How common is it for a machinist (by trade) to not know how to thread on a lathe?

I know some folks may not agree with my opinion on the subject, but it's a strong opinion non the less. I'm in cnc school an am blessed enough to be taught by an old school teacher. I tend to agree with his opinion on what a machinist is. We are taught manual machines, manual math, manual everything before we ever get to even talk g code. And his logic on that is a real machinist has to understand the process. Be it cnc or manual, the process is the same. A cnc guy who knows the process can move to a manual machine pretty easy. A manual guy can go to cnc with learning just code. The core of it is in the process.

A programmer or button pusher is no different then a manual operator. He can do exactly what he was told to do. He can punch in the same code he has every day, or what ever is on the sheet of paper. Just like an operator can turn the same taper he turned last week. Or run any part someone else sets up.

I believe a real cnc machinist can get on a manual an figure it out as he understands whats on the drawing, where to start, how many processes he can do in a single set up, and when something on the drawing simply aint right.

I also dont think machinist are going away. What has gone away is apprenticeships. Now you go to tech school or just find a job, learn a base set of skills. Then after years of on the job training, if you soak up everything you can, you ask everything you can, you step out your comfort zone, and most important you have the aptitude, you will eventually be a machinist. And one would be a fool to discount the need to learn manual work. For repairs and piece work, it will never be easier or faster to do cnc over a manual.

On paper I would say you need to be able to cut threads to be a machinist. But in today's world, a true cnc machinist maybe never had to do it on a manual. But he will know the process and have the aptitude to learn it in very short order. I have every intention on one day being a machinist. Both manual and cnc. At 35yr of age, I hope that means this trade and skill wont die for at least another 40yrs. And if my son continues down the road he's on, maybe another 80yr out of him.
 
Cheeseking said:
Not sure if there's any way to quantify how common it is but you would certainly think anyone calling themselves a machinist by trade would be able to single point thread on a manual lathe. I am a lowly engineer that taught myself how to thread in my home shop by recalling what little I retained from HS machine shop - remember that?? - and from books describing the procedure. It's becoming a worn out saw but true machinists that just "get it" and have a passion for the job are getting harder and harder to find. Im sure many of the people here on this board fit that description even if they are not machinists by trade.
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I certainly struggle with the concept that a "Machinist" doesn't know how to screwcut on a lathe. I haven't had the need for it for quite a while, but I'm sure when the job comes up I'll still know how. I stil have some old 55Deg and 60 deg hand ground HSS tools from when I was an apprentice. I'll be pleased to put tehm to good use , when the time comes.
 
The original post is dated May, 2013, Nice to see someone digging around. WOW

"Billy G"
 
Internet never forgets!
I still have a pc of 5/8" stock somewhere I use to practice on. Never forget my first attempt resulted in fairly decent LH threads
 
Bill Gruby said:
How I earned the title "Machinist" (4 years -- or 8000 hours.)

A true machinist (IMHO) would not pass off any operation to another unless it were absolutely necessary. By that I mean he can do it all. That is old school. Every operation was taught in the apprenticeship. The last part of my apprenticeship was to be handed a print. You go from there with no help. You performed all operations. That included threading and anything else that was on the print. You had 8 hrs. to complete it. Then and only then would you be allowed to take the Journeymans Exam.

"Billy G"
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Similar story Billy G, Although our apprenticeships here in downunder were 5 years back then, early 60's. I was very lucky doing mine in a large toolroom of a decent sized manufacturing plant, typically 800 people on 3 shifts around the clock. The toolromm was staffed by from 12 to 16 toolmakers and 8 apprenticeses.

It was here under the guidance of these master toolmakers, 2 leading hands and a foreman we learnt our trade. Out of the 8 apprentices only myself and one other were selected to do the extra year to become toolmakers. Of the remaing 6 , 4 passed as Fitter and turners, the last two only passed as machinists, their fitting skills were not sufficient, some guys wou;d pass out as fitters but not turners (machinists).

To become a toolmaker in the final year, after having been selected for the course. We were given some hands on instruction of how to design various tools that were used in the production shop. These could be stamping or press dies, special machining tools. cams for operating machines in that age before CNC. And always lots of assembly jigs. Then the final test we would be given a drawing from the engineering drawing shop for a finished part and we had to design and make the tool that would make the part. By the end of the year, having designed and made 3 or 4 such tools we would be given our certificate of proficiency as a Fitter & Turner / Toolmaker.

It was a great training, I'll always remember how lucky I was to have got a place in such a great shop. Many of my friends that were in other shops never had the chance to become toolmakers or to experience the number and variety of machines that we had.
 
I went through a lot to be a Master Machinist. I do not consider CNC operators to be machinists. That is just MY opinion.

I can respect the CNC world as I had to learn to program, operate, and service all systems on CNC machines as an engineer, but in my opinion, you have to have learned to do everything by manual machine to be a machinist. The operator didn't make the part, the machine did and the machine couldn't do it without the programmer. They are a special talent in their own field but I cant call them machinists. They are machine operators and programmers. I worked in both worlds and that is just MY opinion.

I learned a lot and done a lot as a machinist over the years. Probably forgot more than some even know. Now as an old person, I don't know what to do with the knowledge. I play in a shop beside my house and make tools I don't know if I will use. I t is getting hard to decide what to make anymore as I have most everything I need. A machinist is a dying breed.
 
mark_f said:
I went through a lot to be a Master Machinist. I do not consider CNC operators to be machinists. That is just MY opinion.

I can respect the CNC world as I had to learn to program, operate, and service all systems on CNC machines as an engineer, but in my opinion, you have to have learned to do everything by manual machine to be a machinist. The operator didn't make the part, the machine did and the machine couldn't do it without the programmer. They are a special talent in their own field but I cant call them machinists. They are machine operators and programmers. I worked in both worlds and that is just MY opinion.

I learned a lot and done a lot as a machinist over the years. Probably forgot more than some even know. Now as an old person, I don't know what to do with the knowledge. I play in a shop beside my house and make tools I don't know if I will use. I t is getting hard to decide what to make anymore as I have most everything I need. A machinist is a dying breed.
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I have to agree with you Mark. Interestingly one of my old mates, he was a fellow apprentice with me back in the early 60's A few years after we finished our apprenticeships, he took a job as a machine tool salesman, then a fewyears later the company he worked for began importing some of the very eraly CNC machines from Italy. They sent him to Italy to learn how to program them.

Shortly after he returned home as a CNC programmer he sold a few of these machines to the very same trade school that we had studied at. He also got the job to teach the same teachers we'd had, how to programe the machines, so they could then teach the new students. The world was changing.

He often said that it was not real machining, he always preferred the hands on way. And yet he made quite a bit of money as a contract programmer after hours.
 
When I began my apprenticeship in the early 1970's I had to put in so many hundred hours in each of the several machines in the Tool Room. No CNC. First was a shaper, I don't remember after that but threading certainly was included. Ten years later I changed employers, my T & D card got me the job, but I had to prove my worth. I spent four months doing nothing but cutting threads. 7/8 to 2 1/8" diameter, appropriate pitches on a medium sized Monarch. All done in what we called EDT 150, which turns out to be extruded 4150, half hard, ground and polished shafting. I had to mike every thread. At one point the foreman (management, not skilled) pointed out that my thread wouldn't screw into a particular cross-head. Half an hour later we ran a new tap through the cross-head and my rod screwed in easily. Not a word of "Oops". Anyway, times got hard, (the company had a policy of no lay-offs) and they took on what ever they could find. A job came along they couldn't figure out how to do, gave it to me. Seems this part needed to be threaded onto the bottom of a drill string in the oil field. I got out my Machinery's Handbook, looked up oil well threads, set the taper on the lathe and chased the threads, specifications to the book. The part never came back, I guess it worked. Ten years later I could have done it on one of our Mazak CNC lathes.I was also programming retrofitted machines, punching in code to the controller, no adaptive software. I had written code to input alpha-numeric characters, sub-routines I could call up to put lettering on the parts. The point being that we adapt to what we have to do, learning as we go.
 
I suspect a job shop that does one off custom jobs, repairs, and things of that nature would quite likely benefit from having a manual lathe or two with guys who know how to use them, but a shop that only does production runs may not. If somebody brings in a blueprint or CAD file for something they want a hundred or a thousand of there is no benefit to manually machining one. They may do test runs of one or two on the CNC machines, but they want to know it will run and meet spec on those. Not do it manually.

Where I usually see manual machines is in fabrication shops where they are creating parts and machinery. I actually had a shop foreman in a fab shop tell me he was thinking about selling their CNC mill and getting another manual mill because they had more use for it. Of course he was wrong. They had shelves full of CNCed parts they used all the time. They just didn't need to run their CNC everyday to make them. They would run a bunch of parts in a day, and then put them on the shelf until they got low again. Fortunately the owner was aware.

Quite often I can make a single part or do a part repair or modification on the manual lathe (or mill) much faster than I could CNC it. But if I made two of them I'd break even on time, and three or more would fly by CNC. Just this week I wished I had a decent manual mill in my shop twice. It took me longer to write the code to do a job than it did to run the job on the big (for me) CNC Mill.

I think anybody who gets paid as their primary source of income to machine parts can can call themselves a machinist by trade. I'm ok at high speed CNC milling aluminum, but roughing out basic steel parts makes me nervous. I still consider myself a machinist. A self taught, shade tree, hack machinist, but still a machinist.
 
"I think you have to have learned to do everything manually first to be consider a machinist."

I have to disagree. By that logic you should also have spent a complete apprenticeship in a blacksmith's shop and learned every aspect of forging and black smithing before being allow to start your apprenticeship as a machinist.

I do agree that many machine operators are not what I would consider machinists. If they only know how to clamp a part in the vise, press start, and call for help if something goes sideways then they are machine operators.

By comparison a small engine mechanic is still a mechanic even if he has never torn down a big block. The guy who used to run an impact it to attach bumpers to trucks in 1976 at GM is not even though he worked on a machine that happens to hold a big block.
 
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