Purchasing a Monarch 10EE Round Dial

This is just a educated guess but I would say the MG set is to use 2 phase power to run a standard motor.

Vettbob and Cal Haines are closest to the truth. Two phase is only available back east and I have read about it but never seen it in use. Was very popular or at least used quite a bit in the Ohio PA area in large manufacturing plants. The National Electric Code has very little to say about it. I have heard of the Niagara Falls connection in other sources.

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As a matter of curiousity, you've indicated that others are closest to the truth. I'm curious, do you see technical inaccuracy in the posts I made? As far as I can tell, all posts subquent to mine are just restatements of what I wrote.


Ray
 
Bless you Ray C. You made me crack a book. Never hurts anyone every once in a while. I find no real inaccuracies in your statement but some terminology I am not familiar with. To my knowledge "SPLIT PHASE" is a term applied to fractional HP single phase motors and refers to the style/design of the make up of the coil winding. "SPLIT LEG" I have never run into before. Other than that I have no qualms about anything in your posts. Now "WILD LEG" is a term applied to the high voltage leg in a three phase delta supply.

As stated, true TWO PHASE is a four wire affair. Coming from two separately derived sources, the assembled in a fashion to be 180 degrees out of phase with each other. For lack of a better explanation, similar to how a DC motor operates except having a rotor instead of an armature. Consider the coils having a North and South pole orientation but changing polarity sixty times a second. This then acts upon the residual magnetism of the rotor dragging it around the stator as best as it can. I don't even know what the design speed is for a two phase motor. I suppose it is like a three phase motor and depends on the number of poles. The greater the umber of poles the slower it goes as it does not have to turn as fast to keep up with the phase (magnetism) shift generated in the coils of the windings.

Single phase is derived from a single source with a tap in the center to halve the voltage of the two phase conductors. In theory you could tap the winding at 1/3 and have 79.92v on one leg to ground and 159.84v on the other, but still 240v leg to leg. It is all a ratio deal. Think of a audio transformer with different power outputs. Same deal. One lead will put out 100% and another lead will only use 2/3 of the winding for a 1/3 reduction in volume.

On the subject of burned contacts. I would not file or burnish them unless the surface is so deformed as to hold the contact partially open when energized. That silver color, yes, it is really silver alloy so why dump it on the floor. The sooty residue will return the first time you operate the contact under load. It is a by product of arc flash cause by opening the contact under load. Once started electricity does not like to quit so until a large enough air gap between the contacts is developed, the current continues to flow. With DC, as on a ships DC open switchboard, it is very easy to draw an arc and maintain it over the air gap on an open knife switch. My first mentors used to do just that because they knew it scared the hell out of me. Ah yes, open front DC switchboards on a rocking rolling ship. Nice and sweaty down in Auxiliary Pump Room #1. Those were the days!

Just a flash but why don't we find the voltage of the motor and try to run it direct and eliminate the generator part. I bet it is just a standard motor. Thinking from a design point of view the more you deviate from standard, the more expensive the item becomes. That would never do. The engineers I used to work with would always say "Looks nice, what did it cost to do that?" After I would give them a figure they would say "Fine, now figure out how to do it for half the price."! The pictures of the control show it to be very, very old equipment that is probably do for a refresh also. Folks don't think of it but electrical components wear out too.

To be honest my man, I have tried to be real accurate to the best of my limited knowledge especially after I saw the double "E" connected to your name! On the other hand a good friend of mine is a EE for the Bonneville Power Administration and when he offered to help me trim a house he ask for terminal strips to connect the wires as he had never heard of wirenuts. Course he had not been out of school too long at the time but I still tease him about it.
 
And even now, there is something called "restless leg". It's a medical syndrome, they don't know what it is but, they sell medication for it. -Go figure. :).


BTW: Don't worry about the "EE" stuff. On my posted resumes, I only list the degrees which are applicable to the job. I don't really consider myself an EE but can do the work if called upon. I've spent a lifetime learning and doing; followed by doing and learning... -and that's what counts.
 
An Introduction to 10EE Motor/Generator (MG) Drives

For those not familiar with motor/generator (MG) 10EEs like Robert's, here's how they work:

The MG consists of an AC motor (typically 3450RPM and 4.6HP) that drives a DC generator (typically 2.5kW) and a DC exciter. The spindle motor is a 3HP DC motor with a large number of poles. It will provide continuously variable, silky smooth power at the spindle from about 8 RPM up to as much as 4000 RPM (depending on pulley ratio). The spindle motor is coupled to a 6:1 back-gear unit, giving it a low speed range of about 8 to 700 RPM. The exciter is a self-exciting DC generator that provides 115VDC (230VDC in the first generation machines) to power the relays in the DC control panel and the generator and spindle motor field windings. The DC generator is always built on the same shaft as the AC motor; first generation machines also had the exciter on the common shaft. The generator provides current for the spindle motor's armature.

Variable speed control is via the Ward-Leonard system: Below the motor's "base speed" the spindle motor's field is at full voltage (115 or 230 VDC) and its armature voltage is increased by controlling the generator's shunt field voltage. At base speed, the MG provides the spindle motor with full field and armature voltage. The spindle motor's base speed is 690 RPM at an armature voltage of 230VDC. To get the motor to run faster than base speed, its shunt field voltage is reduced (which seems counter-intuitive); this is called “field weakening”. The maximum speed of the spindle motor is typically 2400 RPM. The ratio of the pulleys installed can provide maximum spindle speeds from 2500 to 4000 RPM (machines have only one pulley ratio). Below base speed, the spindle motor operates at constant torque; above base speed it provides constant HP.

Control of the generator and spindle motor fields is by a specially wound, ganged pair of 500W Ohmite rheostats: The spindle motor armature (generator control) rheostat is configured as a potentiometer to directly control the voltage to the generator’s field. It varies from about 700 Ohms at low-speed end to 0 Ohms at mid-range and above. The spindle motor field control rheostat is connected in series with the field and has a resistance of 0 Ohms for the first half (low speed) of rotation, then increases to 300-400 Ohms at maximum speed.

Cal
 
Cal,

Thank you. I've heard dribs-and-drabs of how they were designed but never had such a full understanding until reading your post... Thanks...

Now, I'm curious... Why did they go to such trouble and what did it buy them? Certainly by then, AC motors were good, gear design was very mature and so were sophisticated gearboxes and transmissions. Just curious about why they went this route... Any ideas?


... Don't wish to derail the topic too much but, my father had a Monarch at his company and I do believe (but I could very well be mistaken) it was all driven with hydraulics.


Ray
 
Boy; I started quite the discussion on different power Types. The reason you weaken the field on the motor is to reduce the counter EMF( electro magnetic Force) this is what indirectly keeps the current going thru the armature in check. There is always a balance between the armature and the field on a motor. That's why people burn up power tools when they load up the motor it slows down. The magnetic field can't keep the current in check and the size of the wire the armature and or field are made of can't handle the additional current flowing thru it. I know this is a over simplification but it gets the point across. When the motor is stalled it can only sustain this condition for a certain amount of time it is called (locked rotor current).

Hope it helps Robert
 
...
Now, I'm curious... Why did they go to such trouble and what did it buy them? Certainly by then, AC motors were good, gear design was very mature and so were sophisticated gearboxes and transmissions. Just curious about why they went this route... Any ideas?

... Don't wish to derail the topic too much but, my father had a Monarch at his company and I do believe (but I could very well be mistaken) it was all driven with hydraulics.
...
Hi Ray,

The benefit of the 10EE's drive was continuous variable speed. I don't know that the 10EE was the first variable speed toolroom lathe, but it was certainly an early entry. The problem with a gear-head lathe is that the vibration from the gears can make it impossible to get a good surface finish on some materials. The ability to easily vary speed is quite nice. If you're experiencing surface finish problems you can often change the speed a bit and get it to go away. Anyway, the market spoke and variable speed toolroom lathes were in high demand, with multiple companies producing them. The 10EE's reputation is built in large part on its variable speed drive. Monarch still builds 10EEs.

Reeves drives were around, so they could have gone that route I suppose. I doubt we'll know why they made their choice. Perhaps they couldn't get the low speed torque that they wanted with a Reeves drive?

You're correct: the first generation of 10EEs had a hydraulic Sundstrand Hydrostatic Transmission drive. It wasn't a terribly successful drive and was replaced within a few years by the motor/generator (MG) drives.

Monarch didn't make the MGs. They bought the MG set and spindle motor from Reliance. So they had a proven system that they could buy and install in their lathes. By the time the made the switch they were gearing up for WWII. AFIK, Monarch designed the DC control panel which controls the MG system. Following WWII Monarch developed their own tube-based electronic controls but retained the Reliance DC spindle motor.

Cal
 
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