Wow, so much information, you are incredible

[Sophus]

I wanted to say thank you to all of you who give so much time and effort to help out those of is with questions. There is just so much to absorb here, and it is in depth and overwhelming.

I am eager to dip my toe into machining, having been an avid hobbyist woodworker on and off for about a few decades. I have been scouring the usual sites looking for some used machines, and even looked at a few used machines in person and realized that I would very likely want to go with something newer with parts support and an active community. Which brings me to very likely going with a Precision Matthews mill and lathe.

I am still trying to narrow down the specific machines

Mill 833TV vs 935TV
Lathe 1130V vs 1236T vs 1340GT

Having known myself all of my life, I tend to outgrow my tools pretty quickly, as I get more ambitious, enthusiastic, grow my skills, and tackle bigger things. So I either get the upper middle entry level version and wish I had the more capable version, up until I sell the first one and finally go with the second choice, or I just buy the big one first. (I don't know if I have ever actually bought the big one first)

I only have a single 20 amp 220v outlet in my shop (which is technically our master bedroom in our garden level condo (yeah, my wife is pretty cool)

I have maybe gotten a little paranoid reading the issues with single phase motors leaving a sketchy surface finish that i have been diving head first into the VFD/RPC/DPC discussions throughout this forum.

It seems like the easiest solution was to go with a Phase Perfect, but I wasn't sure how you wire two machines into a single DPC. It also looks like the Phase Perfect recommendation is a 30 amp breaker. As well as their comparison sheet stating that the Simple version doesn't support 'Regenerative loads, such as motors with electronic brakes like lathes'

I think from everything I have found so far, Mark Jacobs has published some schematics for the vfd solutions, but it still is a diy solution where you source everything yourself and there are no 'starter kits' available for purchase.

Whew, I am one confused puppy here.

The projects I have in mind to start are as basic as lightsaber hilts for my Star Wars obsessed horde of nieces and nephews, and some non-functional art pieces resembling small robots.

In closing, you are all pretty incredible. May you all be well.

-Mark W

 

[brino]

@Sophus

Hi Mark,

Personally I do have a small VFD on one small motor, but have never experienced a rotary phase converter, digital phase converter, or static phase convert. So I do NOT believe that I have much to offer you.

However, I am sure other people "in the know" will be by to help you out.

Welcome to the group!

Brian

 

[benmychree]

VFD may be best for you, RPCs are noisy at best, perhaps not so good for a condo situation, static converters are not so good at delivering rated horsepower. I am not much familiar with digital, may be worth a look.

 

[davidpbest]

Greetings Mark,

Like you, I've been a woodworker all my life and moderate a large user forum for Felder (European equipment) users. I put my toe into the metal working pool about 20 years ago, started with a junky Grizzly mini lathe that ultimately went to the land fill, and graduated up from there to an Emco Maximat 10V (Swiss) precision tool room lathe with milling attachment (see photo attached), then added a Rong Fu 45 square column mill a year later which served me VERY well. I operated with those machines for about 10 years, then decided to move up again and bought a PM-1340GT lathe, customized that, and then a PM-935TS mill. Mark Jacobs built the VFD controls for both to my specifications. Although I still lust for a Deckel FP-2 mill, I'm pretty content with what I've ended up with. But as you can see, I didn't follow my own rule of "cry once." I have done a lot of enhancements to both PM machines. The links below give you a brief overview of each:

PM935 - the Best & Jacobs Full Custom Edition

It’s been almost a year since I received my PM935 mill, and I thought it was finally time post here about the process of upgrading and accessorizing the machine. Some of you may recall that I embarked on a similar project with my PM1340GT lathe a few years back, and documented here. The mill...

www.hobby-machinist.com

PM1340 - the Best & Jacobs Full Custom Edition

It’s been several months since I took delivery of, and posted about my PM1340 lathe. It's time for an update since I’m nearing completion of what started as a straight forward VFD conversion project, and then took on a life of it’s own and led to a substantial customization of the stock PM1340...

www.hobby-machinist.com

I'm attaching some documents you might find useful in your deliberations. Note especially the write-up on benchtop versus compact knee mill. DM me if you have specific questions or want to dialog about the trede-offs between the 833TV and the 935. The 935 is a very capable mill for its size. I'm grateful I have a VFD for speed control and have never once had to change belt positions. If you go that route, see if Mark will build you a VFD control system for it, or DIY - it doesn't have to be complicated of fancy.

The PM-1340 is a terrific small lathe and I'm delighted with its performance after I replaced the compound with a solid tool post to improve rigidity. If I were buying today and had limited budget, I'd be focused on a Taiwanese machine like the 1236T or 1340. Putting a VFD on either of those machines is a bit more complicated, but the variable speed is a godsend IMO.

All my woodworking equipment is 3-phase running off a 10HP Phase Perfect. Shop tour is here. You can see how I have my shop wired looking at the attached drawing. That said, for the machines you're looking at you'd want at least a 3HP PP unit like this. That unit will operate on a 20A 220VAC circuit, the larger 5HP unit will not. In my experience Phase Perfect significantly under rates their equipment (my 10HP unit will power my 10HP Planer under full load in conjunction with a 5.5HP dust extractor with headroom to spare for the sliding table saw).

And don't forget - the machines are just the beginning of the investment - see attached.

Welcome to the group.

 

[woodchucker]

my advice is to get a used machine and learn. If you crash it, you won't feel as bad as with a new machine. Once you get your feet wet and make your mistakes, you will have enough knowledge to know which PM machine you want.
That's just my opinion.

 

[B2]

Hi Mark,

Mill 833TV vs 935TV
Lathe 1130V vs 1236T vs 1340GT

Definitely spend the money to get machines made in Taiwan. Since the description on PM does not explicitly say that the 1130V is from Taiwan it probably is not. I did not check all of the other machines, but I think the 1236T is just a smaller version of the 1340GT and lots of folks seem to be happy/content with it. Clearly, the 935 is a bigger and better mill.... if you have room. Note the head room needed on any mill. Also, width, I had to take the x-axis table off of my mill to get it through the door.

I only have a single 20 amp 220v outlet in my shop (which is technically our master bedroom in our garden level condo (yeah, my wife is pretty cool)

Wow! Your wife must be really cool to let you run the machines while she is trying to sleep!

Normally 20amp/220V would not run a 3hp motor at capacity, but the 3hp motor will not know that you do not have enough current until it needs it... for that big cutting load. Unless you are making something that really requires the power available for a 3hp motor it will not know. Start up is the issue. Most induction motors draw extra current when first starting up if there is a load. Once at up and running the current require drops way back. If this is not the case at the start up, just do not load your machines down and it should work. However, at some point you will want to run a bigger wire. 20Amp/220V single phase is usually a 12 gauge wire (Romex 12-3+ground). What you need is 10 gauge wire and a 30Amp/220V breaker ( 10-3+ground). You may want to check the gauge of the wire you have at the breaker box and at the outlet to be sure as to what you have. It would be very unusual for a 20Amp outlet to have 10 gauge wire running to it, but then it is unusual to have 220V in a bed room? If you are really stuck with the wiring to the room, there are several ways to "safely" cheat to get the current up, but code is a different issue. How hard is it to get a new wire from the breaker box to the room?

Lots of folks have done the VFD conversions and Mark Jacobs has help a lot of folks with this. Sometimes he builds conversions for folks, but I think mostly the more complex version. If all you want it to do is convert single phase 220 to three phase 220 it is pretty straight forward and most 3HP VFDs will work for the 3HP mills that you are looking at. If you want to utilize the many possible control features that apply to the Lathes (e-brake, proximity sensor, jog, etc) then get the more expensive VFD that has the features. Hardly any of these features are needed on a Mill, but are nice to have on a lathe. I put the Hitachi model WJ200-022SF, 2.2KWatt (3HP) on my 3HP PM1440GT and have been happy with it. My write up (Part II) is here and is probably more than you want to bite off at the beginning, but then so are most of the VFD conversions for lathes with extra features.

VFD conversion using solid state electronic components.

By the way, if you are planning on trying to run both machines off of a single VFD then you will not use all of the extras anyway as doing so would make for too much complexity in the wiring etc. Then about all the VFD buys you is variable speed, reversing direction and of course running 3Ph motors.

Good luck in your decision process.

Dave L.

 

[rogerl]

Mark:
First, welcome to the group. There is LOTS of great information here. You say that the tools are going into the master bedroom of your garden level condo. Do you have a good path to get the equipment into the bedroom? These machines are VERY heavy. I used an engine lift to finally position my 935TS in my shop. The late is going to take similar equipment to move. Do you have a cement floor for the machines? Hopefully there is no carpeting in the room.
If you are just starting out my suggestion would be to buy your machines used and find out what you like and dislike about them then if you out grow them buy something new that is exactly what you want. I had an Enco round column mill for many years. I decided to upgrade to a knee mill so I bought the PM 935 TS mill. It is a great mill but way more than a beginner needs. Start small and work your way up to the bigger equipment. If you buy good used equipment you will not lose much money if you sell it and buy a bigger piece of equipment.

Just my 2 cents
Roger L

 

[Sophus]

Thanks everyone for your comments so far.

@davidpbest - I actually downloaded two of your pdf's earlier today and read the bench vs knee mill commentary twice, and have been digesting your getting started tools list, as well as your review of the PM935. Your write ups, your modifications, and work are really inspiring.

----

@B2
I had 220 installed by an electrician when I got my table saw and band saw. The electrician didn't run 10 gauge at the time. We only have 80 amp service to our unit, and that was upgraded from 50 when I had the 220 line run. A downstairs panel was added at that time is shared with our washer and dryer, so the electrician wasn't willing to put a 30 amp outlet in the shop and the 30 amp one needed for the dryer, and at the time I only needed the 20 for the saws. Our house was built in 1895.

I wasn't planning to run both machines off a single VFD, and I think I would like those extra features on an individual machine, especially if there is added safety with a e-brake and proximity sensor.

@rogerl
I am pretty lucky that the position of my shop/"master bedroom" has direct access to the driveway, with just two steps down from the driveway level to the shop, thru a 29 inch door. The driveway is a bit messed up from the huge oak tree growing there, so I think I will need to put plywood down to have a chance of rolling a pallet jack it to the door. The shop floor is a floating engineered wood floor, on top of plywood, on top of cement.

As far as sound levels -
I am also lucky that the floor above my shop is our living room, and above that is our upstairs neighbor, and I am fortunate that no noise makes it up to his unit, and I often make things for him, having just recently finished a custom bookcase for just the cost of the wood. I sometimes run my cnc (wood router) for really long durations and they can't hear it upstairs at all.

Used machines,
I have been keeping a close eye on Ebay, CL and FBM, and probably have every lathe and mill currently listed on those sites committed to memory. I haven't found the right machines yet that look in good shape and have some of the safety features a modern machine has.

Again, thanks so much for all your help and comments, what a great forum.

 

[skcncx]

Used machines,
I have been keeping a close eye on Ebay, CL and FBM, and probably have every lathe and mill currently listed on those sites committed to memory. I haven't found the right machines yet that look in good shape and have some of the safety features a modern machine has.

I looked for used on CL and FBM, but it's a real gamble on timing, good things do come, but you don't know if it's next week, month or next year. 2 months after I ordered by 1340 GT a really nice Logan lathe with QCGB for a fraction of the cost came up 3 miles from me... oh well! I'm still waiting for my 1340 GT, ordered last November, hope to get it this summer.... so you may have long lead times. Still very glad to get something new and plan to put a VFD on it... I'll at least try.

While I wait, I got the 833TV, considered the Taiwan 728VT but am VERY glad I went the 833TV. It's my first, setting it up now, but so far I'm very glad I have the few extra inches of travel and z height capacity.... it goes fast with any given setup/material.

Someone said to think about tooling costs... and you will feel that fast, well, If you go the route I am and ordering all the stuff you think you'll want/need in a short time frame. I have surpassed the base 833 TV cost in tooling, vises, DRO, rotary table, end mill and trying out the easy change holder system and my stand. One plus if your shop space is limited, you can put it on a stand with storage for tooling below.

All in all, it's been a lot of fun projects and workshop time just setting all my new toys up.

 

[Provincial]

Another advantage to VFD's is that they can be programmed to slowly ramp up the speed of the motor when starting. This effectively reduces the inrush current during start-up, which is a huge advantage when using a marginal electrical supply source.