New Mill and Lathe make their first chips !!

[RockwellHardness]

I posted this thread in the PM LMS category, but most of my questions pertain to mills and lathes in general.

I have finished the first round of set up on the the PM 932 mill and PM1236 lathe. I have only had a slight bit of time on a friends Bridgeport, and no lathe experience, so you know I am starting from square one.

Checking the taper on the lathe, with a 1.3 inch diameter bar between the tailstock and the chuck, there was only 1 thou difference in the diameter over 22 inches. I think that is pretty good, any thoughts ?


On the mill, I had previously aligned the spindle to the column, and then got the column close ( 3 thou tilt diagonally in one plane in a 16 inch span) in the alignment with the table, and was able to square up a 1x2x3 inch block of aluminum ( I would have milled a bigger piece if I had one handy )to with a half a thou, so now back to fine tuning and trying to understand more clearly what all is going on with the mill as far as being all squared up and what affects what as far as squared up is concerned, and getting it squared up as perfectly as I can within the limitations of my tools and the machine.

It was such a good feeling to make some chips. Both machines work incredibly well. Matt and his manufactures got the important things right.

Gibs: The table gibs are easy to figure out, and I tried to achieve the balance I wanted, understanding the tradeoff between accuracy & repeatability to ease of cranking the handles.

The Headstock gib I am not sure about. hard to feel anything cranking the heavy headstock, so much friction with the drive train and the large forces on the ways.

I am not all that positive I have the direction of the headstock gib taper figured out. I measured the width and thickness of the gib top and bottom as best I could, and I got the width to be the same, around 1 inch, but the top of the gib was about 1/10 inch thicker. If that is correct, then screwing in the top adjustment will make things tighter.

I loosened the bottom adjustment set screw, screwed in the top adjustment the same amount or so until it felt right, then cranked up and down. I did this until I thought I could discern the effort to crank was changing, and stopped adjusting the gibs when I thought the cranking effort " felt right" .

The gib on the headstock ended up poking out 1/2 inch below the structure, and with the adjustment screw head, the chip shield will not go back on the upper right corner, and now is held on top by only the left and socket head, and tilts at an angle.

I had busted my cheapy dial test indicator the other day, and I found this really neat shop, Long Island Indicator service, http://longislandindicator.com They have allot of good information you would be hard pressed to find anywhere else. They compare the different types of equipment and the companies that make them.

They also sell them, and they have some of the Interrapids on sale at the moment, and are just about the lowest price when I price checked. I will pay a certain amount more to support good businesses, especially pros like Long Island Indicator who have provided such good info, though this time it was the lowest price except for one place, and that just a few dollars. :thumbzup:

It shipped the next day, so they are quick. They of course can service most of the tools worth repairing.

Hopefully I will not break this one !! According to the Tool and Die Guy, the Interapids are worth paying more for. (He has a good video on You tube. )

When tramming the Table on the mill the first time, there was a lot of movement left and right when I locked down the headstock. Since then I have moved the headstock up and down allot, and last night I checked again, and locking down caused a change of only 1/2 thou at 8 inches from the spindle. The gib must have worn off its high spots. And I am thinking that with the light cuts in aluminum I am going to do, no need to lock the headstock ever.

I have noticed that the table cranks allot easier now. So the gibs needs some working in time apparently. And it could be aided by the lubrication method I employed. The screws and sliding surfaces are all accessible on the mill, and after cleaning, I coated everything liberally with my favorite lubricant, Fel Pro C5-A Anti Seize ( copper paste ) This is my favorite mainly because there was a lifetime supply left in the shop when I bought it !!!

Anyway I think it works, and you can tell where it is because of its color. Any thoughts on using this lube? I will still apply oil to the crank handles and other non reachables. Do those oil cans that came with the mill and lathe work, what do you use in them ?



Thanks,

RH

 

[Ray C]

1.5" over 22" is pretty good for most things but, keep in mind, when you clamp a shaft into a fix-jawed chuck, it's almost impossible to set it up properly in a tailstock center. If you spin between centers using a dog, that's when you'll know if your tailstock is centered properly.

As for milling on a manual machine, half thou tolerances are very acceptable. Also, keep in-mind that you can drive yourself buggy getting the column alined to near-zero conditions but, I don't get that fanatical about it. Things flex, jibs move, bearings have small amounts of tolerance etc... Get it aligned reasonably well, make some test pieces using good practices and make a judgment call if the machine is aligned well enough.

I don't think I understand your issue with the jibs... Yes, they are tapered and work by pushing them on one end with a screw and retaining them on the other end with a screw. Because they are tapered, I don't think it's physically possible to install them improperly.

Dial indicators: I purchase DIs and TDIs from shars at a cost of about $50 each. I find they work just fine and I've tested them against gauge blocks with outstanding results. I personally don't purchase the really expensive units because, as you found out, they can be broken -and repairing them is about the same cost (or less) than buying a new one.

As for way lube, I use Vactra #2 or #4. It's the de-facto standard product and if it was no good, the majority of shops would not be using it. It's the recommended lube even on some pressurized CNC oil lube systems. -It's never failed me. For years, on my older equipment, I just used 30W oil -and that worked fine but, I think the Vactra is better. The most important thing is to keep the ways well lubed and covered as much as possible.

... Sounds like you're off to a good start...


Ray

I posted this thread in the PM LMS category, but most of my questions pertain to mills and lathes in general.

I have finished the first round of set up on the the PM 932 mill and PM1236 lathe. I have only had a slight bit of time on a friends Bridgeport, and no lathe experience, so you know I am starting from square one.

Checking the taper on the lathe, with a 1.3 inch diameter bar between the tailstock and the chuck, there was only 1 thou difference in the diameter over 22 inches. I think that is pretty good, any thoughts ?


On the mill, I had previously aligned the spindle to the column, and then got the column close ( 3 thou tilt diagonally in one plane in a 16 inch span) in the alignment with the table, and was able to square up a 1x2x3 inch block of aluminum ( I would have milled a bigger piece if I had one handy )to with a half a thou, so now back to fine tuning and trying to understand more clearly what all is going on with the mill as far as being all squared up and what affects what as far as squared up is concerned, and getting it squared up as perfectly as I can within the limitations of my tools and the machine.

It was such a good feeling to make some chips. Both machines work incredibly well. Matt and his manufactures got the important things right.

Gibs: The table gibs are easy to figure out, and I tried to achieve the balance I wanted, understanding the tradeoff between accuracy & repeatability to ease of cranking the handles.

The Headstock gib I am not sure about. hard to feel anything cranking the heavy headstock, so much friction with the drive train and the large forces on the ways.

I am not all that positive I have the direction of the headstock gib taper figured out. I measured the width and thickness of the gib top and bottom as best I could, and I got the width to be the same, around 1 inch, but the top of the gib was about 1/10 inch thicker. If that is correct, then screwing in the top adjustment will make things tighter.

I loosened the bottom adjustment set screw, screwed in the top adjustment the same amount or so until it felt right, then cranked up and down. I did this until I thought I could discern the effort to crank was changing, and stopped adjusting the gibs when I thought the cranking effort " felt right" .

The gib on the headstock ended up poking out 1/2 inch below the structure, and with the adjustment screw head, the chip shield will not go back on the upper right corner, and now is held on top by only the left and socket head, and tilts at an angle.

I had busted my cheapy dial test indicator the other day, and I found this really neat shop, Long Island Indicator service, http://longislandindicator.com They have allot of good information you would be hard pressed to find anywhere else. They compare the different types of equipment and the companies that make them.

They also sell them, and they have some of the Interrapids on sale at the moment, and are just about the lowest price when I price checked. I will pay a certain amount more to support good businesses, especially pros like Long Island Indicator who have provided such good info, though this time it was the lowest price except for one place, and that just a few dollars. :thumbzup:

It shipped the next day, so they are quick. They of course can service most of the tools worth repairing.

Hopefully I will not break this one !! According to the Tool and Die Guy, the Interapids are worth paying more for. (He has a good video on You tube. )

When tramming the Table on the mill the first time, there was a lot of movement left and right when I locked down the headstock. Since then I have moved the headstock up and down allot, and last night I checked again, and locking down caused a change of only 1/2 thou at 8 inches from the spindle. The gib must have worn off its high spots. And I am thinking that with the light cuts in aluminum I am going to do, no need to lock the headstock ever.

I have noticed that the table cranks allot easier now. So the gibs needs some working in time apparently. And it could be aided by the lubrication method I employed. The screws and sliding surfaces are all accessible on the mill, and after cleaning, I coated everything liberally with my favorite lubricant, Fel Pro C5-A Anti Seize ( copper paste ) This is my favorite mainly because there was a lifetime supply left in the shop when I bought it !!!

Anyway I think it works, and you can tell where it is because of its color. Any thoughts on using this lube? I will still apply oil to the crank handles and other non reachables. Do those oil cans that came with the mill and lathe work, what do you use in them ?



Thanks,

RH

 

[RockwellHardness]

1.5" over 22" is pretty good for most things but, keep in mind, when you clamp a shaft into a fix-jawed chuck, it's almost impossible to set it up properly in a tailstock center. If you spin between centers using a dog, that's when you'll know if your tailstock is centered properly.

As for milling on a manual machine, half thou tolerances are very acceptable. Also, keep in-mind that you can drive yourself buggy getting the column alined to near-zero conditions but, I don't get that fanatical about it. Things flex, jibs move, bearings have small amounts of tolerance etc... Get it aligned reasonably well, make some test pieces using good practices and make a judgment call if the machine is aligned well enough.

I don't think I understand your issue with the jibs... Yes, they are tapered and work by pushing them on one end with a screw and retaining them on the other end with a screw. Because they are tapered, I don't think it's physically possible to install them improperly.

Dial indicators: I purchase DIs and TDIs from shars at a cost of about $50 each. I find they work just fine and I've tested them against gauge blocks with outstanding results. I personally don't purchase the really expensive units because, as you found out, they can be broken -and repairing them is about the same cost (or less) than buying a new one.

As for way lube, I use Vactra #2 or #4. It's the de-facto standard product and if it was no good, the majority of shops would not be using it. It's the recommended lube even on some pressurized CNC oil lube systems. -It's never failed me. For years, on my older equipment, I just used 30W oil -and that worked fine but, I think the Vactra is better. The most important thing is to keep the ways well lubed and covered as much as possible.

... Sounds like you're off to a good start...


Ray

Hi Ray,

Thanks for the reply, though it was just 1 thousandths change in diameter over the 22 inches, I think that you had a typo there hew:

Someday I may know what you are meaning about the tailstock, I will do some research to see if I can get it. Learning how to use the lathe and mill you have to have the mind of a detective, with one clue leading to another and another until one solves the mystery!

My main use for the lathe at this point is to turn aluminum to be used as a mandrel for wrapping with pre preg carbon fiber and curing in a oven, so now I am very happy to know I can get the tolerances I am needing. A slight bit of taper is just perfect, so I do not have to change a thing. For now anyway.

With the gibs, I am pretty sure I understand how they work, just with the headstock gib on the PM932 I am not positive of where the thick end is because it's a bit tricky to measure, and thus: does moving down tighten things up or loosen things up.

I totally agree with you about the Dial test indicator. My first mill I had for a couple of months was the LMS mini mill, and I ordered allot of tools from LMS. The screwless vice, the the parallels, the Dial test indicator I busted, the magnetic holder adjustable arms, the collets etc are very impressive for the money.

The screwless vice is perfect: With my new Browne and Sharpe dial caliper I can detect if the needle moves with 1/10000, and the vise is perfect and parallel. Same with the parallel set. So I will have no problem ordering tools from LMS or another importer that has a reputation to keep up. I do not consider myself a hobbiest, these machines are for me to do prototype work once in awhile, and I could not afford if not made in China.

It is just that I have a weakness for measuring instruments. I love holding well made tools, but I buy Craftsman vs Snap On, I try to get good enough for the occasional use, so I limit buying the best only for measuring tools.

Thanks for the tip on the lube, do those cans that came with machines work, or what should I use to pressure fill those spring loaded oiling port?

Thanks,

RH