Lathe or Mill…I can't decide and I'm going nutz

[george wilson]

Historically,the lathe has always been considered the most versatile machine. Like I said,early machine shops were built around the lathe and its attachments. This is an undeniably true statement. I am a retired professional with 50 years experience.

I love my milling machines,but try cutting threads on one. Watch and clock makers use a lathe not only for gear cutting,but also for making super accurate plates to mount them between. They do everything with well equipped lathes. The early pre industrial revolutionary thrusts,like Maudslay made,were directed towards making accurate screw cutting lathes. Mills,as we know them, came afterward.

If he wants to make small projects like telegraph keys,a lathe is the machine to get.

The lathe has been said to be the only machine that can duplicate itself,with castings to start on. It would take creative machining and a good,heavy lathe.

I even milled steel about 8" long on my 12" Sears Atlas milling attachment. And that is a very light lathe. It took time,but was doable for a hobby shop where time is not of the essence. Since milling work with the milling attachment is done very near the spindle,it helps the rigidity factor.

Do not consider the 109. It is not what you want.

The brass index plate below was made entirely on my 12" Sears lathe with milling attachment. I made the knurls,too. If I can make this on a lathe,with the sector arms and other non round parts,you can make excellent small brass projects,too.

 

[CODEMAN]

Well, I'm leaning towards getting a lathe first although I had a HF mill in a shopping cart last night, but pulled the plug on the order. Of course, my main issue is lack of funds. I realize that the Taig machines are quite small, but the stuff I'm doing is relatively small and I don't anticipate doing larger work. So now I'm thinking of looking for a Taig lathe with the milling attachment. What should I get as a basic starter package if I were to go in this direction?

Steve

 

[george wilson]

I would hold off until you can buy a decent size lathe,seriously. I have a friend who uses his Sherline all the time,but he makes miniatures only. He is World famous,and got his start hanging around in my shop as a teenager. For the cost of a new Sherline,you might be able to find a 10" bench lathe. Atlas lathes are quite light,and I had to baby my new one along. But,there are many used accessories available on Ebay all the time,such as milling attachments.

If you want to get into making miniatures of telegraph equipment,the Sherline would be o.k.. Maybe you'd like to do that until you can save up to find and buy a larger lathe.

At the Cabin Fever Expo in York,Pa. in April,there are always lots of Atlas lathes available for sale.

I only recommend the atlas because your work is just about all brass. I had an Atlas mill as a first mill,and it would cut brass well,too,but steel was a different story. I sold mine to a clock maker friend(who's work was brass). He was quite happy with it.

My next lathe was a 10 x 24" Jet from Taiwan. It was Worlds better,but would cost you more. My first decent mill was a Burke #4. Small,but a real machine that could readily mill steel.

P.S.: I see you are in New England. There are always good pickings for machinery up there,it being the industrial heartland years ago. There are a lot of clock making style lathes up there. I mean large size jeweler's type lathes that do not cut threads(without special attachments). But,they can swing 9" or 10",and are large enough to do decent milling. You can buy a Palmgren milling attachment these days,that can be used on these INSTRUMENT lathes. Last time I checked,a small Palmgren(they come in 3 sizes) was $250.00. They can be had used.

These instrument lathes usually are about 18" between centers. I just sold a Pratt and Whitney antique for $250.00. You need to find one WITH the detachable cross slide. They often get lost. As I said,they are enlarged jeweler's lathes. Clock makers used them a lot in the New England area. They are very rigid lathes,with pretty massive cast iron beds.

 

[David Kirtley]

When I look at your project, I see a small lathe and a drill press as being the tools that would get the most use. Then a probably a small bandsaw. The flat pieces don't have critical dimensions and would be more about finish and a few quick passes with a file would clean up saw marks. As far as positioning holes, hand layout can be just as accurate as any milling machine with a DRO. With a skilled machinist and the right tools, hand layout can be more accurate.

Drilling and tapping the ends of rods like that is trivial on a lathe and tricky with other tools. Especially as the rods get longer.
You can also make your own knurled knobs and other fasteners easily on a lathe.

I am not a fan of milling attachments on lathes. I really think you get the most bang for your buck with the little mills. A milling attachment is almost at the price range of a small mill like an X2 with a lot less capacity (my mill was under $400 with a coupon at HF). At any rate, the tooling is where the money goes more than the machines. Even with the big machines. If you do add a small mill, I really suggest the X2 with an R8 collet as being a good choice. That way if you decide to upgrade to a larger mill, much of the tooling will work just fine. If you are going to stay with small scale work, the Taig and Sherline machines are amazingly capable machines.

 

[george wilson]

The holes in my index plate were laid out by hand,walking a divider around each circular line until I got the right number of spaces. Then,they were hand punched,and actually drilled with a PUMP DRILL,a tool that goes back beyond the 18th. C.!!

I should mention: In choosing a lethe,the CROSS SLIDE travel will be used the most in milling. If your longest part is 4" long,the cross slide travel must exceed 4" by a little bit,to allow the cutter to clear the work on each end.

A very small lathe may not have this much travel. This (plus rigidity) are why I recommend getting a larger type lathe of 9 or 10" swing.

For your work,with a DECENTLY rigid lathe,even an Atlas,a milling attachment will be just fine. I have been there and done that. I dO base my recommendations upon your statement that you have limited funds. Yes,a real mill and real lathe would be a great deal better.

I understand why some others might not recommend a milling attachment,but I am considering the small,light,brass work you are wanting to do. For this,a milling attachment will be fine. I must assume the lathe you buy is NOT worn badly,though. A worn machine cannot be expected to do optimal work.

 

[chuckorlando]

I'm not disagreeing with you on the merits of a lathe. I'm just saying you can in fact turn on a mill and do so accurately. Truth be told, one could argue that it would be easier for me to turn on my bridgeport then on my 9x20 lathe. Tool in the vise would likely be more ridged then the 9x cross slide, carriage, and compound which is all a bit flimsy. And the x and y would be easier moving just for size of handles. The locks on the mill are easier to use and better.

How a bench mill would compare I really cant say. But turning on a mill can be done. You will have to hand tap over thread unless you have a cnc.

But thats not here nor there. I just enjoy the mill more and by the time you out fit a lathe to be a mill you could have just bought a mill. Or close to it.

Historically,the lathe has always been considered the most versatile machine. Like I said,early machine shops were built around the lathe and its attachments. This is an undeniably true statement. I am a retired professional with 50 years experience.

I love my milling machines,but try cutting threads on one. Watch and clock makers use a lathe not only for gear cutting,but also for making super accurate plates to mount them between. They do everything with well equipped lathes. The early pre industrial revolutionary thrusts,like Maudslay made,were directed towards making accurate screw cutting lathes. Mills,as we know them, came afterward.

If he wants to make small projects like telegraph keys,a lathe is the machine to get.

The lathe has been said to be the only machine that can duplicate itself,with castings to start on. It would take creative machining and a good,heavy lathe.

I even milled steel about 8" long on my 12" Sears Atlas milling attachment. And that is a very light lathe. It took time,but was doable for a hobby shop where time is not of the essence. Since milling work with the milling attachment is done very near the spindle,it helps the rigidity factor.

Do not consider the 109. It is not what you want.

The brass index plate below was made entirely on my 12" Sears lathe with milling attachment. I made the knurls,too. If I can make this on a lathe,with the sector arms and other non round parts,you can make excellent small brass projects,too.

 

[chuckorlando]

Just to see for my self I tried it. I can say with out any question, it is in fact easier to turn on my mill. Tool in the vice on parallels, center it with the saddle, cut with the knee. 3/8 rod in a r8 collet. And I can take bigger cuts.

 

[John Hasler]

Just to see for my self I tried it. I can say with out any question, it is in fact easier to turn on my mill. Tool in the vice on parallels, center it with the saddle, cut with the knee. 3/8 rod in a r8 collet. And I can take bigger cuts.

What do you do for a tailstock?

 

[BobC]

By no means is this meant to demean anyone with inexpensive machines, just a viable alternative.

To me the answer is simple. As is obvious from the opening post and every post after it, either machine could do the work that you've been doing by hand, one of them better for some parts and the other for the rest, so......

Unless money is no object, wait until you find that really great deal on either, then jump on it. Make searching the Penny Saver, want ad's, Craigs List, even local ebay, say a 100 mile radius, a frequent quest. More than any other thing, that will build up your shop in the shortest time and if you are discriminating, with a much better class of machines.

In the 60's, I bought my 1952, 12" Robling, (German) industrial floor model engine lathe. Watched it in the classifieds every day for several weeks, "moving must sell, $700". One day I read the same ad again, only now it was $300. I beat all the others to it and the lady said, "thank god, my husband is already 450 miles away at his new job and I have to be out of the house in 3 days. I hope you can lift that thing". Of course I could, I'd rented a 2,000 pound towable engine hoist. That deal set my buying style to this day. "moving must sell.. was what caught my attention.

It makes me sad when someone pays $1,200 for a Harbor Freight bench type "milling machine" that is very poor quality. I mean come on, we've all seen them in the store with parts falling off and assemblies that rock in place. I contrast that with my excellent 3,800 lb Kearney & Treaker #2H universal horizontal milling machine that cost me $400! Came with a bunch of tooling too.

My most expensive machine was my very good Index vertical milling machine. Got it for $1,200, now where'd I see that number before?

You'll never find the deals if all you do is wander the aisles of importers of toys made to the absolute bottom price-point.

It is not unusual to find very good older machines that even after decades of industrial use, are tighter than the cheap new imports, and can be found for amazing prices if you are diligent in your searching. My Covel 6 X 18 surface grinder with magnetic chuck cost me $150. In the paper for $300 for weeks. The owner had moved to New York years before and the guys he stored it with were moving.

I got my excellent, 900 lb Kysor Johnson 10" X 18" Model J horizontal bandsaw for $9.95! The local ebay seller wasn't pleased that he'd not set a minimum and that no one but me bid on it, uncommon but it happens. He had a big new automatic bandsaw and I said, "This older model J looks great, I'll bet you got a ton of good work out of it and it paid for itself several times over, right?" He brightened right up and said, "yes, you're right it's certainly paid for itself more than once, I just had to get the cutting automated." He had 3 new blades that I paid him $30 a piece for, making his "haul" $100 and he loaded it on my truck with his crane and good cheer. I thank that saw every day!

Exactly the same $9.95 for a local, (80 miles away) pedestal floor type, industrial Excello carbide tool grinder with a new diamond wheel, a good green wheel, built in coolant tank and tray and precision tilting, grooved for miter gage tables on each end. Wonderful having sharp tungsten carbide tools!

I paid $75 for my Sterling drill grinder, up to 3" diameter by 20" long drills. Same thing, watched it for weeks on Craigs list for much more. He got it free where he worked. Makes me feel rich when I open my rolling cart full of big sharp Morse taper drills all standing at attention.

I won't even tell you how little I paid for my fine 17" X 54" LeBlond engine lathe with 56 threading gear positions in the quick change gear box, 1-1/2" TPI to 184 TPI! I have no idea what I'll ever do with 184 TPI, or any of them over 40 TPI 'cept brag about it.) Might wind some precision coils of very fine wire?

Every machine in my shop except that Index vertical, I got for a song and that Index was a great deal. The $200 that I paid for NOS parts, that I built my 10HP rotary phase converter out of might have been the best buy of all. Without it, my most important machines would just be static displays. I drag strangers in off the street, point to the power poles bringing just two wires down the street, then at my RPC. "I make 3 PH power with that!" I boast gleefully.

One more tip, search for mislabled ads, sometimes a picture will tell you what it is, even if the seller doesn't know. Ad on ebay for "some kind of saw or??" from a large used office furniture company. Thumbnail pic looked a lot like a #1 U.S. Machine Tools horizontal, hand miller with a huge slotter blade on the arbor. Funny, none of the furniture buyers wanted it. You guessed it, got it for $9.95! ) The down side to this philosophy, you'll get beat on a lot of machines but to me, that's an OK trade-off.

Bob
Below, link to "some kind of saw....." on it's delightful home-coming.
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m85/CircRef/HMontrailer.jpg

 

[chuckorlando]

Oh brother I did not get that into it. I used a 4in long 3/8 rod I had and ran it just like it was hanging out the chuck. I honesty done it so I was not just talking out the side of my neck. Up untill then all I had was second hand info. So I tried it.

I would also say that when I say "turned" I mean just that. I simply faced it off and took .25 off. And it cut like butter. I would think a follow rest is best you could hope for doing what I just done.

What do you do for a tailstock?