# Having trouble after QCTP install.



## jtb51b (Jan 16, 2017)

I am having trouble after installing my QCTP. I used the lathe and a 4 jaw chuck to cut the t-nut for this new setup (just faced the plate down and then cut the sides with a band saw to fit). Other than the old toolpost slipping, and not having the correct angle holder it worked fine. These are the reasons I am replacing the tool post, I was apparently using mis matched stuff and was missing some shims. I know NOTHING about being a machinist, but it was working fine before and now it seems to be going crazy. I have some steel rod that I have been turning down just practicing on and I was cutting nice little spirals of material off, and leaving a fairly decent finish, now it seems like I am making ez-outs! Thats what it looks like anyway. Also the machine is making a chattering noise, the headstock seems as tight as new, and nothing seems to have changed. I still dont have the machine bolted to the floor (keep forgetting to grab a concrete bit), but it wasnt before either! I made new tools, more correct tools, tried using some tools with carbide cutters, tried different speeds ETC. I have no idea what to do next. Maybe something has slipped in the 3 jaw and it has a lot of runout, I guess maybe I should try to find a test bar. Any ideas?  I will try to take a picture of what I have going on.


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## jtb51b (Jan 16, 2017)

Here is a pic of what I have  The right side I turned down before changing tool post, the left side I did directly after!


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## chips&more (Jan 16, 2017)

If you just changed the tool post. Then maybe the new tool post did not get secured properly? Maybe it’s still lose? And please STOP that chatter testing…PLEEEEEEASE! You could easily damage other parts of your lathe with that kind of improper cutting, thank  you, Dave.


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## schor (Jan 16, 2017)

Make sure your bolt is not passing through the t-nut and bottoming out.


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## Bob Korves (Jan 16, 2017)

Also make sure that the top of the t-nut is not clamping to the tool post.  The tool post should clamp down tightly to the top of the compound rest.  Pull the t-nut up with the tool post bolt and see if it protrudes above the top of the compound rest.  If so, it needs to be machined until it stays below the top of the compound rest.  It sounds like something is loose and not rigid in your tool post mounting.


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## jtb51b (Jan 16, 2017)

I will check it out, I did check for shaft protrusion prior to tightening and had none, Thought I checked the t nut center height also. The tool post is VERY tightly mounted to the top of the compound. it seems like the workpiece is no longer running true, I checked with a magnetic base holding a dial indicator and it confirmed that the bar is NOT turning true AT ALL. Could my 3 jaw chuck have gotten out of whack just by threading it off the spindle shaft? I didnt drop it or handle it roughly, just removed it and layed it aside to use the 4 jaw. I would love to stop this chatter testing, trust me..


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## jtb51b (Jan 16, 2017)

OK, went and checked the toolpost mounting, it is VERY tightly mounted to the compound, the shaft does NOT protrude, the t-nut does NOT touch the bottom of the tool post. I may have found the problem, I gave everything a good shake and the carriage moved--a lot.. Somehow the bolt that tightens the carriage to the ways (I believe this can be used as a lock?) had been backed off a couple TURNS. I tightened it back down to where it should be and we will see later this week what that does for me.  Who knows how that happened. FYI the 3 jaw does still look to be not running true, I will tackle that problem next I guess..

Thanks for the quick help!
Jason


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## T. J. (Jan 16, 2017)

The bolt on the saddle that lies just to the right of the cross slide is the carriage lock. It should be loose unless you want it locked. If that's the bolt you're talking about, it's not the cause of your chatter.

Check the tightness of the cross slide and compound gibs.


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## jtb51b (Jan 16, 2017)

That is the bolt I am referring to, it was VERY loose. and when its very loose so is the saddle. I ran it down just until it took the slack up in the carriage. Your saying that this bolt is either  ON or OFF basically? It should ONLY lock the saddle down, not provide any adjustments? Reason I ask is because if so, something is wrong and I need to be looking for the correct place to adjust that.

Jason


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## brino (Jan 16, 2017)

Hi Jason,

If your bar did run true, then you removed and replaced the chuck and the bar is no longer running true, then I would suspect a some debris on the threaded spindle nose or on the chuck internal threads. Perhaps a chip is not letting the chuck plate seat squarely on the spindle nose shoulder.

Are you using a tail-stock centre? It might help. Sometimes the jaws of the 3 (or 4)-jaw chuck get worn to a taper. They then only grip over a small contact area. It is called bell-mouth. The pressure of your cutting tool can push the work backwards, as the lathe rotates the work it keeps getting pushed backwards, and actually can work itself loose from the chuck. The best solution to that is to regrind the jaws with a tool-post grinder, but certain precautions need to be taken; keeping the abrasive grit off the lathe and pre-loading the jaws.

That chatter is most likely caused by some thing loose or flexing in your tool setup. It could be anything from the tool bit, to the holder, to the top-slide, the cross-slide or the carriage. Try the shortest tool stick-out you can. Try adjusting the top, cross and carriage gibs/slides so that they just slide easily with no binding, but no slop.

What is the diameter of your test bar and what material?
What material is your tool bit?
What is your speed, feed and Depth- of cut (DOC)?
Has your tool just gotten dull and therefore can no longer cut properly?

-brino


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## jtb51b (Jan 16, 2017)

I am not certain the bar ever ran true, this is a new to me lathe. Before, I was learning to thread but I was using very short pieces of stock. These same pieces of stock now seem out of round. I did make certain to clean the spindle threads very well both inside and outside threads. I believe we are on to something with the method in which I am tightening the saddle to the ways, maybe something is missing?? I looked over the parts breakdown, and think I may have determined the proper tightening points but those are bottomed out and doing nothing. I will have to look deeper into it when I get back in town later this week. TO answer your questions:

I am turning down 1.25" mild steel rod (cold roll?)
The tool bits are both HSS and carbide
The speeds I have tried are 350-700 RPM my feed is set to .011? and the DOC has varried but .002 to .0010
I have tried several tools, made new ETC with no luck. I thought the same thing.


Thank you for the help,

Jason


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## ch2co (Jan 16, 2017)

Did I miss something? What kind of a lathe is this? New, Used, Brand, Size e.g. 10-24 etc.  Pics of the lathe, saddle etc might also help.


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## Mister Ed (Jan 16, 2017)

All or any of the above mentioned issues could be causing your problem.

I was just going to mention the 4 screws/bolts on the saddle that tighten the saddle gibs ... but I think you may have found them. If not they are in red below. I think you lathe is the earlier version (if I remember correctly) but they are still there, and more easily visible in this parts breakdown. The front is up inside the bed and the rear is visible from the outside of the bed. If the saddle has been off, those spacer blocks can be a bugger to get back in place correctly. If I recall correctly, mine had a step in them and getting that step miss aligned created slop even if the screws were tight.


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## T. J. (Jan 16, 2017)

I was going to post a picture of my saddle, but Mr Ed did me one better by posting the parts diagram. The carriage lock bolt that I was referring to earlier is part #175.


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## RJSakowski (Jan 16, 2017)

Since you were able to turn without chatter previously, it would seem to me that the cause of your chatter is connected with the tool post change.  You said that you used your four jaw chuck to make the Tee nut which required removing and then reinstalling the three jaw chuck.  Runout on a chuck will not normally cause chatter.  A loose chuck will though.  Mount a long sturdy bar in the chuck and see if you can detect movement when you push and pull on it. A dial indicator or rest indicator will make this easier.  Push on the bar and note the indicator reading when you release the bar.  Now pull on the bar.  If the indicator reading changes, you have something loose in the chuck system.  

If the chuck seems solid, the next possibility is the new tool post.  You can run a similar test on the QCTP.  If it appears solid then you will need to look elsewhere.  I would suggest geometry.  How are you setting your tool height?  The wrong height will cause chatter. Are your tools mounted firmly in your new setup?  You can always reinstall the old tool post to see if the problem goes away.  This will narrow the possibilities.


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## wa5cab (Jan 17, 2017)

How about posting a photograph of your carriage, compound and tool post.  If you just switched from a lantern type tool post to a QCTP, you may not know that there are about four right ways to set them and an infinite number of wrong ways.  Also, if you are trying to use a cutter that was ground for a typical lantern setup where the top of the cutter blank is not horizontal, that cutter won't work right in a QCTP where the blanks are always horizontal.

Part bubble numbers 199 and 307 (or 397) are carriage hold downs (and there is no carriage gib on a V-bed carriage).  This shouldn't have anything to do with your chatter, but with the carriage lock loose (as it should be for any operation involving carriage left-right movement), pick up on the apron.  If there is appreciable vertical movement, there is wear on the top of 199.  Same comment with 307 when lifting the rear of the saddle.The parts list does not show any shims so you might be able to reduce the front lift-off by removing 199 and the two spacer blocks and inverting 199 to get a new surface.  From the drawing, I can't tell whether or not you can do that with 307.


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## brino (Jan 17, 2017)

jtb51b said:


> I am not certain the bar ever ran true



........but if you cut the surface off once, that would true it. 

New stock bar may not be round, especially near the ends where it is sheared. The first cuts may be "interrupted cuts" where you do not cut the entire surface because it is out of round. Typically it gets centred "close enough" and then once you make a pass that cleans up the entire surface. Now it is round. 

Once that is done, (and if the work is tight in the chuck) then removing and replacing the chuck should not matter as long as the thread and shoulder are clean. The work should run true again. If that's not happening then the issue may be the chuck, or whatever reference your measuring the run-out from may be moving.

-brino


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## jtb51b (Jan 17, 2017)

brino said:


> ........but if you cut the surface off once, that would true it.
> 
> New stock bar may not be round, especially near the ends where it is sheared. The first cuts may be "interrupted cuts" where you do not cut the entire surface because it is out of round. Typically it gets centred "close enough" and then once you make a pass that cleans up the entire surface. Now it is round.
> 
> ...


Thank you again for the information. I will double check the threads on the spindle and chuck. I am definately NOT centered, I am not concerned with the measuring reference moving as you can see it wobble! Something is definately not right!

I took  a couple pictures of the compound for reference. I can definately move the saddle up and down when the saddle lock is loose quite a bit, not .001 more like and 1/8"! I think you guys have figured out the problem, when I first brought the lathe home I had a machinist buddy look it over, he said everything looked good and helped me tighten up the gibs on everything, we used the saddle lock to tighten the front gib just because we didnt know any better and it seems to do the job. When I get home from my work trip I will try to figure out why I cannot tighten the front gib up to the underside of the ways up front. Looking underneath I can see about an eighth of an inch gap between the frame under the ways and the gib, I only know its the gib because if I loosen the two center bolts it gets looser, cant take the gap up but I can make it larger.  What all is involved if I need to detach the apron from the saddle to get access to that gib?

Thank you again for all the very helpful responses!


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## jtb51b (Jan 17, 2017)

One last thing, the unit has DEFINATELY been apart! I know this because I got a box of parts and tools with the machine and in that box was a set of half nuts that had been recently replaced.   Thanks again, love a place with knowledgable people!

Jason


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## RJSakowski (Jan 17, 2017)

What did you have for your old tool post?  The second photo shows what appears to be a negative rake on the top surface.  This will work with a lantern type tool post as they angle the cutting tool up so you would end up with a zero or negative rake.  Aloris type QCTP presents the tool horizontally so  typically, the top of the cutting tool will be parallel to the shank or ground to provide a positive rake.   A negative rake is essentially a drag type cut or scraping.  Increased forces associated with negative rake tooling will expose issues with machine and/or workpiece rigidity which will cause chatter.


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## jtb51b (Jan 17, 2017)

RJSakowski said:


> What did you have for your old tool post?  The second photo shows what appears to be a negative rake on the top surface.  This will work with a lantern type tool post as they angle the cutting tool up so you would end up with a zero or negative rake.  Aloris type QCTP presents the tool horizontally so  typically, the top of the cutting tool will be parallel to the shank or ground to provide a positive rake.   A negative rake is essentially a drag type cut or scraping.  Increased forces associated with negative rake tooling will expose issues with machine and/or workpiece rigidity which will cause chatter.


I did have a lantern tool post. The picture is a bit deceiving, there is a worn area on the tip and it needs to be reground, but it wasnt cut with a negative rake intentionally. I tried several different tools all with the same effect, some home ground and some store bought, no real difference there. I will try to correct the issue with the front saddle gib when I get home and then will work on making sure the chuck is centered correctly. I am sure there are more things that will pop up, and correct me if I am wrong, but those are fairly major things that need to be corrected ASAP.

Thanks again! 

Jason


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## Mister Ed (Jan 17, 2017)

wa5cab said:


> Part bubble numbers 199 and 307 (or 397) are carriage hold downs (*and there is no carriage gib on a V-bed carriage*).  This shouldn't have anything to do with your chatter ...


Actually Logan calls them a Saddle Gib in the parts breakdown that the OP is looking at. Also, if he can lift either side of the saddle as much as he is indicating, that will more than compound other issues resulting in chatter.

I'm not saying that this is his only issue either ... that tool doesn't look like it has much rake.


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## wa5cab (Jan 18, 2017)

Yeah, I remembered that Logan had made that mistake after I had posted.  The other thing that surprised me was that there were no adjusting shims shown.


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## wa5cab (Jan 18, 2017)

Jason,

I didn't see it earlier as for some reason my browser went to Ed's post.  The normal (I would say proper but someone would probably take exception) orientation for a QCTP that has provision for attaching holders in two positions is that the CW one should be parallel to the lathe longitudinal axis and the CCW one perpendicular and on the left side of the post.  This means that if you rotate your compound swivel for some special purpose, you need to realign the TP.  The quick way to set it is to tighten the hold down bolt or nut finger tight.  Mount your system test bar (everyone should have one) between centers and with the wedge or piston retracted advance the cross slide to bring the TP front face up against the bar.  Fully tighten the bolt or nut.  If on your TP, the front face isn't flat, mount a #1 or #2 holder (AKA #101, 102, 201, 202, etc.) on the front and run that up against the bar.


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## jtb51b (Jan 18, 2017)

I don't have a test bar. I used the face of the chuck to square the tool post. 

Jason


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## coffmajt (Jan 18, 2017)

To eliminate as many variables as you can I would suggest mounting your 4 jaw chuck and using your indicator to dial in your piece to get it running true, then make your test cuts and report back.  If you are still getting a poor surface finish at least you have eliminated the chuck as a problem.  I would also work on the rear saddle gib to snug it down to where it removes as much vertical play as you can without getting the carriage hard to move == Jack


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## tq60 (Jan 18, 2017)

A few observations.

The bad cut looks like screw threads so if not threading then you are trying to cut too fast...feed SLOWER.

Next change your setup and swing the compound away from the Chuck so it is to the right as you look at it.

Change the stick out of your cutter to MINIMUM as that small cutter is sticking out way too far so it can "lever" or give a bit as it bites.

Have the tool at 90 degrees to the work and at center line with everything close as these small lathes combined with possible gaps in the ways everywhere allow all of these gaps to compound.

The long stick out of the cutter gives it leverage to increase force o. Tool post that now is not on center of Carriage which allows it to lever against the ways differently.

I would guess a dial indicator in the correct spot would show movement of parts that should not move as the tool bites material.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337Z using Tapatalk


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## jtb51b (Jan 19, 2017)

OK, I made it back home and took the saddle off. The gib has not been touching at all. The spacers gib spacers (item 348) are round with a relief cut in ONE end. It looks as though if your going to use something round as a spacer it would have a relief (flat) cut on both ends so it could hold the gib parallel with the saddle and the ways. Have I the wrong parts, or am I missing something. I will send pics of what I have.

Jason


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## jtb51b (Jan 19, 2017)

pics of gib, spacer and underside of sadddle. dirty stuff there!


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## jtb51b (Jan 19, 2017)

FYI that is sawdust from the wood working shop this lathe lived in. oil and dust mix very very wel..


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## T. J. (Jan 19, 2017)

Those parts look just like mine. If the gib wasn't parallel to the bottom surface of the ways, then it wasn't assembled correctly. I wish I had a photo of mine to post, but I neglected to take any of that part of the assembly/disassembly process.


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## jtb51b (Jan 19, 2017)

I believe I have that figured out. I did grind one side of the round spacer to add some relief so it would sit flush on the gib. I reassembled it and all seems MUCH MUCH better! I need to figure out a good way/gib oil for this lathe. I have all kinds of automotive  oils on hand and some cutting oil but I will have to go buy whatever is needed. Any suggestions?  Something I can purchase either from a napa, a bearing supply house or amazon would be helpful. OH YEAH, I believe I may have gotten to the bottom of the chuck problem also. When I took the 3 jaw off, I must have layed it down on something that stuck to the back of it (think grease), I have not tried it yet but I did scrape off a pretty long sliver of it. I cleaned the threads (inside and out) again and oiled the threads with assembly lube and reinstaled the chuck. When I first removed it, it appeared to have anti-sieze in the threads-- is that better than oil for this application? I would think it could cause problems..

Jason


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## Bob Korves (Jan 19, 2017)

Vactra #2 way oil.  Good for all the sliding surfaces.


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## jtb51b (Jan 19, 2017)

I will try to find some of that. I now have the saddle tight to the ways, seems to have no movement. Still seem to be having the same chatter as before. Now that everything is square there I will go back and re-read all the other suggestions and start on those. Cant tell any difference on the chuck, still wobbles-- That cant be good. I am going to have to start making some progress soon or this thing will be scrap..

Jason


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## Mister Ed (Jan 19, 2017)

Parts are correct. You have the older carriage (vs the exploded diagram) its actually part #168.


Were those notches against the carriage or against the gib? Based on the grime it looks like the notch may have been against the carriage. If so, I believe that is upside down.  I think the notch goes toward the gib side, so that the spacer can sit flat on the gib (notch goes over the hump on the gib ... if I remember).


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## Mister Ed (Jan 19, 2017)

jtb51b said:


> I will try to find some of that. I now have the saddle tight to the ways, seems to have no movement. Still seem to be having the same chatter as before. Now that everything is square there I will go back and re-read all the other suggestions and start on those. Cant tell any difference on the chuck, still wobbles-- That cant be good. I am going to have to start making some progress soon or this thing will be scrap..
> 
> Jason


Ahh ... I posted before I saw page #2.

Good on reading back through the other posts. Things to rule out and make better (probably a combination). You will get there, no need to write it off as scrap.

In the time being any oil is better than no oil.


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## wa5cab (Jan 19, 2017)

From the lack of visible wear on the front hold down, it would appear that around 1/8" vertical lift or clearance is normal on that machine.

EDIT:  Well, maybe not.  What do you get when you assemble it as Ed wrote?


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## jtb51b (Jan 19, 2017)

When properly assembled I get ZERO lift.  Everything now seems tight, I am making progress so far not towards a scrap run..  lol

Jason


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## wa5cab (Jan 19, 2017)

OK.  That makes more sense.  But I've learned not to be too surprised when things don't.


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## jtb51b (Jan 20, 2017)

OK more progress made. I believe my biggest issue was SPEED, pure and simple RPMs. I recently got the dual speed pulley bushed up and installed correctly and I have determined that the slower speed there and the bottom 2 speeds on the flat belt work the best for the steel I am cutting. I can speed up to the highest flat belt speed when I done and take a "polishing" cut and its fine. I may or may not have the correct  motor pulley, but I can tell now that for most of the things I want to have the ability to do low speed will be used. I do wonder how I am going to use the live center when I have to work close to it with this new tool post. It seens as tho I will have to allow the cutting tool to protrude more that I am currently doing, although I may be overdoing it with my closeness to the toolpost. How far out is too far out? I really need a machinery's handbook, how much better is the new one vs an older copy? 

Thanks again for all the help!

Jason


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## brino (Jan 20, 2017)

jtb51b said:


> I am turning down 1.25" mild steel rod (cold roll?)
> The tool bits are both HSS and carbide
> The speeds I have tried are 350-700 RPM my feed is set to .011? and the DOC has varried but .002 to .0010
> I have tried several tools, made new ETC with no luck. I thought the same thing.



for a 1.25" dia. piece of mild steel and a HSS tool bit I'd run it about 240 rpm (that's 80 sfpm).

if you don't know that you have the original pulleys (and therefore the original speed ranges) a cheap laser tachometer like this is great:
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/New-Handheld...675837?hash=item3d30db2efd:g:VakAAOSwEK9Tsh1f

I used one and made a chart of speeds with and without back-gear, laminated it and leave it at the lathe.

-brino


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## tq60 (Jan 21, 2017)

Cheap tach...

Fetch a chunk of all thread and place it in the chuck.

Avoid stainless...

Finer is better and have stick out an exact inch...2, 3 and first use wire wheel to be sure no burrs and get a not that fits it.

Chase threads if needed so it spins on the all thread.

Place nut against chuck and run lathe in REVERSE

Grab nut with pliers and have helper time it so see how long it takes for nut to come off.

Then math...

Threads per inch so you know how many rounds in the time it took to come off so easy to determine rpm.

Very crude but it works.

Old school tool was a worm gear device you placed against rotating shaft for a measured time and the dial rotated to indicate rounds so this is home made version of old school tool...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337Z using Tapatalk


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## wa5cab (Jan 21, 2017)

jtb51b said:


> OK more progress made. I believe my biggest issue was SPEED, pure and simple RPMs. I recently got the dual speed pulley bushed up and installed correctly and I have determined that the slower speed there and the bottom 2 speeds on the flat belt work the best for the steel I am cutting. I can speed up to the highest flat belt speed when I done and take a "polishing" cut and its fine. I may or may not have the correct  motor pulley, but I can tell now that for most of the things I want to have the ability to do low speed will be used. I do wonder how I am going to use the live center when I have to work close to it with this new tool post. It seems as tho I will have to allow the cutting tool to protrude more that I am currently doing, although I may be overdoing it with my closeness to the toolpost. How far out is too far out? I really need a machinery's handbook, how much better is the new one vs an older copy?
> 
> Thanks again for all the help!
> 
> Jason



Jason,

To answer your questions in reverse order, I have a 12th edition and two 21st editions.  I don't know what the current edition is up to now but would expect it to have at least some stuff that just doesn't apply to your older manual machine.  So from personal experience, I can say pretty much any edition between 12 and 21 should be fine for use with your lathe.

I assume that you have an AXA size QCTP.  The 101 or 102 holders that are the most commonly used have four set screws.  In most of mine, I have two 3/8" square cutters mounted, one usable for turning and one for facing.  Except that in one, I have a 90 deg, "V"  cutter mounted (in place of a facing one) that I use for routine beveling and chamferring.  They are all arranged such that each cutter occupies one half of the slot.  I would say that is the minimum (or maximum extension).  For working near the live center, what I do is rotate the TP 90 deg. CW, mount the turning cutter as though it were going to be used for facing, and hang it on the right side of the TP.  That usually gives adequate clearance unless the part diameter is very small.  In that case, you can use something like an AL6 brazed carbide cutter and work toward the tailstock instead of toward the headstock.

On cutting speeds, your first step should be to determine what speeds your machine actually does with the pulleys that you have.  Make a speed chart for the machine.  Then in whatever edition of Machinery's Handbook you acquire, find the tables of recommended cutting speeds versus materials.  And the cross-reference table from surface speed to RPM at different diameters.  In the 21st Edition, the speeds versus materials charts start on page 1759.  And the RPM tables on 1790.  Note that you can usually safely use the HSS figures with carbide cutters but not vice versa.  Also, most of the entries give surface speeds for two or more hardness ranges.  If you don't know the hardness, start with the speed for the hardest which will be the slowest.  If that works OK, try your next faster speed and so on until it doesn't work so well, and then slow back down a notch.

But don't get stuck on using the same RPM on all diameters of the same material just because its that material.  The best RPM for turning a 1/2" diameter steel rod will be much too fast for 2".


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## Chuck K (Jan 21, 2017)

The gib should be held parallel by the bolts.  It's been a while since I had one apart but I don't remember any spacers.  Guess I should scroll back and look at the parts breakdown. What model lathe is it?
Ok...I stand corrected. I see the spacers.


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## wa5cab (Jan 22, 2017)

Only on the front.


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## dbq49 (Feb 9, 2017)

Back to the oil.  Find an oil supplier, not auto but ISO 68.  It will be non-detergent.  It may be easier to go the  hardware store (Ace) and get a squeeze bottle of appliance oil.  It is also 20w.  The bottle will have an extension tube that pulls out to extend the reach.  It is NOT 3in1 oil.  A little not cost per qt. but readily available.  Mine lasts a year and a half.


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## wa5cab (Feb 10, 2017)

Actually, in Houston the only cans of oil actually marked SAE 20 are packaged by 3 in 1.    But you have to look carefully to spot the difference.  And it would be quite expensive if you use your equipment very much.


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