Cost Of Used Lathes

Bill Rosselot

Bill Rosselot

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I'm in the process of finding a good quality used mill and lathe that don't need much work and will not break the bank. I have to do some wiring to the shop to get bigger machines. But I have found that there can be a lot of price difference between Monarch and South bend. Most generally the Monarch is more expensive it is because they are better machines? I've never ran anything other than a SB. Can someone enlighten me on this?
 
Seems to me that quality and used at a fair price just don't work out. A rebuilt South Bend 10L aka Heavy 10 goes for close to the price of a 12" decent import. I ended up with a Precision Matthews 12 x 36 with the preferred package still have to pick it up but seems to have the most bang for the buck.
 
While they are both good machines, the Monarch is several steps above the SB in accuracy and weight. In the same condition I would expect the Monarch to be more expensive than a SB.
 
Since none of the lathes mentioned are made any longer, the parts can be problematic. There are vendors that sell parts for all of them. On the other hand, unless something is missing or broken when you get the lathe, parts are generally not needed. I've never replaced anything on any of my lathes or lathes that I have run.
 
Around here, the smaller SB's are seriously over priced. They just get a premium because of the name. I honestly can't imagine paying the current asking price for a machine with a threaded spindle and worn ways/screws/etc. What is also weird, is that Taiwan machines from the '80 are also going for a huge premium also, and that was when Taiwan anything was synonymous with junk - they where only slightly better than current Chinese machines. I have a Jet floor model drill press from that era and it a PoS, I could probably sell it for what I paid for it new and get myself an ancient Walker-Turner that would be twice the machine.
Nothing wrong with SB's, they are a standard around here and people do some really amazing work with them. That said, they are not Monarchs. Just watch some YouTube videos of people using Atlas, craftsman, SB, or Myford, and compare the performance to those using Monarchs.
 
This is my theory so should not be misinterpreted as fact.
40-50 or more years ago there were many small machine shops across the land, each had many well built lathes, mills, drill presses and other tools. As automation became less expensive much of the work disappeared from the small players due to the larger shops doing the same work for less cost. As these small shops went out of business the manual equipment was sold off and hobbyists/very small shops could buy excellent used equipment.

Meanwhile the machine manufacturers saw a decline in sales, there was no longer a market for well made $25,000 (adjusted for 1970's prices) lathes or mills and the companies still standing went on to produce very high end machines well beyond the reach of most small players.

Many will say that new machines are not made as well as old machines, this is untrue, a machine made in 2015 is far more well made and useful than a tool made in 1950, you simply can't afford it, as mentioned above, there is no middle ground. High End or low end, there is nothing in between.

The end result of this is that there is no middle ground for the low budget minded or hobbyist, much of the good old machines are now owned by a third or fourth owner, the supply of good old machines has run out. This leaves one with 2 choices, a $100,000 machine or a $10,000 machine.

Companies such as Grizzly and Enco have stepped in to fill this niche market, I began to see this 20 years ago when going to customers facilities that employed a good deal of automation, their maintenance shops would have Clausing ,Bridgeport or Hardinge machines, then I saw more and more Enco and Jet equipment as the years flew by, then none, many do no in house machining at all.

By the way this is not a knock on any one company, just my observations over 25 years in the business.
 
Comparing a Monarch to most other lathes other than DSG and Pacemaker is like comparing a 3/4 ton pick up to a half or quarter ton pick up. Its a different ball game.

For a novice, buying a lathe in good condition is important IMO. If all you can find in good shape is a Chinese machine new, I think its a better call than worn out but heavy duty. If a relic from the past drops in your lap and its in good shape you are lucky. But a worn out great lathe is a real challenge for a novice to do any kind of accurate work on. On almost every old lathe I have seen that is clapped out, the worst is up by headstock, if you can feel the ridge on the ways or even worse feel the dip in the ways, or rock the carriage corner to corner, a newbie is going to have a heck of a time doing any accurate work.

You can always buy accessories later, its really hard to buy more accuracy for a lathe later on, it usually means a bed regrind. Unless someone is giving a lathe away I would shy away from worn out, its a headache and heartache for most newbies. Both of the used American lathes I have owned came lightly tooled but were in good shape. I later bought more tooling . I passed on dozens of beaters that were tooled to the teeth but I knew they were shot, and no amount of tooling could change that fact.


cheers
michael
 
Monarch vs South Bend needs a little bit more info to give a good answer. If you want to compare a Monarch 10EE like the one pictured in my avitar against a South Bend 13" with a twin tumbler quick change gear box with a D1-3 spindle, that is like trying to compare a Rolls Royce to a VW, the monarch is so much more machine. If you compare that same south bend to a 1920's something cone head Maonarch than maybe the south bend will be the better machine.

I have reconditioned 2 SB 13's, one was a single tumbler and the other was a double tumbler and they are both quite capable machines of doing quality accurate work. I sold the double tumbler machine for over 4 times what I paid for it (about the price of a quality 13x40 Taiwan built lathe) but it was in almost like new condition. The other one I did as a foavor for a friend and he paid $500 for the lathe. He wound up with a very nice $500 machine after I donated about 80 hours of labor to get it cleaned, lubricated, and painted. I have looked at many used SB lathes and very few that I have seen were to the piont that the beds need grinding to make them good accurate machines. Most of the used SB's that I have come across just needed to be thoroghly cleaned and lubricated and maybe some elcrtical upgrading. There are deals out there on good used lathes, you just have to patient and have cash in you hand when the deal presents itself.

If you're looking for a Moarch 10EE that's fully functional, thats a whole nuther story and alot more patients and money will be required. On the other hand you can find a basket case 10EE for $1500 and put another $3000 into it to get it to run, Iv'e never seen a 10EE that was worn out. I have seen some Monarch cone heads that were only usefull if used as a boat anchor. If you desire used USA iron, you can find it but you need to be patient because you just cant order it online and have it delivered the next day.
 
Jim Dawson, if you want to see a machine run find someone with a Fanuc Robodrill and watch it, it's fascinating, 1000 IPM rapid moves. Small machines as well, most useful for tapping and drilling as the name implies. A friend recently went to China for few months to set up 2 Fanuc robodrills with pallet changers. He mentioned that when not bolted down they will walk around a bit when they rapid
Have been trying to talk my boss into buying a used one for a repeat job that has a buttload of drilled and tapped holes, they can be had used for less then $50,000
 
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