Insert Tooling

[projectnut]

Like John and others, I much prefer HSS tooling to carbide. I have both, but find I use HSS more than 90+% of the time. For external threading I most often grind my own tooling, but I do like the Aloris #8 thread cutting tool holder and thread cutting blades. Aloris makes at least 3 different cutting blades depending on the TPI you want to turn.

When you compare the price of tool holders and tooling grinding HSS blanks and using standard tool holders is clearly the winner as far as cost is concerned.

Here's a link to an Aloris threading tool holder available from MSC

https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/09060765

Here's a link to some of the Aloris blades available from MSC:

https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/09061243

 

[Damn Yankee]

@mksj, your photo of those beautiful threads is where it's at! I know my skillset is not up to par as most, but those threads blow mine away in every respect. And when it comes to internal threads, I could spend all day at the wheel grinding, and ruin my project in a flash. You were kind enough to iterate through your fave tooling, offering part numbers and characteristics. This is where I get into trouble - PMC/TNMC, BMA, 6", 7" - it is all Greek to me. I don't know what it all means and have no point of reference with which to start selecting a tool. This ignorance is what brought me here.

@Jake M, I agree with what you are saying, but again, I don't know what works for me because I haven't a tool and haven't a tool because I don't know how to choose - ugh. You, amongst others have mentioned David Best's book. I've seen his work, have great respect for his skill, and would love to read the book. What is it called? Is it available retail or is it posted on H-M? I obviously have a LOT to learn regarding insert tooling.

@projectnut, you just exposed the extent of my ignorance. I thought my toolholders for HSS would accept the insert's bar (is that the right word???) but now find that my relatively inexpensive tool holders suddenly jumped 3x. I did not realize there was more to it - what is that extra piece/insert/bracket/doo-dad (might as well as get technical) and what is its function? I have no problem purchasing some toolholders - they are forever - but I am peeling an onion here, uncovering new layers of important info I had no idea existed.

Thanks to All,
John

 

[mmcmdl]

I believe David Best also uses the Kennametal Top Notch threading and grooving holders/threading inserts.

Can't top these as they come in sizes to fit any holder . The Aloris P blades are great also once you buy the holder . HSS with the convenience of simple sharpening when needed .

 

[Jake M]

@Jake M .....I've seen his work, have great respect for his skill, and would love to read the book. What is it called?

Sorry about that, I saw it mentioned already and assumed someone had linked to it. I don't know if this is the best way to buy it, but this is the first Google hit..... All the pertinent information for a meaningful search is there.

Introduction to Indexable Tooling for the Metal Lathe: A User Guide: Best, David P.: 9798753874993: Amazon.com: Books

Introduction to Indexable Tooling for the Metal Lathe: A User Guide [Best, David P.] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Introduction to Indexable Tooling for the Metal Lathe: A User Guide

www.amazon.com

It's retail. Very retail. And understandably so. Don't forget what I said though about getting help here. The forum as a whole might get a little testy about helping you figure stuff out every time you need something new or different, but nobody's gonna be put out at all to throw you a bone for the first one or two tool holders and some inserts. Well, maybe one or two search nazis who have forgotten how difficult it is to search when you don't actually know yet what it is that you don't know.. But even when/if they speak up, they don't get really get offended. Then you'll know better if you want to start tooling up, including investing in an expensive reference. And I'll be honest, I'm gonna stay out of that post, as my lathe is very, very different from yours, and I suspect (from reading, I don't know....), that like me, you'll want some inserts, but won't want to give up on hss either. Except I think your lathe is a little better suited, so the pros and cons balance won't skew as far as mine does.

 

[mksj]

David Best's book is very good at explaining the indexable tooling jargon and highly recommended, but once you follow the nomenclature it is pretty straight forward. The difficulty is figuring out what works best for one's machine. When it comes to inserts it gets even crazier because there are so many variants of the same style/type of insert, as well as the proprietary types that each manufacturer comes up with. At a hobbyist level, for the most part, you are less interested in maximizing metal removal and insert life, and the operating characteristics are very different than a production environment.

I switched to laydown threading inserts after trying the typical vertical type threaders, both with carbide and HSS inserts and not having very good results, and in some cases ruining the project at the final threading stage. The laydown type inserts as well as the captured/clamped inserts like the Kennametal support the insert better and in my experience hold-up much better. My previous lathe was a PM-1340GT, and it worked just as well with the laydown threading insert as current lathe which is much more stout. I have attached some recommendations on the indexable tool holders that I use, as a reference starting point. There is a range of tooling/inserts that is vast, and different approaches that one can take, the idea is to narrow down the choices and find out works for each machine. So this is just what has worked for me. The information attached is to help understand some of the nomenclature and some suggested tooling.

Laydown threading holders/inserts come in 4 variants, which has to do with external threading or internal threading, and then right hand threading and left hand threading. This has to do with the angle of the insert in the seat and the clearances of the insert. I just have the right hand threading holders, although I have cut left hand external threads with the right hand holder. See below, the left hand was a longer Allen bolt that I threaded the shank section, these were used as retaining axels for wheels.


On the Grizzly 1236 size lathe with BXA holders then I would recommend 5/8" indexable tool holders for threading so:
Insert Holders: I would get one for external threading and one for internal threading (Right Hand)
SER 0625 H16, SER is laydown threader, External threading, Right hand thread, H is the length, 16 is the size of the insert.
SIR 0625 P16, SIR is laydown threader, Internal threading, Right hand thread, P is the length, 16 is the size of the insert.

Inserts: These are what are called as partial threaders which cover a range of TPI. I would get two of each.
16 ER AG60 BMA, 16 is the size, External Right Hand thread, AG60 type and threading range, BMA is the coating (which is suitable most metals).
16 IR AG60 BMA, 16 is the size, Internal Right Hand thread, AG60 type and threading range, BMA is the coating (which is suitable most metals).

 

[Damn Yankee]

@Jake M, you previously gave me heed to what I may expect from some posts and I appreciate the follow-up. Thank you. I think every forum has the exceptions, but this forum is composed of both professional and hobbyists that coexist like no other forum. I have many interests and have been/am a member of numerous forums. There was a Ham Radio forum dedicated to high-power RF amplifiers that existed on Yahoo groups many years ago. There were two very knowledgeable, experienced members that had polar opposite opinions on a certain subject (destructive plate circuit oscillations - and the cure). They dominated the forum with their personal and unfounded attacks toward each other which eventually fractured the group into non-existence. In the end, they were both wrong for the wrong reasons, they made it personal, and they could not get out of each of their own Ego's way. What a pity and a colossal waste of everyone's time. You can see how long I have been a member on this stage and was so impressed with this Group that I invested in the forum as I had never encountered a group composed of so many kind and helpful people who were willing to go through (what must have been excruciating for them) whatever it took to help me or another "get the point". That is how much respect I have for All and kudos to each. Oh, and thank you for the title of Mr. Best's book. I will spend the rest of tonight tracking that publication down.

@mksj, I truly appreciate the time you put into laying out your suggestions for me. I now have a starting point I can use as a reference. You also gave me a bit of a 'crack' into the previously totally confusing nomenclature. The small bite you provided gave me a toehold, though I hope my life in the next day or so does not depend upon what "BMA" means in relation to other coatings (which I know are quite a few) . But I feel I am much more informed - what a great feeling that is!

To All - I am more knowledgeable than a few days ago. This holiday, I will purchase something and compare it at various speeds against HSS (on the same material). As always, you Folks are great. I look to the day when I can reciprocate.

John

 

[Jake M]

.....destructive plate circuit oscillations.....

I hate it when that happens. I thought ham radios were supposed to oscillate? But I digress.... I've got enough hobbies to keep me broke busy for the rest of my life. That one never got past the CB radio stage. Thinking back, in the very early 1990's, before the internet was a "social" place, the local CB community (not the truckers) was a pretty tight knit crowd By the mid 1990's it had degraded in almost exactly the same way as the forum you describe, (and many other forums across the modern internet) except voices instead of typed words. And handles instead of usernames. Right down to nuclear powered base radios that served no other purpose but to be able to key down anyone and everyone that they didn't feel like talking about how hard they were hitting and how awesome they sounded with their latest reverb adjustment.

 

[Damn Yankee]

Oh yes. The renegade days. I was a CB'er too. My handle was Starduster (Illegal). 4.5 Watts was not going to do it, so I home-brewed a 350W Class AB amplifier (Illegal). I used PDL quad beam on top of a three-story home "to get out" and to shoot skip (Illegal - not the antenna nor height, but the distance communicated). I had Browning Golden Eagle which I "opened-up" to "slide" between channels (Illegal). This opened bandwidth below Channel 1 which was out-of-band and clear except to those who could access it (Illegal). Sure was fun. After college, I threw my education to the wind to drive a truck. For two years it was pedal to metal, Good Buddy. More CB - Ugh.

I then moved to ham radio (N9RF, n9rf.com) and spent way too much money in hardware. Since Electronics was my field of education and general hobby, I was a builder and built to have the finest-performing station (particularly on 2 meters and 70 cm). It was gratifying, but what do you do when you achieve your goals - update them incrementally? Anyway, I haven't been active on ham radio for some years. My QTH (location) has changed and the terrain pretty much limits me to HF (High Frequency, 80 m to 10 m), a band whose noise is annoying to me. Besides, how many hobbies can one have?

You're right Jake, radio is supposed to oscillate, but only where it is desirable for it to oscillate. The forum argument I previously brought in question was fixated on a phenomenon called parasitic oscillation and on a few popular high-power tubes of the day (811A, 572B...). The oscillation was not the selected carrier frequency and would "run away", often leaving your amplifier letting out bangs and booms, or worse, magic smoke. The argument was two-fold - what was the root cause and the cure. As often happens in forums that are poorly or not at all moderated, the two main combatants pretty much took over the forum using personal attacks which were all unfounded and certainly unnecessary. In the end, slowly but surely, the group evaporated - a whole group gone because of Two.

That is something this Group does not seem to suffer much from. There may be a few, but from where I sit, virtually all are respectful and only want to help.

John