I found a VN12

stoneaxe said:
Ok, I re-read this thread once more- sounds like the just the bore was altered? Did I understand right there is no keyway in the spindle?
...
Click to expand...
Yup, some genius bored out the spindle to take the body of an R8 collet, but left the 'C' taper. I believe that the portion of slot for the key is still in the taper, but the rear part would have been machined away. The key I was asking about is the key that an R8 spindle has to keep the collet from turning as the drawbar is tightened. Our genius didn't bother with that either.

This is a clear-cut case of machine tool abuse, if you ask me. :angry:

Cal
 
Short version review:

The spindle is bored out to R8, the tapers are still C. The only keyway present is for the little VN C key (key missing). Some kind of non-sheep, non-goat situation was being used to "sort of" drive R8 tooling.

One of my ideas is to re-grind the R8 up some more to get the tapers right. Its the cheap way out of the issue. But non-hardened spindle is not so hot. This is also stepping further away from going back to C (5V).

Forward:
I suppose I should also put CAT30 on the table too - if the spindle has enough "meat" on t bone to do it.

I was thinking about a community generated CAD spindle - I would be happy to shop them out and make up a few extras. I don't think my version of Alibre exports to .DWG natively but you can get there from here with some utilities. (I had to move a file to .DWG a few years back and got it done)

I understand that C takes more torque than R8 - but I see that I will need to make my arbors anyway (I have cutters for 1" and 1.25" in my kit today). I can simply make them with "ears" to match up to the notches on my spindle face today. So from where I sit - R8 used Vert won't be doing much heavy lifting- and the heavy Horz work will have extra bracing.

On the other hand: If we are talking NEW spindles here - there is no reason NOT to go C. I even found a box of C collets from a .gov lot I picked up in OKC a few years back. I bought the lot to get a Vidmar box and it turned out to be full of tooling. If I had a 1.5" shell mill holder I would be "complete".

Devon

Ps -I sure wish I knew where these accessory heads are for my 12 are. I would love to have a 90 degree head for her. I could just "park" the main head in Horz and flip arbors for a Vert Head! I understand your argument, but I don't see any of these heads around. Pps - A boring head for a 22L popped up on ebay today...
 
Shopsweeper said:
...

I understand that C takes more torque than R8 - but I see that I will need to make my arbors anyway (I have cutters for 1" and 1.25" in my kit today). I can simply make them with "ears" to match up to the notches on my spindle face today. ...
Click to expand...

Knock yourself out. Real live Van Norman arbors come up on eBay from time to time. R8/C-dog arbors...not so much. If you got a local CNC shop to make a run of 'C' arbors you could definitely sell them (I'll buy one). R8/C-dog...No market.

An NMTB 30 spindle would make some sense. The 16L, which has the same ram gearbox and a cutter-head that's based on the No. 12s was available in 30 taper, so that should work. But I don't know that you can buy an arbor that will work with a No. 12's overarm arbor support. Again, C/5V is all you need for this machine. Give the men that designed it a little credit.

Cal
 
Devon,

Like Cal: I don't really get why you would spend ~as much as a whole #12 in good shape~ to 'fix' an oddball
spindle. Some patient shopping will deliver every feature you've specified as 'nice to have' -- in C. So unless you
have boatload of R8 special tooling you're trying to adapt -- I don't see the motivation to undertake a
painful, spendy, risky alteration. Cal keeps mentioning "heat treat" for a reason.

For instance, I'm pretty sure I saw a VN#12 right angle head on ebay yesterday. I searched "right angle mill heads"
and it popped up. The owner didn't know it was VN#12. I don't think that's <"dunno what model this head is for...">
odd among the rare accessories: dividing heads, vises, rotary tables, arbor, overarms, right angle heads and tailstocks
all come up rather often. As often as not, the model/maker info is flawed. So one cannot merely shop "VN#12" and
get a complete view of the pieces available.

On a more helpful note: I can convert Alibre 3d ACIS/.sat files into whatever, including knocking them into .dwg views.
IF you get that far. It certainly sounds like the road less traveled. Good luck on the journey.

I suspect you could drive to Cleveland <yeah, from="" ok="" ...="" pick="" your="" nearest="" vn="" liquidator,="" there="" are="" a="" few=""> --or pick a city with a VN liquidator closer to OK--
make a deal to buy a whole #12 head from an industrial liquidator, sell the rest of the machine back to them,
or --sigh-- whistle in a local scrapper, and still have $1000 left over from the cost of re-making an R8 spindle properly.

--frankb

Shopsweeper said:
Short version review:
...
Some kind of non-sheep, non-goat situation was being used to "sort of" drive R8 tooling.
...
I was thinking about a community generated CAD spindle - I would be happy to shop them out and make up a few extras.
...
I don't think my version of Alibre exports to .DWG natively but you can get there from here with some utilities. (I had to move a file to .DWG a few years back and got it done)
...
Ps -I sure wish I knew where these accessory heads are for my 12 are....
Click to expand...
</yeah,>
 
Cal and Frank,

You both are right about C being the right solution for that tool. I was just leaning toward R8 because my spindle is already 1/2 there and I suspect it is soft already - anyone who did a half way job of opening the bore did not heat treat. That is just the cheap way out of this trouble - and will create more trouble downstream.

I really appreciate you guys trying to keep me from driving into the ditch. I learned a long time ago that not everyone who disagrees with me is wrong. It must say something about the tenacity of machinists that even HOBBY Machinists are stubborn. :)

As for another 12 - I have thought about this. But I am the wrong guy to scrap anything like an old VN. I actually have a moral issue with destroying these old iron pieces because they will never be made again. I can spend some time, some cash or I can kick the can down the road. In for a penny, in for a pound I suppose.

So the real question is to sleeve or to build a new. If I build it will be C. If I sleeve it will be back to C. I'm thinking about making a cerrosafe casting of the spindle to get a REAL picture of whats going on up there. I think I inherited about 5lb of the stuff when grandpa died. I have cast rifle cambers before but never a tool - my only worry is that if they drilled it out but didn't ream it - by casting could get stuck. Worst case I can reheat the whole thing to 200F.

On the ebay right angle head that the seller does not know: I think its for a 22 or a 38 myself. If its the $1k football head - he puts a caliper against it in a pic or two and the bolt spacing for the attachment points is too wide for my 12 anyway (4.129" between the 2 same-side bolt centers). If you are talking about another subhead I missed it (feel free to pm me a link) and I have been keeping a SHARP eye out for a few months now.

Ps - Tools4cheap.net is shipping me some shell mill holders so I guess I am "All In". (But NOT in a Petraeus kind of way)
 
Today's update:

RPI called me back. They simply don't sell blueprints or drawings at all - in a way this is probably better - because it would stop me from making a CAD blueprint of my own - it would be too easy to pay them.

The DO have a used spindle for my exact model 12! I was very impressed with this. But the value that of the spindle to them was (again) more money than I have in the whole machine. You can't ask for any better parts service than RPI is able to deliver - and I am sorely tempted to just buy my way out of this trouble. But my machine budget for the year is already long spent.

The parts are long out of patent, copyright is not an issue because probably only employees of RPI or VN have even seen any drawings/blueprints that exist today (they are the only people with ACCESS to to copy anything today). We are now in the ballpark of my neighbor making a steering column bracket for his model T by measuring his broken part and sharing his design on the internet. He didn't copy any Ford plans and the parts he is emulating are LONG out of patent.
 
Non-update:

I have the cutterhead dismounted, cleaned, and I made a shipping crate for it. I have not torn it up to measure the spindle yet.

I have a 2013 budget (I ran out of funds last year) now and I am going to start looking at solutions again.

I'm still looking for that 90 degree vertical subhead....

Devon
 
i love the idea of a budget. mine is myh wife looking over my shoulder when i am on an internet auction... "you can't spend more than $20"
 
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