# Time to add a mill.  Knee or vertical?



## RandyWilson (Mar 23, 2017)

I've been wanting a mill. I got a lathe 6 months ago, now I really want a mill. I have identified an operation in my home business that I could do with a mill that is currently costing me $150 per unit at the local machine works.  While that is so low volume that it will take many years to recoop the costs, it's enough rationalization; I'm gonna get me a mill.

 My work space is limited. With the work I want to do, and the space I have, I identified the RF-45 type machines as a good target.  But then I got a lead on a "used"  Taiwanese 8x30 knee mill somewhat local.  I got a look at it today. While it is 15 years old, they claim it has less than two hours runtime. And it looks it. The belts haven't even polished the paint off of the pulleys. The only mark I could find on the machine was a coffee cup ring on the table. The included tooling was in like new shape.

I am not looking for a Taiwan vs China discussion. Nor brand X vs brand Y. Or even Asian versus Merican iron. I've already read thousands of those posts. What I'm trying to decide is if the knee mill is worth the extra bucks. While I am a master at frugality, there is no equipment more expensive than that which won't do the intended job. What I can not find in all my searching is a good feel for the advantages and disadvantages of the two type of mills.

Reference machines,

http://www.grizzly.com/products/8-x-30-Vertical-Mill/G0730

http://www.machinetoolonline.com/PM-932M.html

 Target usage is modifying aluminum transmission cases, other one-off automotive doodads, and random home-hobby puttering.


Any thoughts?


 TiA

  Randy


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## Dave Paine (Mar 23, 2017)

I was also debating mill/drill with round column vs a knee mill.   The round column mill/drills came up more often on Craigs List.  A few weeks ago a Grizzly G1008 knee mill appeared on Craigs List.   Likely an older version of your G0730 link.

I was aware the mill/drill machines are not able to keep Z axis alignment when the head needs to move.

I am happy to have the G1008 knee mill.  I have only had this machine for a few weeks, but already have appreciated the Z axis staying in alignment when I have needed to move the table.  The spindle travel is 3 3/8in.  I am a hobbyist woodworker and recently metalworker.  I have used the G1008 to drill the holes in pepper mill blanks.  I need to drill an 8+ in deep hole.  I can do this on the wood lathe, but have experienced some drift in the hole.  I was able to drill on the G1008 to the depth of the Forstner bit, then lower the table so I could add an extension to the Forstner bit then continue the rest of the way.

This may not be your intended use of a knee mill, but I think you would prefer a machine to maintain Z axis with vertical movements rather than one which does not.


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## Bob Korves (Mar 23, 2017)

The Grizzly G0730 you linked to is fairly light for a knee mill.  You have not told us the real nature of the work you will be doing on your future machine.  Could you give us some better ideas of what you will be planning to use it for?  Modifying transmission cases can be a big job or a small and light job.  A lot of good work can be done on very light milling machines, but heavy cuts and large parts can be problems.  Even full size Bridgeport mills are considered to be "light" mills in industry, and sometimes derided as fancy drill presses.  We hobbyists know better, but you are thinking about commercial usage.


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## scwhite (Mar 23, 2017)

RandyWilson said:


> I've been wanting a mill. I got a lathe 6 months ago, now I really want a mill. I have identified an operation in my home business that I could do with a mill that is currently costing me $150 per unit at the local machine works.  While that is so low volume that it will take many years to recoop the costs, it's enough rationalization; I'm gonna get me a mill.
> 
> My work space is limited. With the work I want to do, and the space I have, I identified the RF-45 type machines as a good target.  But then I got a lead on a "used"  Taiwanese 8x30 knee mill somewhat local.  I got a look at it today. While it is 15 years old, they claim it has less than two hours runtime. And it looks it. The belts haven't even polished the paint off of the pulleys. The only mark I could find on the machine was a coffee cup ring on the table. The included tooling was in like new shape.
> 
> ...


It looks like to me the knee mill you will be able to tilt the head and swivel it . And move in and out on the ram making it more versatile. 
     Then the table mill . The head only move up and down and swivels 90 degrees


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## RandyWilson (Mar 23, 2017)

Thanks.

 I should have mentioned that I do have a fairly stout floor drill press, so a round column mill/drill is not in consideration. 

 This would not be a commercial production operation; maybe 10 units a year.The first order of business would be boring two `3/4" holes through a boss that can have placement tolerances of +/-  0.050. The only critical part would be cutting an internal retaining ring groove. Other than that one step, I could do it with the drill press. A hand drill, even. I can also foresee in the future reboring bearing pockets for pressed in repair sleeves. The question isn't whether I should get a clapped out monster BP. I am confident the RF45 will do what I need. The question is why the small knee mill would be worth the extra coin.


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## scwhite (Mar 23, 2017)

RandyWilson said:


> Thanks.
> 
> I should have mentioned that I do have a fairly stout floor drill press, so a round column mill/drill is not in consideration.
> 
> This would not be a commercial production operation; maybe 10 units a year.The first order of business would be boring two `3/4" holes through a boss that can have placement tolerances of +/-  0.050. The only critical part would be cutting an internal retaining ring groove. Other than that one step, I could do it with the drill press. A hand drill, even. I can also foresee in the future reboring bearing pockets for pressed in repair sleeves. The question isn't whether I should get a clapped out monster BP. I am confident the RF45 will do what I need. The question is why the small knee mill would be worth the extra coin.


 Versatility


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## john.oliver35 (Mar 23, 2017)

Working distance between the spindle and the table will likely be larger on any knee mill.  I have found that to be pretty handy on my Rockwell 21-100 to get work down out of the way of the head to take measurements etc..


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## darkzero (Mar 23, 2017)

I have a PM45M-PDF, the predecessor to the PM932. While I'm happy with it & haven't out grown it yet I've always wanted a full size BP style knee mill or even a 2/3 size. But I couldn't afford one at the time & I certainly don't have the room for one. I would have really liked a PM935 but they didn't come out yet when I bought my mill.

The RF45 style is ok for what I do but I would recommend a BP style knee mill if you can swing it & have the room. Hopefully someday I will have one but I'm not counting on it.


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## Redmech (Mar 23, 2017)

I had it in my head that the G0801 was a larger mill than something like the PM932 or the Grizzly variant the G0761.  So I a graph and where I could compare specs between the two mills.  The G0761 has quit a bit larger table, larger max distance spindle to table, more horsepower, comes with powerfeed, and  more.  You might do the same with mills that attract your attention.  Also the G0761 is cheaper than the G0801 and a lot cheaper than the G0730.  I still don't own a mill yet, but have been doing lots of research as you probably have.  Hope my notes make sense.




Untitled by redmech, on Flickr




Untitled by redmech, on Flickr


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## RandyWilson (Mar 24, 2017)

I'm not looking to compare the two specific machines. I am looking for comparisons of the two types, Knee mill vs dovetail column vertical mill.  I just don't see the big difference between moving the head up or the work down if they are both on dovetails. So far the only things I've found is a knee mill has gravity working for you rather than against when dealing with backlash but it is harder to install a DRO.  There has to be something else to justify the 50% higher price.


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## Glenn Brooks (Mar 24, 2017)

+1 to make sure you have enuf vertical travel todo the work you need to do. Some- maybe most knee mills have very limited vertical travel distance.

Don't buy a clapped out machine just because it is big.  Big and worn out won't make you any parts you would want to pass on to customers.

Glenn


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## Bob Korves (Mar 24, 2017)

RandyWilson said:


> There has to be something else to justify the 50% higher price.


With actual mills for sale, the difference is rigidity.  Not to say a moving head machine can't be rigid, just saying most as designed are not.


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## xplodee (Mar 24, 2017)

PM935 is a GREAT machine to look at. I love mine. This is assuming you want a new machine. If you are ok with old you have other options but honestly the PM935 is still better than any of those options aside from a BP (which you said you don't have room for).

To add to what was said above, the difference between the cheap import vertical milling machines and a knee mill (any type, import or domestic) is rigidity which is EVERYTHING on a machine tool whether it be a lathe or a mill. 

In my opinion, if you have the money and space for a knee mill, even a smaller one, buy that. That said I don't think that Grizzly 8x30 model you linked to is worth it, too lightweight for the money. For not much more you can get the PM935 which weighs 2000 lbs and has incredible features for its price.


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## darkzero (Mar 25, 2017)

RandyWilson said:


> I'm not looking to compare the two specific machines. I am looking for comparisons of the two types, Knee mill vs dovetail column vertical mill.  I just don't see the big difference between moving the head up or the work down if they are both on dovetails. So far the only things I've found is a knee mill has gravity working for you rather than against when dealing with backlash but it is harder to install a DRO.  There has to be something else to justify the 50% higher price.



I'll share my point of view & experience. As mentioned, rigidity is the main difference, & IMO it's a big difference. When I refer to a knee mill below, I'm talking about a BridgePort style mill & not a benchtop knee mill or a Clausing 8520 style knee mill.

Columns flex. Mill/drills don't have a means for adjusting nod, knee mills do. You have to shim the column when you have to adjust for nod. Knee mills have a worm drive. The column may sag over time from the weight of the head.

Difference in moving the head up & down on a column mill & the table on a knee mill is important if you have to plunge a cutter or drill. With a knee mill, you crank the table up taking up backlash on the screw. Knee mill also has a dial for the knee & the handle is in the front. On a column mill, if you lower the head, the weight of the head may not be enough to overcome backlash depending on the size of the mill/drill, it can hop when you first make contact with the cutter & workpiece. Many column mills don't have a dial for the head. Fine if you have a DRO but column mills usually have the Z handle somewhere on the column. Kind of awkward to turn the handle & watch the work piece or fight to look at the DRO if the DRO is not mounted on the same side of the mill as the handle.

Knee mills also have have a ram & turret. The ram allows the head to be advanced forward & back giving you additional Y travel. On a column mill the head is fixed. The ram is great if you don't have enough table Y travel to get the spindle where you need & can't mount a part on the table where you need. The turret allows you to rotate the entire head left & right (not talking about tilt), again allows you to position the spindle over areas that would be impossible to reach with a mill/drill. These features might not be used that often or imporant for small hobby guys but there were times I sure wish I had them.


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## 3strucking (Mar 25, 2017)

get a knee mill.


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## RandyWilson (Mar 25, 2017)

Thanks DZ, that's the type of generalized info I was looking for.  The issue is I can't put my hands on these mills easily. I'm making a multi-thousand dollar decision mostly blind. I did have access to a BP almost (groan) 20 years ago. But that experience was limited to not much more than being allowed to push the button and watch the bit go 'round. Never seen a dovetail column mill in person, and there are no local dealers.

 The PM935 looks like a dandy chunk. But alas it's twice the cost of the ones I'm considering. And the weight is getting well beyond my capacity to handle. I really don't want to have to hire a rigging company every time I need to move it.

 Thanks all!


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## 3strucking (Mar 25, 2017)

moving a 2000 lb mill is not bad. I can be accomplished by one person but having a second is better. My 12 y.o.a. Daughter helped me move my 645 Index when I got it.


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## alloy (Mar 25, 2017)

Another shop owner years ago I talked to when I was considering a small VMC told me you can put a small job on a big mill, but not a big job on a small mill.

He also said buy something you can grow in to and not out of.

So I bought a 4020  Fadal.  Less than 6 month later I got a job that required 37" of travel on X.  I ran that job for over 3 years. That job helped me build my business until it was sent to Mexico.

I also modify transmissions but from your description it's nothing like what you do.  I'm always looking for another product to add to my little business and having a big mill  allows me to have multiple setups on the table. (my manual is about 1-1/2 times the size of a Bridgeport) and I love it.  Very rigid, the table locks actually lock the table, 3HP controlled by VFD, DRO.   

Buy the biggest mill you can and at some point in the future you will be glad you did.


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## RandyWilson (Mar 25, 2017)

The wife helped me move the 2000lb South Bend lathe. I don't want another project, and I can't afford a divorce. So I'll stick to something I have a chance of moving myself.


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## RandyWilson (Mar 25, 2017)

alloy said:


> Buy the biggest mill you can and at some point in the future you will be glad you did.




That, sir, is sound advice. When my wife wanted a small embroidery machine to help with her business, I insisted we get a commercial grade monster rather than a consumer toy.  But at least I can move that one.


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## Tozguy (Mar 25, 2017)

Please let us know what you settle for and how you handled it. I'm in the same boat.


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## alloy (Mar 25, 2017)

I did have help moving my big manual mill, but I could have done it by myself.

A rental place near me has a hydraulic drop bed trailer.  The mill was loaded onto the trailer with a forklift, then we just dropped the trailer down and skidded it in using a come-a-long.  After I got it inside I put pipes under the Bridgeport and rolled it out of the way, and then used pipes again under the big mill to get it into place.  I used a pry bar to scoot the mill along.  I was sore from crawling around on the floor for most of a day, but it worked out well.


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## Silverbullet (Mar 25, 2017)

I agree get the knee mill. It's worth more to you then the rong 45 . The knee will give you better service then the mill drills out there. Another plus is it's made in Thailand , much better then China stuff. If you get operations where you need to change tooling , the knee will go up or down and stay on zero , with many of the others will not. But it's up to you , you live with what you buy good or bad.


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## 3strucking (Mar 25, 2017)

I used to buy items that I thought would be good enough but always ended up regretting it later. I no longer do that. If I don't have the money for what I want now, I save until I do. You have been given great advice by those with far more experience than I. It's up to you to decide to take it or not. You sound as if you have made up your mind on the mill/drill so I hope it works out for you. Not all full size knee mills are projects. My Index is older than me and I am sure my kids will be able to use it when they get grown. I have my doubts if that would be the case if I had purchased one of the mill/drills.


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## darkzero (Mar 25, 2017)

Silverbullet said:


> I agree get the knee mill. It's worth more to you then the rong 45. The knee will give you better service then the mill drills out there. Another plus is it's made in Thailand , much better then China stuff.



I didn't know Thailand made good mills?


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## 4GSR (Mar 25, 2017)

I remember dad telling us sons, "You see that? (mill-drill) Don't you ever think about buying one and dragging it home!  You and it won't have a home to come to if you do".  Well he's dead and gone now by twenty years.  But the statement kinda of stays with you.  No offence over them, they have their purpose with many people out there.  Especially those that don't have the space for a real Bridgeport style mill.


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## darkzero (Mar 25, 2017)

4gsr said:


> I remember dad telling us sons, "You see that? (mill-drill) Don't you ever think about buying one and dragging it home!  You and it won't have a home to come to if you do".  Well he's dead and gone now by twenty years.  But the statement kinda of stays with you.  No offence over them, they have their purpose with many people out there.  Especially those that don't have the space for a real Bridgeport style mill.



Haha! I'll be sure to tell my son (if I have one) something similar, "just cause daddy had one, don't you dare think about it".

As much as I have preached about knee mills here, I don't own one but I sure wish I did. My column mill is serving me well. I don't have a shop & I don't have the room for a BP. Hopefully one day I'll figure out a way. But in the meantime, better to have the mill that I have then no mill at all.


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## RandyWilson (Mar 26, 2017)

Since my current milling technique involves rotary burrs, a hand drill, and an underpowered Harbor Freight bench grinder, it's hard to go backwards. I spent last night looking at a bunch of different knee mills. Again let me state that I am not looking at a round column mill/drill, nor am I looking at that specific Grizzly knee mill. I am looking at a NOS knee mill that is very close in size, maybe identical, to that Grizzly. What I found that blipped the ironic meter was this knee mill has the best spindle to table clearance of all.  The work I have is 14" tall. Add tool changing room, and the 16 and 17 inch mills, some costing 4x as much, are going to be tight. This one is 20.

 Also remember that weight is an issue. So is space. Any mill is going to encroach on my lift bay. This is only a 20x25 shop that is to hold two cars and a lift. The SB lathe got most of the spare room.

One of the attractions of that NOS machine is it comes with a box full of cutting tools, collets, and assorted support fixtures. Like the machine itself, they are 15 years old but have 0 hours on them. 

Anyway, my final question. The machine does not appear to have reverse. How important is that? I was taught that you NEVER reverse a cutting bit or reamer in the bore  And power tapping scares me... we would use the mill to start the tap straight, but only a few threads. We would then finish tapping and extracting by hand. So am I missing something, or is reverse not all that critcal?


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## Silverbullet (Mar 26, 2017)

Do you need reverse to do what you need? Now most motors are made to be reversible in this type of applications. The switch and wire to motor may need to be changed to make it reverse. I have an enco I bought that's set up that way . But ill be setting it up with a new switch and wireing . I haven't even been well enough to even look at it . Does the mill look like this one.


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## RandyWilson (Mar 26, 2017)

Yeah, something very much like that.


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## Ken S (Mar 27, 2017)

For what it's worth, I have the smaller G0729 version of that mill. Here's the "for what it's worth" part. I had never touched a mill before I got it so my satisfaction level with it is probably be  much different than someone with a lot of experience. I bought the mill at a Grizzley tent sale for $750. It had been dropped or fell over but surprisingly, there was very little wrong with it and nothing serious. Once I took it apart, fixed the problems,cleaned it up, and adjusted it, I've been very happy with the purchase. It isn't something you would want for heavy work for sure but If you are working with aluminum, and don't mind taking your time, I think you'll be happy. I have to take very light cuts if working with steel, but I still get satisfactory results, for a greenhorn.


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## Silverbullet (Mar 27, 2017)

Check out , Doubleboost,, I think that's his YouTube channel . He has one and he's done a lot of up grades but he makes tons of items . With that little mill you can do just about anything you'll need I bet. If you need more mill then you go full size or go home. John added 9" to his mill with a spacer like the ones used on Bridgeports. He's milked every inch of travel out of it too. He's a bit hard to understand but he's good. Like I  tell others the machine is only as good as the man using it. It's still up to you what you want or need.


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## RandyWilson (Apr 3, 2017)

Still working on this, and time for a reality check.

 Say you found a J head series 1 Bridgeport on an internet auction site. No way to inspect it or ask the seller specific questions. The only info provided is four small poorly lit pictures and the serial number for the head. From inspecting the pictures as closely as you can, comparing to pictures of know machines, you note that many pieces are missing. The entire X-drive assembly from the right of the table. All electric switches. Most all  handles and knobs, including the knee crank and both quill handles. Hard to say, but the quill drive may be missing parts.

 No way to know the condition of the spindle, bearings, or ways.

 What would be your max bid?


Let me add that it's 200 miles away and must be picked up during normal business hours, would require renting a truck or trailer and taking a day off work.


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## markba633csi (Apr 3, 2017)

0 because it's probably so worn out they've been stealing parts off it for other machines.  But what do I know?  Sounds like a pig in a poke.
Mark S.


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## Jonathans (Apr 3, 2017)

I went from a gear head RF45 type mill to a Millrite due to rigidity issues.  The Millrite was great for a while until I wanted to tackle larger projects and I expanded my shop a bit.  The Millrite is sold.  The RF45 delegated to being a most excellent drill press, and a Series one Bridgeport V2xt being delivered soon.
Buy once. Cry once.


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## Bob Korves (Apr 3, 2017)

Randy, I understand quite well how it happens when you get the bug to buy a machine, and you want to do it NOW!  Take it from me, and from many others on this site, that being in a hurry to buy a used machine, in questionable condition, far away, and poorly represented, that you hope might be reasonable, is a big mistake.  Try to get out of your head, stand way back from yourself, and see the reality of your situation.  The best (and to me, the only) way to buy used machinery is when we can be relaxed, looking at the candidates like I am bored and yawning, knowing that there is a lot of crap out there that is not worth its weight in scrap metal, and that there are also sellers with GREAT STUFF FOR INSANELY LOW PRICES, just waiting for us to be the first to arrive and look at it, money in hand.  We go decades without even thinking about buying a particular kind of machine, and then we immediately. have. to. have. one. NOW!  Get yourself in the driver's seat, not just somebody along for the ride...  Sorry to be blunt, but that is how fabulous deals are made on great machines -- all in good time...


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## RandyWilson (Apr 3, 2017)

Mark, that's pretty much where I figured. Not much more than scrap price, plus maybe a few ebay-able items.  Thanks, from a former Shark owner.


Bob, please stop trying to second guess my intentions.  I ask questions to learn, not to justify past or future actions. I asked about pulleys to learn, not because I needed a lesson in 4th grade math.  I asked a leading question about these machines (yes, plural) not because I wanted to bid on them, but because I know how much others bid and what they went for. And my jaw is still on the floor.


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## ezduzit (Apr 3, 2017)

RandyWilson said:


> Still working on this, and time for a reality check.
> 
> Say you found a J head series 1 Bridgeport on an internet auction site. No way to inspect it or ask the seller specific questions. The only info provided is four small poorly lit pictures and the serial number for the head. From inspecting the pictures as closely as you can, comparing to pictures of know machines, you note that many pieces are missing. The entire X-drive assembly from the right of the table. All electric switches. Most all  handles and knobs, including the knee crank and both quill handles. Hard to say, but the quill drive may be missing parts.
> 
> ...



I would first get my head examined! 

There is no price at which I would be interested in such a machine.

Here's what I got for $2k. Not shown are several boxes of lathe tooling.


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## markba633csi (Apr 3, 2017)

Nice ez.  I'm going to try to identify:
Mill: Index of some kind?
Lathe: Powermatic 6500 series? 
probably wrong on both counts
Mark S.


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## ezduzit (Apr 3, 2017)

Mill--Index Super 55
Lathe--Logan 2557V (12" x 35")

They cleaned up pretty well. Motorcycle wheel cleaner works best on burned-on cutting oil and chips.


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## markba633csi (Apr 3, 2017)

Ah I wasn't too far off-
you stole them for 2k
MS


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## Bob Korves (Apr 3, 2017)

RandyWilson said:


> (snip)Bob, please stop trying to second guess my intentions.  I ask questions to learn, not to justify past or future actions. I asked about pulleys to learn, not because I needed a lesson in 4th grade math.  I asked a leading question about these machines (yes, plural) not because I wanted to bid on them, but because I know how much others bid and what they went for. And my jaw is still on the floor.


Your point is well taken, Randy, and I apologize for sounding like I was guessing your intentions.  MY intentions were (and are) to help you avoid making some of the same mistakes I have and many others have as well.  I certainly do not want to tell you what you should purchase.  Each of us will need to make his/her own decisions -- as it should be...


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## RandyWilson (Apr 3, 2017)

Bob, I'm sure you have plenty of experience to offer. I hope I did not hurt any feelings, but felt we needed to alter the course a bit before there were. 

 Here's the local situation. We have the worlds largest Naval complex just to the east. We have the only ship builder capable of making super carriers just to the north. And we have enough small ship yards and shops to support the industry.  The problem is these shops don't deal with penny-ante stuff. Want a bit of custom machining or prototyping? Maybe a motorcycle frame powdercoated?  Not going to happen locally. If you don't have a government or shipyard PO backing you up, they won't even talk to you. Like I said earlier in this thread, I'm paying $150 per unit to essentially drill two holes. He's the only one in town that would take on such a small job.

 There is no local surplus machine market. I have been watching and learning. A used ho-hum no frills no tooling BP? $3000 and sold in hours. A 40 year old Jet knee mill like the one that started this thread sold for almost $2000 in a day. And the two machines above? Decommissioned  Army surplus. The one that appeared someone had carved their initials in the table went for $1000. The other $1400. With about a dozen different bidder ID's involved.  It's friggin insane.

If I was in a need to have a Bridgeport in my shop in a month, the most economical way would be to buy from Lost Creek (or similar) and eat the grand in crating/freight/delivery fees. I'm not to that point yet. But I am watching what is happening, and questioning how much machine I need/want.  And questioning my grip on reality. Right now, honestly, I'm leaning towards that small knee mill. If something changes and I need a bigger machine, I'll deal with it then. Likely jumping straight to CNC.


 I do appreciate the answers.


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## ACHiPo (Apr 3, 2017)

ezduzit said:


> Mill--Index Super 55
> Lathe--Logan 2557V (12" x 35")
> 
> They cleaned up pretty well. Motorcycle wheel cleaner works best on burned-on cutting oil and chips.


Wow need to add motorcycle wheel cleaner to my shopping list!


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## ezduzit (Apr 3, 2017)

RandyWilson said:


> ... There is no local surplus machine market...It's friggin insane...



Keep in mind "If you believe you can't, you're right!"

Here in the Los Angeles area there is immense pressure for useful machines at hobbyist prices. I had searched hard for appropriate machines for many months before I found the pair I bought. Their owner had passed away some years prior, and his widow only offered them for sale when she was forced to tear down the un-permitted "garage" in which they were stored. I didn't screw around, but jumped on them right away, making a fair offer which was immediately accepted. And had them moved (~12 miles) right away by a professional machinery mover; this was a brilliant display of a pro working entirely alone. I learned a lot watching him.

Be patient. But also be prepared to search every day: craigslist, eBay, forums, etc. Be creative--your machine might be close by, just waiting for you to discover it. Have your finances instantly available so someone else doesn't beat you to it.

Good luck with your search.


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## Bob Korves (Apr 3, 2017)

RandyWilson said:


> (snip)I hope I did not hurt any feelings, but felt we needed to alter the course a bit before there were.(snip)


No hurt feelings, Randy, I have pretty thick skin.  I hope the same for you.


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## RandyWilson (Apr 4, 2017)

While this thread may give the impression otherwise, I've actually been searching for machine equipment for over a year; before my name was on the house deed. The South Bend made itself available back in July and I jumped.  Mills have been more elusive. This thread has helped give me research directions and prioritize what I want and don't want.


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## ACHiPo (Apr 4, 2017)

ezduzit said:


> Mill--Index Super 55
> Lathe--Logan 2557V (12" x 35")
> 
> They cleaned up pretty well. Motorcycle wheel cleaner works best on burned-on cutting oil and chips.


Is this the wheel cleaner you used?
http://www.s100.com/s100_wc.htm


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## ezduzit (Apr 4, 2017)

ACHiPo said:


> Is this the wheel cleaner you used?
> http://www.s100.com/s100_wc.htm



That's precisely what I used, after unsuccessfully trying numerous other cleaners and solvents. I didn't want to damage the original paint, even though that was nowhere near pristine, because I wanted to keep the machines in original condition as much as possible. And because I had no desire whatsoever to repaint them which, to me, greatly reduces their value.

I soaked the burned on cutting oil/metal chip combination and then used various methods of rubbing it off, including thin wooden sticks, which are similar to tongue depressors, but without the rounded ends; these are scrap/cutoffs from my wood shop that I recycle for stirring epoxy. Also various kitchen scrubbers and paper towels. Additionally I used denatured (not rubbing) alcohol on paper towels.

It is inevitable that some of these used machines will be found with this extremely tough and resistant coating of cutting oil and chips.


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## woodchucker (Apr 4, 2017)

darkzero said:


> I'm talking about a BridgePort style mill & not a benchtop knee mill or a Clausing 8520 style knee mill.



Ok Will, Explain the 8520 thinggy... I just bought one, because I wanted a Knee, and could not fit a BP. As a matter of fact, I can't fit the 8520 . I'm more than 1/2 through the refurb, the machine is being assembled, waiting on the bearings. 
What should I be aware of? I know it's not a full size mill, I know it's more stout than a most benchtops. It has a standard knee, which means I get to make depth adjustments based on the dial on the knee crank... So what is the NOT 8520 mean?
Inquiring minds want to know.


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## darkzero (Apr 4, 2017)

woochucker said:


> Ok Will, Explain the 8520 thinggy... I just bought one, because I wanted a Knee, and could not fit a BP. As a matter of fact, I can't fit the 8520 . I'm more than 1/2 through the refurb, the machine is being assembled, waiting on the bearings.
> What should I be aware of? I know it's not a full size mill, I know it's more stout than a most benchtops. It has a standard knee, which means I get to make depth adjustments based on the dial on the knee crank... So what is the NOT 8520 mean?
> Inquiring minds want to know.



Jeff, in regards to the 8520, nothing at all really. In that post I was trying to explain the differences between smaller benchtop mills & full size knee mills. Rather than saying a "_BP or full size knee mill_" every time I referenced to it I just wanted to simply say "_knee mill_". To avoid any confusion, that's why I stated "_When I refer to a knee mill below, I'm talking about a BridgePort style mill & not a benchtop knee mill or a Clausing 8520 style knee mill._"

That's all, nothing more. Congrats on the new mill!


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## woodchucker (Apr 4, 2017)

Ok, cool. I was worried I didn't account for something. I know I gave up a tilting head (yes it tilts left and right) but not up and down...
But I was able to dismantle it and take it a piece at a time down the stairs to the basement... with one minor mishap, when the base cabinet went through the wall down the stairs   Oh boy.


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## woodchucker (Apr 4, 2017)

ezduzit said:


> I would first get my head examined!
> 
> There is no price at which I would be interested in such a machine.
> 
> Here's what I got for $2k. Not shown are several boxes of lathe tooling.



Nice score, and a good price too.   Please tell me you didn't bend your lead screw with those straps... I hope you had a piece of wood under it extending out.


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## ezduzit (Apr 4, 2017)

wc--that is the professional mover and, no, the lead screw was not bent.

I have posted this elsewhere, but here is my first part I ever made on a milling machine (a couple years ago). It is an aluminum end fitting, of my own design, for a 4" sailboat boom. Plastic sheaves were purchased. The stainless axle I made on the lathe; its end cap sits in a milled recess to prevent rotation.


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## Bob Korves (Apr 4, 2017)

woochucker said:


> Ok, cool. I was worried I didn't account for something. I know I gave up a tilting head (yes it tilts left and right) but not up and down...
> But I was able to dismantle it and take it a piece at a time down the stairs to the basement... with one minor mishap, when the base cabinet went through the wall down the stairs   Oh boy.


Jeff, look at these photos of big boy vertical milling machines:
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=k&t+vertical+mill&qpvt=k&t+vertical+mill&qpvt=k&t+vertical+mill&qpvt=k&t+vertical+mill&FORM=IGRE
and notice what they all have in common -- no nodding head function!  I am not sure if Bridgeport was the first company to add a nodding function to their vertical mills, but they sure did popularize it.  It has become a "must have" on a vertical mill for a lot of buyers.

I have had two Millrite mills, a little bigger than your 8520 but smaller than a BP.  The first one had a nodding head, my current one does not.  I never used the nodding function on my first Millrite except to tram it.  I have never wished for the nodding function on my current Millrite, which is a heck of a lot more rigid than the first one, though part of that may be due to it being in much better condition.

There is nearly always multiple possible ways to mount a part for an angle cut, even for a compound angle cut.  I think that many BP and clone users will admit to not using the nodding function to set up compound angle parts sometimes, simply because of the extra time and effort to set it up and then tram it back square to the table again.  Of course, depending on the type of work each of us does, the ability to nod the head could end up being more or less desirable.  In my mind, I try to best solve for the work I do 99 percent of the time, and ignore the 1 percent, which I can deal with in other ways or design around it.  My approach to many things in life is "No last 1% solutions!"

Edit: Cincinnati, too, except on their 'light' machines.
https://www.bing.com/images/search?...+mill&qpvt=cincinnati+vertical+mill&FORM=IGRE


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## woodchucker (Apr 4, 2017)

Bob Korves said:


> Jeff, look at these photos of big boy vertical milling machines:
> https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=k&t+vertical+mill&qpvt=k&t+vertical+mill&qpvt=k&t+vertical+mill&qpvt=k&t+vertical+mill&FORM=IGRE
> and notice what they all have in common -- no nodding head function!  I am not sure if Bridgeport was the first company to add a nodding function to their vertical mills, but they sure did popularize it.  It has become a "must have" on a vertical mill for a lot of buyers.
> 
> ...



Yea, I get what your saying. And for me it was just recognizing that I will have to do some things in a different way.
And will I miss it, yea, when I am lazy and scratching for a way to do it and not make a bunch of jigs to get around it.
But given the choices I had, I am good with it. Can't wait to make some chips. There are some things I would like to make to solve some issues.
And once I get this up and running, my South Bend Milling attachment will be up for sale. (So I'm coming from that to this and know it's going to be way better).


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## woodchucker (Apr 4, 2017)

ezduzit said:


> wc--that is the professional mover and, no, the lead screw was not bent.
> 
> I have posted this elsewhere, but here is my first part I ever made on a milling machine (a couple years ago). It is an aluminum end fitting, of my own design, for a 4" sailboat boom. Plastic sheaves were purchased. The stainless axle I made on the lathe; its end cap sits in a milled recess to prevent rotation.



Nice work I'm sure you'll enjoy making more parts.. Glad to hear that the screw was not bent..


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## markba633csi (Apr 6, 2017)

EZ: What is that red nameplate on your Logan's gearcover? It looks like an H inside a heart- is that the name of a machinery dealer? 
Mark S.


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## ezduzit (Apr 6, 2017)

MS--exactly. Oddly, both the mill and lathe had nameplates from the same dealer.

This photo was taken before the cleanup.


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## markba633csi (Apr 6, 2017)

Aha. Kinda presumptuous of them  to "tattoo" your machines like that.  They sure didn't build 'em.  Couldn't they have just used a sticker? LOL
MS


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## Bob Korves (Apr 6, 2017)

markba633csi said:


> Aha. Kinda presumptuous of them  to "tattoo" your machines like that.  They sure didn't build 'em.  Couldn't they have just used a sticker? LOL
> MS


Nearly free advertising...


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## markba633csi (Apr 6, 2017)

LOL.... turkeys
MS


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## ezduzit (Apr 6, 2017)

At $2k for both machines the dealer badges don't bother me at all. Actually I think the fact that both machines originally came from the same dealer add je ne sais quoi.  

I used the lathe today to ream an adapter I made to install 2" and 4" travel dial indicators for lathe carriage travel measurement. Also to polish some rust off a couple parts for my "new" mortising machine.


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## RandyWilson (Apr 24, 2017)

Well, the search has ended. Now to figure out what I have done. Hopefully I will be able to drag it home next weekend.


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## john.oliver35 (Apr 24, 2017)

You can't get away that easy - What did you buy??


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## RandyWilson (Apr 25, 2017)

I was planning on posting pictures when I had it in my driveway. The pics in the ad are not very good.

I broke every bit of advise I gave myself save one; Don't buy too small. I had resigned myself to a Bridgeport-esque machine, and was just going to have to deal with a one ton space hog. The problem, here anyway, is having "Bridgeport" cast in the side adds $1000 above what it's worth. I watched scrap iron grade machines sell for $1400 and untooled 1Js @ $3500. I was just about to pull the trigger on trucking one in from the rustbelt, was down to figuring the local moving logistics. Saturday morning, bored at work trolling the web, a machine appeared on Craigslist. I researched it for about half an hour, called the seller, grabbed my stash-o-cash, and done bought it.   

 Cincinnati Toolmaster 1B. Came with a vise, starter set of tooling, and a RPC.  Hopefully it will stop raining by the weekend and we can go trailer it home. I'm still scheming on the last twenty feet of the move.









 And yes, I was well aware of the Monoset collet situation before I bought it.


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