- Joined
- Dec 29, 2012
- Messages
- 239
lets not forget cubits, hectars, and henways
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who has gone metric?
- Thread starter MCRIPPPer
- Start date
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2013
- Messages
- 764
And then there is the Murphy's Law example; "data will always be presented in the least convertible form such as 'furlongs per fortnight' "
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2012
- Messages
- 630
I go either way. I don't like machining in mm though as the units are not that useful of a size. 100ths of a mm are too fine and 10ths are too coarse for my taste.
Now for the rants:
It is easy to poke fun at the origins of English/Imperial/whatever units but all measurements are arbitrary units. The meter was defined as the distance between two marks on a bar sitting in France. Only later did they move to different calibration to deal with thermal expansion and oxidation of the bar and to make creation of duplicate standards easier. As to the magical relation of the units to another (weight, length, and volume), it is meaningless. For instance, the coincidence of water at 0 degrees for cubic centimeter to the length of a centimeter and the gram is just a ridiculous rationalization to make it seem "scientific". It wouldn't have made diddly squat difference if they had chosen another relationship.
The fact is that unit conversions are not often that useful. You measure in reasonable units for a task and significant digits. You don't give your height in kilometers. You don't fill up your car in milliliters. You don't buy land in square millimeters.
Then the metrification (is that a word yet? If not, I claim it's creation) of things just for the sake of lip service is silly. Bikes tubing is done in metric measurements but they are still 1 in, 1-1/8 and 1-1/4 in tubing as an example. My 355ml soft drink can is still 12oz. You still buy a quart of oil even if it says 0.943 ml on the can.
Then you get to the availability of metric items. Go to Home Depot and check the price difference for metric fasteners (if they even have any.) Forget about drill bits.
Now for the rants:
It is easy to poke fun at the origins of English/Imperial/whatever units but all measurements are arbitrary units. The meter was defined as the distance between two marks on a bar sitting in France. Only later did they move to different calibration to deal with thermal expansion and oxidation of the bar and to make creation of duplicate standards easier. As to the magical relation of the units to another (weight, length, and volume), it is meaningless. For instance, the coincidence of water at 0 degrees for cubic centimeter to the length of a centimeter and the gram is just a ridiculous rationalization to make it seem "scientific". It wouldn't have made diddly squat difference if they had chosen another relationship.
The fact is that unit conversions are not often that useful. You measure in reasonable units for a task and significant digits. You don't give your height in kilometers. You don't fill up your car in milliliters. You don't buy land in square millimeters.
Then the metrification (is that a word yet? If not, I claim it's creation) of things just for the sake of lip service is silly. Bikes tubing is done in metric measurements but they are still 1 in, 1-1/8 and 1-1/4 in tubing as an example. My 355ml soft drink can is still 12oz. You still buy a quart of oil even if it says 0.943 ml on the can.
Then you get to the availability of metric items. Go to Home Depot and check the price difference for metric fasteners (if they even have any.) Forget about drill bits.
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2013
- Messages
- 3,627
i need to have both types of measurement and use whatever is necessary for the task.
over the years i have used metric bolts to replace uss and sae bolts where a blind hole was stripped out of the casting/part.
a M4 is your friend when you have a stripped out 10-32, a 10-32 when you need to repair a M3
a M7 works well if a 1/4-20 gets fouled up, a 1/4-20 to repair an M5
a M10 will work for a 3/8-16 gone bad, a 3/8-16 will take care of an M8 or a 5/16-18 that have been stripped out
i have used heli coils, but i use then only as a last resort.
I like Keen-serts the best, but unfortunately you need a lot of surrounding material to install the insert.
if it absolutely,positively,has to work right now, i'll drill,tap and GO!!
Most of the machines i work on are made in Europe, I've had to become very comfortable with metric measurements and fasteners
over the years i have used metric bolts to replace uss and sae bolts where a blind hole was stripped out of the casting/part.
a M4 is your friend when you have a stripped out 10-32, a 10-32 when you need to repair a M3
a M7 works well if a 1/4-20 gets fouled up, a 1/4-20 to repair an M5
a M10 will work for a 3/8-16 gone bad, a 3/8-16 will take care of an M8 or a 5/16-18 that have been stripped out
i have used heli coils, but i use then only as a last resort.
I like Keen-serts the best, but unfortunately you need a lot of surrounding material to install the insert.
if it absolutely,positively,has to work right now, i'll drill,tap and GO!!
Most of the machines i work on are made in Europe, I've had to become very comfortable with metric measurements and fasteners
Last edited:
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2014
- Messages
- 36
I gone through both an auto tech class and a machining class and I was taught the two measurement systems were called Standard (ie. inch, gallon, pound) and Metric. I just loved it when a domestic auto used both metric and standard bolts on the same engine.:angry:
If you really think about it, both systems are just arbitrary.That's how all measurement systems are, just someone saying "it should be this because ...". I just prefer Standard in the sense that it can convert 3rds better than a base ten system. Like a 3rd of a foot is 4 inches or 2/3's of a yard is 2 feet. Also the 10 system works just as well in Standard.
If you really think about it, both systems are just arbitrary.That's how all measurement systems are, just someone saying "it should be this because ...". I just prefer Standard in the sense that it can convert 3rds better than a base ten system. Like a 3rd of a foot is 4 inches or 2/3's of a yard is 2 feet. Also the 10 system works just as well in Standard.
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2014
- Messages
- 634
The base ten system makes a lot more sense.
I've still not used metrics enough to be comfortable with it.
Have had to determine different threads that were metric and turn new ones. Even some that weren't standard ( China Valves ).
Worked on a Westinghouse turbine built by Mitubishi and had no metric mic's. Had to convert everything.
When the turbine didn't match the prints the Mitubishi rep said " Ah, We make improoments!"
I've still not used metrics enough to be comfortable with it.
Have had to determine different threads that were metric and turn new ones. Even some that weren't standard ( China Valves ).
Worked on a Westinghouse turbine built by Mitubishi and had no metric mic's. Had to convert everything.
When the turbine didn't match the prints the Mitubishi rep said " Ah, We make improoments!"
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2012
- Messages
- 745
The "metrication" is a two-face issue.
Who commonly use metric system (roughly the 3/4 of the world) generally try to avoid tools and fixtures requiring a supplemental set of "exotic" screws, wrenches, etc., just like U.S. machinists generally don't have metric wrenches (¹).
Some time ago I looked for a spring plunger with a cylindrical nose. I found the perfect one in the States, but it was 1/4-20, requiring a 1/4-20 tap, an appropriate drill bit and a non-metric Allen key. Instead of buying all those things I gave up and used a different solution.
Very often it's even impossible to merge the two worlds: if I have a tooling plate with holes every 50mm hardly I can screw a Kurt vise on it, thus I don't buy a Kurt but I look for other "metric" brands. (²)
And I restrain from speaking of 110V/240V power tools and main plugs… (³)
This double standard means a severe limitation to the U.S. export which, seen in a wide domino-effect, has a great influence on workplaces, economy, etc.
I think a "metrication" of some products will give a nudge to the U.S. industry increasing the number of potential customers, even if it will make things a bit harder for home shop machinists.
Marco
----
¹ A good reason to visit Europe: here metric wrenches and tools are a lot less expensive, and if you buy them during your holidays you can save on shipping… The best souvenir I brought back from the U.S. was a bag of 1/4-20 screws.
² At least Kurt has "hybrid" vises, with metric screws but holes spaced in inches. They are in the German literature.
³ Planning to travel abroad? Check https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power_plugs_and_sockets before!
Who commonly use metric system (roughly the 3/4 of the world) generally try to avoid tools and fixtures requiring a supplemental set of "exotic" screws, wrenches, etc., just like U.S. machinists generally don't have metric wrenches (¹).
Some time ago I looked for a spring plunger with a cylindrical nose. I found the perfect one in the States, but it was 1/4-20, requiring a 1/4-20 tap, an appropriate drill bit and a non-metric Allen key. Instead of buying all those things I gave up and used a different solution.
Very often it's even impossible to merge the two worlds: if I have a tooling plate with holes every 50mm hardly I can screw a Kurt vise on it, thus I don't buy a Kurt but I look for other "metric" brands. (²)
And I restrain from speaking of 110V/240V power tools and main plugs… (³)
This double standard means a severe limitation to the U.S. export which, seen in a wide domino-effect, has a great influence on workplaces, economy, etc.
I think a "metrication" of some products will give a nudge to the U.S. industry increasing the number of potential customers, even if it will make things a bit harder for home shop machinists.
Marco
----
¹ A good reason to visit Europe: here metric wrenches and tools are a lot less expensive, and if you buy them during your holidays you can save on shipping… The best souvenir I brought back from the U.S. was a bag of 1/4-20 screws.
² At least Kurt has "hybrid" vises, with metric screws but holes spaced in inches. They are in the German literature.
³ Planning to travel abroad? Check https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power_plugs_and_sockets before!
- Joined
- Dec 8, 2013
- Messages
- 2,651
I don't find metric stuff difficult to come by. Metric tools are widely available because of the cars and even the coop store in the village here has a modest selection of metric fasteners.
It is my lifelong dream to see that stupid metric system abolished in the U.S. and have everyone go back to using fractions and decimals as God intended, oh wait, how many inches are in a cubit? Crap, so much for my master plan! :roflmao: