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Import Tool & Cutter Grinder

Discussion in 'TOOL GRINDERS & SURFACE GRINDERS' started by petertha, Nov 2, 2016.

  1. petertha

    petertha Canada H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Does anyone have a story or experience with the typical offshore tool & cutter grinders? Particularly the ebay /wholesaler Chinese clones of Taiwanese clones of what are probably today $6000 Deckel's or comparable vintage USA brands. I'm wondering if they just are rough around the corners but work OK with some TLC. Or if they are basically unsuitable basket cases & just not worth going down that path. Full disclosure: I am perfectly happy with my Taiwan lathe & mill. But I'm fearful of an out of balance vibrating craptrap for what these are intended for, more precision grinding of drills & endmills & such.
     

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  2. tweinke

    tweinke United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Seems no one has an opinion on these grinders. I have no clue but have wondered the same thing. Might be no one has on which means you get one and let us know how it works......:rolleyes:
     
  3. Sandia

    Sandia Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I have wondered as well.
     
  4. Hawkeye

    Hawkeye Canada Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Worst case - if the price is good enough, consider them a kit. Figure out anything that can be improved and work out a way to improve it. If you were going to make one from scratch, you would need to make all the parts. If one or two parts need to be remade, you are still ahead of the game.
     
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  5. wrmiller

    wrmiller Chief Tinkerer H-M Supporter-Premium

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    What Hawkeye said. My pistolsmith friend, who now owns a machine shop making parts for manufacturers, has one of these and he apparently uses the snot out of the thing. Yes there was some tuning/modifying involved, but so what? I'm seriously considering one now.
     
  6. petertha

    petertha Canada H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    That's my thinking too, hence the question. I'm not against making tools & there are some beautiful examples of ingenious T&C grinders out there. But on the reality side, a lot of machining time & materials purchased & I don't have a spare motor kicking around... all that adds up & these grinders have some funky geometry that would be a chunk of work to replicate in what are castings (particularly the swivel). then you have the feed dial & various other lead screw-like settings/dials/locks. Basically I want to use it for what its intended & get on with my projects.

    OTOH, we are talking a grinder here. What scares me a bit is the horror stories where the guy spins up his HF-type bench grinder & discovers a 0.1" run-out wobble... which he traces back to not the wheel but a warped shaft & tuna can bearings. I guess that's the 'kit' purchasing gamble. I've tried to filter search on some of the obvious keywords like Taiwan or Vertex. Even U2 U3 (what I think are Vertex series) , but I think that designation is also cloned by the clones. Heck, they are even getting sneaky & incorporating words like Vertex like or Mitutoyo like so its a bit of minefield. I'll mull this over for a bit & if I make a leap, will report findings.

    U2 clone
    http://www.ebay.ca/itm/U2-Universal...995765?hash=item280229f435:g:LLwAAOSwBahVOFiz

    Vertex
    http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Vertex-Grind...309771?hash=item2a54619d0b:g:ndEAAOSwMmBVpoyq

    Deckel (seriiously, listing for what my car is worth)
    http://www.ebay.ca/itm/LATE-MODEL-1...685307?hash=item3abe0de6fb:g:7tMAAOSwuAVWy4Sn
     
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  7. petertha

    petertha Canada H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Interesting. After some more searching, I'm starting to get the distinct impression of 'one manufacturer, 10 paint color re-distributer' syndrome.
    Here is a Grizzly
    http://www.grizzly.com/products/Tool-and-Die-Grinder/G0687?utm_campaign=zPage&utm_source=grizzly.com

    Distributer in Canada (complete with garage demo movie!) 1416 $C = ~1050$U
    https://www.accusizetools.com/2301-...-grinder-with-standard-accessories-110v-60hz/

    Typical of a whole bunch of ebay like this +/- various shipping costs
    http://www.ebay.ca/itm/U2-Universal...995765?hash=item280229f435:g:LLwAAOSwBahVOFiz

    I can definitely see myself using one of these, especially for many 1-off custom tools. The diamond wheels are actually pretty reasonable cost which brings up new possibilities of dressing carbides 7 similar.
     
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  8. benmychree

    benmychree United States John York H-M Supporter-Premium

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    These grinders are intended for sharpening single cutting edge engraving cutters with V type points and radius corners mainly and not particularly suited for end mill sharpening; my guess is that you would be disappointed with it's utility. A better investment would be an air bearing bench top endmill sharpener, like Darex. I had one in my shop and they are very simple to operate and have a large range of travel and capacity.
     
  9. Keith Foor

    Keith Foor Active Member Active Member

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    OK, here are some options depending on how well you are tooled up.
    And a couple things you really what to look for in a grinder or grinder setup.

    First thing that is about a must is it need to have 5C collets.
    Reason is that they are more abundant and have other shapes besides round.
    Something as silly as a 5/16 hunk of HSS for a cutter in a lathe can be set in a 5C collet and ALL the angles be set by the holder to do the grinding.
    You can simply set them up for each cut and cut several and then move on the the next cut.

    Now next question is do you have a surface grinder? If so you are farther ahead to grab a couple additional items and use the surface grinder an the grinder part. First thing to find is a bench mount air bearing end mill fixture that of course takes 5C collets. Second is a spin index. Now, a spin index of reasonable quality can possibly be modded to be an air bearing by drilling and tapping a hole for an air line. Most of them have some level of longitudinal movement and with a fabricated finger act as a reasonable end mill flute sharpener. Now if you go that route a sine plate would round out the requirements for end mills giving you the ability to grind the ends accurately. And of course a sine plate has other uses.

    The next thing to develop is a spindle holder for supporting spindles to hold large milling cutters for use in a horizontal mill. This may be as simple as a second matching spin index with a dead center mounted in a 5C collet. This setup will accurately (remember we are doing this on a surface grinder) sharpen and resize reamers as well as do any and all sort of OD grinding. Because you have 3 axis on a surface grinder you cover all the bases and if you get creative, you can build a plate that holds the spin index units that will give you X axis angle adjustment to OD grind tapers.

    Here's the thing with machining. There are always multiple ways of accomplishing a task. You have to think about what you have on the shelf before adding items to the shelf. In a professional machine shop there is a tool budget to purchase any and all sort of expensive devices that may never get used. I have been around more than a few shops that had a like new Darex sitting in the corner with dust all over it and the guys would just go grab a new end mill when the one they were using got dull. Drill bits are no different. I learned to sharpen drill bits by hand my freshman year of high school when they still had a shop class and vocational agriculture was MORE shop class. Of course now it's animal science and they learn about dirt and the mating habits of livestock and little else at least at the local high school. I hate this has happened as I learned 4 marketable trades in that class. Those being carpentry, welding, small engine repair and basic mechanics. But back to my point. Home shop guys don't have a big budget for Darex E90 grinders and purpose built T&C grinders. We have to figure out what we do have and put that to use to accomplish the task at hand. Sometimes there are options that we don't look at because we don't realize that the mechanics of two things are pretty much identical like a spindex and an air bearing based grinding fixture for end mills. Sure there are compromises with some of this stuff. But at least in my mind working it all out is half the fun.
     
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  10. petertha

    petertha Canada H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Thanks for the input Keith. Nope. I do not have a surface grinder. That sure would be a nice shop addition. maybe one day! I have a bench grinder & lathe/toolpost grinder.

    I've thought of different ways to reconfigure these existing machines into something that could profile special HSS cutters, sharpen drill bits, maybe even end mills (although that seems to be debatable as to how good or what kind of flutes etc.) It seems to me the magic is in the traversing assembly, not so much the grinding head. You need to be able to vary X, Y & Z and also facilitate a rotational component. I think that's the more expensive guts of the T&C grinders. I have seen some nice builds on this & other forums where people have ingeniously repurposed assemblies harvested from other applications like X,Y tables with fixtures. Or on the other extreme, scratch built / casting sets like a Quorn T&C. I suppose its like most things & boils down to personal decision - do you want to invest the time to make the machine and that provides satisfaction, or do you want to 'get' the machine & spend time making things from it. There is no right answer, just 'your' answer. :) When I look at those Asian units (which I think are largely based on Deckel's) there are a lot of castings, components, electrical, machined parts & maybe specialty spindle/bearings that would likely be hard to replicate from bar stock scrap for the selling price. I guess I just need to ask myself how often I would use it & for what purpose. Curious you don't see many used ones for sale that aren't beat to death. maybe the message there is when people get them they tend to keep them?
     
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  11. Keith Foor

    Keith Foor Active Member Active Member

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    Honestly people don't tend to get them to begin with. Case in point is a Darex. A new Darex is 2300 bucks and then you add the needed attachments. These are in big shops with big budgets. Home shop guys don't get them. And a lot of big shops don't even bother with them. They either send stuff out to be sharpened or they toss it and get new. The other part of this is some of the high end CNC gear will sharpen their own tooling so it can keep track of it's size and stay in tolerance. Figure if your .5 end mill gets .003 ground off it in a CNC mill you are now out .006 in places If you are trying to hold .001 your are really screwed. So if the machine does it and then probes the freshly sharpened tool, then its knows about the .003 and adjusts for it. So there are fewer of these things even ending up in a shop.

    As far as a beat and worn sharpener as opposed to a new import of questionable quality. One is about as good as the other in truth. tolerance on an air bearing is rather close for it to not have a ton of leak by. Now typically a spindex will have about as close tolerance as a cheap import air bearing. It will work but it 'consumes' a lot of air to work. But it can work if it's of any reasonable quality, and if you get a bit crazy and buy something like a spindex from Suburban Tool it's gonna be as tight as a good air bearing.

    As far as rebuilding a used tool or remanufacturing a cheap tool the effort is going to be the same and the same tooling is gonna be required. Your finish bore for the air bearing will need ground at a tolerance of .00X and the inner tube will also need to be ground at .00X for it to be round and square enough to be as good as a Darex or other similar unit. the Quorn takes care of some of that in their manufacturing process and you will not need to be able to get that precise to assemble the casting kit. But you will need to bore it and hold reasonable tolerance to get it together and operating correctly.


    I actually lucked into mine. I went and bought an ENCO import T&C grinder from a guy that had a Rochele (or something like that) end mill grinding fixture with an air bearing. He had a sharpening shop complete with optical comparators and high end ID and OD grinders and he gave me a hell of a deal on both of them... But these deals don't happen often and I actually paid less than half of what the fixture was really worth for it and the T&C grinder.

    Now I will also mention about a Darex or other high dollar unit. You can buy HSS end mills at machinery auctions for less than a penny on the dollar. Buckets of the things sell for $50 or less. One of the things that we need to do as home shop hobby machinists is figure out a good way to finance the purchase of machines, tooling and materials to feed our hobby. My personal way is building RPC's but I could easily go get a couple buckets of end mills (I ahve a couple now hence the reason I bought the T&C grinder and fixture. You can sharpen them up and assemble sets and sell them on eBay to fund your purchases of tooling and such. Keep an eye on bidspotter.com for machinery auctions with pallets of used tooling. They are out there all the time and it's a quick way to generate funding.
     
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  12. McRuff

    McRuff United States Active User Active Member

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    I'll post this information for this types of cutter grinder. I have not used one of the chinese clones, but I have used Deckel's, Scripta's, Alexander's and Gorton's for more than 30 years. True you cannot sharpen the sides of a normal end mill but you can sharpen the ends of them, you can also put radii on the corners for making bullnose end mills.
    You can make carbide spade drills of any size that will fit in the collet, you can make single lipped cutters with any form that you can imagine, trapezoidal, bullnose, ballnose and angles of any variety you want. You can make single side or 3 sided engraving tools. You can use them to custom size or to make a reamer.
    They are extremely useful and anyone who tells you are they are not knows nothing about using them. In shops that do engraving or mold work they are indispensable.
    I just stumbled onto a Scripta model about 3 weeks ago and bought it for $550, I have been wanting one of these for years but as said they are hard to find an tons of them have been scrapped because people were told they were useless.
     
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  13. rick9345

    rick9345 United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I use mine.
    As in any machining it is the set up with what's available in ones shop.
    Imagination can produce the set up.:)
     
  14. petertha

    petertha Canada H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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  15. GLCarlson

    GLCarlson United States Active User Active Member

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    For about the same $1k price, you can probably find a Rockwell Delta Toolmaker and accessories (aux table, centers, univise). Might need some restoration, might get lucky and not, might take some time to find one. A Toolmaker is just that: it'll grind anything. Literally. And it's a 6x12 surface grinder as well. Check e-Bay, but prices for machine tools there are usually stupid high. There's a Yahoo group that sometimes has leads to used machines. It's all heavy old iron, indestructible and totally restorable, designed to be maintained and used in a small shop.

    The Chinese stuff is a knock-off of the Quorn, for all practical purposes. Martin Model has castings, but it's months and months of effort plus cost of materials (say around $4-500).
     
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  16. ddickey

    ddickey United States H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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  17. Uglydog

    Uglydog United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I picked up a Pratt Whitney R8 Tool Cutter Grinder a couple weeks ago.
    I've been using a Pratt Whitney R6 if anyone has interest. 120v & 1 phase. PW collets included.
    The R6 is the same as the R8 with less travel.
    The Cincy Monoset copied the PW design (depends on whose history book you read).
    I haven't yet listed the R6 here or elsewhere as I wanted to get the R8 running first.
    Note: with some money down and if you pay for fuel. Delivery might be an option. Palatalizing certainly is an option.

    Daryl
    MN
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2016
  18. Reticle

    Reticle United States Swarf Registered Member

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    I just picked up one of these import grinders and am in the process of tearing it down for a big clean up. I'll post after I get it back together & running. There is a great blog from a guy who bought one new and immediately tore it down and rebuilt it. I can't post links yet, but it's on the SCHSM website.
     
  19. Uglydog

    Uglydog United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Like many items I've ended up with two Pratt Whitney Tool Cutter Grinders.
    I'll be keeping the larger R8. However, I've got the little sister she is an R6 with OEM collets similar to the one in the attached pic. Good condition! Price is negotiable and fair.
    Eventually, I'll get around to actually taking pics and posting it here. Likely not for a few months as I'll have more time to try to sell accumulating stuff come spring. Meanwhile she is kept warm and dry. If interested let me know. Delivery might be available this summer as she'd very easily fit in the bed of the pick up as the wife and I begin our summer camping travels. Or you could come here and spin the cranks.

    Daryl
    MN

    Note: This pic is a copy/paste of one currently on ebay. This is not the machine in my garage....
     

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  20. petertha

    petertha Canada H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Really looking forward to your inspect/rebuild findings & yes any other related links of interest. In the Stefan video I posted link, I thought he mentioned an actual improvement on import over the Deckel on the rotating bearing/bushing assembly? but I wasn't too clear on that detail. He made some other tweaks just to give you heads up.
     
  21. petertha

    petertha Canada H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    That's a healthy piece of iron! Here I was wondering what table I was going to strap a little import T&CG model to, ha-ha
     
  22. Silverbullet

    Silverbullet Active Member Active Member

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    I've never seen anything made by Pratt & Whitney that wasn't top shelf and made to be able to be rebuilt to new condition . Most don't even realize the quality of there machinery. There machinery builders , not copiers if you need proof it's all over the net and YouTube . If I ever had the chance to pickup anything built by them I'd jump on it. My only drawback is I've been disabled for forty years almost . I've always kept my shop with what I've had in it. But if ever one was offered I could trade or barter I'd get it . There'd be no copy or knock off . If you take your time to look you can find what you really want you may have to pay what the new copy cost but it's up to you.
    Seems American Made only worked fifty years ago. Buy cheap then throw away. I admit I'm a culprit of the age too. Harbor freight has gotten my business for years why my income . Some things I use grinder cut off wheels , at the prices they hold up well.
    I wouldn't doubt that before long they will be selling more machinery . As long as we keep having to paying thru the nose for insurances doctors hospitals and all the hogs on the gravy train we will buy China copies. But I'd still buy the used machine over New. Just my thoughts , I'd jump on Darryls machine if I could.
     
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  23. C-Bag

    C-Bag United States Active Member Active Member

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    Short reply, it works and does the ends nice. I have the attachment to do the flutes and haven't needed to do them yet. It's not perfect, it could use more length to get larger mills chucked up bu I've managed to find a simple workaround for everything so far and have saved all my bits and they work great. I got the one with R8 as that's what I have for my mill and so I can chuck up any size end mill router bit or drill bit which the metric won't. I've been able to sharpen my carbide router bits too. It came with a stone and a diamond wheel.

    But I had to go through a LOT of mucking about with the eBay seller to get thing ironed out. And because of the language barrier and time lag it took months to get it squared away. But of course after I got it some American made units started showing up but never for what I've got into it and all needed work. I needed a small machine and it fits the bill.
     
  24. petertha

    petertha Canada H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Thanks for input. You brought up another good point. I have a line on a Taiwan T&CG through Canadian distributer that uses ?forgot the style? slimmer collets typically found on these units & original Deckel's & such. The grinder is more expensive, possibly offset by quality, not sure on that yet.

    But I have a full set of R8 collets for my mill & thought it would sure be nice to use those vs. purchasing yet another system dedicated to this & essentially does the same thing. There are units as you've indicated that use R8 but they seem to be rarer & typically confined to Chinese origin, not Taiwan? I'm guessing that is an integral part of the spindle collet holder just like a mill so you have to choose that up front & live with it.

    Can you highlight some of the issues or shortcomings you experienced?
     
  25. C-Bag

    C-Bag United States Active Member Active Member

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    I wasn't sure how much info you wanted as this turned into a very involved process.

    I was told it would chuck up .750", when it got here it was the Deckel collets and I think they only go to 14mm. No Bueno. The other thing is this thing is HEAVY, almost 120lbs. The box with styrofoam was totally inadequate for cross country to the Left Coast from Canada. The foam in the bottom was beat to dust. There was some minor damage amazingly. When I pointed this out to the sales person it didn't go as large as she told me, she said I could send it back and exchange for an R8, as they have two show rooms here in CA, in LA , SF. But it would take 3 weeks There was no way I was going to ship it again when I showed her the damage that had already been done to the box because it would end up damaged.

    So I asked if the R8 head fits on the Deckel style slides and she said no problem, just send $60 for shipping. 3-4weeks later it shows up and nothing lines up. No Bueno. So she said there was a R8 machine at their LA show room and I could drive down and swap it. No offer of paying my gas, it would be another $100 because the other machine was more expensive. By now I've been doing this for 2mo. LA traffic was stupider than usual, turned out graduation was going on :(
    Got the machine home and it wasn't finished as nice as the other machine, but everything was there and worked. Then because they had told me they could make me " such a deal" on the attachment for the flutes for $60 I went for it. That took another 4wks+ and the sent me the attachment for doing drill bits instead!! So they of course we're sorry and said keep it they would send the flute attachment. That took another month but this time was right. It's pretty crude but my R8's fit. I can't say they didn't try, but if I'd been hurting for the machine it would have been very frustrating.
     
  26. coffmajt

    coffmajt H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Look up ATCO tool and cutter grinder on the internet, and you can find plans to build your own unit designed around a bench grinder. I bought the plans for about $36 US and spent about 3 months and about $600 for materials to build mine from the plans. The only thing I have modified from the original drawings is converting the end mill spindle fixture to an air bearing design, plus a different tooth support for end mill flute sharpening. I do all my drill bits, end mills, and carbide lathe tooling on the unit and have been very happy == Check it out -- Jack
     
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  27. C-Bag

    C-Bag United States Active Member Active Member

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    Petertha, having any luck/fun yet? Just curious. I'm starting to see the same machine being sold on CL in LA & SF for more than I paid for mine. Definitely the R8 machine is more expensive and harder to find
     
  28. petertha

    petertha Canada H-M Supporter - Premium Content H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Perfect timing. Availability through this particular vendor comes in mini batches, so I was on back order until recently. I just got delivery yesterday but had to source a dolly to wheel it. I'll open the shipping box here shortly & report findings.
     
  29. C-Bag

    C-Bag United States Active Member Active Member

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    That's hilarious, my spidy sense was tingling I guess! Hope everything goes smooth.
     
  30. Reeltor

    Reeltor United States Active User Active Member

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    Daryl,

    I assume that anything you have would be top notch and even better than the eBay offering. Beautiful example of American Iron. That thing looks huge :)

    Mike
     

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