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I Got Money Burnin' A Hole In My Pocket

Ironken

Active Member
Active Member
#1
Ok gentlemans, I had my heart set on a PM1030V. We all know the 1030v's specs and no stand available coming in at just south of $2300 on fleabay. Cash in hand, ready to order. I need some spiritual guidance.......

I know Matt over at QMT is legit! No worries there. But, there is a but. I happened upon this http://www.dropros.com/DRO_PROS_Weiss_Lathes.htm over at DRO PROS. The pic is not an accurate rep of what they will be getting on 11/15. The specs below their 10x30 are mostly accurate. It has a SEPERATE feed rod and 1100w of power (more than PM, I think if 1100w equates 1.5hp). I reserved a machine and stand. It is sold by Weiss.

Sooo.....what are you guys' thoughts? Any thoughts would be appreciated.
 

mikey

Active User
H-M Supporter-Premium
#2
I have a few questions:
  • What kind of chuck mount does it have? This will determine how much flexibility you will have buying chucks from other makers. Fingers crossed that it is a camlock spindle.
  • Threading range - will it cut the full range of threads they list or does it come with a full set of change gears for Imperial and Metric? Does it come with a thread dial indicator?
  • Are the gears hardened and ground?
  • Power feed on cross feed? Not that critical but nice to have at times.
  • Is a carriage stop available or do you need to make one?
  • Is the VS motor a DC motor or 3-phase with VFD? This matters in how much torque is available at low speeds.
  • The compound mount looks a lot like the 2-bolt ring on the old 9 X 20's, which was notorious for lacking rigidity. Might have to make your own 4-bolt ring.
  • Is power feed in X done with the leadscrew? I don't see a separate drive rod ...
  • It looks like the lathe bolts to the cabinet and the lathe must be leveled with the cabinet or with shims. I don't see adjusters on the lathe feet.
  • Can't see a sight glass on the headstock so I assume the spindle gear train is greased, not run in an oil bath?
I would personally want to know all of this before buying one. I'm sure there are other questions to ask but this is off the top of my head. I'm trying to relate this to one of the established lathe designs because most asian lathes are copies of an already successful design but I can't pin it.

Regardless, it looks like a nice lathe and that VS really makes it attractive. I hope it works out well for you!
 

tmarks11

Active User
Active Member
#3
Fingers crossed that it is a camlock spindle.
Not a chance. The only new machines I have seen smaller than the 12x24 or 12x36 range with a camlock chuck was the (discontinued) South Bend (Grizzly) SB1001 9" lathe.

to the OP: separate feed rod on this class of machine is a huge plus. Should be a nice machine.

Just one caveat: if you have the additional money and the space, stepping up to a 12x24 or 12x36 lathe gets you a real Quick Change Gearbox (the ones in machines this size are crippled), and a camlock chuck. Both huge advantages.
 
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Ironken

Active Member
Active Member
#4
I have a few questions:
  • What kind of chuck mount does it have? This will determine how much flexibility you will have buying chucks from other makers. Fingers crossed that it is a camlock spindle.
  • Threading range - will it cut the full range of threads they list or does it come with a full set of change gears for Imperial and Metric? Does it come with a thread dial indicator?
  • Are the gears hardened and ground?
  • Power feed on cross feed? Not that critical but nice to have at times.
  • Is a carriage stop available or do you need to make one?
  • Is the VS motor a DC motor or 3-phase with VFD? This matters in how much torque is available at low speeds.
  • The compound mount looks a lot like the 2-bolt ring on the old 9 X 20's, which was notorious for lacking rigidity. Might have to make your own 4-bolt ring.
  • Is power feed in X done with the leadscrew? I don't see a separate drive rod ...
  • It looks like the lathe bolts to the cabinet and the lathe must be leveled with the cabinet or with shims. I don't see adjusters on the lathe feet.
  • Can't see a sight glass on the headstock so I assume the spindle gear train is greased, not run in an oil bath?
I would personally want to know all of this before buying one. I'm sure there are other questions to ask but this is off the top of my head. I'm trying to relate this to one of the established lathe designs because most asian lathes are copies of an already successful design but I can't pin it.

Regardless, it looks like a nice lathe and that VS really makes it attractive. I hope it works out well for you!
I'll answer with what DRO Pros told me....

First, the pics are old on their site.

Chuck is direct mount.

Threading range....I don't know

Gears.....Don't know

Power feeds in both directions in both axis.

Seperate feed rod

I have yet to see any of these small chinese lathe cabinets come with adjustable feet.....that would be slick though.

Gear box is wet lube.

All great questions you brought up, thanks!
 

Ironken

Active Member
Active Member
#5
Not a chance. The only new machines I have seen smaller than the 12x24 or 12x36 range with a camlock chuck was the (discontinued) South Bend (Grizzly) SB1001 9" lathe.

to the OP: separate feed rod on this class of machine is a huge plus. Should be a nice machine.

Just one caveat: if you have the additional money and the space, stepping up to a 12x24 or 12x36 lathe gets you a real Quick Change Gearbox (the ones in machines this size are crippled), and a camlock chuck. Both huge advantages.
I agree with you on all of the above!

I really like the seperate feed rod design and you are absolutely right in the fact that a 12x36 or larger would be better. My pockets aren't deep enough right now and not having a lathe is hindering me on some simple projects so.......the smaller machine wins. Making sparks is what is making me a few bucks and I am always adding to the welding side of things so, the machining side gets the stepchild treatment.
 

brav65

Active User
H-M Supporter-Premium
#6
I like DRao Pros, Brian is a nice guy and helpful, but I would only buy from Matt because of his service. He has earned my business with the best customer service that I have ever received from a vendor. Just my 2 cents!
 

mksj

Active User
H-M Supporter-Premium
#7
I would look at the PM128, Sieg, Weis are brand names not manufacturers. Each distributor has a different set of build specs and QA, so machines can look similar and yet be very different. Descriptions and pictures can often be lacking, also worth while to see what others have posted as to their experience.

I would look at the PM1228, I believe it is a variant of the Sieg SC10 model, but there are differences. I like DRO Pros, but I think Quality Machine Tools version offers more and more post purchase support. I am not aware that Grizzly sells anything comparable with the features and price level. Still these are built to a price level, so expect to put some work into any of these machines setting them up.
http://www.machinetoolonline.com/PM-1228VF-LB.html
http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/the-pm-1228-vf-lb-arrives-today.49977/
 

Ironken

Active Member
Active Member
#8
I would look at the PM128, Sieg, Weis are brand names not manufacturers. Each distributor has a different set of build specs and QA, so machines can look similar and yet be very different. Descriptions and pictures can often be lacking, also worth while to see what others have posted as to their experience.

I would look at the PM1228, I believe it is a variant of the Sieg SC10 model, but there are differences. I like DRO Pros, but I think Quality Machine Tools version offers more and more post purchase support. I am not aware that Grizzly sells anything comparable with the features and price level. Still these are built to a price level, so expect to put some work into any of these machines setting them up.
http://www.machinetoolonline.com/PM-1228VF-LB.html
http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/the-pm-1228-vf-lb-arrives-today.49977/
I get that Weiss is just branding machines built in one of many noodle factories. The price tag for the 1228 is getting real close to a 12x36. For me the 12x36 hands down. As far as post purchase setup.....yeah, been there with a couple Grizzly products. But, now I have more experience than desired disassembling Chinese/Taiwanese crap.
 
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juiceclone

Active Member
Active Member
#9
The factory shown in the pix is Sumore Tools in Shanghai. I have a 3in1 from them I imported myself, and it has performed well in the 5 years I've had it. U might look up their website for a little more info. There are a lot of models shown and maybe DRO would import whatever u want?
 

tmarks11

Active User
Active Member
#10
I would look at the PM1228
That is $1300 more than the machine the OP is looking at. If he was will to spend $3000 for a lathe, I would be strongly suggesting he go for a 12x36 model that has a real (Norton) QCGB (or a Grizzly 12x24 if he didn't have space).

The question to answer is what other lathes should he look at that are near that $1700 price point.
1. Grizzly 11x26 at $1500. No power cross feed, no separate feed rod, no variable speed.
2. Grizzly 1022V at $1700. No power cross feed, no separate feed rod.
3. PM1030V at $1800. No power cross feed, no separate feed rod.

I would strongly recommend that the OP gets a photo of the actual lathe DROPros is selling, showing the separate feed rod, prior to purchase, just to make sure there is no mis-communication. I haven't seen any Weiss WM250V photos online that show this configuration.
http://www.weiss.com.cn/products_detail/productId=51.html

A
lso, if you do buy from DROPros, recommend (if you can swing the cash) you buy a DRO at the same time. Having one on a lathe is a glorious thing, and the 25% discount they are offering is nice.
 

Ironken

Active Member
Active Member
#11
Juiceclone: This is what I was looking for! Thanks for sharing your experience. I don't quite have the moxy to import myself.
 

Ironken

Active Member
Active Member
#12
That is $1300 more than the machine the OP is looking at. If he was will to spend $3000 for a lathe, I would be strongly suggesting he go for a 12x36 model that has a real (Norton) QCGB (or a Grizzly 12x24 if he didn't have space).

The question to answer is what other lathes should he look at that are near that $1700 price point.
1. Grizzly 11x26 at $1500. No power cross feed, no separate feed rod, no variable speed.
2. Grizzly 1022V at $1700. No power cross feed, no separate feed rod.
3. PM1030V at $1800. No power cross feed, no separate feed rod.

I would strongly recommend that the OP gets a photo of the actual lathe DROPros is selling, showing the separate feed rod, prior to purchase, just to make sure there is no mis-communication. I haven't seen any Weiss WM250V photos online that show this configuration.
http://www.weiss.com.cn/products_detail/productId=51.html

A
lso, if you do buy from DROPros, recommend (if you can swing the cash) you buy a DRO at the same time. Having one on a lathe is a glorious thing, and the 25% discount they are offering is nice.
Your thought process is exactly how I eliminated Grizzly and shyed away from PM. I completely agree that some pics of the actual lathe are in order and I'm sure DRO will send me some when it arrives before I send $. I'm hoping that this unit is the imperial version of this. http://www.rogitrading.com/products/weiss-lathes/wm250av-f

The DRO would be slick but, I am in the market for a push/pull gun for my big Miller. They cost almost as much as this toy lathe. You are correct, If I had $3700 in my pocket....the PM1236 would be mine without question!
 

Heckle and Jeckle

Active Member
Active Member
#13
Not a chance. The only new machines I have seen smaller than the 12x24 or 12x36 range with a camlock chuck was the (discontinued) South Bend (Grizzly) SB1001 9" lathe.

to the OP: separate feed rod on this class of machine is a huge plus. Should be a nice machine.

Just one caveat: if you have the additional money and the space, stepping up to a 12x24 or 12x36 lathe gets you a real Quick Change Gearbox (the ones in machines this size are crippled), and a camlock chuck. Both huge advantages.
Here is one, I just benched it today
http://www.machinetoolonline.com/PM-1228VF-LB.html
 

qualitymachinetools

Active User
H-M Supporter-Premium
#15
Just a couple of things:

1. The PM-1030 at that price includes shipping and quick change tool post set, etc. To compare more, the 1030V on the web site is $1899.
If you are saying that they have a 10x30 with brushless motor, separate feed rod, and its not missing anything (Like a headstock ha ha) and they are at $1699, then buy it. There is no way I can touch that price for a machine like that. BUT from what I have found, if I can't touch the price, there is something thats just not right. - And if you are up in the 11x30 and they got it mixed up with the 1030, well our 1127VFLB has all of that, plus quick change tool post, etc. And its now a VFD controller motor, no more DC on that 1127. I like that lathe, if that 11x27 had a good quick change gearbox, and camlock spindle, Id love it. (Thats why we have the 1228 now, but you see the price is up there with the 1236)
Also ask DRO pros how a quick change tool post will work on their machine, thats important too.

2. The PM-1030V DOES have power cross feed. And the feeds run off of the key like south bend used to do, so its the same as a separate feed rod, not wearing the threads when using the half nut for feeds like some small machines do.

3. I can not say a bad thing about DRO Pros. A good bunch of guys. HOWEVER, weiss is a completely different story. I was really disappointed when I saw those guys getting involved with weiss, since I like those guys. I worked with weiss for a bit. Not good at all.

4. Sumores web site is a trading company. They have machines on there from probably 10 or more different factories. Not that its a bad thing, but for a small machine like this, there is no way you can import it and save any money by the time you figure in customs brokers, insurance, ocean shipping, inland freight, etc. - If they have something you like, no problem, as juiceclone seemed to have good luck with them, but there are a lot of variables to get right. And if they dont, youre out of luck. And not sure where you would get parts if you need them.

5. Im working on a small lathe but the factories keep fighting me. I want a D1-3 or D1-4 camlock, (Which D1-4 is coming on the 1127 soon) but still hounding them and working on a quick change gearbox. Problem is, with all of this, the price creeps up and up.

6. I need to clone myself, because I am also working with the foundry on patterns for things I Want to do, and putting more attention in to larger machines (Like our 1340GT and 1440GT) but Id like to get these smaller lathes situated. Im workin on it!

7. Save up and get the 1236 now, instead of buying a smaller one, selling it, and then getting the 1236 (Haha just kidding)
 

Ironken

Active Member
Active Member
#16
Dammit Matt, now you got me thinking! To be honest, your 10x30 was the target. What swayed me was the availibility of a stand (I want a stand dammit! lol) and the seperate feed rod and supposedly more powerful motor.

Support is huge and your record speaks for itself. If I could divert more money from the welding side of my little shop, your 1236 would be mine. Unfortunately the welding makes more money than the machining will for me.

The Grizzly 1236 gunsmithing lathe is on sale now but, Grizzly won't get any more of my cash......ever! A G0695 debacle done killed that for me. Had I not been persistant (more so than I should have ever had to), I would have had a $4200 boat anchor. Which further drives me toward your product.

Matt, now you've done got me all confused. I'll get ahold of you tomorrow.......save me one please!
 
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3dshooter80

Master of Metal Malpractice
Active Member
#18
Matt will definitely steer you in the direction for what fits your situation. For my needs the 1127 has been fantastic. There are only two things I would change on the machine. 1) a quick change gear box, and 2) I would utilize a wider pulley for the drive train so that a wider belt with a bit more grip could be utilized. Now, for a newbie, that belt slipping has saved my bacon on two occasions where a gear head lathe would have done some damage, so I guess it isn't all bad.
 

3dshooter80

Master of Metal Malpractice
Active Member
#21
Tmarks, I have been kicking around that idea myself for quite a while. A buddy of mine got the newer version with the AC motor and VFD and it has a wider belt / pulley arrangement. I have been toying with the idea of making a new pulley set up, but haven't gone any further than that.
 

tmarks11

Active User
Active Member
#22
I have been toying with the idea of making a new pulley set up, but haven't gone any further than that.
What is the size of the vee belt on there? A typical vee belt should have no problem with 2-3 HP as long as the drive pulley isn't too small. My G0709 had two drive belts and I took one off, and it hasn't slipped once even when the motor bogged down on to aggressive of a cut.
 

Ironken

Active Member
Active Member
#25
20161125_162305.jpg 20161125_145335.jpg 20161125_145405.jpg

Well boys.....it's here and leveled. Matt sold me some left over 1228 stands. No brace or filler piece with the deal on these stands so I fabbed some up. Put a crappy Earl Scheibe paint job on the parts and socked them on.