New Mill and Lathe

[ThinWoodsman]

By applying that, the only thing people really need is a 7x14" lathe because it will fit both of those dimensions. The difference is a 14" will be heavier, stronger, and more rigid, allowing you to cut those smaller pieces faster and more accurately, and when that task that comes up needing 13" diameter, a 2" spindle bore, or 36" between centers, you are already equipped to handle it.

The same sort of thinking made me purchase a 7x16 lathe from Micromark when I was starting out. I thought it would work out of the box, as would the various accessories (cutters, toolposts, etc) sold for it. This turned out to not be the case, and a few months of reading made it apparent that every tool bit has to be custom ground, the mini-lathes need to have carriage locks and the like added, the gibs have to be machined or even replaced, and so forth. All of which is problematic when you're just starting out and have access to only that unreliable and imprecise machine you've purchased.

I took the plunge and got a used 14x40 with a bunch of tooling, and you know what, everything worked out of the box (well, upon receipt, as there was obviously no actual box). So far I have only been making stuff in the 1" diameter, 12" length range and smaller, but I came across a long 3" diameter brass rod and hey, now I have a cannon project in my future. Because, you know, I can.

So, yeah - size does matter, and buying new doesn't necessarily get you the ready-to-run machine that justifies buying new in the first place.

 

[matthewsx]

The same sort of thinking made me purchase a 7x16 lathe from Micromark when I was starting out. I thought it would work out of the box, as would the various accessories (cutters, toolposts, etc) sold for it.

The difference is a 14" will be heavier, stronger, and more rigid, allowing you to cut those smaller pieces faster and more accurately, and when that task that comes up needing 13" diameter, a 2" spindle bore, or 36" between centers, you are already equipped to handle it.

These are both great points. I used to sell racing go-karts and the most important part of the job was getting the kart set up for the driver and teaching the crew chief (dad) how things worked. Occasionally I'd see someone who bought something sight unseen and watching them struggle was hard, especially if they were the kind of person who wouldn't take helpful advice.

The OP has already taken the right first step IMHO, asking questions from people who have been there and done that. A few months back I decided to refurbish my 100-year-old Seneca Falls lathe. I only paid $300 for it back when I had the kart business and it was great for doing engine rebuilds, made me a bunch of money so I didn't figure it owed me anything. I installed a QCTP, new 3 phase motor with VFD, bought collets, tachometer, etc. Knowing what I know now I should have sold it and bought something newer that will turn more than 340rpm. Don't get me wrong, it serves my needs now, but for not much more than I have into it I could have a bigger machine (one that would even still fit in the same floorspace) that I won't need to upgrade eventually.

IMHO, the best deals on machines probably come from the retired hobbyist who is upgrading or better yet selling out. If you can check out the machine under power and talk with the person who's been running it you'll get a good feel for what it can do. Often these older machines have had the bugs already worked out of them, unlike buying new where that's your job. If you're set on buying new then go with a reputable dealer that stands behind their products. Taiwan made machines are probably worth the extra $$$, Chinese built should always be considered a "kit" where you'll need to at the very least disassemble, clean and properly lubricate.

Cheers,

John

 

[Aaron_W]

The same sort of thinking made me purchase a 7x16 lathe from Micromark when I was starting out. I thought it would work out of the box, as would the various accessories (cutters, toolposts, etc) sold for it. This turned out to not be the case, and a few months of reading made it apparent that every tool bit has to be custom ground, the mini-lathes need to have carriage locks and the like added, the gibs have to be machined or even replaced, and so forth. All of which is problematic when you're just starting out and have access to only that unreliable and imprecise machine you've purchased.

I took the plunge and got a used 14x40 with a bunch of tooling, and you know what, everything worked out of the box (well, upon receipt, as there was obviously no actual box). So far I have only been making stuff in the 1" diameter, 12" length range and smaller, but I came across a long 3" diameter brass rod and hey, now I have a cannon project in my future. Because, you know, I can.

So, yeah - size does matter, and buying new doesn't necessarily get you the ready-to-run machine that justifies buying new in the first place.

I've only fondled the knobs of a HF 7x14 in the store, and read about them here but I've come to the conclusion that the 7x lathes are probably about the worst lathes a new person could buy. Built as cheaply as possible, they require a lot of work to get going, and even then are only marginally satisfactory.

For a small lathe it seems like one would be much better off skipping the 7x and look at a Chinese 8x16, 9x20, Sherline, Taig or a used 6-10" American lathe. Of course all of those come with a much higher price tag than the 7x's $500-600.
I can't speak for the others, but excepting some minor assembly my Sherline did work right out of the box which is good because I had no idea what I was doing. Used lathes of course are something of a gamble for a new person with little ability to judge condition.

 

[mikey]

I think I agree mostly, though the part about not buying a 14" lathe when you generally turn under 1.5" diameter and 12" in length seemed like slightly flawed logic. By applying that, the only thing people really need is a 7x14" lathe because it will fit both of those dimensions. The difference is a 14" will be heavier, stronger, and more rigid, allowing you to cut those smaller pieces faster and more accurately, and when that task that comes up needing 13" diameter, a 2" spindle bore, or 36" between centers, you are already equipped to handle it.

I have one of the smaller machines (1030) and even though it is rare that I turn something more than 1.5" OD, there are several things I wanted to do but couldn't because they needed something a bit larger to fit.

You totally missed the point, which is that the person buying the lathe has to determine what his needs are so that machines of the appropriate size are chosen. Almost every single new guy looking for a machine fails to do this, and this is the most important step in choosing the right stuff. I am not saying he shouldn't get a 14" lathe or a 7X lathe. I am saying that no matter how well meaning the forum is, we are NOT clairvoyant and anything we say is of little value without some guidance from the OP. The onus of choosing the size of the machine does not fall on the forum; it cannot.

Every single one of us will run into situations that require a larger machine than we currently have; you could have a 20X lathe and still run out of room. You have to draw a line somewhere and it has to be practical. As a hobby guy, the vast majority of the work we do will fit in a 11-12" lathe ... but not all. In that case, you either cannot do it or you have to take it to someone with a larger lathe. I have seen this come up time and time again, where some forum member says, "Yeah, I ran out of room a few times and I regret buying the lathe that has met 99.9% of my needs ..." That, Sir, is flawed logic.

 

[stioc]

But @mikey while you make a valid point the problem is as a newbie most of the time you won't know what your future needs will be. I didn't really know and I still don't know even after I've had my lathe for over a year. I sure am glad I didn't get a smaller one, in fact, I regret I didn't get a 12x36 but it was a big jump in price at the time.

Based on my limited experience I'll say that a 12x is a very good size as most general work can be done on it. If you can get a 14x go for it. Anything bigger than a 14x is a bit too big for a home shop but that's just my personal opinion.

 

[shooter123456]

You totally missed the point, which is that the person buying the lathe has to determine what his needs are so that machines of the appropriate size are chosen. Almost every single new guy looking for a machine fails to do this, and this is the most important step in choosing the right stuff. I am not saying he shouldn't get a 14" lathe or a 7X lathe. I am saying that no matter how well meaning the forum is, we are NOT clairvoyant and anything we say is of little value without some guidance from the OP. The onus of choosing the size of the machine does not fall on the forum; it cannot.

Every single one of us will run into situations that require a larger machine than we currently have; you could have a 20X lathe and still run out of room. You have to draw a line somewhere and it has to be practical. As a hobby guy, the vast majority of the work we do will fit in a 11-12" lathe ... but not all. In that case, you either cannot do it or you have to take it to someone with a larger lathe. I have seen this come up time and time again, where some forum member says, "Yeah, I ran out of room a few times and I regret buying the lathe that has met 99.9% of my needs ..." That, Sir, is flawed logic.

I think we agree on most of the points, we just disagree as to the definition of "Appropriate size". Just because a machine will fit the majority of the work you want to do and be able to complete the job, that does not make the machine an appropriate size. I agree that only the person looking to buy a machine can decide what they will be using it for. I am just of the opinion that a larger machine will do everything the smaller ones will do, just better and faster. So even if you plan to only work on smaller and shorter parts, a 13x36 or 14x40 can still be an appropriate size machine.

I see that bit about someone wishing they got a larger machine even though it meets most of their needs as well. The part that you left out though is that though it meets their needs, they have to work a lot harder to make it do so, where if they just got a slightly larger one, that work would have been much easier.

 

[Aaron_W]

I think we agree on most of the points, we just disagree as to the definition of "Appropriate size". Just because a machine will fit the majority of the work you want to do and be able to complete the job, that does not make the machine an appropriate size. I agree that only the person looking to buy a machine can decide what they will be using it for. I am just of the opinion that a larger machine will do everything the smaller ones will do, just better and faster. So even if you plan to only work on smaller and shorter parts, a 13x36 or 14x40 can still be an appropriate size machine.

I see that bit about someone wishing they got a larger machine even though it meets most of their needs as well. The part that you left out though is that though it meets their needs, they have to work a lot harder to make it do so, where if they just got a slightly larger one, that work would have been much easier.

What seems to be frequently overlooked is the requirements for a larger lathe. Most 12" + lathes require 240v, some 3 phase (VFD). They weigh 1/2 ton+ so require a truck and special equipment / skills to move and are a lot of fun to get into a basement or spare bedroom shop.

That is a lot of added cost and work if an 8", 9" or smaller 10" lathe would meet their needs. Two people can load that into the back of a Honda Civic and set it up in a spare bedroom, or small basement shop and run it off a standard 120v 15 or 20A circuit.

Tooling for a larger lathe also costs and weighs more, sometimes substantially more. The 6" chuck on my Logan weighs about as much as my whole Sherline lathe.


Nothing wrong with a lathe bigger than you need, but they do have their own set of drawbacks when a much smaller lathe meets the need and that always seems to get left out. Not everybody who decides to buy a lathe already has a well outfitted shop.
Starting with a small lathe and upgrading as your needs change is a pretty safe bet. If you buy used you can almost certainly get your money back, and even buying new it is a few hundred dollars lost (Grizzly 9x19 $1200 new, used they frequently are for sale at $600-800). They are also easy to shove to the back of your garage, or hall closet and forget about if turning metal turns out not to be your thing (which accounts for the practically new appearance of many small lathes on CL). Not so much of an option with a lathe half the size of a car.

 

[mikey]

I am just of the opinion that a larger machine will do everything the smaller ones will do, just better and faster. So even if you plan to only work on smaller and shorter parts, a 13x36 or 14x40 can still be an appropriate size machine.

Hmm, I think we may just have to agree to disagree on this one. As an example, I need to turn a thumbscrew from tool steel that has a 1/4" long threaded section for a 4-48, class 3 thread to fit a hardened indicator clamp on my Murkens surface gauge. I'm pretty sure I can make that a lot faster and easier and better on my little Sherline lathe than I can using my Emco Super 11. Almost every small precision part I make is made on that Sherline lathe because it is easier and more precise so better and faster? No, I don't think this is the case for everyone, although I do respect the opinon of those of you who think so.

I see that bit about someone wishing they got a larger machine even though it meets most of their needs as well. The part that you left out though is that though it meets their needs, they have to work a lot harder to make it do so, where if they just got a slightly larger one, that work would have been much easier.

I don't see why they have to work harder but I think I understand what you're saying. If you have a cheap Chinese 10" lathe that struggles to take a 0.100" depth of cut in steel then yes, a 13" lathe will get it done easier. But what if you have an 11" lathe that can take double that depth of cut without slowing down? Doesn't it come down to the quality and design of the lathe in question? Not all lathes of a given size capacity are created equal. A Monarch 10EE, a Hardinge HLV-H, or even the lowly Emco Super 11 will match most 12 or 13" lathes in capability other than the size of the work piece.

In the world of machine tool, there is no one size fits all. Nor do all hobby machinists have the same needs, space or budget. All we can do is choose as wisely as we can, knowing that if things do not work out as expected then hopefully the next time we will have a better idea of what we really need.

 

[davidpbest]

If you would like some unvarnished perspective, PM me. Happy to share my decades of experience - just no on public forums like this.

 

[7635tools]

Purchasing the machines is usually the cheapest part. It’s all the rest of the tooling that’s cost the money.


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