I think most machinist want a cnc but for good reason and myth they are scared

[slowtwitch]

[h=1]Forum: CNC IN THE HOME SHOP[/h]If you have or want CNC in your home shop, this is the forum for you!



Need I say more, if you don't want or need a CNC ....why post on this forum. I don't get it

 

[fast freddie]

these are my reasons and my opinion
I was scared i was going to waste money i really didnt have on a machine that would be below standard and to complicated to learn.
so i started researching and found these problems for home cnc
1. there is no standard for the terms used by the manufactures of parts, the writers of software and just about every aspect of the building of your own cnc. I'm a auto mechanic and could not imagine a spark plug being called something else because another company made it. so for me to read most any literature on cnc i needed a list of terms and definitions to figure out each sentence. and that list is for just that manufacture. thats a lot of lists
2. ok it's killing our economy but without the chinese only the fortune 500 companies can do this and that brings us to translation. this guy in china reads chinese well but does not understand how the sentence translates into a readable english or any language for that matter to form a sentence so lets just pic an english word and put it down. no matter how you read it "cintered canine and crushed paste of yellow zest" is not a "hotdog with mustard"
3. wiring. just about anyone mechanical can modify the machine and do a good job , make it accurate with low cost ballscrews because cnc compensates for backlash automaticly when set up properly. the fact is wiring a cnc is as easy as playing with batterys , lightbulbs and switches like you probably did as a kid. here is the catch anyone can connect wire a to terminal b as per the instructions. nope the breakout board instructions say connect a wire from step+ on the breakout board to step+ on the motor controller. what is the controller i have a driver and it does not have the word step on it anywhere. it says pulse. your thinking magic smoke. the fact is the driver is the controller and step and pulse mean the same thing. so wiring now is a nightmare for the same reason as item 1. terms and standards.
4 learning the cad and cam programs and their cost. you are not nasa you need a cad software that draws circles squares rectangles ect where you want, then the size you want them, and saves in a dxf format. thats free online everywhere i use emachine shop it is so simple you draw the box and up at the top you say the box is here in x and y and it is this high and that wide thats it. drop a circle on the end delete the unneeded lines an you have a bullet. cam software same thing you want simple and low to no cost. are you really needing a software that cuts 5 axis in full blown 3d i cant even think 5 axis yet.
i have a bunch of free programs all limited but when you have them all you can do almost everything.
unless you want to just make scrap you wont write complete programs to finish a complex part in unending steps you very quickly pick the cut from the drawing and tell it the cutter size left right or on center, depth per pass and total depth. run it. thats good pick the next pocket corner and
continue. It is faster than reading prints mounting rotory tables and turning cranks and it dont get tired. It's working, your on the lathe making something else.
just my opinion and i guess you can tell i like cnc or anything i can make behave with my pc
if i could just mount steppers on my wife what a life this would be.
What Do You Think
steve

i'm just not smart enough, its rocket science to me -------------- freddie

 

[David Kirtley]

Just because they make motorcycles, doesn't mean that everyone wanting to ride a bicycle is wrong. They are not the same thing. It is not a matter of it being expensive or scary, fast or slow, new or old fashioned. It is a process. It's not just about making a product. CNC and manual machining have different approaches, different paces, and different work flows.

I do things like this because I enjoy it. I was out in the garage last night until almost 1:30am starting on a new QCTP for my lathe. The process is why I was doing it. It doesn't matter if it takes me a while to build it. I don't even need another one. It is just something I wanted to try. Like most things I make for fun, it would have been much faster and cheaper if I had just bought it.

How would my time been more enjoyable if I had done it with a CNC machine rather than manual machines?

Don't get me wrong. I really enjoy CNC stuff too but, it is an apples and oranges comparison.

 

[Bill Gruby]

Forum: CNC IN THE HOME SHOP

If you have or want CNC in your home shop, this is the forum for you!



Need I say more, if you don't want or need a CNC ....why post on this forum. I don't get it

It is my belief that the heading on this thread leaves it open to those that do and those that don't have CNC in the shop. Now, when someone comes along and states he knows why we don't have it in two specific reasons, it deserves to be answered. I did, in the most polite way I could.
Please do not get the idea that I am against CNC. I am not. It's just not my thing and not because of intimidation or money.

"Billy G" :lmao:

 

[Cuzzun_itt]

I wasn't picking on anything in particular. I had not seen ProtoTrack. Looks like a nice product. I was mostly coming from the direction that you can get USB rotary encoders for $40. They use them all the time for volume controls on car computers. Less fancy encoders are like $4 at Sparkfun with LED lights and stuff already on them. The rest is just organization of the software.

No no David, I didn't mean you were picking on anything, I just meant the ProtoTrak
has everthing you described. They are really nice machines. But in my opinion you
could get much more for the money,like a tool changer.

I will never buy a CNC mill without a tool changer, or a lathe without a chip conveyor and part
catcher.

My little home shop seems to attrack small production runs.

I don't do many onezy's or toozy's but it's fun on some projects bikes , hotrods
guns. I do other stuff to pay for the fun stuff.

Itt

 

[jumps4]

my grandfather was a cabinet/furniture wooden clock maker and so was his father, i could only imagine my grandfather and his dad comparing hand made to machine made furniture and how you dont really get a feel for the wood with a power saw ripping it apart and shapers molding the edges.
my great grand father didnt live long enough or he might have had to face that fast paced world of power saws and drilling machines.
complaining once to my grandfather when he was a kid he said " the way this world is going , the next thing you know they will be charging us for water"
when i was a kid they offered me typing or spanish as a class in school i could not understand any use for either at the time but i wish i would have done it now.
some still make furniture and clocks all by hand and it is an art and so is manual machining, a real art requiring deep concentration, planning and coordination. these are all the reason i went to cnc i have none of the required attributes. my manual work was below par and i need an answer or go back to woodworking. as far as it being hard I could not spell "cnc" 5 years ago now i'm very comfortable with the machines and understand how everything is supposed to work and it didnt take college to get to where i am. just a lot of online research and accepting failure as a learning tool.
projects made by hand like the stephens favorite just leave me in awww all the setups and rotary table work is amazing. everything i see being done i could do with cnc probably but it would not hold the same value to me as if i had done it by hand. there is a lot of enjoyment in that type of machine work and for the most part i just spit out parts for what ever i'm building my enjoyment is when everything fits and it works.
if my back would have not gone bad i'd probably still be running my manual machines but i cant stand in one place long and i had to find an answer. and i'm very happy i did or i'd probably be sitting in a rocker watching oprah ( shoot me please ) just waiting to go to bed.
just my thoughts
steve

 

[Bill Gruby]

You said a mouthful Steve, thank-you.

"Billy G" )

 

[Bill Gruby]

I will make this brief. I have now been asked via PM why I am in this thread because of my negativity. I am not negative toward CNC now or ever have been. That takes care of that question.

Now why am I here? I refer you to the menu page. At the bottom of the CNC in the home shop Board is a list of Moderators. I believe one of them is me. If while I am moderating I see a question that needs answering and I can, I DO.

Are there any other questions I can answer for any of you? If not I now return you the the regularly scheduled program. Play nice, the world is watching.

"Billy G" Global Moderator )

 

[scleaf]

Hard to post after the last one,

Each person is entitled to their opinion providing it is not offensive or attacking to others. The way I am looking at this is the original post was stating some sort of fear factor, but there are the old school machinist and new school machinist with different opinions, skills or lack there of. I think the purpose of NC was to assist the machinist by reducing time it takes to make parts, cut labor cost by allowing less skilled machinist to make more complex cuts buy removing the skill needed. Look at 4th and 5th axis and the complexity is far greater than some human minds like mine can comprehend. It would appear that you would need to be a rocket scientist to design the rocket, machine the rocket, launch the rocket and if you are using a 5th axis machine have a PHD in math and computer science.

Watched a video of a 5 axis machine cutting a full scale model of a car with real contours and with such detail. It was like watching a ninja slice a watermelon. Without CNC it would be like filling up the Queen Mary with a normal gas pump. The job will get done, but how old will the operator be when it was! Quite amazing!

With that said, I am happy I have CNC with the ability for manual milling as I am learning, not an experienced machinist yet. I can understand geometric designs/tolerances, able to read and understand a blue prints and do math in my head to some degree. My hats off to you old timers who have made the parts, technology and knowledge available for us to leverage. You are the pioneers and have earned the respect notably due to you. I personally consider myself a settler who wants to now become a pioneer myself.

Believing in advancement, evolution, and change with the understanding that people are set in their ways and are less likely to change their thinking unless they want to. I have three young adult sons, and with all the time I have spent in the garage, one would think they might take an interest. We talked of making a part only to see the part was purchased and installed on the car already. Seems this generation now wants instant gratification and is not willing to take the time to start from a block of metal. I look at CNC as Instant gratification, from thought, to code to cutting the part. It is practical. Look at 3d printing. Some day that will be metal (actually already here).

Being a first generation internet surfer and former BBS operator, I use the internet like a bible or dictionary. When I seek knowledge I surf and thus that is why I am here seeking knowledge. I could read a book, take a class, watch a video, but will not get the lessons learned, tips and tricks. Anyone with a little money can buy a mill/CNC machine, put it in their garage and cut parts (me being proof). If in the end the parts have the same properties and tolerances, one would not know if the experienced machinist or the CNC operator made the part. The only person that would know is the person that made the part.

Just my opinion, I am entitled Sorry for the rambling!

 

[Kevin45]

Hard to post after the last one,

Each person is entitled to their opinion providing it is not offensive or attacking to others. The way I am looking at this is the original post was stating some sort of fear factor, but there are the old school machinist and new school machinist with different opinions, skills or lack there of. I think the purpose of NC was to assist the machinist by reducing time it takes to make parts, cut labor cost by allowing less skilled machinist to make more complex cuts buy removing the skill needed. Look at 4th and 5th axis and the complexity is far greater than some human minds like mine can comprehend. It would appear that you would need to be a rocket scientist to design the rocket, machine the rocket, launch the rocket and if you are using a 5th axis machine have a PHD in math and computer science.

Watched a video of a 5 axis machine cutting a full scale model of a car with real contours and with such detail. It was like watching a ninja slice a watermelon. Without CNC it would be like filling up the Queen Mary with a normal gas pump. The job will get done, but how old will the operator be when it was! Quite amazing!

With that said, I am happy I have CNC with the ability for manual milling as I am learning, not an experienced machinist yet. I can understand geometric designs/tolerances, able to read and understand a blue prints and do math in my head to some degree. My hats off to you old timers who have made the parts, technology and knowledge available for us to leverage. You are the pioneers and have earned the respect notably due to you. I personally consider myself a settler who wants to now become a pioneer myself.

Believing in advancement, evolution, and change with the understanding that people are set in their ways and are less likely to change their thinking unless they want to. I have three young adult sons, and with all the time I have spent in the garage, one would think they might take an interest. We talked of making a part only to see the part was purchased and installed on the car already. Seems this generation now wants instant gratification and is not willing to take the time to start from a block of metal. I look at CNC as Instant gratification, from thought, to code to cutting the part. It is practical. Look at 3d printing. Some day that will be metal (actually already here).

Being a first generation internet surfer and former BBS operator, I use the internet like a bible or dictionary. When I seek knowledge I surf and thus that is why I am here seeking knowledge. I could read a book, take a class, watch a video, but will not get the lessons learned, tips and tricks. Anyone with a little money can buy a mill/CNC machine, put it in their garage and cut parts (me being proof). If in the end the parts have the same properties and tolerances, one would not know if the experienced machinist or the CNC operator made the part. The only person that would know is the person that made the part.

Just my opinion, I am entitled Sorry for the rambling!

In defense of ones that don't care for CNC, or even the ones that do like CNC, what they don't tell you about the numbers in saving time is how long did it take to program the part. CNC does, or is at least supposed to give you consistency. Once there are many long hours spent on a program and the tweaks to the program, then it can be given to any button pusher on the floor as long as he knows how to chuck that part up. When I was in Tool Design, we were always told to make things idiot proof. A term that is not allowed in the shop today. But what CNC has done to a lot of factories, is it got rid of the skilled workers. Shops now can hire anyone off the street that remotely act like they want a job, give them a **** test, a badge and a pair of safety glasses and call them a machinist.

I don't care what anyone says, and you can't convince me that the person they hired in yesterday and pushes the "Start" button, is a machinist. I have personally watched my shop bring in people, put them behind a machine, then walk away without training. They let them learn by asking other employees, or learning by mistakes. Three years ago, we were really busy at work and they hired in quite a few temps. Put them behind machines, and turned them loose. My main job at that time was building and repairing dies. The die department at our plant had 10 people, three who were temps. I kept a log of every die I worked on, whether it was a new build from scratch, whether it was a repair due to a broken punch of needing a sharpening, or whether it was a broken die that needed a new die shoe and total rebuild. In that year, I ordered something like 170 brand new steel die shoes of various sizes to rebuild the dies complete, approximately 500 dies that needed broken components fixed, and maybe 200 dies that just needed sharpening. Some of our dies were small and some were quite large. Most of the broken dies were done out of shear stupidity of not paying attention. There were even older employees that really should have been taken out of the department and given nothing more than a broom and a dustpan to work with. Our shop makes aircraft lighting, so there are many components that will go into one light. We had one die person running reflectors, maybe 2" in diameter and spherical in shape. Nothing big about it at all. When the broken die shoe came over to be rebuilt, naturally I asked what happened. The operator said he couldn't figure out where his parts were going. He kept running them but couldn't find the parts. It's amazing as to how you can split hardened steel. He set the die up on parallels because of the large hole in the bolster plate, and the parallel was right under the clearance hole on the die shoe. The steel die shoe was cracked 3/4 of the way through and the die components split in multiple pieces. IIRC, there were around 25 blanks wedged in the die. Other times, the temps would set a die up and forget to tighten the top portion of the die. One or two parts would run then the top portion would rotate slightly. You can imagine what happens when a 60 ton press comes down and the guide pins and bushings are not lined up. Amazingly, no one got hurt, and I do not know how they kept from getting hurt. The other thing is that managements hands were tied when it came to reprimanding an individual.

And as time goes on, there will be less and less skilled workers. Todays mindset is that everyone needs to be computer literate and have a college degree. You can't get a job without a high school diploma, a GED is almost worthless anymore, an Associates Degree hold basically the same worth as a High School Diploma did a few years ago. A Bachelors Degree might get you behind a desk depending on the place of employment. I don't understand it because I have never been through college, but we have some engineers, designing components for Military and Commercial aircraft that have a degree in Agriculture. About the only skilled trade anymore, where you actually have to learn a skill seems to come from ones that didn't have money to go to college and were lucky enough to get into a place a few years back by knowing someone or having a family member working there, or had the knowhow to start their own business. Hopefully someday, more manufacturing will come back to the U.S. and we will start teaching people again how to learn a skill. But then again, maybe because I'm getting older and starting to be old fashioned, that I just don't get it now, in todays world.