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What indicators are needed for scraping?

Discussion in 'MACHINE RESTORATION & WAY SCRAPING' started by expressline99, Jun 27, 2017.

  1. expressline99

    expressline99 H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    OK guys what types of dial indicators and or gauges will be absolutely needed to measure for my lathe scraping surfaces. The ways and dovetails etc. I've got a flexible dial indicator stand on the way. It's not a NOGA...I didn't get on that train yet.



    Paul
     
  2. Uglydog

    Uglydog United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Have you picked up a copy of Connelys scraping book, and Schlesinger or Burley?
    Machine tool geometry is a puzzle. And great fun. (on edit: huge heaps of great fun...)
    Albeit lots of work both mentally and physically.
    I believe you will find free digital copies of the above texts here at HM. Although my preference is hard copy.
    Worth reading before you start spending cash.
    Investment in quantitative assessment tools is endless, and expensive.
    However, qualitative assessments might very likely be enough to meet the tolerance that most of us need.
    Please note that I have a history of driving myself nuts trying to make a clapped out mill into a jig bore.

    Daryl
    MN
     
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  3. woochucker

    woochucker United States Active Member Active Member

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    Scraping is not done with an indicator.
    It is done with a reference surface and a indicator applied to the surface.
     
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  4. 4gsr

    4gsr Global Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    A depth mic is good for checking for amount of wear from a reference surface. As for dial indicators, they are not much use for use during scraping and fitting process. All the indicator is going to tell you is if you have any wear in the slides before you tear down your lathe for example. If this is what you are after, get one that reads in .0005" increments. an indicator that reads any finer than this will drive you nuts trying to get accurate readings out of it. In fact, until recently, I've always used .001" reading indicator!

    You already bought a surface plate. Have you bought a scraped straight edge like a camel back type? You going to need this along with all of the other tools needed to scrape with.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2017
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  5. Ulma Doctor

    Ulma Doctor Infinitely Curious Active Member

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    IMO, these will all help!

    A set of parallels (to indicate from)
    Gauge blocks (to indicate from)
    Feeler gauges from.001" to .030" (measures clearances)
    Flashlight (determines general flatness of stuff against a surface plate)
    PPI gauge (1x1 hollow square)(has radius gauge integral to the construction)
    Dial indicator or test indicator (to determine wear and inspect finished work)
    There maybe more , but that's what I got for now!!!:)
     
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  6. expressline99

    expressline99 H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Oh yes I'm halfway through Connelys book. Haven't seen Schlesinger or Burley yet! Will have to check into it.
    The Assessment tools are what I'm after! :)

    Thanks, Paul
     
  7. expressline99

    expressline99 H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Scraping technique is not in question here. I'm asking about equipment that people find useful doing this.
    I'm threshing ideas as I move along ahead of time.
     
  8. expressline99

    expressline99 H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Great that was what I was after. I was wondering if a half a tenth is what I needed. But the style is also something I was wondering. Since there are dials with pivoting heads etc.

    The straight edges I am going to make as the first few projects before getting to the machines. I have all the cast iron needed to make these. So that's the plan.
    My level showed up today in multiple parts so that's a little bit of a let down. But the stand isn't welded up yet so I've got some time.
    Not to worry I'm following everyone's advice Nothing will be taken apart until I've had some practice and made the straight edges.
     
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  9. expressline99

    expressline99 H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Thanks Mike! I see a couple of things to add to the list. I was planning to get a PPI gauge. Just haven't searched for one yet.
    At least those are simple. If they can mess that up I'd be surprised!
     
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  10. Ulma Doctor

    Ulma Doctor Infinitely Curious Active Member

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    You can easily make the ppi gauge
    Dapra sells them
    I can scan mine and you can copy it if you were so inclined :)
     
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  11. expressline99

    expressline99 H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I should buy one. :) Too many projects already!
     
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  12. 4gsr

    4gsr Global Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    All you need is a card board cutout the the 1" square opening. As for the radii on the gage, select three different size cans of an appropriate diameter to use for a gage to grind your scraper blade radius to. :rolleyes: I don't remember the radius sizes off hand.
     
  13. 4gsr

    4gsr Global Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Here's the link to a copy of Schlesinger's book on Machine Tool Inspection

    http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/testing-machine-tools-burley-schleshinger.41803/

    But don't get all hung up in all of the tight tolerance requirements for new machine tools. Even in rebuilding machines, it takes a great deal of time in scraping and precision instruments to accomplish. And I doubt most of us can recondition our worn out machines to this standard. It is something to shoot for when reconditioning critical components. We can get them darn close!

    Ken
     
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  14. Rex Walters

    Rex Walters Active Member Active Member

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    I believe (hope) you're saying you're relieved you don't have to buy an indicator that reads to half a tenth (0.00005" or 50 millionths of an inch). Such things do exist, even mechanical indicators, but they aren't cheap for darn sure.

    Ken was saying to get an indicator with divisions every 5 tenths (two divisions every thou). I strongly agree that such an indicator is ideal (though still pricey).

    I agree with everything Ken and Mike suggested.

    I know next to nothing about machine reconditioning, but would still recommend my route of spending a few weeks learning how to scrape cast iron parts flat, parallel, and square first, before trying any reconditioning. It's puzzling enough to understand why blue-ups sometimes seem to change at random even with simple rectangular parts. Until you can reliably step scrape a part parallel and square within a a couple tenths over, say six or ten inches, I wouldn't attempt anything too serious on your lathe.

    Measuring how much scraping is required is an excellent (and non-destructive!) thing to try in the meantime, though. It's instructive to see how well your measurements repeat, and how much they might vary from day to day. This video shows something Richard King's dad invented, called the "king-way" tool for measuring machine tool ways.

    I've had my eye on this indicator for a while: http://a.co/bWpLsNS even though I have both a 0.001" and 0.0001" Mitsutoyo DTI. My DTIs require you to flip a switch to read with the lever traveling in the other direction (i.e. one setting when pushing the lever, the other when pulling) -- I think the interrapid style indicators eliminate the switch.

    The tenths indicator is so nervous and fiddly in use that it's annoying, but it is sometimes useful (for measuring the depth of individual scrape marks, for example).

    A half-thou indicator seems like it would be ideal to me, though I don't own one. You could still interpolate between divisions to estimate to one or two tenths, but the needle wouldn't bounce around quite as much as an actual tenths indicator, making it much easier to use.

    In addition to a mag base and adjustable arm, you'll definitely want a surface gage and snug to fit your DTI (those are relatively cheap).

    Regards,
    --
    Rex
     
  15. 4gsr

    4gsr Global Moderator Staff Member H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Rex, you think a tenths reading indicator is nervous and fiddly, which you are correct, try a 50 millionths reading indicator. You literally can't keep the needle from moving. The fine adjustments you find on a indicator setup are almost totally useless. And even the fine adjustments on height gages are hard to use with the more sensitive dial indicators. I hate to try a digital indicator on a stand with a fine adjustment. I have a old analytical electronic indicator that goes down to 50 millionths. The electronics smooth out the signal so the needle doesn't bounce around so bad.
     
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  16. Rex Walters

    Rex Walters Active Member Active Member

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    I believe it! I expect that heat from your hands or breath is probably enough to get the needle moving.
     
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  17. expressline99

    expressline99 H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    OK so opinions on which models of .0005 dials I should choose from? Figure I have $150 to get a decent one and I have an adjustable arm noga knock off base to put it on.

    The surface gage I'm totally up in the air on knowing what to get. They look really simple to me but I'm sure there are plenty of differences in qualities.

    Are the dials usually just pin or lever? Or are there combinations? Where the tips can be changed?

    Paul
     
  18. Rex Walters

    Rex Walters Active Member Active Member

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    Ooh. Nothing more fun than spending other people's money. ;-)

    These should help:

    Amazon
    MSC

    For your budget I'd go with the SPI from MSC myself.

    Variables are the quality and jeweling, mounting options, lever arm options, face color, and travel distance.

    You don't need much travel distance (0.015" is plenty).

    Look for a used Starrett surface gage on ebay -- shouldn't cost you more than twenty bucks or so. Small ones are model 56 or 57, large ones model 257.
     
  19. Rex Walters

    Rex Walters Active Member Active Member

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    FWIW, I just ordered one of those 0.03" travel, 0.0005" resolution DTIs from SPI for myself.

    $65 was just too good a price to pass up.

    I still want a good Interrapid, though.
    --
    Rex
     
  20. expressline99

    expressline99 H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I'm ordering one of the SPIs from MSC. Those surface gages are more than $20.00 how much is the max to pay? Looks like new they are over $200?
    Paul
     
  21. Rex Walters

    Rex Walters Active Member Active Member

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    $20 may be a little optimistic, but they are common on ebay. You shouldn't have too much difficulty getting a good deal.
     
  22. expressline99

    expressline99 H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I bought someone's 57a with 2 spindles. I'm sure that'll be fine. How much are those king ways? I don't think I can get ken to build me a trolley for my lathe measuring... :(

    Kinda wish Bob would chime in. I must have done something ;)


    Paul
     
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  23. expressline99

    expressline99 H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Hey Ken...I could build you a stand if you make me a trolley? :)

    Paul
     

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