking backlash infested joke 1 tool at a time lost my Z reference wanna-be CNC mill/drill fiasco. How's that for not sugar coating my experience.



Thanks. I had been thinking about the Tormack but just checked out HAAS. No comparison. Hendricks Motor Sports uses HAAS machines for all their well respected engines. Boy would I love to watch that shop make stuff. So when my ship comes in HAAS is my choice. Check out the fuel filler cap and fitting for the race cars. Wow...............
Bob
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2n7PICO3vyo&feature=share&list=UU51sOl_8A6qZnh_i0tf9p-Q&index=6


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## Senna (Dec 23, 2013)

Dan_S said:


> This is what I used to have, and apparently I disliked moving it so much that I blocked out  that it was 1800 lbs. The benefit of the benchtop machines imo is that they can be quickly be broken down into  sub-components that can be handle by 2 people. I'm well aware of the limitations of a cnc conversion.



I absolutely understand where you're coming from and if you're going into this with your eyes open, and it seems you are, then you'll likely find the PM perfectly acceptable.
I've gotten good at moving heavy equipment around though since my lightest vertical mill weighs 2500# and my heaviest is upwards of 3500#.
Heck, I can even move my 5500# SG around easily now.

My circumstances allow me to put accuracy, affordability, and longevity well over mobility in a calculus of important aspects in machine tool design. Your circumstances demand a different calculus.


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## coolidge (Dec 23, 2013)

Buffalo Bob said:


> Thanks. I had been thinking about the Tormack but just checked out HAAS. No comparison. Hendricks Motor Sports uses HAAS machines for all their well respected engines. Boy would I love to watch that shop make stuff. So when my ship comes in HAAS is my choice. Check out the fuel filler cap and fitting for the race cars. Wow...............
> Bob
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2n7PICO3vyo&feature=share&list=UU51sOl_8A6qZnh_i0tf9p-Q&index=6



Yeah and that's just a small tool room Haas. Larger ones like my brothers Haas VF2SS really move. 

These mill drill CNC conversions...folks I had a chance to purchase an old but perfectly running Haas VF1 for $6k. That Haas easily fits in a garage. Like an idiot I decided to purchase a mill/drill CNC conversion machine because I wanted the machine in my basement shop. :banghead: Yes I worked around 'some' of its short comings and yes I machined many things with it. It only cost me a gob of money and time and frustration and repairs. :banghead:

I know how attractive the idea of a smaller seemingly more affordable (I would argue that in the long run) CNC mill/drill is. I have been there and done that. Here's my advice...get a money back guarantee in writing that the machine can do everything they say it can do and hit the tolerances and backlash they say it can hit and not lose position. One good test is with the gibs properly adjusted have the manufacturer set Z 0.000 then move the head up and down the full length of the Z axis travel 30 or 40 or 50 times then re-check Z, is it dead on? It should be, my guess is many will not be. Have them machine a circle, do you see/feel a lip in the material when the X or Y axis changes direction? You shouldn't.

Just go into this with your eyes wide open, I'll shut up now.


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## coolidge (Dec 24, 2013)

Dan_S said:


> That would be great if I had the space and was ok with the weight of the machine. I work in an industry where people move around a lot, no way am I moving something like a Hass or even a BP several hundreds of miles. I owned the predecessor to the Millritre for a while, and even that was a pain in the butt to deal with at 1500lbs.



Dan that's what riggers and truckers are for. Riggers will come load it and unload it for a few hundred bucks, trucker will truck it wherever. My brother just moved a 15,000 pound Mori NL2500Y from Ohio to Washington state, rigging was $400 and shipping was $3,000. The thing took up half the trailer. My guess is maybe $1,500 max depending on how far you are moving. You can move a car coast to coast for about $2,000. Just saying. :drink2:


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## Dan_S (Dec 24, 2013)

The other part of the equation is that I like designing and duilding stuff. To me building the mill will probably be more fun than using it.


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## coolidge (Dec 24, 2013)

Dan_S said:


> The other part of the equation is that I like designing and duilding stuff. To me building the mill will probably be more fun than using it.



We are two peas in a pod Dan, I once built a 30" diameter dual pump vacuum thermoforming press with reserve tanks and quartz heaters and I currently scratch build tube guitar amps. Hopefully the quality of these mill drills has improved dramatically since I purchased mine 6 years ago, best of luck to you in your build hopefully I have at least given you some things to watch out for.


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## GA Gyro (Aug 13, 2014)

Dan_S said:


> The other part of the equation is that I like designing and duilding stuff. To me building the mill will probably be more fun than using it.





coolidge said:


> We are two peas in a pod Dan, I once built a 30" diameter dual pump vacuum thermoforming press with reserve tanks and quartz heaters and I currently scratch build tube guitar amps. Hopefully the quality of these mill drills has improved dramatically since I purchased mine 6 years ago, best of luck to you in your build hopefully I have at least given you some things to watch out for.



I fear I fall into that category also...

I am having a great time designing little parts and making them for EAB aircraft... 
Somehow I find time to fly them... however I find myself thinking about the next version of this or that part sometimes when I need to be looking out for birds... 
(Or is that  )


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