First RPC trying not to burn the place down

S5rx7

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I acquired a 20hp RPC. When I got it I personally unplugged it from the breaker box it was hooked into. It was on a 100 amp breaker but the wire was #10 that was powering the RPC box from the breaker box.
I have 100amp panel fed with 100amps from the breaker box in house.

I want to do this as proper as possible.

-Coming out of the RPC feeding the machines needs to be? The run is say 75ft.

-I would like to add some sort of safety ish. Put a cut off switch between breaker box and RPC or put a cut off between RPC motor and RPC box? Put a cut off on the power out side of the RPC heading to the plugs? Put a fused box some place?

I plan to daisy chain off the main plug and add a few more plugs. I understand the importance of running multiple machines at one time witch there will probably never be.
 
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#10 wire on a 100 amp breaker? :chemist: Ummm, no. That is a recipe for disaster. #2 copper would be my choice, using THHN.

I think you need a 75 amp breaker to feed the 20 HP RPC, but check the specs from the manufacturer to be sure.

I would use a properly rated disconnect ahead of the RPC, mounted near the unit. Then since you want multiple drops for machines, I would install a 3 phase panel downstream of the RPC and use properly sized breakers and wire for the individual drops.

 
Just as a side note, the heaviest current draws for me are when the RPC is spooling up.
 
#10 wire on a 100 amp breaker? :chemist: Ummm, no. That is a recipe for disaster. #2 copper would be my choice, using THHN.

I think you need a 75 amp breaker to feed the 20 HP RPC, but check the specs from the manufacturer to be sure.

I would use a properly rated disconnect ahead of the RPC, mounted near the unit. Then since you want multiple drops for machines, I would install a 3 phase panel downstream of the RPC and use properly sized breakers and wire for the individual drops.
Got to agree with Jim! #10 wire, depending on temperature/insulation and length is rated for 30A. So from a code perspective that is way too small. It has a resistance of about 1 ohm per 1000ft, or .1 ohms per 100 ft. At 100A your going to loose 20V (10 both ways) on #10 that long. Thats going to make starting loads really suffer. At 100 amps, the #10 wire will generate 10 watts per foot in heat! Which will heat the wire up considerably, eventually causing insulation failure, corroded connectors, and as Jim said .... poof.

The startup current on my 20HP RPC peaks around 200A. It runs on a 100A breaker, that peak is pretty short so it does not trip. I ran mine on 2/0 Aluminum SEU as that can be run in-wall. I'd prefer 4/0 but getting breakers that will accommodate 4/0 is challenging, so the #2 copper in conduit is a good choice.

-Coming out of the RPC feeding the machines needs to be? The run is say 75ft.
If you're doing it with the 3 phase panel, then that depends on the machine current. . If the 3 phase motor in your machine is the load, look at the maxium amp rating on the motor. Multiply that number by 1.25, and look that up in that table Jim linked, find the wire size needed (next size bigger). That should also be your circuit breaker size in the 3phase box. For 75 feet, go one size larger on the wire but use the same breaker.

If you're trying to get away without a 3 phase breaker panel, not recommended especially if you have more than one machine, then the only safe answer is to use the same size wire that goes into the RPC.

Caveats: I'm not an electrician. There are other considerations that this overlooks, like derating for multiple conductors in one conduit run, etc, etc.
 
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I thought maybe there was a possibility of some sort of multiplier/transformer or something inside the the box for someone to use #10 as the feed. Once I opened the box about an hr ago and realized not it made me:eek:
 
Someone ran 2 leads out of the box. #10 and maybe #12. I'll discard those.
 

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I run my 10hp home built RPC on 10 gauge THHN solid wire to the breaker box where it connects to a 20amp breaker.

Your problem is not if the 20hp RPC will run on 10gauge the problem is 10 gauge wire should NEVER be run to a 100amp breaker! The whole purpose of a breaker is to protect the wire from over heating and starting a fire if too many amps are pulled through the wire!

The ampacity of a particular gauge wire is dependent on several different conditions. The max temperature of the wire insulation is one of the big factors. "THHN is a code for thermoplastic high heat resistant nylon coated wire which is allowed for use in dry to damp location and rated for a maximum temperature of 90ºC (194ºF)." So a 10 gauge wire with THHN insulation will handle more amps and can be used with a higher amperage breaker than 10 gauge wire with a cheaper PVC insulation. Binding wires together in a jacket concentrates the heat (allows for less cooling) so "Romex" has a lower ampacity than individual strands of THHN. Conduit also concentrates the heat so 10 gauge THHN will have a lower ampacity in conduit than 10 gauge THHN running in free air but higher than THHN jacketed like "Romex". Stranded 10 gauge also has a lower ampacity rating than solid core because there is less thermal mass i.e. less actual copper. Copper wire has a higher ampacity than comparable Aluminum because copper has less resistance so will generate less heat than aluminum. And so on...

To determine the correct breaker for a particular gauge wire with particular characteristics under particular circumstances you need to consult a code book for the proper breaker size. Something similar to this: https://up.codes/viewer/minnesota/nfpa-70-2020/chapter/4/equipment-for-general-use#400.5

In the RPC itself the size of the starting capacitors will determine the max current draw on start up and how fast the RPC idler motor comes up to speed. So your 20hp RPC might draw more or less amps at startup than my RPC. If you run your 20hp on 10 gauge wire and an appropriate breaker for your conditions and it doesn't trip the breaker you should be fine and you should not have a fire hazard. If the breaker does trip you will need to upgrade the wire to 8 gauge and put in an appropriately larger breaker.

Wire also has different ratings for intermittent loads (start up) and continuous loads (running) and an appropriately sized breaker will account for this. It all boils down to protecting the wire insulation from too much heat causing it to melt, short and catch fire.

P.S. I used balancing capacitors in my RPC between the 3 legs of the 3 phase run to the machine. The balancing capacitors balance the load of the machine over the 3 legs so there is less current on the 2 main legs and more current on the 3rd generated leg. This means less loss in the 3ph cable and the ability to use a little lower gauge cable because the load is spread out amongst all three legs.
 
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There is much timely advice already given. I have been out of the business for a while, much of my knowledge is outdated. In the first place, for the single phase input, the load for the motor will be multiplied times 1.73 for the conversion factor. Then an added 25% for an 80% load on the breaker. If you have (you should) a starter ahead of the main motor, it should have an overload deck as part of the starter. The overload deck will have a thermal device that is matched to the motor. That takes care of the starting load. If you start from a standstill too often, the thermals will trip. A breaker has some thermal time delay, but is not rated for regular control purposes. It degrades each time it is operated.

As noted above, the breaker is sized to the wire. It only protects the wire, not the load. AWG 10 copper is much too small for a 20 HP motor. For even a light load, I would use at least 50 amp wire (AWG 6 copper) and breaker. The actual wire size will depend on how the wire is contained. THHN is a good choice, as it is not only a high temperature wire, but high voltage, oil, and water resistant. As a side note, I have bought Romex wire that had THHN insulation. But that is not universal, it must be checked for each roll. But AWG 6 is the smallest advised. Aluminium wire is acceptable, although I don't like it. But MUST be sized larger for a given protector such as a breaker. An example for smaller sizes is AWG 10 copper for a 30 Amp circuit but AWG 10 Al is only good for a 20 Amp circuit.

Running wire in conduit will have the same temperature rise as does Romex. It must be allowed for if you are running marginal to start with. Romex for larger wire is not readily available, might I suggest type SER insulation. The voltage is not as high (300 V) but is much more common, easier to acquire. SER is what a residence usually has as a service entrance to the meter can. SE if it is mounted in conduit.

Start with the RPC motor. The full load amps (FLA) will be on the motor name plate. Size the breaker and wire based on that number. You can use a slightly smaller breaker and wire because the motor is starting unloaded. It is not recommended but is an area that can be marginalized. So long as the breaker matches the wire size. Multiply the FLA times 1.73 to compensate for single to three phase conversion. As noted above. Then add 25% more for keeping the breaker from running at full load. NEC says 80%, it may be higher, but is not "code".

Next is a starter. The overloads have a number that determines the current rating. The included OLs may or may not match the motor FLA. Size them as needed. Every manufacturer has a different system, but they all work basically the same way. The starter may be operated with simple (3 wire) or complex controls. The control circuit is up to you.

On the output of the RPC, a three phase panel is highly recommended if there is more than one load. For a single load, a disconnect is enough. Fuseable is recommended. Like before, the wire size must match the overcurrent device protecting it. The usual size for a fusable disconnect is 30 amps. That means AWG 10 wire. . . There are smaller disconnects for single phase, but I've never seen one rated 3 phase less than 30 Amps.

EDIT:
In the old days ('70s pre OSHA) we set up a row of disconnects to feed multiple loads rather than using a distribution panel. The proviso here is that the feed to the 'top' of each switch was the full sized wire used as the output from the RPC. Such a setup would have a 'gutter' for the incoming line with each switch fed parallel from there. It likely is no longer a 'to code' installation, but is safe enough if properly done.
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Electrical systems are a complex subject. The information given is a basic overview. There are many details not given, they are a matter of your own discretion. Details such as wire size and type, conduit types, and the like. The details given are the minimums. The NEC requires much studying, and even knowing the language before study. A professional installation is not required, but is highly recommended, if only for insurance purposes. As a note, I speak three languages: English, Electricity, and Computers, And count in 3, Base 8, Base 10, and Base 16.

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Some good info in here. Thanks guys. I do have a few questions but before I get to them I have bigger fish to fry. Took the breaker box cover off to take a peak and see there's only #4 wire running into the box. It runs about 150ft from the house to the building. It's on 100amp breakers on both sides. I have to put a new breaker box in as i'm currently doubled up and out of breaker slots. Doing this I may run new wire witch would be 1/0. That's where it stands currently.
 
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