# I am going to start saving up for a very large PM mill



## erikmannie (Feb 15, 2020)

Like I have posted here, I have 6 machines (includes 4 welders), and the lathe was the last one that I bought. For some reason, the lathe is far and away my favorite machine. I really don't want to be on any other machines nowadays.

My PM-1030V is great, and it will serve for the 2-4 years that I need to save up. When I was at machining school, I spent a few days on an American Pacemaker; that machine is huge--I liked it! For that reason, I am going to dig deep intop my pocketbook and buy a very heavy lathe so that I can reap all the benefits of so much rigidity.

Here are some things that I would pay to have:
(1) not having to change any gears when I want to cut metric threads,
(2) Taiwanese PM offering,
(3) I can't get 3 Phase Power service at my home, but I am willing to get a VFD or the like,
(4) the larger the spindle bore, the better,
(5) factory installed 2 axis DRO,
(6) taper attachment,
(7) one shot lubrication,
(8) flood coolant system,
(9) LED light.

It looks like it will either be https://www.precisionmatthews.com/shop/pm-tlseries-ultra-precision-lathes/ or https://www.precisionmatthews.com/shop/pm-1440gt/

Another very important consideration for me is that I hope to have access to repair parts over the next several decades. I hope to use this machine for up to 30 years.

Finally, I had thought that I would give equal consideration to funding for both a larger lathe and mill. At this point, I don't feel the need for a larger mill (I have a PM-25MV).


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## erikmannie (Feb 15, 2020)

I see that a base model 1440GT is between $8,499 and $8,999, and a base model 1440TL is $13,799. It is stil not clear to me why going from a GT to a TL is $5,000, other than getting a larger spindle bore (2.55" versus 2") and the weight difference (3410 lbs. versus 1750 lbs,).


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## benmychree (Feb 15, 2020)

The American Pacemakers are a great machine, the shop that I apprenticed in had two, a 16" and a 26" from about 1956, very smooth running, high speeds, joystick speed change and sealed change box, hard ways, rapid travel.


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## erikmannie (Feb 15, 2020)

benmychree said:


> The American Pacemakers are a great machine, the shop that I apprenticed in had two, a 16" and a 26" from about 1956, very smooth running, high speeds, joystick speed change and sealed change box, hard ways, rapid travel.


Did they stay running all the time, and you would drop the engagement lever to get the chuck spinning? 

I was on a 16". The tailstock was so huge. What a pleasure to spend a day working on such a beast.


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## benmychree (Feb 15, 2020)

A beast perhaps, but a delicate sensitive beast at that; how about the amperage meter to show you how big of a cut can be made without overloading?


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## benmychree (Feb 15, 2020)

In my shop, I had it's ancestor, a 30" swing American High Duty lathe, the carriage was about 5 ft long, it came from a locomotive shop in the east, my friend who bought it in the 50s said they had 12 of them alike and nearly that many a size larger.


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## mksj (Feb 15, 2020)

erikmannie said:


> I see that a base model 1440GT is between $8,499 and $8,999, and a base model 1440TL is $13,799. It is still not clear to me why going from a GT to a TL is $5,000, other than getting a larger spindle bore (2.55" versus 2") and the weight difference (3410 lbs. versus 1750 lbs,).


I have worked on both of these lathes and a few others, there is no comparison. I also moved up from a 1340GT to an ERL-1340 which is a scaled down D1-4 chuck mount version of the RML/TL lathes, would have gone with the TL if I wasn't already tooled up for the smaller size/D1-4 chucks and could deal with the additional weight.  The TL is much better built and much heavier, having a cast iron base makes a significant difference with respect to rigidity/vibration.  The TL is more of a light industrial lathe as opposed to a hobbyist type, this model has been around for many years and I do not see parts being an issue. The 1640TL version gives you a bit more working envelope if you plan to do larger turning. These ERL/RML/TL have universal gearboxes, so no change gears unless you need to do DP threads.  The beds and carriage are significantly beefier as well as everything else on the machine and they are very quiet. . The chuck is a D1-6 mount, so about at the limit of what you can lift in a 8" chuck.


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## Aaron_W (Feb 15, 2020)

Erik, buying new has advantages, but talking about 2-4 years out you have plenty of time to become familiar with evaluating used lathes. You can save a significant amount of money on used, particularly large used machines. There is much less demand for the larger machines which keeps the relative price down.


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## Aukai (Feb 15, 2020)

Someone just had a video up last night on a big lathe that ran real well. I scout around so much, I don't remember who posted it.


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## shooter123456 (Feb 16, 2020)

erikmannie said:


> I see that a base model 1440GT is between $8,499 and $8,999, and a base model 1440TL is $13,799. It is stil not clear to me why going from a GT to a TL is $5,000, other than getting a larger spindle bore (2.55" versus 2") and the weight difference (3410 lbs. versus 1750 lbs,).


I was curious about that so I looked a little bit.

The 1440TL as you note is nearly double the weight, so part of the increase in price is coming from the extra iron and the extra cost in transporting it.  It also has a 5 HP motor vs the 1440 GT 2 HP motor (or optional 3 horse motor).  The larger spindle bore means a larger spindle so larger bearings, whos cost tends to go up exponentially as size increases.  An extra half inch could easily be a couple hundred extra.  

I also noted some of the standard accessories with the 1440TL are not standard with the 1440 GT.  This includes a 9" chuck and LED work light, which is easily another few hundred.

Other differences included the beefier tailstock on the 1440TL with the MT4 taper vs the MT3 on the 1440GT. It also may be thicker, but I can't find the quill diameter on the 1440GT.  Though the 1440TL does have 6" of travel vs the 4" of travel on the 1440GT. 

The 1440TL appears to have a full quick change gear box vs the 1440GT partial quick change, partial external change gear set up.  The 1440TL also has turcite on the carriage and a one shot lube pump and it does not appear the GT has either. 

I am sure there is more, but those differences alone can probably explain a solid chunk of the $5000 difference.  I say get the TL because it looks awesome and I really want one, but don't have an extra $15000 laying around like I am sure most people do


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## erikmannie (Feb 16, 2020)

shooter123456 said:


> I was curious about that so I looked a little bit.
> 
> The 1440TL as you note is nearly double the weight, so part of the increase in price is coming from the extra iron and the extra cost in transporting it.  It also has a 5 HP motor vs the 1440 GT 2 HP motor (or optional 3 horse motor).  The larger spindle bore means a larger spindle so larger bearings, whos cost tends to go up exponentially as size increases.  An extra half inch could easily be a couple hundred extra.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the comprehensive answer. I am willing to spend a few more years saving up to get a TL Series lathe. So far, I have nothing saved up.

Other than household bills, I don’t spend money on anything other than equipment, tuition & materials. I will get a pension, but I have NO 401k. My shop is my life; this works for me.


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## 7milesup (Feb 16, 2020)

Don't count on the pension.   Save in an IRA or other investment.  I flew with guys that had their pension dissolved when USAir went away.  It can happen.  

Now back to our regularly scheduled programming.


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## finsruskw (Feb 16, 2020)

7milesup said:


> Don't count on the pension.   Save in an IRA or other investment.  I flew with guys that had their pension dissolved when USAir went away.  It can happen.
> 
> Now back to our regularly scheduled programming.


I have lost 1/2 of my pension since retiring in 2012!
Teamsters is no guarantee either!!
Good luck!
Personally, that's a lot of scratch for something you can't even drive down the road!!


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## erikmannie (Feb 17, 2020)

finsruskw said:


> I have lost 1/2 of my pension since retiring in 2012!
> Teamsters is no guarantee either!!
> Good luck!
> Personally, that's a lot of scratch for something you can't even drive down the road!!



That is another way that I save money is by my wife and I sharing a single car. I haven’t owned my own car in 15 years, and I will never buy one.

Sorry that you lost half your pension.


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## erikmannie (Feb 23, 2020)

So that I can afford this, I switched jobs at my work. I am going from “No overtime” to “20 hours/week OT”, all for a huge lathe. It will probably be a PM-1660TL. It will definitely be a PM, due mostly to their stellar customer support.


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## Aukai (Feb 23, 2020)

That is an investment for sure.


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## Dhal22 (Feb 23, 2020)

As stated by others, used lathes can be a lot cheaper.  Here's a big one.    









						25 ft Monarch Lathe - heavy equipment - by owner - sale
					

Need to sell ASAP 25 FT (overall length is 32 ft with the head) 40 hp motor Includes: - 3 steady...



					atlanta.craigslist.org


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## erikmannie (Feb 23, 2020)

Dhal22 said:


> As stated by others, used lathes can be a lot cheaper.  Here's a big one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is a large steady rest!


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## Aukai (Feb 24, 2020)

I can't even spell big, BIG enough to say that's a big machine.


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## erikmannie (Feb 25, 2020)

So today I officially signed off on my 40 hour/week UPS job at the Oakland airport & now I will work at my old 60 hour/week job which is a UPS driver in Calistoga, CA.

I will have to say goodbye to about a dozen really nice coworkers in Oakland that I will probably never see again. All of this for the huge lathe.

Maybe this is too much info, but a coworker had loaned me $4K to buy my PM-1030V. When I paid him back recently, he said that I could borrow up to $10K at 10% simple interest anytime I wanted. I said yes! So I’m going to save up 10K as fast as I can, and my coworker is ready to go.


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## Firstgear (Feb 27, 2020)

7milesup said:


> Don't count on the pension.   Save in an IRA or other investment.  I flew with guys that had their pension dissolved when USAir went away.  It can happen.
> 
> Now back to our regularly scheduled programming.


While a pension might be reduced, it never goes away.  The federal government has a stop gap policy.

“The *Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation* (*PBGC*) is a United States federally chartered corporation created by the Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974 (ERISA) to encourage the continuation and maintenance of voluntary private defined benefit pension plans, provide timely and uninterrupted payment of pension benefits, and keep pension insurance premiums at the lowest level necessary to carry out its operations.[2] Subject to other statutory limitations, PBGC's single-employer insurance program pays pension benefits up to the maximum guaranteed benefit set by law to participants who retire at 65 ($67,295 a year as of 2018). The benefits payable to insured retirees who start their benefits at ages other than 65 or elect survivor coverage are adjusted to be equivalent in value.[3] The maximum monthly guarantee for the multiemployer program is far lower and more complicated ($12,870 a year as of 2017 for a participant with 30 years of credited service).[4]

In fiscal year 2018 PBGC added 58 more failed single-employer plans, bringing its inventory to 4,919 plans, and paid $5.8 billion in benefits to 861,000 retirees in those plans. That year, PBGC also paid $151 million in financial assistance to 81 multiemployer pension plans on behalf of 62,300 retirees. The agency has a total of $164 billion in obligations and $112 billion in assets for an overall deficit of $51 billion, an improvement of $25 billion since the prior year. The multiemployer program has a deficit of $53.9 billion and the single employer program a surplus of $2.4 billion.[5]”


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## erikmannie (Feb 27, 2020)

My wife is now onboard with this purchase and she will start putting money aside for a PM-1660TL. It will take us 18 months to save up. I have the PM-1030V to use while I’m waiting. I use it every day.

Update: I talked to my wife about this again today, and I can’t believe how supportive she is being about this. She is a full 100% onboard.

I emailed PM, and they say that they give a 2% discount for using a cashier’s check rather than a credit card. I also asked them if it was okay to put this machine on the concrete floor of a two car garage and they said that this is no problem.


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